Army/Navy and BCS/PCS

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Something I was pondering yesterday.

Could Army and Navy, despite their occasional ranking in the Top 25 and appearances in minor bowls as independents, consider putting themselves in the mix for the PCS instead of the BCS?

Previous opposition to Army and Navy playing in the ranks of I-AA based simply of blustery comments that "we don't want to play in no minor league... we will never downgrade football". But with the BCS/PCS distinction now only - and everyone being ostensibly "D-I" with no separation - that argument holds less water than ever.

Could this distinction change be a huge push in the direction of having Army and Navy join PL football, possibly with Grambling/Southern-type postseason exceptions?

Realisitically, Army and Navy have no shot at a true BCS bowl - they will always be relegated to the Aloha or San Diego bowls of the world. Why not I-AA? And why not the playoffs?

[colgate13]

Why not I-AA? And why not the playoffs?
Forget bowls. There are two reasons. First, it's about the regular season. The service academies play 'big time' schools. Navy in particular. Notre Dame is the first that comes to mind. Stanford, Maryland, BC, Rutgers, Northwestern. Sure there are plenty of Rices, Dukes, Toledos, etc. on there too, but they are not 'downgrading' their regular season and trading Notre Dame for Colgate or BC for Lehigh. Army to a lesser extent, but what one does, the other will do. Which brings me to my second point.

As long as Air Force stays 'BCS' eligible, Army and Navy will too. I can't see them having 7 PL games, the Army/Navy game, and being happy with 3 OOC games against the biggest programs they can find.

I'd love to see them as full PL members in all sports, but that ain't happening as it currently stands. It would take YEARS of improving the image of the 'PCS'.

[DFW HOYA]

No chance. Zero. The prospect of even a minor bowl and the exposure of CBS broadcast means 1000 times more to the academies than the propsect of playing at Christy Mathewson Memorial Field, or even the as-yet unnamed Multi-Sport Field.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is a case to be made here.

1) The CBS broadcast of Army/Navy will happen whether Army/Navy are BCS or PCS. Before, Army and Navy did not want to make their programs "I-AA" due to the stigma of being perceived as "minor league".

2) Nothing is precluding Army and Navy from playing Air Force and Notre Dame as an OOC game every year. Again, BCS or PCS is supposed to make no difference.

3) Rutgers/Northwestern, Lehigh/Colgate. Is there really that big a drop in competitiveness? I don't think Rutgers OR Northwestern are THAT much better.

4) Air Force, as part of the WAC, theoretically is "bowl eligible", but basically can only do so by going undefeated while the power conferences beat each other up. True, Utah getting in a BCS bowl a couple of years ago gives a dream to WAC schools of national championships, but how realisitic is that?

[catbob]

Northwestern was pretty damn good last year.

[colgate13]

There is a case to be made here.

1) The CBS broadcast of Army/Navy will happen whether Army/Navy are BCS or PCS. Before, Army and Navy did not want to make their programs "I-AA" due to the stigma of being perceived as "minor league".
I don't think it's a strong case, but I see where you are coming from. I for one do not think there will be a huge perception difference from I-AA to PCS.


2) Nothing is precluding Army and Navy from playing Air Force and Notre Dame as an OOC game every year. Again, BCS or PCS is supposed to make no difference.
First, won't there still be a difference in how many wins against PCS/I-AA teams can count towards BCS eligiblity? More importantly though, while nothing will preclude it, Notre Dame isn't going to schedule down like that. They have, year in and year out, an amazingly tough schedule. And it will still be seen as scheduling down - heck, it already IS seen as scheduling down for them! This could be the final excuse that gets them off the schedule.



3) Rutgers/Northwestern, Lehigh/Colgate. Is there really that big a drop in competitiveness? I don't think Rutgers OR Northwestern are THAT much better.
While I like your thinking, unfortunately, yes, there is a big difference IMO. It also has to do with fan perception. Will 35,000 come out to see Navy play Lehigh like they did Stanford? Even Kent State had 30,000. Going to the PL would likely mean cutting their attendance by 50-60%.


4) Air Force, as part of the WAC, theoretically is "bowl eligible", but basically can only do so by going undefeated while the power conferences beat each other up. True, Utah getting in a BCS bowl a couple of years ago gives a dream to WAC schools of national championships, but how realisitic is that?
How realistic is any BCS pipe dream? Yet many schools are following it.

[ngineer]

I don't think it's a strong case, but I see where you are coming from. I for one do not think there will be a huge perception difference from I-AA to PCS.


First, won't there still be a difference in how many wins against PCS/I-AA teams can count towards BCS eligiblity? More importantly though, while nothing will preclude it, Notre Dame isn't going to schedule down like that. They have, year in and year out, an amazingly tough schedule. And it will still be seen as scheduling down - heck, it already IS seen as scheduling down for them! This could be the final excuse that gets them off the schedule.



While I like your thinking, unfortunately, yes, there is a big difference IMO. It also has to do with fan perception. Will 35,000 come out to see Navy play Lehigh like they did Stanford? Even Kent State had 30,000. Going to the PL would likely mean cutting their attendance by 50-60%.


How realistic is any BCS pipe dream? Yet many schools are following it.

Actually, that many will show up at Navy or Army. The last time Lehigh played Navy in Annapolis (and a 24-9 Lehigh win) attendance was in the mid-30,000 and in 1980 (a 24-24 tie with Army) attendance at West Point was over 40,000 (although I do think it was homecoming).
That all being said, as much as I like to think Army and Navy joining the PL for football can happen, I don't expect to see it...:(

[89Hen]

No chance. Zero. The prospect of even a minor bowl and the exposure of CBS broadcast means 1000 times more to the academies
Agreed. That and the fact that Navy can go out and get Notre Dame, Stanford, etc.. to play them for national exposure. They can basically have their cake and eat it too. They get 1 or 2 I-AA's to come to Annapolis every year and schedule enough I-A cupcakes (Rice, ECU, EMU, Temple...) to get enough wins to be bowl eligible. They're on NATIONAL TV for the ND game and the Army game, have 6 home games, get to go to a bowl if they take care of business.... no way they give that up for playoffs.

[Marcus Garvey]

Actually, that many will show up at Navy or Army. The last time Lehigh played Navy in Annapolis (and a 24-9 Lehigh win) attendance was in the mid-30,000 and in 1980 (a 24-24 tie with Army) attendance at West Point was over 40,000 (although I do think it was homecoming).
That all being said, as much as I like to think Army and Navy joining the PL for football can happen, I don't expect to see it...:(

Yes, but who else did they play that year? They played a schedule that included Holy Cross and Harvard (both still I-A), Cal, Wazzu, Notre Dame and Pitt (who finished the season #2 in both polls). Playing one game against a I-AA team, was no biggie. By playing a majority of their games against the PL, they will "cheapen" their brand image for football. That will be the perception, no matter how rosy I-AA fans want to paint it. Once cheapened, attendance will suffer. See Yale for an excellent example.

Joining the PL for football buys Army and Navy nothing. It will cost them a lot however. If they're perceived as I-AA, bye-bye ratings for the Army/Navy game. When that happens, CBS will drop them and they'll wind up on Jefferson Pilot or something.

[colgate13]

f they're perceived as I-AA, bye-bye ratings for the Army/Navy game. When that happens, CBS will drop them and they'll wind up on Jefferson Pilot or something.

Exactly. I'm not sure on this, but where did Harvard/Yale used to be televised? It's now on WGN out of Chicago. National, yes. CBS/ABC/NBC/FOX/ESPN? Nope.

[colgate13]

Actually, that many will show up at Navy or Army. The last time Lehigh played Navy in Annapolis (and a 24-9 Lehigh win) attendance was in the mid-30,000 and in 1980 (a 24-24 tie with Army) attendance at West Point was over 40,000 (although I do think it was homecoming).

I think both of those numbers are an anomoly, based on being almost or over 2 decades ago and that one I-AA on a I-A schedule fans stomach. More, and I think attendance drops.

Anyone have attendance numbers from the 1995 Army/Lehigh game?

[Pard4Life]

Even those minor bowl games that both Army and Navy attend each year (when they win enough games) nets them a solid chunk of change. Why lose it? You have to shell out money to host a I-AA playoff game.. so it's lose money vs. earn money.. um..

The PCS will sill be viewed as the 'minor leagues' as long as some major conferences or teams don't leave the BCS system. Army and Navy won't leave BCS if other major teams do not.

Army and Navy are independent. They can schedule whomever they please. As an opposing AD, doesn't Army/Navy look attractive on your schedule asthetically, and likely financially? Being an attractive tickets for I-A solidifies their worth in I-A. Army/Navy are an essential commodity... and both programs know that.

[Pard4Life]

I think both of those numbers are an anomoly, based on being almost or over 2 decades ago and that one I-AA on a I-A schedule fans stomach. More, and I think attendance drops.

Anyone have attendance numbers from the 1995 Army/Lehigh game?

If Army was not good that year the numbers might be misleading.

[colgate13]

This might help: in 2002 Army lost to Holy Cross in a home opener. Attendance was 28,000.

I stand by my original statement. A schedule full of Holy Cross, Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and that attendance figure is half of that within a decade. In some ways, didn't something similar happen to many Ivy schools when they went I-AA?

[carney2]

One thing that no one has yet mentioned is that these two schools are controlled by one game (Army - Navy) more than any two schools in the country. More than Michigan and Ohio State; more than California and Stanford; more than Yale and Harvard; and more than those Pennsylvania schools that will be meeting for the 142nd time this season. Having said that, it should also be recognized that TV controls the Army - Navy game. It's traditional and it gets some reasonable ratings, BUT the barons of television are not going to risk replacing a late season battle of top 10 teams or a significant game in one of the big I-A conferences to show Army vs. Navy. They want it right where it is - deep in December, somewhere around week 2 or 3 of the I-AA playoffs and not in contention with any other big I-A games. These two service academies are not going to pass up the big bucks* and the exposure that the game gets, or otherwise jeopardize their historic matchup just to engage in the playoffs.

*Have you seen the ticket prices for this thing? I did a web search and discovered that the range for one ticket is $125 to $795 for the 2006 game. I've never been. Always wanted to go. Don't think so.

[GAD]

The Army/Navy game is played in early Dec. do think they would be willing to change the date of that game?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Joining the PL for football buys Army and Navy nothing. It will cost them a lot however. If they're perceived as I-AA, bye-bye ratings for the Army/Navy game.

Joining the PL saves Army/Navy money in a big way through travel costs. Furthermore, they don't sacrifice "scholarships" since they don't have any.

The only question is will they be perceived as a I-AA if that's the case, and with the BCS/PCS change that is not at all clear whether the "invisible line" will still exist.

There's nothing to say that Notre Dame and Air Force can't show up on the schedule whether Army/Navy are PCS or BCS. There's nothing to say that Army/Navy can't compete for the Commander in Chief's trophy.

Finally, let's compare Grambling St./Southern and Army/Navy ratings, eh? I'd be willing to be they are comparable at worst.

I'm really seeing the same tired arguments for why Army/Navy are not currently in the PL. I beleive everyone is missing the new realities that exist here in a BCS/PCS world. You have to admit the new BCS/PCS realities pretty much dismantle the "arguments" for keeping Army/Navy in the BCS system unless the "invisible line" between BCS and PCS still exists.

[colgate13]

Joining the PL saves Army/Navy money in a big way through travel costs.
I never thought Army or Navy was too concerned about costs. They have hefty financial support from a captive population, no?


There's nothing to say that Notre Dame and Air Force can't show up on the schedule whether Army/Navy are PCS or BCS.
Notre Dame and to a lesser extent Air Force can have something to say about it. When's the last time a I-AA appeared on the Irish schedule?


Finally, let's compare Grambling St./Southern and Army/Navy ratings, eh? I'd be willing to be they are comparable at worst.
I think that's a small piece of the puzzle.


I'm really seeing the same tired arguments for why Army/Navy are not currently in the PL. I beleive everyone is missing the new realities that exist here in a BCS/PCS world. You have to admit the new BCS/PCS realities pretty much dismantle the "arguments" for keeping Army/Navy in the BCS system unless the "invisible line" between BCS and PCS still exists.
They're not tired if they haven't been proved wrong. I don't think there are new realities that exist yet, and I am doubtful that they ever will exist. BCS teams will have 85 scholarships, 12 games, bowls. PCS teams will have 63 (maybe) scholarships, 11 games, playoffs. I don't see that as an invisible line. In fact, it's pretty darn clear. The only way IMO for the line to be erased is if PCS teams schedule and beat BCS teams with regularity. And with the scholarship/financial differences in place, I don't think that's happening.

The sports viewing public isn't going to turn on the TV this fall and think: "Gee, look at these 120+ new Division I football teams! Division I football just got so much bigger!" They're going to draw distinctions between BCS and PCS pretty quickly.

We as a society love to do two things, both of which come into play here. 1 - we love to catergorize and put things in neat little places we can define. It makes us comfortable. 2 - we love to feel exclusive and better than someone else. Looking down on lower classes is a national pastime.

So it won't take a nanosecond for the "we're all Division I" cheer to boil down to, no, there's BCS/PCS and for the BCS contingent to say, yea, we're better than you.

[TxSt02]

There is a case to be made here.

1) The CBS broadcast of Army/Navy will happen whether Army/Navy are BCS or PCS. Before, Army and Navy did not want to make their programs "I-AA" due to the stigma of being perceived as "minor league".

2) Nothing is precluding Army and Navy from playing Air Force and Notre Dame as an OOC game every year. Again, BCS or PCS is supposed to make no difference.

3) Rutgers/Northwestern, Lehigh/Colgate. Is there really that big a drop in competitiveness? I don't think Rutgers OR Northwestern are THAT much better.

4) Air Force, as part of the WAC, theoretically is "bowl eligible", but basically can only do so by going undefeated while the power conferences beat each other up. True, Utah getting in a BCS bowl a couple of years ago gives a dream to WAC schools of national championships, but how realisitic is that?

Air Force is in the Mountain West Conference...

[TxSt02]

I doubt b/c I think the following will happen:

The Big East will go after either Navy or Army as football playing members only... They are at 8 all sports members and 8 that dont play football giving them a total of 16 teams... They would love to add Memphis right now but that throws of the total number of teams... Adding an additional team as a football only team will bring that total to 9 and provide an ease in scheduling... If they want to have a championship game then they would deff. at both Army and Navy and find two additional school perhaps in Memphis and UCF or ECU...

There have also been talks about the Big East spliting into one basketball playing conference (meaning a conference including the Big East current only bball schools competing in all sports) and one all sport conference that plays all sports... if this were the case then this Navy/Army scenario would probably be a moot point...

All Sports:
1 West Virginia
2 Lousiville
3 Rutgers
4 South Florida
5 Pitt
6 UConn
7 Cinci
8 'Cuse
----------
9 Navy/Army
10 Navy/Army (if Big East wants to make scheduling easier with 12 games now...)

All Sports minus football:
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Notre Dame
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova

Even though Army's CUSA "experiment" was bad they might do the Big East move if Navy does it as well and the Big East throws money at them...

This would also be a moot point if Notre Dame joined in football and if G'town and 'Nova moved up... I am sure the Big East is hoping for those three teams to do this...

[TxSt02]

The sports viewing public isn't going to turn on the TV this fall and think: "Gee, look at these 120+ new Division I football teams! Division I football just got so much bigger!" They're going to draw distinctions between BCS and PCS pretty quickly.

We as a society love to do two things, both of which come into play here. 1 - we love to catergorize and put things in neat little places we can define. It makes us comfortable. 2 - we love to feel exclusive and better than someone else. Looking down on lower classes is a national pastime.

So it won't take a nanosecond for the "we're all Division I" cheer to boil down to, no, there's BCS/PCS and for the BCS contingent to say, yea, we're better than you.

So very very true!

[bluehenbillk]

Having gone to a couple UD/Navy games & looking forward to going to a couple more in the near future I can tell you that at least from the view in Annapolis, 1-AA is not an option. It's probably the complete opposite, Navy fans have tasted success, winning 2 bowl games in a row. Paul Johnson has created a fervor through the alums & community down there, they all believe it's only a matter of time before they knock off Notre Dame.

They wouldn't get killed attendance wise but I think the academy would suffer a backlash from their alumni base if they even entertained the option.

To make it clear, it ain't gonna happen.

[kardplayer]

The other thing missing here is that Army and Navy play a national schedule not just in the fact that their opponents are "elite" but because they are in fact national.

Taking Army on the road to play Rice, gives the local bases an opportunity to see the academy play. Same holds true for Navy.

By moving to a Northeeast-based conference like the Patriot League, they lose out. I have to believe that there just aren't as many military folk close to Hamilton, NY or Lewisburg, PA as there are to Houston, Tulsa, Memphis, etc. I'm not sure if that disqualifies the Big East as well, but certainly the combination of the PCS/Patriot League AND the regional focus make it a non-starter IMHO.

[bobcatalum05]

Whats the real point in the PCS, if the lower confrences like the Sun Belt, WAC, C-USA, Even MWC, dont become PCS. It will be the same old DI-AA with the same perception and same problems.

Opinions, will any of these confrences join the PCS?

[TxSt02]

Whats the real point in the PCS, if the lower confrences like the Sun Belt, WAC, C-USA, Even MWC, dont become PCS. It will be the same old DI-AA with the same perception and same problems.

Opinions, will any of these confrences join the PCS?

I heard about them wanting to do this some 5-6 years ago... several people I spoke to about this used the example of NASCAR to illustrate...

You have the Winston Cup (now Nextel) and the Busch Cup... to outsiders ,like me, it is suppose to help market both leagues with the lesser league recieving more benefit... but as most of you NASCAR fans can agree with is that the Busch Cup will never be big if you dont have the "Little Es" and Gordons of the world competing...