LFN: Are Maine and UNH Crying for Help?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/08/are-unh-and-maine-crying-for-help.html


By any measure, times have not been great for the remaining "Northeast Four" of the old Yankee Conference.

Now competing in the Colonial Athletic Association, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and UMass were the final teams remaining north of the Big Apple when Northeastern and Hofstra decided to fold their football programs within a week of each other.

Since that fateful day a year and a half ago, Rhode Island announced their intention to join the limited scholarship NEC in 2012, and this summer UMass announced their intention to join the MAC conference in FBS, where they'll attempt to kindle a football rivalry loosely based on the Temple/UMass basketball showdowns in the days of John "Darth Vader" Calipari and John "Knock Your Kids in the Mouth" Chaney.

That has left New Hampshire athletic director Marty Scarano (pictured), and Maine athletic director Steve Abbott, feeling more and more isolated in football.

And in the past few days, both appeared to be calling for help.

Are the presidents of the Patriot League listening?

Well? Are they?

[superman7515]

I would say UNH certainly isn't considering they keep saying they are committed to the CAA and aren't looking for anything else. It's only on fan forums that everyone is trying to push them out the door into some other conference of convenience.

[DFW HOYA]

Patriot League expansion is sounding a lot like the Multi-Sport Facility: years of promising talk with a lot of weeds growing up around it instead.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Patriot League expansion is sounding a lot like the Multi-Sport Facility: years of promising talk with a lot of weeds growing up around it instead.

Also: lots of interest about it on blogs, message boards and "fan chatter", but crickets chirping when it comes to the presidents that could actually make it happen. xlolx

[DFW HOYA]

Also: lots of interest about it on blogs, message boards and "fan chatter", but crickets chirping when it comes to the presidents that could actually make it happen. xlolx

So which one happens first?

[NHwildEcat]

UNH isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future...

Maine is more likely to make a move- although, I really hope they don't. I love having UNH and Maine playing in the same conferences in all sports, and would love to see that continue forever, really!

If Maine makes a move its going to be to drop scholly's and play in the NEC. The PL presidents IMO, look down on the public schools as not fitting their mold, which is sad because it should all be about everyone trying to keep northeast football alive. I would hate for in 20 years there to only be the Ivies...it would be sad. Some schools, conferenes, need to take steps to look beyond their usual scope and figure out a solution that benefits all the wonderful schools in the northeast.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

...it should all be about everyone trying to keep northeast football alive. I would hate for in 20 years there to only be the Ivies...it would be sad. Some schools, conferenes, need to take steps to look beyond their usual scope and figure out a solution that benefits all the wonderful schools in the northeast.

Amen. I so completely agree about this.

[ccd494]

Hey, if the PL is willing to accept Maine as is, with 63 scholarships and a 78% admit rate, great. I don't see that ever happening.

[appfan2008]

Maine will probably head on but why should UNH? They are one of the best teams in the best leagues... I know travel is probably tough but it is what it is...

[Dane96]

I personally think that Maine, UNH, Stony Brook, Albany, Fordham...will make a push for a CAA-North...or some new E. Coast league. It makes way too much sense...and frankly, Albany is NOT building our stadium, though "modest" at 6,000 starting seats, to stay at the status quo.

Basically....we need one or two schools to make it happen...and if Maine is serious about staying at 63 rides this is likely the best scenario because I just don't see the PL as a fit...and I also don't see it surviving this fractured internal debate they seem to be having.

[NHwildEcat]

I personally think that Maine, UNH, Stony Brook, Albany, Fordham...will make a push for a CAA-North...or some new E. Coast league. It makes way too much sense...and frankly, Albany is NOT building our stadium, though "modest" at 6,000 starting seats, to stay at the status quo.

Basically....we need one or two schools to make it happen...and if Maine is serious about staying at 63 rides this is likely the best scenario because I just don't see the PL as a fit...and I also don't see it surviving this fractured internal debate they seem to be having.

This would be my prefered choice...add one more school to this list and you have a new CAA North. Or...find 3 more teams and have our own newly formed conference...might be able to pry URI back from the NEC if somthing like this were to happen...

[Dane96]

I'd like to add that Central Ct. would be a choice school for that league. They are expanding their place from my understanding, they recruit well...and they are committed to football. The real issue is the NEC...would CCSU leave (I think they should) to go play all-Sport AE and then this new league of football.

I think they would jump.

[GannonFan]

By any measure, times have not been great for the remaining "Northeast Four" of the old Yankee Conference.

I don't know, playoff appearances would seem to be a good measure and UNH is riding a CAA-high 7 straight years of making the playoffs. That would seem to be a positive, no?

[UNHWILDCATS05]

Just think about this logically for a minute. If UNH's travel budget it $160k (4 away flights at 40k) and they are going to get around $300k to play Toledo (They made $300k to play Ball State - no reason to think they wouldn't get around the same for Toledo)... then they still come out in the black. Why in the world would they leave the best conference in the FCS, which has led directly to their success through increased national exposure and recruiting, to retreat to the Northeast where they would have limited exposure, (as much as people don't want to admit it) less competition, and a limited recruiting base. And if they reduced scholarships they would also lose out on the FBS revenue. Just makes Zero sense for UNH and would be the beginning of the end. For Maine, you can see it making more sense because their travel costs are so much higher. They would need to have guarantees > $400k for them to even break even.

[DFW HOYA]

I'd like to add that Central Ct. would be a choice school for that league. They are expanding their place from my understanding, they recruit well...and they are committed to football. The real issue is the NEC...would CCSU leave (I think they should) to go play all-Sport AE and then this new league of football.

I think they would jump.

A new league would be very much troubling for the PL. People like to reiterate how Colgate would never, never leave the PL in football but the Red Raiders seem to chafe a little more than the others over the scholarship issue and the travel, esp. southward. A northern league with no schools south of Stony Brook and the intransigence of the PL presidents would be a shot across the bow at the viability of the PL moving forward.

[Dane96]

I don't know, playoff appearances would seem to be a good measure and UNH is riding a CAA-high 7 straight years of making the playoffs. That would seem to be a positive, no?

Agreed, and I dont understand how UMASS moving up is also not a positive (since he mentioned URI, UMASS, UNH and Maine). Also, San Diego State is receiving it's highest payout...it is not the highest payout ever made.

And I highly doubt that the figure for Toledo is 5 figures or very low 6 as the article indicates.

[NHwildEcat]

Just think about this logically for a minute. If UNH's travel budget it $160k (4 away flights at 40k) and they are going to get around $300k to play Toledo (They made $300k to play Ball State - no reason to think they wouldn't get around the same for Toledo)... then they still come out in the black. Why in the world would they leave the best conference in the FCS, which has led directly to their success through increased national exposure and recruiting, to retreat to the Northeast where they would have limited exposure, (as much as people don't want to admit it) less competition, and a limited recruiting base. And if they reduced scholarships they would also lose out on the FBS revenue. Just makes Zero sense for UNH and would be the beginning of the end. For Maine, you can see it making more sense because their travel costs are so much higher. They would need to have guarantees > $400k for them to even break even.

Completely agree...but at some point in time something is going t have to give. Our facilities are garbage and the schools has their hands tied by the state in respect to incoming funds to help maintain a high level of athletic support. Maybe by staying in the CAA we can continue to recruit at the higher level that we have for the past 8 years, but it may becoming increasing harder when we show prospective student-atheltes are crappy facilities. Then again maybe we will get recruits who have been shunned by our conference mates, and want to play in the conference no matter what- which would be a benefit.

My only hope is that we stay proactive in this matter, because I don't want to see the day come when we are left out in the cold because we can't deal with the CAA and everyone else went off to form their own conference.

[dgtw]

Are Toledo and Ball State the best UNH can do for FBS games? Have they played tougher (i.e. higher paying) teams in the past?

I'm not putting much stock into any rumors concerning anybody changing leagues. Having read dozens of message borad posts and blogs from people who have "inside sources" about conference realignment, I'm not believing anything until it actually happens.

[NHwildEcat]

Are Toledo and Ball State the best UNH can do for FBS games? Have they played tougher (i.e. higher paying) teams in the past?

I'm not putting much stock into any rumors concerning anybody changing leagues. Having read dozens of message borad posts and blogs from people who have "inside sources" about conference realignment, I'm not believing anything until it actually happens.

Well UNH played Pitt last season. They tend to schedule opponents that they feel they can play with...no good comes from getting smoked on ESPN2...

[jmufan]

Maine would leave way before UNH ever did. The way Maine is talking, it sounds like they could be out of the CAA by 2013. I understand bring in more northern schools, but would that really strengthen the CAA or weaken its RPI? And is the CAA wanting full members or are they still okay with affiliate membership? Don't know, but I really don't see the CAA going north anytime soon unless they see a real benefit from it.

[henfan]

Also: lots of interest about it on blogs, message boards and "fan chatter", but crickets chirping when it comes to the presidents that could actually make it happen. xlolx

Of course the UNH president came from UD, so it's unlikely he's going to consider de-emphasizing FB by moving out of the best conference in the FCS into the PL or NEC. The cost of 2 extra flights per year isn't going to break UNH, especially so long as they can justify flying several non-rev sport teams to UMBC each season and as long as they continue to fill Cowell Stadium with interested fans.

No worries JMU fan. CAA FB has already demonstrated that they are not looking to add any school that is not already a member of the CAA.

[UNHFootballAlum]

Are Toledo and Ball State the best UNH can do for FBS games? Have they played tougher (i.e. higher paying) teams in the past?

I'm not putting much stock into any rumors concerning anybody changing leagues. Having read dozens of message borad posts and blogs from people who have "inside sources" about conference realignment, I'm not believing anything until it actually happens.

Last year UNH played Pitt. I do not know what the payout was for that game. I think that even though the payouts are important, Coach Mac and the Athletic Administration believes that they would want their players healthy for league games and thus may not seek to play upper tier BCS teams in order to get a bigger payday

[dgtw]

I can see both sides. They could play Penn State and make the big bucks but get their butt kicked. Or they could play a low level FBS team for a smaller check but not get too banged up and even have a chance to pull an upset, which would be a huge feather in their cap for recruiting.

[superman7515]

I can see both sides. They could play Penn State and make the big bucks but get their butt kicked. Or they could play a low level FBS team for a smaller check but not get too banged up and even have a chance to pull an upset, which would be a huge feather in their cap for recruiting.

They've beaten Rutgers (Big East), Northwestern (Big Ten), Marshall (C-USA), Army (Independent), and Ball State (MAC) since 2004. It's not really a chance, more like a habit at this point.

[URMite]

UNH vs FBS:
2004 Rutgers - Win
2005 None
2006 Northwestern - Win
2007 Marshall - Win
2008 Army - Win
2009 Ball St - Win
2010 Pitt - Loss

Sort of illustrates the point of winable games...

[URMite]

Damn, took too long verifying my memory...

[LUHawker]

LFN-

I know you continue to beat the drum for the PL to expand with somone, seemingly anyone in your opinion (you've touted, almost pleaded for, adding the following over the past 2-3 yrs: Duquense, Marist, Bryant, VMI, UNH, Maine) but I don't see why the PL needs to add Maine or UNH. With exception for Holy Cross, Maine and UNH, to a lesser degree, adds another long trip to most PL schools - is that really in the best interest of the league.

Once again, other than adding numbers, I don't believe adding UNH or Maine bolsters the PL. Distant locations, public universities, meaningfully lower admittance standards, ability to adhere to AI, fully-funded schollies, enrollment size are all inconsistent with the PL as a whole.

So we are back to the PL having few, if any, realistic expansion candidates. If (and I think when) scholarships are allowed, this situation may change. Until that point arrives, I think this is all WILD speculation, even if it is fun.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

UNH's record of winning FBS games is second to none over the last ten years. That much isn't in doubt. That humiliation of Steve Korte's Army team in 2008 was one of the all-time FBS beatdowns. It wasn't even close.

What is in doubt is the ability of UNH to afford the travel current schedule (three flights a year, but with local games vs. UMass and Rhody) and the potential future schedules (definite flights to Old Dominion and Georgia State, possible flights to VCU, possibility of no more Villanova bus trips). It might require UNH to take on two FBS games a year just to balance the books.

This is, of course, before any potential FCS playoff games - where the state of UNH's stadium dictates that UNH is basically on the road, flying often, unless they earn a seed. That further explodes the travel costs. Last year, the UNH team flew to Florida for round one - which was fantastic for the players and fans, but not so much for the bottom line of the athletic department.

Can you blame UNH and Maine for looking into cheaper, 63 football scholarship opportunities?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With exception for Holy Cross, Maine and UNH, to a lesser degree, adds another long trip to most PL schools - is that really in the best interest of the league. Once again, other than adding numbers, I don't believe adding UNH or Maine bolsters the PL.

Suppose Maine and UNH decide to fold their programs. Or, they reduce scholarships, and choose the expanding NEC. Or, they form a 63 scholarship New Yankee Conference and grab Fordham and Colgate to complete their vision.

Do any of these three scenarios bolster the PL?

[Bogus Megapardus]

And around we go again. It's just not going to happen. Maine and UNH would be nuts to join the PL and their fans and alums would have a fit. It didn't work with Towson and it won't work with Maine or UNH.

[aceinthehole]

LFN-

I know you continue to beat the drum for the PL to expand with somone, seemingly anyone in your opinion (you've touted, almost pleaded for, adding the following over the past 2-3 yrs: Duquense, Marist, Bryant, VMI, UNH, Maine) but I don't see why the PL needs to add Maine or UNH. With exception for Holy Cross, Maine and UNH, to a lesser degree, adds another long trip to most PL schools - is that really in the best interest of the league.

Once again, other than adding numbers, I don't believe adding UNH or Maine bolsters the PL. Distant locations, public universities, meaningfully lower admittance standards, ability to adhere to AI, fully-funded schollies, enrollment size are all inconsistent with the PL as a whole.

So we are back to the PL having few, if any, realistic expansion candidates. If (and I think when) scholarships are allowed, this situation may change. Until that point arrives, I think this is all WILD speculation, even if it is fun.

Exactly - well said from a PL fan. The PL has limited schoices now, and that doesn't inlclude UNH and Maine.

[UNH Fanboi]

UNH's record of winning FBS games is second to none over the last ten years. That much isn't in doubt. That humiliation of Steve Korte's Army team in 2008 was one of the all-time FBS beatdowns. It wasn't even close.

What is in doubt is the ability of UNH to afford the travel current schedule (three flights a year, but with local games vs. UMass and Rhody) and the potential future schedules (definite flights to Old Dominion and Georgia State, possible flights to VCU, possibility of no more Villanova bus trips). It might require UNH to take on two FBS games a year just to balance the books.

This is, of course, before any potential FCS playoff games - where the state of UNH's stadium dictates that UNH is basically on the road, flying often, unless they earn a seed. That further explodes the travel costs. Last year, the UNH team flew to Florida for round one - which was fantastic for the players and fans, but not so much for the bottom line of the athletic department.

Can you blame UNH and Maine for looking into cheaper, 63 football scholarship opportunities?

LFN, the problem with this article, as well as most of the far-fetched articles that you've written about Patriot League expansion is that you fail to think like a president/trustee/administrator at the schools you are discussing. I have seen zero evidence to indicate that the dinosaurs that run the PL have any inclination to go fully scholly, eliminate the AI and lower themselves by associating with public schools like UNH and Maine. If they had any such inclination, they wouldn't have put the PL on the brink of dissolution punting on the scholarship issue.

Also, the NCAA pays for playoff travel costs. I'm shocked you didn't know that already.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And around we go again. It's just not going to happen. Maine and UNH would be nuts to join the PL and their fans and alums would have a fit. It didn't work with Towson and it won't work with Maine or UNH.

There is a crucial difference between mid-90s Towson and UNH and Maine today. Towson had a multitude of options in regards to football conference membership. Maine and UNH do not, which is why their fans wouldn't have a "fit" if they had to join the PL. When the survival of Northeast FCS football is at stake, there's no room for being offended or hurt.

[Mattymc727]

I am a strong advocate of having two FBS games per year for the next few years. If we have to fly for an out of conference game, why not make money and play FBS? I think they should try to do this until something works out on the FCS level. Maine should do the same.

I realise that means UNH might be taking on 2 losses. But this team is good enough and has the depth to be able to win 6 or 7 games a season in this conference and with 2 FBS games. We would still get very strong consideration for the playoffs if we were 6-5 with 2 FBS games while playing in the CAA.

[Dane96]

Maine would leave way before UNH ever did. The way Maine is talking, it sounds like they could be out of the CAA by 2013. I understand bring in more northern schools, but would that really strengthen the CAA or weaken its RPI? And is the CAA wanting full members or are they still okay with affiliate membership? Don't know, but I really don't see the CAA going north anytime soon unless they see a real benefit from it.

Well considering SBU is in the pre-season Top 15...and Albany is in the Top 30-35...I don't think they would weaken the league terribly...but they would make UNH and Maine very happy.

[Dane96]

Of course the UNH president came from UD, so it's unlikely he's going to consider de-emphasizing FB by moving out of the best conference in the FCS into the PL or NEC. The cost of 2 extra flights per year isn't going to break UNH, especially so long as they can justify flying several non-rev sport teams to UMBC each season and as long as they continue to fill Cowell Stadium with interested fans.

No worries JMU fan. CAA FB has already demonstrated that they are not looking to add any school that is not already a member of the CAA.

Really, how have they demonstrated that?xeyebrowx

[Dane96]

There is a crucial difference between mid-90s Towson and UNH and Maine today. Towson had a multitude of options in regards to football conference membership. Maine and UNH do not, which is why their fans wouldn't have a "fit" if they had to join the PL. When the survival of Northeast FCS football is at stake, there's no room for being offended or hurt.

Oh bull****. Enough already.

If UNH and Maine really wanted to hammer AE football home, if they weren't comfortable in the CAA...they would flat out pull old guard on Boston U at this point. While BU has cache...BU and Maine do as well. And frankly, Vermont doesn't want to see Maine or Vermont upset. You would easily get a block of Vermont, Albany, UNH, Maine, Stony Brook and likely Binghamton to pressure BU to relent on the AE football issue. THE AE has a spot for all-sport team. BOOM...you have CCSU who has gradually increased it's academic profile and stature among AE fans and admins (the most impt group).

So...you then have Albany, UNH, SBU, MAINE, CCSU. Fordham joins up because they can stay A-Ten in everything else. Chances are...URI would ramp back up to a contained league like that. If not, I would bet Monmouth would seriously consider ramping up their scholarship level to join the league. I would gather you could get Duquense in on this as well.

Point: UNH and MAINE are crying to the CAA, if anyone, to look North to expand. They are most certainly not discussing these things publicly to get into the Patriot League because unless scholarships are on the table and the AI is checked off as a must...it's a moot point.

AE football is happening, IMHO, or some new league way before UNH and Maine would be in the PL...unless, of course, the PL moves to scholly football. That changes everything.

[Fordham]

Wow - been away. So much to catch up on. Might as well start here.

Orono to the Bronx is approx 8 hours by bus. Would Maine bus that? If not, how much do they save by leaving he CAA? If so, what is their cut off time for flights?

[Dane96]

Yes, Maine would bus that. They bus to Albany and it is about 6 1/2 to 7 hours.

[Seawolf97]

Wow - been away. So much to catch up on. Might as well start here.

Orono to the Bronx is approx 8 hours by bus. Would Maine bus that? If not, how much do they save by leaving he CAA? If so, what is their cut off time for flights?

I know they bus to StonyBrook for hoops and baseball as we also take a long ride to Maine several times a year. Like most AE teams using bus rides is not unusual for conference games but quite the norm. I think part of the solution is playing two FBS games . That helps balance the budget somewhat. We started doing that this season and from what I have heard will continue that type of scheduling for the future.

[Brad82]

They had a new AE (or similar) FB conference formed,but Hofstra and N-eastern dropping football scuttled it.

[Dane96]

Not true.

Boston University scuttled it. Sad, but very true.

NU and Hofstra leaving football behind came POST-BU douchiness.

[Dane96]

I know they bus to StonyBrook for hoops and baseball as we also take a long ride to Maine several times a year. Like most AE teams using bus rides is not unusual for conference games but quite the norm. I think part of the solution is playing two FBS games . That helps balance the budget somewhat. We started doing that this season and from what I have heard will continue that type of scheduling for the future.

Your point is actually a great solution. That said, the underlying problem is if they lose two FBS games...they are very behind the 8-ball for an at-large.

Ultimate Catch-22.

[NHwildEcat]

I would think that even given the current situation in college football in the northeast that UNH would still be hesitant at this point of moving from the CAA to the AE. The strength of schedule would diminish, although they would finally have all sports under one umbrella instead of all spread out.

Any way we can get BU kicked out? Wishful thinking!

[Dane96]

Sadly, BU's AD is up for Commish of the AE.

[NHwildEcat]

Sadly, BU's AD is up for Commish of the AE.

...so how would it work if the rest of the conference wanted to get football up and running? Majority vote? How many schools need to be on board?

[cmaxwellgsu]

Just think about this logically for a minute. If UNH's travel budget it $160k (4 away flights at 40k) and they are going to get around $300k to play Toledo (They made $300k to play Ball State - no reason to think they wouldn't get around the same for Toledo)... then they still come out in the black. Why in the world would they leave the best conference in the FCS, which has led directly to their success through increased national exposure and recruiting, to retreat to the Northeast where they would have limited exposure, (as much as people don't want to admit it) less competition, and a limited recruiting base. And if they reduced scholarships they would also lose out on the FBS revenue. Just makes Zero sense for UNH and would be the beginning of the end. For Maine, you can see it making more sense because their travel costs are so much higher. They would need to have guarantees > $400k for them to even break even.

This. I see the PL as a huge step down for UNH. Why would a big time program want to drop out of the spotlight? Y'all seem to have it worked out.

[Fordham]

Sounds like they could replace several flights per year with bus trips to Stony Brook, CCSU, Albany, Fordham, Bryant and keep their regular bus trips to UNH and URI. Add in 2 OOC v Holy Cross, Wagner, Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth or Yale and you can have all bus rides plus two FBS pay games.

Dream scenario for Maine certainly but there's at least hope v a downgrade.

Anyone know approx costs of bus v plane ride?

[Dane96]

...so how would it work if the rest of the conference wanted to get football up and running? Majority vote? How many schools need to be on board?

Not sure of the numbers...but from what I understand, you just need to pressure BU. The sunk AE football and Hockey. Even BC agreed to join up AE Hockey.

****ing travesty.

[Dane96]

Bus is nothing. UNH to anywhere...about 40k for a flight. You are prob talking a 38,000 savings if not more.

But, I am not an advocate of this nonsense that two extra trips on a plane would cause UNH football to look elsewhere...for now.

[DFW HOYA]

Anyone know approx costs of bus v plane ride?

An overnight bus ride, 800 miles = $4,000 + lodging
Commercial plane: ~$14-18,000 + charter to/from game and lodging
Charter plane: ~ $40,000 (saves hotel charges)

Places like Orono don't have scheduled commercial service, so that may not even be an option.

[Dane96]

DFW is correct, and for Maine...it's prob closer to the Charter Plane. Otherwise they would have to drive to Portland at best....or Manchester. UNH has the benefit of Manchester.

That said, I am not so sure a flight is only 200-250 on a commercial plane these days considering your traveling party is probably in the 80-90 person range.

[MylesKnight]

Does anyone have an article or blog or post concerning BU and their blockage of an AEC Football League. I'd like to see more on the background of that if possible.

Cheers!

[Dane96]

No...nada...zip.

But you ask ANYONE...and I do mean ANYONE associated with an Athletic Dept. within the AE or at UMASS, UMASS Lowell, Boston College, Northeastern and Hofstra...you'd get the same response.

BU caused the first defection of the AE/CAA-4...and they killed the hockey/football league in round 2. They basically did not want to have hockey under the AE banner because they wanted an easy out of the league if the A-Ten or some other higher league came calling on them. If hockey was under the AE banner...they would be hard-pressed to find a reason to leave the all-sport league.

[henfan]

Really, how have they demonstrated that?xeyebrowx

Perhaps Judy Rose is in a position to answer that question.

Since the start of CAA FB, how many non-CAA schools have been added? (Hint, it rhymes with hero.)

[henfan]

Not true.

Boston University scuttled it. Sad, but very true.

NU and Hofstra leaving football behind came POST-BU douchiness.

BU wasn't alone. Their dropping FB had little effective ultimately on the AEC landing FB or the departure of the former AEC4.

In truth and as hard as it still is to fathom, BU and UHart and UVm all scuttled the effort in the fall of 2000. At that time, the conference had a real chance to swallow up the CAA (minus UNCW) and create what would have been one of the strongest all sport mid-major conferences in the country. Unfortunately, schools like UMaine, UNH (who I believe had an AD in transition at the time) and NU allowed their futures to be dictated by two provincial minded midgets and a school with its sights set on the A-10.

Never is a long time but that is likely how long it will be before the AEC gets another shot at a FB league.

[Dane96]

Perhaps Judy Rose is in a position to answer that question.

Since the start of CAA FB, how many non-CAA schools have been added? (Hint, it rhymes with hero.)

No, I get that...fair enough. Doesn't mean it's not going to happen. That's the boundary of my point.

[Dane96]

BU wasn't alone. Their dropping FB had little effective ultimately on the AEC landing FB or the departure of the former AEC4.

In truth and as hard as it still is to fathom, BU and UHart and UVm all scuttled the effort in the fall of 2000. At that time, the conference had a real chance to swallow up the CAA (minus UNCW) and create what would have been one of the strongest all sport mid-major conferences in the country. Unfortunately, schools like UMaine, UNH (who I believe had an AD in transition at the time) and NU allowed their futures to be dictated by two provincial minded midgets and a school with its sights set on the A-10.

Never is a long time but that is likely how long it will be before the AEC gets another shot at a FB league.

We are talking 2008...not 2000.

That said, I agree 100% with the rest of your statement. And honestly, I think Hartford regrets its decision.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bus is nothing. UNH to anywhere...about 40k for a flight. You are prob talking a 38,000 savings if not more.

But, I am not an advocate of this nonsense that two extra trips on a plane would cause UNH football to look elsewhere...for now.

So then, why was it such a big deal that UNH's AD and Maine's AD made a big show of expenses, in two separate, individual articles, within a week's time? I'm not the smartest guy around, but I'm guessing here that the use of the words "unsustainable", "struggling to meet increasing targets" and "guarantee games are now a full-blown necessity" aren't being talked about because they want fans to feel great about the state of athletics.

You may live in a world where an extra $100,000 of budget on two contests isn't a big deal - half a million over five years. But I'll be damned if you throw the **** up the flagpole that two extra trips on a plane is "nonsense" or "no big deal for the athletics department". It is a big deal, and you know it.

[Dane96]

Guess you don't get how public institutions are run.

UALBANY and just about every other State school in the NE has made these comments.

Carry on.

[Go...gate]

LFN's idea is not far-fetched at all. Back in 1994, Colgate's then-president Neil Grabois, in an interview about the football program for the Colgate alumni publication, advised that the Patriot League presidents had held discussions with the New England A-10 schools (but stupidly, NOT Hofstra) about an expanded Patriot League in football with a unified need-based aid philosophy and an AI. Among the schools in the discusions were URI, UNH, BU, Northeastern and Maine. So the idea has been discussed over the years....

[Jackman]

Perhaps Judy Rose is in a position to answer that question.

Since the start of CAA FB, how many non-CAA schools have been added? (Hint, it rhymes with hero.)

That's a very short amount of time, and the CAA inherited a league that already had 12 members in it. When Northeastern dropped football, KC Keeler said in a radio interview that the most likely thing the CAA would do would be to replace them with Fordham or another New York team. Then Hofstra dropped the second bomb and the CAA scuttled the expansion plan. But if Keeler wasn't pulling things out of his butt, that's a strong indication that the CAA was planning on a football-only addition. They needed to move immediately to preserve the football schedule, and having 13 all-sports members would screw things up. Plus Fordham wouldn't be so quick to agree to leaving the A10 vs. only leaving the Patriot League.

[Dane96]

LFN's idea is not far-fetched at all. Back in 1994, Colgate's then-president Neil Grabois, in an interview about the football program for the Colgate alumni publication, advised that the Patriot League presidents had held discussions with the New England A-10 schools (but stupidly, NOT Hofstra) about an expanded Patriot League in football with a unified need-based aid philosophy and an AI. Among the schools in the discusions were URI, UNH, BU, Northeastern and Maine. So the idea has been discussed over the years....

And 17 years ago...I could still drink all night...sleep an hour...get up, and go to class/work with no problems. Can't do that today because things change.

The failed experiment with Towson (and the rejection of two other state schools, Albany and Stony Brook for the same reasons as were cited to be issues once Towson left) would give ample reason for the PL not to pursue publics and vice-versa. Now, if UNH was desperate, which they are not, maybe there would be some semblence to a match here. Let me make it simple. You have the following choices, forgetting the conjecture of PL switching to scholarships, which would change the landscape all together:

1. Join the PL without scholarships, with an increase of restrictions on academics, with a decrease in conference strength that is arguably not much better if at all with the NEC. Oh, and let's not forget that Attorney General of NH breathing potentially breathing down your neck when some New Hampshire kid gets rejected because of the AI.

2. Stick it out in the CAA...let the chips fall where they may as far as conference juggling (and you have to think there will be SOME restructuring of the CAA in the next 5 years)...and play a BCS program every year to make $$$$.

3. Reduce schollies, have no change to your academic profile and join an automatic bid league (NEC), but have your SOS weakened.

4. Band together with your AE mates, pressure Boston U to relent on football, grab 3-4 other schools...apply for an automatic bid waiver (or wait the four (or is it 5) years for a bid to be given to your new league, while hoping for at-large selection in what probably will be a 24 team playoff...almost guaranteeing this new league champ gets a bid)...oh and keep your admissions and scholarship profile the same.

I'd have no doubt the following order would be chosen by most of those affected: 2, 4 and a tie between 1 and 3.

Now, if the PL goes scholly...WHOLE NEW BALLGAME. But, if people think the AE can't get its **** together to form a league because of its well documented fractured base...why does one have to (or should as the article(s) by LFN suggest) take the leap that the PL will all of a suddent mend it's internal relationships to a level that would allow for seismic shift in philosophy?

This is not an anti-PL rant. In fact, maybe all of these statements by UNH/Maine will open the eyes of the PL...and that would be good for NE football.

[NHwildEcat]

So then, why was it such a big deal that UNH's AD and Maine's AD made a big show of expenses, in two separate, individual articles, within a week's time? I'm not the smartest guy around, but I'm guessing here that the use of the words "unsustainable", "struggling to meet increasing targets" and "guarantee games are now a full-blown necessity" aren't being talked about because they want fans to feel great about the state of athletics.

You may live in a world where an extra $100,000 of budget on two contests isn't a big deal - half a million over five years. But I'll be damned if you throw the **** up the flagpole that two extra trips on a plane is "nonsense" or "no big deal for the athletics department". It is a big deal, and you know it.

As far as the timing of the statements, I cannot speak for UMaine, but UNH releases their annuals state of athletics about this time every year. Last year's report was much the same. In some ways it may be a cry for help to both the CAA and PL...but it could also be seen as a cry to help from the people responsible for this pickle...the state senators and congressmen.

[henfan]

That's a very short amount of time, and the CAA inherited a league that already had 12 members in it...

But, again, the next time that CAA FB invites a non-CAA member to join will be the first. I'm not suggesting that it can't happen, just that there isn't any evidence that it's going to soon. In fact, I think the 'alleged' UNCC example proves my point. (Don't forget that any non-CAA school that wishes to join CAA FB must land the votes of schools like Drexel, UNCW, Mason & VCU, as well as the southern-most FB playing members of the CAA.)

If CAA FB was backed into a corner, HAD to expand and the only options available were non-CAA schools, they would be foolish NOT to consider it. That's what it may take to get non-CAA members into the FB league at this point. There really appears to be no sense of urgency for CAA FB to expand, especially with non-CAA members and with Mason & VCU staring at 2017 as a dropdead date for entrance into CAA FB.

[Bogus Megapardus]

LFN's idea is not far-fetched at all. Back in 1994, Colgate's then-president Neil Grabois, in an interview about the football program for the Colgate alumni publication, advised that the Patriot League presidents had held discussions with the New England A-10 schools (but stupidly, NOT Hofstra) about an expanded Patriot League in football with a unified need-based aid philosophy and an AI. Among the schools in the discusions were URI, UNH, BU, Northeastern and Maine. So the idea has been discussed over the years....

Compare Colgate's position in 1997, as reflected by Neil Grabois, to its present position. Grabois makes Dan Weiss seem almost progressive.

http://www4.colgate.edu/scene/jan1997/compete.html

I guess the lesson is to avoid spur-of-the-moment reactions. Things change over time. Grabois is a Swarthmore grad, BTW, and chaired the department of mathematical sciences at Williams. Just sayin' . . . .

[Fordham]

An overnight bus ride, 800 miles = $4,000 + lodging
Commercial plane: ~$14-18,000 + charter to/from game and lodging
Charter plane: ~ $40,000 (saves hotel charges)

Places like Orono don't have scheduled commercial service, so that may not even be an option.

Thanks, although I would think you'd still have the hotel costs since I doubt they want to get a plane and back on gameday (sleep on the plane, maybe?). So it looks like adding a second FBS pay game/year could cover the $200 - $240K of 5 to 6 flights/year. I don't follow the CAA's yearly schedules well enough to know if they're already doing this but is it possible for them to throw UM and UNH an extra home game/year through a rotation with the southern schools?

Side question since it now impacts our program - what does a team net from one of these pay games assuming an ~ $350K payout? Are there any significant add'l costs above and beyond transportation? Just curious about nets.

[LUHawker]

Suppose Maine and UNH decide to fold their programs. Or, they reduce scholarships, and choose the expanding NEC. Or, they form a 63 scholarship New Yankee Conference and grab Fordham and Colgate to complete their vision.

Do any of these three scenarios bolster the PL?

Yes, if Maine and UNH fold, that does bolster the PL, same as if they reduce schollies and move to the NEC - both scenarios potentially give the PL more recruits and less competition. Furthermore, fewer northeast programs make it less likely that members bolt and solidifies the PL. If there is a new Yankee Conference, good for them - Fordham may go there, but I doubt Colgate will. When schollies come to the PL, that will bolster the league.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

UALBANY and just about every other State school in the NE has made these comments.

This fact doesn't mean that the concerns aren't genuine.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, if Maine and UNH fold, that does bolster the PL, same as if they reduce schollies and move to the NEC - both scenarios potentially give the PL more recruits and less competition. Furthermore, fewer northeast programs make it less likely that members bolt and solidifies the PL. If there is a new Yankee Conference, good for them - Fordham may go there, but I doubt Colgate will. When schollies come to the PL, that will bolster the league.

You're looking at the trees, not the forest, in both cases.

If they fold or go to the NEC, football in all of the Northeast is immediately affected since PL teams will have no choice but to load up on NEC and Ivy OOC opponents, with the occasional game against Delaware State, Morgan State, or Towson. More recruits won't come to PL schools: instead they'll say, "The real action is in Virginia and the Carolinas," and will migrate appropriately.

If a New Yankee conference is formed, the PL immediately slides into further irrelevancy. If you're a middle class kid and want to compete at the "highest FCS level", no doubt Maine, UNH, and the new Yankee teams will get a large chunk of those kids. Even schollies may not be enough to make the PL relevant again with two, vibrant Northeast football conferences (the NEC and New Yankee) and the Ivy League.

So basically, I wholeheartedly disagree that the PL is bolstered in any way with any of these scenarios.

[LUHawker]

You're looking at the trees, not the forest, in both cases.

If they fold or go to the NEC, football in all of the Northeast is immediately affected since PL teams will have no choice but to load up on NEC and Ivy OOC opponents, with the occasional game against Delaware State, Morgan State, or Towson. More recruits won't come to PL schools: instead they'll say, "The real action is in Virginia and the Carolinas," and will migrate appropriately.

If a New Yankee conference is formed, the PL immediately slides into further irrelevancy. If you're a middle class kid and want to compete at the "highest FCS level", no doubt Maine, UNH, and the new Yankee teams will get a large chunk of those kids. Even schollies may not be enough to make the PL relevant again with two, vibrant Northeast football conferences (the NEC and New Yankee) and the Ivy League.

So basically, I wholeheartedly disagree that the PL is bolstered in any way with any of these scenarios.

This is not the first and will not be the last time that you and I wholeheartedly disagree on what is and isn't good for the PL. I do not mind you disagreeing with me and having a different opinion or analysis. What I do mind, however, is you telling me that I am only seeing the trees, not the forest.

I think you could be right that recruits might then say, "the action is in Virginia or the Carolinas", but that does not debunk my assertion that the PL would have additional potential recruits. Simply because two CAA schools drop or go to the NEC, does not suddenly demand that the PL schools will have to "load up" on Ivy and NEC teams. How many games have the PL teams played UNH and Maine over the last few years? A handful at most. I would argue that if they drop programs, then there are a bunch more games against CAA teams that suddenly become available.

Noodle that for a bit.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I would argue that if they drop programs, then there are a bunch more games against CAA teams that suddenly become available.

Okay, so Maine and UNH drop football and VCU and George Mason start up football. The CAA has exactly the same number of teams as before. How does that open up any slots? At absolute best, VCU and George Mason pepper their OOC schedule with the occasional PL opponent, as UNH and Maine have done. But it's also reasonable to believe that won't happen with so many local programs around to pull for games (VMI, Liberty, Appalachian State, Furman, etc. etc., not even counting the many FBS teams available).

The CAA has been tilting south for at least five years, and if UNH, Nova and Maine leave (all real possibilities), Delaware will be its northernmost school. This isn't a good thing for any school north of the Mason/Dixon line.

[henfan]

The CAA has been tilting south for at least five years...

Alas, CAA FB has existed for only 4 seasons (2007-2010). 2011 will be the 5th.

[danefan]

Anyway you slice it, the CAA has no need for UNH or Maine or any other school in the Northeast. Maine and UNH on the other hand very much need the CAA.

I don't know about you, but seems pretty obvious that the CAA holds the power in that relationship. So in other words - pay up for travel or leave the CAA.

There's currently no place to go and no near term solution of full scholarship football, so.......they're going to pay for travel.

[Dane96]

And 8 pages are reduced to one final statement of fact.

Bravo. xthumbsupxxsmileyclapx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And 8 pages are reduced to one final statement of fact.

Bravo. xthumbsupxxsmileyclapx

And they're crying for help. xlolx

[henfan]

CAA FB may not NEED UMaine and UNH but also don't want to lose them.

While CAA FB hasn't taken an approach nearly as brazen or confrontational as "pay up... or leave", unfortunately, that MAY be the harsh reality. If public statements can be believed, the league will continue working to minimize travel expenses as best they can to the extent that they can within the CAA scheduling framework, not just for UMaine & UNH but for all of the schools.

It'll be interesting to see what creative solutions the conference can come up once URI & UMass are out of the picture.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It'll be interesting to see what creative solutions the conference can come up once URI & UMass are out of the picture.

The only creative solution I can see involves cash payments to cover travel expenses.

[henfan]

The only creative solution I can see involves cash payments to cover travel expenses.

Of course, UMaine & UNH aren't the only schools in the conference boarding planes to play FB games. Every other school in the conference will be doing the same to go to Orono, Durham & Atlanta. It's the cost of doing business and competing in one of the best conferences in the FCS.

[NHwildEcat]

The CAA should by out Southwest and then have a their own private fleet to get players from point A to B.

[danefan]

The CAA should by out Southwest and then have a their own private fleet to get players from point A to B.

Not too far off from what I was thinking......well besides the buy-out thing. There has to be some cost savings available from centralizing travel negotiations. The CAA could strike a deal on behalf of all of its teams for air travel. More bargaining power would surely reduce cost somewhat.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not too far off from what I was thinking......well besides the buy-out thing. There has to be some cost savings available from centralizing travel negotiations. The CAA could strike a deal on behalf of all of its teams for air travel. More bargaining power would surely reduce cost somewhat.

This might work with UNH, but will not work with Maine since Bangor has no commercial flights going out of its airport.

[Dane96]

Which is precisely what we have all been saying; you cannot lump comments of UNH with those of Maine. Different circumstances.

[ccd494]

This might work with UNH, but will not work with Maine since Bangor has no commercial flights going out of its airport.

What?

Bangor has multiple daily flights to Detroit, Philadelphia and NYC, and a few times a week to Sanford, FL.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

One solution could be to employ the Pioneer Football League's pooled travel cost regime, but without so tight a restriction on number of travellers. The PFL can have Marist and San Diego in a conference which mostly has a midwest/southeast axis. I suspect, however, the CAA football has already rejected this egalitarian approach, opting instead to see how those northerners do, left to the elements. Maybe they will toss a biscuit.

[VT Wildcat Fan53]

Travel, in this new economic reality which has forced strategic budgeting, will always be the determining factor, ....

NEW 8 team Yankee Conference: xthumbsupx
UNH
UMaine
URI
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham
Stony Brook
UAlbany

The remaining 5 PL Teams will find 3 more and effectively, if not officially, go the way of the Ivies... how about Davidson, Marist, and Sacred Heart?

Every team mentioned wants to compete for a FCS title.... this allows 63 scholarships and nary a plane flight, ... Just ask Northeastern how great joining the CAA has been for them. xeyebrowx

[Go...gate]

Travel, in this new economic reality which has forced strategic budgeting, will always be the determining factor, ....

NEW 8 team Yankee Conference: xthumbsupx
UNH
UMaine
URI
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham
Stony Brook
UAlbany

The remaining 5 PL Teams will find 3 more and effectively, if not officially, go the way of the Ivies... how about Davidson, Marist, and Sacred Heart?

Every team mentioned wants to compete for a FCS title.... this allows 63 scholarships and nary a plane flight, ... Just ask Northeastern how great joining the CAA has been for them. xeyebrowx

Darn good geographic footprint, for sure.

[NHwildEcat]

This thread is getting old...until something new actually comes up there really isn't much to talk about in respect to UNH and their situation within the CAA.