Hypothetical playoff situation

[MplsBison]

Lets say Montana's schedule/results are the following:

non-conf at full scholarship FCS - WIN
non-conf vs DII - WIN
non-conf vs non-scholarship FCS - WIN

Big Sky: 6-2

Overall: 9-2


You would expect Montana to be selected at large to the FCS playoffs in this scenario. But hold on just a second:

- the DII win obviously doesn't count

- should the win vs. a non-scholarship FCS school count?


If not, then Montana only has 7 DI wins that count towards the playoffs, which puts them right smack in the middle of the pool of teams at the end of every year having 7 wins that think they should get in.

So the question is: should Montana get a "free-ride" by being allowed to claim an 8th DI win vs the non-scholarship team or should they only be allowed to claim 7 DI wins like the other schools that played 11 full scholarship DI teams?

[NHwildEcat]

They would be in. Does the fact the 3rd win is against a non-scholly school? I didn't think it would matter so long as they are FCS level.

[eaglewraith]

8 D1 wins is 8 D1 wins.

[MplsBison]

They would be in. Does the fact the 3rd win is against a non-scholly school? I didn't think it would matter so long as they are FCS level.

**SHOULD** that be the way it is?

That's what I'm asking for here. I'm not asking you to explain the rules as they exist today, I already know them.

[MplsBison]

8 D1 wins is 8 D1 wins.

Would it also be acceptable to you if Montana had 3 non-conference wins against non-scholarship FCS teams and only finished 5-3 in the Big Sky?

Is it still '8 DI wins is 8 DI wins' ??

[DJKyR0]

**SHOULD** that be the way it is?

That's what I'm asking for here. I'm not asking you to explain the rules as they exist today, I already know them.

Fundamentally speaking, Division-I status goes for more than football and implies superior funding to athletics than a D-II or lower counterpart. That hypothetically gives even a non-scholarship team more resources to recruit and train athletes than a lower-division program (barring unique cases like NDSU when we were D-II). Being D-I costs money, and beating that money should count as a D-I win.

8 DI wins is 8 DI wins.

[NHwildEcat]

**SHOULD** that be the way it is?

That's what I'm asking for here. I'm not asking you to explain the rules as they exist today, I already know them.

There is little room for opinions regarding this. Either you fit the mold of what is perceived to be a playoff team or you don't. Based on your example, yes they are in no doubt. BUT, if you start throwing out other scenarios where there are 3 teams with this similar situation and only 1 spot left, then it opens up room for discussion.

[401ks]

xdeadhorsex xdeadhorsex

[HensRock]

Should - Shouldn't
Doesn't matter. It DOES count.

[bluehenbillk]

It's a D-1 win, that's like saying wins versus the Patriot or NEC don't count either.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

I posted in the other thread about this before I saw this thread, so I am going to say pretty much the same thing. The way I see it, DI is DI and if the NCAA recognizes a school as being DI, then that's how the game should be counted. Where I think the issue becomes a factor is when the selection committee compares two teams with the same record. I think a school who plays more games against DI scholarship schools would get in over a school who might have one or more non-scholarship wins. Basically, a team who is perceived to have a more difficult schedule would have a better chance to get a playoff spot.

[OL FU]

Fundamentally speaking, Division-I status goes for more than football and implies superior funding to athletics than a D-II or lower counterpart. That hypothetically gives even a non-scholarship team more resources to recruit and train athletes than a lower-division program (barring unique cases like NDSU when we were D-II). Being D-I costs money, and beating that money should count as a D-I win.

8 DI wins is 8 DI wins.

If that were the case then one team in the PFL would get an invite most years, wouldn't they?

I certainly think a DI game should count, but I think one would have to look at the number of non-scholly wins in the record.

[MplsBison]

Guys is it really that hard to put yourself in a hypothetical scenario where your team is the last team out of the playoff bracket after a hard fought season with 7 wins over quality, scholarship teams and the last team in the bracket had 3 wins over FCS non-scholarship teams?

Would you really be so dismissive of such a scenario? I would hope not, if you're really a fan of your team.


The bottom line question:
Does a team with 8 wins, 3 of which are over non-scholarship FCS teams, deserve to get into the playoffs over a team that has 7 wins, all of which are over full scholarship FCS teams?

[MplsBison]

Fundamentally speaking, Division-I status goes for more than football and implies superior funding to athletics than a D-II or lower counterpart. That hypothetically gives even a non-scholarship team more resources to recruit and train athletes than a lower-division program (barring unique cases like NDSU when we were D-II). Being D-I costs money, and beating that money should count as a D-I win.

8 DI wins is 8 DI wins.

I'm struggling to understand how you can be so contradictory with a single sentence. "Being D-I costs money, and beating that money should count as a D-I win." Right....I forgot how truly expensive being ***non-scholarship*** is these days.

These teams literally put in as little money as they can get away with, yet they still have the gall to call themselves "DI football". I would bet that there are DIII teams with larger football budgets (excluding travel) than every Pioneer team.

How in the fricking world can you read that and then say "Being D-I costs money, and beating that money should count as a D-I win." Absolutely incredible.

[GoGriz1]

I'm confused. Are you using Montana rhetorically in this scenario? Montana doesn't play a non-scholarship program this year. They do play a DII and an SEC school, but their other non-conference game was a win against Cal Poly. I think the Mustang players would be mighty surprised to hear they're not getting aid this year.... xeyebrowx

[MplsBison]

I'm confused. Are you using Montana rhetorically in this scenario? Montana doesn't play a non-scholarship program this year. They do play a DII and an SEC school, but their other non-conference game was a win against Cal Poly. I think the Mustang players would be mighty surprised to hear they're not getting aid this year.... xeyebrowx

It was from another thread that unfortunately got taken over. Just ignore the Montana part.

[WrenFGun]

8 D1 wins is 8 D1 wins.

Yes. All that needs to be said. Montana would have enough quality wins to get in.

[MplsBison]

Yes. All that needs to be said. Montana would have enough quality wins to get in.

3 wins vs. non-scholarship FCS gets them in the playoffs while New Hampshire sits at home for Thanksgiving, and you could care less?

Don't try to BS me here..

[GoGriz1]

Why are we discussing this? Has it ever occurred? Has there ever been a playoff team with 3 wins against non-scholly FCS teams??

The bottom line in any event is that the games count. That said, any team that goes 6-2 in the Big Sky (or any other power conference) is likely headed to the playoffs no matter who they played in the non-conference schedule.

Can we talk about something that has a more-likely chance of occurring...say, an astroid hitting the Fargo Dome?

[MplsBison]

GoGriz - why does this conversation make you so uncomfortable? is it because you're scared that Montana might actually be in the position where scheduling non-scholarship FCS schools could land them outside of the playoffs one day?

It's absolutely paramount that the correct position be determined. That couldn't be any more self-evidently obvious: the playoffs are at stake! The current position is that non-scholarship DI wins count and an unlimited number of them. I challenge that position as wrong.



What if I offer a compromise: any FCS team may count at most ONE win against a non-scholarship DI team towards the number of eligible wins, per year. Is that acceptable? Is there anyone who can find fault with that and explain their position other than "that thar ain't the way we done been doin' it" ?

[eaglewraith]

I think I miss the Turf vs Grass arguments.

[FCS Go!]

I think I miss the Turf vs Grass arguments.

There's a difference?

[NHwildEcat]

Guys is it really that hard to put yourself in a hypothetical scenario where your team is the last team out of the playoff bracket after a hard fought season with 7 wins over quality, scholarship teams and the last team in the bracket had 3 wins over FCS non-scholarship teams?

Would you really be so dismissive of such a scenario? I would hope not, if you're really a fan of your team.


The bottom line question:
Does a team with 8 wins, 3 of which are over non-scholarship FCS teams, deserve to get into the playoffs over a team that has 7 wins, all of which are over full scholarship FCS teams?

OK...put that way...no, they don't deserve to be in. The 7 win team in that case would have had a higher quality of win versus the 8 win team.

[Squealofthepig]

I'm confused. Are you using Montana rhetorically in this scenario? Montana doesn't play a non-scholarship program this year. They do play a DII and an SEC school, but their other non-conference game was a win against Cal Poly. I think the Mustang players would be mighty surprised to hear they're not getting aid this year.... xeyebrowx

He's trying to inject a false reality to buttress his adderall-laden brain. It's OK, it's probably just chattownmocs screwing with us.

[Twentysix]

Why are we discussing this? Has it ever occurred? Has there ever been a playoff team with 3 wins against non-scholly FCS teams??

The bottom line in any event is that the games count. That said, any team that goes 6-2 in the Big Sky (or any other power conference) is likely headed to the playoffs no matter who they played in the non-conference schedule.

Can we talk about something that has a more-likely chance of occurring...say, an astroid hitting the Fargo Dome?

The power of the big 3 creates an invisible barrier that protects the FD from astroids. Next?

[Squealofthepig]

The power of the big 3 creates an invisible barrier that protects the FD from astroids. Next?

You know, if you can't even spell "asteroids" it is really difficult to take you seriously. Just saying.

This is a thread based on one Bison fan's... loose association with reality, after all.

[Twentysix]

You know, if you can't even spell "asteroids" it is really difficult to take you seriously. Just saying.

This is a thread based on one Bison fan's... loose association with reality, after all.

Why wouldnt you take that seriously? Do I not look serious to you? I would like you to reference the quoted post, and notice I was saying it would protect it from what he said would hit it. Idk what the fk an astroid is, but the barrier protects from them.


say, an astroid hitting the Fargo Dome?

[Squealofthepig]

Why wouldnt you take that seriously? Do I not look serious to you? Space nerd.

I really have no answer to that, other than to loan you an apostrophe. :)

[Twentysix]

I really have no answer to that, other than to loan you an apostrophe. :)

I felt calling you a space nerd was harsh. You should reread it.

[Squealofthepig]

I felt calling you a space nerd was harsh. You should reread it.

See? Even fan-bases I generally disagree with can have good, well-reasoned counters. Besides, I can handle harsh, and good luck later today for the Bison!

[CFBfan]

Guys is it really that hard to put yourself in a hypothetical scenario where your team is the last team out of the playoff bracket after a hard fought season with 7 wins over quality, scholarship teams and the last team in the bracket had 3 wins over FCS non-scholarship teams?

Would you really be so dismissive of such a scenario? I would hope not, if you're really a fan of your team.


The bottom line question:
Does a team with 8 wins, 3 of which are over non-scholarship FCS teams, deserve to get into the playoffs over a team that has 7 wins, all of which are over full scholarship FCS teams?

A Great hypothetical theory is one where you are banned from posting mpls!!

[MplsBison]

OK...put that way...no, they don't deserve to be in. The 7 win team in that case would have had a higher quality of win versus the 8 win team.

Thank you - I know that everyone would feel exactly the same if it was their team left out of the playoffs.

A rule needs to be put in place to prevent this from happening.

[CopperCat]

Of course they get in for one simple reason: money. UM is a gold mine for the NCAA.

[MplsBison]

I'm sorry I ever used Montana in the example. It was from another thread.

I mistakenly assumed the average AGS poster had enough intellect to see that it was a general scenario that could apply to any scholarship FCS school as well as being able to convert the scenario to the point of view where their team was left out of the playoffs.

Foolish me.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I ask the Board's forgiveness for rising to the MB bait, but ... New Hampshire fattened its win count up on those Patsys from Lehigh and Holy Cross. Do you think these two games, one won in OT on the road and the other a game til the end at home were somehow less than a win? Ask the UNH players if they coasted through those games. No one else outside the Patriot League would schedule those two programs in the same season. New Hampshire no doubt feels a bit more satisfied than you might think for whuppin up on those non-scholly pushovers...

These are Division I schools that play football. They would play in either the FBS or the FCS. Nowhere else. That is the way the NCAA has it. I thought strength of schedule/RPI/GPI is a much more direct measure of performance, and performance is what puts at-large teams into the playoffs. Somehow I do not feel that UNH has done anything other than enhance their standing among potential at-large teams in the tournament, should they not win the CAA,with the selection of two schools anchored among the 'second-class' you might create.

There is a difference for those schools in the NEC, Patriot and Pioneer that would fancy a run at the playoffs. But let's tell the tale from the perspective of two Bison- North Dakota State and Bucknell. Your Bison played Minnesota. Bucknell played Marist. Both won, but methinks you need not count scholarships to figure out who might have a stronger case for an at-large bid come November. The NEC, Patriot, and Pioneer League schools know they must construct tough OOC schedules if they want any shot of an at-large or drawing a bye in the first round. Those schools are,if they truly have low scholarship/no scholarship counts, ineligible to beat up on the Gophers or any other FBS team. That FBS bounce to their RPI/GPI/SOS is unlikely , as they wont count toward bowl eligibility, so they won't get scheduled by an FBS program. You would get that bounce even if your Bison lost to Minnesota, though it could have been one less D-1 win. Still your Bison will be queuing up for an at-large bid,barring a collapse in the MVFC, where mine must certainly win the Patriot League title and take the AQ, and certainly play in the first round on the road. (If my Bison achieve that unlikely height, please make it a day's drive from Albuquerque that first round game.)

Now, the MEAC and SWAC schools are scholarship programs. How do they figure in your althletic merit-aid-ocracy? You really must sit up nights seething about the amount of scholarship money being withheld from deserving young men. These 'second-class' schools,mostly private, give financial aid to their football players based on need, but you know all this. You just gotta look for a new place to saw on these conferences, that somehow offend your sensibilities. This indeed is the tyranny of the NCAA. Division I schools play Division 1 football and the FCS is where we play ball.

[Houndawg]

There's a difference?

xconfusedx

I don't know, I've never smoked turf...

[FCS Go!]

xconfusedx

I don't know, I've never smoked turf...

Sorry, I was referring to the futility and frustration of the two threads (turf/grass & non-scholly/non-counter). I'm happy to hear that you have not attempted to smoke turf as I am sure it would irreparably harm your lungs and damage your brain function.

[aceinthehole]

I ask the Board's forgiveness for rising to the MB bait, but ... New Hampshire fattened its win count up on those Patsys from Lehigh and Holy Cross. Do you think these two games, one won in OT on the road and the other a game til the end at home were somehow less than a win? Ask the UNH players if they coasted through those games. No one else outside the Patriot League would schedule those two programs in the same season. New Hampshire no doubt feels a bit more satisfied than you might think for whuppin up on those non-scholly pushovers...

These are Division I schools that play football. They would play in either the FBS or the FCS. Nowhere else. That is the way the NCAA has it. I thought strength of schedule/RPI/GPI is a much more direct measure of performance, and performance is what puts at-large teams into the playoffs. Somehow I do not feel that UNH has done anything other than enhance their standing among potential at-large teams in the tournament, should they not win the CAA,with the selection of two schools anchored among the 'second-class' you might create.

There is a difference for those schools in the NEC, Patriot and Pioneer that would fancy a run at the playoffs. But let's tell the tale from the perspective of two Bison- North Dakota State and Bucknell. Your Bison played Minnesota. Bucknell played Marist. Both won, but methinks you need not count scholarships to figure out who might have a stronger case for an at-large bid come November. The NEC, Patriot, and Pioneer League schools know they must construct tough OOC schedules if they want any shot of an at-large or drawing a bye in the first round. Those schools are,if they truly have low scholarship/no scholarship counts, ineligible to beat up on the Gophers or any other FBS team. That FBS bounce to their RPI/GPI/SOS is unlikely , as they wont count toward bowl eligibility, so they won't get scheduled by an FBS program. You would get that bounce even if your Bison lost to Minnesota, though it could have been one less D-1 win. Still your Bison will be queuing up for an at-large bid,barring a collapse in the MVFC, where mine must certainly win the Patriot League title and take the AQ, and certainly play in the first round on the road. (If my Bison achieve that unlikely height, please make it a day's drive from Albuquerque that first round game.)

Now, the MEAC and SWAC schools are scholarship programs. How do they figure in your althletic merit-aid-ocracy? You really must sit up nights seething about the amount of scholarship money being withheld from deserving young men. These 'second-class' schools,mostly private, give financial aid to their football players based on need, but you know all this. You just gotta look for a new place to saw on these conferences, that somehow offend your sensibilities. This indeed is the tyranny of the NCAA. Division I schools play Division 1 football and the FCS is where we play ball.

Great post!

[MplsBison]

I ask the Board's forgiveness for rising to the MB bait, but ... New Hampshire fattened its win count up on those Patsys from Lehigh and Holy Cross. Do you think these two games, one won in OT on the road and the other a game til the end at home were somehow less than a win? Ask the UNH players if they coasted through those games. No one else outside the Patriot League would schedule those two programs in the same season. New Hampshire no doubt feels a bit more satisfied than you might think for whuppin up on those non-scholly pushovers...

These are Division I schools that play football. They would play in either the FBS or the FCS. Nowhere else. That is the way the NCAA has it. I thought strength of schedule/RPI/GPI is a much more direct measure of performance, and performance is what puts at-large teams into the playoffs. Somehow I do not feel that UNH has done anything other than enhance their standing among potential at-large teams in the tournament, should they not win the CAA,with the selection of two schools anchored among the 'second-class' you might create.

There is a difference for those schools in the NEC, Patriot and Pioneer that would fancy a run at the playoffs. But let's tell the tale from the perspective of two Bison- North Dakota State and Bucknell. Your Bison played Minnesota. Bucknell played Marist. Both won, but methinks you need not count scholarships to figure out who might have a stronger case for an at-large bid come November. The NEC, Patriot, and Pioneer League schools know they must construct tough OOC schedules if they want any shot of an at-large or drawing a bye in the first round. Those schools are,if they truly have low scholarship/no scholarship counts, ineligible to beat up on the Gophers or any other FBS team. That FBS bounce to their RPI/GPI/SOS is unlikely , as they wont count toward bowl eligibility, so they won't get scheduled by an FBS program. You would get that bounce even if your Bison lost to Minnesota, though it could have been one less D-1 win. Still your Bison will be queuing up for an at-large bid,barring a collapse in the MVFC, where mine must certainly win the Patriot League title and take the AQ, and certainly play in the first round on the road. (If my Bison achieve that unlikely height, please make it a day's drive from Albuquerque that first round game.)

Now, the MEAC and SWAC schools are scholarship programs. How do they figure in your althletic merit-aid-ocracy? You really must sit up nights seething about the amount of scholarship money being withheld from deserving young men. These 'second-class' schools,mostly private, give financial aid to their football players based on need, but you know all this. You just gotta look for a new place to saw on these conferences, that somehow offend your sensibilities. This indeed is the tyranny of the NCAA. Division I schools play Division 1 football and the FCS is where we play ball.

Ugh.

Lehigh gives scholarship equivalencies in the 50s. They're smack dab in the middle of what I would obviously consider "real DI teams". Don't know what Holy Cross equivalencies are, but guessing that it would be somewhere near a reasonable cut-off for being able to count the win towards playoff eligibility.


Your lack of reading comprehension is either astounding or contrived.

[BisonFan02]

A DI win is a DI win...END OF STORY! If there are multiple teams that have 7 or 8 wins, your strength of schedule will be/should be the benchmark to determine a program's playoff fate. Frankly, on any given year, there are numerous non-scholly schools that would be much better competition (case in point, UNH's schedule this year). That being said, there are going to be bubble teams every year that are going to feel slighted by not getting the nod, no matter how many teams are selected and how they are selected.

[ngineer]

Shouldn't matter if non-scholarship. What matters is how good was the opponent. No different than comparing a victory over Davidson v. a victory over Dayton or a victory over Appalachian State v. a victory over Duquesne. Committee will be looking at the quality of the wins regardless of a school's financial aid policy.

[Sycamore51]

Agreed that a D1 win is a D1 win. For most of the last 15 years a lot of the PFL teams had more recorses and better facilities than INST did. I've been to Morehead, Dayton, and Butler. They've got some nice facilities at those places and quality resources.

[MplsBison]

Well it appears (some of) AGS has spoken: if your school has a DI basketball team then they just plain don't give a rip about how little money you put into your football team. Even if you award zero scholarship equivalencies to your football players and pay your head football coach less than the local high school pays theirs, you still count the same because you have a DI basketball team.

At least, that's what they'll say until their school is the last one out of the playoff bracket because the last school in beat 3 non-scholarship "DI" schools.

Yep, it's basically a given that most people have no ability to foresee how a particular situation could negatively affect themselves until they're sitting there going "....shoot...this does suck...". xbangx

[Sycamore51]

Until they make a day when there is an official 1-AAA with it's own tourney, you have to count them. If not then you are giving these schools the football death penalty.

[van]

ugh, can we get Bucknell back to a losing record so we don't have to hear from mpl again?

[MplsBison]

Until they make a day when there is an official 1-AAA with it's own tourney, you have to count them. If not then you are giving these schools the football death penalty.

They never earned life in the FCS.

Why should a school simply be able to decide "yes, we want to have a varsity football team" and then be given an automatic home in FCS - just because they have DI basketball?

Bullpoop! You shouldn't just get to be in FCS automatically just because you decided you want to have varsity football. You should have to demonstrate a financial commitment to support the team at the proper level before you're allowed to participate in the NCAA.

Too bad if you already have DI basketball and can't afford to support a real DI football team. Not our division's problem.

[NHwildEcat]

They never earned life in the FCS.

Why should a school simply be able to decide "yes, we want to have a varsity football team" and then be given an automatic home in FCS - just because they have DI basketball?

Bullpoop! You shouldn't just get to be in FCS automatically just because you decided you want to have varsity football. You should have to demonstrate a financial commitment to support the team at the proper level before you're allowed to participate in the NCAA.

Too bad if you already have DI basketball and can't afford to support a real DI football team. Not our division's problem.

That issue lies with the NCAA though...

[Sycamore51]

The NCAA doesn't give a crap about us down here in FCS land. They would never do that because they would lose out on some very good basketball schools and the NCAA basketball tourney is the big money maker for the NCAA.

[Silenoz]

GoGriz - why does this conversation make you so uncomfortable? is it because you're scared that Montana might actually be in the position where scheduling non-scholarship FCS schools could land them outside of the playoffs one day?
What? Maybe if we played them...

And I had this debate on CS last season, but no, I don't like how a win over a Pioneer team "counts", yet beating a NW Mizzou State or Grand Valley State wouldn't count for anything. The 7 DI wins crap needs to be dropped and the committee needs to instead dissect each every schedule by a case by case basis. I don't care if that would take up their whole weekend

[MplsBison]

That issue lies with the NCAA though...

Yes it does. What is your point?

[MplsBison]

The NCAA doesn't give a crap about us down here in FCS land. They would never do that because they would lose out on some very good basketball schools and the NCAA basketball tourney is the big money maker for the NCAA.

You can't possibly be serious if you're suggesting that Pioneer schools would leave the NCAA if given the ultimatum to either increase football scholarship equivalencies to at least 40 or else their football teams can not participate in DI FCS.

No way in a million years. These school are only in DI so their men's BB teams can be in DI. Football doesn't mean crap to them, as is self-evident by their lack of financial support for the team.


It's really only the Pioneer schools, with a handful from the lower end of the NEC and Patriot League, that wouldn't meet even a modest 40 scholarship equivalency requirement. These are the schools that have DI basketball and for some reason think they're entitled to be allowed to participate in NCAA DI varsity football just because they decided to have a team. There should be no such entitlement, unless the school is willing to meet minimum financial support levels.


At least here in this thread I'm only asking that a minimum scholarship equivalency level be instated such that wins against teams below that level don't count toward playoff eligibility. Also there would need to be a hard rule instated prohibiting teams from being eligible for the playoffs if they didn't have a certain number of wins against teams meeting the requirement.

So that way Pioneer teams could still technically be in FCS, but would never be able to get to the playoffs - officially - and would most likely never be scheduled by most of FCS teams that want to get to the playoffs. Thus, giving them a better incentive to get to the eligible level.

I think it's a good and fair idea that ought to be considered by the NCAA.

[NHwildEcat]

Yes it does. What is your point?

The point is that if the NCAA was concerned about football then they would make a clarification and hold football programs to the same standards as other scholarhip sports. The NCAA has never cared about football thus why they fold to the Bowls system instead of taking control over the big time programs and making them fall under the guidelines the rest of us have to live with.

[URMite]

Haven't we already discussed this a few years ago with Dayton/San Diego? I believe they were something similar to 10-1 with 6non-scholly wins and 2 scholly wins and didn't get in...

Maybe you should check and see what is the most non-scholly wins an at-large team has ever had? and what 8 Div-I win teams have been left out and their number of non-scholly wins, then we can look at this again...

[MplsBison]

The point is that if the NCAA was concerned about football then they would make a clarification and hold football programs to the same standards as other scholarhip sports. The NCAA has never cared about football thus why they fold to the Bowls system instead of taking control over the big time programs and making them fall under the guidelines the rest of us have to live with.

Ok...? So that means...we're prohibited from complaining about the NCAA on this board? I still don't get your point.

[MplsBison]

Haven't we already discussed this a few years ago with Dayton/San Diego? I believe they were something similar to 10-1 with 6non-scholly wins and 2 scholly wins and didn't get in...

Maybe you should check and see what is the most non-scholly wins an at-large team has ever had? and what 8 Div-I win teams have been left out and their number of non-scholly wins, then we can look at this again...

Ah, so it's prohibited from being discussed until it actually happens.

Yes, that's a fantastic method for policy planning decisions.


Like I said, most people just can't comprehend how something can negatively affect them until it actually does. That's why most policy is reactionary.

[NHwildEcat]

Ok...? So that means...we're prohibited from complaining about the NCAA on this board? I still don't get your point.

Hey you have the freedom's to complain about whatever your heart desires. You don't have to see those schools as adequate to your higher standards, but according to the NCAA they are all playing at an equal level in the world of NCAA football and there is no amount of complaining that is going to change that.

[URMite]

Ah, so it's prohibited from being discussed until it actually happens.

Yes, that's a fantastic method for policy planning decisions.


Like I said, most people just can't comprehend how something can negatively affect them until it actually does. That's why most policy is reactionary.

My point is how many scholly teams have even scheduled 3 non-scholly teams? You typically only see that with teams in non-scholly conferences or teams that are ineligible. I just think the more historical facts you have, the better the discussion you will have, not that you can't discuss it at all.

So here is a hypothetical, it is possible for Davidson & Valpo to both become independents and play each other 11 times. If they did and one team won 7 of the 11 games they would be eligible for playoff consideration. Should the NCAA write a rule to prohibit a team that does that from being considered?

[UNHFootballAlum]

Guys is it really that hard to put yourself in a hypothetical scenario where your team is the last team out of the playoff bracket after a hard fought season with 7 wins over quality, scholarship teams and the last team in the bracket had 3 wins over FCS non-scholarship teams?

Would you really be so dismissive of such a scenario? I would hope not, if you're really a fan of your team.


The bottom line question:
Does a team with 8 wins, 3 of which are over non-scholarship FCS teams, deserve to get into the playoffs over a team that has 7 wins, all of which are over full scholarship FCS teams?

The scenario for the committee is the same regardless of Scholly or non-scholly. They will compare strength of sched of each team being considered and the quality of each win before deciding on which team will make it into the playoffs. You are making the argument too simplistic. UNH played and beat Lehigh who is currently ranked 8 or 9 in the latest polls. They will probably finish the year ranked higher than several schools that get at large berths. In this scenario, UNH will benefit from playing Lehigh, a Non-scholly

[HensRock]

Until they make a day when there is an official 1-AAA with it's own tourney, you have to count them. If not then you are giving these schools the football death penalty.

Along with Div I-A and Div I-AA, Div I-AAA was an official designation for schools in Division one who DO NOT field a football team (at all).
Examples are Marquette and Xavier.

[MplsBison]

Hey you have the freedom's to complain about whatever your heart desires. You don't have to see those schools as adequate to your higher standards, but according to the NCAA they are all playing at an equal level in the world of NCAA football and there is no amount of complaining that is going to change that.

I still don't see what you're getting at. Is it that if the situation is hopeless, then you should not complain about it and should not suggest ways that it could be better?

[MplsBison]

My point is how many scholly teams have even scheduled 3 non-scholly teams? You typically only see that with teams in non-scholly conferences or teams that are ineligible. I just think the more historical facts you have, the better the discussion you will have, not that you can't discuss it at all.

So here is a hypothetical, it is possible for Davidson & Valpo to both become independents and play each other 11 times. If they did and one team won 7 of the 11 games they would be eligible for playoff consideration. Should the NCAA write a rule to prohibit a team that does that from being considered?

Just because it's never happened before does not mean it's unworthy of our time and consideration for making a new policy to prevent it from ever happening in the first place.

[MplsBison]

The scenario for the committee is the same regardless of Scholly or non-scholly. They will compare strength of sched of each team being considered and the quality of each win before deciding on which team will make it into the playoffs. You are making the argument too simplistic. UNH played and beat Lehigh who is currently ranked 8 or 9 in the latest polls. They will probably finish the year ranked higher than several schools that get at large berths. In this scenario, UNH will benefit from playing Lehigh, a Non-scholly

Lehigh is a high scholarship equivalency program. In the 50's. A win against that program is easily as legitimate as a win against any other high scholarship team.

For sake of the argument, lets say a school goes 6-2 in their conference - a full scholarship conference - and has three non-conference games against teams giving zero scholarship equivalencies. They beat all three and finish with 9-2 record. There is no possible playoff committee that is going to deny them an at large bid.

But the reality is that they only beat six teams! They're really a six win program masquerading as a nine win program. And they just took a playoff spot away from teams that have seven legitimate wins against full scholarship FCS teams.

I don't see how anyone can not see the inherent unfairness in that.

[downbythebeach]

why go by number of schollies? why not use quality of wins......which is already done

[FargoBison]

They are DI, they should count. That said, the committee is smart enough to decide on their own as to who deserves to be in and who doesn't. If somebody is gaming the system by playing fluff in non-conference I'd expect that they'd be smart enough to realize that and react to it.

It is obvious they are by looking at all the Pioneer League teams that have had gaudy records and been denied at-large bids.

[URMite]

MlpsBison,

What is your opinion going to be when the NCAA grants an automatic qualifier bid to the Pioneer Football League in the near future?

Off topic, I never realized that Ivy League has an AQ but obstains from participation. I assumed that they never pursued an AQ.

[NHwildEcat]

I still don't see what you're getting at. Is it that if the situation is hopeless, then you should not complain about it and should not suggest ways that it could be better?

No, more or less I am saying that you should accept the system as it is until something changes. If there is no motivation to get something changed then it will never happen, and I don't think complaints are going to get a movement towards change. That's all.

[ngineer]

It comes down to quality wins, not the # of scholarships or equivalencies. There are some good quality "non-scholarship" schools over whom a win has more 'merit' than a win over a scholarship school that is a bottom-feeder in their conference.

[UNHFootballAlum]

Lehigh is a high scholarship equivalency program. In the 50's. A win against that program is easily as legitimate as a win against any other high scholarship team.

For sake of the argument, lets say a school goes 6-2 in their conference - a full scholarship conference - and has three non-conference games against teams giving zero scholarship equivalencies. They beat all three and finish with 9-2 record. There is no possible playoff committee that is going to deny them an at large bid.

But the reality is that they only beat six teams! They're really a six win program masquerading as a nine win program. And they just took a playoff spot away from teams that have seven legitimate wins against full scholarship FCS teams.

I don't see how anyone can not see the inherent unfairness in that.

No matter how many non-scholly teams you schedule, it will still come down to strength of sched. That is why a 10-1 USD did not make the playoffs over a 7-4 team that had a better schedule. You are barking up the wrong tree. head to head with another team for the last playoff spot will not come down to ssholly or non-scholly and how many did you play. it will be determined on your strength of schedule and quality of wins

[UAalum72]

Off topic, I never realized that Ivy League has an AQ but obstains from participation. I assumed that they never pursued an AQ.
I don't know that they do.


Autobids are determined by the championship competition committee each year, so they probably don't even consider the Ivy League. There's not supposed to be a standing list of autobid conferences, everybody's supposedly up for consideration every year. I think people just assume the Ivy League would get one if only they'd please, please ask for one, because they've got the three American tickets to success - money, tradition, and more money.

They're not mentioned in the NCAA Championship Manual http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/251baf00487fc31fb7d5ffb1fe52de76/2011+FB.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=251baf00487fc31fb7d5ffb1fe52de76

Automatic Qualifiers
[Reference: Bylaws 31.3.4 and 31.3.5 in the NCAA Manual.]
The following ten conferences have been granted automatic-qualification privileges for
the 2011 championship:

Big Sky Conference
Big South Conference
Colonial Athletic Association
Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference


Missouri Valley Football Conference
Northeast Conference
Ohio Valley Conference
Patriot League
Southern Conference
Southland Conference



Automatic Qualification Criteria/Process
The Division I Football Championship Committee will annually make the determination
of which eligible conferences will receive automatic qualification. The following criteria
are used when determining which conferences shall receive annual automatic qualificationfor the NCAA Division I Football Championship:

1. Non-conference records;
2. Strength of non-conference opponents;
3. Recent postseason history; and
4. Competition against Football Bowl Subdivision opponents



The Division I Championships/Sports Management Cabinet policy stipulates that for the
Division I Football Championship at least 50 percent of the bracket shall be reserved for atlarge
selections, and no more than 50 percent of the bracket shall be available for automatiqualification of eligible conferences.