Georgetown Prez "not supportive of moving to a scholarship program"

[ramMan]

From the Georgetown Voice (9/1/11):


Voice: The issue of scholarships in the Patriot League remains unresolved with Fordham’s continued presence in the conference. Where do you stand on the issue of football scholarships, and how do you see this issue affecting the football team and other athletic teams?

DeGioia: We compete in football in the Patriot League, and we joined the Patriot League because it was consistent with the way in which we want to conduct the football program, which is a non-scholarship program. There are three tiers of football. We’re non scholarship, the next tier is the Football Championship Series, 63 scholarships from my recollection, and then I think it’s 82, and 82 is the Bowl Championship Series. We’re the least-cost program that you can offer, and this has been an ongoing issue within the Patriot League. To date, we have sustained the commitment to non-scholarship, and Fordham has gone scholarship, but they’re not eligible for the championship within the Patriot League because they’re playing by a different set of assumptions. The Patriot League has worked for us in terms of providing a very good context for our football program. It’s been very competitive and it’s required the highest level of competition that we have ever played since the 1950s, and I’m very proud of the way our young men have represented us on our football field. I am not supportive of moving to a scholarship program. I don’t believe that fits the ethos and the culture of Georgetown, and I believe the way that the Patriot League is conducted is exactly the right place for us to be, and I’m hopeful that it will continue to be the best place for us to be, but I’m not supportive of moving to a scholarship program and I’m not supportive that Georgetown would follow the move that Fordham did and go to 63 scholarships. It’s just very expensive and I don’t think it’s commensurate in who we are and in our aspirations for our athletic program.


http://blog.georgetownvoice.com/2011/09/01/president-degioia-and-todd-olson-discuss-china-campus-plan-healy-pub-and-more/

[crusader11]

I don’t believe that fits the ethos and the culture of Georgetown

But admitting half the basketball team does fit the ethos?

[superman7515]

He isn't for finishing the stadium, why finish the team?

[Dane96]

What a piece of **** statement from an enlightened individual. SO.....what about all the rest of the ethos of scholarships with every other sport you sponsor.

Further, there are two levels of DI football...FCS and FBS. In FCS, you have three levels- partial scholly, scholly, and the grant-in-aid (financial). the guy doesn't even get this concept.

[JMUNJ08]

From the Georgetown Voice (9/1/11):


DeGioia: the next tier is the Football Championship Series, 63 scholarships from my recollection

Says everything right there. He doesn't even see themselves on the same level of the other FCS programs. Or, but definitely it, he has no clue about the football program except they are taking more money away from the well funded basketball team...

[Bogus Megapardus]

This is a remarkable statement. All of the other Patriot schools see themselves as being at the same level as all other FCS schools. Our funding formula relies on need-based grants rather than scholarships, but we aspire to, and do, compete at the same level. Even Lafayette President Dan Weiss, who notoriously came out publicly against scholarships, would never suggest that Lafayette competed at a "different level" than full-scholarship FCS teams.

I have been a strong supporter of Georgetown's participation in Patriot League football, but this statement by Dr. DeGioia really has to raise some eyebrows. Somebody had better clue him in that, regardless of the funding formula, the Patriot League fully expects all of its members to compete on a national level in FCS. I hope DeGioia isn't saying that he thinks that Georgetown somehow gets a pass.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't see anything particularly remarkable in this, as it follows a long-held institutional belief that Georgetown is better suited as a program recruited and funded along the lines of the Ivy League than the CAA. He didn't say he wants out of the Patriot League or Division I-AA, only that the Fordham approach doesn't appeal to him.

Georgetown doesn't have an ethos against athletic scholarships (@Crusader11, I don't hear you going after all the track athletes or soccer players being admitted under the wire) but football has long been a middle tier sport at Georgetown sitting between the fully funded teams (basketball, track, lacrosse, now soccer) and those with even less (tennis, swimming, baseball, softball). Without the ability to recoup scholarship expenses (as basketball can), where is the return on a full 63 grant program? You could charge $100 a ticket at the MSF for every game, students included, and that still wouldn't fund 25 men's scholarships a year. Is there huge untapped demand for alumni to see Georgetown aspire to play Montana or Youngstown State, assuming there is a place built to fit them?

On that level, it's a money issue. Georgetown doesn't view an extra $3 million a year in grant-based scholarships a good return for its investment, and it doesn't stand to make much of it back playing in the mess that is the MSF. The PL presidents also see much of the same--they see Fordham drawing the same crowds as Bucknell and spending twice as much to do so, asking "what's in it for us, again?"

Jack DeGioia is the only PL president that actually played the game, and at Georgetown, no less. He is a past president of the Big East Conference, was invited to Mark Emmert's NCAA summit last month, and knows the PL's balance sheets better than any of us do. He's also been a student, grad student, professor, and administrator since 1975 that has seen first hand the struggles Georgetown has dealt with in getting recruits admitted in football, and the program's inability to compete financially against other scholarship teams. He's also seen what a poorly designed scholarship plan can do to destroy athletic programs like Hofstra and Northeastern.

That having been said, he's also incredibly supportive of the Georgetown program when others have been less so and attends as many games as he can (although at the MSF, there's even not a box seat for administrators to sit at). Georgetown doesn't have the credit line to build the MSF on debt financing--he is entirely dependent for donor gifts just as every other athletic project is, including the Top 25 basketball teams (men's and women's) which don't even have a practice facility, or the Top 25 track teams (men's and women's) which don't even have a track of their own.

Asking a Board of Directors to get behind a multi-million initiative that his head coach hasn't pushed for, that his athletic director hasn't pushed for, and frankly, the fan base hasn't pushed for is unrealistic. For a University that lost hundreds of millions of dollars before DeGioia took over, advancing a plan in a bad economy with little public support and almost minimal ROI isn't good business sense for any CEO.

Of course, if someone wanted to make seven-figure gifts in that direction, he's not going to turn it down, either. Alumni have raised funds to fund women's soccer grants and a baseball grant here and there, and that's fine by him. Could Georgetown convert a few need based awards to scholarships? Maybe. But Georgetown itself doesn't want to be caught on the hook for a full 63 every year when the donors grow weary and the balance sheet doesn't have that kind of leverage.

As a fan once recounted on the HoyaTalk board, "Georgetown football just wants to play the teams in its fight song". That list is Yale, Navy, Cornell, Harvard, Holy Cross, and Princeton, not some combination of Towson, Old Dominion, JMU, Liberty, UMass and Delaware. Absent some major donors to change the equation, why would any college president commit to doing otherwise?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't disagree with anything you say, DFW. It is nevertheless irksome to read a PL president's view that the Patriot League plays at a level somewhere below the Football Championship Subdivision. Is Dr. DeGioia aware that the Patriot League sends a representative to the FCS playoffs every year?

Regardless of how Georgetown football is funded, it won't be playing any of the schools in its fight song unless it takes some level of responsibility for competing in Division I football. That responsibility can start at the top, with Dr. DeGioia's recognition that this is not 1977 and the Hoyas are not competing in Division III or against the club team from Manhattan College.

[Dane96]

I don't see anything particularly remarkable in this, as it follows a long-held institutional belief that Georgetown is better suited as a program recruited and funded along the lines of the Ivy League than the CAA. He didn't say he wants out of the Patriot League or Division I-AA, only that the Fordham approach doesn't appeal to him.

Georgetown doesn't have an ethos against athletic scholarships (@Crusader11, I don't hear you going after all the track athletes or soccer players being admitted under the wire) but football has long been a middle tier sport at Georgetown sitting between the fully funded teams (basketball, track, lacrosse, now soccer) and those with even less (tennis, swimming, baseball, softball). Without the ability to recoup scholarship expenses (as basketball can), where is the return on a full 63 grant program? You could charge $100 a ticket at the MSF for every game, students included, and that still wouldn't fund 25 men's scholarships a year. Is there huge untapped demand for alumni to see Georgetown aspire to play Montana or Youngstown State, assuming there is a place built to fit them?

On that level, it's a money issue. Georgetown doesn't view an extra $3 million a year in grant-based scholarships a good return for its investment, and it doesn't stand to make much of it back playing in the mess that is the MSF. The PL presidents also see much of the same--they see Fordham drawing the same crowds as Bucknell and spending twice as much to do so, asking "what's in it for us, again?"

Jack DeGioia is the only PL president that actually played the game, and at Georgetown, no less. He is a past president of the Big East Conference, was invited to Mark Emmert's NCAA summit last month, and knows the PL's balance sheets better than any of us do. He's also been a student, grad student, professor, and administrator since 1975 that has seen first hand the struggles Georgetown has dealt with in getting recruits admitted in football, and the program's inability to compete financially against other scholarship teams. He's also seen what a poorly designed scholarship plan can do to destroy athletic programs like Hofstra and Northeastern.

That having been said, he's also incredibly supportive of the Georgetown program when others have been less so and attends as many games as he can (although at the MSF, there's even not a box seat for administrators to sit at). Georgetown doesn't have the credit line to build the MSF on debt financing--he is entirely dependent for donor gifts just as every other athletic project is, including the Top 25 basketball teams (men's and women's) which don't even have a practice facility, or the Top 25 track teams (men's and women's) which don't even have a track of their own.

Asking a Board of Directors to get behind a multi-million initiative that his head coach hasn't pushed for, that his athletic director hasn't pushed for, and frankly, the fan base hasn't pushed for is unrealistic. For a University that lost hundreds of millions of dollars before DeGioia took over, advancing a plan in a bad economy with little public support and almost minimal ROI isn't good business sense for any CEO.

Of course, if someone wanted to make seven-figure gifts in that direction, he's not going to turn it down, either. Alumni have raised funds to fund women's soccer grants and a baseball grant here and there, and that's fine by him. Could Georgetown convert a few need based awards to scholarships? Maybe. But Georgetown itself doesn't want to be caught on the hook for a full 63 every year when the donors grow weary and the balance sheet doesn't have that kind of leverage.

As a fan once recounted on the HoyaTalk board, "Georgetown football just wants to play the teams in its fight song". That list is Yale, Navy, Cornell, Harvard, Holy Cross, and Princeton, not some combination of Towson, Old Dominion, JMU, Liberty, UMass and Delaware. Absent some major donors to change the equation, why would any college president commit to doing otherwise?

I take exception to some of your commentary, though the general tone I get. Please do not take this as an attack on you as that is not my intent. My intent is to point out that the G'Town. President clearly is discussing the PFL model and not the IVY or PL model...or to be more precise, the unspoken IVY model and the wishes of some PL team's model.

1. There was no great issue with Northeastern and Hofstra as far as funding scholarships. NU has the money...it was a stadium issue and the issue of hopefully truly upgrading hoops. If Menino allowed the stadium (one co-sponsored by the Revs...and one not) to be built...we would be seeing NU football now. At Hofstra, it has been absolutely proven that the President was simply anti-football. His comments have been totally beaten down by financial balance statements and the fact he wants to start a medical school (words from his own mouth). THAT SAID, FOOTBALL RARELY MAKES MONEY AT ANY LEVEL...INCLUDING FBS. So, while I can agree with his comments about the funding aspect, I disagree with your comments that we saw "a poorly designed scholarship plan can do to destroy athletic programs like Hofstra and Northeastern." It is simply not a fact. And this comes from someone who understands the harsh realities of scholarship costs because it isn't like Albany is exactly flush with cash.

2. Where is the ability to recoup scholarships in other sports that G'Town gives out rides for? It is limited at best. Again, there are a handful of schools that have a cash-flow positive enterprise known as college sports. It is monetary loser for the most part, just like theater, just like having a campus center, etc. The costs are not really going to be recouped...even with "paying students".

Now, I do very much agree with your statement that G'Town doesn't view scholarship football as a good ROI. That's fine...and that's honest. But, with the exception of hoops, neither the rest of the overall G'Town athletic program can't be considered a good ROI. Let me ask you this: What if the Big East reorganizes and the Big East cash cow is reduced in any new league G'Town finds itself in, if indeed that turns out to be the case. Will the scholarship football argument be replaced with a hoops argument? Semantically, yes...it would have to if the ROI isn't there. However, giving out 26 hoop rides (13 men, 13 women) is much less than 112 (56 football schollys to be a counter school and the mirrored woman's scholly's)...so I can see how it is different from a pure accounting standpoint. But, you wont be competing for the same large dollars as you would in a conference where you reap SOME rewards from the football teams being in the conference. It will be more akin to the MVC or the WCC.

3. Finally, I am dumbounded by the perpetual myth of the "IVY Model". Fact is, the IVY'S find the money to get kids in. Heck, DIII's do the same. I was recruited, among others, by NYU, Haverford, Rochester, Buffalo, Albany and Princeton...and only with Buffalo and Albany would my parents have to float more than 10-20% of the boat. My parents were not rich...but they most certainly were NOT eligible for the amount of money we were receiving. The IVY Model is in fact a more financially rewarding model for student-athletes than the view taken by your President. Call it merit-aid, grant-in-aid, holy crap how did we find this in aid, or what not....kids are getting cashish to front the costs to attend IVY's irrespective of the parents finances. That is a clear opposite of the G'Town model.

[carney2]

I agree - no real news and nothing remarkable. The downer for me is the implication that if scholarships are approved Georgetown will not be on board. What then? Permanent doormat status? Move to the PFL? Drop football?

Nothing new here, but the headcount firms up ever so slightly:

For scholarships: Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh

Against scholarships: Georgetown, Lafayette

No definitive word/public position: Bucknell, Holy Cross

On the surface, only one of these two without public positions needs to vote "yes." What, however, is the result if Fordham withdraws before the vote is taken?

[Dane96]

IMHO, if the PL loses a competitive edge on the field in the playoffs (a big if)...you may see a more PFL oriented model unless the schools are ok with the status quo. Though, a PFL model is also "status quo" if indeed the PL is only giving it out financial aid based on finances and academic, and not on "hidden performance."

The obvious "holy batman" scenario is that Colgate, Lehigh and Fordham walk and form a new league with the outliers of Albany, Stony Brook, UNH, MAINE, URI, CCSU, Monmouth, etc.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't disagree with anything you say, DFW. It is nevertheless irksome to read a PL president's view that the Patriot League plays at a level somewhere below the Football Championship Subdivision. Is Dr. DeGioia aware that the Patriot League sends a representative to the FCS playoffs every year?

I read it that the "we" refers to Georgetown and he was not speaking for the PL as a whole. When you're 28-81 in the last 10 seasons, playoffs are not top of mind for any college president.

For those that like to question Georgetown's interest in PL football, this quote: "I believe the way that the Patriot League as conducted is exactly the right place for us to be, and I’m hopeful that it will continue to be the best place for us to be, but I’m not supportive of moving to a scholarship program and I’m not supportive that Georgetown would follow the move that Fordham did." Short of the PL mandating 63 scholarships, that sounds like an affirmation.


I agree - no real news and nothing remarkable. The downer for me is the implication that if scholarships are approved Georgetown will not be on board. What then? Permanent doormat status? Move to the PFL? Drop football?

My guess is that the three fallbacks are, in order, 1) PL doormat, 2) NEC (Hoyas could still compete with Duquesne, St. Francis, etc. in the lower tier of that conference) or c) I-AA independent with more Ivies and whoever else is around. The Pioneer doesn't interest Georgetown officials.


What, however, is the result if Fordham withdraws before the vote is taken?

Then the presidents can say, "Vote? What vote is that?"

[Dane96]

Couldn't go to the NEC...we will be at 40 rides at the start of 2013...and my understanding is that ONLY Sacred Heart will be at below 30 at that time, though that is subject to change.

[DFW HOYA]

Couldn't go to the NEC...we will be at 40 rides at the start of 2013...and my understanding is that ONLY Sacred Heart will be at below 30 at that time, though that is subject to change.

You're telling me that SFPA's budget of $1.4 million (slightly less than Georgetown's $1.43 million) will cover 40 scholarships? How about Duquesne? ($1.52 million, just $98,000 more than Georgetown)? At $42K a year in Loretto and at the Bluff, that's a minimium $1.68 million before operating expenses and coaches salaries. Are both schools really bumping up its budget in the next year?

Also, I'm not sure the NEC has actually mandated a minimum spending level. Certainly, the PL hasn't.

[Dane96]

Not to start a pissing war...not my intention...but...you said you could compete with Duquense, St. Francis, Etc.

1. Duquense has stated they have every intention to get up to the full allotment. They are going to be at 30 this year.
2. St. Francis is currently at 20+ rides (not sure what the last report is).

Also remember, as private schools...they don't have to report everything to the OPE.

If G'Town truly isn't giving money other than meritorious aid, then that 20+ ride level would equate to more than G'Town gives if, for argument sake, you average a 45k a year ride.

So, I think competing on regular basis with Duquense or any team in the top half of the league with regards to spending would be tough. Of course it could be done...but it would be tough.

Competeing with the bottom half would be more plausible if, in fact, those schools hang around the 20 ride level.

[UAalum72]

No, the NEC does not have a minimum scholarship level.

The Duquesne 2011 Prospectus says "18 ...Number of scholarships Duquesne granted in February of 2008 in conjunction with the school’s move to the Northeast Conference as an associate football-playing member. The 2011 recruiting class is the fourth to receive scholarships. DU’s scholarship total for football currently rests at 28."


and this was before they picked up the Ohio State transfer, so D96's count of 30 may well be more current.

[RichH2]

Agree with Carney. While language a bit imprecise , opinion is not a shock.xconfusedx Refer to thread 757 post 11903 on this subject.xbangx Will Hoya prestige prevent PL from instituting any form of merit aid? Can PL compete if ltd to need aid if enf give max ## of equivalencies?

I would note for those interested that football STARTS TONIGHT. What say we table this until December?xnodx

[Dane96]

HELL YES! FOOZBALL TONIGHT!

[Go...gate]

From the Georgetown Voice (9/1/11):


Voice: The issue of scholarships in the Patriot League remains unresolved with Fordham’s continued presence in the conference. Where do you stand on the issue of football scholarships, and how do you see this issue affecting the football team and other athletic teams?

DeGioia: We compete in football in the Patriot League, and we joined the Patriot League because it was consistent with the way in which we want to conduct the football program, which is a non-scholarship program. There are three tiers of football. We’re non scholarship, the next tier is the Football Championship Series, 63 scholarships from my recollection, and then I think it’s 82, and 82 is the Bowl Championship Series. We’re the least-cost program that you can offer, and this has been an ongoing issue within the Patriot League. To date, we have sustained the commitment to non-scholarship, and Fordham has gone scholarship, but they’re not eligible for the championship within the Patriot League because they’re playing by a different set of assumptions. The Patriot League has worked for us in terms of providing a very good context for our football program. It’s been very competitive and it’s required the highest level of competition that we have ever played since the 1950s, and I’m very proud of the way our young men have represented us on our football field. I am not supportive of moving to a scholarship program. I don’t believe that fits the ethos and the culture of Georgetown, and I believe the way that the Patriot League is conducted is exactly the right place for us to be, and I’m hopeful that it will continue to be the best place for us to be, but I’m not supportive of moving to a scholarship program and I’m not supportive that Georgetown would follow the move that Fordham did and go to 63 scholarships. It’s just very expensive and I don’t think it’s commensurate in who we are and in our aspirations for our athletic program.


http://blog.georgetownvoice.com/2011/09/01/president-degioia-and-todd-olson-discuss-china-campus-plan-healy-pub-and-more/

As the Presidents supposedly rule in the Patriot League, Dr. DeGioia's relative lack of understanding of the "levels" of Division I and FCS football is troubling.

[aceinthehole]

Duquesne currently offers 20+ football scholarships. They are still ramping up to 30, and it doesn't sound like they will offer the NEC max of 40 in the immediate future - but the commitment to scholarships and winning is there.


Duquesne president: Football will improve
By Jerry DiPaola, PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Friday, May 28, 2010

Read more: Duquesne president: Football will improve - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review Duquesne President Charles J. Dougherty said back-to-back losing football seasons have been difficult to accept, but the sacrifice of four other varsity sports may help speed the team's recovery.

"We are still getting used to not winning," Dougherty said of 3-8 and 3-7 records in 2008 and '09, the school's first years in the Northeast Conference. "It is a bit jarring to be losing football games, but when we get the right number of scholarships back, we will return to our winning ways."

Dougherty admitted that eliminating men's swimming and golf, baseball and wrestling was painful for students and their families. However, the eventual savings of more than $1 million will help other programs, he said. The process may take as long as four years while the university honors existing scholarships.

The reduction from 20 to 16 sports puts Duquesne more in line with fellow Atlantic 10 schools such Xavier and Dayton (16 each) and St. Bonaventure (14), he said.

"We just had way too many sports," Dougherty said.

...

He added that Duquesne eventually will be able to increase the number of football scholarships it can offer from 20 to 30, helping it to compete in the NEC. The conference plans to allow 40 scholarships per school next year.

"We have a plan to increase (scholarships) regularly, and this will allow us to actually accelerate it," he said. "We know we have to expand our commitment to football."


Read more: Duquesne president: Football will improve - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_683391.html#ixzz1WkwZSVSU

[aceinthehole]

Saint Francis (Pa) is also offering 28+ football scholarships.


If PSU can pay Indiana State big bucks, why not St. Francis?

SFU doesn't offer enough scholarships to count as bowl-eligible win for Lions

August 31, 2011
By Cory Giger, [email protected] , The Altoona Mirror

Penn State is shelling out $450,000 to play a Division I-AA opponent, so in light of that, some people wonder why PSU doesn't throw nearby St. Francis a bone with a huge payday by scheduling a game with the Red Flash.

That kind of windfall would do wonders for the athletic budget at St. Francis, which has an undergraduate enrollment of about 1,800.

Penn State, however, would gain nothing from it -- literally.

A game against St. Francis would not even count as a victory for the Nittany Lions, at least not in terms of helping them become bowl eligible.

"It would count on their record, but at the end of the year if they ended up 6-6, then the win over us wouldn't count," said St. Francis athletic director Bob Krimmel, who came to the school seven years ago after spending 32 years at Penn State, including 17 as the Lady Lions' swimming coach (1981-98).

The Red Flash are a I-AA team and play in the Northeast Conference, but they only offer 28 1/2 football scholarships. The small conference, which used to not offer any football scholarships, has a limit of 36 this season.

NCAA rules limit I-AA teams to 63 scholarships, and larger schools reach or come close to that number.

For a Division I-A team to be able to count a victory against a I-AA opponent toward its bowl eligibility, the school must offer at least 90 percent of the 63-scholarship limit (or 56.7).
http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/553143/If-PSU-can-pay-Indiana-State-big-bucks--why-not-St--Francis-.html?nav=746

[Bogus Megapardus]

It's not a necessarily a matter of committing to athletic-based scholarships. The Patriot League can succeed without them if the need-based funding is kept at full equivalency levels. I will support the PL whether or not scholarships are approved.

The real problem here is Dr. DeGioia's supposition that the Patriot League competes at a level below that of the Football Championship Subdivision. That is wholly unacceptable.

I want scholarships in the PL, but I'm fine if we continue on without them. However I'm not going to let it slide as an excuse not to fund the program at the same financial level as would be the case in any other full-scholarship FCS program.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I can accept Mr. DeGioia's opinion on this matter, even if I disagree.

I can even let slide the idea that he doesn't have a firm grasp of the difference between the tiers of Division I Football, which confuse a lot of smart people.

But there's this one sentence that irks me more than any other:


From the Georgetown Voice (9/1/11):

I am not supportive of moving to a scholarship program. I don’t believe that fits the ethos and the culture of Georgetown.

http://blog.georgetownvoice.com/2011/09/01/president-degioia-and-todd-olson-discuss-china-campus-plan-healy-pub-and-more/

He didn't just say he was against them and they were expensive. He said that football scholarships - in and of themselves - don't fit in with the character and culture of Georgetown. It's as if he believes that any kid on scholarship for athletics is somehow against the culture of the institution.

Either he feels that all scholarshipped kids don't fit in with the "ethos" of Georgetown - or that it's just specific to football players. Either way, it's an awful thing to be saying about the very students that attend your school. At the bare minimum it is incredibly hypocritical.

[Go...gate]

It's not a necessarily a matter of committing to athletic-based scholarships. The Patriot League can succeed without them if the need-based funding is kept at full equivalency levels. I will support the PL whether or not scholarships are approved.

The real problem here is Dr. DeGioia's supposition that the Patriot League competes at a level below that of the Football Championship Subdivision. That is wholly unacceptable.

I want scholarships in the PL, but I'm fine if we continue on without them. However I'm not going to let it slide as an excuse not to fund the program at the same financial level as would be the case in any other full-scholarship FCS program.

I agree with you, but cannot help wondering if some other PL prexies are as badly uninformed.

[Dane96]

Duquesne currently offers 20+ football scholarships. They are still ramping up to 30, and it doesn't sound like they will offer the NEC max of 40 in the immediate future - but the commitment to scholarships and winning is there.




Read more: Duquesne president: Football will improve - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_683391.html#ixzz1WkwZSVSU

Appreciate you're commentary here to help prove a point. That said, I can absolutely say with confidence they are at 30 with the Ohio State transfer.

[Jackman]

I had similar thoughts, LFN. I had no problem with anything he was saying until the word "ethos" came out. These snobby little universities which grant athletic scholarships in most other sports but change their tune with football as a matter of protecting "institutional character" are complete frauds. It's the scale of a college football enterprise they (understandably) can't deal with, not the principle. Don't tell me about the negative impact on Georgetown's culture. That bull feces was insulting enough coming from the Ivies, nevermind a happy member of the most big time college basketball conference in the country. Maybe Florida should explain that the reason they don't have a full scholarship ski team because they have an institutional culture of preserving the environment and natural mountain terrain, and not because they're in no damn position to have such a team.

[aceinthehole]

Appreciate you're commentary here to help prove a point. That said, I can absolutely say with confidence they are at 30 with the Ohio State transfer.

I agree. I just wanted to post some quotes from the media.

From what I've heard EVERY NEC team is offering at least 20+ football schoalrships. Some schools, like CCSU, UA, and Monmouth are at the NEC max (38-40), while others (Sacred Heart and Wagner) are rumored to be closer to 20. Bottom line most of the league is offering 25-35 scholarships right now.

[Dane96]

Exactly, which is why I don't understand how others could promulgate a theory that it is a given that any team that does not offer equivalencies could compete in the league by showing up.

IMHO, we have less of a divide in our league than in the PL. While not what some teams want (capped scholly numbers), the reality is having 40 kids on rides vs. 15-20 grant-in-aids is a big difference. It seems that G-Town is at that latter level. Could they compete...absofrickenlutely. Would it be a constant level of success? Unlikely.

[Dane96]

I had similar thoughts, LFN. I had no problem with anything he was saying until the word "ethos" came out. These snobby little universities which grant athletic scholarships in most other sports but change their tune with football as a matter of protecting "institutional character" are complete frauds. It's the scale of a college football enterprise they (understandably) can't deal with, not the principle. Don't tell me about the negative impact on Georgetown's culture. That bull feces was insulting enough coming from the Ivies, nevermind a happy member of the most big time college basketball conference in the country. Maybe Florida should explain that the reason they don't have a full scholarship ski team because they have an institutional culture of preserving the environment and natural mountain terrain, and not because they're in no damn position to have such a team.

Exactly my earlier point, in a different cloth. My original point, before we digressed into whether G'Town could compete with no scholarships in the NEC, was that a scholarship is a scholarship is a scholarship, whichever sport it comes in. Sure, I have no problem with a President saying it is a money issue (heck, that is why UA is not playing in 20k seat stadium we wanted).

However, I have a major problem with tossing aside one sports scholarships vs. another and, when you compare yourselves to IVY's from a giving standpoint when it is abundently clear to anyone who has been around, recruited or played at an IVY that they are pretty much giving out full-rides in a different name.

That said, there seems to be some serious non-movement from him that could cause a major PL ripple effect regarding scholarship football now that he has gone public.

[dgtw]

How are scholarships a big money issue? I understand room, board and books cost a lot. But how is cost of tuition a factor? If tuition is $20,000 a year, the school really doesn't lose anything if they let 63 people go to class for free.

[Dane96]

Well, two things:

1. It would actually be 126 rides if you include the mirrored women's rides. In addition, you are paying medical insurance, room and board, and ancillaries. It isn't just the tuition cost.

2. Theoretically, it takes up seat space that would otherwise go to "paying" students who contribute to the monetary pool.

I think the second argument is somewhat skewed, though it does have a legit factual basis.

[dgtw]

I agree #2 is a bit skewed. Its not like all 126 will be in the same class at the same time. A professor can't handle one of two extra bodies in the lecture hall? I understand some classes would have strict size limits for some reason, but that would be in higher level courses.

A good point on the extra women's scholarships.

[carney2]

It's the scale of a college football enterprise they (understandably) can't deal with, not the principle.

There ya go. This nail has been hit squarely on the head. Football is, and always has been, the 2,000 pound gorilla. It's the single athletic issue that the faculty and other true academics cannot stomach. Everything else, including big time basketball at Georgetown, is a minor nuisance, a trifle. And the football gorilla has a nasty twin when you throw Title IX implications on the pile.

[Dane96]

Winner, Winner Chicken-Dinner.

[401ks]

Appreciate you're commentary here to help prove a point. That said, I can absolutely say with confidence they are at 30 with the Ohio State transfer.

The official line from the Duquesne Athletic Department is that the Dukes currently offer 28 scholarships.

I am unfortunately able to add with 100% certainty that a block of additional scholarship money was recently made available when one of the scholarship players on the 2010 Duquesne roster was forced to leave the team this summer because of a serious medical issue. :(

[ngineer]

He's basically admitted that G'town should be heading to the Pioneer (since the IL will never expand). Either that or go back down to D-III and become a rival of Catholic and JHU/

[MplsBison]

From the Georgetown Voice (9/1/11):


Voice: The issue of scholarships in the Patriot League remains unresolved with Fordham’s continued presence in the conference. Where do you stand on the issue of football scholarships, and how do you see this issue affecting the football team and other athletic teams?

DeGioia: We compete in football in the Patriot League, and we joined the Patriot League because it was consistent with the way in which we want to conduct the football program, which is a non-scholarship program. There are three tiers of football. We’re non scholarship, the next tier is the Football Championship Series, 63 scholarships from my recollection, and then I think it’s 82, and 82 is the Bowl Championship Series. We’re the least-cost program that you can offer, and this has been an ongoing issue within the Patriot League. To date, we have sustained the commitment to non-scholarship, and Fordham has gone scholarship, but they’re not eligible for the championship within the Patriot League because they’re playing by a different set of assumptions. The Patriot League has worked for us in terms of providing a very good context for our football program. It’s been very competitive and it’s required the highest level of competition that we have ever played since the 1950s, and I’m very proud of the way our young men have represented us on our football field. I am not supportive of moving to a scholarship program. I don’t believe that fits the ethos and the culture of Georgetown, and I believe the way that the Patriot League is conducted is exactly the right place for us to be, and I’m hopeful that it will continue to be the best place for us to be, but I’m not supportive of moving to a scholarship program and I’m not supportive that Georgetown would follow the move that Fordham did and go to 63 scholarships. It’s just very expensive and I don’t think it’s commensurate in who we are and in our aspirations for our athletic program.


http://blog.georgetownvoice.com/2011/09/01/president-degioia-and-todd-olson-discuss-china-campus-plan-healy-pub-and-more/

Liar.

Need-based scholarships are given by every Patriot League football program to players.

Money is given out on a need-based formula rather than by the coach's decision, that's the only difference between a player at Lehigh that gets a full ride and a player at Villanova that gets a full ride.


The only true non-scholarship leagues in the FCS are the Ivy and Pioneer.

About time that Georgetown puts its money where its mouth is and moves to the Pioneer!!!!

[MplsBison]

Well, two things:

1. It would actually be 126 rides if you include the mirrored women's rides. In addition, you are paying medical insurance, room and board, and ancillaries. It isn't just the tuition cost.

2. Theoretically, it takes up seat space that would otherwise go to "paying" students who contribute to the monetary pool.

I think the second argument is somewhat skewed, though it does have a legit factual basis.

Title IX can be met by proving that the university meets the interest and abilities of the female student body. No need to add women's scholarships.

Done and done.

[Pard4Life]

The Ivy is only non-scholarship, in theory. Their threshold for aid is so low that practically everyone, athlete and non, is given a scholarship.

[Dane96]

Title IX can be met by proving that the university meets the interest and abilities of the female student body. No need to add women's scholarships.

Done and done.

Thank you for helping me in an area that I am versed in, and worked on, from a professional legal standpoint.

No, that's not exactly how it works. It's like the race-neutral aspect of the Federal Disadvantaged Business Enterprise; it is very difficult to prove you meet the "needs and interests and abilities of the female student body." A school who has successfully done this is Tennessee with it's female only ADept (the men have their own side). However, that is not the normal path that schools work off of.

Now go back to your hamster hole.

Oh...and the Ivy's are NOT non-scholarship.

[DFW HOYA]

Title IX can be met by proving that the university meets the interest and abilities of the female student body. No need to add women's scholarships. Done and done.

You realize that using prong three of Title IX is the least likely way for a school to achieve federal compliance. Or maybe you don't.

Then again, Title IX has nothing to do with the piling-on this thread has turned into, simply because a lot of Lafayette fans are reading into quotes that have little or no no context to anything in the never ending PL scholarship discussion, outside how Georgetown issues need-based aid and its reluctance to adopt Fordham's approach, one which would more than double its athletic scholarship budget. About the only clause in the quote that people have not seen fit to question to date is "It’s just very expensive"... but I suspect one of you will come along and argue that a full ride at Georgetown is not very expensive after all.

Georgetown is an associate member in good standing in the PL. Unless you can find a majority of PL presidents willing to expel Georgetown for cause (presumably, the "cause" is issuing the need-based aid the PL was founded on), it isn't going anywhere. Maybe I can summarize all this in a blog post after the opener with Davidson, but for now, let's focus on the games.

[Dane96]

Nice one Hoya-- think we posted this at EXACTLY the same time...with the same thought process.

That said, personally I wish G'Town well...and I can understand a large-majority of the argument your President makes but for the fact that he is selectively arguing his points.

[Go...gate]

I agree - no real news and nothing remarkable. The downer for me is the implication that if scholarships are approved Georgetown will not be on board. What then? Permanent doormat status? Move to the PFL? Drop football?

Nothing new here, but the headcount firms up ever so slightly:

For scholarships: Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh

Against scholarships: Georgetown, Lafayette

No definitive word/public position: Bucknell, Holy Cross

On the surface, only one of these two without public positions needs to vote "yes." What, however, is the result if Fordham withdraws before the vote is taken?

My concern is that what DeGioia and Weiss think (and/or inadvertently leaked) is what has some of us concerned: That the PL, NEC, Ivy and Pioneer will accept status as a permanent "underclass" in FCS.

[MplsBison]

The Ivy is only non-scholarship, in theory. Their threshold for aid is so low that practically everyone, athlete and non, is given a scholarship.

Hence why they're non-scholarship. Every student enrolled in an Ivy school is eligible to recieve the same academic scholarships that are awarded to football players. That's the definition of non-scholarship/DIII.

The definition of athletic scholarship is that only athletes are eligible to receive the particular scholarship - no one else in the school can get it. The only difference between Patriot and the rest of scholarship FCS is simply the way the money is divided up between the players. In the rest of FCS, if a player works hard, has the talent and the coach thinks he deserves a full ride, he gets one. In the Patriot League, the captain of the team might only get a quarter ride because of his parent's income.

[MplsBison]

Thank you for helping me in an area that I am versed in, and worked on, from a professional legal standpoint.

No, that's not exactly how it works. It's like the race-neutral aspect of the Federal Disadvantaged Business Enterprise; it is very difficult to prove you meet the "needs and interests and abilities of the female student body." A school who has successfully done this is Tennessee with it's female only ADept (the men have their own side). However, that is not the normal path that schools work off of.

Now go back to your hamster hole.

Oh...and the Ivy's are NOT non-scholarship.

Thank you for confirming that I am exactly correct when I say that any university can successfully defend itself against a title IX lawsuit by proving that the existing women's varsity sports already meet the interest and abilities of the female student body.

No new women's scholarships *have* to ever be added because of title IX.

[Dane96]

Hence why they're non-scholarship. Every student enrolled in an Ivy school is eligible to recieve the same academic scholarships that are awarded to football players. That's the definition of non-scholarship/DIII.

The definition of athletic scholarship is that only athletes are eligible to receive the particular scholarship - no one else in the school can get it. The only difference between Patriot and the rest of scholarship FCS is simply the way the money is divided up between the players. In the rest of FCS, if a player works hard, has the talent and the coach thinks he deserves a full ride, he gets one. In the Patriot League, the captain of the team might only get a quarter ride because of his parent's income.

True that...but the point missed is they will find extra money for you above and beyond that of the regular student.

That, is what he was trying to confirm.

[Sader87]

This league sucks...there, I said it...again.

[RichH2]

See Dane we have a mini version of MplsBison in Sader87. Luvkily for us he only has one fixation about Cross football and he's not half wrong with his frustration with PL leaders.

[MplsBison]

True that...but the point missed is they will find extra money for you above and beyond that of the regular student.

That, is what he was trying to confirm.

Not saying things aren't done outside the intentions of the system as it's set up.

Just that the system is set up with a certain intention, and that being in the Ivy League - a player will not receive any money that any other student couldn't have gotten. And that's why the Ivy League is a non-scholarship league while the Patriot League is not.

[MplsBison]

Ok...we will accept your expertise.

RICHARD HEAD...if you offer ALL MALE SCHOLARSHIPS and NO FEMALE SCHOLARSHIPS....but build the women their own facilities that are better than the men's facilities, you don't meet the standards.

Again, go back to your troll hole. I thought we banished you there for awhile. I believe you and ScreamingEagle are xlovex .

Who said all men's and none women's? I was talking about adding women's above and beyond what was already being given.

Still - if the authors of title IX didn't really believe that meeting the interests and abilities of the females on campus was good enough, they wouldn't have written it into the law. It's there for a reason.

[Bogus Megapardus]

See Dane we have a mini version of MplsBison in Sader87. Luvkily for us he only has one fixation about Cross football and he's not half wrong with his frustration with PL leaders.

Sader87 is amusing and entertaining. MplsBison is psychotic. Huge difference.

[Go...gate]

This league sucks...there, I said it...again.

Oh, no - you have been listening to those Bobby Vinton records again! : )

(seriously, good luck to HC this season. The opener seems to bode well for the rest of the schedule)