LFN: "Inspiration" To End the Ivy League Playoff Ban

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/10/sunday-word-inspiration.html

In my "Sunday Word", I tackle "Inspiration" - and more about why the Ivy League should be in the FCS postseason. I don't expect anything to really change because of it - but in the end, the main argument for Ivy participation in the FCS postseason is simple and persuasive.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It always has been my understanding - ever since the Ivy League was formed - that Ivy teams play a couple of schools from what eventually would become the PL essentially as scrimmages. The Ivy schedule then is played to determine the Ivy champion. Polls, rankings, playoff eligibility requirements aside, the only thing that matters to Ivy fans and administrators is the Ivy championship, and who winds Harvard/Yale.

Last weekend Harvard traveled to Lafayette and Yale traveled to Lehigh. Later, Dartmouth will travel to Holy Cross, Cornell will travel to Colgate and Yale will travel to Lafayette. Why? because the PL schools no longer are in a position to be instructed by Big Ivy regarding where to play, when, and against whom. Ivy has to pick somebody for those pre-season scrimmages, and the PL teams have always been around, like loyal pets. So some compromise is in order, even if simply for show.

I'm certain that Ivy could dictate schedules to other, non-PL "scrimmage" teams and never have to play OOC games away from home. It could pick out some new pets from the pound. But it would have to let loose its faithful, long-time companions into the wild.

And then those loveable, feral strays might just turn into big, mean, gnarly dogs - and some day eat them alive.

[J_Wilson]

I doubt the Ivy league would want to play FCS Playoff caliber teams as the outcome would most likely be embarrassing to them.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I doubt the Ivy league would want to play FCS Playoff caliber teams as the outcome would most likely be embarrassing to them.

I suspect it would more likely be embarrassing to certain playoff-caliber teams, at least with regard to the Ivy champion.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL will get football scholarships before the Ivies have a playoff system.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PL will get football scholarships before the Ivies have a playoff system.

Probably - though, DFW, do you know something I don't about the PL presidents? xlolx

Seriously, the senseless postseason ban - applicable only to football, and not any one of the other sports the Ivy League sponsors, whether non-revenue-generating or revenue generating (e.g., men's basketball) - makes the PL/Ivy games much less relevant than they could be. I think that's what struck me most about the Lehigh/Yale game more than anything else: Lehigh was playing for so much more than Yale was. And that, simply, is the problem.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It always has been my understanding - ever since the Ivy League was formed - that Ivy teams play a couple of schools from what eventually would become the PL essentially as scrimmages. The Ivy schedule then is played to determine the Ivy champion. Polls, rankings, playoff eligibility requirements aside, the only thing that matters to eight ultra-rich guys at the Ivy country club, and who winds Harvard/Yale.

Fixed it for you. While the "Caviar 8" seem to be steadfast in denying their Ivy League football teams the ability to compete on a national stage, coaches, players, and even the rapidly aging Ivy League fan base seem to want to see their teams in the FCS postseason, just to be more of a part of the subdivision they're ostensibly in and to see how good they actually are on a national level.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Fixed it for you. While the "Caviar 8" seem to be steadfast in denying their Ivy League football teams the ability to compete on a national stage, coaches, players, and even the rapidly aging Ivy League fan base seem to want to see their teams in the FCS postseason, just to be more of a part of the subdivision they're ostensibly in and to see how good they actually are on a national level.

Sort of begs the question, though. Do they need to know how good they are? Every kid on every Ivy team had a choice of playing at another DI team that participates in the playoffs or in the bowl system. I agree with DFW that the Ivy will not participate in the FCS football playoffs - ever. The only possibility would be a Lambert Bowl of some sort, and that still would have to be penultimate to Harvard-Yale.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sort of begs the question, though. Do they need to know how good they are? Every kid on every Ivy team had a choice of playing at another DI team that participates in the playoffs or in the bowl system. I agree with DFW that the Ivy will not participate in the FCS football playoffs - ever. The only possibility would be a Lambert Bowl of some sort, and that still would have to be penultimate to Harvard-Yale.

If you thought the lifting of the postseason ban was a longshot, the Lambert Bowl is an even bigger one.

I think the Ivy athletes can accept that they are FCS teams, and thus are a step below FBS in certain ways. But as competitors, it must kill them to not only be unable (unless exceptions are made to the counter rules) to play FBS teams, nor be ranked No. 1 at the end of the season, to be perennially listed behind the winner of the FCS National Championship game.

For the HBCU teams in the SWAC, this isn't as much of an issue, since there are plenty of writers/pollsters that have created the mythical "Black College National Champions" moniker, so a Top 30 finish in the FCS world, and a No. 1 ranking as "HBCU Champions" gives them something to shoot for, to be ranked No. 1 at something. The Ivy League has no such ranking, or measurement, where they can reasonably call themselves "No. 1".

[youwouldno]

It will never happen so there's no point carrying on about it. Ivy administrations have strong anti-athletic instincts but are constrained from going too far, as it would alienate important financial backers. But they managed to get a bit of a win by staying out of the playoffs and they won't let go of it.

[Doc QB]

...Every kid on every Ivy team had a choice of playing at another DI team that participates in the playoffs or in the bowl system...

Not so sure EVERY Ivy football recruit had that opportunity. Aside from the "scholarship" athletes at the H-Y-P consortium given there aid qualification schemes, there are still quite a few div III level athletes fillling out the rosters of those as well as the bottom tier of Ivy squads. I would postulate it is infact a very strict minority that turned down full scholarships to top level FCS programs, let alone FBS ones.

I am not sure how many years the big three have had their school wide, generous aid policies, but I for one, am not so sure it has generated any real dominance over the PL on a consistent basis. Consistent Harvard teams have been around a while, but Penn does not advertise such an aid regimen, and I think they have done as well as H-Y-P, haven't they?

It makes Lehigh's dismantling Yale all the more sweet, though...

[Bogus Megapardus]

It will never happen so there's no point carrying on about it. Ivy administrations have strong anti-athletic instincts but are constrained from going too far, as it would alienate important financial backers. But they managed to get a bit of a win by staying out of the playoffs and they won't let go of it.

I don't think that Ivy administrators have anti-athletic instincts at all. After all, Ivy teams participate in more, and in a wider variety of, sports that any other conference. Ivy has very nice facilities and its programs are well-funded. But there's a bugaboo about football, and it is never going to allow athletic merit aid in any sport.

[youwouldno]

I don't think that Ivy administrators have anti-athletic instincts at all. After all, Ivy teams participate in more, and in a wider variety of, sports that any other conference. Ivy has very nice facilities and its programs are well-funded. But there's a bugaboo about football, and it is never going to allow athletic merit aid in any sport.

Well it does depend on the sport, specifically, how favorably they see the playing field. With respect to Olympic sports, they can compete very effectively. But since football is a tougher landscape, at the end of the season they take their ball and go home. So anti-athletic was too broad... more a case of selectively competing.

[WestCoastAggie]

The Ivy League should honestly be in the BCS, competing against the B1G 10.

They honestly would be I believe, if the NCAA wasn't able to punk the Quakers into giving up its TV contract with ABC.

[UNH Fanboi]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/10/sunday-word-inspiration.html

In my "Sunday Word", I tackle "Inspiration" - and more about why the Ivy League should be in the FCS postseason. I don't expect anything to really change because of it - but in the end, the main argument for Ivy participation in the FCS postseason is simple and persuasive.

LFN,

Do you realize that the movie Invictus is actually very historically accurate? Mandela did indeed take a very keen fascination with the Rugby team's 1995 World Cup campaign. Obviously that was not the sole obsession of his presidency, but a movie about the rugby team is not going to focus on his other endeavors. Allowing the team to keep the Springbok name was a very important gesture to the white community, which is extremely fanatical about rugby (much more so than any comparable analogy in America because there are more sports here), while at the same time was very risky politically for Mandela because of the connotations in the black community. At that time, apartheid was over, but the country was in very precarious position and the threat of civil war remained. Mandela took such an interest in the rugby team because it was a vehicle for uniting the nation and demonstrating to the white community, which controlled nearly all of the country's wealth, that they would be part of the new South Africa. In South Africa, the 1995 world cup is like the Miracle on Ice times 10. I can understand that you didn't like the execution of the movie, but the fact that you found the story to be unbelievable is a little ironic. The player that Damon portrayed, Francois Pienaar, actually looks pretty similar to Damon. And I would not be surprised at all if the team visited Robben Island--it is one of the top tourist destinations in South Africa.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN,

Do you realize that the movie Invictus is actually very historically accurate?

I have no doubt Mandela took an interest in the rugby team, and did actually make some moves to reconcile the race wounds involving the Springboks. But making it seem like Mandela was the only guy behind it, and that his interest in the team was any more than one of encouragement and gentle nudging was, IMO, insulting to the movie viewer. I mean, who would put the fate of their nation in the hands of a sports team? What if they lost?

As a movie about Mandela the leader, it's sorely lacking, because it makes it seem like he went to prison for the sole purpose of inspiring a rugby team 26 years later. And as a sports movie it sucks, since the movie is ham-fisted about the "inspirational" role of Mandela, provides no clear scenes of the rugby action with any meaning, while at the same time reducing the personal lives of the athletes to mere caricatures.

I think "inspired by true events" is a better description. :D

[bonarae]

It always has been my understanding - ever since the Ivy League was formed - that Ivy teams play a couple of schools from what eventually would become the PL essentially as scrimmages. The Ivy schedule then is played to determine the Ivy champion. Polls, rankings, playoff eligibility requirements aside, the only thing that matters to Ivy fans and administrators is the Ivy championship, and who winds Harvard/Yale.

Last weekend Harvard traveled to Lafayette and Yale traveled to Lehigh. Later, Dartmouth will travel to Holy Cross, Cornell will travel to Colgate and Yale will travel to Lafayette. Why? because the PL schools no longer are in a position to be instructed by Big Ivy regarding where to play, when, and against whom. Ivy has to pick somebody for those pre-season scrimmages, and the PL teams have always been around, like loyal pets. So some compromise is in order, even if simply for show.

I'm certain that Ivy could dictate schedules to other, non-PL "scrimmage" teams and never have to play OOC games away from home. It could pick out some new pets from the pound. But it would have to let loose its faithful, long-time companions into the wild.

And then those loveable, feral strays might just turn into big, mean, gnarly dogs - and some day eat them alive.

I think first thing for the Ivies to reform themselves is to end their closed-door scrimmages against themselves (or any other team for that matter) at all costs. Besides, who else in Division I still plays JV football? xlolx


I doubt the Ivy league would want to play FCS Playoff caliber teams as the outcome would most likely be embarrassing to them.

True. See Princeton against The Citadel and (we'll yet to see) Hampton, and also Dartmouth-UNH in recent years (UNH was like Lehigh today back then, and it still is now). xsmhx


Fixed it for you. While the "Caviar 8" seem to be steadfast in denying their Ivy League football teams the ability to compete on a national stage, coaches, players, and even the rapidly aging Ivy League fan base seem to want to see their teams in the FCS postseason, just to be more of a part of the subdivision they're ostensibly in and to see how good they actually are on a national level.

Yes. The Presidents are still the stumbling block to our progress and future. xbawlingx


It will never happen so there's no point carrying on about it. Ivy administrations have strong anti-athletic instincts but are constrained from going too far, as it would alienate important financial backers. But they managed to get a bit of a win by staying out of the playoffs and they won't let go of it.

Hmm, do you know the UAA and the NESCAC? Both have strong academic backgrounds but both also de-emphasize football in their athletic departments, keeping their champion out of the playoffs (because of this, they don't get much publicity in the national media as UWW and Mount Union do.) NESCAC doesn't play OOC opponents as well. That should change too to level the playing field in the dwindling northeast CFB scene.

[carney2]

We do this every year. Why?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We do this every year. Why?

Because somebody ought to do it. If not me, who?

I say this a lot, incidentally.

[Ivytalk]

Fixed it for you. While the "Caviar 8" seem to be steadfast in denying their Ivy League football teams the ability to compete on a national stage, coaches, players, and even the rapidly aging Ivy League fan base seem to want to see their teams in the FCS postseason, just to be more of a part of the subdivision they're ostensibly in and to see how good they actually are on a national level.

Rapidly aging, my ***! I attended Harvard-Lafayette last weekend, and there were more old geezers on the home side than I could count. As if that's an Ivy problem only. Does any conference NOT have a rapidly aging fan base? Have students anywhere rediscovered football?

[Bogus Megapardus]

We do this every year. Why?

It fills the gap between scholarship threads, and it reminds us of what we once were not.

[DFW HOYA]

Does any conference NOT have a rapidly aging fan base? Have students anywhere rediscovered football?

Sure, except they're in I-A.

Check this picture from Texas A&M: those three decks on the east side are all student tickets: 31,000 a game.

http://0.tqn.com/d/collegefootball/1/0/y/1/-/-/kyle.jpg

[ngineer]

Rapidly aging, my ***! I attended Harvard-Lafayette last weekend, and there were more old geezers on the home side than I could count. As if that's an Ivy problem only. Does any conference NOT have a rapidly aging fan base? Have students anywhere rediscovered football?

I very big problem on the horizion all over the East. Attendance has dropped 30% at Lehigh since 2000-01 or so. Yes, we hit a skid patch from 2007-09, but with last year's rebound continuing into this year, one would think there would be a similar rebound. No. The culture in socieity has changed. More things to do, diversions, and seemingly more family activities (in an organizational type setting) that interfere with people "taking the afternoon off" to go watch a football game. All games on local TV don't help either.

[DFW HOYA]

The problem is not with the region but the product. Today's college students are adept at supporting teams that are successful while ignoring those that are not. Penn State students line up around the block for football, much less so for basketball. Closer to I-AA, think Delaware--strong football attendance, but draws 2,500a game in basketball.

Georgetown has the opposite problem--40% of the undergraduate student body has season tickets for basketball. If that many showed up at the MSF they would overrun the place, but the perception of the MSF as a campus embarassment and the football program as underachievers leads them in other directions during the fall.

Give your students a winner--a team that is good enough to compete with anyone, even the bigger schools, and people will come. Or follow the wisdom of Homer Simpson: "Aim low, aim so low that when you achieve your goal, even you will be disappointed."

[Ivytalk]

I very big problem on the horizion all over the East. Attendance has dropped 30% at Lehigh since 2000-01 or so. Yes, we hit a skid patch from 2007-09, but with last year's rebound continuing into this year, one would think there would be a similar rebound. No. The culture in socieity has changed. More things to do, diversions, and seemingly more family activities (in an organizational type setting) that interfere with people "taking the afternoon off" to go watch a football game. All games on local TV don't help either.

When we were young, ng, the football game was a good place to meet chicks! Well, maybe not at Lehigh...xlolx

[MplsBison]

The PL will get football scholarships before the Ivies have a playoff system.

PL teams awards scholarships to football players now.

They just divvy the money up based on need, rather than who the coach thinks should get the money.

[Bogus Megapardus]

PL teams awards scholarships to football players now.


I have an "illustrated" edition of Strunk and White that might help you, MplsBison.