An Old Topic that needs clarification

[Ruler 79]

I am pretty new to AGS so forgive me as I know this has been beaten to death. I don't understand this AE/CAA confrence re-alignment thing I keep reading about on various boards.

Now you may or may not know but I am an Albany fan so I have a vested intrest. SBU jumping from the NEC confrence and with UA soon to follow is a dangerous proposition correct? If AE Football comes around (I read everywhere it is a long shot at best) then that makes a great transition to full scholarship football for both UA and SBU and possibly CCSU, Monmouth etc. If not, (and this is a part that confuses me, which by the way is not hard to do) then they need Old Dominion and GSU to joint the CAA so they will be able to have a North and South Confrence and UA and SBU will join that?????? if the answer to this question is NO, then UA and SBU would have to be independent until a new confrence , if ever, is announced? I have heard and read so many scenarios my head is spinning. So if I can just re-open this topic one last time I would appreciate the input to better understand the moving parts.

Thanks.

[GannonFan]

Right now, the CAA has 12 football playing teams amongst full time (all sports) members and affiliates. ODU is to start playing football in 2009, although when they will play a full CAA conference schedule is an unknown, but probably close to 2009.

There are 2 teams right now that play in the AEast (Maine and UNH), and there are 2 other New England teams that are CAA affiliates (UMass and URI who play in the A10 for everything else).

One scenario is the affiliates leave the CAA and join with Albany, Stony Brook (and maybe Monmouth and CCSU) to join a new AEast conference.

One scenario, although greatly unlikely, is to have the CAA breakup into either regional conferences (north and south) or by sport (school's with football versus those without football), but this is probably unlikely.

One scenario has the CAA being a super conference, with adding ODU and maybe another 1-3 teams, but that would bring the conference up to 13 to 16 teams, which is a bit unwieldy.

One scenario would have nothing change (no AEast and no major change to the CAA except for adding ODU) and this would leave Albany and others where they are for now.

What's going to happen is anyone's guess right now.

[HensRock]

AE Football is a long shot and years away at best.

CAA Football is reality starting in 2007 season. The plan as it stands now is for the current A-10 teams for Football, to simply re-align under the CAA banner. Many of the current A-10 football members are already CAA for other sports. These include: Delaware, Hofstra, Towson, W&M, JMU and now Northeastern as full members. Villanova is a CAA affiliate member for Lacrosse. Many of the Current A-10 football teams are full members of the Atlantic-10 conference. These include: UMass, URI and I think UR. UMaine and UNH are in the America East for other sports. Villanova is in the Big East for other sports. CAA does not currently sponsor football.

The plan is for the A-10 to stop sponsoring football and for CAA to start. So the current teams already in CAA for other sports will become (or remain) full members of the CAA. Those already full members of the A-10 will become affiliate members in the CAA for football only.

Atlantic-10
Massachusetts (Full A-10 Member)
Rhode Island (Full A-10 Member)
Richmond (Full A-10 Member)

Delaware (Affiliate Member - CAA for other sports )
Hofstra (Affiliate Member - CAA for other sports )
James Madison (Affiliate Member - CAA for other sports )
Northeastern (Affiliate Member - CAA for other sports )
Towson (Affiliate Member - CAA for other sports )
William & Mary (Affiliate Member - CAA for other sports )

Maine (Affilitate Member - America East for other sports)
New Hampshire (Affilitate Member - America East for other sports)
Villanova (Affiliate Member - Big East and CAA for other sports )


Starting in 2007, the CAA for Football will be:
Delaware (Full CAA Member)
Hofstra (Full CAA Member)
JMU (Full CAA Member)
Northeastern (Full CAA Member)
Towson (Full CAA Member)
William & Mary (Full CAA Member)

plus...
UMass (Affiliate Member for Football Only - A10 for other sports)
URI (Affiliate Member for Football Only - A10 for other sports)
UR (Affiliate Member for Football Only - A10 for other sports)
UNH (Affiliate Member for Football Only - AE for other sports)
UMaine (Affiliate Member for Football Only - AE for other sports)
Villanova (Affiliate Member for Football & Lacrosse - Big East for other sports)


The thing which throws a wrench into it is that fact that Old Dominion, Georgia State, and possibly George Mason are all in various stages of adding Football. And all 3 schools are already full CAA Members. So the CAA would be a natural place for them to park a football program. This creates a very large conference and so the non-full CAA members are worried about being kicked out to make room.

[Sly Fox]

Forgive my ignorance in this matter, but what would happen should all of the northern CAA affiliates decide to break off for their own football league (either sponsored by AE or otherwise)? If six schools who had been together were to be part of a league together, wouldn't they meet the requirements for their own auto bid since they had been together long enough and meet minimum number of schools requirements?

I'm just throwing a hypothetical out there ... not one I see happening. But it would create a situation whereby the new CAA startups would have a position and the two new conferences would have relationships with each other in order to fill out there schedules.

[henfan]

The thing which throws a wrench into it is that fact that Old Dominion, Georgia State, and possibly George Mason are all in various stages of adding Football. And all 3 schools are already full CAA Members. So the CAA would be a natural place for them to park a football program. This creates a very large conference and so the non-full CAA members are worried about being kicked out to make room.

To clarify, it's about 90% certain that Old Dominion will be adding FB in time for 2009. The school has targeted a fundraising goal of $8M dollars for June and they've raised over $5M to date. The city of Norfolk just completed a land swap that will allow ODU to build FB practice facilities. The school plans to upgrade its existing 20K-seat stadium to make it ready for football.

Georgia State and George Mason have maintained club FB teams for several years, though neither is even close to sponsoring the sport at the NCAA D-I level. Georgia State is currently conducting a student survey to guage interest in a D-I FB program. Though FB shows up in George Mason's Athletics Master Plan, the school has yet to make a committment to fielding a D-I team. With both schools, there's some interest but not enough to suggest that either is in the stage of adding FB.

It's hard to say what will happen with Albany. They've yet to withdraw from the NEC FB, as has SBU. Surely, the AEC would like to add FB to its portfolio to better serve its 4 FB schools, but it just doesn't have the critical mass needed (i.e.- at least 6 full members with I-AA FB) to add the sport. Unless the conference expands and takes on full-time members like CCSU, Monmouth, and/or Delaware State, FB sponsorship will likely remain an idle wish. As the A-10 proved, you can't depend on affiliate members to provide you with a sound FB league.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

There would be little talk of a A10/CAA football split if it weren't for:
1) ODU football ready to go in 2009
2) SBU upgrading

Id ODU joined the CAA, that's 13 teams. With a number like that...or even 14 by adding SBU...we're looking at a large league. The league could split into (2) 7-team leagues will some ease.

The holdups would be sponsorship for the AE/A10 members and potentially the placement of Richmond. If given a choice, Richmond would prefer to play with it's regional foes of the CAA. But there could be A10 pressure as the AE/A10 members would need the school to maintain 6 or 7 team membership. villanova could be a player as well. The assumption is that they would remain with the CAA members.

It would be real easy for the two leagues to look as such:

NEW CONFERENCE:
Massachusetts (Full A-10 Member)
Rhode Island (Full A-10 Member)
Richmond (Full A-10 Member)
Maine (Affilitate Member - America East for other sports)
New Hampshire (Affilitate Member - America East for other sports)
SBU (AE member)


CAA:
Delaware (CAA)
Hofstra (CAA)
James Madison (CAA )
Northeastern (CAA )
Towson (CAA )
William & Mary (CAA )
ODU (CAA member)
Villanova (Affiliate Member - Big East and CAA for other sports )


It will be interesting to see what happens with schools like Albany and potentially even some Gateway members. I would think that a school like Youngstown St. could be talked into joining a new conference if the school recieved various garunteed basketball games with the A10 schools. This doesn't even warrant the label speculation, it's just something to consider down the road should GMU or Georgia St. upgrade football and look to the CAA for membership.

[blukeys]

There would be little talk of a A10/CAA football split if it weren't for:
1) ODU football ready to go in 2009
2) SBU upgrading

Id ODU joined the CAA, that's 13 teams. With a number like that...or even 14 by adding SBU...we're looking at a large league. The league could split into (2) 7-team leagues will some ease.

The holdups would be sponsorship for the AE/A10 members and potentially the placement of Richmond. If given a choice, Richmond would prefer to play with it's regional foes of the CAA. But there could be A10 pressure as the AE/A10 members would need the school to maintain 6 or 7 team membership. villanova could be a player as well. The assumption is that they would remain with the CAA members.

It would be real easy for the two leagues to look as such:

NEW CONFERENCE:
Massachusetts (Full A-10 Member)
Rhode Island (Full A-10 Member)
Richmond (Full A-10 Member)
Maine (Affilitate Member - America East for other sports)
New Hampshire (Affilitate Member - America East for other sports)
SBU (AE member)


CAA:
Delaware (CAA)
Hofstra (CAA)
James Madison (CAA )
Northeastern (CAA )
Towson (CAA )
William & Mary (CAA )
ODU (CAA member)
Villanova (Affiliate Member - Big East and CAA for other sports )


It will be interesting to see what happens with schools like Albany and potentially even some Gateway members. I would think that a school like Youngstown St. could be talked into joining a new conference if the school recieved various garunteed basketball games with the A10 schools. This doesn't even warrant the label speculation, it's just something to consider down the road should GMU or Georgia St. upgrade football and look to the CAA for membership.

I don't see Richmond as giving up football affiliations with JMU and W&M in a conference. Adding another Va. School such as ODU with the possibility of GMU coming on board in the future suggests that Richmond is will be in the CAA.

If the CAA were to become a 14-16 team football conference, Albany and SBU could be likely entries. Albany in particular fits the CAA profile.

[blur2005]

Between Richmond and Villanova, the only two completely private schools in the conference, I'd say Richmond would be far more likely to stay as an affiliate member. I could see Nova moving to the Patriot League.

[89Hen]

I don't see Richmond as giving up football affiliations with JMU and W&M in a conference. Adding another Va. School such as ODU with the possibility of GMU coming on board in the future suggests that Richmond is will be in the CAA.
I'm not sure why you think it would even be up to Richmond. If the CAA wants a split I'm not sure they'd invite UR to the party after they bolted for the A10. There's no love lost between the Virginia CAA schools and UR.

Down the road I wouldn't mind seeing:

CAA Football
Northeastern
Hofstra
Delaware
Towson
GMU
W&M
JMU
ODU

AE Football
Maine
UNH
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony
Villanova
Richmond

With the conferences playing two of their four OOC games against each other every year. I would have preferred Richmond to have stayed in the CAA in place of NU (no offense Husky fans), but there's no going back on that.

[henfan]

AE Football
Maine
UNH
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony
Villanova
Richmond


We're not likely to ever see a conference like that and for a lot of reasons. The schools weren't too hip to the idea when decisions were being made about the future of the A-10/CAA. This sort of affiliation does nothing to serve the UR and VU, in particular, whose main FB rivals would remain in the CAA. (UR and VU remain CAA affiliates in other sports, as well.) Apparently, there's not been overwhelming support from UMass either for this sort of idea. In the short term, this sort of deal would assure UNH or Maine participation in a conference without a guaranteed auto-bid. What's the incentive there? Two schools who would clearly support it would be Albany and Stony Brook.

It'll be a confusing and interesting situation to follow.

[89Hen]

henfan, I guess part of my point is that if ODU and GMU started football, what's to stop the CAA from basically kicking out all affiliate members? BTW, I'm not saying this would happen, but let's say ODU and GMU start I-AA football and the CAA does not want to have 14 teams in the conference (I certainly don't). The only thing more harsh than kicking out all of the affiliate members is kicking out some of the affiliate members. Remember that the affiliates would be outnumbered in full sports members. I don't know the rules of the CAA (majority, 2/3 vote...) but it could happen.

[Ruler 79]

My only concern is Albany is going to do the same as SBU(which I am not sure was a good idea before any re-alignment moves have been announced).

Maybe UA is waiting for an announcement before they do the same...I don't knoiw. I do know they have every intention of going full scholarship. That means independent with scholarships. The problem is that both of these programs are going to be stranded if AE Football does not come along. I know Hofstra went the independent route and I am assuming UA and SBU will as well. The trrouble is they will have problems getting games etc.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My only concern is Albany is going to do the same as SBU(which I am not sure was a good idea before any re-alignment moves have been announced).

Maybe UA is waiting for an announcement before they do the same...I don't knoiw. I do know they have every intention of going full scholarship. That means independent with scholarships. The problem is that both of these programs are going to be stranded if AE Football does not come along. I know Hofstra went the independent route and I am assuming UA and SBU will as well. The trrouble is they will have problems getting games etc.

Hofstra *did* make the playoffs as an independent, and they also managed to pull together a good schedule in '99. With the Patriot and CAA around, there should be a decent amount of games floating round. Sure, there will be some MAAC and NEC games in there, but I don't think a schedule would be a problem, especially if they're willing to travel to a Georgia Southern or a Montana.

[89Hen]

My only concern is Albany is going to do the same as SBU(which I am not sure was a good idea before any re-alignment moves have been announced).
I dunno. SB would be able to move at the drop of a hat whereas UA may have to give notice to the NEC before doing anything. I have no idea what the agreements are with the NEC and their teams, but most confernces and teams agree that ample notice must be given before anyone can leave. The only lerch that SB could be in is if everyone realigned to the NEC and they weren't welcomed back.

[colgate13]

This sort of affiliation does nothing to serve the UR and VU, in particular, whose main FB rivals would remain in the CAA.

Which is why IF this happened IMO they would go to a full scholarship PL in a heartbeat.

[Mr. C]

I don't see Richmond as giving up football affiliations with JMU and W&M in a conference. Adding another Va. School such as ODU with the possibility of GMU coming on board in the future suggests that Richmond is will be in the CAA.
Those three schools could have gone to the Southern Conference. The invite was there, but they all decided that they would either stay or go as a group, so when one decided to stay in the A-10, all three decided to stay. If Richmond, W&M and JMU do anything, it will be together.

[aceinthehole]

First, I think the SBU AD is crazy. For one, his model for SBU is is UConn!?!? The Huskies are a BCS member with multiple National Championships in various sports. His anology is absurd.

Back to the point, while Independent works better in football than basketball, I still think its a risky proposition. I think UA is taking a more conservative (and correct) approach - leave the NEC once you have a commitment from another conference. It will not take long for UA to "ramp up" if the money is already in place for schollys. UA biggest problem (and I think their fans will agree) is their stadium. SBU is in a better position becasue of their facilities, not by being a Independent scholly team.

As for I-AA realignment, too much is still up in the air to speculate. However, IMO if AE football is to become a reality they need at least 2 new all-sport members that will play I-AA scholarship ball. And I think CCSU and Monmouth are those leading canidates. With SBU and UA upgrades the AE will only have 4 members (inluding Maine and UNH). Yes, it is verry possible that UMass and URI will join the AE as FB-only members, but as pointed out by many on this board AE football can't be built on affilate members - it is a unstable foundation. If they added 2 all-sports member their would be much more stability. The only other option is if the AE and A-10 members create a FB-only conference under a seprate governance structure like Hockey East.

Here are 2 options I see:

AE Football
Maine - AE all-sports member from CAA FB
New Hampshire - AE all-sports member from CAA FB
Stony Brook - AE all-sports member from I-AA FB independent
Albany - AE all-sports member upgrades to full scholly from NEC FB
Central Conn - Extended AE all-sports membership and upgrades to full scholly FB from NEC
Monmouth - Extended AE all-sports membership and upgrades to full scholly FB from NEC
UMass - A-10 all-sports member from CAA FB; AE FB-only affiliate
URI - A-10 all-sports member from CAA FB; AE FB-only affiliate

Atlantic-East Fooball
Maine - AE all-sports member from CAA FB
New Hampshire - AE all-sports member from CAA FB
Stony Brook - AE all-sports member from I-AA FB independent
Albany - AE all-sports member upgrades to full scholly from NEC FB
UMass - A-10 all-sports member from CAA FB
URI - A-10 all-sports member from CAA FB
Richmond- A-10 all-sports member withdraws from CAA FB
Duquense- A-10 all-sports member upgrades to full scholly from MAAC FB

[henfan]

henfan, I guess part of my point is that if ODU and GMU started football, what's to stop the CAA from basically kicking out all affiliate members?

I understand your point, 89' but I just don't think the mechanism exists to selectively expel affiliate members from conferences. It's just not that easy, nor does there appear to be the will to do it, unless an affiliate did something aggregious. I'm not even sure that the voting method exists to accomplish that.

I suppose the CAA could introduce a conference rule that would prohibit all affiliate memberships, in which case they'd have to get rid of affiliates in other sports. The conference would then make themselves vunerable to membership issues for a couple Olympic sport leagues that depend on affiliates. Not a good idea.

If there is ever a split between the CAA and some of its affiliates, chances are it won't be acrimonious. CAA full members and soon-to-be affiliates have developed rivalries and friendships going back decades and, because of their common geography, will likely need each other for future scheduling.

The more likely scenario as I see it is the CAA actually encouraging the AEC to develop its own FB league. The two leagues could strike a scheduling agreement, which would preserve some nice rivalries.

IMO though, there are too many obstacles standing in the way in the short term. UA, CCSU, Monmouth, George Mason and George State could speed up the timetable with FB upgrades. As Ace suggested, it also depends on whether or not the AEC wants to expand its membership. That could speed things up as well.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I don't see Richmond as giving up football affiliations with JMU and W&M in a conference. Adding another Va. School such as ODU with the possibility of GMU coming on board in the future suggests that Richmond is will be in the CAA.

If the CAA were to become a 14-16 team football conference, Albany and SBU could be likely entries. Albany in particular fits the CAA profile.

The point is that Richmond might not have a choice. If the A10 were to sponsor football after a split, Richmond would have little choice but to join due to their conference obligations. Don't quote me on this as I don't have it in writing that they would be FORCED to participate in A10 football.

If the AE and the A10 were to sponsor a joint football league, beyond the mold of the Gateway of GWFC, but a co-sponsored league with a neutral name (Yankee?), Richmond might not have much of a choice either.

But if the AE sponsored a league of former A10/CAA members, then Richmond could possibly remain in the CAA as their would be no pressures from the A10 offices.

[89Hen]

II just don't think the mechanism exists to selectively expel affiliate members from conferences. It's just not that easy, nor does there appear to be the will to do it, unless an affiliate did something aggregious. I'm not even sure that the voting method exists to accomplish that.
I don't know either, but remember Temple and the Big East.

[blur2005]

I can't see Richmond wanting to lose its status as an affilitate, but I could see Villanova desiring to go to the PL. Richmond's rivals are JMU and W&M in football, so they would desire to stay in the same conference, and their geographical position fits better in the CAA. While Villanova has Delaware, they can play them OOC at the end of the year, but where Nova is physically located would work better in the PL. Of course, this might mean the PL would need to go full scholarship, not just equivalencies, to entice Nova. Anyway, that's my :twocents:.

[TheValleyRaider]

I'd still be surprised to see Villanova go PL even with schollies as long as Talley is there. At least, if the stories I've heard on this board are true.

Another interesting thought regarding the potential conference alignments:
In a hypothetical consideration, let's say after the CAA expands with ODU and GMU, then decides they don't want Richmond and kick them out to join the new "America East". That could put UMass, URI, Maine, UNH, Richmond and Villanova all together. Unless I've read the NCAA rules incorrectly, couldn't this new America East apply for an autobid on the basis of having 6 schools that have played together for the requisite number of years? Even by adding Albany, Stony Brook, CCSU, Monmouth, Duquesne, etc, you'd still have a core group of 6 schools continuing to play one another. Or is that just completely off?

[colgate13]

Another interesting thought regarding the potential conference alignments:
In a hypothetical consideration, let's say after the CAA expands with ODU and GMU, then decides they don't want Richmond and kick them out to join the new "America East". That could put UMass, URI, Maine, UNH, Richmond and Villanova all together. Unless I've read the NCAA rules incorrectly, couldn't this new America East apply for an autobid on the basis of having 6 schools that have played together for the requisite number of years? Even by adding Albany, Stony Brook, CCSU, Monmouth, Duquesne, etc, you'd still have a core group of 6 schools continuing to play one another. Or is that just completely off?

Hadn't thought about that... sounds feasible. :read:

[henfan]

I can't see Richmond wanting to lose its status as an affilitate, but I could see Villanova desiring to go to the PL.

Problem with that theory is that VU would be essentially trading rivalries with UD (38 times played), Richmond (25), W&M (22) and UMass (21) for Fordham (26), Bucknell (25) & Holy Cross (21). Not that there's anything wrong with those programs at all, but I'm not so sure the fickle VU fans would support that deal. Besides, a move to the PL would do little to cut costs for VU. Just don't see it happening for lack of incentive.

BTW, there's absolutely no guarantee UD would continue playing a PL VU, especially if they insisted that games be played on the Main Line.:nonono2:


In a hypothetical consideration, let's say after the CAA expands with ODU and GMU, then decides they don't want Richmond and kick them out to join the new "America East".

Highly, highly unlikely. See my previous post on the subject. If UR goes anywhere, it would be a voluntary action over the objections of their donors/fans.

[DTSpider]

Let's be honest here. What are the odds that in 2009, 2010, or 2011 (assuming ODU actually gets a team together and ready for the CAA) that Villanova and Rhode Island still are willing to put in the funding to stay in the CAA?

Between Nova & Richmond I'd say that Nova is much more likely to move to the Patriot League. They aren't spending money like the other A10 South schools to upgrade their facilities. I'm not sure if they'll be able to make up the difference once Towson catches all the way up in a year or so. Finishing at the bottom every year won't keep the fans and often signals a desire for change (see VMI).

[GannonFan]

Based upon what I know of nova's football program, I'd be shocked if they left Delaware as a conference mate. Once they lose that conference tie-in the chances of UD playing at nova are slim to none - every game would be at Newark or there wouldn't be any games. nova bleeds an unbelievable amount of money now, and it would only be worse with the full house every other year they get now with UD. Beyond that, the nova fans (the small number there are) don't like IAA football much even now, and moving from the A10/CAA to the Patriot would be a step down in quality (no offense to my Patriot friends out there but I don't think that's too controversial to say) - it's still good football, but these aren't really IAA followers and they wouldn't know that. I'm still of the opinion that nova does one of 3 things - go IA (unlikely as the costs are astronomical for them), stay with Delaware wherever they are (most likely IMO), or drop football altogether (hey, they've done it before).

[henfan]

Let's be honest here. What are the odds that in 2009, 2010, or 2011 (assuming ODU actually gets a team together and ready for the CAA) that Villanova and Rhode Island still are willing to put in the funding to stay in the CAA?

As UR's study of the subject proved, a move to the PL would not save money.



from the article, Move won't pay?
Sources say UR won't save money with football switch

BY JOHN O'CONNOR
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER Mar 3, 2005

There are questions about the advantages that would accompany such a move. Sources said that studies conducted by UR reflect no significant financial savings to the school if it chooses non-scholarship football. Rather than paying for 63 athletic grants-in-aid, UR would be paying roughly the same amount for players to attend school on need-based financial aid.

Operational costs wouldn't appreciably rise or fall. Academic requirements of players would remain static.

Honestly, I see no evidence that URI or VU are divesting in FB anytime soon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'd still be surprised to see Villanova go PL even with schollies as long as Talley is there. At least, if the stories I've heard on this board are true.

Another interesting thought regarding the potential conference alignments:
In a hypothetical consideration, let's say after the CAA expands with ODU and GMU, then decides they don't want Richmond and kick them out to join the new "America East". That could put UMass, URI, Maine, UNH, Richmond and Villanova all together. Unless I've read the NCAA rules incorrectly, couldn't this new America East apply for an autobid on the basis of having 6 schools that have played together for the requisite number of years? Even by adding Albany, Stony Brook, CCSU, Monmouth, Duquesne, etc, you'd still have a core group of 6 schools continuing to play one another. Or is that just completely off?


Sounds plausible, but does this rule apply to affiliates as well in a sponsored conference? You'd have 4 affiliates of the 6 that have "played together". Furthermore, due to the divisional nature of the A-10/CAA, Richmond and Villanova may not have "played" UNH or Maine every year.

These are technicalities, though.

As for Villanova joining the PL, my feelings on the matter haven't changed one iota. Villanova joining the PL as an affiliate doesn't really benefit the PL in any significant way, and Villanova has little incentive to change the status quo and also has a lot to lose (the Delaware game) since Delaware doesn't play OOC road games (unless it's Navy).

Richmond would be a much better fit with the PL, even as an affiliate, since it opens the PL recruiting to the fertile grounds of Virginia, but it's hard to imagine it going over well with the fans when as recently as a year ago fans had their underwear in a knot about going to the PL and "downgrading football" :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2: (A complete line of BS, but I digress.)

Probably neither would change leagues until the PL has "scholarships" in the traditional sense. Which also is a complete line of BS, since their teams or their spending on athletics will not change if they want to be part of the elite of the PL. If they want to stop spending on athletics, they should drop it altogether. Villanova might (over Talley's dead body, it must be said), but that would never fly at Richmond.

Overall, I agree with henfan - too much risk, with not enough reward. Villanova might jump if they can secure some sort of long-term deal with Delaware, but that's unlikely to happen IMO. Richmond just seems less likely with William & Mary and James Madison so close by. Richmond would be trading W&M and JMU for Bucknell and Georgetown - it's just not enough.

[DTSpider]

As UR's study of the subject proved, a move to the PL would not save money.

You're assuming you keep giving the full allotment of scholarships in equivalencies. However, I don't think that the PL requires this (see Georgetown). This is why the UR faithful were so upset. We do not trust the administration to honor their word (they said they'd keep funding it). I don't exactly how it works, but doesn't the A10 require a certain level of scholarships? Maybe I'm just mixing in heresay with facts on that one.

[DTSpider]

Richmond would be a much better fit with the PL, even as an affiliate, since it opens the PL recruiting to the fertile grounds of Virginia, but it's hard to imagine it going over well with the fans when as recently as a year ago fans had their underwear in a knot about going to the PL and "downgrading football" :nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2: (A complete line of BS, but I digress.)

Probably neither would change leagues until the PL has "scholarships" in the traditional sense. Which also is a complete line of BS, since their teams or their spending on athletics will not change if they want to be part of the elite of the PL. If they want to stop spending on athletics, they should drop it altogether. Villanova might (over Talley's dead body, it must be said), but that would never fly at Richmond.

Overall, I agree with henfan - too much risk, with not enough reward. Villanova might jump if they can secure some sort of long-term deal with Delaware, but that's unlikely to happen IMO. Richmond just seems less likely with William & Mary and James Madison so close by. Richmond would be trading W&M and JMU for Bucknell and Georgetown - it's just not enough.

While the top of the PL is very competitive, top to bottom it doesn't match up the A10. That's the reason why most would consider it a downgrade. You last comment drives that home (although I know it was a location reference, it also serves to address the competition comment).

Concerning scholarships, I think that the big reason is for the 1A games. I believe that for the games against 1AA teams to count towards bowl eligibility the 1AA team must offer at least 53 scholarships. So, if technically non-scholarship in the PL Richmond would stand to lose the 1A games. Those games are a necessity money wise and certainly help appease the fans desire. Playing a non-conference schedule of Bloomsburg would not fly at Richmond with the money donors. The old timers still want to see us play schools the BCS schools like we did in the past.

If the PL is willing to move to scholarships and push the lower guys to fund more, you very well may see some changes. As the CAA continues to evolve from its roots, you may see some more founding members leave. I don't think that W&M is overly pleased at playing the large state schools across the East Coast. Eventually I could see them opting to go PL in all sports. When that happens UR would probably follow for football. JMU may have achieved there 1A aspirations by that point as well. I know we're talking 15 years from now, but it would make sense to me. Especially if schools like GMU, ODU, etc. start playing football.

[colgate13]

While the top of the PL is very competitive, top to bottom it doesn't match up the A10.

No doubt. But it is encouraging we've expanded from a two team league to a three team one!


Concerning scholarships, I think that the big reason is for the 1A games. I believe that for the games against 1AA teams to count towards bowl eligibility the 1AA team must offer at least 53 scholarships. So, if technically non-scholarship in the PL Richmond would stand to lose the 1A games.

I do believe there is no distinction between scholarships and grant to meet need equivalencies in the eyes of the NCAA. A PL with more than 53 equivalencies is fine. Colgate would current qualify.


If the PL is willing to move to scholarships and push the lower guys to fund more, you very well may see some changes.

It will come. No real question here IMO. The issue is will it be in time to be in place for when some other shoes drop.


I don't think that W&M is overly pleased at playing the large state schools across the East Coast. Eventually I could see them opting to go PL in all sports.

They almost did once, and I would be surprised if they did it for real in the future. But like getting UR, we NEED football scholarships to do so. And having a continued increase in our basketball play will SURELY help.

[blukeys]

Based upon what I know of nova's football program, I'd be shocked if they left Delaware as a conference mate. Once they lose that conference tie-in the chances of UD playing at nova are slim to none - every game would be at Newark or there wouldn't be any games. nova bleeds an unbelievable amount of money now, and it would only be worse with the full house every other year they get now with UD. Beyond that, the nova fans (the small number there are) don't like IAA football much even now, and moving from the A10/CAA to the Patriot would be a step down in quality (no offense to my Patriot friends out there but I don't think that's too controversial to say) - it's still good football, but these aren't really IAA followers and they wouldn't know that. I'm still of the opinion that nova does one of 3 things - go IA (unlikely as the costs are astronomical for them), stay with Delaware wherever they are (most likely IMO), or drop football altogether (hey, they've done it before).


I don't see either Richmond or Nova making changes, although I appreciate the fact that at this time of year speculation is about all we have to do.

I will add to GF's observations that Nova will not make a move that is "perceived" as a step back. The Nova fan base though small is very proud. (some would say arrogant but I will avoid that characterization in deference to Mrs. Gannonfan)

[GannonFan]

If the PL is willing to move to scholarships and push the lower guys to fund more, you very well may see some changes. As the CAA continues to evolve from its roots, you may see some more founding members leave. I don't think that W&M is overly pleased at playing the large state schools across the East Coast. Eventually I could see them opting to go PL in all sports. When that happens UR would probably follow for football. JMU may have achieved there 1A aspirations by that point as well. I know we're talking 15 years from now, but it would make sense to me. Especially if schools like GMU, ODU, etc. start playing football.

Trying not to speak too much for W&M, but at least right now I get the impression that the love where they are and who they are playing - the games they have with Delaware, JMU, and Richmond are huge games for them despite the first two schools being state schools. Obviously if things change in the future where these schools go their separate ways then things could change, but I get the impression that W&M is extremely happy being where they are today playing schools they currently have on their schedule.