What is the future of the Great West Football Conference?

[slostang]

The GWFC has made a splash into the I-AA world the last two years and has given the far west a second conference. Last year there were three teams from the GWFC that were ranked at some point in the season and UC Davis had probably I-AA biggest win last year with their win over Stanford. Cal Poly made the playoffs and had a huge win over Montana in Missoula. The GWFC accomplished all this with only two fully funded teams, one of which became fully funded last year. Look for SDSU and Davis to become fully funded in the next two years and SSU to continue to add scholarships. Imagine what the GWFC can do as a fully funded conference.

So where does the GWFC go from here? If NDSU and SDSU join an all sports conference that includes football (like the Big Sky or Gateway) then the GWFC will go by the way side. The only hope I see is if they were to join a conference like the Mid-Con that does not offer football but would insure a home for the rest of their teams. This seems to be a bigger possibility now that Chicago State has left the Mid-Con and there is talk of expansion.

The other issue is expansion of the GWFC now that UNC has left for the Big Sky leaving the GWFC with only five teams. The University of North Dakota has talked about moving up and would be a good fit. The University of San Diego would be a good fit if they make the move up from their mid major status and offered scholarships. There are other teams from the NCC (the division II conference that SDSU, NDSU and UNC came from and UND currently resides in) that have talked about moving up.

It will be interesting to see what develops over the next few months. If the GWFC survives, I think the rest of the I-AA world better watch out.

[TexasTerror]

Can you list the schools that have had initial discussions about moving up to Div I athletics? North Dakota and St. Cloud St are the only ones I'm familiar with. Any others?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is there a chance of other Cali state schools bringing back football (Chico, Irvine, UCSB) and competing at PCG level? That could promise to be a way to preserve the conference.

One thing I like about the GWFC is the presence of great rivalries, especially involving the "Battle for the 'Shoe" (Davis/Cal Poly) and the "Causeway Classic" with Sac State. If the GWFC somehow could get an all-sports affiliation, and even bring Sac State in the mix, you'd have an AWESOME conference. :hurray:

[GoAgs72]

There are enough colleges in California that formerly had football to fill two or three conferences. I don't think any plan to bring them back. It's just too expensive and there are too many competing activities. L.A. can't even support one pro football team. I would love to add North Dakota, San Diego and even ... Sac State. Every conference needs a bottom feeder and Sac can do that just as easily in the GWFC as they do in the BSC.

[WYOBISONMAN]

I think that the first big milepost in the long term survival of the GWFC will be in May when the Big Sky Presidents meet in Missoula. If that meeting adjorns with an air of indifference toward the Dakotas, I would say that the MidCon/GWFC will be a very likely option for both schools, and also for UND that I would expect to announce a DI move this spring. If the Big Sky Presidents look at moving to a 12 team Big Sky, I think that the future of the GWFC becomes very murky indeed. Time will tell on this story!

[89Hen]

Is the Mid-Con a real possibility? No offense to WIU or SUU, but that's not a really strong conference, is it?

What should really happen IMO is NDSU and SDSU join the Gateway for football and move the rest of their sports to the Missouri Valley. :nod:

[RabidRabbit]

Is the Mid-Con a real possibility? No offense to WIU or SUU, but that's not a really strong conference, is it?

What should really happen IMO is NDSU and SDSU join the Gateway for football and move the rest of their sports to the Missouri Valley. :nod:

We (NDSU & SDSU) hope that mid-con choose to go to a 10 or 12 team conference. It is an all-sports except football conference. WIU & SUU are the only FB schools there. I would anticipate that both Dakota schools will spend considerably more time in the top half of the Mid-Con conference standing in our sports than in the bottom half.

While the Gateway/Mo. Valley appear to mesh, these conferences have indicated NO INTEREST, certainly in the short term.

I hope that we get to see a strong DAK contigency in the Mid-Con and continue GWFC as the strong 2nd western football conference. This is needed as there is already 14 strong football schools out west, and both the great west and big sky are then available as schools upgrading to PCG have a place some football. Otherwise, have Big Sky with 9-10-11-12, and Independents trying like h*ll to find anybody to play (See SUU & UC-Davis's scheduling whoa's this 06 year).

[89Hen]

I would anticipate that both Dakota schools will spend considerably more time in the top half of the Mid-Con conference standing in our sports than in the bottom half.
I would too, but I don't necessarily think that's a good thing. If my school were moving, I'd want it to be a step up to a tougher conference where they could grow into it. :twocents:

[SochorField]

Is there a chance of other Cali state schools bringing back football (Chico, Irvine, UCSB) and competing at PCG level? That could promise to be a way to preserve the conference.


I don't think Chico State or UC Santa Barbara will ever bring back football. Did UC Irvine ever have a team?

I'm beginning to feel like UC Davis and Cal Poly need to find an all-sports conference. The Big West is cool, if only there were more football programs...

[WYOBISONMAN]

Is the Mid-Con a real possibility? No offense to WIU or SUU, but that's not a really strong conference, is it?

What should really happen IMO is NDSU and SDSU join the Gateway for football and move the rest of their sports to the Missouri Valley. :nod:

That would be a great solution, but I don't think the Dakotas would have a shot at it.

[Gil Dobie]

Having the Dakota schools in the Mid-Con, could have a positive affect on the conference. Pushing the conference to higher goals, similar to NDSU football raising the bar for other conference members to be better in the NCC and DII overall, similar to SDSU setting the bar in basketball.

[RabidRabbit]

I would too, but I don't necessarily think that's a good thing. If my school were moving, I'd want it to be a step up to a tougher conference where they could grow into it. :twocents:

It's been an educational couple of years since transition began in '03. What has become VERY CLEAR is that A CONFERENCE makes all the difference. The Dakota schools have played throughout the USA to make it as an indy. While good to do for OOC. It's nice to be in a conference for all of our sports. Some we'll be the top of the league, but in down years, still tough. We'd like to start with a local conference, and on the great plains those are Gateway/MoValley, Mid-Con, Big Sky. Each presents value in different aspects, but it's critical to be invited to play, and that's been a tough time for the Jacks, and based on Bisonville board, for the Bison also.

D-I is more challenging, but we're eager to enjoy the stretch.

[89Hen]

What has become VERY CLEAR is that A CONFERENCE makes all the difference. The Dakota schools have played throughout the USA to make it as an indy. While good to do for OOC. It's nice to be in a conference for all of our sports.
That's something I had publically desired for years for UD and when the Hens joined the CAA, I could see that CAA football would be a reality and I'd finally have my wish. Now if we could just get ODU and many GMU on board with football we could kick out the rest and have an all sports conference with no associate members (no offense to UR, VU, UMass, UNH, Maine or Nova), the way it should be. :nod:

From an outsiders view, I'd love to see the Gateway become an all-sports conference!

[dbackjon]

That's something I had publically desired for years for UD and when the Hens joined the CAA, I could see that CAA football would be a reality and I'd finally have my wish. Now if we could just get ODU and many GMU on board with football we could kick out the rest and have an all sports conference with no associate members (no offense to UR, VU, UMass, UNH, Maine or Nova), the way it should be. :nod:



All-sports - with no affiliates is the way to go - leads to better conference stability. No fights between football/non-football schools, not as many worries about teams leaving the conference to help other sports....

[89Hen]

No fights between football/non-football schools, not as many worries about teams leaving the conference to help other sports....
We would still have that as not everyone in the CAA plays football, but I have no problem if a team doesn't have a sport and is still in the conference for everything else.

[89Hen]

Back to topic, the easy answer IMeast coastO is that NDSU and SDSU go to Mid-Con or MVC for other sports and Gateway for football. SUU moves out of the Mid-Con and they, along with UC-D and CalPoly join UNC in the BSC.

Big Sky West
PSU
EWU
ISU
SacSt
UC-D
Cal Poly

Big Sky East
Montana
Montana State
NAU
SUU
Weber
UNC

Gateway West
UNI
NDSU
SDSU
WIU
Missouri State

Gateway East
Indiana St
SIU
YSU
WKU
Illinois State

[RabidRabbit]

Back to topic, the easy answer IMeast coastO is that NDSU and SDSU go to Mid-Con or MVC for other sports and Gateway for football. SUU moves out of the Mid-Con and they, along with UC-D and CalPoly join UNC in the BSC.

Big Sky West
PSU
EWU
ISU
SacSt
UC-D
Cal Poly

Big Sky East
Montana
Montana State
NAU
SUU
Weber
UNC

Gateway West
UNI
NDSU
SDSU
WIU
Missouri State

Gateway East
Indiana St
SIU
YSU
WKU
Illinois State

:hurray: :hurray: SELL THE CONFERENCES '89!!!! :bow: :bow:

RABBITS AND BISON FEEL :bang: :bang: about ANY Conference taking us in. (OTHER THAN GWFC, which we've enjoyed!)

[slostang]

I think that the first big milepost in the long term survival of the GWFC will be in May when the Big Sky Presidents meet in Missoula. If that meeting adjorns with an air of indifference toward the Dakotas, I would say that the MidCon/GWFC will be a very likely option for both schools, and also for UND that I would expect to announce a DI move this spring. If the Big Sky Presidents look at moving to a 12 team Big Sky, I think that the future of the GWFC becomes very murky indeed. Time will tell on this story!

Now that Chicago State has left the MidCon and the MidCon commissioner has talked openly about the possibility of expansion, I think that this gives the Dakota schools more leverage on the Big Sky. There are schools in the Big Sky who would welcome NDSU and SDSU to the conference and those who would not. I think the Big Sky thought time was on their side and they could make a decision at their leisure because where would the Dakota schools go? Now with the threat of them jumping to the MidCon, it might give the Big Sky a sense of urgency.

As a fan of Cal Poly I am pulling for NDSU and SDSU to join the MidCon so the GWFC will continue. If it does and it can expand by a team or two, I think the GWFC will become a real power conference in I-AA.

If the Big Sky decides to add both NDSU and SDSU, my next hope would be for the Big Sky to go to a two division format for football and add Cal Poly, UC Davis and SUU as football only affiliates. That definately would be a power conference.

[89Hen]

If the Big Sky decides to add both NDSU and SDSU, my next hope would be for the Big Sky to go to a two division format for football and add Cal Poly, UC Davis and SUU as football only affiliates. That definately would be a power conference.
A 14 team confernce?! :eek: Our 12 team confernce is too big.

[slostang]

Back to topic, the easy answer IMeast coastO is that NDSU and SDSU go to Mid-Con or MVC for other sports and Gateway for football. SUU moves out of the Mid-Con and they, along with UC-D and CalPoly join UNC in the BSC.

Davis and Cal Poly would not join the Big Sky as a full member because the Big West is a better fit for all of their other sports including baseball and softball which the Big Sky does not offer. All trips in the Big West are bus trips (it is an all California conference) and that is huge in nonrevenue generating sports. Cal Poly competes in 20 sports and the travel to all the Big Sky schools (most of which would be flights) would kill the budget.

Cal Poly would love to join the Big Sky as a football affiliate, but the Big Sky by-laws do not currently allow that. Here is hoping they change them to allow football only affiliates if NDSU and SDSU join the Big Sky.

[mainejeff]

A 14 team confernce?! :eek: Our 12 team confernce is too big.

According to some, the CAA may go to 14 or 16.:eek:

[Stang Fever]

According to some, the CAA may go to 14 or 16.:eek:


It would be retarded if the Big Sky went to a 14 team league...never will happen...only chance of that would be a 12 game season every year..that would lighten up the burden.....But not by that much...


Here in SLO we are hoping for the Mid Con for the Dakotas....that would be the best of both worlds....The Mid Con is down to what 8 schools...thats like the Big West out here...but there are two teams joining int he near future...Davis and Cal State Bakersfiled....so that would bring us back to 10...The Mid Con has to move up to 10 teams...Cause 8 is just to little

[89Hen]

Davis and Cal Poly would not join the Big Sky as a full member because the Big West is a better fit for all of their other sports including baseball and softball which the Big Sky does not offer.
Where's the monkey wrench icon? :doh: Oh well, maybe UC-D and CPSLO can talk UCSB, Irvine, Fullerton, Northridge.... to start up/bring back football and we could have the Big West in I-AA! :hurray:

Matter of fact, I'll have to work that into my great master plan for I-AA!

[dbackjon]

Where's the monkey wrench icon? :doh: Oh well, maybe UC-D and CPSLO can talk UCSB, Irvine, Fullerton, Northridge.... to start up/bring back football and we could have the Big West in I-AA! :hurray:

Matter of fact, I'll have to work that into my great master plan for I-AA!

Or have the Great Northwest Conference move from D-II to D-I, adding Western Washington, Western Oregon, Humboldt State and Central Washington to the I-AA(PCG) mix. GWFC becomes GNWF - those four schools, Cal-Poly, UC-Davis, SUU and the Dakotas.....

[Stang Fever]

I would love for western washington to move up...Humboldt state never...if western washington moved up I would predit Humboldt woudl drop football all together....

[OrneryAggie]

I would love for western washington to move up...Humboldt state never...if western washington moved up I would predit Humboldt woudl drop football all together....

Agree. WWU and CWU are being proactive in trying to grow their football programs. Meanwhile Humboldt is barely clinging on for life playing a mix of DII, DIII, NAIA, and IAA with some teams twice a season. Given the DII football situation on the west coast both those washington schools could throw a big wrinkle into the IAA conference makeup in the west. Knowing the luck of the dakotas wwu and cwu will probably try to move up once it looks like NDSU and SDSU finally have their conf situation figured out.

[wannabegaucho]

Humboldt should drop football entirely.

WWU and CWU would be great additions for a GWFC

[RabidRabbit]

Humboldt should drop football entirely.

WWU and CWU would be great additions for a GWFC

These two Washington schools have joined the NCC as football only members. So at the current time they ARE SDSU/NDSU's replacement in that D-2 conference.

[dbackjon]

These two Washington schools have joined the NCC as football only members. So at the current time they ARE SDSU/NDSU's replacement in that D-2 conference.

When is that effective? I know as of the 2005 season they were still playing in the 4-team GWFC with Humboldt and Western Oregon.

[89rabbit]

When is that effective? I know as of the 2005 season they were still playing in the 4-team GWFC with Humboldt and Western Oregon.

This season.

[dbackjon]

This season.

Thanks - any idea what Humboldt and Western Oregon are going to do?

[RabidRabbit]

When is that effective? I know as of the 2005 season they were still playing in the 4-team GWFC with Humboldt and Western Oregon.

2006

[OrneryAggie]

Thanks - any idea what Humboldt and Western Oregon are going to do?

Struggle

[dbackjon]

Struggle

LOL - I mean schedule/conference-wise - play as independents?

[Stang Fever]

Struggle



xlolx xlolx xlolx

I would have said falls off the map..but.......they have already done that in DII

[slostang]

The MidCon dropping Chicago State is big news. If it now takes on NDSU and SDSU it will help the GWFC survive. If the GWFC wants to thrive, it will need to add at least one or two more members if only to qualify for an autobid. The biggest possibilties I see are UND, St Cloud, Western Washington, Central Washington and University of San Diego. The only other possibilty is one of the Big Sky members like Sac State joinning the Big West or Portland State and Eastern Washington joinning the Pacific Coast Conference, but I see any this as less likely to occur. One can hope though.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Now that Chicago State has left the MidCon and the MidCon commissioner has talked openly about the possibility of expansion, I think that this gives the Dakota schools more leverage on the Big Sky. There are schools in the Big Sky who would welcome NDSU and SDSU to the conference and those who would not. I think the Big Sky thought time was on their side and they could make a decision at their leisure because where would the Dakota schools go? Now with the threat of them jumping to the MidCon, it might give the Big Sky a sense of urgency.

As a fan of Cal Poly I am pulling for NDSU and SDSU to join the MidCon so the GWFC will continue. If it does and it can expand by a team or two, I think the GWFC will become a real power conference in I-AA.

If the Big Sky decides to add both NDSU and SDSU, my next hope would be for the Big Sky to go to a two division format for football and add Cal Poly, UC Davis and SUU as football only affiliates. That definately would be a power conference.



One issue though here...

If NDSU and SDSU both joined the Mid-Con, there is the potential for the conference to absorb the GWFC as 3 of it's 5 members would be in the Mid-Con for all-sports. Of course Cal-Poly and UC-Davis could participate as football-only members if such a scenario came to be, along with any other 1-AA upgrades from D2 that fit into the region (if of course the conference was looking for a 6th member for football).

[OrneryAggie]

If the Mid-Con absorbed the GWFC would it have to wait the 6 years (or whatever the rule is) to become official or could an auto-bid be earned sooner?

[Green Cookie Monster]

The Oregon schools aren't going anywhere. There is talk at the state level of eliminating some campuses, E. Oregon is one of the campuses. I am sure the other directional schools are being forced to cut also.

Future of GWFC....

http://mud.mm-a1.yimg.com/image/106071300

[WYOBISONMAN]

The Oregon schools aren't going anywhere. There is talk at the state level of eliminating some campuses, E. Oregon is one of the campuses. I am sure the other directional schools are being forced to cut also.

Future of GWFC....

http://mud.mm-a1.yimg.com/image/106071300

Do you mean eliminating as in close down an entire campus?

[Green Cookie Monster]

Do you mean eliminating as in close down an entire campus?

Bingo!


http://www.blueoregon.com/2006/03/raising_tuition.html

The link provides a politically charged accusation, so take it for what it is worth, but it decribes in detail the trouble of higher education in Oregon.

[OldAggieAlum]

Western Oregon has struggled at the D-II level, so would not be likely to be looking at a move to I-AA anyway. I wouldn't be suprised if Westhern Oregon and Humboldt either dropped back down to D-III or dropped football entirely.

Western Washington seems to have the most potential, but is not likely to be looking at moving up any time soon either. I would like to see them move up because they are closer to where I live than any current I-AA school. They have done well at the D-II level, have a good stadium, are in a location that is fairly easy for travel and a desirable place to visit. D-II seems to be a good fit for them except for the lack of football opponents. This might be enough of a problem for them to consider moving up at some point. There are more I-AA than D-II schools near the Pacific Northwest, so maybe there's hope. I enjoyed watching several Western Washington/UC Davis games before UCD moved up.

Central Washington seems less likely, but CWU and WWU would probably either both stay at D-II or move up to I-AA together. Both schools seem to be committed to their football programs, but are very frustrated by scheduling issues.

[aggie6thman]

Future of Slac State Football...

http://mud.mm-a1.yimg.com/image/106071300

[slostang]

What do the fans of the GWFC think about University of San Diego? San Diego seems like a great place for I-AA scholarship football. They are one of the top I-AA mid major teams and have a well known coach in Harbaugh. California has a lot of high school football talent and only has three I-AA scholarship programs (Cal Poly, UC Davis and Sacramento State). Ten of the sixteen teams in the I-AA playoffs last year had at least one player from California. Cal Poly is the closest to San Diego and they are a five hour drive away. San Diego area is a hot bed of high school talent and is only 1 hour drive from Los Angles, one of the biggest hot beds of high school talent. It seems to me that if USD offered scholarships, they would have no problem keeping some of the California talent at home.

As for fans, San Diego is a beautiful city and would a great trip every other year.

[aggie6thman]

I think that USD would be a good addition to the GWFC, if they offered schollies. I think that it would be a great move for them as well. They could still maintain their rivalries (if they have any with the Ivy league teams) but save a bunch on travel costs. It would be fun to make a road trip to SD every other year. We play them this year, so after that, I will know for sure.

[OrneryAggie]

It sounds like a good idea but I doubt it's feasible to go full scholarship. Adding 63 men's scholarships would mean adding 63+ women's. And with an average home attendance of just 3200 fans I doubt they could justify the move. But who knows, maybe the money saved on travel by playing western schools instead of the pioneer league could offset some of that. And of course now there's the added benefit of getting big BCS paydays. Is there any history (in football) between USD and SDSU?

The weirdest thing is that in a state as large as california there are only 3 private schools with DI football; USC, Stanford, and USD. That's pretty good company for the Toreros.

[slostang]

It sounds like a good idea but I doubt it's feasible to go full scholarship. Adding 63 men's scholarships would mean adding 63+ women's. And with an average home attendance of just 3200 fans I doubt they could justify the move. But who knows, maybe the money saved on travel by playing western schools instead of the pioneer league could offset some of that. And of course now there's the added benefit of getting big BCS paydays. Is there any history (in football) between USD and SDSU?

The weirdest thing is that in a state as large as california there are only 3 private schools with DI football; USC, Stanford, and USD. That's pretty good company for the Toreros.
I would think moving to the GWFC and playing teams from the GWFC and Big Sky would help with attendance. Being able to play I-A games would help with the money. I had not thought of tittle IX requirements. They would be tougher to over come.

[Green Cookie Monster]

http://aggiepack.com/graphics/Pictures/football/goldenhorseshoe2.jpg

which #6 are you in that picture? Is it Dopey, Stumpy, Geeky or Sneezy?

Can't you read? Why would the university spend $9M for a football fieldhouse?

[OrneryAggie]

Another thing about WWU and CWU is that they both have decent club rugby programs that compete well with their Pac10 neighbors. CWU was second in their league to Washington St, ahead of Ore St, U Oregon, and U Washington. I think that's a good sign as to how the general student population compares to other DI universities.

[Green Cookie Monster]

I think that USD would be a good addition to the GWFC, if they offered schollies. I think that it would be a great move for them as well. They could still maintain their rivalries (if they have any with the Ivy league teams) but save a bunch on travel costs. It would be fun to make a road trip to SD every other year. We play them this year, so after that, I will know for sure.

USD would be slaughtered. It would be St. Mary's times 2. They are in the shadow of the Aztecs and Chargers, plus soccer is a big pull.

[Aggie71]

I don't care what the politics are ( call me Mr. Cheney or Rumsfeld ). The GWFC is a fabulous football conference with great tradition (old and new).

I haven't seen any other conference member fans try to take care of each other like we do!!! It's been an amazing evolution. I hope our AD's listen to the fans and keep it together. Bison, Wabbits, Mustangs, T'birds and AGs. Plus traditional OOC folks.

However this is caleeefornia and wir kanst kenne.

'71

[slostang]

USD would be slaughtered. It would be St. Mary's times 2. They are in the shadow of the Aztecs and Chargers, plus soccer is a big pull.
They would be slaughter with no scholarships, but with 63 scholarships I think they would be formidable.

[blukeys]

It sounds like a good idea but I doubt it's feasible to go full scholarship. Adding 63 men's scholarships would mean adding 63+ women's. And with an average home attendance of just 3200 fans I doubt they could justify the move. But who knows, maybe the money saved on travel by playing western schools instead of the pioneer league could offset some of that.



On paper there would be added costs and they would be significant since the school would have to list at least 63 + scollies as a liability on their balance sheet. I have always questioned this as this is not a true out of pocket expense. The Idea that schools are "losing" money on football is in part an accounting exercise and rest on assumptions that are in tune with Generally Accepted Accounting Practices (GAAP) but are in no way accurately reflected in terms of what a school actually "spends" on football.

When a school lists a scolly as a liability they assume 2 things neither of which may be true. One, is that a student - athlete would attend that particular school regardless or whether football was a sport or not. The other assumption is that a scholarship athlete is taking the place of a student who would pay for a slot at that school. These assumptions may be more accurate at a small private school with limited enrollment, and /or limited dorm space. They become less accurate at a school with a larger enrollment and / or dorm space.

The main question is Do schools actually reject paying applicants when they accept a scholarship athlete and if so how many? My argument is that schools reject darned few PAYING students to accept scholarship athletes. In fact, the only way one could determine this is to investigate the individual programs that athletes are pursuing, but to argue that one extra student in a survey course on Child Psychology (required for Education Majors) "costs" the school extra money is ridiculous. One or 20 extra students in a lecture class of 350 costs the school nothing. I could argue the same for Dining Hall Costs or Dorm rooms (unless there is a scarcity of dorm rooms and the school actually "pays" to house students. In short many of the "costs" associated with educating a student such as faculty salaries, classroom space, debt service, Administrative costs, and Other employment costs are the same whether there is a scholarship athlete in the classroom or not.

Some programs offered at Schools are truly limited in that they have an upper limit of the students accepted. Delaware actually has one student who falls into this category. J.T. LAWS a transfer from Ivy League U. of Pennsylvania was accepted into the Physical Therapy progam at Delaware which has a limit on the number students accepted. In this one case Delaware is losing actual revenue from a student who would be paying full tuition and room and board otherwise. Since this is a 5 year program resulting in a Master's Degree, Delaware will also lose Grad Student Tuition for his final year. This however is the exception. Most athletes take much more traditional academic pathways and are much less of an out of pocket expense. It would take the skills of a cost accountant to analyze the true costs of scollys to any school. Without a doubt the costs listed and reported are over stated. I would love to see a real analysis of "out of pocket" expenses done by a competent cost accountant on the true state of the costs of football at any one school.

[aggie6thman]

http://aggiepack.com/graphics/Pictures/football/goldenhorseshoe2.jpg

which #6 are you in that picture? Is it Dopey, Stumpy, Geeky or Sneezy?

Can't you read? Why would the university spend $9M for a football fieldhouse?

None of the above. I am standing just to our left of #23 Dan Elbanna. Maybe slac wants to at least try and be competitive. I don't know, I am out of the loop on that side of the causeway.

[Husky Alum]

On paper there would be added costs and they would be significant since the school would have to list at least 63 + scollies as a liability on their balance sheet. I have always questioned this as this is not a true out of pocket expense. The Idea that schools are "losing" money on football is in part an accounting exercise and rest on assumptions that are in tune with Generally Accepted Accounting Practices (GAAP) but are in no way accurately reflected in terms of what a school actually "spends" on football.

When a school lists a scolly as a liability they assume 2 things neither of which may be true. One, is that a student - athlete would attend that particular school regardless or whether football was a sport or not. The other assumption is that a scholarship athlete is taking the place of a student who would pay for a slot at that school. These assumptions may be more accurate at a small private school with limited enrollment, and /or limited dorm space. They become less accurate at a school with a larger enrollment and / or dorm space.

The main question is Do schools actually reject paying applicants when they accept a scholarship athlete and if so how many? My argument is that schools reject darned few PAYING students to accept scholarship athletes. In fact, the only way one could determine this is to investigate the individual programs that athletes are pursuing, but to argue that one extra student in a survey course on Child Psychology (required for Education Majors) "costs" the school extra money is ridiculous. One or 20 extra students in a lecture class of 350 costs the school nothing. I could argue the same for Dining Hall Costs or Dorm rooms (unless there is a scarcity of dorm rooms and the school actually "pays" to house students. In short many of the "costs" associated with educating a student such as faculty salaries, classroom space, debt service, Administrative costs, and Other employment costs are the same whether there is a scholarship athlete in the classroom or not.

Some programs offered at Schools are truly limited in that they have an upper limit of the students accepted. Delaware actually has one student who falls into this category. J.T. LAWS a transfer from Ivy League U. of Pennsylvania was accepted into the Physical Therapy progam at Delaware which has a limit on the number students accepted. In this one case Delaware is losing actual revenue from a student who would be paying full tuition and room and board otherwise. Since this is a 5 year program resulting in a Master's Degree, Delaware will also lose Grad Student Tuition for his final year. This however is the exception. Most athletes take much more traditional academic pathways and are much less of an out of pocket expense. It would take the skills of a cost accountant to analyze the true costs of scollys to any school. Without a doubt the costs listed and reported are over stated. I would love to see a real analysis of "out of pocket" expenses done by a competent cost accountant on the true state of the costs of football at any one school.

First of all, scholarship costs don't go on any balance sheet I've ever audited in accordance with GAAP. Scholarship costs go on an income statement as an expense.

People who consider scholarships a true "Expense" are taking the economic viewpoint that there's an opportunity cost (as you mention) in that there's only a fixed number of slots in a school, and taking Joe Football on scholy is a "money loser" as opposed to taking Jane Paying Student. You are also correct, that it's much more of an issue at private schools vs. funded public schools.

I actually did a cost accounting exercise when I was at Northeastern, and what you realize is that schools make money on weird things - housing is a HUGE profit center for schools, so the 126 beds a school doesn't "sell" to paying students, is a decent amount of money to give to the athletic department.

The marginal cost of feeding a student, or putting them in a classroom is somewhat negligible up to about 250 students (mind you, I did my exercise in 1990), so going full scholy and adding 126 scholie's to be Title IX compliant isn't a big deal from that standpoint.

Given how a school has to account for its Revenues and expenses in accordance with GAAP (whether it be public or private), results in a lower "gross revenue" number from a scholarship point of view, as "revenues" for a college are based on total number of students x base tuition. Then there's an adjustments number that shows scholarship money and other grants in aid - which reduces revenue, in order to arrive at the "net" revenue number a university brings in from paying students.

If you have a school that only has 4-5,000 kids, the 126 scholies at $20K is a pretty big number. If you have 20,000 students, the 126 scholies at a blended in state/out of state tuition is a much smaller number.

Many schools both public and private "charge" the athletic department for their costs, in order to track the "profit and loss" from having an athletic department. It's an internal tracking, but it's done as a measuring stick for the benefit of the AD and the VP of Finance for the school.

Rather than bore everyone with the accounting impliations of this, bluekeys if you want to talk off line, let me know and we can discuss.

caveat - I'm not giving any accounting advice, so don't rely on it. Neither myself nor my firm are liable for your reliance on anything I've said here.

[dbackjon]

Husky Alum - of course, that assumes that the dorms are full, and that the non-schollie athletes playing today are paying 100% of dorm costs.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

If the Mid-Con absorbed the GWFC would it have to wait the 6 years (or whatever the rule is) to become official or could an auto-bid be earned sooner?
If the membership remained the same and all that changed was the sponsorship, then most likely no. The A10 will shift to CAA Football and will not have to wait 6 years.

[RabidRabbit]

Currently, there are 14 schools playing football in these two conferences, Big Sky & Great West. At max, the Big Sky goes to 12 schools. This would leave somebody without a conference. As SDSU & NDSU are finding out in other sports, being an indy isn't where you want to be. SUU and Poly have experienced being an indy in football. And with a 12 member BSC, getting games out west, will make this year's scramble for games by the Great West members look mild.

The Great West needs to remain, expand, and be the principal alternative to the Big Sky for schools out west looking for an option to conference in.

This doesn't address the other sports, but it opens the west for FOOTBALL expansion. Hopefully, the Mid-con, United (name your sport) Conference, Big West, Pacific Coast, Mt. West, WAC create enough opportunities to Uppity NCC, RMAC, West coast D-11's to move up.

Only the Big Sky out west. No (extremely limited) opportunities for D-1 expansion in the west (and leave somebody trying to survive indy style). Both Sky and Great West, could absorb another 12 schollies schools within existing framework.

[OrneryAggie]

Excellent discussion. I've often wondered about the true cost of scholarships, especially considering the huge difference between in-state and out-of-state tuition in the UC system. (only 18 of UCD's 624 athletes are out-of-state).

One other thing that's hard to measure is what effect football has on recruiting non-athlete students. Is USD more likely to expose themselves to potential students by playing similar (academically) institutions in the midwest/northeast or by playing large public universities out west? While they may 'lose' 126 spots to scholarhip atheltes they might be able to recruit 126, or more, paying students.


USD would be slaughtered. It would be St. Mary's times 2. They are in the shadow of the Aztecs and Chargers, plus soccer is a big pull.

With scholarships USD would be better than St Mary's. Remember St Mary's was only around 50% funded.

I think being in SDSU's shadow may also play a role in this. Currently USD can say they're playing a purer form of football (ie not driven by $$$) and avoid direct comparisons to the aztecs. A move to scholarships and the GWFC will definitely changs USD's image, at least as a football playing university.

As for the Chargers, do they even cast a shadow?

[slostang]

I have always been a big fan of Cal Poly athletics and football having played football at Cal Poly, but since Cal Poly football has gone from indy status to the GWFC my interest has gone up considerably. Playing the same school year in and year out helps form rivalries that helps with interest. That is how I ended up on this discussion board and others. When the announcement came that Cal Poly was going to compete in the newly formed GWFC the first thing I did was go to the internet to learn more about the five (at the time St Mary's and UNC were part of it) other schools. That led me to their fan boards which led me to AGS. Now I am a fan of college football all year instead of Sept. through December.

I think that playing in the GWFC woulld help USD a lot, as would scholarships. I think a schedule that includes NDSU, SDSU, Cal Poly, Davis and SUU would create more interest than a schedule that includes Drake, Dayton, Morehead State, Davidson and Butler. Not only that but their occ schedule could still include teams from the Ivy league and they could add teams from the Big Sky and Southland not to mention a chance to schedule I-A money games. If they want to be a playoff team like Harbaugh says, join a conference that has teams that will be considered come playoff selection time.

[SactoHornetFan]

Well, here is another thing. If USD were to somehow keep Harbaugh as coach for a long-time, Im sure with his name-recognition and friends, San Diego could start to draw in money for scholarships.

[Green Cookie Monster]

Well, here is another thing. If USD were to somehow keep Harbaugh as coach for a long-time, Im sure with his name-recognition and friends, San Diego could start to draw in money for scholarships.

Maybe Jim Beam or Jack Daniels could make a financial donation in Harbaugh's name?

[RabidRabbit]

A very good discussion on conference realignment potentials.

:hurray: http://collegesportsinfo.com/conference-realignment-grid/ :hurray:

The continued survival of GWFC is very dependent on which conference (if any) adds SDSU/NDSU.

First assumption: That for the next 5 years, that Bison/Jacks are in the same conferences. They're semi-close to each other, they play virtually all the same sports, they are basically very equally tough schools. I just don't see them not sharing conference homes.

2nd assumption: That most schools that would move up will be looking to join an existing conference rather than create a new conference.

3rd assumption: That for our purposes here, the GWFC is a strong conference where the 63 schollies are provided at all schools. And anyone looking to join understand that.

Scenario 1: Big Sky invites SDSU/NDSU, and Dakotas accept. GWFC becomes SUU, Cal-Davis, Poly. They then scramble to get Sac St into Big West, and push other Big West schools to have football returned, and possibly San Jose St. return to 63 schollies. Failing that, indy, and conference with any D-II's that move up. Not pretty for these western schools.

Scenario 2: SDSU/NDSU invited to Mid-Con. GWFC solidifies for these 5 schools. Now SDSU/SUU/NDSU are in the same conference for all sports. Look for move up NCC's schools because now have a potential place to go to. Stabilizing GWFC, USF knows and pushes through adding schollies, and gets out of the horribly spread out Pioneer. (Gee, could the reduced travel expenses address some of the schollie $$ needed?)

Scenario 3: The GWFC schools decide that since they participate in all these same sports, that maybe the conference needs to be all sports. While not an immediate option, because need more than 5 schools, over time and expansion, especially if NCC schools added with the same sports, this may evolve.

All speculation, but we can dream toward success.

[Stang Fever]

Scenarioe 3 would never happen......Poly would never leave the Big West....because the Money support is not there for all other sports...Scenarioe 2 is a much more viable option at this point...the Mid Conn needs to add more teams

[RabidRabbit]

What do the fans of the GWFC think about University of San Diego? San Diego seems like a great place for I-AA scholarship football. They are one of the top I-AA mid major teams and have a well known coach in Harbaugh. California has a lot of high school football talent and only has three I-AA scholarship programs (Cal Poly, UC Davis and Sacramento State). Ten of the sixteen teams in the I-AA playoffs last year had at least one player from California. Cal Poly is the closest to San Diego and they are a five hour drive away. San Diego area is a hot bed of high school talent and is only 1 hour drive from Los Angles, one of the biggest hot beds of high school talent. It seems to me that if USD offered scholarships, they would have no problem keeping some of the California talent at home.

As for fans, San Diego is a beautiful city and would a great trip every other year.

USD would be a very fun addition. And SOOOO much nicer weather than for the other USD. But gee, maybe we'd get to a time of having USD & USD in the same conference. Of course, SDSU is playing SDSU in basketball already, and our GWFC partner, Poly, is playing both SDSU's this year.

[slostang]

Any University of San Diego fans out there? I remember there were a few around at playoff selection time. If so, what do you think about possibly adding scholarships and joinning the Great West Football Conference?

[RabidRabbit]

IF Jacks/Bison join the Mid-Con, that'll bring 3 schools in Great West also in Mid-Con.

Think Western IL would consider moving from Gateway to Great West? Is there a requirement that if XX # of schools sponsor a sport, then the conference must sponsor?

[CollegeSportsInfo]

IF Jacks/Bison join the Mid-Con, that'll bring 3 schools in Great West also in Mid-Con.

Think Western IL would consider moving from Gateway to Great West? Is there a requirement that if XX # of schools sponsor a sport, then the conference must sponsor?

It depends on the specific conference affiliaiton agreements. I'm 99% sure for instance, that if the Atlantic 10 were to sponsor football again, splitting from the CAA in the coming years, that Richmond would be required to play in the A10 rather than the CAA members who are a better regional fit. If a league were sponsored by the AE with A10 members like UMass and URI participating, I don't think Richmond would be required to participate IF the A10 didn't ask for it. As for W.Il., I'm not sure what the agreements are with the Gateway, etc. But I would think that they would remain int eh gateway unless the mid-Con invited the Dakota schools and sponsred football on it's own.

[JBB]

I like the Dakotas in the Mid Con.

Its become obvious that whatever happens to the Great Land Grants Basketball Teams will decide the fate of the GWFC.

When you look at the advantages of the GWFC/MID CON set up it seems the best for Division I:

1) It makes room for enevitable move ups
2) It preserves diversity in the NCAA DI-AA football ranks. The GWFC should be granted an auto bid.
3) It preserves and perpetuiates a viable DI sports conference with an auto bid to the NCAA BB Tournament.
4) It makes travel sense

[RabidRabbit]

I like the Dakotas in the Mid Con.

Its become obvious that whatever happens to the Great Land Grants Basketball Teams will decide the fate of the GWFC.

When you look at the advantages of the GWFC/MID CON set up it seems the best for Division I:

1) It makes room for enevitable move ups
2) It preserves diversity in the NCAA DI-AA football ranks. The GWFC should be granted an auto bid.
3) It preserves and perpetuiates a viable DI sports conference with an auto bid to the NCAA BB Tournament.
4) It makes travel sense

JBB - Great SUMMARY! When Great West has at least 6 members, and all playoff eligible, I believe that Great West will get the autobid. Can anyone say that if the Great West has at least six members, and the required years together, that we wouldn't be an autobid? If so, please explain.

[Aggie71]

Don't worry, if Humboldt has scheduling problems, the whole campus will end up in Garberville for "Reggae on the River" anyway...It is doubtful that any of them will find their way back to Arcata.

Born there, understand

'71

[blukeys]

First of all, scholarship costs don't go on any balance sheet I've ever audited in accordance with GAAP. Scholarship costs go on an income statement as an expense.

People who consider scholarships a true "Expense" are taking the economic viewpoint that there's an opportunity cost (as you mention) in that there's only a fixed number of slots in a school, and taking Joe Football on scholy is a "money loser" as opposed to taking Jane Paying Student. You are also correct, that it's much more of an issue at private schools vs. funded public schools.

I actually did a cost accounting exercise when I was at Northeastern, and what you realize is that schools make money on weird things - housing is a HUGE profit center for schools, so the 126 beds a school doesn't "sell" to paying students, is a decent amount of money to give to the athletic department.

The marginal cost of feeding a student, or putting them in a classroom is somewhat negligible up to about 250 students (mind you, I did my exercise in 1990), so going full scholy and adding 126 scholie's to be Title IX compliant isn't a big deal from that standpoint.

Given how a school has to account for its Revenues and expenses in accordance with GAAP (whether it be public or private), results in a lower "gross revenue" number from a scholarship point of view, as "revenues" for a college are based on total number of students x base tuition. Then there's an adjustments number that shows scholarship money and other grants in aid - which reduces revenue, in order to arrive at the "net" revenue number a university brings in from paying students.

If you have a school that only has 4-5,000 kids, the 126 scholies at $20K is a pretty big number. If you have 20,000 students, the 126 scholies at a blended in state/out of state tuition is a much smaller number.

Many schools both public and private "charge" the athletic department for their costs, in order to track the "profit and loss" from having an athletic department. It's an internal tracking, but it's done as a measuring stick for the benefit of the AD and the VP of Finance for the school.

Rather than bore everyone with the accounting impliations of this, bluekeys if you want to talk off line, let me know and we can discuss.

caveat - I'm not giving any accounting advice, so don't rely on it. Neither myself nor my firm are liable for your reliance on anything I've said here.


I appreciate your caveat and after spending too much time with lawyers and accountants, I know what it means. I will contact you as most on this board do not want to hear an accounting argument regarding costs of scholarships. :D :D :D