NEC schools must give teams resources needed to compete

[aceinthehole]

Editorial from the Asbury Park Press regarding the NEC's (financial) commitment to football.

Good news is that it appears there is support from some NEC schools to increase the current league limit of 40 schollys.


As far as the conference goes, Rhode Island will play football in the NEC beginning in 2013, and the Rams are coming in an effort to reduce costs as they reduce their number of scholarships.

That certainly isn’t a good sign.

But there remains some support among the school presidents within the conference to increase the number of scholarships, if not to 63 then to a number closer to that than the 40 they’re set to expand to in 2013.
http://www.app.com/article/20110903/NJSPORTS/309030079/NEC-schools-must-give-teams-resources-needed-to-compete

[Brad82]

This is a pretty good article.
A little negative,too bad he did not wait two weeks after Monmouth beat Nova and CCSU. Also,if someone said 5,10,20 years ago that Sacred Heart would beat Dartmouth,they would have sent the men in white coats! The NEC is on the upswing.
Re. URI he makes no mention of travel costs,a major factor in this.

[danefan]

I don't see the NEC raising scholarships limits anytime in the next 5 years.

From recent conversations I've had, the Albany AD and President are dead set on finding a full scholarship home for Albany for the very near future. Is that the NEC? I doubt it but who knows.

The NEC would be smart to raise the limit to allow for FBS counter status. That will also allow the teams to be nationally competitive. 40 rides isn't going to do it.

[M Ruler]

I don't see the NEC raising scholarships limits anytime in the next 5 years.

From recent conversations I've had, the Albany AD and President are dead set on finding a full scholarship home for Albany for the very near future. Is that the NEC? I doubt it but who knows.

The NEC would be smart to raise the limit to allow for FBS counter status. That will also allow the teams to be nationally competitive. 40 rides isn't going to do it.

Agree completely. Everyone that wants 57 scholarships(Albany, CCSU, Monmouth) stays in the NEC and those that do not (SFPA, SHU, WAG, and I believe Robert Morris) should move to an expanded Pioneer League. I am not sure where Duquesne or Rhode Island would stand on this issue.

No question Albany wants to be at 63. I still think it is a mistake they didnt go to the Big South w SBU. I know that no one really cares if we are playing Liberty or SFPA. To the average fan it is the same. People really dont pay that much attention if Montana or Georgia Southern were on the schedule. Play Yale and Harvard or better yet a money game with BC, Syracuse, UCONN or West Point and now everybody is interested.

If we had moved to the Big South with at least 57 rides and a few $ games scheduled then the Albany folks would be speaking about building out their 5 year old facility to seat 15,000 as opposed to building a new facility now for 6,000.

As I said on "Big Purple Fans" this whiole process has been a cluster F___K from the start.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The NEC would be smart to raise the limit to allow for FBS counter status. That will also allow the teams to be nationally competitive. 40 rides isn't going to do it.

I'm really not all that sure about that. Albany could, for example, have some athletes go through the need-based system and turn the loans into grants, like the Patriot League has done for a long time. That's why Colgate last year was a "counter" for Syracuse even though they didn't have 63 "scholarships" as most schools understand the term.

[danefan]

I'm really not all that sure about that. Albany could, for example, have some athletes go through the need-based system and turn the loans into grants, like the Patriot League has done for a long time. That's why Colgate last year was a "counter" for Syracuse even though they didn't have 63 "scholarships" as most schools understand the term.

The NEC 40 maximum includes grant-in-aid and scholarship. Whatever the school wants to call it, they still can't have more than 40 or a combination above it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The NEC 40 maximum includes grant-in-aid and scholarship. Whatever the school wants to call it, they still can't have more than 40 or a combination above it.

I see. The reason I mention the hybrid model is that it's seen as a "third way" between all grant-in-aid and 63 schollies in the whole PL debate. I've wondered if it's possible for both the NEC and Patriot to adopt something similar. But it sounds like the NEC wants a true scholarship restriction of 40, so I'm not sure if that can work for you guys.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm really not all that sure about that. Albany could, for example, have some athletes go through the need-based system and turn the loans into grants, like the Patriot League has done for a long time. That's why Colgate last year was a "counter" for Syracuse even though they didn't have 63 "scholarships" as most schools understand the term.

C'mon, LFN - the PL has a proud tradition of shaving the rules ever since Fielding "Hurry Up" Yost donned a Leopard sweater in 1896. You know that. Blackballed by Penn for 120 years, some say that the whole National Intercollegiate Athletic Association (later NCAA) thing in 1906 was our fault. And here's where Big Ivy has all of us beat - they can turn a 63 scholarship limit in 106 full, free tuition packages without anybody really noticing.

[Go...gate]

Sounds like the Patriot League has some company when it comes to wrestling with the scholarship aid issue.

[DetroitFlyer]

The NCAA should do the right thing and DROP the athletic scholarship minimum for a Division I team to be considered a counter for an FBS team. Oh wait, this is the NCAA we are talking about here.... Is the NEC up for a new battle with the NCAA? Maybe if the NEC, PL, Ivy League and PFL got together and lobbied as one.... Let's see, that is 33 teams currently that the NCAA is finding another way to shaft.... Well, that is only about 25% to 30% of Division I FCS.... (I did not look up the number of FCS teams but I seem to recall it is around 122 or so....)

Not too many organizations in the land that can shaft 25% to 30% of their members and get away with it.... Not only do they get away with it, no one from the teams and conferences impacted even bothers to complain.... Unreal. Sometimes it is very obvious that most here at AGS have either an outright or well hidden FBS wannabee syndrome.

[aceinthehole]

Sounds like the Patriot League has some company when it comes to wrestling with the scholarship aid issue.

Not the same at all.

In the PL, it is a deeply held philosophical issue on whether to allow league institutions to offer athletic-based aid for football players.

In the NEC is a simple budgetary/fiscal resource issue.

[danefan]

The NCAA should do the right thing and DROP the athletic scholarship minimum for a Division I team to be considered a counter for an FBS team. Oh wait, this is the NCAA we are talking about here.... Is the NEC up for a new battle with the NCAA? Maybe if the NEC, PL, Ivy League and PFL got together and lobbied as one.... Let's see, that is 33 teams currently that the NCAA is finding another way to shaft.... Well, that is only about 25% to 30% of Division I FCS.... (I did not look up the number of FCS teams but I seem to recall it is around 122 or so....)

Not too many organizations in the land that can shaft 25% to 30% of their members and get away with it.... Not only do they get away with it, no one from the teams and conferences impacted even bothers to complain.... Unreal. Sometimes it is very obvious that most here at AGS have either an outright or well hidden FBS wannabee syndrome.

Yale is already trying to go about this alone to get counter status for the Army game to celebrate the 100 years of the Yale Bowl.

It would be much smarter of the smart kids to gather up their friends and go after the NCAA together..........

[danefan]

Not the same at all.

In the PL, it is a deeply held philosophical issue on whether to allow league institutions to offer athletic-based aid for football players.

In the NEC is a simple budgetary/fiscal resource issue.

Agreed. The NEC is the case of the Haves vs. the Have Nots that control the vote. There are no Have Nots in the Patriot League.

[aceinthehole]

The NCAA should do the right thing and DROP the athletic scholarship minimum for a Division I team to be considered a counter for an FBS team.

We know that is never going to happen. However, does anyone know the status of past proposals or current legislation pending before any NCAA committee to lower the "bowl counter" requirements?

I think the NEC is holding out hope that the NCAA will lower the current scholarship requiremnet closer to 50. If that were to happen, I have no doubt the NEC would raise its limit to that new number.

[dgreco]

Agreed. The NEC is the case of the Haves vs. the Have Nots that control the vote. There are no Have Nots in the Patriot League.

I am not sure if Bryant is opposed to scholarships, but I think right now they only have 10 students on scholarships. Again, this could be a we can do it without, but if we need to we will add more or the school is opposed to scholarships.

I would be surprised if they are opposed though because the school is pretty open with "fully funding" most programs and bringing fulltime staffs.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Agreed. The NEC is the case of the Haves vs. the Have Nots that control the vote. There are no Have Nots in the Patriot League.

Granted, but with two caveats. First, Georgetown will claim that it is a "have not." Second, you have to remember how very small some of the PL schools are. Sixty-three scholarships is no small feat. On the plus side, most of the PL is not in need of large spending for facilities. Much of the NEC could use a boost there. Were I in Albany's shoes, I'd want to get that new stadium built before I took on the issue of increased scholarship spending. Once that's done, assuming it's on par with those nice digs out at Stony Brook, the increased ticket revenue will justify additional scholarship spending.

[danefan]

Granted, but with two caveats. First, Georgetown will claim that it is a "have not." Second, you have to remember how very small some of the PL schools are. Sixty-three scholarships is no small feat. On the plus side, most of the PL is not in need of large spending for facilities. Much of the NEC could use a boost there. Were I in Albany's shoes, I'd want to get that new stadium built before I took on the issue of increased scholarship spending. Once that's done, assuming it's on par with those nice digs out at Stony Brook, the increased ticket revenue will justify additional scholarship spending.

Ticket sales are going to be stagnant playing in the NEC. You need scholarships and a stadium. One or the other won't work.

And btw, ground breaking is late November on the stadium.

[bulldog10jw]

And btw, ground breaking is late November on the stadium.

With what, a jackhammer? :D

[Bogus Megapardus]

With what, a jackhammer? :D

Nonsense. It's Albany; a jackhammer would never do. Snowshoes, ice fishing drills and a dog team might get you down to the permafrost, at best. I was born and raised there. Believe me, only our very good friends at Cornell and Colgate could appreciate it.

[danefan]

With what, a jackhammer? :D


Nonsense. It's Albany; a jackhammer would never do. Snowshoes, ice fishing drills and a dog team might get you down to the permafrost, at best. I was born and raised there. Believe me, only our very good friends at Cornell and Colgate could appreciate it.

That's what I originally thought too, but apparently the type of excavation work that needs to be done can be done well into the deep winter.

[Go...gate]

We know that is never going to happen. However, does anyone know the status of past proposals or current legislation pending before any NCAA committee to lower the "bowl counter" requirements?

I think the NEC is holding out hope that the NCAA will lower the current scholarship requirement closer to 50. If that were to happen, I have no doubt the NEC would raise its limit to that new number.

Is this a possibility from the NCAA?

[danefan]

Is this a possibility from the NCAA?

There was some discussion last year about it.

[Bogus Megapardus]

That's what I originally thought too, but apparently the type of excavation work that needs to be done can be done well into the deep winter.

Let's all just hope that the engineers aren't Lehigh grads, for gawdsake.

On the bright side, there's nothing quite like the Adirondack foothills for an autumn football game. Get it built!

[MplsBison]

The NCAA should do the right thing and DROP the athletic scholarship minimum for a Division I team to be considered a counter for an FBS team. Oh wait, this is the NCAA we are talking about here.... Is the NEC up for a new battle with the NCAA? Maybe if the NEC, PL, Ivy League and PFL got together and lobbied as one.... Let's see, that is 33 teams currently that the NCAA is finding another way to shaft.... Well, that is only about 25% to 30% of Division I FCS.... (I did not look up the number of FCS teams but I seem to recall it is around 122 or so....)

Not too many organizations in the land that can shaft 25% to 30% of their members and get away with it.... Not only do they get away with it, no one from the teams and conferences impacted even bothers to complain.... Unreal. Sometimes it is very obvious that most here at AGS have either an outright or well hidden FBS wannabee syndrome.

On the contrary, schools that claim to have varsity football programs competing in NCAA DI football - yet give less than 40 full scholarship equivalencies worth of football-only athletic aid - are not really DI football teams.

They're liars. They're freeloaders. Wanting a seat at the table without having to pay for it.

They don't deserve more, they deserve less. Far less. They should be booted from the division, for starters.


How's that work for ya? Now take a hike and don't come back until your school starts paying for actual DI football, not pretend DI football funded at the club team level.

[DetroitFlyer]

On the contrary, schools that claim to have varsity football programs competing in NCAA DI football - yet give less than 40 full scholarship equivalencies worth of football-only athletic aid - are not really DI football teams.

They're liars. They're freeloaders. Wanting a seat at the table without having to pay for it.

They don't deserve more, they deserve less. Far less. They should be booted from the division, for starters.


How's that work for ya? Now take a hike and don't come back until your school starts paying for actual DI football, not pretend DI football funded at the club team level.

Wow, I really feel true sadness for all fans of NDSU.

[crusader11]

On the contrary, schools that claim to have varsity football programs competing in NCAA DI football - yet give less than 40 full scholarship equivalencies worth of football-only athletic aid - are not really DI football teams.

They're liars. They're freeloaders. Wanting a seat at the table without having to pay for it.


I guess Colgate going to the National Championship several years ago was a figment of my imagination. Lehigh defeating Northern Iowa last year must have been a dream as well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I guess Colgate going to the National Championship several years ago was a figment of my imagination. Lehigh defeating Northern Iowa last year must have been a dream as well.

The Rules, crusader11. Remember the Rules. xcoffeex

[MplsBison]

I guess Colgate going to the National Championship several years ago was a figment of my imagination. Lehigh defeating Northern Iowa last year must have been a dream as well.

Colgate and Lehigh give more than 40 full scholarship equivalencies worth of football-only athletic aid. They're just fine as DI football schools.

Obviously the fact that they distribute that aid amongst the players based on need rather than ability is deplorable, but they're still giving the athletic aid.

[MplsBison]

Wow, I really feel true sadness for all fans of NDSU.

And I feel sadness for fans of Dayton football.

DIII kicked you out for being cheaters.

FCS should kick you out for being freeloaders.


But really, what can say about a club football team that was given varsity status despite no money being put into the program? How much is your head coach even paid, $20k a year?

[hebmskebm]

The only hope I see for the future stability of the NEC is if the NCAA lowers the scholly limit OR the league adopts the "smoke em if you got em" policy of teams funding whatever they're comfortable with up to the current NCAA limit. For the "unambitious" NEC schools, that would mean playing at a comparative disadvantage (I'm sure the likes of Albany could easily double or even triple them in scholarships given) in return for a stable conference home. There are schools currently in the league who desperately want to be counters. They want BCS games. They want to be able to spend the resources needed to compete for the FCS Championship. And they're going to get there, one way or another.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Colgate and Lehigh give more than 40 full scholarship equivalencies worth of football-only athletic aid. They're just fine as DI football schools.

Obviously the fact that they distribute that aid amongst the players based on need rather than ability is deplorable, but they're still giving the athletic aid.

I'm going to break The Rules here. MplsBison, you have no idea whatsoever about the skills and talents - other than athletics - that allowed Colgate and Lehigh students to gain admission, and to receive a grant funded by the separately-endowed non-taxpayer-supported athletic department, at their schools. And I mean NO IDEA, whatsoever. Ask me; I know firsthand.

It's easy to scream that "they" should provide more funds for football. Try standing in the middle of that crowd and saying "we" should provide more money. Sounds like it's coming out of your own pocket? Well, it is.

How the F do you think we do it, anyhow? Provide a grant to a student-athlete whom you train to be a life-long success, and he or she will return the favor without screeching about how "they" ought to provide more and "they" don't understand.

Maybe the rest of society should to work that way. Novel idea? I think we'd all be better off.

One more thing - and it bears repeating here - we invented college football and the environment that surrounds it. The notion of paying the lowest bidder to to play at a coerced, taxpayer-funded institution, instead of playing at the school of his choice, originated as a means for the former to attempt to compete in a field that was all but lost to them.

Politics change, but people remain the same.

[MplsBison]

I'm going to break The Rules here. MplsBison, you have no idea whatsoever about the skills and talents - other than athletics - that allowed Colgate and Lehigh students to gain admission, and to receive a grant funded by the separately-endowed non-taxpayer-supported athletic department, at their schools. And I mean NO IDEA, whatsoever. Ask me; I know firsthand.

It's easy to scream that "they" should provide more funds for football. Try standing in the middle of that crowd and saying "we" should provide more money. Sounds like it's coming out of your own pocket? Well, it is.

How the F do you think we do it, anyhow? Provide a grant to a student-athlete whom you train to be a life-long success, and he or she will return the favor without screeching about how "they" ought to provide more and "they" don't understand.

Maybe the rest of society should to work that way. Novel idea? I think we'd all be better off.

One more thing - and it bears repeating here - we invented college football and the environment that surrounds it. The notion of paying the lowest bidder to to play at a coerced, taxpayer-funded institution, instead of playing at the school of his choice, originated as a means for the former to attempt to compete in a field that was all but lost to them.

Politics change, but people remain the same.

In other words:

1) scholarships are a derivative of socialism as they were invented as a means to steal top football talent away from good private schools and trick those talented young men into playing football for the government and selling themselves short of a good education

2) Good private schools shouldn't give scholarships because they should be true to how the game was intended to be played: by scholarly men who love the game for the game and accept no form of payment other than the privilege to play in front of the fans

3) therefore private schools (real schools) shouldn't have to give as many scholarships to be compliant with NCAA DI standards, because the donors who have to pay a lot of money to support endowments, that allow normal people to be able to actually afford the fraudulent $50k tuition bills, can't afford more donations for additional athletic scholarship endowments


*clears throat to prepare for a time consuming, lucid argument that will defeat - no, crush - your points*

ah-h-h-h-h-h-hem!!! ......................................Stanford.


Thank you folks, thank you. I'll be here the rest of the week and 'till noon Saturday!

[Dane96]

That's what I originally thought too, but apparently the type of excavation work that needs to be done can be done well into the deep winter.

Yep, reality is with today's construction tools...you can always break ground. The only issue with winter construction is truly whether you can get the proper mixture content to have concrete harden properly and w/o air bubbles caused by condensation. Any bubbling could cause major leaks later on.

[Bogus Megapardus]

In other words:

1) scholarships are a derivative of socialism as they were invented as a means to steal top football talent away from good private schools and trick those talented young men into playing football for the government and selling themselves short of a good education

2) Good private schools shouldn't give scholarships because they should be true to how the game was intended to be played: by scholarly men who love the game for the game and accept no form of payment other than the privilege to play in front of the fans

3) therefore private schools (real schools) shouldn't have to give as many scholarships to be compliant with NCAA DI standards, because the donors who have to pay a lot of money to support endowments, that allow normal people to be able to actually afford the fraudulent $50k tuition bills, can't afford more donations for additional athletic scholarship endowments


*clears throat to prepare for a time consuming, lucid argument that will defeat - no, crush - your points*

ah-h-h-h-h-h-hem!!! ......................................Stanford.


Thank you folks, thank you. I'll be here the rest of the week and 'till noon Saturday!


I would dispute the content of this post, but that would require that I understand what it says.

[Dane96]

Bogus...he's a douche. There is no simpler way to deal with him.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yep, reality is with today's construction tools...you can always break ground. The only issue with winter construction is truly whether you can get the proper mixture content to have concrete harden properly and w/o air bubbles caused by condensation. Any bubbling could cause major leaks later on.

Absolutely - the concrete can harden under water (i.e., Hoover Dam) but fractures resulting form cyclical thawing/melting will make it look like Western Avenue in no time. Adding very expensive polymers is the only method of ensuring stability in that kind of climate.

Polymers that withstand much wider temperature and humidity variance have been included in some recent structures such as the New Meadowland Stadium in New Jersey and the New Yankee Stadium. If the new UAlbany facility is built that way, potentially it could last for a millennium. Then again, it could be used as a shield against nuclear attack as well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogus...he's a douche. There is no simpler way to deal with him.

I should know better. Also, I should know better than to allow her message to impugn the many fine gentlemen who support their alma mater here without like-mindedness.

I will take pains here to point out that the new UAlbany stadium, as I understand it, is an alumni-supported facility resulting from a grass-roots campaign. So the people who want to see it built are the people whose rear ends will be sitting in the good seats becasue they cared enough about their team to make it happen.

Aut non licet mihi, quod volo, facere de meis?

[MplsBison]

Bogus...he's a douche. There is no simpler way to deal with him.

Yeah. But am I wrong here?!?!

The dude just took a swing at all public schools and athletic scholarships as the evil work of government!


I sure as hell am not going to apologize for subsidized, public higher education. I do not believe that only those who can afford or are willing to in-debt themselves to fraudulent $50k tuition payments should receive a good education.

[dgtw]

How are the <63 scholarship schools freeloading? If they want to go into the game at a paper disadvantage, that's their business. Should FCS create a BCS-esqu division of only those who want to put up the big bucks?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yeah. But am I wrong here?!?!

The dude just took a swing at all public schools and athletic scholarships as the evil work of government!


I sure as hell am not going to apologize for subsidized, public higher education. I do not believe that only those who can afford or are willing to in-debt themselves to fraudulent $50k tuition payments should receive a good education.

Conversely, you take "swings," methodically and unapologetically, at those who adopt an otherwise-minded point of view.

I haven't read enough to convenience myself that you are always correct.

[Dane96]

Yeah. But am I wrong here?!?!

The dude just took a swing at all public schools and athletic scholarships as the evil work of government!


I sure as hell am not going to apologize for subsidized, public higher education. I do not believe that only those who can afford or are willing to in-debt themselves to fraudulent $50k tuition payments should receive a good education.

Yes, you are wrong. I don't exactly think you got Bogus' meaning.

[danefan]

The only hope I see for the future stability of the NEC is if the NCAA lowers the scholly limit OR the league adopts the "smoke em if you got em" policy of teams funding whatever they're comfortable with up to the current NCAA limit. For the "unambitious" NEC schools, that would mean playing at a comparative disadvantage (I'm sure the likes of Albany could easily double or even triple them in scholarships given) in return for a stable conference home. There are schools currently in the league who desperately want to be counters. They want BCS games. They want to be able to spend the resources needed to compete for the FCS Championship. And they're going to get there, one way or another.

+1

Its going to eventually happen with or without the smaller schools. Do they want to come along for the ride and just watch?

[MplsBison]

How are the <63 scholarship schools freeloading? If they want to go into the game at a paper disadvantage, that's their business. Should FCS create a BCS-esqu division of only those who want to put up the big bucks?

The FCS should have a minimum scholarship equivalency limit. In other words, schools must award at least that minimum number of scholarship equivalencies worth of athletic aid to football players. At decent start point would be 40. Most Patriot schools would meet that.

They're free loading because they get to market themselves as having a varsity DI football team without having to pay the actual cost that affords a competitive team. You shouldn't be able to get something for nothing in this world.

[MplsBison]

Conversely, you take "swings," methodically and unapologetically, at those who adopt an otherwise-minded point of view.

I haven't read enough to convenience myself that you are always correct.

Lets forget all of your anti-government ideals and get back to the meat of the argument.

Mplsbison: schools who don't pay for a certain amount of athletic aid for football players should be kicked out of FCS
Bogus: at private schools, it's tough for donors - who support the athletic programs - to be able to afford more and more athletic aid


I hear what you're saying, but you get no sympathy from me. Your plight is the exact reason why the NCAA has a Division III. If that's the only model you can afford, then that's what you get.

[MplsBison]

Yes, you are wrong. I don't exactly think you got Bogus' meaning.

What was it?

[danefan]

The FCS should have a minimum scholarship equivalency limit. In other words, schools must award at least that minimum number of scholarship equivalencies worth of athletic aid to football players. At decent start point would be 40. Most Patriot schools would meet that.

They're free loading because they get to market themselves as having a varsity DI football team without having to pay the actual cost that affords a competitive team. You shouldn't be able to get something for nothing in this world.

They're not freeloading. Most of them would prefer to play DIII football. They were and are forced to play DI.

Get over it. There will never be a scholarship minimum in FCS. Its just not going to happen. The point of the subdivision is to level the playing field for those schools that want to play cost containment football.

[Fordham]

Not the same at all.

In the PL, it is a deeply held philosophical issue on whether to allow league institutions to offer athletic-based aid for football players.

In the NEC is a simple budgetary/fiscal resource issue.

Disagree. There's no true philosophical opposition to scholarships within he the PL. It's always about the money.

[danefan]

Disagree. There's no true philosophical opposition to scholarships within he the PL. It's always about the money.

Then the difference is: real money issues versus fake money issues.

There isn't a shortage of money at any Patriot League school.

[DFW HOYA]

Then the difference is: real money issues versus fake money issues.
There isn't a shortage of money at any Patriot League school.

And the grounds along Georgetown's MSF are paved with gold from the 1980's basketball teams.

[Go...gate]

And I feel sadness for fans of Dayton football.

DIII kicked you out for being cheaters.

FCS should kick you out for being freeloaders.

But really, what can say about a club football team that was given varsity status despite no money being put into the program? How much is your head coach even paid, $20k a year?



MplsBison, your statements - and their tone - are way out of line and beneath the dignity of this board. Please cease and desist immediately.

[Fordham]

Then the difference is: real money issues versus fake money issues.

There isn't a shortage of money at any Patriot League school.

Disagree.

For Lafayette to convert to scholarships requires real dollars to be spent on their women's programs as well.

For Georgetown to compete with a full scholarship PL real dollars need to be spent or else the competitive gap is expected by them to widen.

Real money issues, not philosophical ones. Deep pocket donors at either place who would put the right number of zeros on their check would get both on board with scholarships.

Truth be told, i dont know what a 'fake money issue' is.

[danefan]

And the grounds along Georgetown's MSF are paved with gold from the 1980's basketball teams.


Disagree.

For Lafayette to convert to scholarships requires real dollars to be spent on their women's programs as well.

For Georgetown to compete with a full scholarship PL real dollars need to be spent or else the competitive gap is expected by them to widen.

Real money issues, not philosophical ones. Deep pocket donors at either place who would put the right number of zeros on their check would get both on board with scholarships.

Truth be told, i dont know what a 'fake money issue' is.

Your schools have no clue what real money issues are.

Not allocating funds that are more than plenty at your universities (check the endowment numbers) to athletics and football facilities is precisely a philosophical issue.

Most of our schools, on the other hand,have zero dollars to allocate despite the desire to do so.

Drastically different IMO.

[DFW HOYA]

Not allocating funds that are more than plenty at your universities (check the endowment numbers) to athletics and football facilities is precisely a philosophical issue. Most of our schools, on the other hand,have zero dollars to allocate despite the desire to do so.

No, MplsBison has not taken over Danefan's sccount, but the logic is remarkably similar to an argment shot down on this board last year.

A college's endowment numbers are not relevant to athletics and facilities expenses when endowments are heavily restricted--and most are. A $10 million gift to Georgetown's medical school can only go to that medical school as a matter of fiduciary regulation. It can't buy a football scholarship anymore than a $10 million gift expressly for football can then be used to buy medical research--it isn't done.

[Go...gate]

No, MplsBison has not taken over Danefan's sccount, but the logic is remarkably similar to an argment shot down on this board last year.

A college's endowment numbers are not relevant to athletics and facilities expenses when endowments are heavily restricted--and most are. A $10 million gift to Georgetown's medical school can only go to that medical school as a matter of fiduciary regulation. It can't buy a football scholarship anymore than a $10 million gift expressly for football can then be used to buy medical research--it isn't done.

Absolutely right. Restricted gifts to a private institution are in essence a contract not to spend the money in another direction. If that contract is violated, the school will be sued for breach of fiduciary duty. This happened to Princeton, which was sued for millions by the heirs of Richardson Estate, the former family behind the Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company. The Richardsons argued that Princeton had misused funds which were intended to be restricted. The matter ultimately settled, but the legal wrangling went on for years.

[danefan]

No, MplsBison has not taken over Danefan's sccount, but the logic is remarkably similar to an argment shot down on this board last year.

A college's endowment numbers are not relevant to athletics and facilities expenses when endowments are heavily restricted--and most are. A $10 million gift to Georgetown's medical school can only go to that medical school as a matter of fiduciary regulation. It can't buy a football scholarship anymore than a $10 million gift expressly for football can then be used to buy medical research--it isn't done.


Absolutely right. Restricted gifts to a private institution are in essence a contract not to spend the money in another direction. If that contract is violated, the school will be sued for breach of fiduciary duty. This happened to Princeton, which was sued for millions by the heirs of Richardson Estate, the former family behind the Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company. The Richardsons argued that Princeton had misused funds which were intended to be restricted. The matter ultimately settled, but the legal wrangling went on for years.

I'm not saying you should use your endowment for anything other than it's intended purpose, but I can see how you can read that from my above statement. I'm just saying that generally speaking, a large endowment is indicative of the financial health of an institution.

The Patriot League schools are generally very financially healthy, would you not agree?

[MplsBison]

They're not freeloading. Most of them would prefer to play DIII football. They were and are forced to play DI.

Get over it. There will never be a scholarship minimum in FCS. Its just not going to happen. The point of the subdivision is to level the playing field for those schools that want to play cost containment football.

A football team should only be allowed to get what they pay for. That's how everything else in this country works.

Put DIII financial support into your program, that's what you should get.


Maybe there won't be a minimum (you don't know, of course) - but there should be. FBS has one, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[WestCoastAggie]

Colgate and Lehigh give more than 40 full scholarship equivalencies worth of football-only athletic aid. They're just fine as DI football schools.

Obviously the fact that they distribute that aid amongst the players based on need rather than ability is deplorable, but they're still giving the athletic aid.

Please,

Tell us ALL how you know this information? xcoffeex

[BlueHenSinfonian]

They're not freeloading. Most of them would prefer to play DIII football. They were and are forced to play DI.


The best solution would be for the NCAA to drop the rule saying an institution must play all (well, for the most part, yeah there are some loopholes) sports in one division.

If a school wants to have DI basketball, DII baseball, and DIII football, let them. Another might want DI football and DIII everything else. I could see mandating that for any given sport the men's and women's teams need to play in the same division, but otherwise let schools choose to support and emphasize the programs that they want, and allow them to still offer other sports in divisions that match the financial backing they are willing to give.

[danefan]

The best solution would be for the NCAA to drop the rule saying an institution must play all (well, for the most part, yeah there are some loopholes) sports in one division.

If a school wants to have DI basketball, DII baseball, and DIII football, let them. Another might want DI football and DIII everything else. I could see mandating that for any given sport the men's and women's teams need to play in the same division, but otherwise let schools choose to support and emphasize the programs that they want, and allow them to still offer other sports in divisions that match the financial backing they are willing to give.

I agree, but the small DIII schools didn't like it. Dayton ruined it for them all.

[MplsBison]

The best solution would be for the NCAA to drop the rule saying an institution must play all (well, for the most part, yeah there are some loopholes) sports in one division.

If a school wants to have DI basketball, DII baseball, and DIII football, let them. Another might want DI football and DIII everything else. I could see mandating that for any given sport the men's and women's teams need to play in the same division, but otherwise let schools choose to support and emphasize the programs that they want, and allow them to still offer other sports in divisions that match the financial backing they are willing to give.

The argument the DIII schools made was that Dayton was using money from it's DI basketball program to fund their DIII football team at a higher level that what should be possible for a non-scholarship team (ie, cheating).

So the only way that it could work would be if you could somehow force the school to keep entirely separate accounting of money for each team and prohibit the use of money from any one team to be used to fund anything for another team. Then maybe it could work.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

The argument the DIII schools made was that Dayton was using money from it's DI basketball program to fund their DIII football team at a higher level that what should be possible for a non-scholarship team (ie, cheating).

So the only way that it could work would be if you could somehow force the school to keep entirely separate accounting of money for each team and prohibit the use of money from any one team to be used to fund anything for another team. Then maybe it could work.

Maybe I don't fully understand the rules of DIII, but isn't it completely non scholarship all the way around? As far as team talent goes, all schools playing sports in DIII would be on equal footing in those sports. As far as money for facilities, coaches, market, etc, goes, there is already a huge disparity inside of current divisions. Savannah State, Nicholls State, Delaware, and JMU all have the same limits on scholarships and play in the same division but investment in the program is nowhere near the same level for the first two as it is for the second two.

Regardless of how you split it up some schools are going to have more money to spend on their athletic programs than other schools.

[aceinthehole]

Why anyone trys to respond to MplsBison is beyond me. It is a complete waste of time and energy.

[MplsBison]

Maybe I don't fully understand the rules of DIII, but isn't it completely non scholarship all the way around? As far as team talent goes, all schools playing sports in DIII would be on equal footing in those sports. As far as money for facilities, coaches, market, etc, goes, there is already a huge disparity inside of current divisions. Savannah State, Nicholls State, Delaware, and JMU all have the same limits on scholarships and play in the same division but investment in the program is nowhere near the same level for the first two as it is for the second two.

Regardless of how you split it up some schools are going to have more money to spend on their athletic programs than other schools.

Sure. I think their argument was like saying "if you're DIII in all sports - you have no money period, but if you're DIII in football and DI in basketball, then you have no money from football but you have money from bball". Something like that. So in other words, Dayton had more money to spend on its football program because of its bball program than the other full-DIII schools could ever make period.

[MplsBison]

Why anyone trys to respond to MplsBison is beyond me. It is a complete waste of time and energy.

It's entertainment. That's the only purpose for message boards in the first place - why not enjoy yourself? is it always raining in your world?

[401ks]

On the contrary, schools that claim to have varsity football programs competing in NCAA DI football - yet give less than 85 full scholarship equivalencies worth of football-only athletic aid - are not really DI football teams.

They're liars. They're freeloaders. Wanting a seat at the table without having to pay for it.

They don't deserve more, they deserve less. Far less. They should be booted from the division, for starters.

How's that work for ya? Now take a hike and don't come back until your school starts paying for actual DI football, not pretend DI football funded at the club team level.

FIFY from the viewpoint of (what many consider to be) the real and only Division I.

How's that work for ya? xeyebrowx

[401ks]

Why anyone tries to respond to MplsBison is beyond me. It is a complete waste of time and energy.

:o

You're right.

My bad.

There went five minutes of my life that I'll never get back. :(

[DetroitFlyer]

This is not all that complicated.... What we have here is yet another breakdown in the NCAA rules. A PFL or NEC or PL school today could potentially win the FCS National Championship, but that same team cannot be a counter for an FBS team. It is not a matter of what the odds are that a team from those leagues could win the NC, it is simply a breakdown in the rules structure that needs to be corrected, one way or another.... Long ago, (1991 to be exact), the NCAA decided that I-AAA football would not exist. It is just mind boggling that in 2011 rules like this still exist. Here is the bottom line, either you are an FCS team or you are not an FCS team. There should not be rules like this that attempt to divide the sub-division when the NCAA has already decided that a division is not going to happen.

[Go...gate]

Why anyone trys to respond to MplsBison is beyond me. It is a complete waste of time and energy.

I have no problem with almost everything that MPLS says (even though I disagree with it) and he certainly has a right to say it as well - BUT NOT the ad hominem attacks. I don't think this board has ever encouraged that kind of stuff. At the end of the day, we are all guests on this board and should behalf with some level of courtesy.

[MplsBison]

This is not all that complicated.... What we have here is yet another breakdown in the NCAA rules. A PFL or NEC or PL school today could potentially win the FCS National Championship, but that same team cannot be a counter for an FBS team. It is not a matter of what the odds are that a team from those leagues could win the NC, it is simply a breakdown in the rules structure that needs to be corrected, one way or another.... Long ago, (1991 to be exact), the NCAA decided that I-AAA football would not exist. It is just mind boggling that in 2011 rules like this still exist. Here is the bottom line, either you are an FCS team or you are not an FCS team. There should not be rules like this that attempt to divide the sub-division when the NCAA has already decided that a division is not going to happen.

Some PL teams are counters right now. They offer the required minimum 56.7 scholarship equivalencies to meet counter status.

On the other hand, PFL teams can not win the national championship. In order to do that, they would have to be selected to the playoffs.


Some NEC schools I feel bad for - they want to do the right thing and spend an appropriate amount on athletic aid, but can't because of the conference rules.

[MplsBison]

FIFY from the viewpoint of (what many consider to be) the real and only Division I.

How's that work for ya? xeyebrowx

You're not wrong. I hope someday NDSU will be awarding 85 scholarship equivalencies worth of athletic aid to football players. That would make me proud.

In the meantime - the NCAA has 3 separate, distinct divisions of college football beneath the FBS. It makes no logical sense for all three divisions to have the same minimum scholarship equivalency limit.

[Dane96]

Some PL teams are counters right now. They offer the required minimum 56.7 scholarship equivalencies to meet counter status.

On the other hand, PFL teams can not win the national championship. In order to do that, they would have to be selected to the playoffs.


Some NEC schools I feel bad for - they want to do the right thing and spend an appropriate amount on athletic aid, but can't because of the conference rules.

So you really mean, the PFL teams can win a NC...it's just harder to do.

Nitwit.