Whats the Difference between Div. I-AA Non Scholie and Div III Football

[Stang Fever]

I believe this might have been discussed before but I would love to here what people think about the two....Please dont get on here and tell me about Being a Div. I School and not having the money to fund a football team...Im talking Football between the white lines

I already know why people have to tell themselves to make them feel good about being I-AA non scholarship

[Bub]

Like all differences between classifications in football. It comes down to size and speed. Generally speaking the lineman, backers and DB's are bigger in I-AA and all the players are generally faster. That's generally, there area D-III players bigger and faster than a lot of non schollie players. But if you compare apples to apples, the best non schollies against the best D-III and the worst to the worst this generalization will hold true.

For this reason, better athletes, the best I-AA non schollies are better than the best D-III. IMHO

[dbackjon]

Basically nothing....

Many of the I-AA non-scholarship teams did play D-III football until the NCAA passed a rule stating that if you play D-I basketball (the Cash Cow), then all sports must be D-I

[Doo Cane 4 ever]

You're absolutely right that there is basically no difference and you have clearly stated the reason why. I have followed Duquesne in the MAAC for almost 10 years and clearly the MAAC is a D3 conference masquarading under the 1-AA classification to comply with the Dayton Rule that stated that if you had a D1 basketball program then you had to have a D1 football program. Very little changed at Duquesne between the days of D3 and the present D1-AA. Same crappy stadium, same "ugly stepchild" comparison to the basketball program by the administration, lack of resources, etc.
What really brings it home is when you travel to somewhere like Iona or St. Peter's to watch a game - then you really know that you are in a D3 conference.

[nlwwln]

well basically all 1aa non schollie schools athletic programs compete at the 1a level in all other sports and to my knowledge do offer scholarships in all other sports except football. schools that take this title probably do not have the funds to support a 1aa scholarship program so the logical decision is to join 1aa non schollie because the rest of their sports programs compete at the division 1 level. If a school is to be considered division 1 all of their sports teams must compete under division 1 level ( i beleive there is some exception to this with hockey, not really sure) and this is the sub class for those schools who want to be division 1 but for one reason or another cannot fund the full scholarship limit of 1aa. as for comparing them to division 3 well the difference is the athletic program of the school competes at either division 1 or 3 but to give you an idea of the competitivness of the two take for example robert morris a 1aa non schollie played rowan last year a division 3 power and rowan won I beleive something like 16 - 15 and robert morris has traditionally been one of the elite 1aa non schollie teams. so as far as the competition between the two goes I would say its close but varies from school to school. but on an average day I would say that the 1aa non schollie 9 times out of 10 comes out victorious over the D3 school.
the maac with the exception of duquesne probably have some of the worst 1aa non schollies teams like iona, st peters, and la salle. these schools more often than not would probably be in for a game against most D3 schools.

[blukeys]

well basically all 1aa non schollie schools athletic programs compete at the 1a level in all other sports and to my knowledge do offer scholarships in all other sports except football. schools that take this title probably do not have the funds to support a 1aa scholarship program so the logical decision is to join 1aa non schollie because the rest of their sports programs compete at the division 1 level. If a school is to be considered division 1 all of their sports teams must compete under division 1 level ( i beleive there is some exception to this with hockey, not really sure) and this is the sub class for those schools who want to be division 1 but for one reason or another cannot fund the full scholarship limit of 1aa. as for comparing them to division 3 well the difference is the athletic program of the school competes at either division 1 or 3 but to give you an idea of the competitivness of the two take for example robert morris a 1aa non schollie played rowan last year a division 3 power and rowan won I beleive something like 16 - 15 and robert morris has traditionally been one of the elite 1aa non schollie teams. so as far as the competition between the two goes I would say its close but varies from school to school. but on an average day I would say that the 1aa non schollie 9 times out of 10 comes out victorious over the D3 school.
the maac with the exception of duquesne probably have some of the worst 1aa non schollies teams like iona, st peters, and la salle. these schools more often than not would probably be in for a game against most D3 schools.


Rowan and Mount Union would beat 90% of the I-AA non scollies out there. We all know that the highest level teams of any division are not representative of the whole division.

A couple of years back my home town D-3 team Wesley College (A semi finalist this year in the D-3 playoffs) gave Butler all they could handle (I can't remember if they won)

My friends who are alums of this school asked how they would do against UD and DSU. I informed them that they would be fortunate to keep DSU within 14 points and they would lose by 50+ to UD. While they respect my opinion because I usually see all 3 teams play in a given year they still were willing to believe that their D-3 team could compete with I-AA's based on their expereince against Butler. The Non - Scollie aspect of Butler did not make an impression on them. All they knew was that their D-3 team had hung with a I-AA team.

The non scollies do bring down the reputation of I-AA. Regular fans of D-3 teams, for better or worse, develop their own impression of I-AA teams based on their exposure to these teams in head to head matchups. La Salle is a great example. Rowan would clean their clock in any matchup. Uninformed Rowan fans would conclude that they could compete with mediocre I-AA's. This is not true but they could only go based on what they see.

The range in quality of teams in I-AA is wider than any other division. It is a factor in the perception of I-AA.

[DFW HOYA]

There's a considerable difference between III and I-AA non-scholarship, which I assume for this argument is the PFL and MAAC schools. For this discussion, the Ivy, Patriot, and emerging NEC schools compete with a different recruiting and aid formula than the PFL and MAAC.

The three major differences:

1. Budget. Even the smallest I-AA NS program operates at about twice the average III budget, some three times as much. Additional coaches are a big part of this.

2. Size. With few exceptions, the average I-AA NS team is stronger and with more depth than a similarly situated III team.

3. Recruiting. I-AA NS focuses on more off-season recruiting than many III schools.

I don't buy the argument above that since Rowan might beat St. Peter's, these schools are no better than III. Heck, the better D-III basketball schools can hold their own against many of the Div. I bottom feeders, but it's a generalization to say they are equivalent. Same as I-AA vs. I-A. Delaware might be able to upset SMU, but it still can't hang with Texas.

To nlwwln's points above, there is no I-AA subclass. The same designation applies whether you're App State or (soon to be) Campbell, as it should. No one subclassifies D-I basketball by scholarship strength.

[nlwwln]

I think you have to give the non schollies a little more credit I mean the bottom line is they are still D1 and that alone is going to attract a higher level of competition than that of D3. The few D3 schools who have built an elite reputation will give the 1aa non scholarships a run for their money but every now and then a 1aa non schollie will give a 1aa schollie a run for their money to so I dont think its any different in this case. you cant deny there are some pretty solid 1aa non scholarship programs out there, to name a few.. san diego, duquesne, dayton, morehead, monmouth, all very solid programs who I have no doubt would beat any D3 school on any given saturday. now as for D2 schools this might be a different story... grand valley state, north dakota, valdosta state I bet could give alot of 1aa scholarship teams a run for their money

[blukeys]

I think you have to give the non schollies a little more credit I mean the bottom line is they are still D1 and that alone is going to attract a higher level of competition than that of D3. The few D3 schools who have built an elite reputation will give the 1aa non scholarships a run for their money but every now and then a 1aa non schollie will give a 1aa schollie a run for their money to so I dont think its any different in this case. you cant deny there are some pretty solid 1aa non scholarship programs out there, to name a few.. san diego, duquesne, dayton, morehead, monmouth, all very solid programs who I have no doubt would beat any D3 school on any given saturday. now as for D2 schools this might be a different story... grand valley state, north dakota, valdosta state I bet could give alot of 1aa scholarship teams a run for their money


I stand by what I said earlier and that is Mount Union and Rowan would beat 90% of those teams (For the record Monmouth will be offering up to 30 scolly equivalencies next year and so they really aren't in this category) . If you are saying the best non scolly I-AA's are better than most D-3's and can beat many d-2's then I agree but even a mediocre scolly I-AA can beat the best D-3. That is not the case with the non-scolly's.

[foghorn]

Rowan and Mount Union would beat 90% of the I-AA non scollies out there. We all know that the highest level teams of any division are not representative of the whole division.

A couple of years back my home town D-3 team Wesley College (A semi finalist this year in the D-3 playoffs) gave Butler all they could handle (I can't remember if they won)

My friends who are alums of this school asked how they would do against UD and DSU. I informed them that they would be fortunate to keep DSU within 14 points and they would lose by 50+ to UD. While they respect my opinion because I usually see all 3 teams play in a given year they still were willing to believe that their D-3 team could compete with I-AA's based on their expereince against Butler. The Non - Scollie aspect of Butler did not make an impression on them. All they knew was that their D-3 team had hung with a I-AA team.

The non scollies do bring down the reputation of I-AA. Regular fans of D-3 teams, for better or worse, develop their own impression of I-AA teams based on their exposure to these teams in head to head matchups. La Salle is a great example. Rowan would clean their clock in any matchup. Uninformed Rowan fans would conclude that they could compete with mediocre I-AA's. This is not true but they could only go based on what they see.

The range in quality of teams in I-AA is wider than any other division. It is a factor in the perception of I-AA.

It's that perception that irritates me more than anything about the D-IAA classification.
Several years ago my son played for Div. III Randolph -Macon. They played and defeated Div. I-AA Davidson, and unfortunately, many on that team thought they were, at least, the equal of Div. I-AA teams in general.
And rightfully so. Who in their logical minds would think that teams with such a diverse scholarship philosophy would be classified in the same
athletic division. It's nonsense and one of the, if not the main reason that Div. I-AA gets little respect. The NCAA should change the absurd basketball/football classification rule immediately. If you wanna play with the big boys, fork out the dough and offer 63 full scholarships, or play Div. III.:eek:

[Dane96]

I stand by what I said earlier and that is Mount Union and Rowan would beat 90% of those teams (For the record Monmouth will be offering up to 30 scolly equivalencies next year and so they really aren't in this category) . If you are saying the best non scolly I-AA's are better than most D-3's and can beat many d-2's then I agree but even a mediocre scolly I-AA can beat the best D-3. That is not the case with the non-scolly's.

Wrong, the NEC will not allow a full phase in; max allowed is 10 next year....and the school w/ the highest number of schollys granted is both UA and SBU...at 8 scholarships.

[Bub]

Stang, do you just like to see people get worked up into a frenzy?:)
You know this issue like no other gets the Blue Hens riled up.

The problem with peoples perception of I-AA isn't the fact that non schollies are a part of it, it's the fact that almost no one cares. Sorry but there it is. It may be a tough to understand in Delaware since you have no I-A schools there and you guys are the big dogs in the state, like the grizz and Bobcats in Mont., but coming from the land of the Big 10 and Big 12, it's easy to see. The majority of the football public see all schools which don't play BCS football as "small college", regardless of their scholarship level. Don't blame the fact that you don't think your school, conference or division doesn't get enough attention on the non schollies, the genereal football public didn't care about the divsion prior to the Dayton rule either. You delude only yourselfs if you think getting rid of non schollies as part of I-AA would raise I-AA to it's rightful place in the pantheon of football greatness in the football publics mind.xidiotx

There are weak teams in every division. Some of the non schollies beat PL teams last year, as well as D-II's, D-III's and NAIA, some D-III's probably beat some non schollies, hell an NAIA beat Indiana State, so what! You can't take one example and draw any meaningful conclusions from it.

Drake was a I-A program, dropped football, came back as a D-III and then I-AA under the Dayton rule. You realize the Dayton rule came about because the D-I schools fielding D-III teams were seen to have an unfair advantage over pure D-III teams, right? Drake does not recruit the same player now as they did when they were a D-III school. I'm sure the same is true for Dayton and others. Their facilities are generally better than D-III and they recruit better athletes. Hell I've read D-III and NAIA boards where their fans acknowlege they can't generally compete with I-AA non schollies because the non schollies are able to recruit better athletes due to their D-I status in other sports.

This won't change any minds, we're all convinced of the correctness of our position, but it's my :twocents: .

[Stang Fever]

Stang, do you just like to see people get worked up into a frenzy?:)
You know this issue like no other gets the Blue Hens riled up.

The problem with peoples perception of I-AA isn't the fact that non schollies are a part of it, it's the fact that almost no one cares. Sorry but there it is. It may be a tough to understand in Delaware since you have no I-A schools there and you guys are the big dogs in the state, like the grizz and Bobcats in Mont., but coming from the land of the Big 10 and Big 12, it's easy to see. The majority of the football public see all schools which don't play BCS football as "small college", regardless of their scholarship level. Don't blame the fact that you don't think your school, conference or division doesn't get enough attention on the non schollies, the genereal football public didn't care about the divsion prior to the Dayton rule either. You delude only yourselfs if you think getting rid of non schollies as part of I-AA would raise I-AA to it's rightful place in the pantheon of football greatness in the football publics mind.xidiotx

There are weak teams in every division. Some of the non schollies beat PL teams last year, as well as D-II's, D-III's and NAIA, some D-III's probably beat some non schollies, hell an NAIA beat Indiana State, so what! You can't take one example and draw any meaningful conclusions from it.

Drake was a I-A program, dropped football, came back as a D-III and then I-AA under the Dayton rule. You realize the Dayton rule came about because the D-I schools fielding D-III teams were seen to have an unfair advantage over pure D-III teams, right? Drake does not recruit the same player now as they did when they were a D-III school. I'm sure the same is true for Dayton and others. Their facilities are generally better than D-III and they recruit better athletes. Hell I've read D-III and NAIA boards where their fans acknowlege they can't generally compete with I-AA non schollies because the non schollies are able to recruit better athletes due to their D-I status in other sports.

This won't change any minds, we're all convinced of the correctness of our position, but it's my :twocents: .


I enjoy a good debate..and i love to listen to people talk about something the love...For me I HATE I-AA non scholarships.....im not saying it cause i think its going to elevate the exposure of I-aa football cause just like someone said earlier if you are not from a BCS school people look at you as a small time collge....I just dont like someone trying to have there cake and eat it to...if you are going to jump in the pool jump in...dont just stick your foot in the water.....and say you went swimming cause you didnt

[bluehenbillk]

2 comments, Bub is right about the view from BCS conference fans, heck they think the MAC is small college football, much less 1-AA or lower.

I agree with BluKeys that a Mount Union would polish off most of the 1-AA non-scholly's. The majority of the 1-AA non-schollys were D-3 at one time until the NCAA ruled they had to have a D-1 label to keep their hoops teams at D-1.

[UNH 40]

Rowan and Mount Union would beat 90% of the I-AA non scollies out there. We all know that the highest level teams of any division are not representative of the whole division.

A couple of years back my home town D-3 team Wesley College (A semi finalist this year in the D-3 playoffs) gave Butler all they could handle (I can't remember if they won)

My friends who are alums of this school asked how they would do against UD and DSU. I informed them that they would be fortunate to keep DSU within 14 points and they would lose by 50+ to UD. While they respect my opinion because I usually see all 3 teams play in a given year they still were willing to believe that their D-3 team could compete with I-AA's based on their expereince against Butler. The Non - Scollie aspect of Butler did not make an impression on them. All they knew was that their D-3 team had hung with a I-AA team.

The non scollies do bring down the reputation of I-AA. Regular fans of D-3 teams, for better or worse, develop their own impression of I-AA teams based on their exposure to these teams in head to head matchups. La Salle is a great example. Rowan would clean their clock in any matchup. Uninformed Rowan fans would conclude that they could compete with mediocre I-AA's. This is not true but they could only go based on what they see.

The range in quality of teams in I-AA is wider than any other division. It is a factor in the perception of I-AA.

Couldn't agree with you more. Some of these non-scholarship teams are dreadful. I would venture to say that the top tier teams in D-III would compete very nicely with the Albany States, Wagner College, and Central Connecticut State Universities of the world. UNH played CCSU in 2003 when we were a mediocre I-AA team and we beat them 70-21 with all of the starters leaving the game in the third quarter. If we had left starters in the starters in we would have put up well over 100 and not given up a TD.

[lucchesicourt]

UCD was Div 2 non schollie for years. We competed with the best of D2 schollie and beat D1AA schollies regularly (though these were not the cream of the crop 1AA's-mainly St. Mary's and Sac State). Could many D3 teams have competed with UCD at the time? I doubt it. This schollie thing is made out to be much more than it really is though. Regardless, of how talented an athlete is, if he has no heart, he is no better than most D2 players. UCD players have always seemed to have heart. Aggie pride has carried UCD to many wins against teams with more talent, but less heart. Also, school size has a lot to do with the attraction of athletes, along with playoff reputation. This is how UCD competed with D2 schollie teams. Do I think D1AA non scgollie teams are better than D3? Yes, because of the school attraction factor for athletes. Most D3 teams aren't very popular, and hence players look to the D2 and 1AA schools that are popular.
D3 has a very difficult time attracting athletes. D3 and 1AA are a big difference in talent, IMO. The better question is how do D1AA non schollie match up with D2. I feel this is where most 1AA non scholie teams are the most equivalent in talent.

[henfan]

It may be a tough to understand in Delaware since you have no I-A schools there and you guys are the big dogs in the state, like the grizz and Bobcats in Mont., but coming from the land of the Big 10 and Big 12, it's easy to see.

Bub, that comment is so far off base that I'd assume you've never spent any time in the First State.

Delaware may not have any I-A schools located in the state but, within our media market, we've been bombarded historically with media coverage from ACC (Maryland) and Big 10 (Penn St.) schools and, to a lesser extent, Big East (Temple & Rutgers.) You do realize that Delaware does not even have its own televsion station? The state is part of either the Baltimore/Washington or Philly markets, depending on your location.

It's not that many Delaware fans don't understand the general outsider's perception of our athletic programs, it's just that many of us don't care enough to let it affect our appreciation of what we have. It's ours and who gives a crap what Joe Sixpack of Buttpork, Iowa thinks about it. That's the pervasive attitude from my perch four miles from Delaware Stadium.

FTR, I'm not overwhelmingly in favor of non-equivalancy FB programs being lumped in with I-AA but, frankly, I don't think they have much of an impact on UD football. I do think it's inappropriate for the NCAA to grant exceptions to schools like Johns Hopkins, which allow them to compete in D-I only for LAX, but requires LaSalle to compete in D-I for FB.

[Bub]

Hen, you can have all those teams in your media market, it's not the same as having both a Big 10 team and a Big 12 team in your state. Iowa State is 30 miles from Drake and Iowa 80 miles. Ask the UNI fans how many people in Iowa give a rat about them compared to the big 2. The main paper here(Des Moines Register) refers to Iowa, ISU, UNI & Drake as the big 4, but the heart and soul of football fans clearly clearly belong to Iowa, and ISU to a lesser extent. D-III's, D-II's and NAIA's hardly receive any coverage here.

My point is in those areas where there are "home" BCS football programs the fans follow those and by and large ignore the rest of us.

By the way, I'm not from Buttpork, but if you can tell me where it's close to I've probably been nearby.:) And how do you know I've got six pack abs?xlolx

[foghorn]

Bub, it's easily inderstandable that Big 10 teams attract virtually all the attention in the Midwest, leaving the rest of the non-Div. I-A teams on the 2nd and 3rd pages of the Podunk Weekly. I don't see, however, what this has to do with scholly or non-scholly football. If Div. I-AA and Div. III receive equal non-attention, if given the choice, why not opt for Div. III, which satisfies the non-scholly issue and certainly puts you more on an even playing field to win a Div. III championship? It certainly won't happen in Div. I-AA.
I can guarantee that the Div. I-A boys would ridicule any suggestion that non-scholly teams be admitted to Div. I-A. It shouldn't be any different for Div. I-AA. It's just another cavalier NCAA gesture of 'if we don't know what to do with 'em, stick 'em in Div. I-AA because they'll accept whatever we say'. Maybe a change in nomenclature will allow the NCAA to rethink their absurd stance on Div. I basketball/football. :mad:

[midwestgold]

With the pure parity in college sports in general,every class is getting more and more competitive.I believe that the top D-2's(GVSU,NDSU,etc) would beat up on the lower echelon non-schollie 1-AA's.It's another story if they match up against the San Diego's and the Dayton's.Those schools going head to head,I think would be very similar in athleticism,speed and size.A good test will be this year when San Diego plays Cal Davis who beat Stanford last year.1AA's,whether schollie or not,have moved up dramatically in the last 3 years.Illinois State should have beat Iowa State last year,for instance,which would never have occurred 5 years ago IMHO.My guess going forward for the non-schollies,the top tier teams will be scheduling alot tougher non-conference games(bottom rung MAC teams,top end 1AA's).I am relatively sure the push will be on to increase their RPI's to at least have a whiff of making the 1AA playoffs.And where do the Ivies fit in the equation?Dayton,San Diego,Duquesne are very competitive with them.All these schools get top quality athletes and top quality students who know there is life after college football.If a student athlete has the grades,would you want him going to lower rung Mac teams,lower rung Mountain West teams or the Harvard's,Princeton's,Brown's,San Diego,Dayton etc.?If it is not a question of economics,I know what the answer is for most parents.

[DetroitFlyer]

There is no question that the top tier 1-AA non-scholly programs are much better than the lions share of Division III. The Dayton rule was absolutely implemented and maintained today because the Mount Unions, Rowans, Saint Johns of the Division III world were fed up with trying to compete with Dayton. The facilities at UD dwarf virtually anything at Division III. We can land an occassional game with Yale, see if Rowan can pull that off folks.... Most of the current MAAC and PFL teams have a much higher national reputation as oposed to any Division III for academics and certainly more "name" recoginition due to being Division 1-A in all other sports. It used to be that when a 1-A, 1-AA or even Division II scholly player wanted to leave his school and play the next season, schools like Rowan and Mount Union got those kids. Now I thnk most of them are going to 1-AA non-schollys, ( Todd Mortonsen at San Diego for example ). I asked the question of legendary coach at Dayton, Mike Kelly, a while back. MK won championships at Division III and has coached Dayton since we became 1-AA. MK told me that the athletes he is able to recruit today, versus the Division III days are like night and day. The kids are bigger, stronger, faster and just better athletes in every regard. Even though PFL schools cannot offer athletic scholarships, they can offer academic aid avaialble to all students. Trust me, if a kid has a chance to play for Dayton or Mount Union and Dayton can put together an attractic academic aid package, we get em! We even pull that off against the MAC schools some times! Unfortunately, it is also quite true that THE Ohio State University absolutely dominates football in Ohio. the second tier are the 1-A MAC schools and even Cincinatti. YSU and UD, the only 1-AA's in the state get very little converage out of their local markets, although YSU has won national championships in 1-AA and Tressel has been successful at THE Ohio State University so that helps. Only the most hard core of football fans have ever heard of Mount Union. And for the record, Dayton defeated a middle of the pack Division II team last season, ( Tiffin ), who does offer the full Division II allowed nuber of scholarships something like 35-0 at Tiffin. Attendance was in the hundreds of folks, much less than the 5000 UD draws for a home game.

[HensRock]

Bub,
It's a little different when you're from a small state like Delaware. The state boundary means nothing ( but then again it means everything ).
What teams do you think most Delawareans are exposed to when their "local" TV station is located in either Philadelphia, PA or Baltimore, MD?

The Newark area is served by Philadelphia for TV. That's ALL major affiliates and ALL minor ones as well.

You mentioned 2 schools close to Drake.

Within 150 miles (a 3 hour drive) of Newark, DE:

I-A
Temple
Rutgers
Maryland
Navy
Penn State
Army


I-AA
Villanova
Penn
Princeton
Delaware State
La Salle
Lehigh
Lafayette
Towson
Morgan State
Howard
Georgetown
Fordham
St. Peters
Monmouth
Wagner
Stony Brook
Hofstra
Columbia
Iona
Bucknell

NFL
Philadephia Eagles
Baltimore Ravens
Washington Redskins
NY Giants
NY Jets


and remember, the state of Delaware has no TV station of it's own. UD is hardly the "only game in town".

[Bub]

Bub, it's easily inderstandable that Big 10 teams attract virtually all the attention in the Midwest, leaving the rest of the non-Div. I-A teams on the 2nd and 3rd pages of the Podunk Weekly. I don't see, however, what this has to do with scholly or non-scholly football. If Div. I-AA and Div. III receive equal non-attention, if given the choice, why not opt for Div. III, which satisfies the non-scholly issue and certainly puts you more on an even playing field to win a Div. III championship? It certainly won't happen in Div. I-AA.
I can guarantee that the Div. I-A boys would ridicule any suggestion that non-scholly teams be admitted to Div. I-A. It shouldn't be any different for Div. I-AA. It's just another cavalier NCAA gesture of 'if we don't know what to do with 'em, stick 'em in Div. I-AA because they'll accept whatever we say'. Maybe a change in nomenclature will allow the NCAA to rethink their absurd stance on Div. I basketball/football. :mad:


It is a response to the theory that non schollies are bringing down the reputation of I-AA. My point is that whatever perception problems I-AA has exist regardless of the presence of non schollies.

See DetroitFlyers response for why D-III isn't going to alow us in anytime soon.

[faxjusfax]

As far as recruiting, one point not made yet is that at many Div III schools, there would be a real oppotunity to play for a national title (over and above the previously mentioned Rowans and Mount Unions)

I know of 2 players in recent years who went to Springfield for that reason, bypassing NEC and MAAC schools that had shown strong interest.

There really isn't that much difference, but imo, the non-schollies hold an edge overall.

[GannonFan]

The Dayton rule was absolutely implemented and maintained today because the Mount Unions, Rowans, Saint Johns of the Division III world were fed up with trying to compete with Dayton.

Not to inflame the debate, but do you really think this was the main reason for the rule? No offense, but Dayton wasn't really dominating the DIII ranks nationally during their period in DIII (1977 to 1992) - Dayton won 2 national titles in those 16 years - certainly a very good accomplishment, but not really dominating. Ithaca and Widener both won the same amount in the same period of time, and Augustana had a dynasty with 4 straight titles in the mid 80's. Dayton was certainly good, but they weren't keeping DIII in a stranglehold at the time. Only one other current IAA team (Wagner) won a national title during Dayton's period in DII so it's not as if the current IAA teams were the dominant forces in DIII (3 national titles versus 13 for teams that are still DIII). It seems to me like the rest of DIII was competing nicely even against the "juggernaut" of Dayton.

As for your mention of Tiffin, it's hard to call them a middle of the pack DII team - they've never been to the playoffs and are pretty much a DII outsider - they aren't a good DII team.

And as for Mt Union, they were good before Dayton left the DIII fold - they had three undefeated seasons (1986, 1990, and 1992) while Dayton was still in DIII so they were not struggling too much then. And having Dayton be in the more prestigious DIAA ranks certainly hasn't hurt Mt Union bring in talent, which they do in bunches. As for Rowan, their ascendency was based on getting good coaches - first John Bunting (now coach at North Carolina) in 1988 and then his protegee, KC Keeler, now at UD. Again, Rowan started to be good even when Dayton was still around - Dayton wasn't holding them back either.

[henfan]

It is a response to the theory that non schollies are bringing down the reputation of I-AA. My point is that whatever perception problems I-AA has exist regardless of the presence of non schollies.

I can't disagree with that, though quasi-D-III FB programs also do not enhance the national image of I-AA, such as it is. Conversely, it doesn't hurt I-AA when a school like UC-Davis joins us and then proceeds to knock off Stanford. I don't have an issue with the perception image so much as I do infrequent demands that quasi-D-IIIs get equal access to the I-AA post-season.

'Perception problems' are going to exist for any FB program or conference outside of the Big 10, Big 12, PAC-10, SEC, ACC, and Big East. I guess I just don't see why that's such a big deal. If schools are so concerned with increasing their national image, they have the option of reclassifying (though I suppose that will become a thing of the past shortly), spending tens of million$ on new facilities, ramping up institutional support, etc. in the hope of joining a D-I 'power conference'. To them I'd say, "Good luck."

[DUPFLFan]

I have been reading both sides of the argument. I'm sorry that most of you feel that the non-scholly degrade the image of D-1aa.

So with the new designations coming up, what you suggesting that non-schollys to do now...

The PFL Commish (Viverito) has stated that PFL won't apply for inclusion in the PCS. We are not BCS, We are not PCS, We are not D-II, We are not D-III, We are not NAIA..

So what in your opinion are we??? (the b**tard step child is not the answer...)

[lucchesicourt]

Non scholly teams can compete with scholly schools. They may not end up playing for the title, but they can definitely compete. UCD as a non schollie D2 could have competed with D1AA's on many occasions. They may not have won, but the 1AA would have known they were in a game. The 2001 UCD team could have given any 1AA defense problems (NFL players on this team- JT O'Sullivan (QB-Saints), Onome Ojo (WR-Chargers), Michael Oliva (WR-Jets), and our best receiver on the team Charlie Enos-though too small for pro level). All wihtout schollies.

[slostang]

Non scholly teams can compete with scholly schools. They may not end up playing for the title, but they can definitely compete. UCD as a non schollie D2 could have competed with D1AA's on many occasions. They may not have won, but the 1AA would have known they were in a game. The 2001 UCD team could have given any 1AA defense problems (NFL players on this team- JT O'Sullivan (QB-Saints), Onome Ojo (WR-Chargers), Michael Oliva (WR-Jets), and our best receiver on the team Charlie Enos-though too small for pro level). All wihtout schollies.
Davis was non scholarship back then, but they gave plenty of grants and other forms of aid. It still was impressive how well they competed in the DII level against fully funded teams and even competed with I-AA teams.

[*****]

... The PFL Commish (Viverito) has stated that PFL won't apply for inclusion in the PCS. We are not BCS, We are not PCS, We are not D-II, We are not D-III, We are not NAIA...DU, you are PCG, everyone in I-AA is (only some SWAC and all the Ivy choose not to playoff). Patty said the PFL is happy playing non-scholly and won't go for an AQ. She is still pushing for a non-scholly playoff and soon you foklks will be locked into the NEC/PFL game. You are still part of the group. You know the answer. Kill the conference sched and beat top teams OOC. No D-II/III/NAIA OOC. Morehead State almost topped App St a couple years ago... play them and beat them.

[henfan]

She is still pushing for a non-scholly playoff and soon you foklks will be locked into the NEC/PFL game. You are still part of the group.

This I-AA nonsense is going to be a thing of the past soon, so there's no need to fret much about who we accept in our little club. We'll all be D-I.

That said, I'd agree with Patti that long-term answer is separate post-season opportunities- whether it be a playoff championship series or bowls- for D-I schools who compete at the D-I 'low equivalancy' level. To help that along, D-I should make some clear delineations as to who qualifies for that level.

For example, schools offering 0 to 36 (the D-II max) equivalancies could fall into that category. The max level could even be raised to 40/45 to encourage schools struggling to sponsor full scholarship D-I programs to take a more financially sensible approach.

Does that sound reasonable?

[midwestgold]

I agree with that.The non-schollies need to step it up an play the best non-conference schedule they can play and then we will see how everything fleshes out.

[lucchesicourt]

UCD was allowed 5-7 schollies over the entire team in 2001. Hardly much in the way of an enticement!!!!

[lucchesicourt]

midwestgold, you are absolutely right. If non schollie teams want to play for the title they need to step up and play the better teams to get noticed. Otherwise, they will be overlooked as their schedule will have been deemed too easy compared to the cream of D1AA, who play the tougher schedules. Overall, record is not always the dtermining factor to getting a playoff bid. SOS and record combined, offer a better way to determine team quality.

[lucchesicourt]

There were also some players on the team who received academic schollies. I do not consider academic schollies an athletic schollies as there were several non athletes who received comparable schollies. An example, would be lineman Chris jones, who sported a 4.0 and went on to medical school. He could have attended any university he chose, and played football. He did not need an athletic schollie to play at any school. He was just plain intelligent and EARNED everything he got. He was a student first and foremost. An athletic schollie makes you an athlete first and foremost. Big difference.

[Jacks99]

It's just comparing two teams, but DIII Wisc - Lacrosse was a decent team and could compete easily in DII, but Valpo was the worst I've ever seen play SDSU:eek: Maybe the NAIA team, William Penn, will take that mark this year...

[Paladin1aa]

I've held off and chuckled at the responses. Former coach and player here. Watched I-AA for long time. Four national titles at YSU and two runners-up. Mt. Union is less than an hour away and see them every year . Watched the National titles pile up there as well. The PSAC in Pa is a good D-II league as is the Great Lakes where Grand Valley dominates in D-II.

Non-scholly I-AA FB is a joke. Worse, those games count for your record to the play-offs while a tougher D-II team does not. And it does diminish I-AA overall. You can make an exception in any division. But the obvious match -ups between I-AA powers and non-schollys would be lop-sided. Even many of the D-II would wipe the field with non-shollies.And not to be callous, But Mt Union is a force most D-II teams would have problems with who would wipe the field with most of the non-schollies.

It is about bigger, faster, tougher and more skilled athletes taking a scholarship vs a non-scholly aid package.

Out here its a joke. And will remain a joke until I-AA changes.The playing field is VASTLY unlevel.

[DetroitFlyer]

What a joke.... On any given Saturday, a Davidson can beat a Georgetown, a San Diego can beat a Yale, a CCSU can beat a Colgate and believe it or not, YSU can lose a game. If I remember right, YSU lost several games last season and sat at home come playoff time.... Any one who is silly enough to generalize that any division of football is a joke, is obviously no student of the game, regardless of your claims to legitimacy! There is a wide range of competitive difference in virtually every conference and every division. And guess what, it varies every year. Some years teams are good, and some years they stink. Only a very few are always on top. The current competitive range in 1-AA is no better or worse than 1-A, Division II, Division III or NAIA. 1-AA is cost containment football. If you do not like it, lobby your school to move to 1-A and be done with it!

[Paladin1aa]

YSU lost to I-A Pitt and a close game at UNI and at SIU.

Thats nothing like playing Georgetown, Drake, Dayton or Morehead St,my alma mater.

A I-AA schedule of scholarship teams would kill the non-schollies. As would good D-II teams. And for Mt Union, the FB purists here have no doubts -- Mount would beat or be near Dayton.

A joke is a joke.

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Intriguing Question & Commentary!!

[jmuroller]

If you wanna play with the big boys, fork out the dough and offer 63 full scholarships, or play Div. III.:eek:


I couldn't agree more.

[*****]

If you wanna play with the big boys, fork out the dough and offer 63 full scholarships, or play Div. III.:eek:Smacks of elitism.

[lucchesicourt]

yes, and and on any given day, a transitional team, moving from D2 non schollie (actually 5-7 schollie equivalents over 100+ players)to D1AA with only27-35 schollie players at the time, can dominate a D1A team like Stanford who had a full schollie complement.

[RabidRabbit]

yes, and and on any given day, a transitional team, moving from D2 non schollie (actually 5-7 schollie equivalents over 100+ players)to D1AA with only27-35 schollie players at the time, can dominate a D1A team like Stanford who had a full schollie complement.

:bow: UCDavis :bow: :bow: You did a nice :asswhip: :asswhip: on them highbrow lowlifes and we in the GWFC thank you for raising the bar for us. Look forward to doing the same in D1-AA.

Settled schedule to share yet?:coach:

[downbythebeach]

Well it is true Mount Union could beat a lot of non schollies, but MUC would also prob beat YSU, so I don't see the point of bringing them up.

[Stang Fever]

People seem to be getting a little off topic here.....i dont want to hear about DII teams with just a few schollies being able to beat I-AA teams....This is about I-AA non schollies vs Div III


someone earlier said that I-AA non schollies are better because they can attrack better players given the fact that they are a Div I school and do play I-AA football granted its non schollies...thats a pretty good argument...But I would imagine that most of I-AA schollie teams would more then likely win Div III national title.....while most I-AA non schollies wouldnt.......this is because I-AA non schollies doesnt play hard teams and if they do its one game a year....its easy to get up for a one big game....but its a little harder to play good teams weak in and weak out

[blukeys]

Well it is true Mount Union could beat a lot of non schollies, but MUC would also prob beat YSU, so I don't see the point of bringing them up.


Give me even money on that game and a $100 bet per game and I will take YSU every time over Mount Union. (I may lose once in ten games) I have seen quality D-3 teams over the last 5 years at Rowan in NJ and Wesley College in De and neither could hang with a top 25 I-AA.

I have seen YSU many times they are a solid I-AA program in their worst years.

[Tod]

Give me even money on that game and a $100 bet per game and I will take YSU every time over Mount Union. (I may lose once in ten games) I have seen quality D-3 teams over the last 5 years at Rowan in NJ and Wesley College in De and neither could hang with a top 25 I-AA.

I have seen YSU many times they are a solid I-AA program in their worst years.

You are way off, bk. YSU might lose once in 100 games, twice if the football gods deem it.

[Stang Fever]

Could not agree anymore then that

[blukeys]

You are way off, bk. YSU might lose once in 100 games, twice if the football gods deem it.


So are you going to add your $100.00 to the betting pool Tod? OR Do you have to check with the Mrs. first? Just checkin' ;) ;) ;) ;)

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Tod]

So are you going to add your $100.00 to the betting pool Tod? OR Do you have to check with the Mrs. first? Just checkin' ;) ;) ;) ;)

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Before those 10 games are played, I'll be dead. :bawling: :bawling:

[lucchesicourt]

IMO, D1AA non schollie is more equivalen to D2 teams rather than D3. It would be more logical to compare 1AA non schollie schools to the D2 level.

[Stang Fever]

IMO, D1AA non schollie is more equivalen to D2 teams rather than D3. It would be more logical to compare 1AA non schollie schools to the D2 level.


Okay....that sounds good.....but what would make you say that

in your opinion whats the difference between D2 and DIII

[lucchesicourt]

Most D2's allow schollies, D3 not so!! That's the difference!

[lucchesicourt]

UCD was a unique non schollie school when we were D2. We had over 20,000 students, offered a superior education, and great weather. Most D3 schools were small, didn't put much into their sports programs, and did not have a growing reputation. UCD did all of this. Someday, UCD may be the largest UC as they are the only campus with lots of room to grow. Right now, we are about even with UCLA and Cal in attendance. If UCD did not put money into their sports programs we would NOT be where we are today, IMO!