Proposal for a mid-major opportunity to prove their playoff worth...

[kardplayer]

To (sort of) answer the question as to whether non-schollies should get bids to the playoffs - which while possible today is extremely unlikely and obviously hasn't happened yet - give them the opportunity to prove it on the field.

Have the Mid-Major champion face off against the first team off the bubble that didn't make it into the playoffs (chronologically backwards - Youngstown, Cal Poly, Lehigh, Wofford, etc.).

If they win once or twice, then they could certainly make an argument that a mid-major is "worthy" of making the playoffs. If they get steamrolled all 5 years, then the case is made that even the best of the mid-majors isn't playoff ready.

Alternatively, make this an annual game until the mid-majors win or are consistently competitive. I've heard the argument often that the best teams in the Patriot League didn't get serious about competing until the playoff door was opened...

[kardplayer]

Note: This is essentially what the Super Bowl was at the beginning, until the Jets and Chiefs won and showed the AFL was "worthy" of being merged with the NFL - that's where I got the idea...

[OL FU]

I think the difference was that the AFL had already stepped up, spent the money and started stealing some of the NFL caliber players, ie, Broadway Joe and some others. I remember being that I was a big time Colts fan at the time. Crushed I was.

I understand the desire to be in the playoffs. Everyone keeps making the basketball comparison which I don't think is a good one because you can play basketball four nights in a row (not easy but it can be done). Also, I doubt there was a basketball team in the big dance that had not given the max scholarships (or equivalencies).

On the other hand, if it is going to happen, this would be a good way to do it.

[ngineer]

To (sort of) answer the question as to whether non-schollies should get bids to the playoffs - which while possible today is extremely unlikely and obviously hasn't happened yet - give them the opportunity to prove it on the field.

Have the Mid-Major champion face off against the first team off the bubble that didn't make it into the playoffs (chronologically backwards - Youngstown, Cal Poly, Lehigh, Wofford, etc.).

If they win once or twice, then they could certainly make an argument that a mid-major is "worthy" of making the playoffs. If they get steamrolled all 5 years, then the case is made that even the best of the mid-majors isn't playoff ready.

Alternatively, make this an annual game until the mid-majors win or are consistently competitive. I've heard the argument often that the best teams in the Patriot League didn't get serious about competing until the playoff door was opened...

Mechanically workable, yes; but, what 'bubble team' would want to play this game. Just been told you're not in the playoffs and now...behind door #3 you get to play________. In the infamous words of Ricky Watters in the late '90's, "For who, for what?" Don't see it happening..

[DFW HOYA]

The SWAC and MEAC's are a combined 0 for how many in the first round of the NCAA basketball tournament, yet no one is arguing that their bids be removed after five years. Hmmm...

[kardplayer]

Mechanically workable, yes; but, what 'bubble team' would want to play this game. Just been told you're not in the playoffs and now...behind door #3 you get to play________. In the infamous words of Ricky Watters in the late '90's, "For who, for what?" Don't see it happening..

That is definitely the hard part... it would really bank on the kids wanting to prove they really belonged and one more game before the season - and for the seniors their careers - end.

The other side of it would be that teams in a disappointing position often underperform (think teams that just miss a BCS bowl in football or get stuck in the play-in game or get a lousy seed in the hoops tourny)...

[kardplayer]

The SWAC and MEAC's are a combined 0 for how many in the first round of the NCAA basketball tournament, yet no one is arguing that their bids be removed after five years. Hmmm...

Who's talking about taking away a league's bid? Right now the mid-majors have absolutely no chance of getting into the tourny - this gives them a shot to prove that the committee needs to take a closer look at them.

I know the argument is that they are ELIGIBLE for the playoffs, but given no mid-major team has ever been selected, I think its fair to say that they need something to change if they are going to get in there. All I'm saying is, give 'em a chance...

[blukeys]

Who's talking about taking away a league's bid? Right now the mid-majors have absolutely no chance of getting into the tourny - this gives them a shot to prove that the committee needs to take a closer look at them.

I know the argument is that they are ELIGIBLE for the playoffs, but given no mid-major team has ever been selected, I think its fair to say that they need something to change if they are going to get in there. All I'm saying is, give 'em a chance...


The non-scolly's (or mid majors if you prefer) have the same chances as teams from the Big South or GWFC. If I recall a certain GWFC team did get an invite and won a first round game.

Also conference autobids are awarded every year by the NCAA. No conference has an automatic right to an auto bid. Technically, the NCAA can yank an auto bid any time it chooses to from the MEAC, OVC, or any other conference. I believe the vote actually occurs in June.

[Tod]

Who's talking about taking away a league's bid? Right now the mid-majors have absolutely no chance of getting into the tourny - this gives them a shot to prove that the committee needs to take a closer look at them.

I know the argument is that they are ELIGIBLE for the playoffs, but given no mid-major team has ever been selected, I think its fair to say that they need something to change if they are going to get in there. All I'm saying is, give 'em a chance...

Couldn't they just schedule a game or two during the regular season? It seems the A-10 gives plenty of mid-majors the chance to show their stuff.

[Tod]

The non-scolly's (or mid majors if you prefer) have the same chances as teams from the Big South or GWFC. If I recall a certain GWFC team did get an invite and won a first round game.

Also conference autobids are awarded every year by the NCAA. No conference has an automatic right to an auto bid. Technically, the NCAA can yank an auto bid any time it chooses to from the MEAC, OVC, or any other conference. I believe the vote actually occurs in June.

But comparing Cal-Poly to a non-scholly is not the same thing.

You're right, I believe the rule states that no more than half of the field can be auto-bids, but nothing says that more than half the field can't be at-large.

[kardplayer]

The non-scolly's (or mid majors if you prefer) have the same chances as teams from the Big South or GWFC. If I recall a certain GWFC team did get an invite and won a first round game.

Also conference autobids are awarded every year by the NCAA. No conference has an automatic right to an auto bid. Technically, the NCAA can yank an auto bid any time it chooses to from the MEAC, OVC, or any other conference. I believe the vote actually occurs in June.

Note: I'm NOT saying that I am convinced they are worthy. What I am saying is that its only fair to give them a chance to prove us all wrong.

Even then, I think they would remain as "at-large" eligible and not get an autobid. You may say that they are as eligible for the tourny as a Big South school, but Coastal Carolina was rumored to be in if they finished 10-1 with a weak schedule and San Diego didn't get in with the same record so mid-major "eligibility" is a big pile of ...

My point is, there's no way a mid-major conference will ever get a bid - autobid or otherwise - unless the playoffs expand or they sue for it. They may have the same chance IN WRITING as the Big South or GWFC, but they don't have the same chance in reality. Does anyone really think that the question "What about San Diego?" was asked during the playoff selection meeting last year?

Cal Poly got a bid because they proved, along with their conference, that they were capable during the year of competing with teams from a playoff conference.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of scheduling - but I know there's a ton of them - but lets not pretend that its easy for a team like Dayton to "schedule up" when the schools near them (the Gateway and the OVC primarily) use their OOC games on the Gateway/OVC matchups and I-A money games. Maybe that will change if/when the schedule goes to 12 games, but that's certainly uncertain. The GWFC have the benefit of giving the Big Sky teams to play that were closer to them than their other option - the mid-majors for the most part don't have that chance.

[blukeys]

Note: I'm NOT saying that I am convinced they are worthy. What I am saying is that its only fair to give them a chance to prove us all wrong.

Even then, I think they would remain as "at-large" eligible and not get an autobid. You may say that they are as eligible for the tourny as a Big South school, but Coastal Carolina was rumored to be in if they finished 10-1 with a weak schedule and San Diego didn't get in with the same record so mid-major "eligibility" is a big pile of ...

My point is, there's no way a mid-major conference will ever get a bid - autobid or otherwise - unless the playoffs expand or they sue for it. They may have the same chance IN WRITING as the Big South or GWFC, but they don't have the same chance in reality. Does anyone really think that the question "What about San Diego?" was asked during the playoff selection meeting last year?

Cal Poly got a bid because they proved, along with their conference, that they were capable during the year of competing with teams from a playoff conference.

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of scheduling - but I know there's a ton of them - but lets not pretend that its easy for a team like Dayton to "schedule up" when the schools near them (the Gateway and the OVC primarily) use their OOC games on the Gateway/OVC matchups and I-A money games. Maybe that will change if/when the schedule goes to 12 games, but that's certainly uncertain. The GWFC have the benefit of giving the Big Sky teams to play that were closer to them than their other option - the mid-majors for the most part don't have that chance.


They can prove us wrong by their scheduling and I don't mean middle of the pack Ivy League Schools. As for scheduling, Drake managed to get a game with UNI this year. Not only do I give them props for that but it proves that a Non-scolly can schedule a quality scolly school if they pursue it.

I really think your comparison between San Diego and Coastal Carolina is totally off the mark. Coastal has taken much heat on this board for a variety of things but no one can question their attempt to improve their schedule. Coastal scheduled, SC STATE the 2nd place team in the MEAC, JMU the 2004 National Champion, and Appalachian State the 2005 National Champion, as OOC opponents. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT???????????????? How about adding GSU, Delaware and Montana as well!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How does the Coastal's OOC schedule compare to Lehigh and other PL schools???

How is this OOC schedule inferior to San Diego's??

Anyone who asked, What about San Diego? need only to look at their schedule which included a host of D-2 and NAIA schools.

I am amazed that this Mid Major issue is constantly coming up when rational analysis has proven that no Mid Major team has had a better resume for being in the playoffs then any team that was invited as an at Large.

Colgate13 and 89Hen both analyzed in detail the best Mid Major teams of the last 7-8 years and found only one (I believe it was Duquesne 2002) that even had a remote argument for inclusion.


I have posted that objective criteria should be laid out so that mid majors can at least know the target they are shooting at. But in the end the playoffs are for determining a National Champion and not having a party where everyone is invited. If you know of a mid-major that could have won an NC that was excluded, let us all know. However, I have seen 13's and 89's analysis and I am hard pressed to argue with their interpretations.

[Tod]

Anyone who asked, What about San Diego? need only to look at their schedule which included a host of D-2 and NAIA schools.


I imagine that if San Diego wants to prove itself, any Big Sky or Great West team would much rather have a Div. I team on their schedule with a name as recognizable as San Diego than a Div. II team.

[AppGuy04]

Beating a team that DID NOT make the playoffs doesn't prove anything in my mind

[*****]

...Coastal Carolina was rumored to be in if they finished 10-1 with a weak schedule and San Diego didn't get in with the same record so mid-major "eligibility" is a big pile of ... Does anyone really think that the question "What about San Diego?" was asked during the playoff selection meeting last year?...No, San Diego was not considered because they did not have seven D-I wins.

[aceinthehole]

I really think your comparison between San Diego and Coastal Carolina is totally off the mark. Coastal has taken much heat on this board for a variety of things but no one can question their attempt to improve their schedule. Coastal scheduled, SC STATE the 2nd place team in the MEAC, JMU the 2004 National Champion, and Appalachian State the 2005 National Champion, as OOC opponents. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT???????????????? How about adding GSU, Delaware and Montana as well!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How does the Coastal's OOC schedule compare to Lehigh and other PL schools???


For the record, when talking "mid-majors" the top NEC teams should not be lumped with most other MAAC or Pioneer teams, they have scheduled similar to Coastal:

Central Connecticut has scheduled multiple A-10 teams and opens the season at GSU this year. And of course CCSU beat Colgate, a 2005 playoff team.

Albany has scheduled Delaware and Montana among others, and generally has one of the most difficult OOC schedules in I-AA. The Danes beat Towson when the were in the PL, and recently destroyed Fordham.

Stony Brook topped Bucknell last season and has scheduled Hofstra and Lehigh in the past. This season they play 3 A-10 teams (UMass, UNH, Hofstra)!

Monmouth has wins vs. Towson and Georgetown from the PL. They continue to schedule the likes of Lehigh and Lafayette and some A-10 teams.

[GannonFan]

Good point - all this talk about the mid-majors having no shot at a playoff bid is just that - talk. Play a good schedule, win most of it, meet all the criteria for playoff inclusion (i.e. play at least 7 DI games) and you have a good shot. Coastal was in last year until they blew it in the final seconds of the last game last year. Some NEC teams are consistently playing better schedules so they are half-way there - if they start winning more of those games they will get in. It's a pretty easy formula, but it's all about winning against good teams. If you don't do that, you don't have an argument to stand on when it comes to playoff talk. Pretty simple stuff.

[DetroitFlyer]

If you count the PFL Championship, San Diego had 7 D1 wins. Of course that means they played 12 games, ( 11-1 ), and I do not know the official wording of when the 7 games have to be played, ( 7/11 ) for example. But I still hold that the Mid-Majors are absolutely discriminated against when it comes to 1-AA playoff time. I am tired of hearing that we need to play tougher schedules and "prove" ourselves. Utter nonsense. The bottom line since 1993 is that we meet every requirement for our champion to obtain an automatic bid to the playoffs, the old guard that does not believe that we spend enough money on our programs keeps us locked out. Remember, we did not request to be placed in 1-AA. The NCAA determined that we had to move, we did, we comply with all NCAA regulations and we are absolutely excluded from the GOB's club. Make every excuse you want, it is simply not right! Now having said that, I must confess that the PFL, in all it's wisdom, will not even apply for an automatic bid.... That is a topic for another rant in the future.

[aceinthehole]

If you count the PFL Championship, San Diego had 7 D1 wins. Of course that means they played 12 games, ( 11-1 ), and I do not know the official wording of when the 7 games have to be played, ( 7/11 ) for example. But I still hold that the Mid-Majors are absolutely discriminated against when it comes to 1-AA playoff time. I am tired of hearing that we need to play tougher schedules and "prove" ourselves. Utter nonsense. The bottom line since 1993 is that we meet every requirement for our champion to obtain an automatic bid to the playoffs, the old guard that does not believe that we spend enough money on our programs keeps us locked out. Remember, we did not request to be placed in 1-AA. The NCAA determined that we had to move, we did, we comply with all NCAA regulations and we are absolutely excluded from the GOB's club. Make every excuse you want, it is simply not right! Now having said that, I must confess that the PFL, in all it's wisdom, will not even apply for an automatic bid.... That is a topic for another rant in the future.

Detroit - sorry I can't agree with you.

The PLF has not asked for an auto-bid, so its a moot point. Further, many teams did not have the proper number of DI wins. While you and other PFL fans may be clamoring for inclusion in the playoffs, your institutions do not feel the same way. They are happy to sponsor football for their students and hope to play like-minded institutions. It is a noble and good cause.

The MAAC does not have the NCAA required conference membership of 6 teams. Some teams (like DU or Marist) may be intersted in a playoff spot, but their only shot is as an at-large! If they can beat a few top teams in OOC, they will be considered.

As I've always stated the NEC has a much different sistuation. They meet all of the NCAA criteria for an auto-bid, have applied at least twice, and were denied without an official cause. This is an entirely different situation than other "mid-majors."

This has been debated long and hard on this board and clearly until their is a conference realignment nothing will change. So for the time being the top NEC have scheduled OOC against I-AA playoff contenders and must finish with results that warrant at-large consideration. Its pretty simple.

[GannonFan]

Gotta agree with Ace here, the PFL hasn't asked for an autobid so you can't say you've been denied that avenue. And that's still only half of the playoff field anyway. You know very well what you have to do to be considered for the at-large portion of the playoff field (good schedule and win) and there are numerous examples of teams throughout the years who were not part of conferences with auto-bids that still managed to make the playoffs, despite not being part of the club like you are insinuating. You seem to want to have the playoffs given to you rather than stepping up and earning it - that's where the difference lies.

Oh, and you can't count San Diego's last win as going to the 7 wins needed - you were only allowed 11 regular season games last year (San Diego didn't play Hawaii to qualify for the 12th) and therefore it can't be counted.

[maacfb]

Ace,

I know you love to point to CCSU's win over Colgate and the NEC's scheduling upgrade which is better than every other mid major conference therefore they deserve a shot. But if you take the other side of the issue, Marist beat the top teams in the NEC and they werent a playoff caliber team, they didnt even win the MAAC.

the reality is that scheduling big names doesnt mean anything unless you beat them and all of the mid major wins have come against middle to bottom of the pack scholarship teams, except for CCSU's win over Colgate. Towson was never a threat in the PL, Bucknell has been down lately and the same goes for the Fordham team who quit on the season and got embarassed by Albany (i think albany is the better team btw)

a playoff caliber team doesnt beat Colgate one week and get throttled by Rhode Island the next and than lose to a MAAC team. you could have an argument if you blew through mid major competition in decisive fashion and than beat Colgate and URI.

[aceinthehole]

Ace,

I know you love to point to CCSU's win over Colgate and the NEC's scheduling upgrade which is better than every other mid major conference therefore they deserve a shot. But if you take the other side of the issue, Marist beat the top teams in the NEC and they werent a playoff caliber team, they didnt even win the MAAC.

the reality is that scheduling big names doesnt mean anything unless you beat them and all of the mid major wins have come against middle to bottom of the pack scholarship teams, except for CCSU's win over Colgate. Towson was never a threat in the PL, Bucknell has been down lately and the same goes for the Fordham team who quit on the season and got embarassed by Albany (i think albany is the better team btw)

a playoff caliber team doesnt beat Colgate one week and get throttled by Rhode Island the next and than lose to a MAAC team. you could have an argument if you blew through mid major competition in decisive fashion and than beat Colgate and URI.

No doubt, I'm getting all the mileage I can out of the Colgate win :) and I never once said CCSU was a playoff worthy team. But regarding the URI loss, it was turnovers and specials teams that lost the game. If you review URI season stats you'll see CCSU played very well against the Rams on both sides of the ball and better than many A-10 teams, although the final score may not reflect that.

Regardless, the point is the NEC as a whole is improving (again, some more than others). The MAAC is wilting. Losing teams like G-town to the PL, Siena and Fairfield dropping football. It is a league hanging on by a thread.

Marist is a unique situation. Yes, last year the swept the NEC, including wins vs. the co-champs CCSU and Stony Brook. As I see they are able to get home games vs. some PL teams. I just don't see the long term stability of the MAAC. When SBU and UA leaves, the NEC is still in a better spot than other "mid-majors." Listen, I wouldn't mind if Marist wanted to replace SBU in the NEC for 2007.

[blukeys]

For the record, when talking "mid-majors" the top NEC teams should not be lumped with most other MAAC or Pioneer teams, they have scheduled similar to Coastal:

Central Connecticut has scheduled multiple A-10 teams and opens the season at GSU this year. And of course CCSU beat Colgate, a 2005 playoff team.

Albany has scheduled Delaware and Montana among others, and generally has one of the most difficult OOC schedules in I-AA. The Danes beat Towson when the were in the PL, and recently destroyed Fordham.

Stony Brook topped Bucknell last season and has scheduled Hofstra and Lehigh in the past. This season they play 3 A-10 teams (UMass, UNH, Hofstra)!



Monmouth has wins vs. Towson and Georgetown from the PL. They continue to schedule the likes of Lehigh and Lafayette and some A-10 teams.


I am well aware of the efforts of CCSU, AU, SBU and Monmouth in upgrading their programs and scheduling. I do not consider these schools as mid majors. I guess at worst I would call them Mid Major transitionals.

In the post you quoted I only compared CCU to San Diego. For the record Monmouth is on Delaware's schedule in 2007.

[*****]

Wait until you hear San Diego coach Jim Harbaugh on this coming week's I-AA WAVES... this guy is going for the jugular! He's not happy beating Marist (the NEC killer) and Ivy, he's going for UCD this year... and more. What more could you expect from a Harbaugh?

[Dane96]

I find it hard to believe that Harbaugh stayed on (even with his transgression) if San Diego weren't thinking about moving up.

If there is a school, other than the NEC schools we have discussed, which SHOULD BE MOVING UP....it is San Diego. They would be able to schedule well if they were fully scholly...and would have ZERO problem getting recruits.

It is a no-brainer.

[DetroitFlyer]

Everything I have read indicates that San Diego has no where near the funding to "move up" to scholarship football. I think what you see in Harbaugh is that he firmly believes that San Diego actually plays 1-AA football currently and there is no reason why his team cannot beat any team regardless of the number of scholarships an oponent may offer! It is far past due for all of you "1-AA" fans to realize that the PFL is 1-AA football, the top schools in the PFL can be competitive with other 1-AA conferences, and you may not need 63 scholarships to do it! I hope that Harbaugh is succesful and can prove my point. I say more power to him! I only wish more coaches and AD's in the PFL shared his vision. Unfortunately, I also think Harbaugh will jump at the first 1-A offer he can find, so if he does not prove his point quickly, ( this season? ), he may never prove his point.

[GannonFan]

It is far past due for all of you "1-AA" fans to realize that the PFL is 1-AA football, the top schools in the PFL can be competitive with other 1-AA conferences, and you may not need 63 scholarships to do it! .

Then beat someone! Geez. Dayton played a bad DII team and a DIII team as their only OOC games. The PFL as a whole played 6 games all year OOC against conferences that participate in the IAA playoffs and lost all 6 of them by a combined score of 307 to 65. And it's not like every game was against the best in IAA either - in the closest game (a 33-0 loss) Davidson was going up against VMI, a team some consider one of the worst IAA teams of all time. The margins of defeat in all 6 games were, by game: 35, 37, 55, 46, 33, 36. That's against the likes of UNI, Ill St, South Dakota St, Georgia Southern, VMI, and Murray St. UNI and GSU were playoff teams, Ill St was good, and SDSU was ok, but the other two were terrible. and they still won by about 5 TD's. I know you want the PFL to be respected, but it doesn't happen by proclamation - win some games against quality competition and the respect will come. The PFL is not there yet by any stretch of the imagination.

[OL FU]

:twocents: I have respect for the mid-majors and I consider them I-AA football. The arguments arise when the fight is over equality of talent and ability to win when, as Gannon fan aptly illustrated, no proof of such exist. Bad example on this board but I will use it anyway, Furman generally plays those down the road kitty cats, Clemson, very well. But we have not beat them for 60 plus years. It does not mean Clemson fans don't respect us, but I am not going to walk in Tiger Town and argue for a bowl appearance.:rolleyes:

[DetroitFlyer]

I seem to recall mighty Davidson beating Georgetown, at Georgetown last year.... Hmmmm.... The last time I checked, Georgetown plays in a conference that had 2 teams go the the playoffs last season.... Granted, the top 2 teams in the PFL, San Diego and Dayton did not play extremely strong OOC foes, although San Diego did beat Yale and barely lost to Princeton after thoroughly out playing them. Yeah, I know the Ivys do not go the playoffs, but to read this board it would seem most 1-AA fans would welcome them with open arms, ( not so with the PFL ). Ultimately, I think what Harbaugh will say is that his team is ready to take on any and all challengers regardless of scholarship status and win! There were many rumors last season that Harbaugh wanted to play Division 1-A San Diego State University.... I may be wrong, but we will have to listen and see. If he is successful, maybe he will drag the rest of the PFL along with him. I still believe that San Diego would have done as well as Lafayette in the playoffs last season, but alas, since no PFL team has ever been invited to the playoffs in 13 years, we will never know.

[OL FU]

The Yale win was a good one. Let's hope San Diego continues their success. I would stop mentioning Davidson, some of the SoCon folks might never re-cover from laughter.:rotateh: :twocents:

[GannonFan]

Apologies on the Davidson/Georgetown miss - I did indeed miss that one. Se la vie. But that doesn't change the general gist of all of this, that being that the PFL has not demonstrated on the field in any appreciable way that they are truly competitive in the IAA alignment. I don't begrudge them IAA status because that's what they are and I'm fine with them staying there, but to expect a playoff invitation (i.e. at-large) without earning it on the field just rubs the wrong way. Teams are always scrambling to get games schedule so the San Diego's and Dayton's of the world can get the games if they want - you just them have to win them. Coastal was in last year until they blew it in the last moments against Charleston Southern - it's possible, and it's been done all throughout IAA's existence, but it's earned. Play the games, win them, and the playoffs will be there.