BIG Big South Announcement - Adds Presbyterian College

[rokamortis]

Presbyterian makes the move to Division I

School to join Big South Conference for the start of the 2007-08 school year

CLINTON — In an effort to gain greater exposure for its school while competing at a higher level of athletics, Presbyterian College will join the Big South Conference for the 2007-08 school year. Big South members compete at the NCAA Division I-AA level in football and at the Division I-A level in all other sports.

The Presbyterian College board of trustees is expected to approve the move when it meets on Tuesday and votes on the proposal presented by Presbyterian president John Griffith.

“I’ve heard it said that PC is the best-kept secret in the state,” Presbyterian athletics director Bee Carlton said of the school’s academic reputation. “As an alum, I’m tired of that. We want people to know about us. (Athletics) is the first way people today get to know about you.

“Also, the objective is to recruit exceptionally talented athletes, which we already do. But so many young people today will cross you off their list if you’re not Division I.”

...

Under NCAA guidelines, the 2006-07 athletics season will be “exploratory” as Presbyterian continues to compete in the Division II South Atlantic Conference. For the following four school years, Presbyterian will join the Big South Conference but will not be allowed to compete for championships during the NCAA “transition” period. Presbyterian would become a full-fledged Division I school for the 2011-12 seasons.

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/thestate/sports/14219028.htm?source=rss&channel=thestate_sports

[rokamortis]

Big South members compete at the NCAA Division I-AA level in football and at the Division I-A level in all other sports.


:doh:

[walliver]

The article is interesting (besides the I-A mistake) including this quote:

“There are many fine Division I schools in South Carolina,” said Bill Gray, a board member in Atlanta, “but if you look at the U.S. News and World Report rankings of the top colleges, the first seven and 14 of the first 15 are Division III schools. I would like PC, as a very high-quality liberal arts school, to stake their position with schools of that caliber." xidiotx

Also interesting is that PC currently only gives out 25 scholarships now (which probably explains their blowout loss to UCA in the Division II playoffs) and doesn't expect to be able to play I-A games (as counters) until 2015.

Overall, it is a good move for PC, as Division II athletics had become an academic wasteland with lower standards than Division I, and it is hard to maintain academic standards and compete nationally.

[TexasTerror]

Congrats to PC for making the move up!

I bet the Big South is really happy about adding another team. They're still quite some time from getting playoff eligible (as it relates to an auto-bid), but this is a step in the right direction...

[rokamortis]

Congrats to PC for making the move up!

I bet the Big South is really happy about adding another team. They're still quite some time from getting playoff eligible (as it relates to an auto-bid), but this is a step in the right direction...

How long would it take for teh conference to be eligible for an auto-bid?

[TexasTerror]

How long would it take for teh conference to be eligible for an auto-bid?

I forget the rules about how long teams need to be in the league and all the things related to the Div I-AA status...wish I could help... :bang:

[eaglesrthe1]

Six years, I think.

[OL FU]

First, I am happy for our fellow small private to the south for making the move and I am happy for the BigSouth and think it is a good move.

And, I am not trying to be sarcastic but I have to say this, Thank God this ends the rumor of PC moving to the SoCon:hurray:

[rokamortis]

Six years, I think.

I have heard that the teams need to play together for 2 or 3 years. But that also in order for a team to be counted that they have to be D-I for 8 years. I don't know if there is an exemption or not, so I'm guessing 2015. but I was hoping we had someone here who knows the rules inside and out - perhaps some of our friends from the Dakotas will know since they recently made the move as well.

[GeauxLions94]

Welcome to the I-AA family :hurray:

[colgate13]

The article is interesting (besides the I-A mistake) including this quote:

“There are many fine Division I schools in South Carolina,” said Bill Gray, a board member in Atlanta, “but if you look at the U.S. News and World Report rankings of the top colleges, the first seven and 14 of the first 15 are Division III schools. I would like PC, as a very high-quality liberal arts school, to stake their position with schools of that caliber." xidiotx


The board member is a bit off with his statment here. 2 out of the top 15 USNWR liberal arts colleges are Division I - Davidson at 10 and Colgate at 15.

He's even more off though with the final sentence. PC is ranked 100 in that same list - past Wells College and down around Juniata. They've got a LONG way to go to get in the caliber he's referencing.

He'd be better off (and still have a LONG way to go) looking at fellow Division I liberal arts schools in South Carolina, Furman (41) and Wofford (55). Getting to their level would be a huge accomplishment for PC. First step is to get an endowment that is in the 9 figures. You're not going anywhere substantially higher with a $74 million dollar endowment.

[TexasTerror]

There's nothing on the Blue Hose Athletic web site about the move just yet...

http://www.presby.edu/bluehose/

[Coastal89]

Here you go TT.
http://d2football.com/message/viewtopic.php?t=41

[Coastal89]

Here are some pictures of the PC stadium. It's pretty new but, like ours at Coastal, it needs to be expanded. Current capacity is a little over 4000.

http://www.d2football.com/stadiums/presbyterian_stadium_2.jpg
http://www.d2football.com/stadiums/presbyterian_stadium_7.jpg

[TexasTerror]

That's a nice looking pressbox they got there...

I bet it would not be hard at hall to expand the side that faces the pressbox...

[colgate13]

Here are some pictures of the PC stadium. It's pretty new but, like ours at Coastal, it needs to be expanded. Current capacity is a little over 4000.

2005 home attendance:

vs. West Georgia - 2986
vs. Fayetteville state - 3165
vs. Catawba - 3862
vs. Tusculum - 1876
vs. Mars Hill - 5820 (Homecoming)
vs. UCA - 5578 (playoffs)

From the Presby website: Constructed in 2002, the new Bailey Memorial Stadium features a state-of-the-art press box, 6,500 seat grandstand, the Yonce field house, and a full color video board.

My guess is that with the away side adding 500, maybe 1000, seats, Presby doesn't need to expand anytime soon.

More importantly though: wait. That's a good idea for a new thread. :)

[GannonFan]

Good move for Presby - I still dislike the length the NCAA puts on the time it takes to fully complete the move to DI-AA - they're not going to be playoff eligible until the 2011 season. I could see 2 maybe 3 years, but this 6 year thing is just silly.

[89Hen]

I still dislike the length the NCAA puts on the time it takes to fully complete the move to DI-AA - they're not going to be playoff eligible until the 2011 season. I could see 2 maybe 3 years, but this 6 year thing is just silly.
:nod: Agreed 100%. The Great West should ALL be eligible THIS year.

[gophoenix]

Good move for Presby - I still dislike the length the NCAA puts on the time it takes to fully complete the move to DI-AA - they're not going to be playoff eligible until the 2011 season. I could see 2 maybe 3 years, but this 6 year thing is just silly.

Elon annouced to join in 1997 and was playoff eligible by 1999. Unless things have changed, the transition periond isn't that long. Plus, that is one of the reasons you see I-AA schools with a shorter transition period than I-AAA schools.

As for the other question, the I-AA bylaws state that a conference must play with a minimum of the same 6 playoff eligible members for a minimum of 2 years before they are eligible for an automatic bid.

[GannonFan]

Elon annouced to join in 1997 and was playoff eligible by 1999. Unless things have changed, the transition periond isn't that long. Plus, that is one of the reasons you see I-AA schools with a shorter transition period than I-AAA schools.

As for the other question, the I-AA bylaws state that a conference must play with a minimum of the same 6 playoff eligible members for a minimum of 2 years before they are eligible for an automatic bid.

It has to be different than back in the Elon days - the Great West teams have had to wait longer than that. Definitely different now.

[OL FU]

Elon annouced to join in 1997 and was playoff eligible by 1999. Unless things have changed, the transition periond isn't that long. Plus, that is one of the reasons you see I-AA schools with a shorter transition period than I-AAA schools.

As for the other question, the I-AA bylaws state that a conference must play with a minimum of the same 6 playoff eligible members for a minimum of 2 years before they are eligible for an automatic bid.

When did you move from DII to I-AA?

[grizband]

According to the website cfbdatawarehouse.com, Elon moved up to I-AA in 1999, and was an Independent until 2001.


1997-1998 Division II Independent

1999-2001 Division I-AA Independent

2002-2002 Big South Conference

2003-20XX Southern Conference

[dbackjon]

Division I did lengthen the time to become eligible for playoffs - it was mainly designed to stem the flow of schools into the lucrative Basketball playoffs.

[GannonFan]

Division I did lengthen the time to become eligible for playoffs - it was mainly designed to stem the flow of schools into the lucrative Basketball playoffs.

Which I think is kinda halfhearted - what about all those schools that don't have a football program and can just move up to DI basketball without the fear of the football program being in a limbo state for 5 some years? Obviously with the ranks of DI basketball swelling to 334 teams this year and no end in sight, that design failed to stop teams from moving up and simply placed an undue burden on schools with football teams - not that the NCAA hasn't fully thought out the reprecussions of one of their policies in the past...:eek:

[Go...gate]

Didn't PC have a big rivalry with Wofford? I remember reading this in Bo Schembechler's book (he coached at PC for one season).

[*****]

Exploratory year
1st year provisional
2nd year provisional
3rd year provisional
4th year provisional
Full D-I member

It takes a while to transition and meet all the NCAA requirements.

Conf autobid:
6 teams who have been D-I for eight years and played football in the conference for two years

[GannonFan]

Exploratory year
1st year provisional
2nd year provisional
3rd year provisional
4th year provisional
Full D-I member

It takes a while to transition and meet all the NCAA requirements.

Conf autobid:
6 teams who have been D-I for eight years and played football in the conference for two years

As for being DI for 8 years, do they get credit for the 5 years before being a full member or does the clock start when they become a full member?

[walliver]

Didn't PC have a big rivalry with Wofford? I remember reading this in Bo Schembechler's book (he coached at PC for one season).

At one time, Wofford, PC, Newberry, and Erskine were the "Little Four", kind of a take-off on the "Big Four" (South Carolina, Clemson, North Carolina, and NC State). PC's biggest traditional rivalry has been Newberry - they would play each Thanksgiving for the "Bronze Derby". Wofford traditionally has looked at Furman as our big rival, but the Wofford-Furman series was inactive for a long stretch of the 70's and 80's. During that period, PC was our biggest active rival. When Wofford moved to Division I-AA, alumni were told we were looking to join a conference "like the Southern Conference but NOT the Southern Conference", and that teams like PC, Newberry, and Lenoir-Rhyne would still be played every year. Two years later we were in the Southern Conference and playing an all D-1 schedule. There is a whole generation of younger Wofford fans who have never seen a Wofford-PC game in any sport.

When Wofford moved to D-1 there was a SEVEN year wait to be eligible for the basketball playoffs and Wofford was initially not allowed to be in the basketball tournament. The NCAA rescinded that rule and created another one and Wofford became eligible for the basketball tournament. There was little or no wait for football or other sports.

I find the football probationary period rediculous. Why does Coastal create a football team which is eligible from the very beginning, and yet teams movng up have to wait for years. (This isn't a dig at Coastal, just pointing out the irony of the situation).

[Go...gate]

Never knew about the "Little Four" or "Big Four", but it sounds like it was a great setup.

[OL FU]

At one time, Wofford, PC, Newberry, and Erskine were the "Little Four", kind of a take-off on the "Big Four" (South Carolina, Clemson, North Carolina, and NC State). PC's biggest traditional rivalry has been Newberry - they would play each Thanksgiving for the "Bronze Derby". Wofford traditionally has looked at Furman as our big rival, but the Wofford-Furman series was inactive for a long stretch of the 70's and 80's. During that period, PC was our biggest active rival. When Wofford moved to Division I-AA, alumni were told we were looking to join a conference "like the Southern Conference but NOT the Southern Conference", and that teams like PC, Newberry, and Lenoir-Rhyne would still be played every year. Two years later we were in the Southern Conference and playing an all D-1 schedule. There is a whole generation of younger Wofford fans who have never seen a Wofford-PC game in any sport.

When Wofford moved to D-1 there was a SEVEN year wait to be eligible for the basketball playoffs and Wofford was initially not allowed to be in the basketball tournament. The NCAA rescinded that rule and created another one and Wofford became eligible for the basketball tournament. There was little or no wait for football or other sports.

I find the football probationary period rediculous. Why does Coastal create a football team which is eligible from the very beginning, and yet teams movng up have to wait for years. (This isn't a dig at Coastal, just pointing out the irony of the situation).

Very accurate, except my recollection of the big four and little four were South Carolina teams. You got the little four right, the big four were USC, Clemson, Citadel and Furman. :p :)

[dbackjon]

I find the football probationary period rediculous. Why does Coastal create a football team which is eligible from the very beginning, and yet teams movng up have to wait for years. (This isn't a dig at Coastal, just pointing out the irony of the situation).

Because Coastal was already D-I in all sports for the required length of time. If ODU (for example) starts up a football team, they do not have a transitional period.

[walliver]

Very accurate, except my recollection of the big four and little four were South Carolina teams. You got the little four right, the big four were USC, Clemson, Citadel and Furman. :p :)

You're probably right, I was thinking of the Big Four Basketball Tournament played every year in Charlotte.

The Big Four and Little Four were basically before my time, but my father spoke of them often. I do remember the "Little Four" Basketball Tournament was played until the early 1970's. Erskine seems to have dropped off the map after dropping football.

[OL FU]

Because Coastal was already D-I in all sports for the required length of time. If ODU (for example) starts up a football team, they do not have a transitional period.

Good point, but I would say the length of the probation is still ridiculous. Look at how good NDSU and Davis are, and both are not eligible until ????? 2007 or 2008. Two years seems long enough.

[OL FU]

You're probably right, I was thinking of the Big Four Basketball Tournament played every year in Charlotte.

The Big Four and Little Four were basically before my time, but my father spoke of them often. I do remember the "Little Four" Basketball Tournament was played until the early 1970's. Erskine seems to have dropped off the map after dropping football.


I am old. The big four BBall tournament was the teams you mentioned. At some point however, Clemson and USC dropped out of that I suppose because all four were in the ACC and three games a year with NC and NC State plus a possible tournament game were a little much. FU and Citadel took therr place for a few years which allowed the occurence of one of FU's biggest basketball moments. Beating both NC teams in Charlotte:hurray: Those were the days:(

[GannonFan]

Good point, but I would say the length of the probation is still ridiculous. Look at how good NDSU and Davis are, and both are not eligible until ????? 2007 or 2008. Two years seems long enough.

I don't believe the time period is in place to allow teams to improve to that level - obviously NDSU and Davis and others are more than proof that these teams are more than capable - rather, it's a cautionary step to give schools a reason to think whether they want to move up in the first place. This could dissuade some teams from too rashly deciding to move up. I think it's a bit draconian, but hey, that's the NCAA for you.

[gophoenix]

North Carolina had a "little four" a long long time ago.... Guilford, Elon, Trinity (now Duke) and Wake Forest (when they were in Wake Forest and not Winston-Salem).

Anyhow, before Newberry was in the SAC-8, Presbyterian had a descent rivalry with Elon and Wingate.

[gophoenix]

I can't believe it has changed. I think the rules should be difference for football schools than basketball schools (I-AA vs I-AAA is you will). Granted, you need to sports up to DI levels (isn't there more to it than jsut saying you're DI and reclassifying)? Don't you have to offer a minimum number of sports total and mininum number of women's sports and have to have some sort of Title IX compliance above what DII requires or checks for?

I find it sort of interesting though. The SAC-8 originally had Elon and Gardner-Webb in it too (charter members). The league was one of the only ones that strictly controlled scholarships for sports, which is why Presby's scholarship are low. And so far, it is one of the DII leagues bleeding schools the most.

This should pave the way for Choawn, N. Greenville and UNC-Pembroke to go into the SAC-8, though.

[OL FU]

I can't believe it has changed. I think the rules should be difference for football schools than basketball schools (I-AA vs I-AAA is you will). Granted, you need to sports up to DI levels (isn't there more to it than jsut saying you're DI and reclassifying)? Don't you have to offer a minimum number of sports total and mininum number of women's sports and have to have some sort of Title IX compliance above what DII requires or checks for?

I find it sort of interesting though. The SAC-8 originally had Elon and Gardner-Webb in it too (charter members). The league was one of the only ones that strictly controlled scholarships for sports, which is why Presby's scholarship are low. And so far, it is one of the DII leagues bleeding schools the most.

This should pave the way for Choawn, N. Greenville and UNC-Pembroke to go into the SAC-8, though.

Ny vague recollection though is that at one time, maybe the 70's or 80's the SAC 8 was a DII powerhouse. Elon and Carson Newman in particular come to mind as strong teams in other DII days

[colgate13]

Don't you have to offer a minimum number of sports total and mininum number of women's sports and have to have some sort of Title IX compliance above what DII requires or checks for?

Yes to the first part, no to the second.

Title IX isn't a NCAA Division I/II/III thing. It's a U.S. Department of Ed thing via Congress's Higher Education Act. The DOE doesn't care if you're NCAA I/II/III. You need to be in compliance no matter what.

[walliver]

Ny vague recollection though is that at one time, maybe the 70's or 80's the SAC 8 was a DII powerhouse. Elon and Carson Newman in particular come to mind as strong teams in other DII days

The SAC-8 was an NAIA powerhouse, Elon won 2 National Championships and C-N has done fairly well in the D-II era. Unfortunately, PC's performance in the play-offs demonstrates that there is a big difference now between the SAC-8 and the D-II big boys - Grand Valley State, Valdosta State, etc. A lot of the top D-II teams get where they are with JuCo and Division I transfers as well as top flight players who don't meet D-I academic standards. (Of course transfers haven't helped Newberry a lot).

[OL FU]

The SAC-8 was an NAIA powerhouse, Elon won 2 National Championships and C-N has done fairly well in the D-II era. Unfortunately, PC's performance in the play-offs demonstrates that there is a big difference now between the SAC-8 and the D-II big boys - Grand Valley State, Valdosta State, etc. A lot of the top D-II teams get where they are with JuCo and Division I transfers as well as top flight players who don't meet D-I academic standards. (Of course transfers haven't helped Newberry a lot).

NAIA, how soon I forget. :nod:

[UAalum72]

Granted, you need to sports up to DI levels (isn't there more to it than jsut saying you're DI and reclassifying)? Don't you have to offer a minimum number of sports total and mininum number of women's sports and have to have some sort of Title IX compliance above what DII requires or checks for?
10 sports for D-II, 14 for D-I (16 for the I-A subdivision) with one team sport for each gender in each season. For schools moving up, there are also administrative requirements - you have to demonstrate that academic and compliance oversight is in place. I think there's a minimum number of scholarships for the athletic department (75 not including basketball?)

[IaaScribe]

This article is flawed.

There has been no invitation to join the Big South Conference.

Presbyterian College has not applied to join the Big South Conference.

Presbyterian hasn't even voted to move to Division I yet, so it can't apply for conference memberships.

There have been talks, and those talks are ongoing, but no vote has been made by the conference.

[OL FU]

This article is flawed.

There has been no invitation to join the Big South Conference.

Presbyterian College has not applied to join the Big South Conference.

Presbyterian hasn't even voted to move to Division I yet, so it can't apply for conference memberships.

There have been talks, and those talks are ongoing, but no vote has been made by the conference.

The reporter jumped the gun terribly.

Will someone delete this threadxlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
I hope the rumors about the SoCon don't start again:bang:

[IaaScribe]

Just sayin' ... I just spoke to both Kyle Kallander and Bee Carlton at PC and both of them said this is not a done deal, like the article portrays.

[OL FU]

Just sayin' ... I just spoke to both Kyle Kallander and Bee Carlton at PC and both of them said this is not a done deal, like the article portrays.

and I appreciate, but the reporter either badly misquoted the AD or the AD jumped the gun, dontcha think?

[IaaScribe]

I think the AD might have been too enthusiastic, but there wasn't a comment anywhere from anyone in the Big South. To me, that raises a red flag.

Look, it's very likely a done deal. But it's tough to run "very likelies" in the newspaper without any confirmation from the other side of the deal, ya know.

[rokamortis]

I think the AD might have been too enthusiastic, but there wasn't a comment anywhere from anyone in the Big South. To me, that raises a red flag.

Look, it's very likely a done deal. But it's tough to run "very likelies" in the newspaper without any confirmation from the other side of the deal, ya know.

I thought it was odd to run something as a fact when there are still little things like boards voting that still have to be done. But the truth is that everyone at PC and likely the Big South knows it is going to happen - it just isn't official yet. I know a person with a child who is a student athlete at PC and they told me a couple of months ago that it was going to happen. The reporter should have just waited until Wednesday or Thursday to run the official story.

[Mr. C]

Maybe there is more to it than you think. Just because Kyle isn't telling you on the record there has been an invite doesn't mean that an agreement between the Big South and Presbyterian hasn't been reached, at least in principal. Kyle will use the media for his best interests, like most conference commissioners.

[IaaScribe]

I thought it was odd to run something as a fact when there are still little things like boards voting that still have to be done. But the truth is that everyone at PC and likely the Big South knows it is going to happen - it just isn't official yet. I know a person with a child who is a student athlete at PC and they told me a couple of months ago that it was going to happen. The reporter should have just waited until Wednesday or Thursday to run the official story.

Actually, all he had to do was say that the board would vote Tuesday and that at that time the school was expected to apply for Big South membership and that there has already been communication between the two sides. That takes care of everything.

Instead, the report says that the school will join the Big South without any confirmation from anyone in the conference.

Sorry Mr. C., that doesn't cut it in my book. But I understand where you're coming from.

I agree that something has probably been agreed upon on principal between the two parties, but without any corroboration, it's just speculation. And we've had plenty of stories from all over the conference about speculation that PC will join the league. This is another speculation piece dressed up as hard fact, when in fact it's not hard fact.

[*****]

Actually, all he had to do was say that the board would vote Tuesday and that at that time the school was expected to apply for Big South membership and that there has already been communication between the two sides. That takes care of everything...Did you call the reporter? Reach Morris at (803) 771-8432

Kallander was on I-AA WAVES a couple weeks ago and spoke on expansion...

[*****]

As for being DI for 8 years, do they get credit for the 5 years before being a full member or does the clock start when they become a full member?The years a Division II institution spends in the reclassification process to Division I (typically five years, including the exploratory year) do not count towards the eight years that a conference member must be an active Division I institution. Please note that this is only critical when that institution is needed as one of the six core institutions within a conference.

[IaaScribe]

Ralph, I haven't, because I was more interested in hunting Kallander and Carlton down and now have a high school tennis preview to concentrate on. That'll be fun. : smh :

Just curious, what did Kallander say on Waves (was working and didn't have time to listen). Was he as coy as he usually is, or was he a bit more candid about the subject? He's never been very good about leaking talk of expansion, but he's at least admitted that there has been talk between PC and the league.

Again, this is very likely a done deal, but the report itself may have been premature.

Of course, the Washington Post reporting Dave Odom as Virginia's new basketball coach last spring was supposedly a done deal, and Dave Leitao ended up there. That's why stuff like this worries me ...

[CSU BUCS]

They talked about it on the local tv news station here in clemson tonight, WYFF 4. On the news they said that PC was moving to D-1 and joining the Big South.
So it's not just this one print reporter.

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Ralph,


The years a Division II institution spends in the reclassification process to Division I (typically five years, including the exploratory year) do not count towards the eight years that a conference member must be an active Division I institution. Please note that this is only critical when that institution is needed as one of the six core institutions within a conference.

I new it was long, but that is really a long time.

[IaaScribe]

They talked about it on the local tv news station here in clemson tonight, WYFF 4. On the news they said that PC was moving to D-1 and joining the Big South.
So it's not just this one print reporter.

Well, that's because TV people just read the newspaper verbatim on the air. :D


[/ducking]

[*****]

Ralph,
I new it was long, but that is really a long time.
J,
I thought tht was the deal but I called and verified it anyway. :)

[SoCon48]

Ya know. If Southern Cal and Texas joined the Big South, it would still find a way to be the same medocre big south.
Sad.

[SoCon48]

Well, that's because TV people just read the newspaper verbatim on the air. :D


[/ducking]

Truer words have never been spoken. Same goes for the lame political coverage we've all become accustomed to.

[gophoenix]

Title IX isn't a NCAA Division I/II/III thing. It's a U.S. Department of Ed thing via Congress's Higher Education Act. The DOE doesn't care if you're NCAA I/II/III. You need to be in compliance no matter what.

Yes, I understand that it is a Congressional act (which is crappy, let the students decide by not entering a school if they don't like the opportunities for women ... there are more women students, so if enrollment was hurt, things would change without the laws).

But, what I am saying is that there is more oversight of Title IX in DI because of the relative image and focus of media attention for most DI schools.... I didn't mean to imply that Title IX didn't apply to everyone, that you'll find enforcement being stricter the closer you get to the spotlight.

[asufan87]

What are the folks at Presbyterian thinking? Do they honestly think they can compete with the Montanas, Delawares, Georgia Southerns, and Appalachians of the world? Why become homecoming fodder for these programs when they can stay in Div-II and compete for a national championship!

[rokamortis]

What are the folks at Presbyterian thinking? Do they honestly think they can compete with the Montanas, Delawares, Georgia Southerns, and Appalachians of the world? Why become homecoming fodder for these programs when they can stay in Div-II and compete for a national championship!

Why wouldn't they be able to compete with the top programs?

[colgate13]

I'm sensing a level of sarcasm here - kind of like the argument most of us here throw out when a I-AA goes/talks about going I-A. Seems silly when we apply it downward to a II going I-AA, no?

In defense of the mentality, the difference between the top of II and top of I-AA is closer IMO than the top of I-AA and I-AA. NDSU is exhibit A.

[nlwwln]

congrats PC, good move for the conference!:hurray:

[walliver]

What are the folks at Presbyterian thinking? Do they honestly think they can compete with the Montanas, Delawares, Georgia Southerns, and Appalachians of the world? Why become homecoming fodder for these programs when they can stay in Div-II and compete for a national championship!

This is an argument many of my fellow Wofford alumni made when Wofford moved to Division I. In fact, Wofford has won more I-AA playoff games then D-II playoff games. As it is currently established, academically oriented programs cannot compete in D-II. Division I academic requirements are already below the entrance requirements of many schools, and D-II standards are even lower. The top tier of D-II is full of D-I transfers and JuCo transfers, as well as BCS level players who don't meet D-I standards.

Top D-II programs can compete with the top I-AA programs as much as we would like to believe otherwise. In fact, in 2003, a I-AA semifinalist (FAU) lost to a D-II school (Valdosta State). Most I-AA schools have enough sense not to schedule Valdosta State, Grand Valley State, etc.

When Wofford realized we couldn't compete in D-II, a decision was made to go D-I or D-III. Fortunately, our administration made the right choice. PC is in a smaller market, has a much smaller stadium, and less community support (population of Clinton is 10,000), and has a harder row to hoe, but I don't think they really had a lot of choice (especially since most PC grads consider their peer institutions to be Wofford, Furman and Davidson).

[AppMan]

I am old. The big four BBall tournament was the teams you mentioned. At some point however, Clemson and USC dropped out of that I suppose because all four were in the ACC and three games a year with NC and NC State plus a possible tournament game were a little much. FU and Citadel took therr place for a few years which allowed the occurence of one of FU's biggest basketball moments. Beating both NC teams in Charlotte:hurray: Those were the days:(

The Big Four Tournament was a Christmas Tournament between unc-ch, dook, weak forest, & nc state. The North / South double header was not a tournament as such, but a couple of preseason games between two of the Big Four schools (which rotated between years), USC & Clemson. Both events came to an end in the mid 70's after the schools decided they were seeing too much of one another during the season.

[AppMan]

What are the folks at Presbyterian thinking? Do they honestly think they can compete with the Montanas, Delawares, Georgia Southerns, and Appalachians of the world? Why become homecoming fodder for these programs when they can stay in Div-II and compete for a national championship!

I agree! What a bunch of pie in the sky dreamers! I can't believe someone would want to leave a division they are extremely competitive in just for the sake of stroking their egos to feel better about themselves. What are they thinking??? Boy oh boy! They'll regret the day they left the friendly confines of D-II! And just think of all the additional money they'll have to spend for scholarships, coaches, staff, and travel! These people must be out of their minds!

[rokamortis]

I'm sensing a level of sarcasm here - kind of like the argument most of us here throw out when a I-AA goes/talks about going I-A. Seems silly when we apply it downward to a II going I-AA, no?

In defense of the mentality, the difference between the top of II and top of I-AA is closer IMO than the top of I-AA and I-AA. NDSU is exhibit A.

Maybe my sarcasm meter didn't catch it - AppMan's is much easier for me to detect :)

I don't share that view that many others do here about moving up. I support any school to play at the level they feel is best for the institution.

[asufan87]

They'll regret the day they left the friendly confines of D-II!

Aren't they better off being a big fish in a small pond?

[AppMan]

Aren't they better off being a big fish in a small pond?

Evidently, those same arguements don't pertain to everybody moving up. Just those considering a move to 1-A.

[*****]

Last year:
Smallest pond I-A - 119 teams
Smaller pond I-AA - 120 teams
Small pond D-II - 148 teams
Biggest pond D-III - 219 teams

[asufan87]

What are they thinking???

They haven't even won a Division II championship. Shouldn't they do that before looking to move up?:confused:

[BigApp]

First, I am happy for our fellow small private to the south for making the move and I am happy for the BigSouth and think it is a good move.

And, I am not trying to be sarcastic but I have to say this, Thank God this ends the rumor of PC moving to the SoCon:hurray:


for now....:o

[BigApp]

This article is flawed.

There has been no invitation to join the Big South Conference.

Presbyterian College has not applied to join the Big South Conference.

Presbyterian hasn't even voted to move to Division I yet, so it can't apply for conference memberships.

There have been talks, and those talks are ongoing, but no vote has been made by the conference.


But, it's IN PRINT & IN A NEWSPAPER...isn't that's all that needed on this website for proof?:D

[UAalum72]

They haven't even won a Division II championship. Shouldn't they do that before looking to move up?:confused:
Of course not. New division, you compete under new rules of engagement.

This isn't the English Soccer leagues, where the bottom team drops down a division, and the top team moves up.

Otherwise, someone might ask shouldn't Ap State win a I-AA championship before even thinking about I-A?

[*****]

But, it's IN PRINT & IN A NEWSPAPER...isn't that's all that needed on this website for proof?:DYes, proof that the poster isn't making it up.

I-AA.org runs official releases so that media info is not mixed with official reports. Nothing is official yet.

[MountaineerDrive]

Of course not. New division, you compete under new rules of engagement.

This isn't the English Soccer leagues, where the bottom team drops down a division, and the top team moves up.

Otherwise, someone might ask shouldn't Ap State win a I-AA championship before even thinking about I-A?

Hopefully one of these years we will win one.:p

[ucdtim17]

There are so many two bit schools moving up every year now, it makes those of us who actually should be D1 look bad. If they think they can compete, bring it on I guess. More power to them

[ucdtim17]

but 1200 students??? that's what D3 is for

[asufan87]

Otherwise, someone might ask shouldn't Ap State win a I-AA championship before even thinking about I-A?

Oh and they have asked that exact question. I'm simply highlighting all the excuses used when a I-AA even hints at a move to I-A. However, when a D-II looks to move to I-AA, a different standard seems to apply.

[*****]

Oh and they have asked that exact question. I'm simply highlighting all the excuses used when a I-AA even hints at a move to I-A. However, when a D-II looks to move to I-AA, a different standard seems to apply.Got the humor. :nod:

But D-II to D-I is a lot different than D-I playoffs to D-I BCS. One involves all sports.

[Lapper]

:boring:

[nlwwln]

Of course not. New division, you compete under new rules of engagement.

This isn't the English Soccer leagues, where the bottom team drops down a division, and the top team moves up.

Otherwise, someone might ask shouldn't Ap State win a I-AA championship before even thinking about I-A?

tell that to liberty

[Thumper250]

The move's happening for PC to the Big South. And in 5-10 they'll be looking SoCon.

[OL FU]

The Big Four Tournament was a Christmas Tournament between unc-ch, dook, weak forest, & nc state. The North / South double header was not a tournament as such, but a couple of preseason games between two of the Big Four schools (which rotated between years), USC & Clemson. Both events came to an end in the mid 70's after the schools decided they were seeing too much of one another during the season.

You are correct sir. North South was the title

[IaaScribe]

The Big South has scheduled a conference call to discuss conference membership tomorrow.

[Sly Fox]

tell that to liberty

xlolx

[blukeys]

but 1200 students??? that's what D3 is for


You are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. The ability to field any athletic team depends more on the commitment of the school and the financial resources they can bring to the table rather than their student enrollment. If Student enrollment was the sole criteria then U. of Miami would never be I-A as their enrollment is about the level of Delaware and a host of other I-AA teams.

In my home town I have a D-3 school and a I-AA school with almost identical undergrad enrollments.

Another issue would be the student M/F composition and the number of female sports with scollies. A higher male enrollment helps football and other male dominated sports (talk to Lehigh about this)

Congrats to Presbyterian and welcome to I-AA whoever you guys are since I had no clue prior to today that you existed.

[ucdtim17]

You are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. The ability to field any athletic team depends more on the commitment of the school and the financial resources they can bring to the table rather than their student enrollment. If Student enrollment was the sole criteria then U. of Miami would never be I-A as their enrollment is about the level of Delaware and a host of other I-AA teams.

In my home town I have a D-3 school and a I-AA school with almost identical undergrad enrollments.

Another issue would be the student M/F composition and the number of female sports with scollies. A higher male enrollment helps football and other male dominated sports (talk to Lehigh about this)

Congrats to Presbyterian and welcome to I-AA whoever you guys are since I had no clue prior to today that you existed.

I understand that there are more important factors than enrollment when it comes to athletic success, but 1200 is the size of my high school and I went to a smallish high school. It seems like everyone and their brother are going D1. How many schools are transitioning now? 10? 15? I guess it's not necessarily a zero-sum game, but it seems like if everyone is "D1," then it doesn't really mean anything. oh well - good luck

[Sly Fox]

PC has a very nice academic reputation and some relatively deep pockets to try and make the move work. This move has been anticipated for quite some time.

[OL FU]

I understand that there are more important factors than enrollment when it comes to athletic success, but 1200 is the size of my high school and I went to a smallish high school. It seems like everyone and their brother are going D1. How many schools are transitioning now? 10? 15? I guess it's not necessarily a zero-sum game, but it seems like if everyone is "D1," then it doesn't really mean anything. oh well - good luck

How big is Wofford:confused:

If the school can compete at a D-1 level, then who cares what size the school is?

[walliver]

Football is played with 11 men on the field regardless of the size of the school.

If you think the presence of PC in Division I cheapens D-I then I think you have missed the point.

There are a lot of commuter schools with low graduation rates as well as Diploma Mills in D-I (especially I-AAA). Is that something to be proud of?

There are many schools in D-I where academic standards for athletes are much much lower than the standards for regular students. Is that something to be proud of?

There are many football schools in Division I where average game attendence is less than student enrollment. Is that something to be proud of?

Presbyterian has higher admission standards the Division I and does not lower the bar for athletes and draws a home attendance about 4 times larger than its enrollment. PC also beat Big South Co-champ CSU 42-0.

[OL FU]

Football is played with 11 men on the field regardless of the size of the school.

If you think the presence of PC in Division I cheapens D-I then I think you have missed the point.

There are a lot of commuter schools with low graduation rates as well as Diploma Mills in D-I (especially I-AAA). Is that something to be proud of?

There are many schools in D-I where academic standards for athletes are much much lower than the standards for regular students. Is that something to be proud of?

There are many football schools in Division I where average game attendence is less than student enrollment. Is that something to be proud of?

Presbyterian has higher admission standards the Division I and does not lower the bar for athletes and draws a home attendance about 4 times larger than its enrollment. PC also beat Big South Co-champ CSU 42-0.

Very well said. You know I bet Furman is 1/10 the size of Davis. Come on let's play:D

[Thumper250]

Typical state school arrogance out West I guess.

[NoCoDanny]

Private east coast schools calling western state schools arrogant? I've now officially heard it all...

[OL FU]

Private east coast schools calling western state schools arrogant? I've now officially heard it all...

There is always more to come:D

think he was kidding:confused: :D

[*****]

Coming this afternoon... :)

[nlwwln]

automatic bid?

[ravinggoat]

automatic bid?

Nope. The addition of PC.

[*****]

Presbyterian College is now officially in the Big South

[MarkCCU]

WOW!!! 1 More team. so does this mean an automatic bid or just another team to beat Liberty and North Greenville?

[*****]

WOW!!! 1 More team. so does this mean an automatic bid or just another team to beat Liberty and North Greenville?13 years until it makes the Big South auto eligible.

"Presbyterian College Board of Trustees Votes for Bluehose to begin Division I Process"
http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=77558

"Big South Conference Adds Presbyterian College as New League Member"
http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=77557

[MarkCCU]

i'm not keen on the eligiblity and all that stuff, so why 13 years, or i guess 16 since we started

[OL FU]

Congratulations to both school and conference.

Now which one of you CCU guys are going over to the D-2 board to invite them into the AGS family

[Coastal89]

Congratulations to both school and conference.

Now which one of you CCU guys are going over to the D-2 board to invite them into the AGS family
Sly Fox already has.

[ucdtim17]

As I said, if they are confident they can compete in I-AA football, more power to them. It's just frustrating so many small schools back east play I-AA football, while even the big schools in California don't. St. Mary's and UOP both much bigger than Presbyterian couldn't compete at the D1 level and dropped the sport for the betterment of the rest of the athletic department. CSUN, with 30,000 students, dropped fb. It makes scheduling a nightmare each year for UCD, CP and others. It's frustrating

[walliver]

I understand the reasoning behind a waiting period, but I think the NCAA has gone way overboard.

At one time, NAIA and Division II non-football schools get together, formed Division I conferences, and applied for automatic bids to March Madness. At that time there was no waiting period and some of these conferences received automatic bids to the NCAA basketball tournament (as well as a cut of the money, the one thing the NCAA really cares about).

At that time, a waiting period of 7 years was created for basketball - A team would have to be in Division I for seven years before being eligible to receive an automatic bid.

As far as football was concerned, there was a one-year transitional period when the school was NOT eligible to compete in any D-II post-season, but little if any transition period after going I-AA. For reasons that to me are unclear, the NCAA now has a long waiting period for football (13 years seems way too long - I am not aware of any abuses by transitioning schools in football). And even then the Big South is not guaranteed a bid. I can understand haow the NCAA doesn't want to SAC-8 to suddenly switch to D-I and demand an automatic bid - but 13 years is way too long, and there are already mechanisms in place to make sure that underserving conferences do not receive automatic bids - specifically, automatic bids are not awarded automatically to conferences.

[ucdtim17]

not to mention several schools transitioning now who are setting standards for futility at the higher level (I'm thinking savannah and longwood off the top of my head). not everyone can compete at the highest level

[OL FU]

As I said, if they are confident they can compete in I-AA football, more power to them. It's just frustrating so many small schools back east play I-AA football, while even the big schools in California don't. St. Mary's and UOP both much bigger than Presbyterian couldn't compete at the D1 level and dropped the sport for the betterment of the rest of the athletic department. CSUN, with 30,000 students, dropped fb. It makes scheduling a nightmare each year for UCD, CP and others. It's frustrating

That was said much better. Thank you. You have to realize that Walliver and I get a little frustrated when people talk about small schools inability to compete:D

[OL FU]

Sly Fox already has.

Good for him. :nod:

[walliver]

As I said, if they are confident they can compete in I-AA football, more power to them. It's just frustrating so many small schools back east play I-AA football, while even the big schools in California don't.

I guess it's because California is full of Californians:)

In the South, there are two seasons to the year, Football Season, and Between Football Season. Between Football Season is when we pretend to watch basketball, pretend to watch baseball, relive the highlights of the War of Northern Aggression, go to Family reunions to meet chicks, Kill Animals, Go fishing in order to have a socially acceptable excuse for drinking, and dream of Football Season)

[Go...gate]

Hey, the more the merrier. Congrats to Presbyterian and welcome to the madness that we all know and love as Division I-AA.

[*****]

... For reasons that to me are unclear, the NCAA now has a long waiting period for football (13 years seems way too long - I am not aware of any abuses by transitioning schools in football)...Well, a school is eligible for the playoffs after a five year transition period from D-II to D-I. But they need to be in D-I eight years before they can count as an eligible "core" team for conference football AQ consideration (not to mention playing football for two years in the conference).
Requirements -- National Collegiate Championship
31.3.4.2 Additional Requirements, Sports Other Than Men's Basketball.
To be considered eligible for automatic qualification in a particular sport, a multisport member conference must include six core institutions that satisfy continuity-of-membership. For the purposes of this legislation, core refers to an institution that has been an active member of Division I the eight preceding years. Further, the continuity-of-membership requirement shall be met only if a minimum of six core institutions have conducted conference competition together in Division I the preceding two years in the applicable sport. There shall be no exceptions to the two-year waiting period. Any new member added to a member conference that satisfies the continuity of membership requirements shall be immediately eligible to represent the conference as the automatic qualifier.

[walliver]

If the new rules were in effect 20 years ago, wouldn't there be a few less flags flying in Statesboro?

My argument is, why do I-AAA schools that add football become immediately eligible, while D-II football schools (who are likely to have athletic budgets as high or higher than I-AAA scchools) have to wait

FAU participated in the playoffs in their third year, despite losing to a D-II school. Why does the fact that FAU spent more money on basketball, baseball and women's tiddly-winks make a difference when it comes to football playoffs?

Judging by the Hose's blowout loss to Central Arkansas this year, I don't think it will be an issue for PC, but it could become an issue for Central Arkansas (which will have the same length waiting period).

As far as the long waiting period for automatic bids, I fear that I-AA may be going the way of BCS and limiting access. It will be a long time before any "new" conference becomes automatic bid eligible. The only way a "new" conference can be quickly eligible is for established conferences to re-align. The only way for "up and coming" teams to become eligible is to join an established conference. Central Arkansas will be eligible in 5 years. Coastal Carolina still has to wait 13 years (although I doubt CCU will be playing in the Big South 13 years from now). The BCS has worked around this by creating megaconferences; but, I am old-fashioned and believe that every conference member should play every other conference member every year.

Automatic bids should be awarded by "football people" who know something about football, not be pencil-pushers at the NCAA. Let "The Committee" decide before the year starts which 8 conferences get automatic bids - "The Committee" is far from infallible - but it is better than making the Big South wait 13 years. Of course, until the Big South can demonstrate that it can produce more than one decent team at a time, Coastal Fans shouldn't hold their breath for an automatic bid.

[UAalum72]

My argument is, why do I-AAA schools that add football become immediately eligible, while D-II football schools (who are likely to have athletic budgets as high or higher than I-AAA scchools) have to wait

FAU participated in the playoffs in their third year, despite losing to a D-II school. Why does the fact that FAU spent more money on basketball, baseball and women's tiddly-winks make a difference when it comes to football playoffs?
Because there's more to changing Divisions than just adding more scholarships to football (academic requirements, compliance structure). And don't mix the waiting period for a school to be eligible with the waiting period for an ineligible conference trying to qualify only by adding a school which has already has its built-in time lag. If CCU had gone to a different conference, or if the BS could lure a non-startup program they wouldn't have to wait so long.

[*****]

... Central Arkansas will be eligible in 5 years. Coastal Carolina still has to wait 13 years ... Automatic bids should be awarded by "football people" who know something about football, not be pencil-pushers at the NCAA. Let "The Committee" decide before the year starts which 8 conferences get automatic bids - "The Committee" is far from infallible - but it is better than making the Big South wait 13 years...UCA only has four years left (this was their probationary year). CCU was already D-I so they became eligible immediately. AQs are awarded yearly by "The Committee" and it's comprised of "football people" who know something about football, not pencil-pushers at the NCAA. If Campbell (or any other D-I football program) would've joined the Big South the conference would be AQ eligible after two years of play.

[rokamortis]

Because there's more to changing Divisions than just adding more scholarships to football (academic requirements, compliance structure). And don't mix the waiting period for a school to be eligible with the waiting period for an ineligible conference trying to qualify only by adding a school which has already has its built-in time lag. If CCU had gone to a different conference, or if the BS could lure a non-startup program they wouldn't have to wait so long.

Good point about the waiting period for a school vs a conference being eligible.

But about the waiting period and academics, compliance ... etc - I believe if a school can demonstrate that they are already compliant and have the academic standards - like PC - that they should be able to get a waiver. I have felt this way for over a year because of the problems with the Great West - good schools that seemt o be ahead of the game and are forced to wait out a ridiculously long mandatory waiting period.