Whither 'nova?

[carney2]

With Pitt and Syracuse leaving the Big Least and UConn making noise that they'd like to join them, what becomes of Villanova's delayed decision to move its football program to that FBS league? For that matter, what happens to its basketball program with 3 of the big kids taking their semi-literate hoopsters elsewhere and the Wildcats looking at a league with a smattering of good teams and a relatively larger dose of Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall, Marquette and DePaul?

[Franks Tanks]

With Pitt and Syracuse leaving the Big Least and UConn making noise that they'd like to join them, what becomes of Villanova's delayed decision to move its football program to that FBS league? For that matter, what happens to its basketball program with 3 of the big kids taking their semi-literate hoopsters elsewhere and the Wildcats looking at a league with a smattering of good teams and a relatively larger dose of Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall, Marquette and DePaul?

There is a chance that the non-football Big East members will be left to carry on the Big East as a basketball league. I have also heard rumors that the Big East will bring in schools like Kansas State, Iowa State, and Baylor if the Big 12 dissolves. Neither is a very good scenario for the old line Big East basketball school like Georgetown, Nova, and Providence. Either way it appears the Nova football to the Big East window has passed.

Also I cant wait for those Georgetown-Tcu and St. John's-Iowa state basketbal games.

[Pard4Life]

It's clear now that Nova's real home is FCS.

[bluehenbillk]

What a riches to rags story - could make a great movie. What a world of difference 5 months make - back in April, nobody in FCS was sitting better than 'Nova. They had just come off a NC & a semi-final appearance & were poised to move to a new off-campus, but yet small, stadium and join a BCS league in football - the Big East.

Then whatever could go wrong did - the BEC said we actually think your stadium is now too small, don't call us - we'll call you, the Big East football league is falling apart - SU & Pitt out, UConn, RU & WVU scrambling to do the same, TCU may bail, and worst of all - their own football team is shi$#ing the bed staring a 1-10 or 0-11 season in the face.

[carney2]

The good folks at 'nova should be worried - and those at Georgetown too. My crystal ball is broken so I must rely on logic - never my strong suit. Anyway, if the world of the big kids is headed for four 16 school "super conferences" as many predict, three things are fairly obvious:

1. These conferences will be built for and determined by football. Basketball will be the tail of this dog.

2. Notre Dame will ultimately have to deal themselves in or face the possibility of becoming irrelevant. The days of Rockne, Leahy, Parseghian, and "every Roman Catholic kid in America wants to play for Notre Dame" are fading in the rear view mirror. The Big Ten always seems to have a slot open on their dance card for an Irishman, so...

3. Basketball only schools like 'nova and Georgetown will be left on the outside looking in. With 64 schools playing in the top leagues one has to ask what becomes of the likes of these. More alumni like sader87, dreaming of the good old days and drooling on their bibs?

[bluehenbillk]

2. Notre Dame will ultimately have to deal themselves in or face the possibility of becoming irrelevant. The days of Rockne, Leahy, Parseghian, and "every Roman Catholic kid in America wants to play for Notre Dame" are fading in the rear view mirror. The Big Ten always seems to have a slot open on their dance card for an Irishman, so...



Yep, it's sh%# or get off the pot time for the Irish. If you want to stay independent, you've won your last football NC, because the big boys are going to wrap 64 teams up & finally play a NC on the field soon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's clear now why Pitt came up with that lame-*** excuse that PPL Park was too small.

Without a Big East championship game, the decision was easy for them to jump ship - and this ensures that the Big East is extra-screwed by this move. This obviously has been in the works for months.

Pitt and Syracuse, now, are in a coastal conference more than eight hours from the Atlantic Ocean - and without any credible rivals. Indeed, the "backyard brawl" (not a great rivalry, incidentally) will now be the second football rivalry at Pitt thrown to the curb due to the money-grubbing forces running big-time college football. Happy trails, Pitt and Syracuse. Hope you like all those flights to North Carolina.

The fault has to be with the Big East commissioner. Where dictatorship was needed, he played the game of democracy, waiting for Villanova to make up its mind, placating the Seton Hall's, and letting "unnamed sources" cut the knees from under the Villanova plan before it could be a threat to keep the league together.

Nova could still "move up". But without Pitt, Syracuse and maybe UConn, it really doesn't make any sense to do so.

[DFW HOYA]

Also I cant wait for those Georgetown-Tcu and St. John's-Iowa state basketbal games.

I'm all for it. TCU is a 45 minute drive.

And if it weren't for the stall tactics of Pitt chancellor Mark Nordenberg, Villanova would have been approved for the BE in the summer and thus even more marketable. Now, not so much.

Funny, a school in Pitt wouldn't want another I-A team in the state, would they? xeyebrowx

[UNIFanSince1983]

Seems to me that basketball might be driving the ACC. I mean Pitt and Syracuse are not powerhouse football programs, and the ACC barely has any great football programs anymore (Sans Va Tech and Florida State). If the ACC gets UConn as well they will be the premier basketball conference in the country.

The remaining teams in the Big 12 need to get their stuff together and try and get Boise, TCU, Cincinnati, Louisville, then maybe like SMU, BYU, and see who else they can get to keep them some what relevant even though they can't...

[Franks Tanks]

It's clear now why Pitt came up with that lame-*** excuse that PPL Park was too small.

Without a Big East championship game, the decision was easy for them to jump ship - and this ensures that the Big East is extra-screwed by this move. This obviously has been in the works for months.

Pitt and Syracuse, now, are in a coastal conference more than eight hours from the Atlantic Ocean - and without any credible rivals. Indeed, the "backyard brawl" (not a great rivalry, incidentally) will now be the second football rivalry at Pitt thrown to the curb due to the money-grubbing forces running big-time college football. Happy trails, Pitt and Syracuse. Hope you like all those flights to North Carolina.

The fault has to be with the Big East commissioner. Where dictatorship was needed, he played the game of democracy, waiting for Villanova to make up its mind, placating the Seton Hall's, and letting "unnamed sources" cut the knees from under the Villanova plan before it could be a threat to keep the league together.

Nova could still "move up". But without Pitt, Syracuse and maybe UConn, it really doesn't make any sense to do so.

Beside WVU, Pitt had few football rivalries in the Big East anyway. Pitt and Syracuse get reunited with BC, Miami, and VT. They get to play Maryland and Clemson instead of South Florida and Louisville.

[Ivytalk]

It's clear now that Nova's real home is FCS.

True dat! Or maybe it's DII...

[VUCats02]

My guess is that nothing changes for Nova conference wise. Will remain in the CAA in football for years to come, and will remain in the Big East for all other sports for years to come.

I definitely think the football and non BCS football schools will split in the Big East, and that the Big East will try to get schools like Xavier and Butler to join.

[Spiderbone]

I agree, I think the big east will gut the A-10 like the ACC did to them, I see the likes of temple, richmond, xavier, dayton, george washington and even some caa bball schools like george mason and vcu getting in the mix to up their bball competition. Most of those schools except temple have no football or fcs football,.....the big east once again becomes a bball conference

[alvinkayak6]

Yeah, the million dollar question is whether or not the Big East can retain its BCS status in football. You can't keep losing mid-tier teams and hope to keep it unless you can replace with equal or better ones. Kansas & K-State aren't going to help the big east win in football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

1. Pitt and Syracuse leave
2. Temple and UMass join
3. Villanova starts FBS football
4. Memphis or Central Florida joins Big East
5. Big East Championship Game

Could this be a possible scenario? Now that I'm over the shock of a Syracuse-less Big East, this seems like a lot less than meets the eye, since the only thing stopping Temple and UMass joining before was the Big East's own intrasigence on letting them in. You'd have to think now, in a crisis, that Temple and UMass look a hell of a lot better now.

[VUCats02]

The answer to your million dollar question is no (About the Big East still getting a BCS bid), and even if Nova moved to the FBS in the Big East, I would be completely fine with that.

I am one of about ten Villanova fans who loves CAA football, so I would rather Nova just stay where they are in all sports.

If the Big East added schools like Kansas, Kansas St, Temple, Xavier, Richmond, and Butler (long shot but one can hope), I would actually enjoy that league more than the one with Pitt and Cuse. Make those additions, get rid of Seton Hall, and you are looking at a pretty awesome basketball league, which is what the Big East should be. Still not nearly as good as the ACC, but would be awesome nonetheless. I'm still not quite sure where TCU fits in to all of this. They have literally put themselves in a complete mess :-P Not sure where Notre Dame falls either.

[carney2]

The latest word is that the remnants of the Big Least and the Big 12 are discussing a merger. Also being discussed is West Virginia to the SEC. The big wheel keeps spinning, but it keeps stopping on "The Big Least is Dead."

UConn may get to the ACC, but nothing definite - and nothing imminent. Rutgers is starting to look like an orphan. There was an article in the Allentown, PA newspaper the other day about how, in 1981, Joe Paterno tried to get an Eastern All-Sports Conference off the ground, but it didn't work out. Ultimately, Penn State was denied membership in the Big Least because of their moribund basketball program.* A few of the schools came up to the Commissioner after that vote and said that the league would rue this day. Ya gotta ask what the landscape would be like today if just that one little piece of the puzzle - Penn State - had been kept home - either in a Big Least that had enough sense to recognize that football was the dog and not the tail, or in Paterno's all-sports conference. Not having the east's 2,000 pound football gorilla has really hurt eastern sports.

*It is amazingly short sighted and stupid if, as sader87 of Holy Cross says, "we coulda been in the Big East," but Penn State, who might - just might - have saved this mess, was denied membership.

[Franks Tanks]

The latest word is that the remnants of the Big Least and the Big 12 are discussing a merger. Also being discussed is West Virginia to the SEC. The big wheel keeps spinning, but it keeps stopping on "The Big Least is Dead."

UConn may get to the ACC, but nothing definite - and nothing imminent. Rutgers is starting to look like an orphan. There was an article in the Allentown, PA newspaper the other day about how, in 1981, Joe Paterno tried to get an Eastern All-Sports Conference off the ground, but it didn't work out. Ultimately, Penn State was denied membership in the Big Least because of their moribund basketball program.* A few of the schools came up to the Commissioner after that vote and said that the league would rue this day. Ya gotta ask what the landscape would be like today if just that one little piece of the puzzle - Penn State - had been kept home - either in a Big Least that had enough sense to recognize that football was the dog and not the tail, or in Paterno's all-sports conference. Not having the east's 2,000 pound football gorilla has really hurt eastern sports.

*It is amazingly short sighted and stupid if, as sader87 of Holy Cross says, "we coulda been in the Big East," but Penn State, who might - just might - have saved this mess, was denied membership.

Penn State, Syracuse, BC, WVU, Rutgers, Pitt, Temple, and Maryland were to be the original members. Over the years schools like Virginia Tech and Uconn would have likley joined as well. Pretty good all sports conference. Many Penn State fans wish they were still aligned with the Eastern schools, and many people on their message board want Penn State to join the ACC.

[Pard4Life]

Eastern football died when the Ivys were no longer competitive. There are not even any colleges in the east anymore... BC, UConn, Rutgers, Temple, Syracuse, maybe Penn State... five of the six are generally terrible in most years. It is the east that is the odd man in these football realignments... the center lies elsewhere.

Oddly, this region is also the highest concentration of population and professional sports teams in the nation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The latest word is that the remnants of the Big Least and the Big 12 are discussing a merger. Also being discussed is West Virginia to the SEC.

No prizes awarded to, then, who wins the most in this whole course of events. And, no, it's not Pitt or Syracuse.

Imagine - West Virginia, at one time, was a pretty good basketball program and an above-average football program, but were in a cruddy, dying football conference. Now, potentially, they'll be hosting Alabama or LSU every year. Yup.

[Ivytalk]

Eastern football died when the Ivys were no longer competitive. There are not even any colleges in the east anymore... BC, UConn, Rutgers, Temple, Syracuse, maybe Penn State... five of the six are generally terrible in most years. It is the east that is the odd man in these football realignments... the center lies elsewhere.

Oddly, this region is also the highest concentration of population and professional sports teams in the nation.

Sounds like a Ph.D. thesis topic made for you, Pard4Life! And check your PMs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There was an article in the Allentown, PA newspaper the other day about how, in 1981, Joe Paterno tried to get an Eastern All-Sports Conference off the ground, but it didn't work out. Ultimately, Penn State was denied membership in the Big Least because of their moribund basketball program.* A few of the schools came up to the Commissioner after that vote and said that the league would rue this day. Ya gotta ask what the landscape would be like today if just that one little piece of the puzzle - Penn State - had been kept home - either in a Big Least that had enough sense to recognize that football was the dog and not the tail, or in Paterno's all-sports conference. Not having the east's 2,000 pound football gorilla has really hurt eastern sports.

*It is amazingly short sighted and stupid if, as sader87 of Holy Cross says, "we coulda been in the Big East," but Penn State, who might - just might - have saved this mess, was denied membership.

Some background I unearthed on this a while ago, when formere BE commish Mike Tranghese stepped down:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/06/inconvenient-solution-to-big-east.html


I look back on the 30 years, and I think we made one major mistake. We had a chance to take Penn State in 1982 and we didn’t. You look back on it and the whole face of college athletics would be changed now. If we had taken Penn State in 1982, we may still have football independents. The idea wasn’t to take Penn State and start a football league. It was to give Penn State a place. And then they would have been aligned with Syracuse and Boston College. We probably would have brought Pitt in, too, and the four of them probably would have agreed to play and continue as independents. I think the whole face of college football would have changed. I don’t think Florida State would have moved and Miami would have moved.

What happened in the previous fall, Penn State had tried to form a football league. Coach Rick Paterno has laid a lot of this at [Syracuse athletic director] Jake Crouthamel’s feet, which I think is wrong. What never got written was that the basketball league was being pretty successful and they couldn’t agree on revenue sharing in football. There wasn’t going to be any revenue sharing. Jake just wasn’t going to do that. The next year Dave brought it up for discussion and Jake was absolutely supportive. We voted five different times and all five times Jake voted for Penn State. And Bill Flynn at Boston College, God rest his soul, voted for Penn State all five times. The reason that they didn’t get in was that the league was new, a lot of the directors felt it was a basketball league. Some of the directors felt that the concept of the Big East was big markets.

So from Tranghese the idea was never, at that time, to deny Penn State membership because of basketball - it was to "offer them a place", and keep them an independent in football. It does sort-of justify the statement, but I'd say it was more due to short-sightedness from a few rather than a unanimous rebuke of Penn State.

[dgtw]

Here's an interesting article about what could have been a major player in all this.

http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/columns/kevinmcneill/050911.htm

[Spiderbone]

Sounds like a Ph.D. thesis topic made for you, Pard4Life! And check your PMs.

I think this has been looked at before, I read an article about it in the past. The gist of it was that FOOTBALL was huge in conservative (read...republican leaning states) and basketball was bigger in more liberal (read...traditionally democratic leaning states). Hence the concentration of football prowess in the SEC, Texas and the Midwest. Whereas Basketball Success has typically been in on the East and West coasts. This also explains the DE-Emphasizing of football in the Northeast and the fact that really the only FBS football school to do anything of merit in the past few years up there has been Penn State and it struggled at that. Imagine however if the IVIES had EMPHASIZED football and dominated like they did in the early part of the 20th century, pretty cool.

[alvinkayak6]

You can't deny the impact of tailgating on southern culture. It's a lot like NASCAR in that fashion. The weather is good, so people can sit in chairs, drink, and play tailgating games for hours outside trailers. Also in the south we have a lot of large universities e.g. flagships and not many private schools. Look at the state of Florida, Florida, FSU, UCF, USF are giants. There is no Duke, or Vanderbilt or William & Mary. Go North of Penn State, and you find five dozen great private schools, and no state universities that are truly massive IMO.

[carney2]

No prizes awarded to, then, who wins the most in this whole course of events. And, no, it's not Pitt or Syracuse.

Imagine - West Virginia, at one time, was a pretty good basketball program and an above-average football program, but were in a cruddy, dying football conference. Now, potentially, they'll be hosting Alabama or LSU every year. Yup.

Just wait an hour. Things will change. It is now reported that West Virginia has been rejected by both the ACC and SEC. Why? There just aren't enough TV sets in West Virginia. The Mountaineers are, at the moment, potentially big losers in this shuffle. But just wait for the next report from "reputable sources."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just wait an hour. Things will change. It is now reported that West Virginia has been rejected by both the ACC and SEC. Why? There just aren't enough TV sets in West Virginia. The Mountaineers are, at the moment, potentially big losers in this shuffle. But just wait for the next report from "reputable sources."

You're so right about this. I went from thinking how Nova's Big East foibles would be a nice "Friday Water Cooler". Now, I'm running around trying to find out if USMA and USNA are going to fly the PL chicken coop, and destroy the League.

[Franks Tanks]

You're so right about this. I went from thinking how Nova's Big East foibles would be a nice "Friday Water Cooler". Now, I'm running around trying to find out if USMA and USNA are going to fly the PL chicken coop, and destroy the League.

They aren't leaving.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They aren't leaving.

I don't think so either - but wouldn't it be nice to know for sure?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't think they're leaving, either, but Paul Reinhard might know differently. I do think they'll get approval from the PL to play football in the Big East if they ask - but I'm still not certain how Big East football benefits either of them.

[DFW HOYA]

Some background I unearthed on this a while ago, when formere BE commish Mike Tranghese stepped down:
So from Tranghese the idea was never, at that time, to deny Penn State membership because of basketball - it was to "offer them a place", and keep them an independent in football. It does sort-of justify the statement, but I'd say it was more due to short-sightedness from a few rather than a unanimous rebuke of Penn State.

1. Don't underestimate the role of Joe Paterno in those discussions. Accoding to reports, Paterno wanted 2 for 1 deals to play other Eastern schools and a disproportionate share of gate revenues, which is why Syracuse did not go to bat for him in the expansion vote.

2. Penn State did not have a basketball tradition and its facilities were poor (they were still playing at aging Rec Hall) and there were no indications it would focus more on basketball as other schools were doing. (Think of it as a mirror image of Georgetown should they have applied to a football-heavy conference.)

[carney2]

You're so right about this. I went from thinking how Nova's Big East foibles would be a nice "Friday Water Cooler". Now, I'm running around trying to find out if USMA and USNA are going to fly the PL chicken coop, and destroy the League.

The Patriot League has had no concerns thus far with where the academies play their football. Independents, Conference USA, it just hasn't mattered. Patriot League by-laws notwithstanding, I don't see how Big Least football or anything similar changes anything.

On the other side of the fence, the academies have been the real glue that holds the Patriot League together. And they have been quite content over the years. They have a low key, low cost, low travel home for all of their non-football sports. It's perfect for them. Their alumni want the football program played at the BCS level even though the expectations and the reality will never match. The academy authorities want to live Douglas MacArthur's credo of "every cadet an athlete," and what better place to achieve that than the Patriot League?

As we've been discussing in this thread, the landscape of college athletics is changing - seemingly daily - and anything can happen, but it is difficult to envision a greener pasture for Army and Navy's "lesser sports" than the deal they have now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As we've been discussing in this thread, the landscape of college athletics is changing - seemingly daily - and anything can happen, but it is difficult to envision a greener pasture for Army and Navy's "lesser sports" than the deal they have now.

Very true. What I'm having trouble with is: if you're given a golden ticket to the world that is Big East basketball - even if it promises annual beatings, and a seismic change in the way you do business in hoops - do you take it?

[Franks Tanks]

I don't think so either - but wouldn't it be nice to know for sure?

Every rumor i've read indicates that if Army and Navy join the BE, it will be for football only. Even if they go to the BE, it is unlikley the move will impact the rest of their sports in the PL.

I think Army is totally against conference affiliation as C-USA was a total disaster. Navy may be feel differently due to their recent success, but at the end of the day they are still Navy and the kids on their team are not like the kids on Big East teams. I understand the have beaten some BE teams recently, but the week to week grind of a BE schedule would wear on them.

[DFW HOYA]

Gemeral question, and I honestly don't know--does the congressional appointment process for USMA and USNA applicants take precedent over qualifying under the AI for its athletes?

Example: if Cole Aldrich (Kansas forward, 2010 Academic All-America) had been accepted to USMA and his grades weren't AI-band level, would he still get in?

[carney2]

Very true. What I'm having trouble with is: if you're given a golden ticket to the world that is Big East basketball - even if it promises annual beatings, and a seismic change in the way you do business in hoops - do you take it?

Just how "golden" is that Big Least ticket without Syracuse, Pitt, and, we can reasonably theorize, UConn and Rutgers?

[carney2]

A long, data filled article on this whole game of college football musical chairs. Personally, I found it fascinating.

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/?emc=eta1

[Go...gate]

carney2, right you are! GREAT article.

[Bogus Megapardus]

A long, data filled article on this whole game of college football musical chairs. Personally, I found it fascinating.

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/?emc=eta1

Using the author's methodology, watch what happens to the regional distribution when you substitute "FCS football" for "college football" in Google Insights for Search:


"College Football" (http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=college+football&cmpt=q&geo=US)

"FCS Football" (http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=FCS%20football&geo=US&cmpt=q)


My, what a difference a few letter make!

[alvinkayak6]

Best bet is if lower tier FBS joins with FCS again. Major FBS is gonna shut out the lil guys from the BCS (because they can). They will also leave the NCAA because this sanction ***** is getting tiring.

Auburn, Ohio St, S Carolina, Georgia Tech, UNC, USC, Oregon, Michigan, Ok State all have/had recent issues with the NCAA. It is getting out of hand.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A long, data filled article on this whole game of college football musical chairs. Personally, I found it fascinating.

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/?emc=eta1

I found it equally fascinating. Every time you combine numbers and college football, I'll probably be riveted! xlolx

I think my biggest surprise in the whole article that West Virginia's "market penetration" is about a strong, if you believe his methodology, as Rutgers'. I am thoroughly surprised that so many people self-identify as Rutgers fans.

North Carolina's strong showing surprised me too. When was the last time they were ever any good?