Coaches Poll

[BisonBacker]

Week 10 Poll - November 7, 2011

Team (No. 1 Votes) 2011 Record Points Previous Ranking
1. North Dakota State (26) 9-0 698 1
2. Montana State (2) 9-1 671 2
3. Georgia Southern 8-1 627 4
4. Sam Houston State 9-0 619 5
5. Northern Iowa 7-2 585 6
6. Lehigh 8-1 536 7
7. Montana 8-2 525 8
8. Appalachian State 6-3 497 3
9. Wofford 6-3 489 9
10. New Hampshire 7-2 464 11
11. Old Dominion 8-2 420 12
12. Towson 7-2 367 17
13. Maine 7-2 356 10
14. Harvard 6-1 259 20
15. Liberty 7-3 237 22
16. Illinois State 7-3 203 24
17. Delaware 5-4 183 19
18. Jackson State 7-2 168 14
19. James Madison 5-4 157 13
20. Tennessee Tech 5-3 139 15
21. Furman 6-3 123 NR
22. North Dakota 6-3 119 25
23. Indiana State 5-4 102 16
24. South Dakota 5-4 97 23
25. Central Arkansas 7-3 77 NR
Others receiving votes: Jacksonville State (69); Norfolk State (64); Eastern Kentucky (62); Brown (54); Portland State (21); Drake (17); William & Mary (16); San Diego (13); Youngstown State (10); Alabama State (9); Florida A&M (9); Southern Utah (8); Cal Poly (5); Alabama A&M (4); Jacksonville (4); Pennsylvania (4); Massachusetts (3); Chattanooga (1).


Serious Question here. How the hell does a team that needs a last second field goal against an NAIA team to win even factor into this poll????xnonox

[andy7171]

Lehigh ranked over UNH, ODU ranked over Towson, Appy ranked over Woffy...xconfusedx

[MTfan4life]

They jumped three spots too!! Also, who flubbed to put Wofford below App. St? They have one less FCS loss than App St., they are in the same conference so same schedule, and they have the head to head win. Wofford's record is 7-2 not 6-3. How many errors can this poll make in one season?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How on earth is Eastern Kentucky ranked behind BOTH Tennessee Tech (who lost) and Jacksonville State (who LOST TO EKU????)

[WestCoastAggie]

xlolx @ this poll.

[Woof]

Not to mention the fact that we drilled the Mountainqueers head to head and they are still above us ?.....Give me a break, not even the kool-aid drinking App fans believe that nonsense.

In other news, Barack Obama is a lock to be re-elected according to the Coaches Poll.

[JSUBison]

South Dakota is stubbornly hanging in the top 25, despite having a losing DI record (3-4). They are ahead of Cal Poly in votes, 97-5. Cal Poly is 4-4 against DI comp. USD must have won the head to head, let's check that out.....Nope Cal Poly defeated USD. I give up trying to make heads or tails out of this nonsense. xsmhx

[appfan2008]

How in the world is App ranked ahead of Wofford, ahead of Furman and #8 in the country...

this poll once again losses all credibility due to how high they rank the team I root for... unbelievable...

[I-85 Paladin]

Furman ranked #21. Hmmm. Suppose we need to put 100 on Elon and 50 on Florida to make top 20.

[SpeedkingATL]

How in the world is App ranked ahead of Wofford, ahead of Furman and #8 in the country...

this poll once again losses all credibility due to how high they rank the team I root for... unbelievable...

Unfortunate but true.

[Fear the Bird]

Furman ranked #21. Hmmm. Suppose we need to put 100 on Elon and 50 on Florida to make top 20.

You could probably start by not losing to a horrendous Coastal Carolina squad or a middle-of-the road Samford squad

[BisonBacker]

Neither South Dakota or North Dakota has any business in this poll. Cal Poly should be in it before either of them xoopsx

[youwouldno]

You could probably start by not losing to a horrendous Coastal Carolina squad or a middle-of-the road Samford squad

Losing to 3-6 URI isn't so bad though, apparently.

[Squealofthepig]

You could probably start by not losing to a horrendous Coastal Carolina squad or a middle-of-the road Samford squad

I'd be careful, it almost sounds like you're... sticking up for this steaming pile o' votes. :)

Remember: The Coaches' poll is for entertainment purposes only, and is only useful in determining the average mental competency of the voting school's SID.

[Squealofthepig]

Losing to 3-6 URI isn't so bad though, apparently.

For Delaware OR William & Mary. Surprised to not see more votes for the Rams in this thing.

[WestCoastAggie]

It seems like we need a few more AGS folks working as SID's.

xwhistlex

[Fear the Bird]

Losing to 3-6 URI isn't so bad though, apparently.

Not defending delawares spot in this poll and certainly not defending this poll itself but there are reasons furman is where they are

[UAalum72]

Jacksonville still getting votes after a loss to Drake.

[youwouldno]

Not defending delawares spot in this poll and certainly not defending this poll itself but there are reasons furman is where they are

Sure, there are "reasons" for everything but that doesn't mean they are correct.

[knucklehead]

This poll has many issues, but how on earth did Stony Brook not get 1 vote?

[UNIFanSince1983]

UND and USD are in this poll huh? UND must be riding really high after defeating Sioux Falls on a last second field goal.

[LakesBison]

just an absolute joke, the whole thing. Just end the coaches poll already

[FUTILLURPURPLE]

You could probably start by not losing to a horrendous Coastal Carolina squad or a middle-of-the road Samford squad

Let's face it, Coastal was the first game of the season for a 1st yr head coach rebuilding the program. No excuse for Samford - we got beat.

Delaware at #17 though, ahead of us with 4 losses? Would be nice to see FU smackdown the Blue Hens in the playoffs...as is par for the course.

[Cocky]

How on earth is Eastern Kentucky ranked behind BOTH Tennessee Tech (who lost) and Jacksonville State (who LOST TO EKU????)

How in the hell are we even getting votes?

[TTUEagles]

How in the hell are we even getting votes?

Ditto for TTU.

[Fear the Bird]

Let's face it, Coastal was the first game of the season for a 1st yr head coach rebuilding the program. No excuse for Samford - we got beat.

Delaware at #17 though, ahead of us with 4 losses? Would be nice to see FU smackdown the Blue Hens in the playoffs...as is par for the course.

Delaware doesn't belong at #17 and I don't think any of us would defend that

What might be nice is Furple returning the home and home instead of burning us for $$$

But hey always nice to see random fans making their first posts after a solid win for their team

[GATA_Eagles]

If anyone is interested in some extra laughs...here's the rankings with how much they shifted:
Week 11 Team Team Played/Score Previous Rank Amount shift
1 North Dakota State vs Youngstown State 1 -
2 Montana State - 2 -
3 Georgia Southern vs Wofford 4 1
4 Sam Houston State vs Northwestern State 5 1
5 Northern Iowa vs Southern Utah 6 1
6 Lehigh vs Georgetown 7 1
7 Montana - 9 2
8 Appalachian State vs Western Carolina 3 -5
9 Wofford vs Georgia Southern 8 -1
10 New Hampshire vs Towson 11 1
11 Old Dominion vs William & Mary 12 1
12 Towson vs New Hampshire 17 5
13 Maine vs Massachusetts 10 -3
14 Harvard vs Pennsylvania 20 6
15 Liberty - 22 7
16 Illinois State - 24 8
17 Delaware vs Richmond 19 2
18 Jackson State vs Alabama A&M 14 -4
19 James Madison vs Rhode Island 13 -6
20 Tennessee Tech vs Eastern Kentucky 15 -5
21 Furman vs Elon NR -
22 North Dakota vs UC Davis 25 3
23 Indiana State vs Missouri State 16 -7
24 South Dakota vs Missouri S&T 23 -1
25 Central Arkansas vs Texas State NR -

[JSUBison]

Have at it. Ask Kristen why the poll sucks.

http://www.soconsports.com/fls/4000/socon/FCS/polls/2011/2011_FCS_Coaches_Poll/

Contact Information: Kristen Litchfield - Media Relations Asst. - Southern Conference - 864-591-5100 - [email protected]

[Fear the Bird]

If anyone is interested in some extra laughs...here's the rankings with how much they shifted:
Week 11 Team Team Played/Score Previous Rank Amount shift
1 North Dakota State vs Youngstown State 1 -
2 Montana State - 2 -
3 Georgia Southern vs Wofford 4 1
4 Sam Houston State vs Northwestern State 5 1
5 Northern Iowa vs Southern Utah 6 1
6 Lehigh vs Georgetown 7 1
7 Montana - 9 2
8 Appalachian State vs Western Carolina 3 -5
9 Wofford vs Georgia Southern 8 -1
10 New Hampshire vs Towson 11 1
11 Old Dominion vs William & Mary 12 1
12 Towson vs New Hampshire 17 5
13 Maine vs Massachusetts 10 -3
14 Harvard vs Pennsylvania 20 6
15 Liberty - 22 7
16 Illinois State - 24 8
17 Delaware vs Richmond 19 2
18 Jackson State vs Alabama A&M 14 -4
19 James Madison vs Rhode Island 13 -6
20 Tennessee Tech vs Eastern Kentucky 15 -5
21 Furman vs Elon NR -
22 North Dakota vs UC Davis 25 3
23 Indiana State vs Missouri State 16 -7
24 South Dakota vs Missouri S&T 23 -1
25 Central Arkansas vs Texas State NR -

So they were that impressed with what the Griz did to Western Oregon that they jumped Wofford?! And Liberty climbed 7 spots for that impressive win?

[Bam]

How on earth is Eastern Kentucky ranked behind BOTH Tennessee Tech (who lost) and Jacksonville State (who LOST TO EKU????)

This poll is a joke. I know the OVC is down, but please!

[knucklehead]

It's make up for Liberty. They have been to low for weeks. ;)

[Hammerhead]

Well, Sioux Falls is in their transition to D-II so it's more like beating MSU-Moorhead isntead of beating Concordia College. xrolleyesx


Week 10 Poll - November 7, 2011

Serious Question here. How the hell does a team that needs a last second field goal against an NAIA team to win even factor into this poll????xnonox

[PantherRob82]

Serious Question here. How the hell does a team that needs a last second field goal against an NAIA team to win even factor into this poll????xnonox

Agreed. Their resume in general is not that of a Top 25 team

[PantherRob82]

How on earth is Eastern Kentucky ranked behind BOTH Tennessee Tech (who lost) and Jacksonville State (who LOST TO EKU????)
How is TTU ranked?!

[PantherRob82]

It's make up for Liberty. They have been to low for weeks. ;)

Ive dropped Liberty the last two weeks.

[darell1976]

Its funny to see Bison fans the most animated about UND in the poll but they don't care that South Dakota is in the poll too (except BisonBacker). Get over it, we all know this poll is garbage.

[BisonFan02]

Its funny to see Bison fans the most animated about UND in the poll but they don't care that South Dakota is in the poll too (except BisonBacker). Get over it, we all know this poll is garbage.

Credible enough to make your signature?

[darell1976]

Credible enough to make your signature?

So I put it in my sig big deal, at least I am not going to whine about my rival being in the poll every week.

[Twentysix]

So I put it in my sig big deal, at least I am not going to whine about my rival being in the poll every week.

You probably should.

[NHwildEcat]

UNH is getting the shaft in this poll...10th, seriously?

[darell1976]

You probably should.

Why? I think you Bison fans should whine if USD is in since they will be your conference mate next year. They will affect NDSU's ranking more than UND.

[JSUBison]

Why? I think you Bison fans should whine if USD is in since they will be your conference mate next year. They will affect NDSU's ranking more than UND.

It's not whining by Bison fans, as you like to spin it. Everybody here thinks this poll is a joke. I pointed out one of many flaws in it, that being USD ranked. I did not feel it was necessary to point out you guys moving UP IN THE POLL after coming within a blocked FG of beating an average NAIA team. Why don't you go after the fans from other schools that brought it up and question UND's fraud in this poll? The minute a Bison fans questions it you get all defensive and scramble to defend your "winning" team. UND posters and NDSU posters last year thought this would happen, Faison puts out a weak *** schedule loaded with NAIA's, and fans from both sides of the aisle were thinking that by doing that he would create false buzz for the program being good. Surprised you fell for it, the UND posters at Bisonville haven't bought that dog and pony show that Faison and Muss are trying to sell.

[darell1976]

It's not whining by Bison fans, as you like to spin it. Everybody here thinks this poll is a joke. I pointed out one of many flaws in it, that being USD ranked. I did not feel it was necessary to point out you guys moving UP IN THE POLL after coming within a blocked FG of beating an average NAIA team. Why don't you go after the fans from other schools that brought it up and question UND's fraud in this poll? The minute a Bison fans questions it you get all defensive and scramble to defend your "winning" team. UND posters and NDSU posters last year thought this would happen, Faison puts out a weak *** schedule loaded with NAIA's, and fans from both sides of the aisle were thinking that by doing that he would create false buzz for the program being good. Surprised you fell for it, the UND posters at Bisonville haven't bought that dog and pony show that Faison and Muss are trying to sell.

IMO I don't think UND should be ranked at all this year. The only case they had was when they beat a ranked SUU team on the road. Other than that they shouldn't have. But every week I hear the same whinning about UND when there is a very little peep about USD and the only difference in UND's schedule and USD's schedule is UND is done with 3 non DI teams and USD still has 1 more non-DI team this year or else its identical schedules. Should both teams be in...no. Cal Poly had the only case to be ranked until their loss on Saturday.

[I-85 Paladin]

Delaware doesn't belong at #17 and I don't think any of us would defend that

What might be nice is Furple returning the home and home instead of burning us for $$$

But hey always nice to see random fans making their first posts after a solid win for their team

We are all random fans and we all at some point made our first post. We had our solid win two weeks ago. I just learned about AGS last Friday and after lurking the weekend, I decided to join the fun. I apologize if my post count and team's recent success seems overly suspicious to you. I promise it is coincidence and I have a deep love for FCS football.

I don't know where Furman deserves to be but I do know that when you beat teams like Wofford and ASU who have been ranked high all season and a 6-3 record in a very tough conference, you probably have a pretty good team and would expect to be ranked in the top 20. We have 3 bad losses. Samford, when we played, them, was playing everyone tough, CCU was first game jitters, GASO took us to the woodshed. We are where we are more because of where we started than how we played on the field. The losses along the way kept us in the cellar.

[LakesBison]

NDSU was ranked 1st in 26 polls (26x25=650 points), and therefore must have been ranked 2nd in the other two (2x24=48) for a total of 698 points.

Obviously Someone ranked North Dakota #2 by mistake, but hell knows these idiot coaches wont get it fixed. Plus you have 2 Great West & 2 Big Sky voters fellating the racist nicknamer's./

[gotts]

NDSU was ranked 1st in 26 polls (26x25=650 points), and therefore must have been ranked 2nd in the other two (2x24=48) for a total of 698 points.

Obviously Someone ranked North Dakota #2 by mistake, but hell knows these idiot coaches wont get it fixed. Plus you have 2 Great West & 2 Big Sky voters fellating the racist nicknamer's./

Please site your source when you cut and paste!

[Strommer10]

Just let them have it lakes. NDSU is 9-0, that is all that matters. We play YSU this week and everything else doesn't matter at this point.

[BisonBacker]

Please site your source when you cut and paste!

I'm sure he got it from one of his imaginary friends who goes with him on all his travels xoopsx Remember consider the source xcoffeex

[LakesBison]

I dont need a source anymore, once Tony disrespected me, Ill take anything I want from his site. Big Deal, a monkey could figure out that there's a mistake on the poll. When he gets pressured enough to let me back, I will acknowledge his website.

[BisonBacker]

I dont need a source anymore, once Tony disrespected me, Ill take anything I want from his site. Big Deal, a monkey could figure out that there's a mistake on the poll. When he gets pressured enough to let me back, I will acknowledge his website.

xlolx Good luck with that xlolx

[Hambone]

NDSU was ranked 1st in 26 polls (26x25=650 points), and therefore must have been ranked 2nd in the other two (2x24=48) for a total of 698 points.

Obviously Someone ranked North Dakota #2 by mistake, but hell knows these idiot coaches wont get it fixed. Plus you have 2 Great West & 2 Big Sky voters fellating the racist nicknamer's./

Lakes - there are only 28 voters I believe. 26 first place and 2 second place would give you all of them. So, none of them could have possibly voted for UND by mistake.

[LakesBison]

Hambone, when I steal sources, I dont need to explain them.

[joeybrownerhof]

IMO I don't think UND should be ranked at all this year. The only case they had was when they beat a ranked SUU team on the road. Other than that they shouldn't have. But every week I hear the same whinning about UND when there is a very little peep about USD and the only difference in UND's schedule and USD's schedule is UND is done with 3 non DI teams and USD still has 1 more non-DI team this year or else its identical schedules. Should both teams be in...no. Cal Poly had the only case to be ranked until their loss on Saturday.

Darrel, USD schedule absolutely trounces UND schedule. All numbers back it up. I also don't think USD is all that great either. USD, barring major injuries before the game in GF, will beat UND by double digits.

[darell1976]

Darrel, USD schedule absolutely trounces UND schedule. All numbers back it up. I also don't think USD is all that great either. USD, barring major injuries before the game in GF, will beat UND by double digits.

USD's wins...EWU, UC Davis and SUU, non DI wins NW OK St, and Lindenwood (they play Missouri S&T so that will be win 3 in the non DI column). I wouldn't say that the schedule of a ranked team, and neither is UND's. As for double digits in the Alerus... that last win you had in Grand Forks was what year??? Oh yeah 1985..I was 9 years old. I think things have changed since then like an 11 game home win streak against USD including 4-0 in the Alerus. UND beat USD 27-12 in 2009.

[Fear the Bird]

We are all random fans and we all at some point made our first post. We had our solid win two weeks ago. I just learned about AGS last Friday and after lurking the weekend, I decided to join the fun. I apologize if my post count and team's recent success seems overly suspicious to you. I promise it is coincidence and I have a deep love for FCS football.

I don't know where Furman deserves to be but I do know that when you beat teams like Wofford and ASU who have been ranked high all season and a 6-3 record in a very tough conference, you probably have a pretty good team and would expect to be ranked in the top 20. We have 3 bad losses. Samford, when we played, them, was playing everyone tough, CCU was first game jitters, GASO took us to the woodshed. We are where we are more because of where we started than how we played on the field. The losses along the way kept us in the cellar.

I appreciatenthe honesty and do believe you...you will find out quickly that many " fans" first post is nonsense rambling after a big win. As you have probably already learned this poll is garbage and only gets chatter for the comic relief. If FU had even just beat Samford they would be top 10. FWIW i have them 16.

Welcome to AGS

[FarSouthBison]

Darell, how and the world can you even think that the Sue will come close to USD, when they just barely beat USF.

[LakesBison]

delusional, thats why. this is a team that has beaten 3 NAIA's, 1 crap non-scholly, an 0-9 unc team and a 3-6 bad SUU team. just embarassing, they should get zero votes.

[UNIFanSince1983]

In Darrell's defense USD shouldn't be ranked either...

[joeybrownerhof]

In Darrell's defense USD shouldn't be ranked either...

Darell has no defense. He is a complete dolt. USD isn't that great but their schedule is much better than UND. Darrel, just take a moment to look at any system that ranks schedules and you will see the light. I doubt you will do it since you are a complete hack. Double digits Darell

[UNIFanSince1983]

Darell has no defense. He is a complete dolt. USD isn't that great but their schedule is much better than UND. Darrel, just take a moment to look at any system that ranks schedules and you will see the light. I doubt you will do it since you are a complete hack. Double digits Darell

Their schedule is better, but they haven't done any better against it which means there should be no ranking of South Dakota just like no ranking of North Dakota. It is a travesty that Cal Poly doesn't get the same respect the two Dakota schools get, even though Cal Poly has earned the right to some respect while UND and USD have not. Of course no Great West team is any good this year, and none should be ranked.

[LakesBison]

Indiana State and Youngstown are better teams 20X over them.

[joeybrownerhof]

The Great West does have a 4-2 edge head to head against the Big Sky with 3 games left where Great West probably favored in all 3. Most games at Big Sky home fields. Then again it is against the Big Sky. Not saying much.

[darell1976]

delusional, thats why. this is a team that has beaten 3 NAIA's, 1 crap non-scholly, an 0-9 unc team and a 3-6 bad SUU team. just embarassing, they should get zero votes.

SUU is 5-4xlolx

[Squealofthepig]

SUU is 5-4xlolx

And Lakes is a troll - how have you not caught on to this?

http://www.jacobhoopes.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/dontfeedthetrolls.png

[Hambone]

Darrel, USD schedule absolutely trounces UND schedule. All numbers back it up. I also don't think USD is all that great either. USD, barring major injuries before the game in GF, will beat UND by double digits.

While possible that USD could beat UND by double digits, it's also possible that UND could beat USD by double digits. I'm not a fan of comparative scores, but I believe that a couple of results might show that the teams are closer than you think. UND beat SUU on the road by 6, and USD beat SUU at home by 5. UND lost to Cal Poly at home by 4, USD lost to Cal Poly on the road by 3. UND has an issue with playing at the level of their competition, but the last two games definitely don't instill a lot of confidence that they will be able to beat USD. But, it definitely could happen.

In summary, I know that USD has had a tougher schedule than UND (EWU and IlSt trump Drake and NoCol), but I do think that the season ending game at the Al will be a good one. And for the record, neither team belongs in the top 25, although the way that everyone else after about #15 is crapping the bed justification maybe could be made for a #25 at the end of the year.....

[344Johnson]

While possible that USD could beat UND by double digits, it's also possible that UND could beat USD by double digits. I'm not a fan of comparative scores, but I believe that a couple of results might show that the teams are closer than you think. UND beat SUU on the road by 6, and USD beat SUU at home by 5. UND lost to Cal Poly at home by 4, USD lost to Cal Poly on the road by 3. UND has an issue with playing at the level of their competition, but the last two games definitely don't instill a lot of confidence that they will be able to beat USD. But, it definitely could happen.

In summary, I know that USD has had a tougher schedule than UND (EWU and IlSt trump Drake and NoCol), but I do think that the season ending game at the Al will be a good one. And for the record, neither team belongs in the top 25, although the way that everyone else after about #15 is crapping the bed justification maybe could be made for a #25 at the end of the year.....

Agreed. Neither team should be in the top 25. That is why some polls the two teams are barely even getting votes. But like you said, after #15 everyone is kinda sucking right now, and just cause you are ranked, doesn't mean you are believed to be any better. Earlier in the season, #15 Michigan State was an underdog against Notre Dame.

[darell1976]

Agreed. Neither team should be in the top 25. That is why some polls the two teams are barely even getting votes. But like you said, after #15 everyone is kinda sucking right now, and just cause you are ranked, doesn't mean you are believed to be any better. Earlier in the season, #15 Michigan State was an underdog against Notre Dame.

These last two games will determine IMO how good UND is. On the road at UC Davis (where they have never won) then at home against conference rival USD. UND being ranked or even considered being ranked has Sioux fans on a high; ONLY because it shows progress from our 3-8 team last year. And yes 3 of our 6 wins this year has been to non DI teams so UND IMO is 3-3 and if we win out 5-3 for the year. That works for me. I just wanna see progress not just a number beside the team and with no playoffs til next season the rankings are just a "stocking stuffer", where if we take home a co-conference title.. that is the big Christmas gift for 2011!!

[Hambone]

These last two games will determine IMO how good UND is. On the road at UC Davis (where they have never won) then at home against conference rival USD. UND being ranked or even considered being ranked has Sioux fans on a high; ONLY because it shows progress from our 3-8 team last year. And yes 3 of our 6 wins this year has been to non DI teams so UND IMO is 3-3 and if we win out 5-3 for the year. That works for me. I just wanna see progress not just a number beside the team and with no playoffs til next season the rankings are just a "stocking stuffer", where if we take home a co-conference title.. that is the big Christmas gift for 2011!!

And it just got more difficult. Greg Hardin, UND's top receiver, is done for the year with a broken leg. Wonder if McGill will be back this weekend. Injuries are starting to take a toll......

[darell1976]

And it just got more difficult. Greg Hardin, UND's top receiver, is done for the year with a broken leg. Wonder if McGill will be back this weekend. Injuries are starting to take a toll......

Thats too bad. I think UND will rely even more on their runnning game.

[DJKyR0]

So I put it in my sig big deal, at least I am not going to whine about my rival being in the poll every week.

http://i.imgur.com/sLlP5.gif

I think if you're claiming the credit of beating a then-ranked SUU team that turned out to be a dud, you have to give USD the credit of beating the then-#1 team that turned out to be a dud. With that in mind USD in the polls makes a hell of a lot more sense than UND, though neither really deserves a spot at this point.

[Poly's Brutality]

Can't say that SUU is any kind of dud, really. Yes, they were surprised in their first game, but the GW is stronger this year and they seem to be running the table otherwise. Their GW games could have gone either way; they just got caught on the down side of the score - somewhat unusually - in some tough close ones.