Stony Brook = Liberty? Not according to the pollsters.

[MTfan4life]

I want to hear some arguments. What is it that allows Liberty to be ranked as high as 15 in some polls and Stony Brook to be receiving only a couple votes? Is it Liberty needing double overtime to beat lowly Presbyterian or beating lowly VMI by just six? Stony Brook won those two games by a combined 46 points. They both have three losses. Liberty lost to FBS NC State, James Madison, and Lehigh. Stony lost to two FBS schools, Buffalo & UTEP, and 7-1 Brown. However, while that seems equal, Liberty is ranked 16 with 881 votes, and Stony Brook only received 37 votes. What is the major difference in everyone's eyes?

[Reign of Terrier]

perception

[MplsBison]

I want to hear some arguments. What is it that allows Liberty to be ranked as high as 15 in some polls and Stony Brook to be receiving only a couple votes? Is it Liberty needing double overtime to beat lowly Presbyterian or beating lowly VMI by just six? Stony Brook won those two games by a combined 46 points. They both have three losses. Liberty lost to FBS NC State, James Madison, and Lehigh. Stony lost to two FBS schools, Buffalo & UTEP, and 7-1 Brown. However, while that seems equal, Liberty is ranked 16 with 881 votes, and Stony Brook only received 37 votes. What is the major difference in everyone's eyes?

Clearly it's Jerry Falwell.

At least, that's what Jesus said.

[GATA_Eagles]

Wouldn't be surprised to see Stony Brook "upset" Liberty

[bjtheflamesfan]

YT is right. Stony Brook really hasnt done much on a major stage and up until they got their influx of transfers, they really had not done much on the "national stage". They really have only just in the last few years been successful in conference, much less out of conference. They had a chance to really make a statement to start the season and they missed it both times. Id be willing to bet that if they had won one or both of their games to start the year (and took the same course that they have to this point in the season), theyd probably be ranked, and very likely ranked ahead of Liberty.

[MTfan4life]

I'm just saying that when I take a look at each team's resume when I'm ranking all of the teams, I see those two teams as being rather equal this season. The Liberty name is more well known than Stony Brook and that must be what's been pushing them ahead. I just want people to take a better look at it. I think Liberty is overrated and Stony Brook is underrated.

[MplsBison]

I'm just saying that when I take a look at each team's resume when I'm ranking all of the teams, I see those two teams as being rather equal this season. The Liberty name is more well known than Stony Brook and that must be what's been pushing them ahead. I just want people to take a better look at it. I think Liberty is overrated and Stony Brook is underrated.

So what you're saying is that polls are the work of biased, emotional humans that may favor one team over another for illogical reasons.

Correct. All human polls suffer this flaw.

[PantherRob82]

Because we've seen Liberty play ranked teams closely.

I've dropped Liberty the last two weeks. If they didn't have good showings against those teams I wouldn't rank them.

[MTfan4life]

Because we've seen Liberty play ranked teams closely.

I've dropped Liberty the last two weeks. If they didn't have good showings against those teams I wouldn't rank them.

Stony Brook played Brown, who is ranked, closely. They also took FBS UTEP to overtime before losing 31-24.

[bjtheflamesfan]

So what you're saying is that polls are the work of biased, emotional humans that may favor one team over another for illogical reasons.

Correct. All human polls suffer this flaw.

Mpls is right. Add to that the fact that people probably dont remember that Stony Brook beat Liberty 36-33 in 2009 but they probably do remember that Liberty beat Stony Brook 54-28 in 2010. Also Stony Brook is working with much less of a base. in the three previous seasons leading up to last year, the Seawolves were 5-6 (Northeast Conference), 5-6 (Big South Conference) and 6-5. Liberty on the other hand was 8-3, 10-2 and 8-3. Last year Stony Brook had a chance to take a major step up and get themselves into the conversation as a possible player nationally by making the playoffs...but got run (no pun intended) out of the stadium. This year they have a chance to finish with more than 6 wins for the first time since 2002. They also have another chance to make a name for themselves as a team to look out for...if they win next week, theyll have a chance to show that they are a team to be reckoned with...if they lose, they probably are going to have another uphill climb in 2012.

[PantherRob82]

Stony Brook played Brown, who is ranked, closely. They also took FBS UTEP to overtime before losing 31-24.

Brown should not be ranked, so I don't count that. I kept an eye on Stony Brook after the UTEP game and still cannot rank them.

[MTfan4life]

Mpls is right. Add to that the fact that people probably dont remember that Stony Brook beat Liberty 36-33 in 2009 but they probably do remember that Liberty beat Stony Brook 54-28 in 2010. Also Stony Brook is working with much less of a base. in the three previous seasons leading up to last year, the Seawolves were 5-6 (Northeast Conference), 5-6 (Big South Conference) and 6-5. Liberty on the other hand was 8-3, 10-2 and 8-3. Last year Stony Brook had a chance to take a major step up and get themselves into the conversation as a possible player nationally by making the playoffs...but got run (no pun intended) out of the stadium. This year they have a chance to finish with more than 6 wins for the first time since 2002. They also have another chance to make a name for themselves as a team to look out for...if they win next week, theyll have a chance to show that they are a team to be reckoned with...if they lose, they probably are going to have another uphill climb in 2012.

I'm talking 2011 bj...what has Liberty done in 2011 to prove that they are 846 votes greater than Stony Brook's 2011 team?

[danefan]

Brown should not be ranked, so I don't count that. I kept an eye on Stony Brook after the UTEP game and still cannot rank them.

Why shouldn't Brown be ranked?

ep 17 - W at Stony Brook, 21-20
Sep 23 - L at Harvard, 7-24
Oct 1 - W vs. Rhode Island, 35-21
Oct 8 - W vs. Holy Cross, 20-13
Oct 15 - W vs. Princeton, 34-0
Oct 22 - W at Cornell, 35-24
Oct 29 - W vs. Penn, 6-0
Nov 5 - W at Yale, 34-28

[MTfan4life]

Why shouldn't Brown be ranked?

ep 17 - W at Stony Brook, 21-20
Sep 23 - L at Harvard, 7-24
Oct 1 - W vs. Rhode Island, 35-21
Oct 8 - W vs. Holy Cross, 20-13
Oct 15 - W vs. Princeton, 34-0
Oct 22 - W at Cornell, 35-24
Oct 29 - W vs. Penn, 6-0
Nov 5 - W at Yale, 34-28

Also, no one has beaten Rhode Island by a greater margin than Brown. Not one CAA team. Not Maine, Syracuse, Mass, Old Dominion, or New Hampshire. http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/teams/rra

[bjtheflamesfan]

I'm talking 2011 bj...what has Liberty done in 2011 to prove that they are 846 votes greater than Stony Brook's 2011 team?

My point is that people are going to factor in prior history when they look at two teams as they progress in the current season. Liberty has more success leading up to this year than Stony Brook does. Another thing that really helped Liberty is that when they faced Coastal Carolina this year, they were ranked and Liberty basically stomped them...beating a ranked team looks good...stomping a ranked team gets noticed...also, Stony Brook hasnt faced a ranked opponent (at the time of the game because I am aware that Brown is ranked currently) at all on their schedule. If they had beaten a ranked team (like say...Lehigh by way of example) or two in their non-conference run up and then had their conference success, then theyd have more of a case

[MplsBison]

Why shouldn't Brown be ranked?

ep 17 - W at Stony Brook, 21-20
Sep 23 - L at Harvard, 7-24
Oct 1 - W vs. Rhode Island, 35-21
Oct 8 - W vs. Holy Cross, 20-13
Oct 15 - W vs. Princeton, 34-0
Oct 22 - W at Cornell, 35-24
Oct 29 - W vs. Penn, 6-0
Nov 5 - W at Yale, 34-28

How do you rank an Ivy League team for beating other Ivy League teams? They don't have any interaction with the FCS outside of the Patriot (very few, anyway).

[Franks Tanks]

How do you rank an Ivy League team for beating other Ivy League teams? They don't have any interaction with the FCS outside of the Patriot (very few, anyway).

They beat Rhode Island by a larger margin than any other team, and beat a Stony Brook team that may win the Big South.

[youwouldno]

How do you rank an Ivy League team for beating other Ivy League teams? They don't have any interaction with the FCS outside of the Patriot (very few, anyway).

The Ivies did play 24 OOC FCS games, 2nd most of all conferences. The PL is the most common opponent, but they played a lot of games against others as well- a mix of NEC, CAA, Big South, even a MEAC game. Of course, the Ivy League went 10-14 in those games, not exactly against murderer's row. It's a weak conference which usually has one good team, occasionally two. Whether to rank a team like Brown is hard because they play a lot of cupcakes. So do other teams from weak conferences that get ranked though.

I wouldn't rank Brown since Harvard handled them easily. I would rank Harvard though, not overly high but maybe 15-20.

[PantherRob82]

Why shouldn't Brown be ranked?

ep 17 - W at Stony Brook, 21-20
Sep 23 - L at Harvard, 7-24
Oct 1 - W vs. Rhode Island, 35-21
Oct 8 - W vs. Holy Cross, 20-13
Oct 15 - W vs. Princeton, 34-0
Oct 22 - W at Cornell, 35-24
Oct 29 - W vs. Penn, 6-0
Nov 5 - W at Yale, 34-28

Because Harvard shouldn't be ranked. xthumbsupx

[Franks Tanks]

Because Harvard shouldn't be ranked. xthumbsupx

Harvard would beat 1/3 of the top 25.

[Sly Fox]

Neither team really cares about the rankings at this point. Neither team can be at-large eligible without winning out which would also assure either of them of an auto bid.

My points is this discussion is really rather pointless. You could pick any number of schools outside of the Top 10 and have similar arguments.

For the record, I see Stony Brook as a Top 25 team in my mind when looking at the big glob of goo outside the Top 10.

[PantherRob82]

Harvard would beat 1/3 of the top 25.

But not a sub-.500 Holy Cross? xlolx

I can play that game, too.

UNI would beat LSU by 50+

[BisonBacker]

^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^
Reps to PanterhRob82!!

[heath]

If you listened to Danny Rocco leading up to the season this year,all his eggs were in one basket.This was the year (Liberty) he had been looking forward to- that break out year and making a long playoff run. Most had to do with Mike Brown at QB......but he has been injured and inconsistent. I'm really not sure who talks their team up more....Rocco or Micky Matthews at JMU. Both Liberty and JMU seem to lose the big games,so Stony Brook might be the favorite to win the Big South.

[van]

I want to hear some arguments. What is it that allows Liberty to be ranked as high as 15 in some polls and Stony Brook to be receiving only a couple votes? Is it Liberty needing double overtime to beat lowly Presbyterian or beating lowly VMI by just six? Stony Brook won those two games by a combined 46 points. They both have three losses. Liberty lost to FBS NC State, James Madison, and Lehigh. Stony lost to two FBS schools, Buffalo & UTEP, and 7-1 Brown. However, while that seems equal, Liberty is ranked 16 with 881 votes, and Stony Brook only received 37 votes. What is the major difference in everyone's eyes?

If you start the year ranked, based on prior year, then you have to play your way out. If you start the year in obscurity, then you have to play your way in. Simple as that. Get rid of pre-season polls, first poll starts at week 4, or just get used to it.

[Seawolf97]

Im comfortable being under the radar . I expect we will win on the 19th by how much I dont know. Our offensive line really opens holes turning Maysonet and Jackolski loose. Our weak spot is probably pass defense which gets careless. Last week CSU was able to throw pretty easily and score. But they couldn't run an inch. Get that pass defense under control we wil be ok.

[WrenFGun]

If you start the year ranked, based on prior year, then you have to play your way out. If you start the year in obscurity, then you have to play your way in. Simple as that. Get rid of pre-season polls, first poll starts at week 4, or just get used to it.

I just don't understand this concept. When considering voting on known and unknown quantities, I just don't know why the former would carry any weight.

[Franks Tanks]

But not a sub-.500 Holy Cross? xlolx

I can play that game, too.

UNI would beat LSU by 50+

Yes they lost a game. Holy Cross also played UNH and UMASS very tough, but they seem to have regressed at the end of the year. You have no idea the type of talent on the Harvard roster. They have plenty of guys who passed up FBS offers to go to Harvard. They have 4 guys in the NFL currently, which is more than UNI or NDSU.

[Franks Tanks]

^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^
Reps to PanterhRob82!!

Lafayette played NDSU and Harvard this year. Both teams dominated Lafayette, and if you ask the Lafayette players and coaches I bet they would say the talent at Harvard is in the ballpark of NDSU. Not as good mind you, but not a complete and total disparity either.

[knucklehead]

I've thought for weeks that SBU should either be ranked it very close to ranked. I think LU is a couple spots high and SBU should be in the 20-25 range. But as Sly says, it really doesn't matter. The game on the 19th on Long Islands is for all the marbles.

For Reference here is the TSN poll vote for the local FCS/LU/Big South beat writer whou includes SBU and drops LU a little.

My vote in this week's TSN/Fathead.com Top 25
1 North Dakota State
2 Montana State
3 Sam Houston State
4 Georgia Southern
5 Lehigh
6 Northern Iowa
7 Wofford
8 Montana
9 New Hampshire
10 Towson
11 Maine
12 Old Dominion
13 Illinois State
14 Appalachian State
15 Central Arkansas
16 Furman
17 Harvard
18 Eastern Kentucky
19 Liberty
20 Brown
21 Delaware
22 Norfolk State
23 Stony Brook
24 Alabama A&M
25 Georgetown

http://www2.newsadvance.com/sports/2011/nov/07/monday-liberty-football-wrap-117-ar-1441646/

[MplsBison]

Lafayette played NDSU and Harvard this year. Both teams dominated Lafayette, and if you ask the Lafayette players and coaches I bet they would say the talent at Harvard is in the ballpark of NDSU. Not as good mind you, but not a complete and total disparity either.

If they don't give money to football players that regular students can't qualify for, I don't want anything to do with them.

[PantherRob82]

Yes they lost a game. Holy Cross also played UNH and UMASS very tough, but they seem to have regressed at the end of the year. You have no idea the type of talent on the Harvard roster. They have plenty of guys who passed up FBS offers to go to Harvard. They have 4 guys in the NFL currently, which is more than UNI or NDSU.

If they want to be Top 25, they can prove it like everyone else.

[Franks Tanks]

Harvard has played essentially the same schedule for a century. They play their historic rivals, and aren't going to change so they can be ranked in the top 25. They are easily one of the 25 best teams in the country. If you choose to omit them it is your choice, but don't expect anyone who has seen Harvard play respect your opinion.

[PantherRob82]

Harvard has played essentially the same schedule for a century. They play their historic rivals, and aren't going to change so they can be ranked in the top 25. They are easily one of the 25 best teams in the country. If you choose to omit them it is your choice, but don't expect anyone who has seen Harvard play respect your opinion.

This is a stupid assumption. I watch Ivies just like I watch everyone else. I watch the SWAC, but I don't rank any of their teams on a normal basis. They have a lot of NFL talent, too.

If you play a weak schedule, people assume that if you are good you will win all of your games. I have ranked them in one poll, went back through resumes and decided to drop them out of my poll. They may move back in, but Harvard and Brown being ranked as high as they are, with the schedules they have, and no chances to prove anything, is stupid.

[Franks Tanks]

This is a stupid assumption. I watch Ivies just like I watch everyone else. I watch the SWAC, but I don't rank any of their teams on a normal basis. They have a lot of NFL talent, too.

If you play a weak schedule, people assume that if you are good you will win all of your games. I have ranked them in one poll, went back through resumes and decided to drop them out of my poll. They may move back in, but Harvard and Brown being ranked as high as they are, with the schedules they have, and no chances to prove anything, is stupid.

Using your logic teams like Houston and Southern Miss shouldn't be ranked in the FBS top 25. Neither team beat a ranked team, but they have been impressive in beating the teams on their schedule.

[danefan]

I think there is a valid case to be made that Brown, Harvard, Liberty, and Stony Brook could fit anywhere between 20-25.

[PantherRob82]

Using your logic teams like Houston and Southern Miss shouldn't be ranked in the FBS top 25. Neither team beat a ranked team, but they have been impressive in beating the teams on their schedule.

I haven't watched those teams, so I can't comment.

[PantherRob82]

I think there is a valid case to be made that Brown, Harvard, Liberty, and Stony Brook could fit anywhere between 20-25.

I can agree that they COULD be placed 20-25.

I have a huge problem with people ranking these teams in the Top 15 at this point.

[BisonBacker]

Lafayette played NDSU and Harvard this year. Both teams dominated Lafayette, and if you ask the Lafayette players and coaches I bet they would say the talent at Harvard is in the ballpark of NDSU. Not as good mind you, but not a complete and total disparity either.

Making an arguement based on what you think someone elses opinion MIGHT be about someone else is a long stretch! If you want to base an opinion on that feel free but it's some real weak sauce!

[BisonBacker]

Kind of reminds me of this

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

Um, he's sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious

xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[clenz]

Here's a thought....neither Liberty nor SBU is good enough to be ranked....

[PantherRob82]

Here's a thought....neither Liberty nor SBU is good enough to be ranked....

That's not an original thought. :D

[Sly Fox]

Here's a thought, make arguments for those that should be ahead of both. Frankly the options are less than stellar.

[PantherRob82]

Here's a thought, make arguments for those that should be ahead of both. Frankly the options are less than stellar.

Also agreed. We should change it to a Top 20 poll. :D

[danefan]

I can agree that they COULD be placed 20-25.

I have a huge problem with people ranking these teams in the Top 15 at this point.

Yeah I wouldn't rank any of the 4 teams anywhere in the Top 15.

[Sly Fox]

Great. Who would you place in their spots? Outside of the Top 10 there really aren't great candidates.

[danefan]

Great. Who would you place in their spots? Outside of the Top 10 there really aren't great candidates.

If I voted my 15-20 would include these schools in no particular order:

Furman
Central Arkansas
Delaware
James Madison
Indiana State
Portland State

[WrenFGun]

If I voted my 15-20 would include these schools in no particular order:

Central Arkansas
Delaware
James Madison
Indiana State
Portland State

Teams more deserving of praise than Stony Brook/Liberty:

Maine
UNH
Towson
James Madison
Delaware
Furman
Appalachian State
Wofford
Georgia Southern
Sam Houston State
Central Arkansas
Montana State
Montana
Southern Utah
Lehigh
Northern Iowa
North Dakota State
Indiana State
Illinois State
Youngstown State
Albany? (There win over Duquesne is probably the best of the three, without looking).
Portland State

So that's almost 25 teams I'd put ahead of either of those two teams.

[PantherRob82]

Great. Who would you place in their spots? Outside of the Top 10 there really aren't great candidates.

Furman, Wofford, App, Lehigh, NDSU, Montana, Montana State, Sam Houston, UNI, Georgia Southern, New Hampshire, Towson, Maine, ODU, Illinois State, Delaware, Indiana State, Portland State, Central Arkansas.

[PantherRob82]

The great thing is, at least one of these teams gets chance to prove their worth.

[danefan]

Teams more deserving of praise than Stony Brook/Liberty:

Maine
UNH
Towson
James Madison
Delaware
Furman
Appalachian State
Wofford
Georgia Southern
Sam Houston State
Central Arkansas
Montana State
Montana
Southern Utah
Lehigh
Northern Iowa
North Dakota State
Indiana State
Illinois State
Youngstown State
Albany? (There win over Duquesne is probably the best of the three, without looking).
Portland State

So that's almost 25 teams I'd put ahead of either of those two teams.

I wouldn't include Albany anymore. Took a beating from Bryant last weekend.

But you do bring up a good point, which further supports the argument against SBU or Liberty being ranked high.

I'd argue that Albany's win over Duquesne is a better win than either Liberty or SBU. And that aint saying very much now is it.

[MTfan4life]

Yes they lost a game. Holy Cross also played UNH and UMASS very tough, but they seem to have regressed at the end of the year. You have no idea the type of talent on the Harvard roster. They have plenty of guys who passed up FBS offers to go to Harvard. They have 4 guys in the NFL currently, which is more than UNI or NDSU.

Not more than Montana. Aka, having guys in the NFL doesn't necessarily mean you're the best team in 2011. Sure they have a fair amount of quality athletes, but I'm sure they're not as deep as the NDSU/UNI/GSU type teams.

[MplsBison]

Harvard has played essentially the same schedule for a century. They play their historic rivals, and aren't going to change so they can be ranked in the top 25. They are easily one of the 25 best teams in the country. If you choose to omit them it is your choice, but don't expect anyone who has seen Harvard play respect your opinion.

Then they don't deserve to be. Done.

[SleepySmurf]

Right or wrong, Liberty gets ranked because they have been a successful winning program over the last few years. Stony Brook has been a middle of the pack team that is emerging and therefore has not earned the right to be ranked. Neither team (or any other in the big south) will be ranked very high until the conference gets more quality out of conference wins and even more importantly has some post season success. I honestly think both teams are better than the big south has produced in recent years and whoever gets the AQ might start to break through this barrier and get the conference some respect. We'll see.

[WrenFGun]

Right or wrong, Liberty gets ranked because they have been a successful winning program over the last few years. Stony Brook has been a middle of the pack team that is emerging and therefore has not earned the right to be ranked. Neither team (or any other in the big south) will be ranked very high until the conference gets more quality out of conference wins and even more importantly has some post season success. I honestly think both teams are better than the big south has produced in recent years and whoever gets the AQ might start to break through this barrier and get the conference some respect. We'll see.

Isn't Liberty above JMU right now? Among others, that's really crazy, IMO.

[Franks Tanks]

Not more than Montana. Aka, having guys in the NFL doesn't necessarily mean you're the best team in 2011. Sure they have a fair amount of quality athletes, but I'm sure they're not as deep as the NDSU/UNI/GSU type teams.

No, just saying they have quality athletes, and your point is valid.

[knucklehead]

The good news in all of this is that either LU or SBU will have a chance to make their case in your eyes in the 19th. LU let their their 2 earlier chances get away. Penalties and turnovers were a problem, but if our All American kicker is there we win one if not both of the JMU and Lehigh games no doubt. But that is all spilled milk and we are done with all the crying. So, since the Lehigh game, the focus for LU had been win out and take care of business on Nov 19th. That is still on track and set to happen. So, I wouldn't go to sleep on either team. These are both very good teams. It will be a knock down drag out on the 19th and the winner will make some noise in the playoffs. Unfortunately for SBU it will be Liberty.