Kennebec Journal: Should Maine Seek Patriot League?

[DFW HOYA]

The urgency of Maine's need to chart its future follows the loss of Northeastern and Hofstra football in 2009, Rhode Island's departure for the Northeast Conference next year and Massachusetts moving up a level. UMass begins play in the Mid-American Conference in 2012. Villanova is poised to make a move to the Football Bowl Subdivision level in the coming years, with talk of joining the Big East gaining momentum. That leaves Maine and New Hampshire alone in the north of the CAA.

UNH is within an hour's drive of two major commercial airports -- Boston and Manchester, N.H. -- and aren't in the travel pickle Maine is in.

So, among the most likely scenarios is combining with another league down the road.

The Patriot League is a likely frontrunner. Current member schools are Lehigh, Holy Cross, Colgate, Georgetown, Lafayette, Bucknell and Fordham.

Member schools are allowed 63 scholarships, and the addition of Maine, New Hampshire, and perhaps Rhode Island, it would improve to a stronger, 10-team league.

Really?

http://www.kjonline.com/sports/looking-at-maines-future_2011-08-06.html

[crusader11]

Clearly there is an inaccuracy with the scholarships that is brought up, but boy wouldn't that make a nice little league? A great balance of the PA schools coupled with four New England teams. This Holy Cross fan is sure pulling for something like this to happen. And, if the PL eventually does go scholarships, I'd be very surprised if it didn't happen.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm sure that LFN already has shot off a missive to Jenn Menendez, the author of that piece, asking where she got her information. Some how I doubt that the UNH and Maine alums would tolerate a move to our patsy, wine-sipping, much-belittled conference unless the only alternative was to drop football completely.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

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xlolx

Perhaps time to make a follow-up to this blog posting on Jan, 11th, 2010: "A Way to Save the Patriot League":

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/01/way-to-save-patriot-league.html


Don't laugh. With scholarships, it may not be the huge adjustment for these two schools that you might think.

In terms of public schools, they graduate their athletes. New Hampshire was publicly commended for their football teams' APR rate (979) for the second consecutive year, putting them in the same honor roll as the Ivy League and many Patriot League schools. Maine (969) isn't far behind - so they both have a history of taking athletes that are representative of the rest of the class. And when they get to Cowell and Orono, they graduate.

There would be more benefits for UNH and Maine in the form of a much more regional schedule. No more flights or long bus trips to Virginia. They'd gain bus trips to Holy Cross and Fordham every year - and would retain Pennsylvania as a valuable recruiting area. Costs would be reduced - and, with scholarships, they could continue to play FBS schools for paydays as well.

As for the Patriot League, it would be a coup in terms of shoring up football. Nine high-academic members in football, even with a large number of affiliates (four), would squash all doubts that they are are not serious about football. Fordham, presumably, would enthusiastically sign up for a full-scholarship Patriot League with an Academic Index since that's in effect what they're doing now.

DId I mention it would be contingent on Patriot League allowing 63 scholarships?

[RichH2]

Just read the article but you beat me to it DFW. The writer may just be prescient on scholarships as opposed to being inaccurate. One can dream.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

xlolx

Perhaps time to make a follow-up to this blog posting on Jan, 11th, 2010: "A Way to Save the Patriot League":

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/01/way-to-save-patriot-league.html



DId I mention it would be contingent on Patriot League allowing 63 scholarships?

And lowering that AI!!!! UNH has stringent academic standards for their athletes, but the levels of the average student at UNH aren't near the Patriot AI from what I've seen. Does the Ivy really adhere to a similar AI? They don't seem to be in basketball. Aren't the Patriot folks questioning whether Fordham is still adhering to that AI?

Does the author of the article know about the AI?

[Bogus Megapardus]

And lowering that AI!!!! UNH has stringent academic standards for their athletes, but the levels of the average student at UNH aren't near the Patriot AI from what I've seen. Does the Ivy really adhere to a similar AI? They don't seem to be in basketball. Aren't the Patriot folks questioning whether Fordham is still adhering to that AI?

Does the author of the article know about the AI?


From what I understand Ivy and Patriot have the exact same AI. It's a range rather than a hard number and there's room in the lower "band" for 2-3 kids in the 1120-1170 range. Ivy seems pretty determined with its AI compliance, including basketball. Every kid, in both leagues, has to pass through the respective league office.

UNH could comply with the AI if it wanted to, as long as it retained the full compliment of scholarships. Maintaining AI numbers without scholarships, while playing a rigorous FCS schedule, is not a feat for the weak of constitution, though.

If the author of the article is unaware that Patriot does not (presently) allow scholarships, it's a good be that she's unaware of the Academic Index as well.

[Seawolf97]

I read the article and I think if Maine goes then UNH will surely follow. Where they go is another question -PL, NEC ? Really interesting scenario developing.

[aceinthehole]

If the author of the article is unaware that Patriot does not (presently) allow scholarships, it's a good be that she's unaware of the Academic Index as well.

Yeah, the author appears misinformed about the basics of the situation. This is just a case of poor/lazy reporting.

Maine is destined for the NEC with URI

UNH will stick it out in the CAA.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

From what I understand Ivy and Patriot have the exact same AI. It's a range rather than a hard number and there's room in the lower "band" for 2-3 kids in the 1120-1170 range. Ivy seems pretty determined with its AI compliance, including basketball. Every kid, in both leagues, has to pass through the respective league office.

UNH could comply with the AI if it wanted to, as long as it retained the full compliment of scholarships. Maintaining AI numbers without scholarships, while playing a rigorous FCS schedule, is not a feat for the weak of constitution, though.

If the author of the article is unaware that Patriot does not (presently) allow scholarships, it's a good be that she's unaware of the Academic Index as well.

Doing a quick google search, I came up with an SAT range of 1030-1240 for the middle 50% of those admitted to UNH. There have been many reports that admission standards for athletes at UNH are the same as the student body. If we assume that, then you'll see that UNH couldn't adhere to the current AI. Frankly, we'd be lucky to field a team! Now that doesn't mean UNH is a football factory that admits anyone and has fluff majors. I'd venture to say that UNH standards for football players are more stringent than over at least 80% of the other D-I football schools and we're graduating over 90% of them without any basket weaving majors. If the Patriot League won't compromise to standards that Fordham and publics like UNH, Maine, Delaware, Albany, etc. could agree to, then good luck with those D-III upgrades.

Do you really think that Ivy Basketball is adhering to your current AI????????? I have a very difficult time believing that. It sure isn't what I've heard up here in New England. Husky Alum, do you still read this forum. Dane96, what do you think?

I agree that the author really doesn't understand Patriot League Football.

[ngineer]

I just don't see it happening. The use of Towson was just that, as there was not a good fit. Seems that there would be too many issues dividing state schools and the privates.

[aceinthehole]

Not to mention Maine hasn't had any recent history with the PL. Maine has played a total 3 games vs. PL opponents since 1985.

1996 - at Fordham
1999 - at Colgate
2001 - vs Colgate

[NHwildEcat]

UNH isn't going anywhere anytime soon...costs are currently steady overall. As long as costs don't rise crazily, UNH will stick with the CAA for the foreseeable future.

I have a gut feeling that Maine will stick it out for awhile too.

[carney2]

The AI issues can be resolved. It might take the admission of a Maine and/or New Hampshire to force the issue, but it can be done.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The AI issues can be resolved. It might take the admission of a Maine and/or New Hampshire to force the issue, but it can be done.

In 2010, I wrote:


A potential issue might be how UNH and Maine would fit in with the Patriot League's academic index. Their total admissions profile not as selective as Patriot League schools (which makes sense, since they're both public universities) - but their football teams, like those in the Patriot League,recruit nationally. New Hampshire's team last year only had 17 athletes from the state of New Hampshire, and Maine had only a slightly higher number, 21.

Considering this reality, could UNH's and Maine's be assigned an academic index based on the class average of their "out of state" admissions numbers? I have to believe that their SAT/GPA numbers for out-of-state applicants would resembles Fordham's, though I'm not sure.

Would the league be able to look at their academic index and give a thumbs up to an idea like this?

The PL, of couse, could be thinking of creative solutions like this to strengthen the football league - to save their own conference, and to maybe even save Northeast full-scholarship football as a result. However, this assumes a level of engagement and creativity that has not been shown by the league presidents since, oh, 1985?

Maine AD Steve Abbott also said:


"There's so many different factors. I don't think anything is going to happen right away, but when it does happen it will happen fast," Abbott said. "Winning is a factor, but where's the future in your conference? We're interested in playing at this level. So we've got to find partners interested who want to make a commitment. That could happen in the CAA, it could happen somewhere else."

Translation: We are interested in what other leagues have to say.

But will the Patriot League presidents pick up the phone?

[Bogus Megapardus]

But will the Patriot League presidents pick up the phone?

When sufficiently motivated, it is my understanding that a PL president might even pick up the phone after the third ring, instead of the fourth.

[aceinthehole]

The AI issues can be resolved. It might take the admission of a Maine and/or New Hampshire to force the issue, but it can be done.

How? The scholarship issue hasn't been resolved with an associate member who closely shares the academic standards of the league. Now you expect the League to offer membership to 2 public universities that already offer 63 scholarships? You are being way too optimistic.

Also, isn't the AI is a 'core value' of the PL, signifying its commitment to the STUDENT-athlete? As others have noted, UNH is a fine school with strong academics, and its football players closely mirror the student population at-large, but it is not of the same caliber of the rest of the PL. As an public institution serving the needs of its State residents, I doubt any outside-imposed academic restrictions would ever be acceptable to UNH or Maine. Unless the PL is willing to do a complete reversal and EXEMPT any public institutions from the AI, I cannot reasonably fathom how UNH or Maine would consider membership in the PL.

[DFW HOYA]

There are but five schools who place an SAT score and a GPA at the altar of admissions and after a quarter century, no one really has followed. Yes, Fordham is around for a while longer, and Georgetown has a safe harbor, but the AI is not part of its core philosophy. If the PL continues to place this as the firewall to reject all other institutions, it will be the instrument of its dissolution.

[Bogus Megapardus]

DFW, you make it seem as if grades and test scores are of no value in the college admissions process. This can't be what you meant to imply.

[Franks Tanks]

And lowering that AI!!!! UNH has stringent academic standards for their athletes, but the levels of the average student at UNH aren't near the Patriot AI from what I've seen. Does the Ivy really adhere to a similar AI? They don't seem to be in basketball. Aren't the Patriot folks questioning whether Fordham is still adhering to that AI?

Does the author of the article know about the AI?


The AI is fine as long as it is school specific. UNH and Maine seem to bring in players that are representative of their student body as a whole, which is the main idea behind the AI. I always hated the league wide AI, but a school specific one would seem to work for UNH.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There are but five schools who place an SAT score and a GPA at the altar of admissions and after a quarter century, no one really has followed. Yes, Fordham is around for a while longer, and Georgetown has a safe harbor, but the AI is not part of its core philosophy. If the PL continues to place this as the firewall to reject all other institutions, it will be the instrument of its dissolution.

Personally, I do not think of the AI as a "firewall" to keep other schools out of the league in and of itself. It's the combination of the AI (basically to allow its schools to only recruit from a pool of high-academic qualifiers) and need-based aid (which creates a "donut hole" to realistically only recruit mostly no-need and high-need recruits) that is unacceptable to any other schools.

Put it this way: do I think UNH's head coach would have any issues recruiting in a 63 scholarship AI world? I personally think that the athletes on coach McDonnell's teams would look almost identical to the teams he has now. But if you told coach McDonnell that he didn't have 63 scholarships anymore and he only was allowed to offer need-based aid, his teams would change dramatically.

This is apart from the other benefits of having 63 scholarships - more competitive on the national FCS scene, the ability to be bowl counters for FBS teams on a regular basis, etc.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW, you make it seem as if grades and test scores are of no value in the college admissions process. This can't be what you meant to imply.

Of course they have value but four years in the classroom is much more valuable than four hours in a standardized test. I'm sure Georgetown gets plenty of phone calls from angry parents wondering why their son or daughter didn't get in with 800's on the SAT when they were a B student otherwise.

It is disingenous for the PL to say that an athlete can only be offered admission based on a fixed scale SAT and GPA formula when an aspiring music major or economics student is not. Do Marquis Scholars have to be judged on an index? Does Lehigh tell the CEAS only to take five students with one combination of SAT's and grades and ten of another, regardless of quality of coursework or program? How silly would it be for Colgate to tell a student: "Your 3.5 and 1500 SAT were impressive as an English major, but we already filled our quota in that range."

The Index is what it is--a sop to the Ivy League and a big stick to wave at aspiring coaches who have dreams of competing at a more serious level nationally. If there's a PL school you don't trust to admit the best students it chooses to, tell us now.

And even assuming the Index has value to these five schools, I'd prefer an GPA index as a admissions tool over the bias and variance of the SAT.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The AI is fine as long as it is school specific. UNH and Maine seem to bring in players that are representative of their student body as a whole, which is the main idea behind the AI. I always hated the league wide AI, but a school specific one would seem to work for UNH.

And wouldn't it work for Fordham too?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Personally, I do not think of the AI as a "firewall" to keep other schools out of the league in and of itself. It's the combination of the AI (basically to allow its schools to only recruit from a pool of high-academic qualifiers) and need-based aid (which creates a "donut hole" to realistically only recruit mostly no-need and high-need recruits) that is unacceptable to any other schools.

Put it this way: do I think UNH's head coach would have any issues recruiting in a 63 scholarship AI world? I personally think that the athletes on coach McDonnell's teams would look almost identical to the teams he has now. But if you told coach McDonnell that he didn't have 63 scholarships anymore and he only was allowed to offer need-based aid, his teams would change dramatically.

This is apart from the other benefits of having 63 scholarships - more competitive on the national FCS scene, the ability to be bowl counters for FBS teams on a regular basis, etc.

I must not understand this AI then because the figures I've seen you Patriot guys fire around are higher than the average student at UNH. As I look at it, I'm not sure half of our current team gets admitted with that PL AI. Please explain how our existing team would meet the current Patriot AI. xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

[Franks Tanks]

And wouldn't it work for Fordham too?


It appears Fordham no longer wants to recruit players that are representative of their class.