TxSt Student Govt Threatens AD to I-A Move

[TexasTerror]

We all know my opinion on SGA's and athletics. If not, I think they don't mix typically.

The Ivy League student governments trying to get the Ivies in the I-AA playoffs is one thing. SHSU doing a "declaration of war" is another, especially when it brings negative regional and local attention to an organization, that did not help a single thing.

However, this one tops the cake. Texas State - San Marcos and their overzealous Associated Student Government (AGS) is threatening the university and the athletic department that they will cut 50% of their fee money that goes to athletics if the university does not move to I-A football.

According to the article in the University Star, "Additionally, the resolution puts pressure on the football program to move to Division 1-A by suggesting a 50 percent cut in the intercollegiate athletic service fee after five years if the entire athletic department is not at that level. The only program in the department not currently competing at the Division 1-A level is the football program."

Well, last I checked, the whole athletic department was already Division I. No such thing as I-A exists in any sport outside of football. Also, that 50% cut would really hurt the Bobcats' budget, especially considering that money goes to scholarships. You going to cut funding on scholarships to your fellow students? In addition to this, the ASG does not have complete power over the commitee that gives student fees to athletics per state law pertaining to student service fees.

Now, that above point was one of two major things in the resolution passed by the ASG. They went about "urging the university administration to remove athletic department funding from the student service fee and implement a separate intercollegiate athletic service fee." Now, that may cut money as well unless the intercollegiate athletic service fee rises similar to that of the student service fee. I know at SHSU, that athletics gets 50% of the student service fee, regardless of how much it is. If we had a seperate fee, who is to say they'd get as much as they would if it were at 50%?

According to Kyle V Morris, it seems like the fee would remain stationary, thus taking away money from the athletic department and "cutting student costs" to athletics. He seems to feel they can financially sustain themselves. Um, Kyle? How many athletic departments can financially sustain themselves without any sort of student fee, especially when it's scaled back as much as you guys seemingly would?

I guess this is what an in ill-informed student government would do to you...

http://star.txstate.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1277&Itemid=50

[jmuroller]

They have one great season and automatically they think they can play w/ the big boys. Where are they going to go? Obviously not the Big 12. Conf. USA won't take them. Have fun in the Southland.

[TexasTerror]

They have one great season and automatically they think they can play w/ the big boys. Where are they going to go? Obviously not the Big 12. Conf. USA won't take them. Have fun in the Southland.

I honestly believe it is a small minority in San Marcos that wants them to move to I-A immediately.

Then, I think there is a huge group that wants the university to have a good five year period of success in I-AA football and improved success across the board, then come up with a five-year plan to get them to C-USA or whichever Div I-A conference they feel meet their needs for overall athletic success...

To me, the Sun Belt is not an option for them. The fans that know a thing or two about athletics know this and think it'll take time to get beyond the Sun Belt into a percieved "better" conference. We'll see, but this just goes to show you what overzealous leaders of a student government will do...

Interestingly enough, a few years ago, they had two student leaders who went against the school administration and the Board of Regents. They fought for a name change and beat everyone who wasn't ready or just against it in general. Those two got the name changed from Southwest Texas to Texas State University- San Marcos. This is nothing new. Big dreamers who do not know what is good for the university or may be rushing the university's "grand plan".

Rushing a huge plan may come back to bite you in the bum. Has to be well coordinated...

[colgate13]

In addition to this, the ASG does not have complete power over the commitee that gives student fees to athletics per state law pertaining to student service fees.

My first thought exactly. Since when does the student government have the power to set charges?

Smell you later ASG...

[TexasTerror]

My first thought exactly. Since when does the student government have the power to set charges? Smell you later ASG...

Per state law, there are student members on the Student Service Fee commitee, but the sole job they have is allocation of fees. ASG can make reccomendations for increases, new fees, etc, but I see this one being hard to come by unless ASG presents a complete solution to what they are trying to seek instead of an "empty threat"...

Final say comes to the admins and then the Board of Regents...

[carney2]

I've used this line before, but when it fits,...

Vast plans with half vast resources.

They should do it. They would give Rice someone to look down on.

[colgate13]

Final say comes to the admins and then the Board of Regents...

Exactly. Smell you later.

Board members typically don't take well to threats. Plus, they can sit on it for 4 years and everyone involved might have graduated by then.

[TexasTerror]

They should do it. They would give Rice someone to look down on.

Hey now, Rice made a helluva HC hire for football and seems to be heading in the right direction. Fans are pumped. Renovations are going to be made. There's a fresh sense of change forthcoming and it's something lots of people in Houston are excited about...

Rice is also in C-USA (the Bobcats' goal right now) while an immediate I-A jump would leave the 'Cats as independents or in the Sun Belt where 5000 legit people in the crowd is considered good attendance! ;)

[Mr. C]

I could see Texas State becoming the new Idaho, if they make a move to I-A. This is a program that has shared in one Southland football title and doesn't have any of the infra-structure necessary at this point (no where near it) to make a move. It might also be nice for these student politicians to get a clue about the structure of the NCAA (I-A in every sport, but football???) before they start making ultamatums.

[Retro]

Nothing will happen, because these students can't simply withhold a certain fee amount, without getting kicked out of school!

Besides, they will all come down to reality next year after they finish at the bottom of the SLC.xlolx

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

:smiley_wi gah...TexasTerror beat me to it.

when i read this article, I was furious! all this crap is coming from (like TT said) a SMALL MINORITY at Texas State, so don't go on believing that Texas State wants to move Div IA. (if you don't believe me, read the replies on www.bobcatfans.com) Every school has these "dreamers" who believe that their school needs to compete with the big boys. The people who are threatening this plan obviously know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about athletics (especially football...IN TEXAS). I guess they'll learn their lesson when we get a 60+ point beating on us at the hands of UT or Texas Tech. Then, they'll be crying to move back down to Div I-AA.

So yeah...most students at Texas State don't want us to go I-A right now. It's unreasonable. I thought the playoff run last year would teach these goons that we need to stay I-AA...

And about us going back down to the cellar...we'll see. But, that's pretty big talk from a guy who's team got outscored 103-31 (or something very similar) at the hands of the Bobcats the last two seasons...:smiley_wi

[Retro]

And about us going back down to the cellar...we'll see. But, that's pretty big talk from a guy who's team got outscored 103-24 at the hands of the Bobcats the last two seasons...

Big talk? C'mon, you guys win more than 1 title every 20 years and then you can gloat!

[*****]

:argue:

[Bobcat94]

Big talk? C'mon, you guys win more than 1 title every 20 years and then you can gloat!

54-27 and 49-7.....

I think that covers the talk for now...

And NO, Texas State should not make a lateral or move down to I-A. (Moving to an I-A conference with no chance at a national championship, not for me.) The opportunities for national championships are where my desires reside…. I-AA all the way!!! Every year as long as you finish with 7 or 8 wins you have a shot. Obviously, we need to repeat that consistently, but the opportunity is always there.

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

isn't there still an attendance requirement for the move to Div I-A? Our stadium only holds 15,300...I doubt we'd reach it, unless we move temp. bleachers in and have a crazy season RIGHT OFF THE BAT EVERY YEAR to even come close to the attendance requirements...

[darussian12]

TT as flattered as I am that you are so concerned with our University...why not worry about all the things going on at Sam...im sure they could use your experise (sp) in fixing their football coach and whatever other problems they might have since you seem so knowledgeable in many facets of a university, from name changes, to moving to D I-A to Grambling's QB future to how ASG should run things...gotta do it the TT way or no way!

[darussian12]

Per state law, there are student members on the Student Service Fee commitee, but the sole job they have is allocation of fees

so then they wouldnt be able to allocate the fees differently to other areas instead of athletics cause thats what your post says...allocation of fees...worry about something that concerns you or the University you love to talk up....not the University you have nothing to do with.

[McNeese75]

54-27 and 49-7.....

I think that covers the talk for now...



Are you one of the homebody fans? Will you be coming to the the game this year to see if those mighty I-A Bobcats can make it three in a row??? xlolx

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Interesting and Intriguing!!

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Maybe the SGA's leadership has a huge vision for a Texas State vs North Texas I-A rivalry beginning.

[ucdtim17]

isn't there still an attendance requirement for the move to Div I-A? Our stadium only holds 15,300...I doubt we'd reach it, unless we move temp. bleachers in and have a crazy season RIGHT OFF THE BAT EVERY YEAR to even come close to the attendance requirements...

They haven't enforced that and I don't think there's any plan to

[00bluehen]

They have one great season and automatically they think they can play w/ the big boys. Where are they going to go? Obviously not the Big 12. Conf. USA won't take them. Have fun in the Southland.
Could say the same thing about fans in Harrisonburg, Virginia.:D

[kats89]

That small minority of TSU-SM fans have been talking that b.s. for years. I think the logical and even thinking fans realize that I-AA is the place to be for the Bobcats. I knew that blabbering about moving to I-A would start up again since they actually go into the playoffs last year. xidiotx Let them do it. They would be nothing but another crappy Sun Belt Conference team going to New Orleans Bowl games with 6-5 records. Whoopie! I would much rather have the opportunity to play for a NC.

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

That small minority of TSU-SM fans have been talking that b.s. for years. I think the logical and even thinking fans realize that I-AA is the place to be for the Bobcats. I knew that blabbering about moving to I-A would start up again since they actually go into the playoffs last year. xidiotx Let them do it. They would be nothing but another crappy Sun Belt Conference team going to New Orleans Bowl games with 6-5 records. Whoopie! I would much rather have the opportunity to play for a NC.

i agree that the small minority of "fans" have been talking about the move for years. (i use the word "fans" because it is obvious that these guys didn't attend the playoff games at bobcat stadium last year. otherwise, this wouldn't even come up!) but, right now, it's just a referendum. i think these guys are slowly realizing how dumb this whole resolution is and by the time it comes for the vote from the entire student body, hopefully everyone will realize the stupidity in this thing.

[GeauxLions94]

Maybe the SGA's leadership has a huge vision for a Texas State vs North Texas I-A rivalry beginning.

I smell Fowler, Herbstreit and Corso making a trip to San Marcos with College Gameday :rolleyes:

[kats89]

i agree that the small minority of "fans" have been talking about the move for years. (i use the word "fans" because it is obvious that these guys didn't attend the playoff games at bobcat stadium last year. otherwise, this wouldn't even come up!) but, right now, it's just a referendum. i think these guys are slowly realizing how dumb this whole resolution is and by the time it comes for the vote from the entire student body, hopefully everyone will realize the stupidity in this thing.


Your SGA needs to quit smoking the hippie lettuce over there.:doh:

[TexasTerror]

TT as flattered as I am that you are so concerned with our University...why not worry about all the things going on at Sam...im sure they could use your experise (sp) in fixing their football coach and whatever other problems they might have since you seem so knowledgeable in many facets of a university, from name changes, to moving to D I-A to Grambling's QB future to how ASG should run things...gotta do it the TT way or no way!


So, I'm not allowed to post a story about a I-AA institution that could be leaving the conference that my school participates in? Funny. I post stories about all sorts of I-AA schools and things I come across online whether it's about the Harvard Student Council pushing for an Ivy League playoff, a coaching change in the A10 or Southern Utah's scheduling woes, but I can't post about the Bobcats? :eek:

Thanks for letting me know, darussian! darussian, your obviously in the minority, which ASG has been in numerous instances. They definitely have "a fundamental misunderstanding of representative democracy" (a quote that Sen Jeff Wentworth made famous during the 2003 name change battle). The minority could sure hurt the university and I hope the ASG realizes the errors of their ways. :nonono2:

[TexasTerror]

To the minority,

I'm sure the fans on here that have an actual understanding of sports realizes that you need to have continued success at the I-AA level before the time is ripe to make a move to I-A. How many SLC titles have you won so far? Just one in twenty years.

Yes, Coach Bailiff has got the program back to where all the Bobcat fans who have followed the program since the days of Jim Wacker want it to be. That's great. Oh, he's turned around the acaademics too! Us folks in the SLC love it when we have a competitive program that can bring us national headlines. However, that was just one season and if you guys were to announce a move to I-A, would it really benefit you? Probably not.

It's probably a lateral move right now to move from the SLC to the Sun Belt. Yes, your at the I-A level, but does being in the Sun Belt actually help? Is that the I-A that you want? Are you sure you'll have success in that conference? And will it be continued success? Your not sure. No one knows, whether it's Coach Bailiff, Treacherous or Chris Jones! It's a tough transition from I-AA to I-A. Some schools have done it successfully (UConn and Marshall), but others have done it completely wrong (Louisiana-Monroe and Idaho).

Which grouping do you want to be? UConn and Marshall or ULM and Idaho? Marshall had success in I-AA for several years over a nice period of time. UConn already had a major conference to step into, a lot of support from the state (to build their new stadium) and a pretty solid alumni backing. Do the Bobcats have a strong track record in I-AA? No. A major conference to step into? No. Support from the state to improve facilities? This is Texas, of course not. A strong alumni backing? It's improving steadily, especially after this past season, but could it help bankroll the move to I-A? No.

You can't say that the Bobcats will have a great transition and eventually get picked up by C-USA, the WAC or whomever. You just don't know, but the ingriedents that made for a successful I-AA to I-A transition are non-existant. Perhaps the economics major that Kyle V Morris is, would show him that there are things that make for a successful operation. If he would study the Marshall or UConn models, perhaps he'd see the method to make a successful jump. The tools for success are just not there quite yet in San Marcos and a mistake in the jump could end up costing the student body more one way or another to cover for athletics shortcoming (see UNT's President having to dip into various funds to help athletics)...

[blur2005]

Could say the same thing about fans in Harrisonburg, Virginia.:D
Aren't we funny? I don't think we're quite the same, as JMU had actually had success in the past, albeit not as much as the 2004 run. Plus, we went 7-4 last year in the toughest overall conference top to bottom. I think JMU will be back in the playoffs this year.

[colgate13]

Plus, we went 7-4 last year in the toughest overall conference top to bottom.

There you A-10 guys go again, preaching the gospel of A-10 supremacy. Fact is, in 2005 the A-10 was the 6th toughest conference according to the GPI and you only had two playoff participants who both got bounced in the quarters.

Why is it so hard to believe that some other I-AA conferences are better some years?

[rufus]

It seems like some posters have the wrong idea about Idaho's disasterous move to I-A. Several people have used Idaho as an example of a team that was not succeeding in I-AA. The fact is, Idaho made the playoffs in 9 of it's last 10 seasons in I-AA. In that same time period, Boise State made the playoffs 3 times. So since I-AA performance apparently predicts success in I-A, Idaho must be much more successful than Boise State in I-A, right?

Moving to I-A is a crap shoot. If Texas State's students are willing to gamble on a move, then good for them. The students, who elected this government as their representatives, are the ones that are going to have to face the consequences if a move to I-A ends in disaster. There are definitely potential consequences like major fee/tutition increases (see FAU), NCAA sanctions (see FAMU), and even reduced attendance numbers (see Arkansas State).

[Ronbo]

Look for an Idaho turn around soon. They hired Dennis Ericson as head coach and had the top recruiting class in the WAC the last two years.

[Bobcat94]

Are you one of the homebody fans? Will you be coming to the the game this year to see if those mighty I-A Bobcats can make it three in a row??? xlolx

Is that an invitation? I'd like to go to Lake Charles this year......Trust me, I think of the mighty Bobcats as I-AA....

[kats89]

Is that an invitation? I'd like to go to Lake Charles this year......Trust me, I think of the mighty Bobcats as I-AA....

Mighty Bobcats?xlolx xidiotx

[txstbobcat]

Any true bobcat fan that has any knowledge of our school and football program will tell you that we are not ready for the DI-A move.

Yes we had a good year last year... no it is not time to talk abou moving up.

We will have a good team next year. Our team consisted more than Barrick Nealy, and we will have another good quaterback next year. We have three boys that are fighting right now to become that starter. Anyone who knows anything about sports knows that competition for a starting role is almost the best way to improve.

The major thing that worries me about this whole proposal is that most of the students will probably vote yes to this, and it probably will pass. Our president is a joke, and I knew that something like this would come up, just based on the way we would talk about athletics before he ran for the position. Many students do not realize that this is a bad thing, and they'll see that we could play with the "big boys" of the SunBelt and vote yes.

Mark my words, it will pass, and it will be incredibly dangerous for our up-n-coming football program.

[Freightliner]

Any true bobcat fan that has any knowledge of our school and football program will tell you that we are not ready for the DI-A move.

Agreed...win in the division we are in now before talking about moving up, or just stay in the division youre in and reap the benefits of "possibly" (dont want to offend fellow SLC, I-AA teams) becomming a I-AA powerhouse (Georgia Southern, Montana, et al)


The major thing that worries me about this whole proposal is that most of the students will probably vote yes to this, and it probably will pass. Our president is a joke, and I knew that something like this would come up, just based on the way we would talk about athletics before he ran for the position. Many students do not realize that this is a bad thing, and they'll see that we could play with the "big boys" of the SunBelt and vote yes.

Mark my words, it will pass, and it will be incredibly dangerous for our up-n-coming football program.

Doesnt really matter if the students vote yes or no on it....somebody on that ASG group will pull the same stunt those other two ASG clowns did a few years back to get the name changed from Southwest Texas to Texas State - San Marcos; go past the students/alums/President/Board of Regents and go straight to the legislature....(out pops Senator Wentworthless).

[igo4uni]

There you A-10 guys go again, preaching the gospel of A-10 supremacy. Fact is, in 2005 the A-10 was the 6th toughest conference according to the GPI and you only had two playoff participants who both got bounced in the quarters.

Why is it so hard to believe that some other I-AA conferences are better some years?

Good luck convincing some on this board, 13. :)

[McNeeserocket]

54-27 and 49-7.....

I think that covers the talk for now...

Since you seem to have a very clear handle on football statistics for Texas State vs. McNeese State (at least for the last two years), you may wish to validate your schools dominance by actually using available statistics for more than two years.

I will help you out by providing statistics that will bring clarity to the picture of "dominance" that you have shown such great joy in producing on this board and other boards for the last two years.

Going back to 1985 (appears to be the beginning of this rivalry, at least of recent) the statistics suggest that McNeese somehow has managed to beat the odds by winning 15 games out of 21 possible opportunities (or our record against TSU would be 15 to 6). This statistic doesn't seem to suggest that same dominance over McNeese, but perhaps we should look at other statistics.

In 21 years, the point spreads for the games amount to MSU having 474 pts to TSU having only 332 (103 pts or almost 1/3 of TSU's total came in 2004 and 2005). Once again, it is hard to see the dominance of TSU over McNeese, but perhaps there are still other statistics we could look at.

In 21 years, TSU has won one conference championship and McNeese has won 7 Southland Conference Championships (MSU has won 10 Conference championships since joining the conference, which is more than any other team ever in this conference). TSU has advanced to the playoffs one time and McNeese has advanced to the playoffs 11 times. TSU has won two playoff games and McNeese has won 11 playoff games. McNeese has played for two I-AA National Championships and Texas State has played for none. McNeese has played in 22 playoff games and Texas State has played in 3 playoff games.

I don't know Bubba, but I just don't seem to see the Texas State football dominance over McNeese State. Why don't we just give it another decade or two and check the statistics again?

[McNeese75]

Is that an invitation? I'd like to go to Lake Charles this year......Trust me, I think of the mighty Bobcats as I-AA....

It is definitly an invitation and we will treat you right!! :nod: Also, glad to hear you enjoy the I-AA world as well.:D

[McNeese75]

"Freightliner - Agreed...win in the division we are in now before talking about moving up, or just stay in the division youre in and reap the benefits of "possibly" (dont want to offend fellow SLC, I-AA teams) becomming a I-AA powerhouse (Georgia Southern, Montana, et al"

I have been saying for several year now that with Tx State's resources and location, they shoud be a perenniel power in I-AA. Last year was the first step. (unless those students get you into the bottom of the food chain in I-A)

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

I think I should start a compaign to make sure this DOESN'T happen...

[TexasTerror]

I think I should start a compaign to make sure this DOESN'T happen...

What's to stop Kyle V Morris? He seems to have some Doerr and Fischer in his blood...doing things for himself above all else while not holding regards to how things can impact the institution. Granted the name change did not have that much negative impact at all (outside of alienating a small sect of alums), this could really hurt the institution...

[kats89]

Since you seem to have a very clear handle on football statistics for Texas State vs. McNeese State (at least for the last two years), you may wish to validate your schools dominance by actually using available statistics for more than two years.

I will help you out by providing statistics that will bring clarity to the picture of “dominance” that you have shown such great joy in producing on this board and other boards for the last two years.

Going back to 1985 (appears to be the beginning of this rivalry, at least of recent) the statistics suggest that McNeese somehow has managed to beat the odds by winning 15 games out of 21 possible opportunities (or our record against TSU would be 15 to 6). This statistic doesn't seem to suggest that same dominance over McNeese, but perhaps we should look at other statistics.

In 21 years, the point spreads for the games amount to MSU having 474 pts to TSU having only 332 (103 pts or almost 1/3 of TSU's total came in 2004 and 2005). Once again, it is hard to see the dominance of TSU over McNeese, but perhaps there are still other statistics we could look at.

In 21 years, TSU has won one conference championship and McNeese has won 7 Southland Conference Championships (10 Conference championships since joining the conference which is more than any other team ever in this conference). TSU has advanced to the playoffs one time and McNeese has advanced to the playoffs 11 times. TSU has won two playoff games and McNeese has won 11 playoff games. McNeese has played for two I-AA National Championships and Texas State has played for none. McNeese has played in 22 playoff games and Texas State has played in 2 playoff games.

I don't know Bubba, but I just don't seem to see the Texas State football dominance over McNeese State. Why don't we just give it another decade or two and check the statistics again?

Can't touch that! Bobkitties better think again before taking on McNeese fans.xlolx xcoffeex

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

Can't touch that! Bobkitties better think again before taking on McNeese fans.xlolx xcoffeex

well, ok. all that is good and everything, but are ALL of our wins going to be discredited because we sucked the last 20 years?? That seems a bit...unfair. And to be fair, it was a McNeese fan who stated that the Bobcats were going back down to the cellar. This really has nothing to do with the past 20+ years of our history (new coaches, new players, etc...). This has to do with the trends developed with the current players and coaches. FOR INSTANCE, I could state (and it would be fact) that based on our head to head, Texas State is a better football program than Sam Houston, despite you guys having more playoff appearances (based on head-to-head).

SO the last 20+ years don't really matter...but I understand the McNeese has had hard times the last two years.

This is amazing. everytime a thread starts about Texas State, someone from another school starts bashing them (i.e. "Texas State will be cellar dwellers next year."). Just a trend, right?

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Sooooo glad our SGA doesn't even know football exists here. These twits have too much power. Don't they know in the REAL congress committees usually have experts in a particular field to help them draft their legislation??

[Green Cookie Monster]

When I attended Texas State, SWT, we were known as 'suitcase U'. Most of the students would go home to Dallas, Houston, SAT or Austin on the weekends, often leaving the campus quite deserted. The town of San Marcos is relatively small w/o the student population. Austin and SAT are 35+/- miles north and south of town.

It will be very hard for the Bobcats to move to IA without more bodies being available on the weekend to attend games. Most students went to Austin or College Station to attend the 'big' college game of the day.

N. Texas in Denton, a burb of Dallas, has the cities of Dallas and Ft. Worthless to draw from and can support a IA program. I think it would be a major stretch to assume the Bobcats could easily make the change with just one playoff season in the past 20 years and a campus that likes to leave town on the weekends.

I was in San Marcos last summer and besides the people going to the outlet stores outside of town, the campus was a ghost town.

This is in no way a bash of one of my alma mater's, just experience of having attended the school. The CFL San Antonio team did quite well when playing on campus, so with aggressive marketing, a new name and a successful campaign maybe this idea could fly?

The nice thing about student 'leaders' is that they leave in May. Next fall you will have a new student government and unless they have the same agenda the topic will probably die.

[McNeese75]

This is amazing. everytime a thread starts about Texas State, someone from another school starts bashing them (i.e. "Texas State will be cellar dwellers next year."). Just a trend, right?

Maybe you should take it as a form of flattery. Afterall, when it comes to football, it is certainly better to be the topic of discussion than ignored :D

[Bobcat94]

Since you seem to have a very clear handle on football statistics for Texas State vs. McNeese State (at least for the last two years), you may wish to validate your schools dominance by actually using available statistics for more than two years.

I will help you out by providing statistics that will bring clarity to the picture of "dominance" that you have shown such great joy in producing on this board and other boards for the last two years.

Going back to 1985 (appears to be the beginning of this rivalry, at least of recent) the statistics suggest that McNeese somehow has managed to beat the odds by winning 15 games out of 21 possible opportunities (or our record against TSU would be 15 to 6). This statistic doesn't seem to suggest that same dominance over McNeese, but perhaps we should look at other statistics.

In 21 years, the point spreads for the games amount to MSU having 474 pts to TSU having only 332 (103 pts or almost 1/3 of TSU's total came in 2004 and 2005). Once again, it is hard to see the dominance of TSU over McNeese, but perhaps there are still other statistics we could look at.

In 21 years, TSU has won one conference championship and McNeese has won 7 Southland Conference Championships (MSU has won 10 Conference championships since joining the conference, which is more than any other team ever in this conference). TSU has advanced to the playoffs one time and McNeese has advanced to the playoffs 11 times. TSU has won two playoff games and McNeese has won 11 playoff games. McNeese has played for two I-AA National Championships and Texas State has played for none. McNeese has played in 22 playoff games and Texas State has played in 3 playoff games.

I don't know Bubba, but I just don't seem to see the Texas State football dominance over McNeese State. Why don't we just give it another decade or two and check the statistics again?

"Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah"

I think "No ****" works.

And I also think, "What have you done for me lately" works...

I'm not disputing your claims for SLC dominance in history, it is a fact. Just not the past two years and quit frankly y’all looked bad those past two years.......

[kats89]

SO the last 20+ years don't really matter...but I understand the McNeese has had hard times the last two years.

This is amazing. everytime a thread starts about Texas State, someone from another school starts bashing them (i.e. "Texas State will be cellar dwellers next year."). Just a trend, right

Who is bashing? I think one of your fellow bobcats was the one starting the talk referring to Tx State beating McNeese by a large margin the last two years.

C'mon, you can't compare 1 Southland title to 7. I am sure not gonna talk any smack with McNeese fans because they have owned Sam Houston over the years. Not too mention Texas Southland schools overall. And who is to say that Tx State won't be a cellar dweller next year. You lost 28 seniors including your stud D-lineman and QB. Think about it. It's not rocket science.

[McNeeserocket]

well, ok. all that is good and everything, but are ALL of our wins going to be discredited because we sucked the last 20 years?? That seems a bit...unfair. And to be fair, it was a McNeese fan who stated that the Bobcats were going back down to the cellar. This really has nothing to do with the past 20+ years of our history (new coaches, new players, etc...). This has to do with the trends developed with the current players and coaches. FOR INSTANCE, I could state (and it would be fact) that based on our head to head, Texas State is a better football program than Sam Houston, despite you guys having more playoff appearances (based on head-to-head).

SO the last 20+ years don't really matter...but I understand the McNeese has had hard times the last two years.

This is amazing. everytime a thread starts about Texas State, someone from another school starts bashing them (i.e. "Texas State will be cellar dwellers next year."). Just a trend, right?

I don't think McNeese fans or other conference fans want to minimize the accomplishments of the Texas State Football program in the last two years. In fact, your program should be congratulated for its conference and national success. I for one am happy that Texas State is building an improving football program, as it not only benefits Texas State but also it benefits the conference.

What I took exception to was the way in which you and perhaps a few others have taken it upon yourselves to say that the last two years shows that you have the in-side line on how to beat McNeese. Yes, your team easily dominated McNeese both years of 2004 and 2005. In fact, in 2003 McNeese was fortunate to get out of San Marcos with a win because many of us McNeese fans felt your team was very good.

Now for saying that it really may not be fair to include a 20 history of wins and losses because the players are different, the coaches are different, and the administration and their support is different may not really be your best argument either. True you have a new coach who brings new and perhaps better recruitment of players and playing schemes to TSU. However, in 20 years, both TSU and MSU have had numerous coaching changes, numerous recruiting changes in thinking, numerous coaching scheme changes, player changes (obviously) etc.

TSU may be beginning a new and winning trend. McNeese may continue to have problems (though I think that history supports the opposite). Checking McNeese history shows that there have been multi-year trends in the past of having losing seasons (especially during the 1980's). However, looking at McNeese's recent history in the last 10-15 years suggests that we have the normal peaks and lows that most successful programs have had. I believe that McNeese will have more typical success in the next 3-4 years, and then McNeese will again have the expected disappointing season or two, which seems to be what good programs can expect. Ask Nebraska, Norte Dame, Oklahoma and Alabama if their history on winning and losing seasons don't include a few gaps here and there where they seem to sputter.

McNeese should return to producing winning seasons in the future unless factors unknown to us interfere with normal operations (God forbid we have another hurricane or like disaster). McNeese biggest foe right now is the lack of state money. Without continued support from the state, athletics may disappear from many state schools. The State of Louisiana is facing a financial crisis unparallel in recent US state histories because of the affects of the two devastating hurricanes in 2005.

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

Who is bashing? I think one of your fellow bobcats was the one starting the talk referring to Tx State beating McNeese by a large margin the last two years.[QUOTE/]

well, i think you may want to revist the first page of this topic (near the bottom)...

[QUOTE-kats89]C'mon, you can't compare 1 Southlnd title to 7. I am sure not gonna talk any smack with McNeese fans because they have owned Sam Houston over the years. Not too mention Texas Southland schools overall. And who is to say that Tx State won't be a cellar dweller next year. You lost 28 seniors including your stud D-lineman and QB. Think about it. It's not rocket science.

you know, you're right. we may be "cellar dwellers" next year IF YOU GO BY WHAT WE LOST. Now don't get me wrong--I don't think we'll go undefeated through conference and on to the Nat'l Championship. But, I don't think we'll be as bad as some people think. But only time will tell. My point was that if a McNeese fan is going to state that we are going back to the cellar, the have obviously forgotten that the last two years, we've been a significantly better team than them (as the scores would indicate). Over the last 20 years?? Hell yes McNeese owns just about everyone.

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

Sooooo glad our SGA doesn't even know football exists here. These twits have too much power. Don't they know in the REAL congress committees usually have experts in a particular field to help them draft their legislation??


WHAT?!?!?!?!

[darussian12]

I was in San Marcos last summer and besides the people going to the outlet stores outside of town, the campus was a ghost town.

well it was summer...only a small majority of people take summer classes...of course the campus will be a ghost town since the dorms are closed just like in most other universities i would imagine...everyone that lives off campus is still around and God knows theres enough apartment complexes around here...its a fun town and has its perks

[TexasTerror]

Sooooo glad our SGA doesn't even know football exists here. These twits have too much power. Don't they know in the REAL congress committees usually have experts in a particular field to help them draft their legislation??

SGAs are messes as it relates to athletics...

The SGA at SHSU is known for having a 'Declaration of War' against SFA prior to the 2004 Battle of the Piney Woods. That became locker room material for SFA. Led to loads of remarks from the SFA head football coach and the SFA Univ President, Tito Guerrerro...

SGA ignored the TexasTerror then. :nono: They said he didn't know what he was talking about -- this same group that grumbled each time he announced upcoming sporting events during news/announcements (hey, 50% of the student service fee budget went to sports, they may as well be informed).

Lucky them, the TT bailed them out of trouble by working with the Presidents of both schools and SGA representation from SFA on a resolution against all forms of bad sportsmanship on both sides. The actions of players, fans and others affiliated with the rivalry got out of hand. :D

Oh well, it doesn't seem like there are any sports saavy people in their SGA and there will have to be someone that bails them out. If Kyle Morris wins ASG President, that school's student leadership may just dig themselves a big hole as it relates to the credibility lost by this I-A flub...

[blackfordpu]

[QUOTE=kats89]Who is bashing? I think one of your fellow bobcats was the one starting the talk referring to Tx State beating McNeese by a large margin the last two years.[QUOTE/]

well, i think you may want to revist the first page of this topic (near the bottom)...



you know, you're right. we may be "cellar dwellers" next year IF YOU GO BY WHAT WE LOST. Now don't get me wrong--I don't think we'll go undefeated through conference and on to the Nat'l Championship. But, I don't think we'll be as bad as some people think. But only time will tell. My point was that if a McNeese fan is going to state that we are going back to the cellar, the have obviously forgotten that the last two years, we've been a significantly better team than them (as the scores would indicate). Over the last 20 years?? Hell yes McNeese owns just about everyone.

Last season we lost our star QB and two recievers and look at what we did. You lost 28 players! Whether they were starters or not, that hurts. Not saying that you will do as bad as the Kats did but if you look at it objectively, you won't be a contender. Who knows though, look at the UNC basketball program this year. It can be done.

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

[QUOTE=TxState_GO_CATS!][QUOTE=kats89]Who is bashing? I think one of your fellow bobcats was the one starting the talk referring to Tx State beating McNeese by a large margin the last two years.

Last season we lost our star QB and two recievers and look at what we did. You lost 28 players! Whether they were starters or not, that hurts. Not saying that you will do as bad as the Kats did but if you look at it objectively, you won't be a contender. Who knows though, look at the UNC basketball program this year. It can be done.


looking at things objectively is what people outside the program do. people inside the program (i.e. sports fanatics that follow their team and actually know what's going on) have a better idea of what their team will do. looking at things objectively, we "should" be a bad team last year. but, unlike your team, i don't think our team will suffer as much due to the fact that we don't have a "Insert QB here" offense that you guys often feature (i.e. McNown, the guy from a few years ago from A&M...drawing a blank, sorry); we have a more balanced attack with many of our top RBs coming back. As an objective person, it's easy to focus on what we lost to graduation. What many people fail to realize was that our team was much more than Barrick Nealy and Fred Evans. True, they were GREAT players, but even when both were held in check (particularly, the Cal Poly and SHSU games), the rest of the team won games. So, looking at things as a Bobcat fan who knows what's actually coming back and who knows what's actually going on, it's hard for me to see us going back to dead last in the league. I'm expecting us to get a lot of last place votes but, whatever. Preseason polls are like clean toilet paper--they're nice and soft at first, but when you choose to use them, they tend to be full of ****. =)

Then again, that's why they play the games.

[Mr. C]

It seems like some posters have the wrong idea about Idaho's disasterous move to I-A. Several people have used Idaho as an example of a team that was not succeeding in I-AA. The fact is, Idaho made the playoffs in 9 of it's last 10 seasons in I-AA. In that same time period, Boise State made the playoffs 3 times. So since I-AA performance apparently predicts success in I-A, Idaho must be much more successful than Boise State in I-A, right?

Moving to I-A is a crap shoot. If Texas State's students are willing to gamble on a move, then good for them. The students, who elected this government as their representatives, are the ones that are going to have to face the consequences if a move to I-A ends in disaster. There are definitely potential consequences like major fee/tutition increases (see FAU), NCAA sanctions (see FAMU), and even reduced attendance numbers (see Arkansas State).
Since I was the one who brought up Idaho, I thought I needed to respond to this post. Yes, I was well aware of Idaho's success as a I-AA school. I actually covered an Idaho game back in the late 1970s (still have the press guide from that season in my files) and a California junior college I covered from 1980-83 (West Hills College) was well connected with the Vandals. Two players from a championship West Hills program, WR Ronnie Oliver and DT-LB Sam Manoa (brother of former Penn State FB and NFL player Tim Manoa), transfered to Idaho and were very productive Big Sky Conference players. The coach at West Hills, Carl Ferrill, left California to serve as one of Dennis Erickson's assistants. I know my Idaho football.

Anyway, what I was pointing out was that a Texas State move to I-A would be about as successful for the Bobcats as Idaho's move was. Idaho's move was ill advised and so would a move for Texas State.

[Tod]

Since I was the one who brought up Idaho, I thought I needed to respond to this post. Yes, I was well aware of Idaho's success as a I-AA school. I actually covered an Idaho game back in the late 1970s (still have the press guide from that season in my files) and a California junior college I covered from 1980-83 (West Hills College) was well connected with the Vandals. Two players from a championship West Hills program, WR Ronnie Oliver and DT-LB Sam Manoa (brother of former Penn State FB and NFL player Tim Manoa), transfered to Idaho and were very productive Big Sky Conference players. The coach at West Hills, Carl Ferrill, left California to serve as one of Dennis Erickson's assistants. I know my Idaho football.

Anyway, what I was pointing out was that a Texas State move to I-A would be about as successful for the Bobcats as Idaho's move was. Idaho's move was ill advised and so would a move for Texas State.

What Boise State had was the city of Boise. It helps a lot when you can fill the stadium. I know this may not work everywhere, but In the Northwest, Boise is a huge city (the biggest from Seattle to Salt Lake City to Denver to Minneapolis). Spokane may be bigger, now that I think about it, but Boise is large for this area, regardless. :twocents:

[bobcatfan06]

It's stupid and the ASG is a bunch of nimwits anyway. I'm voting "No" I can tell you that.

[TexasTerror]

It's stupid and the ASG is a bunch of nimwits anyway. I'm voting "No" I can tell you that.

What do you think about the student body's vote? Will they vote FOR or AGAINST Kyle V Morris and his proposition? I wonder if the SLC Commish will have anything to say about it during his interview on I-AA Waves this Tuesday...

[Blueandwhitefightfight]

I think the TxSt Student Govt. has good intentions, but is going about this totally wrong. By making a negative threat to cut funding, that is only going to hurt. It will hurt by #1- pissing a lot of folks off (especially the big folks in charge of things) and #2- hurting the program and student athletes should it not happen.


They could be a LOT more productive (and most likely successful) by telling the Ath. Dept. that they will increase funds by 50% instead of cutting them by 50%. This makes it look like the students still care, and are willing to help cover the costs of such a move. Right now, the Student Govt. is showing a lot of ignorance. They clearly did not research and take into account how much such a move costs. I am a member of the Student Govt. Association at Georgia Southern and we discussed the Tx. St. "threat" at one of our meetings. I brought up the point of how much it takes to make the I-A jump. We all came to the conclusion that the Tx. St. Student Govt. is basically going to drive their program straight into the ground by handling this situation the way they are.

What they should do is

#1- Suggest a I-A feasibility study conducted by an independent firm and either pay for it, or help pay for a large part of it. A such study would figure out the costs of such a jump, and if there is even a need for it to begin with.
#2- They should release the results of the study to the student population and the general public.
#3- They should take appropriate actions in a positive way that shows they are willing to take responsibility for their school.


If anyone knows how to get in contact with a member of the Texas St. Student Govt., please inform them of this or put them in contact with me so I can discuss this with them. I can't have Tx. St. folding before my GSU Eagles get revenge.

[TexasTerror]

Your best bet is Kyle V Morris who happens to be the sponsor of the bill and a candidate for their student body president position - [email protected]

(Courtesy of the Texas State - San Marcos Associated Student Government web site)

I'm surprised Morris, who has posted on BobcatFans.com before hasn't come out and say his thoughts for his proposal that is now before a student body referendum.

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

I'm surprised Morris, who has posted on BobcatFans.com before hasn't come out and say his thoughts for his proposal that is now before a student body referendum.

hahaha...that's cuz he's scared. he's obviously appealing to the students who know nohing about the benefits of staying I-AA. All the care about is "playing someone they've heard of." That was, OR AT LEAST I THOUGHT, until the last regular season game (vs. SHSU) and the playoff run. Despite our playoff run (and the FUN associated with it), our students would (seemingly) rather compete (and lose) to the UTs of the world than win against lesser-known I-AA schools.

TT, I have to agree with you. I know Morris personally...and I still think he's a douche.

Hopefully, my letter to the editor in Monday's university paper will knock some sense into the ignorant minds.

AGAINST MOVING I-A!!!

[TexasTerror]

The voting goes on today and tommorrow...

Well, here's how the referendum was described on the ballot today (courtesy of GoGatos from the BobcatFans.com forum):

"The Associated Student Government has passed legislation to separate funding for athletics from the Student Service Fee Account. The legislation recommends applying the student service fee funds currently assigned to athletics toward a new Intercollegiate Athletic Fee account that would become the primary funding source for the Department of Intercollegiate Athletics. Your "yes" or "no" vote for this proposal will not change the amount of fees that you pay as a student at Texas State University. "

Sounds a bit misleading. That's not what Kyle Morris and company were saying. They were threatening the athletic department as it relates to a I-A move...wonder what the Bobcat fan faithful will say about this misleading referendum...

[Freightliner]

Hopefully, my letter to the editor in Monday's university paper will knock some sense into the ignorant minds.

AGAINST MOVING I-A!!!

Looking at the paper now...which one was it...cause I didnt see it.

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

The voting goes on today and tommorrow...

Well, here's how the referendum was described on the ballot today (courtesy of GoGatos from the BobcatFans.com forum):

"The Associated Student Government has passed legislation to separate funding for athletics from the Student Service Fee Account. The legislation recommends applying the student service fee funds currently assigned to athletics toward a new Intercollegiate Athletic Fee account that would become the primary funding source for the Department of Intercollegiate Athletics. Your "yes" or "no" vote for this proposal will not change the amount of fees that you pay as a student at Texas State University. "

Sounds a bit misleading. That's not what Kyle Morris and company were saying. They were threatening the athletic department as it relates to a I-A move...wonder what the Bobcat fan faithful will say about this misleading referendum...

yah, it is REALLY misleading! :bang: :bang: :bang:

I even got a phone call from him when he learned I was strongly against this referendum and was gaining some support from people around campus. He claims that it isn't a threat...mmmhmmm, yeah right. It's great how he forgot to mention cutting the athletic budget by 50%...:nono:

[darussian12]

well first some of you guys were freaked out that students would blindly support the ref because it forces the admin into moving the football program to I-A and that a lot of our students would support it because they want to play "known" I-A teams even though we would get out asses handed to us right now...but now that there is no I-A language in there it still raises a stink with you guys...which way is it...now if it passes you cant blame the whole I-A stupidity on behalf of the students :-) ...whatever happens happens...hell has anyone even figured out if ASG themselves can cut a budget for something on their own...im not worried either way...5 years is a while off...im more worried about this coming season

[TexasTerror]

well first some of you guys were freaked out that students would blindly support the ref because it forces the admin into moving the football program to I-A and that a lot of our students would support it because they want to play "known" I-A teams even though we would get out asses handed to us right now...but now that there is no I-A language in there it still raises a stink with you guys...which way is it...now if it passes you cant blame the whole I-A stupidity on behalf of the students :-) ...whatever happens happens...hell has anyone even figured out if ASG themselves can cut a budget for something on their own...im not worried either way...5 years is a while off...im more worried about this coming season

ASG can not change a budget on their own...nor could any student governing board in the state of Texas. Now, granted students do have the majority on Student Service Fee commitees in the state (I served on one in 2005), but I do not think they could pull that one off.

I know at SHSU, the President mandated some things that just could not be touched, one of them being 50% towards athletics. So, when the SSF goes up, so does the athletics budget. Of note is, SSF goes straight into athletic scholarships for student-athletes and of course at both our institutions, this allows for free tickets to games.

[darussian12]

im still not seeng the big deal...i guess its settled that the budget isnt going anywhere from the Teis statements to the Statesman and the fact that AGS cant change the fee distribution on their own...so in effect the students are voting to lower their SSF fee and to create a new athletic fee...i dont remeber where but i know i read it somewhere but that students have to approve fee increases...so hey we have stingy students some year and they wont approve increases in this new fee if this ref gets passed...they arent going to be voting to lower the fee...then AD has the same rate...but hey AD becomes successful and thinks they need more money to continue sucess hey students will get to approve tossing more money to the AD each sem/approve what they are doing...and hey if there is a magical day that the AD can become self sustainiing then this fee will go away/down since it wont be tied to some SSF that will always be around no matter what the budget situation of the university is.

[TexasTerror]

im still not seeng the big deal...i guess its settled that the budget isnt going anywhere from the Teis statements to the Statesman and the fact that AGS cant change the fee distribution on their own...so in effect the students are voting to lower their SSF fee and to create a new athletic fee...i dont remeber where but i know i read it somewhere but that students have to approve fee increases...so hey we have stingy students some year and they wont approve increases in this new fee if this ref gets passed...they arent going to be voting to lower the fee...then AD has the same rate...but hey AD becomes successful and thinks they need more money to continue sucess hey students will get to approve tossing more money to the AD each sem/approve what they are doing...and hey if there is a magical day that the AD can become self sustainiing then this fee will go away/down since it wont be tied to some SSF that will always be around no matter what the budget situation of the university is.

Students do not have to approve fee increases. They only have to approve them if it's a 10% or over increase, which is why many schools will not jump their fees up more than 8, 9% at a given time. Ah, tuition deregulation at it's best. Thanks to the Texas GOP! :)

In essence, if an athletic department fee is created, it is not something the students could control so it could go up or down without student controling the day. I think people are absolutely confused about how fees work in the state of Texas. The students have no control.

There's a chance you could put in this athletic fee and SSF would not change at all. At Sam, we took the Health Center fee out of SSF (similar to what your trying to do with athletics). The SSF did not go down, it stayed the same and here we were paying a seperate fee for our Health Center. I could see the same thing happening with this athletics fee. And that's a large chunk, 50%!

[darussian12]

i guess i was just thinking of the large increases you were talking about...because last year we had to vote on increasing the Rec fee by a lot, this year voting on increasing the bus fee and creating this new fee...so we do get some sort of say in the way of fees it looks like...but yeah i dont claim to know how they work

[TexasTerror]

i guess i was just thinking of the large increases you were talking about...because last year we had to vote on increasing the Rec fee by a lot, this year voting on increasing the bus fee and creating this new fee...so we do get some sort of say in the way of fees it looks like...but yeah i dont claim to know how they work

New fees have to be approved too (such as your proposed athletic fee or the fee we passed at SHSU not too long ago, the Health Center fee)...but this vote does not have the power to create a fee, just gives ASG the power to move forward with their plans...am I right?

[TexasTerror]

The referendum passed. Still a bit confusing what it means because ASG passed one thing in their meeting and the students passed another before the student body...

Students also approved the second referendum on the ballot, which separates the athletic department funding from the student service fee. The creation of the intercollegiate athletic service fee received roughly 80 percent of the total votes and will be presented to the 80th Texas Legislature in 2007 for final approval.

The separation of the fee received support prior to the election from ASG, the student service fee committee and the athletic department, which receives almost $4 million in funding from the student service fee.

The legislation supporting the new fee passed in the ASG senate in March and calls for a 50 percent cut in five years if the football program is not elevated to Division 1-A. Athletic Director Larry Teis said that the promotion of the football program was not his reason for supporting the new fee.

“My concern is with separating the athletic funding from the student service fee. We take away so much from the student service fee; it’s just better for the students when they don’t have to deal with athletics’ increases,” Teis said in a previous interview with The Star.

The increases Teis referred to are the annual increases athletic scholarships incur on the student service fee due to increases in tuition. With the intercollegiate athletic service fee, the student service fee will not be subject to those increases.

http://star.txstate.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1414

[NSUDemon98]

54-27 and 49-7.....

I think that covers the talk for now...

And NO, Texas State should not make a lateral or move down to I-A. (Moving to an I-A conference with no chance at a national championship, not for me.) The opportunities for national championships are where my desires reside…. I-AA all the way!!! Every year as long as you finish with 7 or 8 wins you have a shot. Obviously, we need to repeat that consistently, but the opportunity is always there.

Why not bring up game results with McNeese prior to the past two seasons?

I agree with Retro, you had a good season and won your first SLC title in 20 years, the 2006 season is done and so is your gloating.

If anyone has the right to gloat about football in the SLC it is the Cowboys, followed by the Demons...xcoffeex

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

The way the referendum was FINALLY explained to me that the "Division I-A in five years" thing was basically an empty threat as far as the budget cut goes. (Notice that language wasn't mentioned on the ballot...) What the ASG apparently wants to see is preparation when/if we go to Division I-A. Too bad this wasn't explained before the elections (and too bad the TxSt. media went CRAZY with this threat) or I wouldn't have caused nearly as much of a stir. In fact, since I am a music major, the passing of this bill benefits me. Our trips are mostly funded by the student service fee, and with athletics using a huge chunk of it, we weren't able to travel as much in the past. Hopefully this new referendum will benefit everyone involved...

Maybe Mr. Morris isn't as clueless as we all thought...

[TexasTerror]

Maybe Mr. Morris isn't as clueless as we all thought...

I am sure many of us could've told you that...

Our current SGA President at SHSU is far worse, but our new one may be an improvement, though still pretty awful...

[TxState_GO_CATS!]

According to Kyle V Morris, it seems like the fee would remain stationary, thus taking away money from the athletic department and "cutting student costs" to athletics. He seems to feel they can financially sustain themselves. Um, Kyle? How many athletic departments can financially sustain themselves without any sort of student fee, especially when it's scaled back as much as you guys seemingly would?

I guess this is what an in ill-informed student government would do to you...
http://star.txstate.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1277&Itemid=50

oh...so i guess you were one of the many who didn't think Mr. Morris was clueless...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: