Stony Brook to be I-AA Independent in 2007

[damparrow]

From Newsday:

Stony Brook football in motion
by Tom Rock

"Stony Brook will announce today that it plans to compete as a Division I-AA independent beginning with the 2007 season and will begin phasing in scholarships until it reaches the full complement of 63 allowed by the NCAA. NEC schools will be allowed 30 scholarships beginning this fall."

http://www.newsday.com/sports/outdoors/ny-skcolmain104697266apr10,0,4886616.column?coll=ny-outdoors-headlines

[Dane96]

This has been in the works for sometime. We were apprised of this last week at a meeting for UA donors.

UA will most likely follow suit.

Look for an announcement on a new football league...very soon!!!

I believe some people here railed against many of us prediciting the move out of the NEC because we re-upped until 2010.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Whoa.... doesn't this just set the wheels in motion.

Stony Brook is in America East in all other sports, but it doesn't seem likely they'll be without a home for long IMO.

They could ultimately be:
* an affiliate in the CAA
* an affiliate in the PL
* with a CAA breakup, SB could be part of an "America East" conference

It's one of these three, for sure. Let the talk of the CAA breaking up start again....... now.

[LUHawker]

Whoa.... doesn't this just set the wheels in motion.

Stony Brook is in America East in all other sports, but it doesn't seem likely they'll be without a home for long IMO.

They could ultimately be:
* an affiliate in the CAA
* an affiliate in the PL
* with a CAA breakup, SB could be part of an "America East" conference

It's one of these three, for sure. Let the talk of the CAA breaking up start again....... now.

Come on LFN, there is no way in hell that Stony Brook becomes an affiliate in the Patriot League. I know from many of your posts over the past couple of years that you'd like to see an expansion of the PL, but please, not with Stony Brook. There just isn't a fit whatsoever. If the PL didn't take Hofstra several years back, it sure isn't taking SB.

[Dane96]

Look for the America East football conference announcement in the very, very near future.

SBU and UA will never be invited to the PL; we were rejected 7 years ago not because of academics rather because of the state school costs.

[colgate13]

Yea, LFN, you can knock off #2 on your list, and IMO, #1. This is all about America East football in, what Albany fans, 2-3 years?

PL expansion is not going to be done willy-nilly. There will not be another Towson in the mix.

[GannonFan]

None of this is too stunning - both Albany and Stony Brook are big state schools that have pretty much hinted that they were moving away from non-scholly football. This is just a natural progression. And the likes of Maine and possibly UNH are odd ducklings in the CAA - both are far north and, although UNH would probably like to be in the CAA, the CAA isn't going to expand much anymore. I wouldn't expect the CAA to take anybody else in unless there are defections. With that said, any of the New England schools are very real possibilities for an America East football conference - although not seen on the field really, there is a divide in terms of football support between the New England and the more Southern football schools (facilities, attendance, etc). Like I said, it doesn't manifest itself in terms of football quality (UNH is a good example now, as was Maine a few years ago), but culturally there is a difference between the two regions.

I still think if there is a break, which I'm sure will come eventually, it will remain a CAA and America East deal - I don't see the Patriot really being affected much by this. Richmond almost saw a complete riot when they toyed with joining the Patriot just last year so there isn't a lot of alumni support to make that move. nova loses tons of money every year on football so a move for them to the Patriot and losing the guarantee of a big gate from a Delaware game every other year would be tough pill to swallow - I still think nova either goes IA (unlikely), stays with UD as long as they can (more likely), or just drops football (not too likely), but I don't see a Patriot League affiliation in their future.

A CAA/America East break would probably see the New England schools (Maine, UNH, UMass, URI) in the AEast along with Albany and Stony Brook and would probably see Richmond and nova stay with the full-time CAA schools (Hofstra, Northeastern, JMU, UD, Towson, W&M, and in 2009 ODU) - 6 for the AEast and 9 for the CAA, pending anyone else moving around (maybe Central Connecticut St? Maybe Dusquene?).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree it isn't *likely*. but if SB were desperate for a place to end up, we'd be foolish not to think about it. I didn't put the likelihood of SB joining the PL - it's obviously a small number - but it's a possibility.

[colgate13]

I agree it isn't *likely*. but if SB were desperate for a place to end up, we'd be foolish not to think about it. I didn't put the likelihood of SB joining the PL - it's obviously a small number - but it's a possibility.
We'd be foolish to accept it. No offense to Stony Brook at all, but the PL is trying to become recognized as a national conference comprised of outstanding academic schools with good athletics and - with the exception of the odd duck academies who don't really fit anywhere - who are all private schools.

More importantly for this discussion though, for Stony Brook to end up in the PL with 63 scholarships... something has to change in the PL! And if something changes in the PL allowing scholarships, GannonFan's valid points about Richmond and Villanova now have a different dimension to the discussion.

Bottom line, for SB to be in the PL the PL needs to allow football schollies - and if the PL is allowing football schollies, we better hope to land some pretty big fish. I don't see SB fitting that bill. :twocents:

[aceinthehole]

None of this is too stunning - both Albany and Stony Brook are big state schools that have pretty much hinted that they were moving away from non-scholly football. This is just a natural progression. And the likes of Maine and possibly UNH are odd ducklings in the CAA - both are far north and, although UNH would probably like to be in the CAA, the CAA isn't going to expand much anymore. I wouldn't expect the CAA to take anybody else in unless there are defections. With that said, any of the New England schools are very real possibilities for an America East football conference - although not seen on the field really, there is a divide in terms of football support between the New England and the more Southern football schools (facilities, attendance, etc). Like I said, it doesn't manifest itself in terms of football quality (UNH is a good example now, as was Maine a few years ago), but culturally there is a difference between the two regions.

I still think if there is a break, which I'm sure will come eventually, it will remain a CAA and America East deal - I don't see the Patriot really being affected much by this. Richmond almost saw a complete riot when they toyed with joining the Patriot just last year so there isn't a lot of alumni support to make that move. nova loses tons of money every year on football so a move for them to the Patriot and losing the guarantee of a big gate from a Delaware game every other year would be tough pill to swallow - I still think nova either goes IA (unlikely), stays with UD as long as they can (more likely), or just drops football (not too likely), but I don't see a Patriot League affiliation in their future.

A CAA/America East break would probably see the New England schools (Maine, UNH, UMass, URI) in the AEast along with Albany and Stony Brook and would probably see Richmond and nova stay with the full-time CAA schools (Hofstra, Northeastern, JMU, UD, Towson, W&M, and in 2009 ODU) - 6 for the AEast and 9 for the CAA, pending anyone else moving around (maybe Central Connecticut St? Maybe Dusquene?).

I was one of the doubters becasue of the NEC contract. But I guess if you can afford 63 scholly and $25 million stadium, then who cares about the "exit fee!" Good for SBU. And yes, I suppose UA is just around the corner from a similar announcement.

Anyway, I think GF has it about right - the New England CAA affiliates join SBU and UA for America East football, plus possibly adding CCSU too :) The CAA keeps the 9 all-sports members for football, with expansion from within (ODU, GMU, etc).

But what about the auto-bid? AE football as described above is not a bad conference, but it still makes no sense for the CAA FB affilates to join up with the SUNYs unless the were assured an auto-bid.

IMO - playoff expansion and/or autobids is still a prerequiste for signifigant conference changes. Without it, UA and SBU may be independent a lot longer than they want.

[blukeys]

Look for the America East football conference announcement in the very, very near future.

SBU and UA will never be invited to the PL; we were rejected 7 years ago not because of academics rather because of the state school costs.

How near? Are we talking within a couple of years or in the next month?

[dbackjon]

mainejeff has been predicting AE football for a while - I hope it happens.

Good to see another team step up to full-scholie level.

[Dane96]

How near? Are we talking within a couple of years or in the next month?


check your pm

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I still think if there is a break, which I'm sure will come eventually, it will remain a CAA and America East deal - I don't see the Patriot really being affected much by this. ...

A CAA/America East break would probably see the New England schools (Maine, UNH, UMass, URI) in the AEast along with Albany and Stony Brook and would probably see Richmond and nova stay with the full-time CAA schools (Hofstra, Northeastern, JMU, UD, Towson, W&M, and in 2009 ODU) - 6 for the AEast and 9 for the CAA, pending anyone else moving around (maybe Central Connecticut St? Maybe Dusquene?).

When it comes to Richmond and Villanova as affiliates anywhere, you'[ve got to think any breakup will cause teams to weigh their options. The PL is an option for both schools for sure. Both have a compelling reason to go PL (Villanova - cutting costs; Richmond - breaking away from their disliked conference, the CAA, in which they formerly were all-sports members). But in the event, it looks like those would be aftereffects of some bigger event (losing affiliates to an AEC) than pursued in their own right immediately.

One thing that gets overlooked in this discussion of the AEC (and, getting back on topic, SB's I-AA independent schedule) is future scheduling. SB will have 11 games to fill. A 6-member AEC will have 6 OOC games to fill. A 9-member CAA will have 3 OOC games to fill. The Patriot League would have no shortage of possible opponents for great OOC games, and that's where the PL really gets affected by this breakup.

PL/CAA weekend
Holy Cross vs. Northeastern
Fordham vs. Hofstra
Lehigh vs. Delaware
Lafayette vs. JMU
Bucknell vs. Towson
G'Town vs. Richmond
Colgate vs. Villanova

AEC/CAA Weekend
Maine vs. Northeastern
Stony Brook vs. Hofstra
UMass vs. Delaware
UNH vs. Villanova
Albany vs. Towson
URI vs. W&M

Finally, AEC vs. PL:
Colgate vs. UMass
Holy Cross vs. Albany
Lafayette vs. Maine
Lehigh vs. UNH
Bucknell vs. URI
Fordham vs. Stony Brook

All bus trips, and all potentially pretty good games and/or rivalries (OK, maybe a few duds like URI/W&M or Lafayette/Maine). I think you'd see a lot of all three conferences playing each other OOC. But note the abundance of great OOC matchups in the NYC area (with Fordham/SB/Hofstra), and Massachusetts (Holy Cross/Northeastern/UMass/Maine/UNH -- and even throw Harvard in that mix and it's even better).

[colgate13]

The PL is an option for both schools for sure. Both have a compelling reason to go PL (Villanova - cutting costs;
How would going to the PL cut costs for Villanova? We outspend them already I think... and I don't think travel in the CAA is that big of an issue with their more central location in the league.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How would going to the PL cut costs for Villanova? We outspend them already I think... and I don't think travel in the CAA is that big of an issue with their more central location in the league.

Day trips to Bucknell, Colgate, Georgetown, Lehigh, Lafayette instead of overnight trips to UMass, Maine, UNH, URI, Towson, Richmond, etc. Add ODU and possibly Georgia St. to the mix too down the road...

[DTSpider]

Great discussion on this. I don't know if it makes a difference, but the A10 schools have all signed up with the CAA. Every school except Richmond signed immediately. So I don't know if there's an exit fee involved. URI, UNH, UMass & Maine would give a new AE type conference some instant qualifications.

Not sure teams like Hostra & Northeastern would feel about losing their travel partners from the A10/CAA. The A10/CAA schools all appear to be happy with the current arrangement of teams.

[mainejeff]

Wow......this is a shocker :rolleyes: .

[PMB4Life]

Love the Maine baseball unis... reminescent of the Royals of the 1980's.:D

[henfan]

But what about the auto-bid? AE football as described above is not a bad conference, but it still makes no sense for the CAA FB affilates to join up with the SUNYs unless the were assured an auto-bid.

Ace, the CAA assumes the A-10's autobid when it takes control of the league in Sept. 2007. There will be no full CAA members moving to other leagues because it would involve exhorbitant buyouts.

If any other leagues form from CAA affiliates, they would have to apply for an autobid. That new league would have to have a core group of 6 members, all of whom have played together continuously for 3 years or longer in order to be eligible for their own bid.


I don't know if it makes a difference, but the A10 schools have all signed up with the CAA. Every school except Richmond signed immediately. So I don't know if there's an exit fee involved...

Not sure teams like Hostra & Northeastern would feel about losing their travel partners from the A10/CAA. The A10/CAA schools all appear to be happy with the current arrangement of teams.

I don't know for certain but people I talk with think it's highly unlikely the CAA contractually bound its affiliate football teams for longer than a year. As I've been saying for months, I believe some amicable agreement was made prior to the CAA assuming control of the A-10 Football League that there would be a mutual separation between the CAA and some of its affiliates at some point in the near future. It's likely what the CAA and certain affiliates would want.

Any move to a different conference by the affiliates would not affect full CAA members Hofstra or Northeastern in the least. There are no travel partners in the A-10 Football League as it exists now and there certainly aren't travel partners in the CAA Olympic sport league. That's an antiquated concept.

One final thing to consider: the CAA Olympic sport league may consider completing its expansion plan by adding 2 final teams, going to 14 total with 2 divisions. Obviously that might have some repercussions to leagues elsewhere.

[colgate13]

Day trips to Bucknell, Colgate, Georgetown, Lehigh, Lafayette instead of overnight trips to UMass, Maine, UNH, URI, Towson, Richmond, etc. Add ODU and possibly Georgia St. to the mix too down the road...

Day trips?

Nova to Colgate: 245 miles
Nova to UMass: 263 miles (btw, Lehigh doesn't do a day trip to Hamilton and they're an hour closer!)

Nova to Georgetown: 138 miles
Nova to Towson: 98 miles

Nova to Bucknell: 163 miles
Nova to URI: 255 miles

I don't see any real benefit here at all.

Day trips are pretty darn impossible at this level. Besides wanting to practice at the facility the night before, logistically you DON'T want to be trying to stay on campus when having a game more than an hour away the next day. Too much could go wrong. Colgate/Cornell is the only day trip we have. I bet Lehigh/Lafayette is the only one either of you have as well.

More importantly though, the cost of a I-AA program is not in travel, it's in scholarships/equivalencies. Trying to shave $100-$200K off a budget of $3 million plus by skimping on travel is a bad idea IMO.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.


AE Football scenarios without an auto-bid are unacceptable to UNH.
AE Football without at least seven all sports members playing football is not a solid foundation IMO.
Sorry, but I don't invest UNH's football future relying on UMass and URI to maintain playoff eligibility (six teams).
All of the potential expansion candidates for football are not like minded institutions to Maine, UNH, Albany and Stony Brook. Just like there is a common thread among Patriot schools, there is within America East as well. Other than BU and Hartford, everybody else is a medium sized public intitution. And BU is a large private which distinguishes them from NEC schools which include many small, private, urban istitutions.
I'm still not convinced that BU, Hartford and Vermont will approve AE Football this time around. And they've got UMBC and Binghamton as non football partners this time around unlike the prior iteration when Hofstra, Delaware and Towson were in the league.

[bluehenbillk]

The irony over comparing Maine's baseball uni's to those of the Royals in the 80's is the 80's was the last time Maine's baseball team was any good.

[blukeys]

I've heard a lot of talk about Nova making a PL move but this has always been from PL posters. I have yet to hear any Nova fans show an interest in such a move nor have I read any articles that Nova is showing any interest in changing it's football affiliation.

How much of this is just wishful thinking by PL fans?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

When it comes to Richmond and Villanova as affiliates anywhere, you'[ve got to think any breakup will cause teams to weigh their options. The PL is an option for both schools for sure. Both have a compelling reason to go PL (Villanova - cutting costs; Richmond - breaking away from their disliked conference, the CAA, in which they formerly were all-sports members). But in the event, it looks like those would be aftereffects of some bigger event (losing affiliates to an AEC) than pursued in their own right immediately.

One thing that gets overlooked in this discussion of the AEC (and, getting back on topic, SB's I-AA independent schedule) is future scheduling. SB will have 11 games to fill. A 6-member AEC will have 6 OOC games to fill. A 9-member CAA will have 3 OOC games to fill. The Patriot League would have no shortage of possible opponents for great OOC games, and that's where the PL really gets affected by this breakup.

AEC/CAA Weekend
Maine vs. Northeastern
Stony Brook vs. Hofstra
UMass vs. Delaware
UNH vs. Villanova
Albany vs. Towson
URI vs. W&M

Finally, AEC vs. PL:
Colgate vs. UMass
Holy Cross vs. Albany
Lafayette vs. Maine
Lehigh vs. UNH
Bucknell vs. URI
Fordham vs. Stony Brook

All bus trips, and all potentially pretty good games and/or rivalries (OK, maybe a few duds like URI/W&M or Lafayette/Maine). I think you'd see a lot of all three conferences playing each other OOC. But note the abundance of great OOC matchups in the NYC area (with Fordham/SB/Hofstra), and Massachusetts (Holy Cross/Northeastern/UMass/Maine/UNH -- and even throw Harvard in that mix and it's even better).

LFN,

FWIW, Villanova would probably be the least likely CAA team that UNH would have for an OOC opponent. Obviously, Northeastern, Delaware, Hofstra and Towson would be the most likely opponents (probably in that order). They've all been conference partners with UNH and in the case of NU and UD, they've been playing football since back in the 50's/60's. And seeing that Richmond joined the old Yankee Conference with Delaware back in 1986, I'd put them higher on the list than Nova. And with W&M and JMU being public institutions, I'd put them higher than Nova. Besides Nova being a Big East school would really rather play a bigger school.

No arguments with you on starting a Lehigh-UNH series!! After our matchup in the 1975 D-II Playoffs, we had a short series. To me, the PL opponents that make the most sense for UNH are Holy Cross (:doh: must be all of an hour and 20 minutes from Durham to Worcester) and Colgate (former NAC mate) then Lehigh/Lafayette/Bucknell (to have games close to the homes of so many UNH players in PA and NJ).

[colgate13]

How much of this is just wishful thinking by PL fans?
100%

[mainejeff]

The irony over comparing Maine's baseball uni's to those of the Royals in the 80's is the 80's was the last time Maine's baseball team was any good.

Wrong......we've been to the NCAAs in 90, 91, 93, 02, and 05. We won 2 games in the 91 regional including a win over Mississippi State. Last season we beat Southern Miss and lost 11-10 to Oklahoma in the regional. Delaware is not even close to Maine when it comes to NCAA and CWS history and success.:)

Getting anxious for new football rivals ODU and Georgia State?;)

[bluehenbillk]

The few Nova fans there are express a desire to do just the opposite, go 1-A.

[LUHawker]

I've heard a lot of talk about Nova making a PL move but this has always been from PL posters. I have yet to hear any Nova fans show an interest in such a move nor have I read any articles that Nova is showing any interest in changing it's football affiliation.

How much of this is just wishful thinking by PL fans?

That's a good point bluekeys, but perhaps we should qualify that question with a more general question: "Has there been any appreciable showing of support for Nova football at all?"

I'll also highlight that while Nova officially (or at least Talley) continues to eschew the idea of joining the Patriot League, it should be noted that Lehigh and Nova have a 6 year deal and Nova has played Bucknell the past couple of years, which may be them "feeling out" the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For the record, I am NOT thrilled about Villanova joining the PL, since they don't really offer much to the PL in terms of facilities or interest in football, to be honest. Villanova hasn't bothered to develop rivalries with Lehigh, Lafayette or Bucknell over the years. Granted, in recent years they have been trying harder, but Villanova for whatever reason doesn't really "fit in". They don't add any footprint geographically, and (strange, I know) don't add any rivalry. Finally, Villanova allows the PL to be perceived as a "Pennsylvania-only" league - a big danger to the PL in general.

Richmond, on the other hand, expands the Patriot footprint with a school that loves their football team. I think the Spiders are a much better fit IMO.

[LUHawker]

For the record, I am NOT thrilled about Villanova joining the PL, since they don't really offer much to the PL in terms of facilities or interest in football, to be honest. Villanova hasn't bothered to develop rivalries with Lehigh, Lafayette or Bucknell over the years. Granted, in recent years they have been trying harder, but Villanova for whatever reason doesn't really "fit in". They don't add any footprint geographically, and (strange, I know) don't add any rivalry. Finally, Villanova allows the PL to be perceived as a "Pennsylvania-only" league - a big danger to the PL in general.

Richmond, on the other hand, expands the Patriot footprint with a school that loves their football team. I think the Spiders are a much better fit IMO.

LFN, I think you make two great points about Villanova not adding much, but how Richmond would to the PL, both in terms of geography and interest. Scholarships in the PL could facilitate making that a reality but it's tough to think its likely given that Richmond stiff-armed the PL this past year.

[DTSpider]

The non-scholarship issue is big with Richmond concerning the Patriot League. UR alumni have not forgotten the money they gave back in the early 80's to fully fund the program in order for it to continue as a 1A. The admin met in secret to vote on the 1AA move. The meeting in which the PL move was discussed was leaked by a board member to the press. If not for that leak UR would now be in the Patriot League according to sources close to the situation.

It may eventually be the right move, but it'll be a long time until UR fans think of a possible PL move in a different light. Not to mention the sacrifices being made to keep the full scholarships at the 1AA level. Until more PL members bring up their funding I don't think it's a move UR would want to make.

If, or maybe when, JMU moves to 1A than you very may well see UR and W&M take a much more serious look at the PL.

[mainejeff]

If, or maybe when, JMU moves to 1A than you very may well see UR and W&M take a much more serious look at the PL.

What would happen to Delaware in that scenario?

[blukeys]

That's a good point bluekeys, but perhaps we should qualify that question with a more general question: "Has there been any appreciable showing of support for Nova football at all?"

I'll also highlight that while Nova officially (or at least Talley) continues to eschew the idea of joining the Patriot League, it should be noted that Lehigh and Nova have a 6 year deal and Nova has played Bucknell the past couple of years, which may be them "feeling out" the PL.


They may be feeling out the PL but my exposure to Nova going back to the 60's is that they will not take a step that is perceived as a step down. Nova clung to the D-I moniker during the 60's and 70's despite losing money and prestige before dumping football altogether.

Nova sees itself as a national University and wants to compete at the highest level in all sports. In the East in I-AA football that is CAA/A10. With all due respect to my PL brethren, the Nova alums who matter would see a PL move as step down even if the PL gets scollies. There is no way the few Nova fans who care about football will see Lehigh and Bucknell as the equivalents of Delaware, JMU and Umass. On my part this is not a knock on PL teams, it is simply my perception based on dealings with Nova grads.

My experience with Nova grads who actually know that Nova has a football team is that rival #1 is Delaware. This does not compare to the intensity of feeling that UD fans have about Nova but the few Nova football fans who exist do know that Delaware is public enemy No.1. Nova fans will name other A-10/Caa teams along with Temple, Penn, and Rutgers as rivals. I have never heard a Nova fan list any PL team as a rival or even consider it. For the record the Nova fans who come to UD games are maybe some of the best visitors I have ever met. They are totally Nova indoctrinated but you can have a beer with them and they will admit that the UD football program is envied on the Nova campus.

Still I hope we kick their butts by 50+ points every year. (Did you expect less?)

The few Nova fans who care about football will not take kindly to diminishing the UD - Nova game by changing conferences. For all of you PL fans, should Lehigh join the CAA and thereby diminish the LU/LC game, So that they can compete with UD, JMU and Umass??

I think not and there is the rub. There is no historic rivalry with Nova and PL teams. The Nova fans who care about football want to beat Delaware. They really don't care if they beat Lehigh or not.

Over the Years much has ridden in the Yankee/A10/CAA conference on the year end Nova-UD game. I don't see how either school benefits by diminishing this game. What PL game would deliver to Nova the equivalent monetarilly either as a home or away game that Delaware delivers to Nova???????????????????????????????????

Nova's best attendance is when UD comes to the Main Line. Nova's best I-AA guarantee is in Newark. Can Bucknell fill this bill?????:nono: I don't think so.

[blukeys]

What would happen to Delaware in that scenario?

Any move made by JMU will be made in conjuction with Delaware and William and Mary. These 3 presidents are joined at the hip. The forces pushing to I-A exist at all 3 schools (more so at UD then anywhere else). Any move will be based on finances that make sense. Right now there is no real clear cut case for making money at any of the three.

My Prediction is that any move to I-A will involve all 3 along with a conference that includes Army and Navy but that is at least 5 + years in tghe future.

[JMU Duke Dog]

Any move made by JMU will be made in conjuction with Delaware and William and Mary. These 3 presidents are joined at the hip. The forces pushing to I-A exist at all 3 schools (more so at UD then anywhere else). Any move will be based on finances that make sense. Right now there is no real clear cut case for making money at any of the three.

My Prediction is that any move to I-A will involve all 3 along with a conference that includes Army and Navy but that is at least 5 + years in tghe future.

You think Appalachian State could be involved in a plan as well?

[*****]

You think Appalachian State could be involved in a plan as well?Dooky, the other sports board is over there ------> That's where you and your App St to I-A buddy can talk it up. Have fun!

[JMU Duke Dog]

Dooky, the other sports board is over there ------> That's where you and your App St to I-A buddy can talk it up. Have fun!

Ralph, I am not saying that JMU should go to I-A with or without Appalachian State. I enjoy I-AA but I am just curious to others' information. This was brought up by a Delaware poster by the way.

[*****]

Okay, then all should discuss it on the appropriate board. No biggie. Nothing personal at all. :)

BTW, App St. to I-A has never been announced, same as JMU. Won't matter once the As are dropped anyway.

[blukeys]

You think Appalachian State could be involved in a plan as well?


Not with Rozelle at the helm as president. Rozelle saw his mission as turning Delaware into a quasi- Ivy League school right down to hiring Harvard's football coach as a replacement for Tubby Raymond. Yes you heard it here first, The Delaware faithful would not accept a Harvard Coach to sail the UD ship, that is how we got KC Keeler!!!!!!!

As a football fan I think App State is a great match with UD. However, Rozelle and his Ivy League adherents still have a lot of sway in Newark. Their arguments would be that that App State does not meet the academic "profile" of UD and so should not be scheduled.

William and Mary, JMU, and Richmond all fit in Rozelle's profile.

Based on my analysis App. State does not. No knock on App. This is just the way I see the current administration.

[mainejeff]

My hope is to see a core of:

Maine
UNH
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook

And it would be great to also see:

Northeastern
Hofstra

But everyone in the CAA says that they will never leave, so we'll just have to wait and see.

[DFW HOYA]

Nova sees itself as a national University and wants to compete at the highest level in all sports. In the East in I-AA football that is CAA/A10. With all due respect to my PL brethren, the Nova alums who matter would see a PL move as step down even if the PL gets scollies. There is no way the few Nova fans who care about football will see Lehigh and Bucknell as the equivalents of Delaware, JMU and Umass. On my part this is not a knock on PL teams, it is simply my perception based on dealings with Nova grads.

The few Nova fans who care about football will not take kindly to diminishing the UD - Nova game by changing conferences. For all of you PL fans, should Lehigh join the CAA and thereby diminish the LU/LC game, So that they can compete with UD, JMU and Umass??

I think not and there is the rub. There is no historic rivalry with Nova and PL teams. The Nova fans who care about football want to beat Delaware. They really don't care if they beat Lehigh or not.



The PL isn't just Bucknell and Lafayette, it's Georgetown, Holy Cross, and Fordham. Georgetown has more national aspirations than Villanova but is mindful that the PL is a safe harbor for its team absent a multi-million dollar investment in football which the school does not have.

Take out Delaware and there's not a single Yankee/ A-10/CAA team that stirs up local interest. Would more fans come to a game in Phila. with Lehigh or Maine? Georgetown or Northeastern? Fordham or Hofstra?

There are long standing academic and athletic ties between alumni of Villanova, Georgetown, Holy Cross, and Fordham, but the CAA folks would like you to think that Villanova would be just as fine with Old Dominion and Georgia State in its football future.

[GannonFan]

There are long standing academic and athletic ties between alumni of Villanova, Georgetown, Holy Cross, and Fordham, but the CAA folks would like you to think that Villanova would be just as fine with Old Dominion and Georgia State in its football future.

Nonsense - where do you see CAA people spouting that? Being a lifelong UD fan and the spouse of a nova grad, I can tell you from the nova perspective that 1) not that many people at nova care about football and 2) after Delaware, they really don't care much for the rest of I-AA. nova likes playing Delaware because there is a very long history and the series has been extremely competitive (I think UD has a 2 game lead now in a 40-some game series including times when nova was DI and UD was DII) and because Delaware gives them a way to slow the bleeding that is their financial losses from having a football team. A UD sellout at nova is an every other year occurrence and not something that happens for any other team. Their fanbase isn't happy with playing the likes of Towson or just about any New England school in the A10/CAA, let alone a steady diet of Patriot League teams. They like to think their basketball national presence extends into football and to them, stepping down to play IAA teams is an annoyance.

For now, and for the forseeable future, nova is tied with Delaware - if they broke conference affiliation with Delaware they would very likely never play UD on the Maine Line again - any games would be in Newark (there is some precedent for this as even Penn has a very lopsided scheduling arrangement with nova that includes nova "home" games played at Penn's Franklin Field - Delaware would certainly play a similar hardball approach as UD loves home games). For a program that loses as much money as they do, voluntarily choosing to lose more while angering what fanbase they have with a move to the Patriot League doesn't seem like a likely move.

[rufus]

Personally I'm not 100% sure that UMass would want to join AEC football. UMass has toyed with the idea of moving to I-A in the past, and I have a feeling that many in their administration and alumni community may view a move to the AEC as a step backwards. I would have to question whether their admin will see Albany and Stony Brook as a step up from Delaware and JMU, even when taking into account the geography and travel costs.

On the subject of the JMU/UD/W&M/App I-A thing... none of those schools are moving anywhere in the next few years. It's also extremely unlikely that W&M will ever move to I-A. Although if JMU and Delaware were to move to I-A, I think W&M would be put in the position of deciding whether to follow them to I-A or follow Richmond to the PL.

[rufus]

There are long standing academic and athletic ties between alumni of Villanova, Georgetown, Holy Cross, and Fordham, but the CAA folks would like you to think that Villanova would be just as fine with Old Dominion and Georgia State in its football future.

Yeah, I have to agree with GF on that one. I don't see too many see fans saying anything like that.

Most JMU fans that I know are very concerned about the watering down of the CAA football conference. I'm sure fans from Delaware and W&M share our concern. ODU and the other commuter schools that have now been given free tickets to CAA football are not exactly academic replacements for affiliates like Richmond and Villanova. JMU, UD, and W&M would be out of place in an all-commuter CAA football conference if that day ever comes. I have to say that I'm happy with the current A10 line up, and I'll be very disappointed to see it go if AEC football comes to fruiition.

[henfan]

Most JMU fans that I know are very concerned about the watering down of the CAA football conference. I'm sure fans from Delaware and W&M share our concern. ODU and the other commuter schools that have now been given free tickets to CAA football are not exactly academic replacements for affiliates like Richmond and Villanova.

I'm not sure I follow your comments with respect to ODU, Rufus. You can argue competitive 'watering down', if you like, but bringing in the academic angle is simply ridiculous.

First, you are aware that JMU and W&M are two institutions who voluntarily voted to include ODU in the CAA over 15 years ago and that UD willing agreed to join this same athletic alliance 5 years ago, right? On what basis would JMU, W&M and UD suddenly be concerned about ODU's academics regarding football, when they have competed with JMU & W&M as conference partners in nearly two dozen sports for over the last decade and a half? That just makes no sense at all.

VU and UR are terrific academic institutions who have run above-the-board D-I football programs. There's no reason to suggest ODU wouldn't act similarly, as they have done with their Olympic sports.


I have to say that I'm happy with the current A10 line up, and I'll be very disappointed to see it go if AEC football comes to fruiition.

I've liked UD's affiliation with UNH and UMaine in particular and I'd regret seeing them permanently off UD's schedule. IMO, it was a real blow to I-AA football in the East when the America East rejected an earlier common sense expansion plan that would've brought together UMaine, UNH, Northeastern, Hofstra, Delaware, Towson, JMU, W&M and ODU (and others) for all sports. But time moves on and schools and conferences have got to do what's in their own best interest.

[henfan]

And it would be great to also see:

Northeastern
Hofstra

But everyone in the CAA says that they will never leave, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Jeff, never is a long time and I've yet to read where anyone suggested that. Being realistic though, has anyone ever made a logical case why HU and NU would want to leave the CAA any time soon?

From the competitive standpoint, there's just no question the CAA has been a superior to the AEC in most sports, and I mean that with all due respect to the AEC. There are some great teams in the AEC Olympic sport league. A move back to the CAA would only make sense in the context of HU and NU wanting to actually downgrade their competitive level across the board. So far, competitiveness in the CAA hasn't been an issue for either HU or NU. (UD, well, that's another story!:eyebrow:)

As for travel, the AEC is much more concentrated and, obviously, cheaper for HU and NU than life in the CAA. However, this was the case before HU and NU committed to the CAA and both schools were fully aware of potential travel costs when considereding the conference switch. What has changed at either school that would cause HU and NU's Boards of Trustees to reverse costly and important institutional decisions made only a few years ago?

If travel ever became a troubling issue for the CAA's northernmost and southernmost schools, it's something easily remedied through expansion. If the CAA expanded to 14, went to two divisions for Olympic sports, travel could become much more regionalized and costs reduced. This is an avenue the CAA has already discussed in the recent past and, IMO, one that isn't going to go away as the cost of fuel increases.

With regards to football, a fledgling AEC conference could not guarantee NU or HU an auto-bid for at least 3 years after the league's formation. While maybe not the biggest obstacle to attracting HU and NU back, this certainly is not something the AEC has going for it. HU FB spent too long as a I-AA indy without an auto-bid before entering the A-10. I just don't see them taking a risk on the AEC, when the league didn't come through for them when it had the chance in the late '90's. Time marches on.

[Umass74]

Personally I'm not 100% sure that UMass would want to join AEC football. UMass has toyed with the idea of moving to I-A in the past, and I have a feeling that many in their administration and alumni community may view a move to the AEC as a step backwards. I would have to question whether their admin will see Albany and Stony Brook as a step up from Delaware and JMU, even when taking into account the geography and travel costs.

There are just too many variables to take into account here. First and foremost UMass wants to stay in a good basketball league (I understand that A10 basketball has been down lately).

Temple is one of the core programs in A10 basketball. If they leave for the MAC, that's going to cause an earthquake in the basketball A10. Another factor is if the Catholic schools form a "Catholic" league. Most of the "St. Something" schools have very low athletic budgets and nothing in common with state schools.

IMHO, UMass would join a "New Yankee" league if they had to.

Again IMHO, it would be a shame if the current A10 football schools break up. The league is deep and competative. You don't see that with most I-AA leagues. Even URI is renovating its stadium and making improvments.

[*****]

Weird that there is only one post from a Seawolves fan on this thread...

[Hansel]

America East football + Big South with 6 teams.... this will either lead to the death of the autobid or expansion on the playoffs..

[Dane96]

Weird that there is only one post from a Seawolves fan on this thread...


Not so much; on the AE boards there are like 5 fans. Darth FIORE believes he will create a culture immediately at a school which has limited fan support, by moving up quickly. He may be right...but more than likely will be wrong.

Remember, this is the same man who gave an extension to a first year head coach in the AE because he allegedly got the top 40 recruiting hoops class (YEAH...OK!!!).

The extension made the coach a near 300k coach in Eastern Long Island. TO put it into perspective....that is nearly double the MAAC schools and right around what some CAA coach's make. For Pete's sake, Arizona State offered a FULL package to Jamie Dixon of 900k. AND THAT's a PAC TEN SCHOOL.

Fiore is insane.

[henfan]

Darth FIORE believes he will create a culture immediately at a school which has limited fan support, by moving up quickly...
Fiore is insane.

Ruler of the America East's "Evil Empire"?xlolx

[Dane96]

Yes...he actually called himself the leader of the Evil Empire in some old news article.

Go to bigpurplefans.com right now....we are paying homage to Darth Seawolve right now.

Top left corner pic.

I dunno, I think before you go without your brethren (they were supposed to do this in 07 with Albany...but needed to "one up" us) you would think you would have A LOT...not limited success at your level.

BUFFALO....BUFFALO...SBU...BUFFALO....SBU...BUFFAL O....

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Not so much; on the AE boards there are like 5 fans.

You're being kind!

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

IMHO, UMass would join a "New Yankee" league if they had to.


Which is exactly why I said I don't invest UNH's football future on UMass (or URI). UMass doesn't want to be in a "New Yankee" and will be looking to go elsewhere. No offense, but that's not a good building block in a foundation if you know what I mean.

To an old timer like me (got a couple years on you 74 if that's your class as opposed to uniform number) UMass is the number one football rival of UNH. I'd really hate to see that end, but I just don't see UMass being content with AE Football. To me, you'd be just planning whatever it took to stay with Temple even if that meant going to the MAC or some other variation.

MJ thinks expenses are going to bring UMass and URI back to America East, but I've never seen any indication of that. Until I do, then my opinion remains that the all sports conference for UMass and URI will be determined by basketball regardless of cost to the olympic sports.

As long as Northeastern and Hofstra are all sports members of the CAA and UMass and URI are associate members in an AE Football Conference, then I don't see how AE Football gets off the ground. At least one that UNH would be happy with.

[DTSpider]

As a football fan I think App State is a great match with UD. However, Rozelle and his Ivy League adherents still have a lot of sway in Newark. Their arguments would be that that App State does not meet the academic "profile" of UD and so should not be scheduled.

William and Mary, JMU, and Richmond all fit in Rozelle's profile.

Based on my analysis App. State does not. No knock on App. This is just the way I see the current administration.

If you're talking about an all sports conference I wonder if W&M has changed its tune about Appy State. Rumor is the inclusion of schools such as Appy State into the Southern was a driving force for UR & W&M to leave.

As for the 1A move. I'd put JMU as the most likely. UD is up there, but they seem very content at 1AA. W&M is very doubtful. They were one of the first to move to 1AA and I haven't heard of any support to move back. Richmond was a very reluctant move to 1AA after being a 1A indepdendant, but everyone realizes that UR just can't draw the necessary crowds (i.e. 45,000 plus).

If I'm not mistaken, W&M and UR both flirted with the Patriot League for all sports back when Navy left the CAA, but wanted to keep scholarships.

[henfan]

IMO, any talk about current A-10 teams reclassifying is off the mark. In all likelihood, the terms 'I-A' and 'I-AA' will be relegated to history books long before a JMU or UMass or UDel or App State could ever lay the groundwork for a move to happen. It makes more sense to discuss how schools might be setting themselves up to join particular conferences, as part of all-sport affiliations. These football affiliate deals are becoming rarer as time goes by.

[colgate13]

If I'm not mistaken, W&M and UR both flirted with the Patriot League for all sports back when Navy left the CAA, but wanted to keep scholarships.

William & Mary was slated to be in the Colonial League but backed out over football scholarships. What a stupid move Colonial (now Patriot) schools!

[mainejeff]

Personally I'm not 100% sure that UMass would want to join AEC football. UMass has toyed with the idea of moving to I-A in the past, and I have a feeling that many in their administration and alumni community may view a move to the AEC as a step backwards. I would have to question whether their admin will see Albany and Stony Brook as a step up from Delaware and JMU, even when taking into account the geography and travel costs.

On the subject of the JMU/UD/W&M/App I-A thing... none of those schools are moving anywhere in the next few years. It's also extremely unlikely that W&M will ever move to I-A. Although if JMU and Delaware were to move to I-A, I think W&M would be put in the position of deciding whether to follow them to I-A or follow Richmond to the PL.

UMass to I-A is dead at this point. UMass has an established relationship with other AE schools (Maine, UNH, BU, Vermont) in hockey (Hockey East) which likely will also fall under the America East banner. I've also noticed many more non-conference games scheduled between UMass and URI and the AE schools in various Olympic Sports recently.......could be a sign of things to come.

[mainejeff]

But time moves on and schools and conferences have got to do what's in their own best interest.

That statement pretty much sums it up.

[mainejeff]

MJ thinks expenses are going to bring UMass and URI back to America East, but I've never seen any indication of that. Until I do, then my opinion remains that the all sports conference for UMass and URI will be determined by basketball regardless of cost to the olympic sports.

As long as Northeastern and Hofstra are all sports members of the CAA and UMass and URI are associate members in an AE Football Conference, then I don't see how AE Football gets off the ground. At least one that UNH would be happy with.

You're right, I do think that. The CAA can kill this whole thing with an invite to Albany and UNH for all sports. Come on Yeager......14 is only 2 more than 12.

[mainejeff]

IMO, any talk about current A-10 teams reclassifying is off the mark. In all likelihood, the terms 'I-A' and 'I-AA' will be relegated to history books long before a JMU or UMass or UDel or App State could ever lay the groundwork for a move to happen. It makes more sense to discuss how schools might be setting themselves up to join particular conferences, as part of all-sport affiliations. These football affiliate deals are becoming rarer as time goes by.

I agree with everything you said........:eek: :eek: :eek:

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Humor me. I'll even assume that more auto-bids become available and that UMass and URI choose to join AE for all sports. That would give AE six football playing members.


Without nine football members, scheduling is going to be more difficult than it currently is in the A-10/CAA. Isn't Maine already having problems with scheduling?
Where are the three additional football members going to come from? Sorry, but adding from Central CT, Wagner, Monmouth, Duquesne, etc. as they stand now doesn't come close to even treading water!
Doesn't the NCAA require conferences to have six teams together for five years in order to qualify for an autobid? Doesn't that mean playing five years without an auto-bid?


So, how is AE Football in the best interest of UNH, Maine, UMass and URI?? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: JMHO, Albany and Stony Brook aren't upgrading just to play in this type of AE Football league.

I'm trying to be open-minded, but nothing being presented so far makes me a proponent of AE Football. And I don't see anything that makes it even remotely viable. I need more than "blind faith" in Brother Nero to think a viable AE Football league is in the cards.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Where are the three additional football members going to come from? Sorry, but adding from Central CT, Wagner, Monmouth, Duquesne, etc. as they stand now doesn't come close to even treading water!
Doesn't the NCAA require conferences to have six teams together for five years in order to qualify for an autobid? Doesn't that mean playing five years without an auto-bid?



In my mind, I see CCSU, Monmouth, and either BU or Vermont possibly making returning to football. CCSU and Monmouth - no question - are ready for some sort of step up. That's a shot at 4 teams.

As for the requirement, I think that a new conference could apply for an exception for the autobid, no? After all, this new conference would have a former national champion (UMass), a current quarterfinalist (UNH) and a team that recently beat a I-A (Maine).

[*****]

...Doesn't the NCAA require conferences to have six teams together for five years in order to qualify for an autobid?...Two years together, six teams all of whom have been D-I for 8 years.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

In my mind, I see CCSU, Monmouth, and either BU or Vermont possibly making returning to football. CCSU and Monmouth - no question - are ready for some sort of step up. That's a shot at 4 teams.

As for the requirement, I think that a new conference could apply for an exception for the autobid, no? After all, this new conference would have a former national champion (UMass), a current quarterfinalist (UNH) and a team that recently beat a I-A (Maine).

LFN, I appreciate your enthusiasm and commitment, but you aren't doing a thing to sway my opinion. BU and/or UVM resurrecting football?? :eek: :eek: :eek: That is really grasping at straws!

If I'm the CEO at UNH, I'm looking for a heck of a lot more than "ready for some sort of step up" out of a CCSU and Monmouth. Yep, let's drop Delaware, Towson, JMU, W&M, Villanova and Richmond for the new kids from CCSU and Monmouth. : smh : : smh : : smh :

JMHO, but I think the competition with the A-10 South schools drives UNH to strive for excellence. And it provides the exposure to the fertile recruiting areas of NJ and PA. I don't see Monmouth or Wagner or Duquesne doing the same. Yes, they'd allow families to see games, but the HS football players know that those programs are not the same quality as the A-10 South schools. I just don't think UMass and Maine alone will allow UNH to maintain the same level of play. I'd prefer fewer playoff bids in the A-10 knowing that each one gave you a chance to truly complete rather than more frequent bids from AE but a usual one and done. :twocents:

It definitely isn't the type of football that will keep me donating $$$ and traveling on a Saturday day trip to Durham nor to road games.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Two years together, six teams all of whom have been D-I for 8 years.

Thanks Ralph. Two years is definitely better than waiting five years, but I still don't think UMass or UNH want a two year hiatus from an auto-bid. Can't believe Maine would either.

The key point is that there isn't any combo of schools that could join AE Football that would meet the criteria. Any AE Football scenario would be without an auto-bid for two years UNLESS somehow those schools joined AE two years before they started playing football, right? Or do they have to be playing football together for two years?

[ccd494]

Maine and UNH would be foolish to leave the CAA until forced to do so. If the CAA ever says "Leave" then it will be nice to have Albany and SBU to fall back on. But absolutely positively do not make a preemptive move to this effect. Albany and SBU aren't going to go anywhere more appealing, they will be there whenever Maine, UNH, UMass and URI come calling.

[*****]

Thanks Ralph. Two years is definitely better than waiting five years, but I still don't think UMass or UNH want a two year hiatus from an auto-bid. Can't believe Maine would either.

The key point is that there isn't any combo of schools that could join AE Football that would meet the criteria. Any AE Football scenario would be without an auto-bid for two years UNLESS somehow those schools joined AE two years before they started playing football, right? Or do they have to be playing football together for two years?Gotta play the sport together two years in conference. But if the CAA gets an exemption... not announced yet... why not the AE?

[DFW HOYA]

If they broke conference affiliation with Delaware they would very likely never play UD on the Maine Line again - any games would be in Newark (there is some precedent for this as even Penn has a very lopsided scheduling arrangement with nova that includes nova "home" games played at Penn's Franklin Field - Delaware would certainly play a similar hardball approach as UD loves home games). For a program that loses as much money as they do, voluntarily choosing to lose more while angering what fanbase they have with a move to the Patriot League doesn't seem like a likely move.

How does the PL cause Villanova to lose more money, outside of the loss of a I-A game now and then? Attendance probably doesn't change markedly, the cost of equivalencies is proportionately lower than full scholarships, and the general operating expenses are about the same or lower.

Any why wouldn't UD play a non-conference opponent on the road?

[Hansel]

How does the PL cause Villanova to lose more money, outside of the loss of a I-A game now and then? Attendance probably doesn't change markedly, the cost of equivalencies is proportionately lower than full scholarships, and the general operating expenses are about the same or lower.

Any why wouldn't UD play a non-conference opponent on the road?
UD rarely plays IAA non-con on the road

[mainejeff]

It definitely isn't the type of football that will keep me donating $$$ and traveling on a Saturday day trip to Durham nor to road games.

Are you referring to the Central Conn's and Monmouths........or the Maines, UMass's, and fully funded Albanys and Stony Brooks?

Sounds like you are really married to the idea of Delaware, JMU, and William & Mary as future conference mates. I wonder if they feel the same way? Or more importantly, I wonder if they can get UNCW, VCU, ODU and Geroge Mason to feel the same way?

[Husky Alum]

Gotta play the sport together two years in conference. But if the CAA gets an exemption... not announced yet... why not the AE?

Ralph, did the CAA really get an exemption?

The core members of the CAA were/will have been playing football together for more than 2 years in 2007 when the CAA takes over sponsorship. NU, UD, TU, HU, W&M, and JMU have all been in the A-10 since 2004. Granted it was under the A-10 sponsorship, but they've been playing in conference together for more than two. Yes, it was under a different banner, but is that semantics? The A-10 gave up football to the CAA, it wasn't like a new conference was formed and got an auto bid.

The CAA didn't get an exemption in order to OBTAIN a bid, the A-10 had the bid, and the CAA just assumed the sponsor's role for the football that the A-10 had.

The two situations are not analagous, IMHO.

Oh, and the NCAA would have to expand the tourney to get the AE an autobid, no?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Are you referring to the Central Conn's and Monmouths........or the Maines, UMass's, and fully funded Albanys and Stony Brooks?

Sounds like you are really married to the idea of Delaware, JMU, and William & Mary as future conference mates. I wonder if they feel the same way? Or more importantly, I wonder if they can get UNCW, VCU, ODU and Geroge Mason to feel the same way?

:doh: The Central Conn's and Monmouths!

And I believe I said that I don't think UNH and Maine can sustain the same level of team in a conference without the A-10 South, that playing just UMass, URI, ME/UNH, CCSU, Monmouth, Stony Brook, Albany, etc. won't provide an equivalent level of play. Frankly, I think SBU and Albany will do fine because they have in-state talent available that UNH and Maine just don't have. I won't speak for Maine, but UNH has always relied on many players from NY, NJ and PA. I just think the version of AE Football being presented will not continue to attract the same quality and quantity as the A-10 does.

I have no problem with Maine, UMass (which I've stated is IMO the #1 rival for UNH) or full funded SUNYs. I would prefer not to break up the core of Maine, UNH and fully funded Albany and Stony Brook. My problem is I don't see anyway you add enough quality to that core to make a viable conference (eight conference games) which can produce teams that have the ability to go beyond the first round of the playoffs. That's what we have today. Why would I want something that would be less than that just to have all sports under one banner?

As for Delaware, JMU and William & Mary. I'd be proud for UNH to be associated with all three in an all sports conference. Without rehashing stuff that I've written multiple times on these forums, I truly view Delaware as one of the most like-minded institutions to UNH. I'd like nothing better than UNH being "married" to them. At the same time I'm realistic and know that because the AE blew it when Delaware pushed them to sponsor football that the chances of remaining tied to Delaware are much less. The CAA controls things now, they have the numbers and again I just don't see the AE getting the numbers to support their smaller core! Unless the CAA implodes over football or get plundered (lose non-football schools) when the BE implosion occurs or JMU and W&M decide on a course of action that Delaware doesn't want, then I don't see how the quality we've been used to would logically align with the four AE football schools.

BTW, if I have to align my core of four AE Football schools with UMass, URI, CCSU, Monmouth, Wagner, Duquesne, etc. or align to Northeastern, Hofstra, Delaware, Towson, JMU and W&M, then that is a complete no-brainer to me. I pick the second group in a heartbeat. They are more like-minded institutions to UNH. Unfortunately, I don't think the group as a whole will get to make such a decision. And without an AE Football scenario of substantial quality put forward then I'd hope UNH does whatever is necessary to remain in the CAA Football league.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

To follow up Husky Alum, won't the transfer of the auto-bid from the A-10 to the CAA be a simple "hand-off" just like it was when the A-10 assumed administration of the Yankee Conference? Same league just being administered by a different conference.

[LeopardFan04]

That's what I assumed...isn't the change really just cosmetic...well plus the admins changing...

[mainejeff]

:doh: The Central Conn's and Monmouths!

And I believe I said that I don't think UNH and Maine can sustain the same level of team in a conference without the A-10 South, that playing just UMass, URI, ME/UNH, CCSU, Monmouth, Stony Brook, Albany, etc. won't provide an equivalent level of play. Frankly, I think SBU and Albany will do fine because they have in-state talent available that UNH and Maine just don't have. I won't speak for Maine, but UNH has always relied on many players from NY, NJ and PA. I just think the version of AE Football being presented will not continue to attract the same quality and quantity as the A-10 does.

I have no problem with Maine, UMass (which I've stated is IMO the #1 rival for UNH) or full funded SUNYs. I would prefer not to break up the core of Maine, UNH and fully funded Albany and Stony Brook. My problem is I don't see anyway you add enough quality to that core to make a viable conference (eight conference games) which can produce teams that have the ability to go beyond the first round of the playoffs. That's what we have today. Why would I want something that would be less than that just to have all sports under one banner?

As for Delaware, JMU and William & Mary. I'd be proud for UNH to be associated with all three in an all sports conference. Without rehashing stuff that I've written multiple times on these forums, I truly view Delaware as one of the most like-minded institutions to UNH. I'd like nothing better than UNH being "married" to them. At the same time I'm realistic and know that because the AE blew it when Delaware pushed them to sponsor football that the chances of remaining tied to Delaware are much less. The CAA controls things now, they have the numbers and again I just don't see the AE getting the numbers to support their smaller core! Unless the CAA implodes over football or get plundered (lose non-football schools) when the BE implosion occurs or JMU and W&M decide on a course of action that Delaware doesn't want, then I don't see how the quality we've been used to would logically align with the four AE football schools.

BTW, if I have to align my core of four AE Football schools with UMass, URI, CCSU, Monmouth, Wagner, Duquesne, etc. or align to Northeastern, Hofstra, Delaware, Towson, JMU and W&M, then that is a complete no-brainer to me. I pick the second group in a heartbeat. They are more like-minded institutions to UNH. Unfortunately, I don't think the group as a whole will get to make such a decision. And without an AE Football scenario of substantial quality put forward then I'd hope UNH does whatever is necessary to remain in the CAA Football league.


Where do I start.............

1. I'm not sure I get your recruiting angle. I don't believe that Maine or UNH signs the players that they do simply because they play Delaware, JMU, and William & Mary. Do you believe that Santos and Ball would not have signed if those schools were not on UNH's schedule? I believe that the autobid is the most important aspect because it allows every school in the league a chance to play in the NCAAs and a shot at winning a National Championship.

2. What does recruiting NY, NJ and PA have to do with Delaware, JMU and William & Mary?

3. How did CCSU, Monmouth, Duquesne and Wagner get dragged into this? I've never thought for one minute that any of these schools are part of the equation for football.

[henfan]

I'll echo what's already been said by Husky Alum, UNH Alum and Leopard Fan re the CAA auto-bid. The CAA will be assuming complete administration of the A-10 Football League as of Sept. 2007 and the automatic bid will transfer to the CAA as well. The CAA did not have to apply for any sort of exemption.


The current divisional alignment (based on geography) will remain the same. The scheduling rotation will continue. Conference records will convey just as they did when the Atlantic 10 took over the Yankee Conference in 1997. The automatic bid to the NCAA Championship will transfer.

http://www.caasports.com/sports/news/release.asp?RELEASE_ID=2306

Ralph was correct in stating that six core institutions must be competiting together for two consecutive years before they are eligible to receive an auto-bid. (see Division I By-law 31.3.4.2) A conference could apply for a waiver but would be hard-pressed to demonstrate why an exception should be granted. The by-law is fairly clear.

Given the hypothetical scenario with the AEC, if UMaine and UNH can persuade CAA football affiliates UMass, URI, Villanova and UR to sign as affiliates of the AEC league, they would be eligible to apply for an auto-bid immediately. To put it into perspective, if just one of those affiliates decided not to switch leagues, the AEC would have to wait two years before it would be eligible to receive an auto-bid. Assuming they joined the league at formation, Stony Brook and Albany would be eligible for the conference auto-bid as soon as it is granted by the NCAA. In all likelihood, the AEC would be facing a two year waiting period and, given the limited number of current at-large bids available, there's no guarantee a bid would be granted.

[Go...gate]

PL is going to remain as is for the foreseeable future. We had a shot at a Richmond affiliation, but Richmond's decision was the right one based on the desires of its students and alumni.

The Villanova talk is hollow. Villanova flat-out does not want the Patriot League, though they may get caught in a regional squeeze if there is a CAA split and a creation of what amounts to a new Yankee Conference comprised of URI, UMass, Maine, UNH, Stony Brook, Albany, Hofstra and perhaps Boston University (the latter with or without football) In such circumstances, Villanova will either become something of a "northern" CAA football school, a I-AA Independent, or a highly reluctant PL member.

IMO, the next PL member will be all-sports in nature, possibly VMI or a Division III member stepping up such as RPI, Rochester, Gettysburg or Johns Hopkins.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A conference could apply for a waiver but would be hard-pressed to demonstrate why an exception should be granted. The by-law is fairly clear.

I've seen this bandied about, but I'm hard pressed to see why an AEC would be "hard-pressed" to have an exception.

Take a completely hypothetical example. Georgia Southern, Furman, Elon, Wofford, Coastal Carolina and South Carolina St. form their own conference. Have they played together as a conference for 2 years? No. Have most of them? Yes. have they proven that they belong in the highest level of I-AA competition? Without question. So why should they be penalized?

If you're going to keep this bylaw to the letter of the law, you'd better prepare for 16-team conferences, since nobody will ever want to lose an autobid, and there's no incentive for anyone playoff conferences to jump to new conferences. You'd basically be capping the size of I-AA.


The Villanova talk is hollow. Villanova flat-out does not want the Patriot League, though they may get caught in a regional squeeze if there is a CAA split and a creation of what amounts to a new Yankee Conference comprised of URI, UMass, Maine, UNH, Stony Brook, Albany, Hofstra and perhaps Boston University (the latter with or without football) In such circumstances, Villanova will either become something of a "northern" CAA football school, a I-AA Independent, or a highly reluctant PL member.

I basically agree with this, and I also agree that Villanova is basically looking at options "just in case" they need to make a move, not that they would actively look to make a move. Villanova is a really strange bird that doesn't really fit in anywhere - not even, really, the CAA. All they've got is that strange rivalry with Delaware - and with nobody else in a new AEC, CAA, or PL.


How did CCSU, Monmouth, Duquesne and Wagner get dragged into this? I've never thought for one minute that any of these schools are part of the equation for football.

Wagner is definitely getting dragged into this, as they've shown no interest or inclination at being anything aside a middling NEC school. Duquesne is in the MAAC and may be looking to upgrade, but IMO they are a much more likely candidate to join the Gateway (developing a rivalry with YSU every year) than the AEC (playing.. who?... as a rival each year... Stony Brook?).

But Monmouth and CCSU are clearly different. They have announced nothing (nor, BTW, has Albany), but it's clear that these guys have big plans for football in the future. Monmouth and CCSU have been doing a great job in keeping in-state talent for starters, and Monmouth has a bunch of I-A transfers on the roster. If Monmouth became I-AA independent next, I would not be surprised in the slightest.

If interested in pursuing the full number of scholarships, I have little doubt that these NEC schools that are getting maligned here can easily talk of I-AA playoffs once they're ramped up. Don't think of CCSU, SB, Albany and Monmouth as how they are now (although, they're not bad, either). Think of them with a full complement of schollies with depth and talent in all positions. They will be competitive with UMass, UNH, Maine. Trust me.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Where do I start.............

1. I'm not sure I get your recruiting angle. I don't believe that Maine or UNH signs the players that they do simply because they play Delaware, JMU, and William & Mary. Do you believe that Santos and Ball would not have signed if those schools were not on UNH's schedule? I believe that the autobid is the most important aspect because it allows every school in the league a chance to play in the NCAAs and a shot at winning a National Championship.

I believe that playing Delaware, JMU, W&M, Towson, Villanova, Hofstra and Richmond helps UNH's cause significantly:


Makes players in NJ, PA and NY much more aware of UNH and that they play a high quality of football. IMO, that's priceless exposure.
Provides the high level of competition that is used as a major selling point for UNH helping to offset poor facilities and a northern location.
Provides great opportunities for friends and families to watch a UNH game with a much shorter trip from their homes. I have heard multiple parents state how much they like the games at these schools. IMO, that helps recruiting. Sure makes it a lot easier for Mom to send her son off far from home.
For every Santos and Ball, there are many, many, many more players from PA, NJ and NY that are the guts of the team. My opinion is that fewer of these kids would come to UNH.
As I stated before, I doubt the quality level of this new AE league would allow us to REALLY compete for the national championship. It would have an autobid, but also one and dones. Getting the CAA is more challenging, but when you do win that bid then you truly will have the opportunity to compete for the title.



2. What does recruiting NY, NJ and PA have to do with Delaware, JMU and William & Mary?

See above.


3. How did CCSU, Monmouth, Duquesne and Wagner get dragged into this? I've never thought for one minute that any of these schools are part of the equation for football.

You keep saying there will be more than six teams. Where else are they going to come from? Northeastern and Hofstra aren't logical candidates because they're full members of the CAA. Unless you know something you're not posting, I sure don't see how AE gets them to break that bond. And frankly, I can think of multiple other scenarios that UMass and URI would choose before AE Football. And I certainly don't see them joining AE as all sports members. On that we'll agree to disagree. Same with Hofstra and Northeastern. The post BE-implosion A-10 could decide to re-start football, entice Fordham to play, offer NU and HU full membership, talk some sense into Temple, keep Richmond on board, etc. IMHO, UMass, URI, NU and HU would do that in a heartbeat before joining AE Football.

JMHO, but even if UMass and URI joined AE Football, having only six teams with two of them as associates is extremely dangerous. All it would take is for one of them to bolt or downgrade and we'd be up the creek without a paddle! No way I'd ever expect UNH to drop out of the CAA for such a risky scenario!

Just think about scheduling with a six team AE! Five good games and then an OOC slate to fill. UNH would have Dartmouth and Northeastern most likely on an annual basis for seven games. Hofstra having fully funded programs at Albany and Stony Brook IMO isn't going to be looking toward UNH and Maine for OOC games. If the talent level slips, then the I-A games are less feasible. Towson might be willing to do a home and home, but they'll have a lot more options for bus games. Delaware would probably invite UNH to come to Newark once in a while. At best we could probably hope to start a series with one PL team, two at best. Doubtful, the Ivies would be open to any other games unless they add an 11th game. Scheduling would be a nightmare! Without getting on a plane, CCSU, Wagner, Iona, Monmouth and company will be back filling our schedules.

Like I said before, I'm trying to be open minded, but nobody is posting anything that I can logically see as even being comparable to today's world.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just think about scheduling with a six team AE! Five good games and then an OOC slate to fill. UNH would have Dartmouth and Northeastern most likely on an annual basis for seven games. Hofstra having fully funded programs at Albany and Stony Brook IMO isn't going to be looking toward UNH and Maine for OOC games. If the talent level slips, then the I-A games are less feasible. Towson might be willing to do a home and home, but they'll have a lot more options for bus games. Delaware would probably invite UNH to come to Newark once in a while. At best we could probably hope to start a series with one PL team, two at best. Doubtful, the Ivies would be open to any other games unless they add an 11th game. Scheduling would be a nightmare! Without getting on a plane, CCSU, Wagner, Iona, Monmouth and company will be back filling our schedules.

Whoa cowboy. Holy Cross, Fordham and Holy Cross, and I'm sure Lehigh and Lafayette will also be an option for OOC games that are not a flight. Or do you have a problem with scheduling the PL?

And, did I hear you correctly, or are you implicitly saying that filling OOC games is just soooo much better with the CAA, hmm? :eyebrow:

[blukeys]

Are you referring to the Central Conn's and Monmouths........or the Maines, UMass's, and fully funded Albanys and Stony Brooks?

Sounds like you are really married to the idea of Delaware, JMU, and William & Mary as future conference mates. I wonder if they feel the same way? Or more importantly, I wonder if they can get UNCW, VCU, ODU and Geroge Mason to feel the same way?

Personally I would love to see UNH in an all sports conference and I think Delaware would like it as well but Your point about the basketball schools is well taken. Would the basketball schools want to diminish their influence by letting in another football oriented school? This seems to be the problem in all of these conferences whether it is the CAA or America East. In fact that is how we got to the stage we are in right now.

[Dane96]

For the record, Monmouth was not very happy with the ramp up in scholarships. The coach's were, the admins were not, though in the end they voted on the move.

The move, in fact, was to appease UA and SBU and keep them from leaving...plain and simple. It was those two schools who had pressed the issue. Dont just presume the board at Monmouth will be up for a 63 scholarship proposition.

It may not even be CLOSE to a done deal.

[Bub]

For the record, Monmouth was not very happy with the ramp up in scholarships. The coach's were, the admins were not, though in the end they voted on the move.

The move, in fact, was to appease UA and SBU and keep them from leaving...plain and simple. It was those two schools who had pressed the issue. Dont just presume the board at Monmouth will be up for a 63 scholarship proposition.

It may not even be CLOSE to a done deal.

Sounds like the appeasments to UA & SBU weren't enough to keep them from leaving.

[aceinthehole]

Wagner is definitely getting dragged into this, as they've shown no interest or inclination at being anything aside a middling NEC school. Duquesne is in the MAAC and may be looking to upgrade, but IMO they are a much more likely candidate to join the Gateway (developing a rivalry with YSU every year) than the AEC (playing.. who?... as a rival each year... Stony Brook?).

But Monmouth and CCSU are clearly different. They have announced nothing (nor, BTW, has Albany), but it's clear that these guys have big plans for football in the future. Monmouth and CCSU have been doing a great job in keeping in-state talent for starters, and Monmouth has a bunch of I-A transfers on the roster. If Monmouth became I-AA independent next, I would not be surprised in the slightest.

If interested in pursuing the full number of scholarships, I have little doubt that these NEC schools that are getting maligned here can easily talk of I-AA playoffs once they're ramped up. Don't think of CCSU, SB, Albany and Monmouth as how they are now (although, they're not bad, either). Think of them with a full complement of schollies with depth and talent in all positions. They will be competitive with UMass, UNH, Maine. Trust me.

Thanks LFN.

First, IF and when CCSU was on the table for inclusion in AE football, you must compare them as a fullly funded I-AA program. Of course CCSU would have to provide the full allotmet of schollys, just as SBU has proposed. Remember this is not a proposal to add the current limited-aid program that CCSU or Albany has on the field now.

Also, although current success is no indicator of future results - CCSU is 2 time defending NEC co-champs. They've beat Albany 2 in a row, beat Monmouth 3 out of the last 4 years, and have the NEC's most impressive win to date - at Colgate. They bring as much to the table as SBU, UA,or Monmouth, IF they upgraded!

I agree with UNH and Maine fans, the AE football as proposed is not as good for their schools as the current A-10/CAA, but it is a solid back-up plan, if needed.

[Dane96]

Look...we have all beaten it to death numerous times, however when all is said and done in 5 years, I think you will see all-sport affiliations. The landscape is going to change dramatically.

From that firestorm will be the formation of basketball-centric conferences and football based IAA leagues. You can bank on it.

While UA and SBU would be the last choices in, I really beleive you will see the southern football schools unite, the northern schools unite...and two to three seperate leagues forming.

People, with less support at most state insitutions and schools regularly being stretched thin (both public and private) to support an increasing number of college bound students, money will be tight and travel expenses will play a part of the equation. It may not be today, one year, two years out, but it will be influential in the near future.

I really think you will see a league featuring a mix of the old yankee, etc. for a northern league and I believe the AE as we know it may not exist.

NORTH
UMASS
SBU
ALBANY
NU
UNH
MAINE

SOUTH
JMU
ODU
HOFSTRA
UD
TOWSON
W&M

will end up being an all-sports league.




UMASS...who knows...but I think they will eventually take a crack at IA...though not for a few years. In my eyes, it will be 70-30 of it happening.

I do not see GSU and GMU moving up. I honestly dont think CCSU will move in that direction, yet. I do not forsee 'Nova in this league, they will either be Patriot, succumb to pressure to move up to IA or honestly, I hate to say it, drop football. YOU NEVER KNOW.

I think Richmond will end up in a PL league which will feature some large allotment of scholarships. I think you MAY...may see Monmouth in this type of league....RPI as well. I think RPI sees the success of UA and wants it in TROY...though I dont think they will have quite the fan support as Siena and Albany.

Just my two cents!!

[Ruler 79]

To Aceinthehole,

I hope CCSU steps up in class, it appears they may be needed. You don't need to continue to point out CCSU as being "as good" as UA and Monmouth. No one here is trying to short change CCSU. You are beating a tired scenario into the ground on CCSU's recent (2 years)success. Yes, they have won A SHARE of the NEC over the last two years and SBU won a share ONCE! UA and Monmouth have also won the NEC twice and typically are year in and year out the best in the NEC.

In 2002 UA won it outright as wll as the ECAC Bowl and 2003 they shared it with Monmouth. In 2003 Monmouth shared it with UA and 2004 shared it with CCSU! Relax, no one is taking anything away from CCSU. You have had 2 good teams since the 80's. You have beaten UA 3 times out of like 11 games played.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Whoa cowboy. Holy Cross, Fordham and Holy Cross, and I'm sure Lehigh and Lafayette will also be an option for OOC games that are not a flight. Or do you have a problem with scheduling the PL?

And, did I hear you correctly, or are you implicitly saying that filling OOC games is just soooo much better with the CAA, hmm? :eyebrow:

1. I don't have any problem with scheduling the PL. Frankly, I wish there had been more of it over the years because they are quality OOC games that are also bus games. But it just hasn't happened and I don't know why. So, my comment is based on assuming that would practice would continue. And with the PL's agreement with the Ivy that you won't be looking for enough OOC games to fill all the needs of the AE schools.

2. No, OOC games aren't necessarily easier to schedule when in the CAA. If you read my post carefully, I think you'll see that my point was about the number of OOC games that needed to be scheduled. Filling six OOC games in a six team AE is significantly more difficult than filling three OOC games in a twelve team CAA with eight league games. Especially, in the revised world created by creation of AE Football.

3. Until CCSU, Monmouth, Duquesne or anybody else publicizes upgrade steps like Stony Brook and Albany have, I will not assume they are fully funded options for the future. Therefore, I don't view them as equals. Same thing with programs being resurrected by BU, UVM or anybody else. Sorry, while not from Missouri, I do believe in that old "Show Me" idea.

[henfan]

I've seen this bandied about, but I'm hard pressed to see why an AEC would be "hard-pressed" to have an exception.

Take a completely hypothetical example. Georgia Southern, Furman, Elon, Wofford, Coastal Carolina and South Carolina St. form their own conference. Have they played together as a conference for 2 years? No. Have most of them? Yes. have they proven that they belong in the highest level of I-AA competition? Without question. So why should they be penalized?

LFN, the intention of the 2 year waiting period in the by-law isn't to penalize conferences. As far as I can see, it exists to provide some sense of stability in D-I and prevent conference hopping. By the lack of new I-AA conferences that have formed in recent years and the lack of those applying for autobid waivers, I'd say that the rule has been a good thing by and large.

A fledgling conference has to either satisfy the by-law or apply for an exception. They are the two options that the America East would face. Though they could use certainly use competitiveness and history as part of their exception argument, neither are part of the by-law criteria. That is why I characterized it as a potential 'hard-pressed' case.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Look...we have all beaten it to death numerous times, however when all is said and done in 5 years, I think you will see all-sport affiliations. The landscape is going to change dramatically.

From that firestorm will be the formation of basketball-centric conferences and football based IAA leagues. You can bank on it.

.................. (Didn't want to "waste" broadband and storage quoting the entire post!)

Just my two cents!!

While there are a myriad of sceanarios that could be spun off your proposal, something of this ilk is the solution that I prefer. To me, rather than spending energy on AE Football, I think every effort possible has to be made on these types of associations first. :twocents:

[mainejeff]

NORTH
UMASS
SBU
ALBANY
NU
UNH
MAINE

SOUTH
JMU
ODU
HOFSTRA
UD
TOWSON
W&M

will end up being an all-sports league.

Just my two cents!!

Interesting.........

[*****]

Ralph, did the CAA really get an exemption?...Haven't seen the NCAA pr announcing that it did. That's what I meant.

[aceinthehole]

To Aceinthehole,

I hope CCSU steps up in class, it appears they may be needed. You don't need to continue to point out CCSU as being "as good" as UA and Monmouth. No one here is trying to short change CCSU. You are beating a tired scenario into the ground on CCSU's recent (2 years)success. Yes, they have won A SHARE of the NEC over the last two years and SBU won a share ONCE! UA and Monmouth have also won the NEC twice and typically are year in and year out the best in the NEC.

In 2002 UA won it outright as wll as the ECAC Bowl and 2003 they shared it with Monmouth. In 2003 Monmouth shared it with UA and 2004 shared it with CCSU! Relax, no one is taking anything away from CCSU. You have had 2 good teams since the 80's. You have beaten UA 3 times out of like 11 games played.

OK Ruler. I didn't mean to come off as saying CCSU was the team to beat, I was simply reminding some readers of the facts, since they might not follow the NEC as closely as we do. :)

Also, I was responding to some previous comments like, "who's talking about adding CCSU, Duq, or Wagner to AE football." I was making the general point that the top 4 teams in the NEC - UA, CCSU, Mon, and SBU - are all about equal. There is no reason to think CCSU is not a viable option for the future AE football. They are public, have the perfect geography, and an improving academic profile. There is no reason they should be excluded in future options. Future funding and investments are the only real question mark in New Britain.

Second, I always said, beacsue of Albany the NEC (and its teams) have gotten much better. The Danes raised the bar and the expectations for everyone. The SBU AD is just crazy, but he is certainly trying to move ahead of UA in the SUNY race for superiority. I no longer doubt if UA will step up, the question still remains when. As of now SBU, UA and CCSU have the same amount of schollys, just SBU has OFFICIALLY announced their plans.

My only other point, is besides the current AE affiliation, what is the real difference if UNH and Maine replaces some current A-10 members with SBU and UA, or CCSU? None. All 3 teams would require some time to ramp up and get competative. We are all a step down to JMU, Delaware and W&M.

Do you really think UMass or URI makes a big distinction between UA and CCSU? The answer is no - we are both a big step down from a UMass football rivalry with Delaware! We are both "buy" games for their basketball teams! We are in the same boat, yet somehow some crazy Albany fans are ready for CAA membership? Why? What have you done? (This is my biggest problem when discussing UA athletics)

I'm not trying to put UA down - I think its a great schools and know some Alumni. I'm just saying that becasue you may have more posters on some of these boards than SBU or CCSU, Albany is no way a prime expansion target of the CAA. Sorry if that offended you or any UA fans.

[Dane96]

Ace....come on...this is where I turn on you.

What's the difference. Number :


1. Academic Profile: Two completely seperate missions of CCSU and UA. This cannot be even argued. You may have close GPA's etc. (which I believe you dont) but the programs and facilities (the NANOTECH VALLEY IS BEING HEADQUARTERED AT UA...the future expected to be much like Silicon Valley was in the 90's).


2. Besides baseball, hoop, and football (soccer?!), UA has more potential and done more in such a short time it is scary. CCSU has had years to move up and onward. IMHO they have failed to do so for some very good reasons (the tenuous situation b/w the adept and school a few years back to name one). UA, on the other hand just finished Phase 1 of a nearly 150mm athletic facility upgrade.

We have unreal teams in Lax, Volleyball, Track and Field, Cross-Country, and softball. The Men's soccer program is steadily becoming one of the best in the league (granted, I think the NEC may have some better teams), baseball made some strides (not like CCSU), the new woman's soccer coach is fantastic (I worked with her in Boston) and she should build that program up quick. I could go on and on on what UA has done with only 7 years of DI and 5 years of conference affiliation under our belts.

The difference: UA HAS/IS SPENDING THE $$$$

So, what makes us attractive, possibly to the CAA is a med-large state school, in an area with over a million people, with a national reputation on the undergraduate, graduate, and doctoral levels, a school who receives notice because it is in the state capital. It also gets a REGULARLY improving, and rapidly I might add, athletic program.

That....is what we would offer, in oh...three years if it came to fruition.

If you think UA is not like-minded with the other CAA schools...you are blinding yourself.

Check your pm.

[colgate13]

(the NANOTECH VALLEY IS BEING HEADQUARTERED AT UA...the future expected to be much like Silicon Valley was in the 90's).

You're believing that propoganda???????? And Syracuse is supposed to be the center of all things cutting edge and environmental. Yea, with our taxes! Businesses would be silly to make long term investments in our state. : smh :

Oh well - off topic.

Back on topic, I do see a big upside to Albany. You are a university on the move, as they say.

[Dane96]

You're believing that propoganda???????? And Syracuse is supposed to be the center of all things cutting edge and environmental. Yea, with our taxes! Businesses would be silly to make long term investments in our state. : smh :

Oh well - off topic.

Back on topic, I do see a big upside to Albany. You are a university on the move, as they say.

Ummm...sorry 13...not propaganda...two new buildings housing the Nanotech facilities, commits from over 50 corporations, state, federal, and intl. funding, more buildings on the way, the first NANOTECH graduate program in the world, coordination with MIT, Stanford, RPI, Caltech, etc.


Here is some of it...but there is plenty of other non-UA propaganda articles and websites featuring the centering of the Nanotech in Albany, stretching S. to poughkippsee eventually...north I forgot where.


http://cnse.albany.edu/

http://www.albanynanotech.org/


http://www.albanynanotech.org/About/partners.cfm

Wouldn't exactly call that list, which first began in 2004 before the buildings were near completed or even started, a chump list.

This is spurred by the state...in conjunction with UA. They are following the incubator models of the major research science schools (MIT, RPI, etc.) Give space to companies...give talented students oppty to research...etc.

Not to argue, but it is part of fact....very public fact.

And this is a list of people growth at NANOTECH (not including the businesses who have sent their own people):

Growth at Albany NanoTech

Growth in Personnel at Albany NanoTech Complex

During the last three years and over the next three years the number of researchers, support staff and academic participants has been growing dramatically.

Time frame On Site Personnel
July 2002 108
July 2003 160
July 2004 500
July 2007 - projected 1600

[Husky Alum]

Funny you mention nanotech D96. NU is spending a TON of money on Nanotech and last year got some obscure certification that only MIT, Berkely, Harvard and CalTech had which allows it to get an obscene amount of federal research grants.

That being said, D96's conference smells an awful lot like what the AE rejected in 2000-01. The more things change, the more things stay the same!

[Dane96]

I forget the name of the certification you talk about, but just to clarify (not one-upping) UA was the first school in the country to receive the certification and clearance to start work with countries overseas. I vaguely remember reading UA and NU were partnering on some new thing...some joint state thing b/w Pataki and Romney (they pushed it).

I believe NU is partering, with, drumroll...UNH....UMASS (athletic partners) and Michigan State on wafer manufacturing.

Yes...I agree...that conference does smell like the old proposal but I think the landscape has changed SO MUCH that all-sports recognition and travel are much bigger parts of the equation allowing for such a conference.

I, for one, would think it could be a great IAA conference and a VERY, VERY GOOD MID-MAJOR CONFERENCE...easily growing in leaps and bounds.

LOL......SO I AGREE WITH YOU!!!!

:)

[henfan]

Yes...I agree...that conference does smell like the old proposal but I think the landscape has changed SO MUCH that all-sports recognition and travel are much bigger parts of the equation allowing for such a conference.

I, for one, would think it could be a great IAA conference and a VERY, VERY GOOD MID-MAJOR CONFERENCE...easily growing in leaps and bounds.

Don't disagree with that one, Dane, as it makes complete sense. However (you knew that was coming)...

It's hard to reconcile what would happen to D-I schools who don't sponsor football. I just don't see any overwhelming desire either in the CAA or AEC for I-AAA schools to leave on their own or have them forced out for affiliations elsewhere. Maybe those opportunities will develop but there's an equally good chance they won't. There's just too many variables to seriously consider this scenario, unfortunately.

IMO, the best and maybe only chance for this type of alliance to have happened passed us by in Fall 2000. Hope I'm wrong about that.

AMERICA EAST EXPANSION PLAN:
http://www.uvm.edu/~tpatters/athletics/confexpand_files/frame.htm

Speaking of nanotech, that's a potential industry with which the State of Delaware, through an affiliation with the UD and DuPont, hopes to become affiliated:
http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051211/NEWS/512110338/1006

[colgate13]

Ummm...sorry 13...not propaganda...
Not to argue, but it is part of fact....very public fact.
The propoganda is not that money is being spent or that effort is being made. I'm not putting that down. The propoganda is in the bolded part of my quote:


the future expected to be much like Silicon Valley was in the 90's
I'm not banking on Albany being like Silicon Valley anytime soon. Competition for nanotech will probably be fierce as henfan points out. With NYS's setup in terms of taxes, general climate and higher cost of living, I don't think in the long run we'll win this one. There is a reason why banks go to Delaware or South Dakota, car manufacturers go South, airplanes go to the pacific northwest, etc. Looking at the status of NY, especially upstate, businesses are leaving this area. :twocents:

[blukeys]

Looking at the status of NY, especially upstate, businesses are leaving this area. :twocents:

I worked in Economic Development and the situation was worse when Cuomo was governor. Still New York has never been a factor in business relocations and like California was and is fertile territory for recruitment of businesses wanting to move. :nod:

[JoltinJoe]

The propoganda is not that money is being spent or that effort is being made. I'm not putting that down. The propoganda is in the bolded part of my quote:


I'm not banking on Albany being like Silicon Valley anytime soon. Competition for nanotech will probably be fierce as henfan points out. With NYS's setup in terms of taxes, general climate and higher cost of living, I don't think in the long run we'll win this one. There is a reason why banks go to Delaware or South Dakota, car manufacturers go South, airplanes go to the pacific northwest, etc. Looking at the status of NY, especially upstate, businesses are leaving this area. :twocents:

If you guys want real change in the way Albany does things, vote for Tom Suozzi for governor in the Democratic primary.

New York Times: A Dazzling Upstart (http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F30811F6345A0C758EDDAB0894DE4044 82)

[Dane96]

The propoganda is not that money is being spent or that effort is being made. I'm not putting that down. The propoganda is in the bolded part of my quote:


I'm not banking on Albany being like Silicon Valley anytime soon. Competition for nanotech will probably be fierce as henfan points out. With NYS's setup in terms of taxes, general climate and higher cost of living, I don't think in the long run we'll win this one. There is a reason why banks go to Delaware or South Dakota, car manufacturers go South, airplanes go to the pacific northwest, etc. Looking at the status of NY, especially upstate, businesses are leaving this area. :twocents:

Actually, as Joe can point out as well, the reason banks, cc companies, etc. go to DE is because of the history of business law and the lone state that has a court specifically dealing with corporate law. For years states like Wyoming, Nevada, Hawaii, S. Dakota, etc. have tried to combat this, however recent changes in corporate law (MASS was the first state to enact new corporate legislation with its 156D regs) and regular meetings between state administrators to streamline corporate law, DE has still stayed the playground of banks, corps, and lenders.

It has less to do with taxes than it does the busines entity law.

As for cost of living...you must be kidding. While still more than most states, living in ALBANY and making 65k is like making 145k in Long Island. I have done both. Do you realize you can buy an apt in the student ghetto of Albany (right off of downtown) for 65k-100k, fix it and rent that sucker for 900-1400 bucks a month for a two to three bed.

By the campus, you can buy a three to four bed ranch for under 300k...and the campus technically is in Mcknownville (part of it is) and not Albany.

It is still a bargain...and remember, UA gives a 1billion...yes 1 billion dollar financial boost to the local economy. That is projected to rise with tax breaks being offered by the state via legislative enactments and gubentorial (sp?) acts allowing business' to reinvest in themselves in the corridor we speak of.

Yes, the climate may be bad elsewhere, but Nanotech is the legislature's baby, receiving a commitment from both sides of the aisle.

I worked on the basics of this before I even went to law school and worked in the NYS legislature. This has been planned for a long...long time and the state hopes to rejuvinate the Hudson Valley.

[colgate13]

Actually, as Joe can point out as well, the reason banks, cc companies, etc. go to DE is because of the history of business law and the lone state that has a court specifically dealing with corporate law. For years states like Wyoming, Nevada, Hawaii, S. Dakota, etc. have tried to combat this, however recent changes in corporate law (MASS was the first state to enact new corporate legislation with its 156D regs) and regular meetings between state administrators to streamline corporate law, DE has still stayed the playground of banks, corps, and lenders.
Right. There are reasons certain industries go to certain areas. I gave an example. I think when it all shakes out nanotech won't be going to Albany. Another instance that comes to mind is a company like Amazon.com. They could be anywhere. They are in Kentucky for a reason. I wish I had a source to show this, but my understanding is that new businesses are NOT coming to NY state.


As for cost of living...you must be kidding. While still more than most states, living in ALBANY and making 65k is like making 145k in Long Island. I have done both. Do you realize you can buy an apt in the student ghetto of Albany (right off of downtown) for 65k-100k, fix it and rent that sucker for 900-1400 bucks a month for a two to three bed.

By the campus, you can buy a three to four bed ranch for under 300k...and the campus technically is in Mcknownville (part of it is) and not Albany.

It is still a bargain...

Ah, so you are one of those brainwashed New Yorkers! Comparing cost of living doesn't meaning comparing Albany to NYC or Long Island. It means comparing Albany against Montgomery, Alabama or Tuscon, Arizona or Portland, Oregon. What are your state taxes like in Albany? Your sales tax? Your property taxes? FRICKIN' HIGH! Your housing prices are still, by comparison, high!

And instead of making up numbers, a place like salary.nytimes.com has a calculator to use. Making $65K in Albany is like $75K in NYC, much less Long Island.

As for quality of life, the fact you just used the word ghetto to describe some housing is exactly what I'm talking about. Are there any ghettos of Silicon Valley?

It's not a bargain. You just don't know that there could be something better.


and remember, UA gives a 1billion...yes 1 billion dollar financial boost to the local economy. That is projected to rise with tax breaks being offered by the state via legislative enactments and gubentorial (sp?) acts allowing business' to reinvest in themselves in the corridor we speak of.

Yes, the climate may be bad elsewhere, but Nanotech is the legislature's baby, receiving a commitment from both sides of the aisle.
Tax breaks, tax breaks, tax breaks... they have to be made up somewhere with our spending. So the business gets a tax break. Great. The state collects less tax revenue, so they cover less of the cost of Medicaid. Medicaid must be covered, so it goes to the counties. The counties are strapped, so they raise your sales tax. Or maybe it's school funding, so they raise your property tax. There is simply no good reason why NYS property tax is as high as it is, yet it keeps going up 6%, 10%, etc. every year. That's where I would want to put my new company! Yea - and let me pay for the legacy costs of our outrageous NYS teachers pension! Woo-Hoo!


I worked on the basics of this before I even went to law school and worked in the NYS legislature. This has been planned for a long...long time and the state hopes to rejuvinate the Hudson Valley.
Hoping and wishing are fine. The state has hoped for a lot of things BTW... That's my problem. You're buying hook, line and sinker into the idea that because Albany says so and tries to throw money at or give tax breaks, it will become the next Silicon Valley. Sorry. I don't buy it. The climate of New York State is piss poor for business.: smh :

[Dane96]

13...check your PM so we can spare this board a business reading.

[colgate13]

Done. Back on topic:

I think Stony Brook is making a great move here and will be at a whole different level of football in 10 years. IMO, this is much akin to a school like CCU starting football from scratch and getting competitive fairly quickly (even though SB has been playing for a while).

If Albany does as those say here too (and CCSU), that is IMO 3 new and healthy programs on the horizon for the Northeast. VERY good for I-AA.

[Ruler 79]

No way in the world does it take 10 years for UA and SBU to be a "player" in IAA. At most it will take 4 years for these programs to be ramped up to 50-60 rides and be competitive. Now, will they knock of Delaware or Montana?...probably not but the scores will be close and from time to time they will upend an established program. That basically makes them A-10 level programs.

As it is now UA, CCSU, and Monmouth are mid tier PL teams(I know PL posters hate this but it is true). They have beaten mid tier to low end PL teams consistentlly for over 3 or 4 years.These programs trail only Colgate, Lehigh, and Lafayette with only AID BASED NEED...soon to be 8-10 scholarships. Are these 3 PL teams I mention better then last year? If not maybe they trail only Colgate (think CCSU is a fluke or not it happened).

When Monmouth and UA play Fordham this season they fully expect to win. In fact both Monmouth and UA think the Fordham game will be easier then playing each other(No disrespect meant towards Fordham) Lehigh will probably beat Albany and I gaurantee Albany knocks off Delaware at Delaware..LOLOOLOLOLOL....just making sure you are all listening. Delaware crushes UA but hopefully it won't be embarrassing.

[colgate13]

No way in the world does it take 10 years for UA and SBU to be a "player" in IAA. At most it will take 4 years for these programs to be ramped up to 50-60 rides and be competitive. Now, will they knock of Delaware or Montana?...

This is my definition of "a whole different level". In 4 years yes, you're a school/schools with 63 scholarship, but IMO that doesn't guarantee a thing. Elon has 63 scholarships. So does the entire OVC. My comment was actually a compliment in saying that in 10 years I think you will be more than just competitive. More likely considered 'solid'.


As it is now UA, CCSU, and Monmouth are mid tier PL teams(I know PL posters hate this but it is true). They have beaten mid tier to low end PL teams consistentlly for over 3 or 4 years.

I don't hate it. It's true.


These programs trail only Colgate, Lehigh, and Lafayette with only AID BASED NEED...soon to be 8-10 scholarships. Are these 3 PL teams I mention better then last year? If not maybe they trail only Colgate (think CCSU is a fluke or not it happened).

This is one flaw I frequently see in some NEC supporters opinions. Need-based or not, CU, LC, LU have better football histories and spend (at least until UA and SB are fully ramped up) twice as much as even a now scholarship NEC. Money is money. We put up a hurdle we don't need to in awarding it, but we're still awarding it to about twice as many athletes. That makes a difference.

Going forward, who knows? The top of the PL remains competitive with the A-10. If UA or SB can get to that level, I guess we'll all kind of be there together.


When Monmouth and UA play Fordham this season they fully expect to win. In fact both Monmouth and UA think the Fordham game will be easier then playing each other(No disrespect meant towards Fordham) Lehigh will probably beat Albany and I gaurantee Albany knocks off Delaware at Delaware..LOLOOLOLOLOL....just making sure you are all listening. Delaware crushes UA but hopefully it won't be embarrassing.

The good thing about some schedules in the future is that we do have some overlap. No need to speculate. The proof will be in the pudding. We see Monmouth this year and Albany after that. Should be exciting stuff!

[JoltinJoe]

When Monmouth and UA play Fordham this season they fully expect to win. In fact both Monmouth and UA think the Fordham game will be easier then playing each other(No disrespect meant towards Fordham) Lehigh will probably beat Albany and I gaurantee Albany knocks off Delaware at Delaware..LOLOOLOLOLOL....just making sure you are all listening. Delaware crushes UA but hopefully it won't be embarrassing.

The Fordham team which takes the field this fall will in no way resemble the dispirited group from last season.

Neither Albany nor Monmouth will beat Fordham next year.

[colgate13]

Neither Albany nor Monmouth will beat Fordham next year.

I hope Fordham brings it!

[aceinthehole]

The Fordham team which takes the field this fall will in no way resemble the dispirited group from last season.

Neither Albany nor Monmouth will beat Fordham next year.

As a Blue Devil fan I can say first hand what a great coach Tom Masella is. Yes, the 2006 Fordham team will not look or play like the 2005 team. He will get you a big win or two. Fordham has a very bright future.

However...

That being said, the fact is Albany put the smack down on Fordham last season, and with little to play for since the NEC season was over. IMO - The Danes had a pretty weak offense last season - they only scored 13 vs. CCSU and just a FG vs. Stony Brook, the 2 NEC co-champs. Yet they put up a whopping 41 points and shut out the Rams. I mean they only scored 21 vs. a 4-6 Sacred Heart team. Their strength is the Defense anchored by a great LB named Dish.

Bottom line I actually EXPECT Albany to win, and doubt if Fordham scores more than 17 points (and everyone knows I'm not the biggest UA fan in the world :)) Monmouth will be a close game, but the Hawks could also pull out the win for the NEC!

[JoltinJoe]

As a Blue Devil fan I can say first hand what a great coach Tom Masella is. Yes, the 2006 Fordham team will not look or play like the 2005 team. He will get you a big win or two. Fordham has a very bright future.

However...

That being said, the fact is Albany put the smack down on Fordham last season, and with little to play for since the NEC season was over. IMO - The Danes had a pretty weak offense last season - they only scored 13 vs. CCSU and just a FG vs. Stony Brook, the 2 NEC co-champs. Yet they put up a whopping 41 points and shut out the Rams. I mean they only scored 21 vs. a 4-6 Sacred Heart team. Their strength is the Defense anchored by a great LB named Dish.

Bottom line I actually EXPECT Albany to win, and doubt if Fordham scores more than 17 points (and everyone knows I'm not the biggest UA fan in the world :)) Monmouth will be a close game, but the Hawks could also pull out the win for the NEC!

You can't put too much emphasis on one game. Fordham was down that day, playing for a coach on the way out and who had lost control of the team.

Don't be surprised, too, if you see a 6-5 frosh who turned down UTEP starting at QB for Fordham.

[colgate13]

Don't be surprised, too, if you see a 6-5 frosh who turned down UTEP starting at QB for Fordham.

My big worry would be who's blocking for him!

But yes, if Fordham has a better QB than Daniels last year, they might have one a few more games. Especially if that QB was a leader.

[JoltinJoe]

My big worry would be who's blocking for him!

But yes, if Fordham has a better QB than Daniels last year, they might have one a few more games. Especially if that QB was a leader.

Our line was a huge problem last year. We suffered a number of injuries to our starters pretty early in the season and we would up putting an inexperienced group out there for most of the season. Many observers felt that the offensive line was the beginning of the end, and that the season all went downhill from there.

This season, we will be much bigger on the O-line than we have been in the past.

I expect Daniels is going to wind up at a wide out position ultimately. An exciting player, but he has been too mistake prone at QB.

2006 Spring Football Prospectus (http://www.fordhamsports.com/QuickInfoFiles/Football/06FBProspectus.pdf)

(The O Line write-up is at pages five and six)