Why didn't we think of this before

[MplsBison]

Hit me in another thread where an NDSU fan exclaimed that as long as the school brought in "DI counters" to Fargo, he didn't care. The implied meaning being that any team NDSU can count as a win vs. a DI school is good enough to play at home.

So...DUH! Why isn't there a minimum scholarship equivalency requirement in order to count the win towards playoff eligibility?!

See what I did there?
- no scholarship equivalency minimums to participate in DI FCS division - Pioneer teams can still claim that they're DI football teams
- yet, if the win is over a school that doesn't have at least ___% of the maximum scholarship equivalencies allowed in FCS, then it counts the same as beating a DII, DIII or NAIA team


This is the best of both worlds. Absolutely ZERO excuse not to implement something like this when there is already an analog in FBS.

[frozennorth]

How would those programs make money then?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Who is "we?"

[UAalum72]

Too late. Proposed twice by Ohio Valley Conference; both times decisively rejected by the NCAA.

[BisonFan02]

Hit me in another thread where an NDSU fan exclaimed that as long as the school brought in "DI counters" to Fargo, he didn't care. The implied meaning being that any team NDSU can count as a win vs. a DI school is good enough to play at home.

So...DUH! Why isn't there a minimum scholarship equivalency requirement in order to count the win towards playoff eligibility?!

See what I did there?
- no scholarship equivalency minimums to participate in DI FCS division - Pioneer teams can still claim that they're DI football teams
- yet, if the win is over a school that doesn't have at least ___% of the maximum scholarship equivalencies allowed in FCS, then it counts the same as beating a DII, DIII or NAIA team


This is the best of both worlds. Absolutely ZERO excuse not to implement something like this when there is already an analog in FBS.

Whatever, so when an FBS school schedules an FCS school, it doesn't count as a DI win for being bowl eligible. Be careful what you wish for.

[dgtw]

What is the rule about FBS counting FCS schools for bowl eligibility? Are they only allowed one a year and do they have to give scholarships?

[Twentysix]

What is the rule about FBS counting FCS schools for bowl eligibility? Are they only allowed one a year and do they have to give scholarships?

57 scholarship equivalents and 1 (win) per year.

[dgtw]

So why do some schools cap them out at 40? Seems like the money made from FBS games (and the attention that goes with it) would pay for 17 extra fee rides.

[Professor Chaos]

So why do some schools cap them out at 40? Seems like the money made from FBS games (and the attention that goes with it) would pay for 17 extra fee rides.
With Title IX it's going to be 34 free rides and another women's sport to fund most likely.

[MplsBison]

Too late. Proposed twice by Ohio Valley Conference; both times decisively rejected by the NCAA.

Balderdash! When was the last time? Obviously some Pioneer teams had people who voted or they outright bribed voters.

Utter crock of bird droppings - FBS does the ***EXACT*** same thing for counting FCS wins toward their post-season eligibility. FCS should do that for the lower tier within the division. DII should as well.

[MplsBison]

Who is "we?"

Obviously any fan of FCS would support this. Not a single salient reason to be against it.

[dgtw]

Well, the Patriot, Pioneer and Ivy would be against it. I don't think all the HBCUs give out the full allotment, so they'd be against it as well. That's a significant chunk of votes right there before you factor in anybody who might just vote against it for their own reasons even if they give th full 63.

[Squealofthepig]

Obviously any fan of FCS would support this. Not a single salient reason to be against it.

This would do away with the one win vs. FCS counting towards bowl eligibility; therefore much less of a reason for FBS teams to schedule FCS teams; and therefore less payout to FCS teams to go play an FBS team.

Gotta remember, this is still all about money, especially FBS, but that "one win counting towards bowl eligibility" still means a lot of cash for FCS programs.

If money isn't a salient reason for ya - I honestly don't know what is (though ideally I'd support such a move, just the consequences could be dire).

[MplsBison]

This would do away with the one win vs. FCS counting towards bowl eligibility; therefore much less of a reason for FBS teams to schedule FCS teams; and therefore less payout to FCS teams to go play an FBS team.

Gotta remember, this is still all about money, especially FBS, but that "one win counting towards bowl eligibility" still means a lot of cash for FCS programs.

If money isn't a salient reason for ya - I honestly don't know what is (though ideally I'd support such a move, just the consequences could be dire).

HUH????? NOOOOooooo

Dude come on...I'm not talking about changing anything at the FBS level. How can you contrive that from what I wrote?

[MplsBison]

Whatever, so when an FBS school schedules an FCS school, it doesn't count as a DI win for being bowl eligible. Be careful what you wish for.

I refuse to believe that anyone can read my original post and conclude that I'm proposing we do away with FBS teams being allowed to count one win against a FCS team per year towards bowl eligibility.

No...not even close.


I'm talking about not allowing an FCS team to count a win over a no scholarship FCS team towards FCS playoff eligibility. Clearly established that.

[Squealofthepig]

HUH????? NOOOOooooo

Dude come on...I'm not talking about changing anything at the FBS level. How can you contrive that from what I wrote?


- yet, if the win is over a school that doesn't have at least ___% of the maximum scholarship equivalencies allowed in FCS, then it counts the same as beating a DII, DIII or NAIA team

You could not change this at the FCS level and not have the same thing at the FBS level. I infer that from the reality of the NCAA being its normal buttmunch self.

PS: Learn what "contrive" means.

[Twentysix]

A 37 scholarship equivelant would be a fine bottom line imo. A zero scholarship equivilancy team is a bonifided DIII team imo.
DII is 36 right?

The PFL gives how much aid equivalency?

[Squealofthepig]

A 37 scholarship equivelant would be a fine bottom line imo. Zero is a little ridiculous.

D2 is 36 right?

I think something like this is more what we should focus on, if you can have it count similar to what the FBS does with FCS (e.g., FCS level of scholarship, but only count one win). You can play down once and not get dinged, which seems reasonable for every level of college play.

[BisonFan02]

I refuse to believe that anyone can read my original post and conclude that I'm proposing we do away with FBS teams being allowed to count one win against a FCS team per year towards bowl eligibility.

No...not even close.


I'm talking about not allowing an FCS team to count a win over a no scholarship FCS team towards FCS playoff eligibility. Clearly established that.

So, taking that to it's logical conclusion, why should an FBS school be able to count an FCS win towards being bowl eligible....it's a step down right? How is that different than non scholarship teams from the FCS counting?

[401ks]

xdeadhorsex

[Twentysix]

So, taking that to it's logical conclusion, why should an FBS school be able to count an FCS win towards being bowl eligible....it's a step down right? How is that different than non scholarship teams from the FCS counting?

Thats not comparible at all. The FBS allows a 28 scholarship gap. If the FCS did the same thing It would be 35 scholarships for the bottom line counter, which would allow a fully funded DII team to be a counter I believe.

[Squealofthepig]

So, taking that to it's logical conclusion, why should an FBS school be able to count an FCS win towards being bowl eligible....it's a step down right? How is that different than non scholarship teams from the FCS counting?

A) *its

B) http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D111.pdf

It's, like, official ncaa rules and stuff. One FCS win counts towards the bowl-eligibility number of wins.

(I don't agree with reality, but I acknowledge its existence).

[SDFS]

Thats not comparible at all. The FBS allows a 28 scholarship gap. If the FCS did the same thing It would be 35 scholarships for the bottom line counter, which would allow a fully funded DII team to be a counter I believe.

Why not allow a fully funded DII team count. They make more sense than some FCS counters today. Right now the West Coast FCS teams are extremely limited on available teams. Poly, Davis and other West Coast teams are unfairly limited to make the playoffs.

[ccd494]

Absolutely not. Maine would never get another non-conference home game. I think the last non-NEC D-I home game Maine had was Montana in 2003, and that got Montana's AD fired for scheduling a trip all the way up here. We need the NEC home and homes.

[MplsBison]

Bison02 and Squeal - I apologize. Now I understand where you were coming from - though I hadn't considered that position as valid when I wrote the post. Here is why: to me FCS and FBS are not separate divisions like DI and DII are. I think that's technically correct, the NCAA has DI FBS and DI FCS.

So really my proposal is more completely stated like this:

Division I football post-season eligible wins requirements:

FBS: all DI FBS teams may only count wins vs other DI FBS towards post-season eligibility, with the exception that they may count one win against a DI FCS team provided that team awards at least 90% of the maximum scholarship equivalencies allowed by FCS --- (this rule is in place today)

FCS: all DI FCS teams may only count wins vs DI FBS teams and DI FCS teams towards post-season eligibility, provided that the DI FCS teams award at least ___% of the maximum scholarship equivalencies allowed by FCS --- (this rule I am proposing, note that no requirement is needed for FBS because that sub-divison already has a minimum scholarship equivalency requirement)



SDFS: you make a valid point. Purely on the field, you're absolutely correct that some highly funded DII teams are more worth than non-scholarship FCS teams (thinking like NW Mizzou St would beat any Pioneer team, for example).

The problem I can see is that DI and DII have different minimum academic requirements. That's not a problem for me, but I can see that being a stumbling block.


ccd: this would not necessarily prohibit Maine counting wins against NEC schools. Especially those schools on the upper end of the scholarships (Albany, URI, Bryant, etc.). It could only potentially penalize you for playing the lower end NEC schools.

Also, shouldn't Maine be able to get home games against Patriot League teams? Those would more than likely count, except the teams that don't award much aid like G-town.

[UAalum72]

So why do some schools cap them out at 40? Seems like the money made from FBS games (and the attention that goes with it) would pay for 17 extra fee rides.For the NEC, it's because some of the smaller, private colleges are needing more time to work their way up from the non-scholarship budget.


Balderdash! When was the last time? NCAA proposal 2007-101 requiring 50 scholarships or spending minimums for conference autobid selection, and 2007-108 requiring a six-win minimum with five wins against 'qualifying' institution to even get an at-large bid, were both DEFEATED at the NCAA convention in January 2008. A solid majority of the conferences voted against the proposals.

My guess was it was an attempt by the sponsoring OVC to preserve its own autobid from being given to the NEC in the time before the playoffs were expanded.

Obviously some Pioneer teams had people who voted or they outright bribed voters.

Maybe we should ban teams from the playoffs if a certain percent of their fans are obviously libelous, blithering idiots.

[NDB]

Thats not comparible at all. The FBS allows a 28 scholarship gap. If the FCS did the same thing It would be 35 scholarships for the bottom line counter, which would allow a fully funded DII team to be a counter I believe.

That would probably make those cupcake bingers over in the Big Sky happy.

[ccd494]

Also, shouldn't Maine be able to get home games against Patriot League teams? Those would more than likely count, except the teams that don't award much aid like G-town.

They have proven themselves to be completely unwilling to travel to Orono, just like everyone else in the country except the NEC.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

That would probably make those cupcake bingers over in the Big Sky happy.

Your schedule doesn't even come close to what most in the BSC had this year slick so stop making a fool of yourself.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

Your schedule doesn't even come close to what most in the BSC had this year slick so stop making a fool of yourself.

Scheduling in the Big Sky is tricky, not a lot of FCS teams over here, and with Poly, SUU, Davis and UND joining the conference its going to become more difficult. There aren't a lot of options for OOC opponents that are close geographically, so its great when we do get good scheduling from AD's.

[darell1976]

That would probably make those cupcake bingers over in the Big Sky happy.

Because NDSU hasn't had its share of cupcakes in the last 4 years.xrolleyesx

[TheBisonator]

Because NDSU hasn't had its share of cupcakes in the last 4 years.xrolleyesx

Montana Western
Drake
Sioux Falls
Sioux Falls again
Black Hills State
Texas A&M Kingsville
Humboldt State
Northeastern State
Southern Oregon
Lamar (1st year of program)
Western Washington
St. Cloud State


Don't talk with your mouth full.

[darell1976]

Montana Western
Drake
Sioux Falls
Sioux Falls again
Black Hills State
Texas A&M Kingsville
Humboldt State
Northeastern State
Southern Oregon
Lamar (1st year of program)
Western Washington
St. Cloud State


Don't talk with your mouth full.

Notice I said 4 years meaning out of transition. If you want to go back 8 years...lets go.
2004-2007

Valpo
Montana Tech
Carson-Newman
Arkansas-Monticello
Concordia-St. Paul

post transition cupcakes:

2008-present
Austin Peay
Central Conn St
Wagner
Morgan St
South Dakota--still in transition
Lafayette
St. Francis

Western Carolina-2013


If you want to see UND's cupcakes in post transition it would be

2012
SD Mines
2013
Valpo
2014
I don't consider Robert Morris a cupcake since they made the playoffs.

[TheBisonator]

Notice I said 4 years meaning out of transition. If you want to go back 8 years...lets go.
2004-2007

Valpo
Montana Tech
Carson-Newman
Arkansas-Monticello
Concordia-St. Paul

post transition cupcakes:

2008-present
Austin Peay
Central Conn St
Wagner
Morgan St
South Dakota--still in transition
Lafayette
St. Francis

Western Carolina-2013


If you want to see UND's cupcakes in post transition it would be

2012
SD Mines
2013
Valpo
2014
I don't consider Robert Morris a cupcake since they made the playoffs.

*sigh* Do you want me to get out the chart again that shows why NDSU can AFFORD to bring in anyone for 6 home games per year, and that it makes us a LOT OF MONEY??????

Jeebus darell... I didn't know you were this dense...

[darell1976]

*sigh* Do you want me to get out the chart again that shows why NDSU can AFFORD to bring in anyone for 6 home games per year, and that it makes us a LOT OF MONEY??????

Jeebus darell... I didn't know you were this dense...

Okay...explain your cupcakes during transition. I am sure you had fun typing all of UND's.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Because NDSU hasn't had its share of cupcakes in the last 4 years.xrolleyesx


Fiason could have brought the Sioux down to play the Bison but didn't....


Teams do not want to come to Fargo (G Southern). GT has said this numerous times in the past. Teams from the Patriot and NEC will come to play for a charter flight and 150K. Call them cupcakes but they are still counters. Lehigh went to UNI last year and beat them in the playoffs and Lafayette played them tough. So Lafayette is not a cupcake....St Francis is.

I can almost guarantee that Fiason will bring in "cupcakes" also to get home games. Unless he wants to schedule 2 FBS games for the $$.

[darell1976]

Fiason could have brought the Sioux down to play the Bison but didn't....


Teams do not want to come to Fargo (G Southern). GT has said this numerous times in the past. Teams from the Patriot and NEC will come to play for a charter flight and 150K. Call them cupcakes but they are still counters. Lehigh went to UNI last year and beat them in the playoffs and Lafayette played them tough. So Lafayette is not a cupcake....St Francis is.

I can almost guarantee that Fiason will bring in "cupcakes" also to get home games. Unless he wants to schedule 2 FBS games for the $$.

I listed UND's cupcakes that is in the future so far. 2012 its just SD Mines, as we host UCA. 2013 we have Valpo as we also host SDSU and Montana (yes an OOC with Montana). 2014 so far our OOC is Robert Morris, and in 2015 our only OOC game listed so far is Wyoming. Faison never scheduled anything from 2008 or 2009, Tom Bunning our ex-AD did. So what will GT look like if UND can get big name schools to Grand Forks, if "no one will go to Fargo". So far only 1 team has backed out of a trip to GF and that was Idaho State.

[MplsBison]

Scheduling in the Big Sky is tricky, not a lot of FCS teams over here, and with Poly, SUU, Davis and UND joining the conference its going to become more difficult. There aren't a lot of options for OOC opponents that are close geographically, so its great when we do get good scheduling from AD's.

Yeah but to the point of the thread:

Lets say Montana goes 6-2 in the Big Sky and in the non-conference schedule, you beat a FCS full scholarship team on the road, beat a DII at home and beat a FCS non-scholarship team at home. Overall record is 9-2 with 8 DI wins.


But just a second - it just so happens that there are several schools this particular year who have 7 DI wins and all of them are over FBS or full scholarship FCS teams. There are enough so as every team won't make the playoffs.

So should Montana be above that group because they technically have 8 DI wins - or should the win vs. the FCS non-scholarship team not count, meaning you only really have 7 DI wins that are worth anything to the playoff selection committee. That would bring you right down with the rest of the teams that have 7 DI wins, all vying for those at-large bids.


Seems a worthy debate IMO.

[MplsBison]

For the NEC, it's because some of the smaller, private colleges are needing more time to work their way up from the non-scholarship budget.

NCAA proposal 2007-101 requiring 50 scholarships or spending minimums for conference autobid selection, and 2007-108 requiring a six-win minimum with five wins against 'qualifying' institution to even get an at-large bid, were both DEFEATED at the NCAA convention in January 2008. A solid majority of the conferences voted against the proposals.

My guess was it was an attempt by the sponsoring OVC to preserve its own autobid from being given to the NEC in the time before the playoffs were expanded.

Maybe we should ban teams from the playoffs if a certain percent of their fans are obviously libelous, blithering idiots.

Thanks for clarifying that the previous proposals are completely different than what I am proposing. I figured as much.

[frozennorth]

Did darell just call transitioning usd a cupcake?

[Twentysix]

He did indeed.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Humboldt State


Humboldt State has a football team? What are they, the Fightin' Bongs?

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I listed UND's cupcakes that is in the future so far. 2012 its just SD Mines, as we host UCA. 2013 we have Valpo as we also host SDSU and Montana (yes an OOC with Montana). 2014 so far our OOC is Robert Morris, and in 2015 our only OOC game listed so far is Wyoming. Faison never scheduled anything from 2008 or 2009, Tom Bunning our ex-AD did. So what will GT look like if UND can get big name schools to Grand Forks, if "no one will go to Fargo". So far only 1 team has backed out of a trip to GF and that was Idaho State.


Like I said, we'll see.

We have both Montana schools coming to Fargo to play home/home series but they are playing the 1st game here.

We'll see in the coming years how Fiason schedules the FB team. Maybe UND fans do not care if they have only 5 home games, hence other FCS teams will do a home/home. But he uses GT model of 1 FBS game and 2 OOC games preferably at home then there will be "cupcakes" on the schedule, with D2s a possibility with SD Mines coming in next year.....that game will not be a counter by the way. So in UND's 1st yr of playoff el, Fiason has SD Mines coming in as a non-counter....xconfusedxxconfusedx......interesting.

[darell1976]

Like I said, we'll see.

We have both Montana schools coming to Fargo to play home/home series but they are playing the 1st game here.

We'll see in the coming years how Fiason schedules the FB team. Maybe UND fans do not care if they have only 5 home games, hence other FCS teams will do a home/home. But he uses GT model of 1 FBS game and 2 OOC games preferably at home then there will be "cupcakes" on the schedule, with D2s a possibility with SD Mines coming in next year.....that game will not be a counter by the way. So in UND's 1st yr of playoff el, Fiason has SD Mines coming in as a non-counter....xconfusedxxconfusedx......interesting.

Lets just say Sioux fans are scratching their heads on that one. In 2013 we have 7 home games. We start the year with 4 straight home games...can't get any better than that especially if we go 7-0 at home...hello playoffs!!!!

[darell1976]

Did darell just call transitioning usd a cupcake?

You don't think USD is a powerhouse do you? When NDSU played them they were in their 4th year of transition. Plus why would Lamar be a cupcake? They beat USD the same year UND crushed them.

[Twentysix]

You don't think USD is a powerhouse do you? When NDSU played them they were in their 4th year of transition. Plus why would Lamar be a cupcake? They beat USD the same year UND crushed them.

I think their is more than a line between cupcake and powerhouse. Unless of course UND is a cupcake.

[darell1976]

I think their is more than a line between cupcake and powerhouse. Unless of course UND is a cupcake.

To some teams we are since we are still transitioning. I am not putting UND in the powerhouse status (like we were in DII) like NDSU did during their transition stage.

[frozennorth]

To some teams we are since we are still transitioning. I am not putting UND in the powerhouse status (like we were in DII) like NDSU did during their transition stage.
if usd is a cupcake, und definately is. I also wouldn't say that after a 7 year run of non-mediocrity, UND was a D2 powerhouse. N. Alabama, gvsu, ndsu, unc and uno, among others, sure. UND as I understand was marginally competive for large stretches of its modern history. Don't get me wrong here, still a top 25 d2 program at worst.

[darell1976]

if usd is a cupcake, und definately is. I also wouldn't say that after a 7 year run of non-mediocrity, UND was a D2 powerhouse. N. Alabama, gvsu, ndsu, unc and uno, among others, sure. UND as I understand was marginally competive for large stretches of its modern history. Don't get me wrong here, still a top 25 d2 program at worst.

Those teams were powerhouses in different eras. 1980's and 1990's-NDSU and N. Alabama 2000's- UND and Grand Valley State. 1990's-UNC. UNO made the playoffs 3 times in the mid to late 2000's but never won a playoff game so I wouldn't consider them a powerhouse. If a team goes to the playoffs (and win) year after year or show up in the national title game repeatly IMO they are powerhouses. I just used the teams you listed I know there are others.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

Yeah but to the point of the thread:

Lets say Montana goes 6-2 in the Big Sky and in the non-conference schedule, you beat a FCS full scholarship team on the road, beat a DII at home and beat a FCS non-scholarship team at home. Overall record is 9-2 with 8 DI wins.


But just a second - it just so happens that there are several schools this particular year who have 7 DI wins and all of them are over FBS or full scholarship FCS teams. There are enough so as every team won't make the playoffs.

So should Montana be above that group because they technically have 8 DI wins - or should the win vs. the FCS non-scholarship team not count, meaning you only really have 7 DI wins that are worth anything to the playoff selection committee. That would bring you right down with the rest of the teams that have 7 DI wins, all vying for those at-large bids.


Seems a worthy debate IMO.

I see your point, but in my mind it comes down to DI being DI. If the NCAA recognizes a program as being DI, I think it should count towards your seven DI victories. However, where I think the distinction would be made is by the selection committee. If you had multiple teams who are playoff eligible I would assume they would look at a team's body of work. My guess is that if one team had played a schedule with all DI scholarship opponents, they would be selected over a team who had one or more wins against non-scholarship opponents.

To the post I made earlier, I was just trying to point out some of the regional difficulties with scheduling. to my knowledge, Montana has not played a DI non-scholarship school recently. We do play a DII school pretty consistently. I am not a big fan of it, but I would wager to guess that at least one of the reasons we play DII games is that it is hard to find enough DI opponents to come to Montana. At some point, the AD needs to look at a schedule and decide if playing that schedule could leave their team out of the playoffs because of too many potential FBS losses, DII games, or if a rule were made about DI non-scholarship schools not counting.

[danefan]

Something interesting and relevant to note: for AQ tie-breaking purposes, the CAA used to treat wins over non-scholarship teams as worth less than wins over other AQ teams. For example, prior to the NEC being a scholarship league, the CAA tie breaking procedure would award 1 point in the tie-breaker formula for an OOC win over an NEC team. When the NEC started offering scholarships, the CAA began awarding 2 points for NEC wins as was the case for wins over scholarship conferences.

The CAA has since changed the tie breaker alternative to the ELO_Chess formula.

[MplsBison]

I see your point, but in my mind it comes down to DI being DI. If the NCAA recognizes a program as being DI, I think it should count towards your seven DI victories. However, where I think the distinction would be made is by the selection committee. If you had multiple teams who are playoff eligible I would assume they would look at a team's body of work. My guess is that if one team had played a schedule with all DI scholarship opponents, they would be selected over a team who had one or more wins against non-scholarship opponents.

To the post I made earlier, I was just trying to point out some of the regional difficulties with scheduling. to my knowledge, Montana has not played a DI non-scholarship school recently. We do play a DII school pretty consistently. I am not a big fan of it, but I would wager to guess that at least one of the reasons we play DII games is that it is hard to find enough DI opponents to come to Montana. At some point, the AD needs to look at a schedule and decide if playing that schedule could leave their team out of the playoffs because of too many potential FBS losses, DII games, or if a rule were made about DI non-scholarship schools not counting.

I should've proposed the scenario the other way around - that way it doesn't give you motivation to defend the status quo. I mistakenly though you were able to put yourself in the other teams left out of the playoffs' shoes.


Let's say Montana is 7-4 at the end of the year, with 6-2 Big Sky record, a loss to a FBS, loss to a top 10 scholarship FCS and a win over a top 10 scholarship FCS. But they are the last team out of the playoffs because Sam Houston St scheduled 3 non-scholarship FCS schools from the Pioneer League and had 8 wins, while going 5-3 in Southland conf play.

Now are you going to say "DI is DI"?

[GoGriz1]

You DO realize the selection Committee has discretion, right?? Seven or eight or even 11 DI wins doesn't guarantee anyone an at-large. And yes, the Committee does give weight to strength of schedule. Given your scenario above, I could see the Committee rewarding Montana for difficult scheduling and leaving SHSU out.

Now, about that astroid discussed on the parallel thread....