Fumbling the ball out of bounds or out of the endzone

[MplsBison]

Current rules: if a player fumbles the ball and it goes out of bounds, the fumbling team gets the ball at the spot it went out of bounds and if a player fumbles the ball and it goes out of the endzone, the opposing team gets the ball as a touchback (start at the 20)!!

Two of the stupidest rules in the friggin' game.


How hard is this: if a player fumbles the ball and it goes out of bounds, irregardless of where it went out of bounds, the ball is spotted at the spot of the fumble.

How hard is that?!?!? COME ON!!! xbangx xbangx xbangx xbangx

[bojeta]

I see your point, but here's my take on why you get the ball where it goes out. The ball is live and an opposing player has the right of possession up until the ball leaves the playing field. If they can get it at that point, then you should get it at that point.

[bojeta]

Your argument does bring to mind a huge problem I have with the "forward progress" rule. If a player is still trying to break tackles and move forward, but is driven back, why is he given forward progress as the spot? Here's why I ask: The same player is trying to break tackles, is being driven back and then suddenly breaks free and is off to the races!!! Why isn't it dead at the point of forward progress????

[UAalum72]

Are you sure that's the rule? If a ballcarrier near the sideline is about to be tackled short of a first down and 'accidentally' fumbles the ball forward out of bounds past the stick, his team doesn't get a first down, does it? I think that's illegally advancing the ball, or ballcarrier's team retains possession at the spot of the fumble.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Are you sure that's the rule? If a ballcarrier near the sideline is about to be tackled short of a first down and 'accidentally' fumbles the ball forward out of bounds past the stick, his team doesn't get a first down, does it? I think that's illegally advancing the ball, or ballcarrier's team retains possession at the spot of the fumble.

The NFL has a rule on the books as a result of Oakland's (in)famous 'Holy Roller' play back in the 70s which basically states that a forward fumble can only be advanced by the offense if the player that fumbles recovers - if anyone else on that team recovers the ball it is placed at the spot of the fumble, but that only applies to 4th downs and during the last two minutes of each half.

I don't know what the college rule is, or how a fumble going out of bounds would effect the above scenario. As it is now, I don't share Mpls' distaste for the rule. Voluntarily giving up control of the ball hoping it bounces your way for yardage is so risky that I can't see teams building plays trying to exploit the rule.

[NDB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUuOqUIHBZc#t=00m50s

[MplsBison]

The NFL has a rule on the books as a result of Oakland's (in)famous 'Holy Roller' play back in the 70s which basically states that a forward fumble can only be advanced by the offense if the player that fumbles recovers - if anyone else on that team recovers the ball it is placed at the spot of the fumble, but that only applies to 4th downs and during the last two minutes of each half.

I don't know what the college rule is, or how a fumble going out of bounds would effect the above scenario. As it is now, I don't share Mpls' distaste for the rule. Voluntarily giving up control of the ball hoping it bounces your way for yardage is so risky that I can't see teams building plays trying to exploit the rule.

So don't change the rule to prevent something that is obviously bad just because no one is likely to try it?

Come on...


Oh and here is actual play that happened two weeks ago: 4th down and 2, offense goes for it, QB pitches the ball, RB drops the pitch, ball rolls out of bounds. Very obvious that it was just a poorly executed play. The offense started running off the field.

Wait a minute! That pitch is consider a backwards pass, therefore the RB actually fumbled the ball and so the ball is spotted where it went out of bounds....yep you guessed it, it went out of bounds past the first down marker!!!!! First down!!!

Can't make this %@$@ up!!!!! If you don't believe me, that happened 2 weeks ago in the first half of Nebraska @ Minnesota.

[MplsBison]

I see your point, but here's my take on why you get the ball where it goes out. The ball is live and an opposing player has the right of possession up until the ball leaves the playing field. If they can get it at that point, then you should get it at that point.

So if UC Davis goes for it on 4th and 2, Poly LB blitzes and crushes the Davis RB, who fumbles the ball, but then the ball happens to roll out of bounds 3 yards past the line of scrimmage - Davis earned the first down because a Poly player in theory could've picked up the fumble before it rolled out of bounds?

No.

- If the opposing team recovers the fumble before it goes out of bounds, they get the ball where they recover the fumble.
- If the fumbling team recovers the fumble before it goes out of bounds, they get the ball where they recover the fumble.
- If no one recovers the fumble before it goes out of bounds, the fumbling team gets the ball spotted where it was fumbled.

That's not hard and it's the most logical way.

[dgtw]

The NFL has a rule on the books as a result of Oakland's (in)famous 'Holy Roller' play back in the 70s which basically states that a forward fumble can only be advanced by the offense if the player that fumbles recovers - if anyone else on that team recovers the ball it is placed at the spot of the fumble, but that only applies to 4th downs and during the last two minutes of each half.

I don't know what the college rule is, or how a fumble going out of bounds would effect the above scenario. As it is now, I don't share Mpls' distaste for the rule. Voluntarily giving up control of the ball hoping it bounces your way for yardage is so risky that I can't see teams building plays trying to exploit the rule.

They mentioned this play at the end of the Pittsburgh-New England game after Polamalu (unsure of spelling...dud with the hair), punched the ball through the end zone for a Steelers safety.

[Reign of Terrier]

irregardless? seriously?

[BlueHenSinfonian]

So don't change the rule to prevent something that is obviously bad just because no one is likely to try it?

Come on...


Oh and here is actual play that happened two weeks ago: 4th down and 2, offense goes for it, QB pitches the ball, RB drops the pitch, ball rolls out of bounds. Very obvious that it was just a poorly executed play. The offense started running off the field.

Wait a minute! That pitch is consider a backwards pass, therefore the RB actually fumbled the ball and so the ball is spotted where it went out of bounds....yep you guessed it, it went out of bounds past the first down marker!!!!! First down!!!

Can't make this %@$@ up!!!!! If you don't believe me, that happened 2 weeks ago in the first half of Nebraska @ Minnesota.

I can see where you're coming from, but I like the rule as it stands. What if a team fumbles the ball and in the process of trying to recover knocks it back several (or more) yards before it ultimately goes out of bounds, should they automatically get it back to where the fumble took place? What if an opposing team's player attempts a recovery but ultimately knocks it out, where does it go then? The rule as it is is just simpler - it's easy to see where the ball went out, and it's spotted there.

[PAllen]

Mpls,

The play you describe was called wrong by the officials. In college, we have the "4th down fumble rule". That's what the officials are reminding each other of when they roll their arms in a false start like motion before a 4th down play. A fumble on 4th down can only be recovered by the offense and advanced by the player last in possession. In your play, that was most likely the QB. Either way, if the ball is recovered by any other offensive player, or goes out of bounds, it is immediately blown dead and returned to the spot of the fumble, end of down.

[MplsBison]

I can see where you're coming from, but I like the rule as it stands. What if a team fumbles the ball and in the process of trying to recover knocks it back several (or more) yards before it ultimately goes out of bounds, should they automatically get it back to where the fumble took place? What if an opposing team's player attempts a recovery but ultimately knocks it out, where does it go then? The rule as it is is just simpler - it's easy to see where the ball went out, and it's spotted there.

It's just as easy to see where the ball was fumbled and also just as easy to spot the ball where it was fumbled if no one touches the fumbled ball before it goes out of bounds. The ball's momentum alone should not matter.

If it's touched at all, by either team, then the rule automatically reverts to spotting the ball where it goes out of bounds (or touchback if it goes out of the endzone).


That's the better way and not at all more complicated or difficult. I know I'm right.

[MplsBison]

Mpls,

The play you describe was called wrong by the officials. In college, we have the "4th down fumble rule". That's what the officials are reminding each other of when they roll their arms in a false start like motion before a 4th down play. A fumble on 4th down can only be recovered by the offense and advanced by the player last in possession. In your play, that was most likely the QB. Either way, if the ball is recovered by any other offensive player, or goes out of bounds, it is immediately blown dead and returned to the spot of the fumble, end of down.

I'll believe it when I see it in the rule book. As I understand the rules, you are wrong.

[Dgreenwell3]

I'll believe it when I see it in the rule book. As I understand the rules, you are wrong.

You understand incorrectly, this is to stop the stupid fumbles every time they go for it on fourth.

[PAllen]

I'll believe it when I see it in the rule book. As I understand the rules, you are wrong.

Look it up yourself pal.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR12.pdf

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Look it up yourself pal.

http://xlolxwww.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR12.pdf
xlolx

awesome.

[eaglewraith]

I'll believe it when I see it in the rule book. As I understand the rules, you are wrong.

Yea basically, you cannot fumble forward on fourth down. The refs made the wrong call in the case.

[bison137]

I'll believe it when I see it in the rule book. As I understand the rules, you are wrong.


That's because you don't understand the rules.

[MplsBison]

Look it up yourself pal.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR12.pdf


Here is the relevant section of Rule 7 from the link:


SECTION 2. Backward Pass and Fumble
During Live Ball
ARTICLE 1. A ball carrier may hand or pass the ball backward at any time,
except to throw the ball intentionally out of bounds to conserve time.
PENALTY—Five yards from the spot of the foul; also loss of down if by
Team A before team possession changes during a scrimmage
down (A.R. 3-4-3-III) [S35 and S9].
Caught or Recovered
ARTICLE 2. a. When a backward pass or fumble is caught or recovered by any
inbounds player, the ball continues in play (A.R. 2-23-1-I).
Exceptions:
1. Rule 8-3-2-d-5 (Team A fumble on the try).
FR-72 Rule 7 / Snaping and Pasing the Bal
2. On fourth down before a change of team possession, when a Team
A fumble is caught or recovered by a Team A player other than the
fumbler, the ball is dead. If the catch or recovery is beyond the spot of
the fumble, the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble. If the catch or
recovery is behind the spot of the fumble, the ball remains at the spot of
the catch or recovery.
b. When a backward pass or fumble is caught or recovered simultaneously
by opposing players, the ball becomes dead and belongs to the team last in
possession (Exception: Rule 7-2-2-a Exceptions).
After the Ball Is Snapped
ARTICLE 3. No offensive lineman may receive a hand-to-hand snap.
PENALTY—Live-ball foul. Five yards from the previous spot [S19].
Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 4. a. Backward Pass. When a backward pass goes out of bounds
between the goal lines, the ball belongs to the passing team at the out-of-bounds
spot.
b. Fumble. When a fumble goes out of bounds between the goal lines:
1. In advance of the spot of the fumble, the ball belongs to the fumbling
team at the spot of the fumble (Rule 3-3-2-e-2).
2. Behind the spot of the fumble, the ball belongs to the fumbling team at
the out-of-bounds spot.
c. Behind or Beyond Goal Line. When a fumble or backward pass goes out of
bounds behind or beyond a goal line, it is a safety or touchback depending
on impetus and responsibility (Rules 8-5-1, 8-6-1 and 8-7) (A.R. 7-2-4-I,
A.R. 8-6-1-I and A.R. 8-7-2-V-VI).
At Rest
ARTICLE 5. When a backward pass or fumble comes to rest inbounds and no
player attempts to secure it, the ball becomes dead and belongs to the passing
or fumbling team at the dead-ball spot.

So not only are you wrong (and don't know what you're talking about) - I am right and not only am I right, but the idea I proposed is already in the rule book!!!

Figures.

[URMite]

In effect, If a fumble goes out of bounds in the field of play, then the fumbling team gets the ball at whichever spot is worse (spot of fumble or out of bounds).

Otherwise a QB could run 10 yards, then awkwardly throw the ball out of bounds another 15 yards, and the referee could decide it wasn't intentional.

I still remember a UR/UD game where the touchback rule came into play. Josh Vaughn caught a short pass, then got behind the defense, someone caught him at the 12 and poked the ball out. It bounced three times within inches of out of bounds before touching the pylon. UD ball at the 20, argh!!

[Nova09]

based on the scenario described by mpls and my reading of the rule, i think the refs made the wrong call by declaring it a backward pass since it obviously went forward at some point in order to cross the first down marker. my guess without having seen it is the play started as a backwards pass (lateral, pitch, etc.), was botched, and someone fumbled the ball forward (it could have been a fumble without ever having complete control).

also, i know the nfl has rules about if/when/where a defensive player touches the live ball affecting who is allowed to advance the ball and where the ball would be spotted if it goes out of bounds, but i don't see any of that in the rule posted. might be part of a different section or not apply to ncaa.

[eaglewraith]

Here is the relevant section of Rule 7 from the link:



So not only are you wrong (and don't know what you're talking about) - I am right and not only am I right, but the idea I proposed is already in the rule book!!!

Figures.

So what you're really saying is you could have avoided stirring up **** by reading the rule book yourself.

Awesome. You're on the right path.

[clenz]

Funny....this douche wasn't *****ing about it last year when they benefited from the same called during last years UNI game.....

[344Johnson]

It is a dumb rule. The fact that this week it didn't work in NDSU's favor may have definitely brought it to our fanbase's mind. I don't see them ever changing it. It has worked for a long time. If you don't want to turn it over for a touchback, don't fumble.