Goodbye Prep School, Hello Fordham

[DFW HOYA]

I was going to put this in the Academic Index discussion (how does one go from a non-qualifier to a scholarship recipient overnight) but it's probably a better topic that scholarships are opening doors at Fordham that are closed at six other PL schools.

Excerpt:
"Scott was due to report to the Atlanta Sports Academy July 10, but the day before learned that he was academically eligible for college. Suddenly the floodgates opened, and the former Eagle was left with a small window to make a very big choice. “July 9 they found out I was eligible and Fordham, Towson, Monmouth and Stony Brook all offered (full rides), so I canceled my plans (in Georgia),” said Scott."


News Article:
http://www.nj.com/gloucester-sports/index.ssf/2011/07/former_west_deptford_star_vaug.html

Atlanta Sports Academy:
http://www.atlantasportsacademy.com/Programs.html

[aceinthehole]

I was going to put this in the Academic Index discussion (how does one go from a non-qualifier to a scholarship recipient overnight) but it's probably a better topic that scholarships are opening doors at Fordham that are closed at six other PL schools.

Excerpt:
"Scott was due to report to the Atlanta Sports Academy July 10, but the day before learned that he was academically eligible for college. Suddenly the floodgates opened, and the former Eagle was left with a small window to make a very big choice. “July 9 they found out I was eligible and Fordham, Towson, Monmouth and Stony Brook all offered (full rides), so I canceled my plans (in Georgia),” said Scott."

http://www.nj.com/gloucester-sports/index.ssf/2011/07/former_west_deptford_star_vaug.html

Nice to see the NEC and Big South recruiting against a CAA team here.

That being said, a player going immediately from ineligible to scholly from Fordham, probably raises some eybrows at other PL institutions. I assume the AI may have more of an impact in this particular case.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The player's previous ineligibility could have been the result of a number of things, such as insufficient credit hours, etc., and not necessarily poor grades/SATs. I have no idea. But is sure doesn't reflect well on the PL to see Fordham jump after a kid on the cusp on eligibility like that.

[Seawolf97]

Nice to see the NEC and Big South recruiting against a CAA team here.

That being said, a player going immediately from ineligible to scholly from Fordham, probably raises some eybrows at other PL institutions. I assume the AI may have more of an impact in this particular case.

I kind of feel Fordham is half in and half out of the PL. This should draw an interesting reaction from other PL Programs , Fordham possibly going around the AI issue and full scholarship at the sametime.

[Bogus Megapardus]

On further review it was, indeed, the kid's poor grades and ACT score (he took the ACT? Not the SAT?) that made him ineligible:

http://blogs.courierpostonline.com/varsity/2011/07/17/vaughn-scott-goodbye-prep-school-hello-fordham/

Apparently Fordham now is scraping farther down at the bottom of the academic barrel. Shame on the Rams. I would hazard to guess that Fordham no longer deems itself bound by the Academic Index.

Says the fortunate young recruit, about Fordham:

“I was going to just take a visit and keep my options open, but I felt comfortable with the campus and what they were offering . . . . It has the best academics by far of the four schools. That’s kind of what won me over.’’

Keep it up, Rams, and it won't be for long.

[Ken_Z]

my understanding was that Fordham would continue to abide by the academic index during this weird transition period. assuming this is correct and this individual jumped from non-qualifier to qualifier who mets the ai requirements, then i have no problem with Fordham signing him.

[Bogus Megapardus]

my understanding was that Fordham would continue to abide by the academic index during this weird transition period. assuming this is correct and this individual jumped from non-qualifier to qualifier who mets the ai requirements, then i have no problem with Fordham signing him.

Qualifying under NCAA standards is a lot different than meeting PL academic index standards, as you well know. If he meets AI standards, then I have no problem whatsoever with the signing. The article suggests otherwise, however.

[RichH2]

It is an enormous leap from non-qualifier status to exceeding the PL AI floor. Seems doubtful . For the young man, the AI will not determine his academic success he may indeed do quite well at Fordham . Heck, I cold not even get admitted to Lehigh now and I graduated in the top 20% of my class.xreadx

Agree that it perhaps signals that Fordham has given up on any change in PL aid policy.

[DFW HOYA]

Fordham may not only have given up on PL scholarship changes, but eligibility changes (e.g. Index) as well.

PL minimum standards are not published, but the NCAA Division I standards are (see page 2):
https://web1.ncaa.org/eligibilitycenter/hs/d1_standards.pdf

[RichH2]

Good point DFW, perhaps Rams will be in the Big South in a yr or 2. I am more interested where we will be in a few yrs.

[jimbo65]

I have on excellent authority, God as a matter of fact, that the "Holy Spirit" enlightened this student athlete so that he fully complies with the lofty PL AI.

[Franks Tanks]

The AI is much maligned, but it does ensure that the incoming student-athlete has the basic abilities necessary to perform the required academic work. PL schools are certainly not as difficult to get into as an Ivy or Stanford, but it can be argued that the students are pushed just as hard. Fordham is a difficult school, and hopefully this young man can keep his head above water in the Bronx.

Also Fordham seems to be disregarding the AI rules at this point. They are already excluded from winning the PL championship or getting the auto bid. They have been reduced to a PL footnote, and the league really has no other recourse to penalize them for breaking a rule.

[aceinthehole]

Also Fordham seems to be disregarding the AI rules at this point. They are already excluded from winning the PL championship or getting the auto bid. They have been reduced to a PL footnote, and the league really has no other recourse to penalize them for breaking a rule.

I have been saying this since last season, once the "scholarship compromise" between the school and the PL was announced. Fordham doesn't count in league standings, won't be included in preseason league predictions, can't win the league's AQ, and its players are not eligible for league awards. In what sense do they still represent the Patriot League?

I think it is fair to say Fordham is no longer a member of the PL - they simply have a scheduling arraingement with all of the remaining members.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I have been saying this since last season, once the "scholarship compromise" between the school and the PL was announced. Fordham doesn't count in league standings, won't be included in preseason league predictions, can't win the league's AQ, and its players are not eligible for league awards. In what sense do they still represent the Patriot League?

I think it is fair to say Fordham is no longer a member of the PL - they simply have a scheduling arraingement with all of the remaining members.

As I understand it, the arrangement was done in such a way that Fordham can step back into the PL (if it wishes to do so) without "reapplying for membership" under the by-laws. This would happen, of course, after a scholarship decision. It appears as if that the self-imposed deadline for that decision now is coterminous with the the expiration of the PL-Fordham compromise.

[Seawolf97]

I have been saying this since last season, once the "scholarship compromise" between the school and the PL was announced. Fordham doesn't count in league standings, won't be included in preseason league predictions, can't win the league's AQ, and its players are not eligible for league awards. In what sense do they still represent the Patriot League?

I think it is fair to say Fordham is no longer a member of the PL - they simply have a scheduling arraingement with all of the remaining members.

You are right. They are more a quasi independent than a member of any conference. Their only hope of a playoff bid is an at large bid not an AQ. It will be interesting to see how this kid plays out. I'm hoping he does well both in the classroom and on the field.

[carney2]

Prediction: Unless someone (Colgate?) forces the scholarship issue between now and then, Fordham will take their ball and leave before the 2012 season.

As of this afternoon my crystal ball doesn't like the odds:

YES (for football scholarships or leaning that way) = 3 (Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh)

NO (against football scholarships or leaning that way) = 4 (Bucknell, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette)

Note that if/when Fordham does leave, the anti-scholarship crowd would gain a real advantage. An intervention by the service academies is needed.

[dgtw]

I don't see the service acadamies dropping to FCS level. Or are they a special case for classification since the entire student body gets a free ride?

[Seawolf97]

No General or Admiral would ever let their academies drop a notch to FCS. Why should they ?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't see the service acadamies dropping to FCS level. Or are they a special case for classification since the entire student body gets a free ride?


No General or Admiral would ever let their academies drop a notch to FCS. Why should they ?

It's been discussed, I assure you.

[LUHawker]

It's been discussed, I assure you.

This is the first I've heard of the academies even discussing a move to FCS. Do you have any more color, BM?

[DFW HOYA]

It's been discussed, I assure you.

In theory, maybe, but nothing more than that. As long as the USAFA is playing I-A football, no general or admiral worth his stars will stomach anything but the same level for their respective academy. No 3-star wants to walk the corridors of the Pentagon and hear his peers jeer at him by asking why the Air Force can aspire to the best and the Army has to settle for the PL.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This is the first I've heard of the academies even discussing a move to FCS. Do you have any more color, BM?

In the 80s and early 90s the Academies played pretty much a 1-aa schedule, and when they joined the PL I recall a push to include them in football as well. I then recall a grand decision and an "announcement" that Academy football would be strictly 1-a. The reasons for this vary depending on who you talk to, but from what I gather they didn't want to be limited to the northeast (alums can be found everywhere), they wanted nationwide exposure to help with military enlistment, and they wanted to play away games in areas near large military bases.

1998 seems to be the year that Army transitioned away from multiple 1-aa games for good. It looks as if they've played only UNH, URI and Holy Cross since then.

[Bogus Megapardus]

In theory, maybe, but nothing more than that. As long as the USAFA is playing I-A football, no general or admiral worth his stars will stomach anything but the same level for their respective academy. No 3-star wants to walk the corridors of the Pentagon and hear his peers jeer at him by asking why the Air Force can aspire to the best and the Army has to settle for the PL.

The Generals have to put up with getting beat by the PL in all other sports, however. Since both Army and Navy are full PL members, at least someone doesn't look at it as "settling." As a matter of fact, Navy's choice not to participate in PL football means that the rest of the league must "settle" for games played on a cheap plastic tarpaulin stretched between some rented construction fencing over near 37th and O Street in D.C. More than a few jeers have been heard for the decision to perpetuate that abidance.

[DFW HOYA]

In the 80s and early 90s the Academies played pretty much a 1-aa schedule, and when they joined the PL I recall a push to include them in football as well.

The early 1990's was mostly a I-A schedule for Army, with 2-3 I-AA games a year. Navy dropped its I-AA games steadily.


ARMY
1990: Holy Cross, VMI, Wake Forest, Duke, BC, Lafayette, Syracuse, Rutgers, Air Force, Vanderbilt, Navy
1991: Colgate, North Carolina, Harvard, Rutgers, Citadel, Louisville, BC, Vanderbilt, Air Force, Akron, Navy
1992: Holy Cross, North Carolina, The Citadel, Lafayette, Rutgers, Wake Forest, E. Michigan, Air Force, N. Illinois, BC, Navy
1993: Colgate, Duke, VMI, Akron, Temple, Rutgers, BC, W. Michigan, Air Force, Lafayette, Navy
1994: Holy Cross, Duke, Temple, Wake Forest, Rutgers, Louisville, The Citadel, BC, Air Force, BU, Navy

NAVY
1990: Richmond, Virginia, Villanova, BC, Air Force, Akron, JMU, Notre Dame, Toledo, Delaware, Army
1991: Ball St., Virginia, W&M, Bowling Green, Air Force, Temple, Delaware, Notre Dame, Tulane, Wake Forest, Army
1992: Virginia, BC, Rutgers, N. Carolina, Air Force, Delaware, Notre Dame, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Rice, Army
1993: Virginia, E. Illinois, Bowling Green, Tulane, Air Force, Colgate, Louisville, Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, SMU, Army
1994: San Diego St., Virginia, Bowling Green, Duke, Air Force, Lafayette, Louisville, Notre Dame, Tulane, Rice, Army


As a matter of fact, Navy's choice not to participate in PL football means that the rest of the league must "settle" for games played on a cheap plastic tarpaulin stretched between some rented construction fencing over near 37th and O Street in D.C. More than a few jeers have been heard for the decision to perpetuate [I]that abidance.

Jeers aside, what is the league doing about it?

[DetroitFlyer]

In the 80s and early 90s the Academies played pretty much a 1-aa schedule, and when they joined the PL I recall a push to include them in football as well. I then recall a grand decision and an "announcement" that Academy football would be strictly 1-a. The reasons for this vary depending on who you talk to, but from what I gather they didn't want to be limited to the northeast (alums can be found everywhere), they wanted nationwide exposure to help with military enlistment, and they wanted to play away games in areas near large military bases.

1998 seems to be the year that Army transitioned away from multiple 1-aa games for good. It looks as if they've played only UNH, URI and Holy Cross since then.

Wow, sounds like they should join the PFL. We would be happy to have them and you can even throw in Georgetown for good measure....

[visitor2]

On further review it was, indeed, the kid's poor grades and ACT score (he took the ACT? Not the SAT?) that made him ineligible

What's wrong with the ACT?

[Go...gate]

I think the young man has received a great opportunity to go to Fordham and I hope he does his best in the classroom and on the field. From such opportunities are great lives made.

Does this represent a step for Fordham away from the PL? Probably, but I'm not going to hold it against one kid.

[RichH2]

i dont think anyone is holding it against this kid. All of us should strive for the best possible . The only question is the direction of Ram football. Whether he can succeed academically at FU is up to him and some hard work. If he was a non qualifier as the facts appear to be then unlikely that he would come in any where near the minimum AI. Is it possible that even counting him the entire class may still come in w/in the AI ? Remember the purpose of AI floor was too prevent FU from recruiting kids no one else in PL could get admitted. Safe to conclude that Fordham has moved on. Sad for both Rams and PL. Schollie ultimatum probably dealt a final death blow.

[Go...gate]

i dont think anyone is holding it against this kid. All of us should strive for the best possible . The only question is the direction of Ram football. Whether he can succeed academically at FU is up to him and some hard work. If he was a non qualifier as the facts appear to be then unlikely that he would come in any where near the minimum AI. Is it possible that even counting him the entire class may still come in w/in the AI ? Remember the purpose of AI floor was too prevent FU from recruiting kids no one else in PL could get admitted. Safe to conclude that Fordham has moved on. Sad for both Rams and PL. Schollie ultimatum probably dealt a final death blow.

I agree with your conclusion - IMO, December was the death knell. The PL Prexies have "rope-a-doped" the scholarship issue to death.

I do know, however, that Fordham's and Georgetown's Jesuits (not to mention all Jesuit schools) have been known to take some youngsters who were marginal but paid the price and succeeded. I wish this kid the best.

[Andy]

"If the kid stays out of trouble and helps us win, I could care less if he has a 2.2 or a 4.0. I would ask is that he does his best academically while he's here."

The above quote is from the FU board and pretty much sums up the sentiment there. You either believe in and abide by standards or you don't. They were in the wrong league from the get go. Good riddance.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A few things to remember about this particular case.

* It's reasonable to assume that he's not a BCS-recruited guy, here. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it wasn't as if Fordham recruited him away from LSU and Ohio State.
* Many schools were probably not available for recruiting because they were out of scholarships. The four remaining happened to have some left over.
* Towson (a former PL member), Monmouth (a possible future PL member) and Stony Brook (a good academic school) were the destination schools the Rams were recruiting against - not exactly renegade programs. I'd venture to say that many, many, many times these same four schools come to loggerheads over the same types of kids. Good academic kids.

The reaction here - that the fact that, by association that Fordham is recruiting with Towson, Monmouth, and Stony Brook, that Fordham is "sullying the AI and the Patriot League" (paraphrasing) - is the reason why the PL is not expanding. Some think that Fordham is "sullying their program". Some do not.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The reaction here - that the fact that, by association that Fordham is recruiting with Towson, Monmouth, and Stony Brook, that Fordham is "sullying the AI and the Patriot League" (paraphrasing) - is the reason why the PL is not expanding. Some think that Fordham is "sullying their program". Some do not.

LFN, I think the point is simpler than that. Fordham hardly is "sullying" its program nor should the recruit's character be assailed here or anywhere else. The only question is whether Fordham has chosen to abandon the academic index that the rest of the league must abide. To date, the Fordham administration has not seen fit to respond to that question directly, so people tend to speculate based on occurrences such as this.

This does not mean that Fordham's program becomes any more or less noble, or that PL schools will stop scheduling Fordham. It simply means that, after next year, the schedules will be discretionary and that Fordham (still) will be ineligible for the league title and its automatic bid. And it means that PL football unofficially is down to six participants.

[LUHawker]

[QUOTE=Lehigh Football Nation;1644547Monmouth (a possible future PL member) [/QUOTE]

LFN - Please, please, please don't turn Monmouth into the next Marist on your crusade to support the addition of another school to the PL. You show almost no selectivity in your quest to expand the PL. First it was Duquense, then LaSalle was floated briefly, then Marist (which you were a huge proponent of), then UNH and/or Maine and now Monmouth. Give me a break. You so want to see the PL expand, you will seemingly be happy with almost any candidate.

There is no easy, clear or likely solution to the PL's football expansion problem, so I think we all have to hope that schollies one day become a reality in the league and see how the tectonic plates of college football shift, and hope that the PL will be able to pick up a strong candidate that is a good fit. The past decisions of the league would suggest this is unlikely and the pool of good-fitting candidates is limited, at best, and not interested, at worst.

I appreciate the torch that you carry for Lehigh and the Patriot League, but on the expansion front, you are blinded by your own desire.

Peace.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN - Please, please, please don't turn Monmouth into the next Marist on your crusade to support the addition of another school to the PL. You show almost no selectivity in your quest to expand the PL.... You so want to see the PL expand, you will seemingly be happy with almost any candidate.

And you don't see the urgency of expansion that I do - seemingly content to wait for Villanova to abandon their dreams of the Big East, perhaps, or waiting for William & Mary to abandon games against Duke and North Carolina so they can willingly adopt an AI and play Lehigh and Bucknell on a regular basis.

The PL is a league that is losing football members. Fordham will almost certainly leave, and they'll definitely leave if the status quo is maintained. That makes six. So what is better, waiting for Villanova and losing the league, or gaining Marist and/or Monmouth and having a viable league with an autobid to the FCS playoffs?

[LUHawker]

And you don't see the urgency of expansion that I do - seemingly content to wait for Villanova to abandon their dreams of the Big East, perhaps, or waiting for William & Mary to abandon games against Duke and North Carolina so they can willingly adopt an AI and play Lehigh and Bucknell on a regular basis.

The PL is a league that is losing football members. Fordham will almost certainly leave, and they'll definitely leave if the status quo is maintained. That makes six. So what is better, waiting for Villanova and losing the league, or gaining Marist and/or Monmouth and having a viable league with an autobid to the FCS playoffs?

First, I am not waiting for Villanova. In years past, I thought VU would be a good fit, but have come to think less of that position. Second, last time I checked, even if Fordham chooses (is forced) to go elsewhere, the PL still has 6 viable football-playing members and that still qualifies for an auto-bid. Unless you think that one of these six is going somewhere, sometime soon, the playoff auto-bid is not in jeopardy.

You are correct, I do not see the sense of urgency for expansion that you do. I would rather have the PL wait for the 'right' opportunity/candidate, than force a bad one. I have a supreme sense of urgency for scholarships for the league, which, if they ever happen, will put the PL in a much better position, should a really good candidate become available. The obvious right fits within the FCS are limited to largely, Richmond, W&M, and VU. This is clearly not an option-rich list. There are a handful of D-III schools, that IF they were to upgrade could be good fits (Hopkins, Gettysburg, RPI) RPI is tops on my list here.

I would rather have the PL go scholly, retain Fordham and be prepared to take on one of these other schools should shifting conference allegiances make one available.

We both want expansion, but I prefer a wait and see approach rather than forcing a bad fit - and yes, every one of the schools you have recently proposed would be a bad fit for one reason or another.

[Bogus Megapardus]

LFN - Please, please, please don't turn Monmouth into the next Marist on your crusade to support the addition of another school to the PL. You show almost no selectivity in your quest to expand the PL. First it was Duquense, then LaSalle was floated briefly, then Marist (which you were a huge proponent of), then UNH and/or Maine and now Monmouth. Give me a break. You so want to see the PL expand, you will seemingly be happy with almost any candidate.

There is no easy, clear or likely solution to the PL's football expansion problem, so I think we all have to hope that schollies one day become a reality in the league and see how the tectonic plates of college football shift, and hope that the PL will be able to pick up a strong candidate that is a good fit. The past decisions of the league would suggest this is unlikely and the pool of good-fitting candidates is limited, at best, and not interested, at worst.

I appreciate the torch that you carry for Lehigh and the Patriot League, but on the expansion front, you are blinded by your own desire.

Peace.

I must agree. I'm not going to turn this into and expansion thread, but I have to think that the League oligarchy has some kind of long-term plan. Clearly, Marist/Duquesne/Monmouth/Bryant are not in the cards, so forget about them already. It could mean catching CAA cast-offs, bringing up Hopkins, Rochester or RPI from DIII or even getting American U to commence a program. No one knows, and the League is not saying.

[Bogus Megapardus]

And you don't see the urgency of expansion that I do - seemingly content to wait for Villanova to abandon their dreams of the Big East, perhaps, or waiting for William & Mary to abandon games against Duke and North Carolina so they can willingly adopt an AI and play Lehigh and Bucknell on a regular basis.

The PL is a league that is losing football members. Fordham will almost certainly leave, and they'll definitely leave if the status quo is maintained. That makes six. So what is better, waiting for Villanova and losing the league, or gaining Marist and/or Monmouth and having a viable league with an autobid to the FCS playoffs?

Schools that will NOT become PL members, ever:

Monmouth
Marist
Duquesne
Bryant
Delaware
Villanova
W&M
Richmond

It's best that we all simply forget about them, bid Fordham good luck and godspeed, and do what we can to keep the Hoyas in the fold. I'd rather have six stable football members than a hodgepodge of unrelated teams.

[Andy]

First, I am not waiting for Villanova. In years past, I thought VU would be a good fit, but have come to think less of that position. Second, last time I checked, even if Fordham chooses (is forced) to go elsewhere, the PL still has 6 viable football-playing members and that still qualifies for an auto-bid. Unless you think that one of these six is going somewhere, sometime soon, the playoff auto-bid is not in jeopardy.

You are correct, I do not see the sense of urgency for expansion that you do. I would rather have the PL wait for the 'right' opportunity/candidate, than force a bad one. I have a supreme sense of urgency for scholarships for the league, which, if they ever happen, will put the PL in a much better position, should a really good candidate become available. The obvious right fits within the FCS are limited to largely, Richmond, W&M, and VU. This is clearly not an option-rich list. There are a handful of D-III schools, that IF they were to upgrade could be good fits (Hopkins, Gettysburg, RPI) RPI is tops on my list here.

I would rather have the PL go scholly, retain Fordham and be prepared to take on one of these other schools should shifting conference allegiances make one available.

We both want expansion, but I prefer a wait and see approach rather than forcing a bad fit - and yes, every one of the schools you have recently proposed would be a bad fit for one reason or another.

Agreed on expansion (RPI would be awesome). Disagree on keeping FU with scholarships--ditch 'em, done, they're gone. They've shown their intentions--giving free rides to barely academically eligible kids. If LC were to grant FB scholarships they would almost certainly come with an academic component above league standards. "Just better football" won't justify the cost. Football fever on Rose Hill and "the slippery slope"....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Everyone here seems to think Monmouth will never be a PL member. I do not share your certainty.

But forcing this back to the subject at hand - does anyone really, honestly think Monmouth, Towson, Fordham, and Stony Brook are actually renegade programs jumping at the chance to grab NCAA clearinghouse kids? While hardly a perfect indicator, the football APR's of Monmouth (970), Towson (961) and Stony Brook (953) don't indicate any program in danger of NCAA violations, and seem to indicate programs that graduate kids. And specifically, Monmouth's APR is not out of line with the rest of the PL, either. (For example, it's better than the APR of AU's men's basketball program.)

Folks seem to automatically turn their noses up at what Fordham does (and, by extension, Monmouth), assuming without any evidence that they're somehow renegade programs mining the NCAA clearinghouse. Yet they discount the fact that without Fordham (and, by extension, Towson), the league wouldn't exist - and, more importantly, they were willing to adopt the AI and adhere to the principles of the PL in order to keep the league together. There is plenty of evidence that Towson's president and Fordham's president were - and still are - big believers in stringent academic requirements for their athletes. Yet the thanks they get are daggers from their rabid fans that they're noncompetitive, and snootiness from the PL fans that they're not "PL enough", whatever that may be.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I am legally obligated to point out that everyone's "dream candidate" for expansion in RPI would require the Engineers to undergo a transition from D-III to D-II and a transition from D-II to D-I, per NCAA rules. That means that RPI could - if they announced tomorrow - be eligible for a PL football championship in 2022 in the best case scenario, but it's likely it would take even longer to complete the transition. Other dream candidates, such as Johns Hopkins, would have the same issue.

Or the league could adopt football scholarships, and (fingers crossed) keep Fordham - who is already ostensibly a PL member.

So, what's your choice again?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Everyone here seems to think Monmouth will never be a PL member. I do not share your certainty.

But forcing this back to the subject at hand - does anyone really, honestly think Monmouth, Towson, Fordham, and Stony Brook are actually renegade programs jumping at the chance to grab NCAA clearinghouse kids? While hardly a perfect indicator, the football APR's of Monmouth (970), Towson (961) and Stony Brook (953) don't indicate any program in danger of NCAA violations, and seem to indicate programs that graduate kids. And specifically, Monmouth's APR is not out of line with the rest of the PL, either. (For example, it's better than the APR of AU's men's basketball program.)

Folks seem to automatically turn their noses up at what Fordham does (and, by extension, Monmouth), assuming without any evidence that they're somehow renegade programs mining the NCAA clearinghouse. Yet they discount the fact that without Fordham (and, by extension, Towson), the league wouldn't exist - and, more importantly, they were willing to adopt the AI and adhere to the principles of the PL in order to keep the league together. There is plenty of evidence that Towson's president and Fordham's president were - and still are - big believers in stringent academic requirements for their athletes. Yet the thanks they get are daggers from their rabid fans that they're noncompetitive, and snootiness from the PL fans that they're not "PL enough", whatever that may be.

I will speculate that the typical incoming scholarship football recruit at Monmouth U. possesses academic credentials considerably exceeding the mean of the institution's student body as a whole. So at least they have that going for them, which is good.

But I don't think that's necessarily everything that the League presidents (including the Service Academies, of course) have in mind.

[RichH2]

I too have my hopes for some sort of merit aid. I also want to retain our ties to the Ivies but not at the cost of developing our own identity. Expansion , w/o an academic fit, has not and will not succeed. Fordham appears gone. Until PL honcos take a stand and actually make a decision there will be no answers. Real Q is whether Hoyas can hold on. A 5 school conference would pretty much remove us as any kind of entity on a national scale.

[Andy]

" RPI could - if they announced tomorrow - be eligible for a PL football championship in 2022 in the best case scenario"

Ouch!

However, not "snooty" at all to expect members to believe in our remaining founding principle, athletes who are "academically representative of their class," and to abide by the rules. Academics seem to be on the rise in PL football and FU is going in the other direction.

[Bogus Megapardus]

"RPI could - if they announced tomorrow - be eligible for a PL football championship in 2022 in the best case scenario."

Hopkins and RPI both have grandfathered scholarship DI teams. If it means resolving lingering contentiousness among other DIII schools over that issue, then maybe the NCAA would allow a full jump to DI for those schools without the mandatory waiting period.

That would exclude University of Rochester, regrettably. Rochester has the academics, football tradition, facilities, endowment and location to be a perfect PL fit.

Poor Gettysburg really missed the boat when most of its traditional rivals moved up to Division I. Bad call on its part.

[TheValleyRaider]

Hopkins and RPI both have grandfathered scholarship DI teams. If it means resolving lingering contentiousness among other DIII schools over that issue, then maybe the NCAA would allow a full jump to DI for those schools without the mandatory waiting period.

That's a long shot at best. And even then, I doubt the NCAA would even consider allowing them to expedite the process beyond skipping D-II, and even then they'd probably have an extended transition to make up for it. I'd love Hopkins and/or RPI in the League, but those are pipe dreams right now

I think LFN is right in this circumstance, even if he is slightly more alarmist than I (but that's probably more to my nature than anything else). While 6 is certainly the minimum for playoff eligibility, it is hardly in the League's interest to operate at the minimum, especially when they are doing so in part to maintain competitive restrictions that may or may not be necessary

Admittedly, most of my AI knowledge comes from LFN and John Feinstein, but IIRC, exceptions to the AI are permitted through permission of the rest of the League. Do we know that Fordham has had no contact with the rest of the League regarding this particular recruit? Or, even if they haven't, that this somehow represents a real pattern on Fordham's part to disregard League rules?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

bump sorry fella's gotta get some threads between yesterdays triv and today's.

[DFW HOYA]

And you don't see the urgency of expansion that I do - seemingly content to wait for Villanova to abandon their dreams of the Big East, perhaps, or waiting for William & Mary to abandon games against Duke and North Carolina so they can willingly adopt an AI and play Lehigh and Bucknell on a regular basis.

I think the urgency is justified. And the prognosis is not favorable.

First, no one is coming onboard with the premise of non-scholarship football and de facto Ivy League admissions. How does a school like Marist (accepted SATs from 1060-1220) or Monmouth (990-1170) even match it, and frankly, why would they ever want to? There simply aren't any remaining schools willing to accept both and get beaten down (a la Georgetown) for a decade to do so.

Second, you cannot build stability by hoping that a Division III school is going to move ALL its sports into Division for the satisfaction of playing Bucknell and Holy Cross in football. It's one thing to cast out a wide net as the WAC is doing to survive, but these are still D-I schools. Anyone proposing a deep dive into D-III only reinforces the low reputation the PL already has among many conferences. And, any prior move to consider scholarships probably sent these schools away years ago.

Third, a six team league with no visible means of expansion now relies on Georgetown University, (which has actually decreased football spending under Kevin Kelly's tenure), to hold an autobid together. At the time Georgetown joined, the PL was the only realistic means of scheduling Ivy League opponents. This is no longer the case--when Dartmouth is calling up Sacred Heart and Butler, suddenly the need to be a PL member to get calls returned drops noticeably. Kelly has not commented on the growing competitive imbalance of the PL and probably won't, but the losing seasons cannot continue for him indefinitely. Georgetown could one day decide it can still play Ivy schools as an independent or convert to building a small scholarship base in the NEC, but at some point a dismal PL record could all but force a move. URI didn't want to leave the CAA either, but there was a point where basic non-competitiveness drove a decision.

Fourth, while the Pennsylvania schools are all together in this, there is always the possibility Colgate (or to a lesser extent, Holy Cross) sees Fordham's progress over the next few years and would consider parking its non-rev sports in the America East for a shot at the bigger time. To many Colgate fans, a loss at the Carrier Dome still beats a trip to the MSF every time. Remember, if any member other than Georgetown or Fordham leaves, the football league is, by rule, defunct, as PL bylaws which require five league schools to maintain the sport as a sponsored one. Theoretically, you could add Monmouth and Marist, lose Colgate, and still be out of business. What conference is going to take what's left?

Fifth: the East Coast has no incubator programs. American isn't adding football, nor any of the old MAAC schools. If they did, the sheer cost of maintaining a competitive PL program ($4M+) is a non-starter. And to add schools, you might have to seriously modify or remove the scholarship and academic pillars of the league, each of which built the PL in the first place.

So while the league saves its frequent flier miles to drive over to the country club for its media day for the benefit of the Morning Call and the Express Times, here is the central issue--you can have scholarships, or the Ivy Index, but not both. It can grow and endure uncomfortable change, or stand pat and fall by the waysides.

[Ken_Z]

scholarships and then South

[Go...gate]

scholarships and then South

Say what?

[RichH2]

I think some are looking at the Big South as a nice refugee camp with little academic restriction to await the CAA shakeout and the possiblity of a new FB conference in the EAST. maybe SoCon will expand to a Nothern division like the ACC.

[Go...gate]

Seems we can't have too many discussions without the membership/scholarship issue rearing its head.

I do not, for one moment, think the PL Presidents have any answer other than the status quo. This delay was taken purely because they had no answer for Fordham, or did not want to give an answer. To take this position as a league covers the schools and their leadership while a face-saving solution is sought. Only problem here is that there is no such solution, because the majority of the league does not want FB scholarships. I think Fordham will depart the league in December 2012.

We at Colgate who supported football were urged to write the President, Trustees, AD, Coach, anyone who had a say. I did - the response was tepid from the President, and no response was received from the BoT Chairman and AD. The only person who wrote back with any courtesy was Dick Biddle, our Coach. He sent a personal acknowledgement and expressed his appreciation for the generations of Colgate fans who loyally support football and understand its place in the traditions of Colgate University.

Based on the foregoing, I am no longer optimistic about scholarships. However, I will continue to support Colgate Football, even if it means that our future rests with playing the Ivies, NEC and occasional stretch game against whoever is in the CAA. Things will never be the same, though.

[colorless raider]

Seems we can't have too many discussions without the membership/scholarship issue rearing its head.

I do not, for one moment, think the PL Presidents have any answer other than the status quo. This delay was taken purely because they had no answer for Fordham, or did not want to give an answer. To take this position as a league covers the schools and their leadership while a face-saving solution is sought. Only problem here is that there is no such solution, because the majority of the league does not want FB scholarships. I think Fordham will depart the league in December 2012.

We at Colgate who supported football were urged to write the President, Trustees, AD, Coach, anyone who had a say. I did - the response was tepid from the President, and no response was received from the BoT Chairman and AD. The only person who wrote back with any courtesy was Dick Biddle, our Coach. He sent a personal acknowledgement and expressed his appreciation for the generations of Colgate fans who loyally support football and understand its place in the traditions of Colgate University.

Based on the foregoing, I am no longer optimistic about scholarships. However, I will continue to support Colgate Football, even if it means that our future rests with playing the Ivies, NEC and occasional stretch game against whoever is in the CAA. Things will never be the same, though.

I am not as pessimistic as you regarding scholarships although they will stall to the end. I, too, will continue financial support of the program nonetheless.

[Go...gate]

I am not as pessimistic as you regarding scholarships although they will stall to the end. I, too, will continue financial support of the program nonetheless.

Oh, absolutely - I supported them in the 1960's and I supported them when they were 0-11. They will continue to get my money.

I'm a lifer for Colgate Football - it has been a special part of my life.

[colorless raider]

I think the urgency is justified. And the prognosis is not favorable.

First, no one is coming onboard with the premise of non-scholarship football and de facto Ivy League admissions. How does a school like Marist (accepted SATs from 1060-1220) or Monmouth (990-1170) even match it, and frankly, why would they ever want to? There simply aren't any remaining schools willing to accept both and get beaten down (a la Georgetown) for a decade to do so.

Second, you cannot build stability by hoping that a Division III school is going to move ALL its sports into Division for the satisfaction of playing Bucknell and Holy Cross in football. It's one thing to cast out a wide net as the WAC is doing to survive, but these are still D-I schools. Anyone proposing a deep dive into D-III only reinforces the low reputation the PL already has among many conferences. And, any prior move to consider scholarships probably sent these schools away years ago.

Third, a six team league with no visible means of expansion now relies on Georgetown University, (which has actually decreased football spending under Kevin Kelly's tenure), to hold an autobid together. At the time Georgetown joined, the PL was the only realistic means of scheduling Ivy League opponents. This is no longer the case--when Dartmouth is calling up Sacred Heart and Butler, suddenly the need to be a PL member to get calls returned drops noticeably. Kelly has not commented on the growing competitive imbalance of the PL and probably won't, but the losing seasons cannot continue for him indefinitely. Georgetown could one day decide it can still play Ivy schools as an independent or convert to building a small scholarship base in the NEC, but at some point a dismal PL record could all but force a move. URI didn't want to leave the CAA either, but there was a point where basic non-competitiveness drove a decision.

Fourth, while the Pennsylvania schools are all together in this, there is always the possibility Colgate (or to a lesser extent, Holy Cross) sees Fordham's progress over the next few years and would consider parking its non-rev sports in the America East for a shot at the bigger time. To many Colgate fans, a loss at the Carrier Dome still beats a trip to the MSF every time. Remember, if any member other than Georgetown or Fordham leaves, the football league is, by rule, defunct, as PL bylaws which require five league schools to maintain the sport as a sponsored one. Theoretically, you could add Monmouth and Marist, lose Colgate, and still be out of business. What conference is going to take what's left?

Fifth: the East Coast has no incubator programs. American isn't adding football, nor any of the old MAAC schools. If they did, the sheer cost of maintaining a competitive PL program ($4M+) is a non-starter. And to add schools, you might have to seriously modify or remove the scholarship and academic pillars of the league, each of which built the PL in the first place.

So while the league saves its frequent flier miles to drive over to the country club for its media day for the benefit of the Morning Call and the Express Times, here is the central issue--you can have scholarships, or the Ivy Index, but not both. It can grow and endure uncomfortable change, or stand pat and fall by the waysides.

DFW, you are right about the Carrier Dome quote. I do go to the G'town game home and away, but the Syracuse game is special.

[RamRay]

Really? All this over a kid who wants to get the best education he can and selected a school based on academics over football prowess? Some assumtions and innuendo are made by some here without the benefit of hard facts, but it does not surprise me that Fordham is denegrated by some as was done in the old VOY forums.

First, in not one article I read on this subject did it state this kid had poor grades. The prevailing statement was "In fact Scott had the grade and was in a position to receive a college scholarship. His final GPA, which was not calculated until the end of June, combined with his ACT score was indeed good enough". But assumptions took hold with some and the smack started.
Second, for those who question ACT over SAT as a sign of sub-par performance, did it occur to anyone that perhaps Scott did better on the ACT so that is what was taken? Did you know that schools take either the SAT or the ACT for admission... including most PL schools?
Third, OK that some here put down Fordham....I have seen that for years on different boards by PL posters. Yet saying Fordham, Stony Brook and others are scraping the bottom of the barrel is not only insulting, but ignorant of the facts. As noted by some here, Towson was once a member of the PL. Stony Brook is a major research university, it is also a member of the highly regarded AAU, an academic research group that most likely will never see a PL team invited to join.
Forth, this case got a lot of publicity, but how many football palyers with similar backgrounds were/are quietly recruited by the upper tier PL teams to help assure good seasons? The same can be said for the Ivies, only that is not made public. I don't know if Fordham is keeping to the AI this year given it is a PL member in name (and scheduling) only, pending a decision on scholarships. I DO know Fordham did keep to the AI for it's 20 year membership in the PL and was a doormat for most of them.

I belong to that group of Fordham alums that want to stay in the PL (albeit with scholies), but stuff likes this makes it harder to convince other alums to stay.

[Franks Tanks]

Really? All this over a kid who wants to get the best education he can and selected a school based on academics over football prowess? Some assumtions and innuendo are made by some here without the benefit of hard facts, but it does not surprise me that Fordham is denegrated by some as was done in the old VOY forums.

First, in not one article I read on this subject did it state this kid had poor grades. The prevailing statement was "In fact Scott had the grade and was in a position to receive a college scholarship. His final GPA, which was not calculated until the end of June, combined with his ACT score was indeed good enough". But assumptions took hold with some and the smack started.
Second, for those who question ACT over SAT as a sign of sub-par performance, did it occur to anyone that perhaps Scott did better on the ACT so that is what was taken? Did you know that schools take either the SAT or the ACT for admission... including most PL schools?
Third, OK that some here put down Fordham....I have seen that for years on different boards by PL posters. Yet saying Fordham, Stony Brook and others are scraping the bottom of the barrel is not only insulting, but ignorant of the facts. As noted by some here, Towson was once a member of the PL. Stony Brook is a major research university, it is also a member of the highly regarded AAU, an academic research group that most likely will never see a PL team invited to join.
Forth, this case got a lot of publicity, but how many football palyers with similar backgrounds were/are quietly recruited by the upper tier PL teams to help assure good seasons? The same can be said for the Ivies, only that is not made public. I don't know if Fordham is keeping to the AI this year given it is a PL member in name (and scheduling) only, pending a decision on scholarships. I DO know Fordham did keep to the AI for it's 20 year membership in the PL and was a doormat for most of them.

I belong to that group of Fordham alums that want to stay in the PL (albeit with scholies), but stuff likes this makes it harder to convince other alums to stay.

Stony Brook is a very good university by all accounts, but their football team is not representive of their class. This past year when the Seawolves visited Fisher a 28 year old ex-con suited up for them, and created a stir by taunting and fighing. To their credit the staff did kick the kid off the team the next day from what I understand. Also a large portion of SBU's roster is made up of JC transfers. Not all JC transfers had poor grades coming out of high school, but one must admit it is the primary reason why an athlete capable of recieving a scholarship goes to a JC.

Also there are certainly cases where Ivy or PL teams try to bend the AI, but I don't believe their are too many cases like this one over the years.

[Fox 94]

Marist is happy in the PFL.

PL is dysfunctional.

[Franks Tanks]

Marist is happy in the PFL.

PL is dysfunctional.

One could argue that being in a league where your closest conference mate is an 11 hour drive away is also dysfunctional.

[Fox 94]

One could argue that being in a league where your closest conference mate is an 11 hour drive away is also dysfunctional.

One could also argue that it is still a better home than the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Marist is happy in the PFL.

PL is dysfunctional.

If more A-Sun teams come on board with non-scholarship football, you guys could be in a fantastic position with a seven-team non-scholly conference, a whole lot of trips down south, and three leagues (NEC, Ivy, PL) desperate for OOC games. I certainly don't blame you for going to the PFL - it was the right choice for you guys.

And it's hard to argue against the fact that the PL is dysfunctional. The perfect word to describe the situation.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I belong to that group of Fordham alums that want to stay in the PL (albeit with scholies), but stuff likes this makes it harder to convince other alums to stay.

Lighten up, Francis.

No one is against the kid getting his best opportunity. I hope he does well with the understanding that that there are no easy courses or majors at Fordham.

But if the articles are true, Fordham seems to have jumped after a kid who barely qualifies, academically, "for college." That suggests the NCAA minimums. It raises a legitimate question about whether Fordham continues to abide the PL Academic Index.

Despite numerous opportunities to do so, Fordham has not indicated publicly whether or not it still recruits and admits under the AI. We don't know if this kid's profile was submitted to the league office - something every other PL must do their recruits.

Like others, I would like to have Fordham remain in the PL. In fact, I'd like to have Fordham return as an all-sports member. However, I think that its decision to grant a full slate of football scholarships, plus its apparent reluctance even to address the issue of the Academic Index, raises concerns that are a legitimate topic for discussion amongst Patriot League followers.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Marist is happy in the PFL.

PL is dysfunctional.

Marist gets big props for maintaining its solid football program while the rest of its former conference folded like a lawn chair. The travel is costly, sure, but it's a lot less than scholarships. I like Marist as a school and I always check their weekend scores.

[DFW HOYA]

First, in not one article I read on this subject did it state this kid had poor grades. The prevailing statement was "[I]In fact Scott had the grade and was in a position to receive a college scholarship.

Fordham has every right to admit who it chooses, but one press report was clear about why he was considering prep school:

"All things pointed to him being a non-qualifier."
http://blogs.courierpostonline.com/varsity/2011/07/17/vaughn-scott-goodbye-prep-school-hello-fordham/

I would not be as concerned about ACT scores and the like, but the possible choice of Atlanta Sports Academy ought to have been a red flag as well. The "academy" is a school full of athletes, taking online correspondence courses solely designed to get kids qualified for a scholarship.

It's not for fans to know how or why a recruit has a specific GPA or standardized test score as they do. The larger question is whether this is a sign Fordham is moving away from a justly criticized but nonetheless agreed-to procedure by which the league follows on admissions, or some sort of aberration. A related question, and one which probably deserves its own thread, is this--who is Fordham planning to play in 2013? It's too late for all parties concerned if Fordham gives notice in December 2012 and then finds out half the league no longer plans to schedule them.

[Andy]

The persistent anti-scholarship argument is that scholarships will lower standards. We want to shake these people and point to the increased academic creds of our bball recruits. This $250,000 scholarship apparently based solely on athletic ability, void of an academic component, aids and abets the "enemy". Nice parting shot from FU.

[aceinthehole]

A related question, and one which probably deserves its own thread, is this--who is Fordham planning to play in 2013? It's too late for all parties concerned if Fordham gives notice in December 2012 and then finds out half the league no longer plans to schedule them.

I would love to hear what is being said at Fordham and around the PL regarding this question.

[Go...gate]

Marist gets big props for maintaining its solid football program while the rest of its former conference folded like a lawn chair. The travel is costly, sure, but it's a lot less than scholarships. I like Marist as a school and I always check their weekend scores.

Well said.

[Andy]

Marist gets big props for maintaining its solid football program while the rest of its former conference folded like a lawn chair. The travel is costly, sure, but it's a lot less than scholarships. I like Marist as a school and I always check their weekend scores.


Me, too. Agree to the AI, a few more mil in expenses and come on in, preferably in all sports. As you say, never gonna happen....

[Go...gate]

Me, too. Agree to the AI, a few more mil in expenses and come on in, preferably in all sports. As you say, never gonna happen....

I think Marist would have been fine over time, but that ship has sailed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://portal31nhr.blogspot.com/2011/08/yale-loses-two-offensive-linemen.html


Some of the freshmen, including running back Kahlil Keys and tight end Ryan Stanney, had NCAA clearinghouse issues and could not practice. Williams said the approval to let Keys practice came towards the end of practice. It doesn't look like any of the issues will be long-term ones.

Will Yale get the same scathing criticism that Fordham received for basically the same type of thing?

"It sure doesn't reflect well on the Ivy to see Yale accept kids on the cusp on eligibility like that."

"Apparently Yale now is scraping farther down at the bottom of the academic barrel."

"Yale seems to be disregarding the AI rules at this point."

[DFW HOYA]

Will Yale get the same scathing criticism that Fordham received for basically the same type of thing?

Clearinghouse issues are not always the same as eligibility/grade issues. Many times, clearinghouse issues can literally be paperwork delayed from the high school or from the College Board.

Georgetown once had a player held out because the title of an 11th grade course, "Introduction to Computers", did not meet Clearinghouse guidelines for "computer science" courses. The high school subsequently renamed it "Introduction to Computer Science".

[Andy]

http://portal31nhr.blogspot.com/2011/08/yale-loses-two-offensive-linemen.html



Will Yale get the same scathing criticism that Fordham received for basically the same type of thing?

"It sure doesn't reflect well on the Ivy to see Yale accept kids on the cusp on eligibility like that."

"Apparently Yale now is scraping farther down at the bottom of the academic barrel."

"Yale seems to be disregarding the AI rules at this point."

Please, there is no comparison:

Stanney - Four-time High Honor Roll… National Honor Society… Offered football scholarship to Bryant and academic scholarships to Marist and Jacksonville.Personal: Jon Ryan Stanney... Interested in economics or pre-med as a major and becoming a dentist or orthodontist.

Keyes - Posted by Staff Writer Eric Branch: Casa Grande running back Kahlil Keys, an accomplished public speaker with a 3.93 GPA, has turned down a full athletic scholarship from UNLV to attend Yale.

Yale will be getting a student that has a 3.7 overall grade point average and a 4.2 GPA in the first semester of his senior year. He is a serious student who plans to study law or “something to do with public relations.”

http://www.petaluma360.com/article/20100204/community/100209789

Three term Dean's List at Choate, National Honor Society in HS.

[Franks Tanks]

Please, there is no comparison:

Stanney - Four-time High Honor Roll… National Honor Society… Offered football scholarship to Bryant and academic scholarships to Marist and Jacksonville.Personal: Jon Ryan Stanney... Interested in economics or pre-med as a major and becoming a dentist or orthodontist.

Keyes - Posted by Staff Writer Eric Branch: Casa Grande running back Kahlil Keys, an accomplished public speaker with a 3.93 GPA, has turned down a full athletic scholarship from UNLV to attend Yale.

Yale will be getting a student that has a 3.7 overall grade point average and a 4.2 GPA in the first semester of his senior year. He is a serious student who plans to study law or “something to do with public relations.”

http://www.petaluma360.com/article/20100204/community/100209789

Three term Dean's List at Choate, National Honor Society in HS.

The kid turned down a ride to UNLV, but the Ivy's don't have talent

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The kid turned down a ride to UNLV, but the Ivy's don't have talent

Hell, he turned down rides at Marist and Jacksonville, too! So much for non-scholarship football! xlolx

[Andy]

Hell, he turned down rides at Marist and Jacksonville, too! So much for non-scholarship football! xlolx

"academic scholarships to Marist and Jack.." Academic was my point, maybe they give Lafayette's equivalent of a "Marquis Scholarship." Obviously these kids bear no academic resemblance to the FU kid.

[Andy]

The kid turned down a ride to UNLV, but the Ivy's don't have talent

We'll see him for 2 years, right FT?

Stanford had him ranked as their 4th best RB recruit!

Found this funny:

Now, just as an aside, Yale or UNLV? New Haven, Conn., or Sin City? The Ivy League or the Mountain West Conference? Put it this way: Five U.S. presidents and 19 U.S. Supreme Court justices have graduated from Yale.
And Ickey Woods has graduated from UNLV.
I’m not making fun — it’s a testament to Keys’ athleticism and intellect that he has a such a unique choice.
It’s just that we’re used to hearing about Empire athletes choosing between Sacramento State and Humboldt State.
Yale and UNLV? I’d never heard that one before./////////

http://www.pdpreps.com/2010/01/uncategorized/casa-grande-rb-keys-narrows-choice-to-yale-or-unlv/

[Franks Tanks]

We'll see him for 2 years, right FT?

Stanford had him ranked as their 4th best RB recruit!

Found this funny:

Now, just as an aside, Yale or UNLV? New Haven, Conn., or Sin City? The Ivy League or the Mountain West Conference? Put it this way: Five U.S. presidents and 19 U.S. Supreme Court justices have graduated from Yale.
And Ickey Woods has graduated from UNLV.
I’m not making fun — it’s a testament to Keys’ athleticism and intellect that he has a such a unique choice.
It’s just that we’re used to hearing about Empire athletes choosing between Sacramento State and Humboldt State.
Yale and UNLV? I’d never heard that one before./////////

http://www.pdpreps.com/2010/01/uncategorized/casa-grande-rb-keys-narrows-choice-to-yale-or-unlv/

UNLV and Yale are just about complete opposites. The young man made the correct choice, and if he is good enough he can certainly make it to the NFL from Yale.

[DetroitFlyer]

Hell, he turned down rides at Marist and Jacksonville, too! So much for non-scholarship football! xlolx

The correct term is "non-athletic scholarship" football. This is very typical of many of the players the PFL pursues and lands. I spoke to a Dayton recruit this weekend who chose between Princeton and Dayton. The kid is from Michigan and said he just felt like he fit in better at Dayton than Princeton. Of course his family can easily watch him play in Dayton. Not so much at Princeton. We have another player on the roster who turned down Yale to come to UD for very similar reasons, (Ohio resident). At the end of the day a kid and his family do not care if the scholarship is athletic or academic/need based.

[bojeta]

If the NCAA is as serious as they're saying they are about the new APR standards, some of these schools are going to have to start getting more selective on the academic qualifications of potential players. Cal Poly, UC Davis and others are ahead of the game on this since they have never solicited athletes they knew would have academic issues, but other programs are built on the "sneak `em in and keep `em eligible" format. With APR, this won't fly. The report released on the APR shortcomings of NCAA basketball programs was telling. In the Big West for instance, I believe only Cal Poly, Davis, LB State and UOP made the cut. Not even academically sound schools like UCSB were able to field a team made up of APR eligible athletes.

[aceinthehole]

The correct term is "non-athletic scholarship" football. This is very typical of many of the players the PFL pursues and lands. I spoke to a Dayton recruit this weekend who chose between Princeton and Dayton. The kid is from Michigan and said he just felt like he fit in better at Dayton than Princeton. Of course his family can easily watch him play in Dayton. Not so much at Princeton. We have another player on the roster who turned down Yale to come to UD for very similar reasons, (Ohio resident). At the end of the day a kid and his family do not care if the scholarship is athletic or academic/need based.

So doesn't this apply to Patriot League schools as well as Ivy and PFL?

[DFW HOYA]

At the end of the day a kid and his family do not care if the scholarship is athletic or academic/need based.

Yes they do! Unless Dayton offers all grants for financial aid...

[DetroitFlyer]

I am not saying that Dayton is going head to head with tOSU by offering all football players a full academic scholarship. We do recruit good students that qualify for academic aid.

http://www.udayton.edu/apply/undergraduate.php

Check this link to see what ANY student accepted to UD might receive in academic aid. Dayton routinely lands kids offered partial athletic scholarships to FCS or lower division programs. It is rare for us to land a true FBS recruit although it has happened on occasion. Some of the Ivies do not offer a full ride to all students.... Dayton has been able to provide more aid than some of the Ivies depending in large part on the income of the family. Oddly enough, higher income families often times have higher achieving students.... Ultimately, my point was that if it costs $20K/year to attend UD because of a 50% academic scholarship or $20K per year to attend a PL school on an "athletic grant in aid", known to the rest of the world as an athletic scholarship, then a student may choose to play at UD for the location, course of study, etc. In talking with many families inside and outside of UD, there are some that actually prefer academic and/or need based aid. That aid is there even if the student quits the football team. Not true for an athletic scholarship. Some view that as keeping their options open, you know like if they are struggling academically and not playing, maybe they can quit to focus on academics and not worry about having to leave school due to a lack of aid. It also helps to keep the coaching staff honest because they do not have the threat of not renewing an athletic scholarship on the table. I am not saying this model is right for every school. BUT it works at UD. We field a very competitive FCS level program almost every year, graduate our players, and do not get into trouble with the NCAA.

[DFW HOYA]

Ultimately, my point was that if it costs $20K/year to attend UD because of a 50% academic scholarship or $20K per year to attend a PL school on an "athletic grant in aid", known to the rest of the world as an athletic scholarship, then a student may choose to play at UD for the location, course of study, etc.

Well, that's an advantage Dayton has. Georgetown, Colgate, and the Ivies are 100% need based. There is no scholarship aid at Georgetown that is awarded on academic merit.

[Bogus Megapardus]

At the end of the day a kid and his family do not care if the scholarship is athletic or academic/need based.

I must sincerely disagree. It makes a huge difference to the student and his family, even if the distinction is more emotional than it is pragmatic.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well, that's an advantage Dayton has. Georgetown offers no academic scholarships, with or without sports.

Are you certain? I had thought that Georgetown maintained endowed scholarships in a wide number of academic disciplines.

[DFW HOYA]

Are you certain? I had thought that Georgetown maintained endowed scholarships in a wide number of academic disciplines.

Yes. Endowed scholarships are all need-based awards.

http://finaid.georgetown.edu/grantlist.htm

[DetroitFlyer]

I must sincerely disagree. It makes a huge difference to the student and his family, even if the distinction is more emotional than it is pragmatic.

Kids that come to UD often tell their friends and family that they received a scholarship to play football at Dayton. Often times the press even reports it that way. Unless you are a diehard FCS fan, (and most people are not), they take it at face value. Maybe it is different in the PL, you know that whole east coast thing....

[MplsBison]

Well, that's an advantage Dayton has. Georgetown, Colgate, and the Ivies are 100% need based. There is no scholarship aid at Georgetown that is awarded on academic merit.

Can you imagine if salaries were determined by such idiocy?

"You have an outstanding resume: head of your class, 4.0 GPA, teaching assistant of the year.....oh....but I see that your parents are wealthy. I'm sorry, but because of your parent's income we can only offer you minimum wage. But I trust that you'll have peace of mind knowing that the top wage will be going to your colleague because he comes from a trailer park."

Ideology gone wrong.

[MplsBison]

Kids that come to UD often tell their friends and family that they received a scholarship to play football at Dayton. Often times the press even reports it that way. Unless you are a diehard FCS fan, (and most people are not), they take it at face value. Maybe it is different in the PL, you know that whole east coast thing....

The NCAA will definitely want to know about this, as they track the number of scholarship equivalencies that players receive from the school. Right now they have Dayton pegged at zero equivalencies - but as you've just shown, this is a lie.

[DFW HOYA]

Can you imagine if salaries were determined by such idiocy?

Ah, welcome back.

A decision to offer aid to applicants who need it the most is not "ideology gone wrong", it is a decision by a private organization to spend its money where it sees fit, not where the government would decide it. Then again, Georgetown accepted only 18% of its incoming applicants and just 11% of transfers this spring, without considering their ability to pay in the decision. This too probably meets your disapproval.

[DetroitFlyer]

The NCAA will definitely want to know about this, as they track the number of scholarship equivalencies that players receive from the school. Right now they have Dayton pegged at zero equivalencies - but as you've just shown, this is a lie.


Wow, I honestly just feel sorry for you. Your comments are so off base and just designed to provoke, that it is even hard to respond in a rational manner. My recommendation to you is to change your handle to some school that you absolutely hate because by posting here you do the school you represent a massive disservice. I also truly hope that you are not a graduate and just a fan that enjoys rabble rousing on message boards. Sad, just sad....

[RichH2]

Flyer, your description of Mpls is more apt than most of our angry responses. It is indeed very annoying but you're right it is in fact very sad.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Flyer, your description of Mpls is more apt than most of our angry responses. It is indeed very annoying but you're right it is in fact very sad.

Since DetroitFlyer and RichH2 enviably have taken the noble, diplomatic approach, I shall continue with my uncalled-for, acerbic diatribe any time that MplsBison chimes in on a PL thread.

We must remain fair and balanced, after all. xrolleyesx

[RichH2]

Bogie,
Diatribes are excellent 'cept it seems to feed this guy. Not sure whether ire or pity is more apt for but please slap him when he comes. As I am not nearly as articulate I will enjoy your posts.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogie,
Diatribes are excellent 'cept it seems to feed this guy. Not sure whether ire or pity is more apt for but please slap him when he comes. As I am not nearly as articulate I will enjoy your posts.

I promise to remain the poster child for scathing, anonymous Patriot League haughtiness. Somebody has to do it. Otherwise, how do we maintain our cherished position on AGS as the most universally despised, unworthy playoff participants ever known?

As for MplsBison, he will tie the noose with which we will hang him. I'm told he looks great in braided hemp fiber.

[Go...gate]

I promise to remain the poster child for scathing, anonymous Patriot League haughtiness. Somebody has to do it. Otherwise, how do we maintain our cherished position on AGS as the most universally despised, unworthy playoff participants ever known?

As for MplsBison, he will tie the noose with which we will hang him. I'm told he looks great in braided hemp fiber.

I have tried to help you from time to time in this endeavour, Brother Bogus....

[RichH2]

Bogiexnodx, Made the mistake of reading your last post while sipping a libation, which I am now wearing from laughing so hard. Thanksxawesomex



Gentlemen you have done yeoman work. We may have to --dare I say it - summon the dreaded curmudgeon himself to slay this recalcitrant ne'er do well.xeekx

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Rich, they have dictionaries in the Twin Cities. Our erudite vocabularies can be countered with even more steaming heaps.

[cmaxwellgsu]

I've enjoyed this thread, not for the football but for the vocabulary.

[dgtw]

I went to high school with a guy who said a Divsion III school offered him a football scholarship. I said I thought DIIIs were non scholarship. He said they were, but said the coach told him if he went there, they would "work something out".

He wound up not going there or playing college football anywhere, but I thought it was interesting.

[Go...gate]

I went to high school with a guy who said a Divsion III school offered him a football scholarship. I said I thought DIIIs were non scholarship. He said they were, but said the coach told him if he went there, they would "work something out".

He wound up not going there or playing college football anywhere, but I thought it was interesting.

Have also heard a couple of stories like this. I am sure there is a fair share of "working out" going on at that level, too.

[colorless raider]

Have also heard a couple of stories like this. I am sure there is a fair share of "working out" going on at that level, too.

Go...gate, go to bed; its too late for a guy your age to be up posting.xlolx

[DetroitFlyer]

Have also heard a couple of stories like this. I am sure there is a fair share of "working out" going on at that level, too.

I'm certain that those FBS transfers that Mount Union lands from time to time are paying full tuition to attend....xrolleyesx.

[RichH2]

Rich, they have dictionaries in the Twin Cities. Our erudite vocabularies can be countered with even more steaming heaps.

No doubt but I am enjoying the repartee. All in good fun really, Mpls, as annoying as he is ,provides great fodder for board.

[Go...gate]

Go...gate, go to bed; its too late for a guy your age to be up posting.xlolx

How right you are! xpeacex

[MplsBison]

Ah, welcome back.

A decision to offer aid to applicants who need it the most is not "ideology gone wrong", it is a decision by a private organization to spend its money where it sees fit, not where the government would decide it. Then again, Georgetown accepted only 18% of its incoming applicants and just 11% of transfers this spring, without considering their ability to pay in the decision. This too probably meets your disapproval.

Of course not, there's more applications to Georgetown than spots open. What *would* meet my disapproval is Georgetown discriminating against applicants based on how much income their household makes, under the guise of "diversity". Doesn't matter if "poor" isn't a legally protected class - it's still discrimination to take a rich applicant over a poor applicant simply on the basis that Georgetown can then deny the rich applicant his fair share of financial aid.

[UAalum72]

So just as the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread (c. Anatole France), you would protect the rich from not getting their share of Georgetown's money.


Of course they're discriminating - at it's basic level, 'discriminate' merely means 'to make a choice', without implying a value judgement.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Of course they're discriminating - at it's basic level, 'discriminate' merely means 'to make a choice', without implying a value judgement.

Of course! I agree completely. Discrimination occurs ever day, by every single individual, in every decision that he or she makes.

Perhaps illegal discrimination is what the previous poster had in mind. There are a few (very few) discriminatory decisions that are illegal in college admissions. A college's decision to accept students who can pay tuition, as opposed to students who cannot (for whatever reason) pay tuition, is a discriminatory decision, but it is not an illegal instance of discrimination.

Let's say I were a car dealer. I may chose to sell a car to a person who can afford to pay for the car, while discriminating most abjectly against a person who cannot pay for the car. I may not refuse to sell a car to a person because that person is a woman, but I may refuse to sell a car to a woman who cannot pay for the car.

Even in a purely Marxist society (which, perhaps, the poster favors), discriminatory decisions regarding an individual's need, abilities and circumstances are both essential and encouraged.

In the final argument, I imagine what the poster is attempting to communicate here is nothing more than a personal, wholly subjective (and largely irrational) notion of "fairness" as applied on a case-by-case basis, without any regard to extrinsic circumstances. Indeed this is the very essence of irrationality - like a child who when refused a cookie cries, "that's not fair!"

[WestCoastAggie]

Can you imagine if salaries were determined by such idiocy?

"You have an outstanding resume: head of your class, 4.0 GPA, teaching assistant of the year.....oh....but I see that your parents are wealthy. I'm sorry, but because of your parent's income we can only offer you minimum wage. But I trust that you'll have peace of mind knowing that the top wage will be going to your colleague because he comes from a trailer park."

Ideology gone wrong.

Ok... Who left the door open!? xlolx

[dgtw]

I'm certain that those FBS transfers that Mount Union lands from time to time are paying full tuition to attend....xrolleyesx.

I have heard that the dirty little secret about DIII is that there are two groups. One just puts on the pads and has fun while paying to go to school. The other group, the one whre the champions come from, is really good about "working things out".

[DetroitFlyer]

I have heard that the dirty little secret about DIII is that there are two groups. One just puts on the pads and has fun while paying to go to school. The other group, the one whre the champions come from, is really good about "working things out".

I have no inside knowledge so I do not really know what goes on at Mount Union. It just seems odd to me that FBS level players end up there.... Maybe they really do transfer in with a 4.0 and get a full academic ride.... Very hard to ever know for sure unless someone talks.... We have those kinds of arrows flung in the PFL every year. Just how did school "X" land so many good players? Heck, the coach at Bobby Mo accused my Flyers of not playing above board after one of their many losses to the Flyers.... In fairness, Mount Union might be attracting FBS talent because they are Mount Union. They currently have an NFL player, (FBS transfer), in the NFL - drafted no less, and I notice that they had at least one FA signed to a preseason camp. So, some players might think the road to the NFL might be easier playing at Mount Union rather than tOSU....

[JoltinJoe]

Just found this thread and I'm finding it amusing.

Let's talk about this great and moral league, the Patriot League.

(1) The PL imposes a league-wide AI over Fordham's objection, but it tells Fordham when it pushes the scholarship issue, don't worry, we're going to add scholarships next year.
(2) Next year comes and the PL reneges on the deal, so Fordham goes scholarship.
(3) The PL is not "pure" when it comes to scholarships. League members give them out in every sport but football. However, there are a number of PL schools who do not count aid given to football players as athletic aid on the pretext (xlolx) that the aid given is strictly need-based. In truth, the only reasons why these schools oppose football scholarships is that they are supporting football while skirting Title IX requirements by not counting aid to football players as athletic aid.
(4) Fordham was able to transition to scholarships because it was all already supporting its Title IX requirements because (like Colgate and Lehigh), it accounted for football aid as athletic aid.

So spare me the sanctimony about the PL and its standards. Seriously, do we have to listen to some lay president of a Jesuit school put Fordham down for offering scholarships, when his school admits any McDonald's All-American basketball player with a GED?

Fordham doesn't need the PL. Frankly, it has a far more extensive national profile than most of the football playing members of the PL, like Lafayette or Bucknell. Our faculty is far more published and renowned, and our alumni are far more accomplished.

I appreciate the support that Colgate and Lehigh gave us on the scholarship issue. But I can leave the rest of the phonies behind and not give it a moment's thought.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL imposes a league-wide AI over Fordham's objection, but it tells Fordham when it pushes the scholarship issue, don't worry, we're going to add scholarships next year. (2) Next year comes and the PL reneges on the deal, so Fordham goes scholarship.

Such was not the case. The PL never promised Fordham scholarships. Fordham thought by forcing the PL's hand (as Holy Cross once did for basketball scholarships), the league would cave. Didin't happen.



So spare me the sanctimony about the PL and its standards. Seriously, do we have to listen to some lay president of a Jesuit school put Fordham down for offering scholarships, when his school admits any McDonald's All-American basketball player with a GED?

I've never heard Fordham put down for its own decisions, have you? And below are the high schools for the seven Georgetown students (all graduates) who arrived as McDonald's All-Americans. None were a GED candidate.

DeLaSalle H.S., New Orleans, LA
Rindge & Latin, Cambridge, MA
Murrah H.S., Jackson, MS
Indian River H.S., Chesapeake, VA
St. Anthony H.S., Jersey City, NJ
Gonzaga H.S., Washington, DC
Dunbar H.S., Baltimore, MD



Fordham doesn't need the PL. Frankly, it has a far more extensive national profile than most of the football playing members of the PL, like Lafayette or Bucknell. Our faculty is far more published and renowned, and our alumni are far more accomplished.

Well, fare thee well. How's the idea of hiring a high school coach play in the Bronx?

http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/varsityaces/football_greg_toals_farewell/

[JoltinJoe]

Such was not the case. The PL never promised Fordham scholarships. Fordham thought by forcing the PL's hand (as Holy Cross once did for basketball scholarships), the league would cave. Didin't happen.



I've never heard Fordham put down for its own decisions, have you? And below are the high schools for the seven Georgetown students (all graduates) who arrived as McDonald's All-Americans. None were a GED candidate.

DeLaSalle H.S., New Orleans, LA
Rindge & Latin, Cambridge, MA
Murrah H.S., Jackson, MS
Indian River H.S., Chesapeake, VA
St. Anthony H.S., Jersey City, NJ
Gonzaga H.S., Washington, DC
Dunbar H.S., Baltimore, MD



Well, fare thee well. How's the idea of hiring a high school coach play in the Bronx?

http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/varsityaces/football_greg_toals_farewell/

(1) You are misinformed.

(2) Yes, the G-Town hoopsters are all geniuses. xlolx

(3) How can you stand your own hypocrisy? (I won't even mention that G-Town long ago sold out its Jesuit heritage to become a faux Ivy, and lost its soul in the process. 46% of the grades awarded are As or A+s? Geez, an A used to mean something at a Jesuit university. And I was told that by perhaps your most famous alumnus).

[DFW HOYA]

How can you stand your own hypocrisy?

I've been accused of a few things on this board, but that's not one of them.

[JoltinJoe]

I've been accused of a few things on this board, but that's not one of them.

It was referring generally to the Georgetown hypocrisy, not you specifically.

Here's a quotation from your lay president, when comparing Fordham and Georgetown athletics:

I am not supportive of moving to a scholarship program. I don’t believe that fits the ethos and the culture of Georgetown, and I believe the way that the Patriot League is conducted is exactly the right place for us to be ...

So when is Georgetown leaving the Big East to run a non-scholarship PL basketball program?

[Go...gate]

Geez, guys, take it easy. Jolter, you know we're not all that sanctimonious (Hell, I have Fordham alums in my family going back a long time). You know that a lot of us want Fordham to stay in the PL very badly for football and we want scholarships, too.

DFW, Two words for you: Michael Graham. Georgetown has not always had Rhodes Scholars on its BB teams.

[DFW HOYA]

Geez, guys, take it easy. Jolter, you know we're not all that sanctimonious (Hell, I have fordham alums in my family going back a long time). You know that a lot of us want Fordham top stay in the PL very badly and we want scholarships, too. DFW, Two words for you: Michael Graham. Georgetown has not always had Rhodes Scholars on its BB teams.

Neither have most schools. Mike was inattentive in class and he'll be the first to say so, but he got married, raised a family and has been a successful businessman for many years since transferring out in 1985. I'm sure someone could pull up some GU track athlete or football player and lob the same insult, but most fans don't understand the tiering of sports at Georgetown, which the Fordham poster above obviously doesn't given his reaction to Jack DeGioia's comment, which caused absolutely no ruffling in Georgetown circles because people understand it to be this way--rather than only funding the NCAA minimum of 14 teams as many D-I schools do, a 29 sport program offers much more opportunity to students but with the understanding not all teams will be funded the same.

Sports at Georgetown are historically in three tiers, the fully funded "national" sports, the non- or low-scholarship "regional" sports, and the participation-based "local" sports. Sports like basketball, track, and more recently lacrosse have been fully funded, have some latitude on admissions, adn compete at a higher level and that's part of the fabric of the sports landscape at GU--those are the names and the teams you hear competing for NCAA honors as opposed to say, Georgetown baseball or tennis. Sports like football and crew came of age in the 1960's within a regional model, with less need for latitiude on admissions as a result. Its level of support (with scholarships or otherwise) is part of its place in the "culture" as was described. People at GU understand this.

That doesn't mean national sports are "right" and regional sports "wrong" or vice versa, it's how they grew up within a university's history. Example: Army and Navy take great care (and spend a lot) in football, but you don't hear as much about their track teams, for instance. Should the academies also spend millions on its track teams to become nationally relevant? Of course not--each program has a different role within those schools, and that's the way it is at a lot of schools. I'm sure Colgate places a different emphasis on hockey, for example, than swimming.

[MplsBison]

Neither have most schools. Mike was inattentive in class and he'll be the first to say so, but he got married, raised a family and has been a successful businessman for many years since transferring out in 1985. I'm sure someone could pull up some GU track athlete or football player and lob the same insult, but most fans don't understand the tiering of sports at Georgetown, which the Fordham poster above obviously doesn't given his reaction to Jack DeGioia's comment, which caused absolutely no ruffling in Georgetown circles because people understand it to be this way--rather than only funding the NCAA minimum of 14 teams as many D-I schools do, a 29 sport program offers much more opportunity to students but with the understanding not all teams will be funded the same.

Sports at Georgetown are historically in three tiers, the fully funded "national" sports, the non- or low-scholarship "regional" sports, and the participation-based "local" sports. Sports like basketball, track, and more recently lacrosse have been fully funded, have some latitude on admissions, adn compete at a higher level and that's part of the fabric of the sports landscape at GU--those are the names and the teams you hear competing for NCAA honors as opposed to say, Georgetown baseball or tennis. Sports like football and crew came of age in the 1960's within a regional model, with less need for latitiude on admissions as a result. Its level of support (with scholarships or otherwise) is part of its place in the "culture" as was described. People at GU understand this.

That doesn't mean national sports are "right" and regional sports "wrong" or vice versa, it's how they grew up within a university's history. Example: Army and Navy take great care (and spend a lot) in football, but you don't hear as much about their track teams, for instance. Should the academies also spend millions on its track teams to become nationally relevant? Of course not--each program has a different role within those schools, and that's the way it is at a lot of schools. I'm sure Colgate places a different emphasis on hockey, for example, than swimming.

And so the fundamental question of college athletics arises: is it reasonable to consider football just another sport like tennis or golf or is football a completely unique institution?

Obviously you fall into the former camp while most fans and alumni from DI schools with varsity football know better.


Thing is, I will contend that, just like all the PL posters on this board, you're in the former camp only because of convenience and practicality, not because you think it's ethically, morally or intellectually superior.

If someone donated hundreds of millions of dollars to your PL program to start a real, nationally competitive football program - as much as possible while maintaining the AI - you'd switch camps in an instant. You'd drop it like the dirty, stinking underwear that it is.

[ngineer]

Wow. Saw this ol' chestnut rise from the coals.. Sorry, but some of us have more important things to take care of at the moment. (;-) Wish us well. I hope we do the PL proud.

[JoltinJoe]

Geez, guys, take it easy. Jolter, you know we're not all that sanctimonious (Hell, I have Fordham alums in my family going back a long time). You know that a lot of us want Fordham to stay in the PL very badly for football and we want scholarships, too.

DFW, Two words for you: Michael Graham. Georgetown has not always had Rhodes Scholars on its BB teams.

I was counting you or Colgate in the sanctimonious class. The fact is both Colgate and Lehigh are properly accounting for aid given to football players as athletic aid and properly supporting their Title IX athletic requirements as a result. But I tire of hearing that the PL non-scholarship model for football is "pure" from alumni of schools who aren't doing that.

And I remain angry with the league-wide AI, which was passed specifically to thwart Fordham's recruiting after Fordham, for the first time, won two PL championships within five years. All this whining about a couple of players that Fordham recruited who couldn't have been recruited by any other PL team was really ridiculous. It wasn't like we were admitting academically unqualified players, it was simply that we could admit some players that other PL schools could not because Fordham was the "least selective" of the PL football schools. Instead of being happy for our program, since we were finally achieving some success in the PL after struggling for a decade, the PL threw out the concept that football players should be representative of the student body as a whole at each particular school -- which was the sine qui non for the PL from the outset. Now players that Fordham recruited had to be representative of the PL as a whole, in order to offset our so-called "recruiting advantage."

Not only that, but I found the action of the PL presidents to be a smug rejection of Fordham's historical role as an entry point for first-generation college students. Fordham was never an idyllic elite college, sitting on a hill somewhere in the middle of some glorious countryside. It was an inner-city college intent on bringing the best education possible to the children of working class parents who mopped floors or worked double shifts, so that their children wouldn't have to. When I attended Fordham, I went to class with many students from the Bronx neighborhood who were going to Fordham because their mother had a job with Fordham's Physical Plant cleaning our dormitories. I am a far better person for getting to know these students -- students that you wouldn't find at any other PL school.

Fordham was/is staffed by a superlative roster of the best Jesuit talent in America, because the Jesuits considered Fordham, among all their colleges, to be their most significant educational mission in the United States. The list of educators that I had while attending Fordham who were internationally renowned in their fields is long and extensive.

I submit that the significance of a college isn't whether it attracts the best and brightest, it is what it does with the talent it does attract. Fordham is a rigorous and demanding college, and its impressive list of accomplished alumni speaks for itself.

I am reminded of one young kid that no other PL school would have touched, a troubled and underachieving minority student from Mount Vernon, New York who was sent to Fordham by his struggling working-class mother, after a checkered high school career. At Fordham, a noted drama professor, Robert Stone, observed his talent and encouraged him to pursue a degree in drama. Denzel Washington is now widely regarded as the most gifted actor in America today.

Or, despite being the "least selective" of the PL schools, I call your attention to the roster of Fulbright Scholars. Among the PL schools, only Georgetown tends to produce more Fulbrights than Fordham, which annually counts about 10 or more Fulbrights among its graduates. Fordham tends to produce as many Fulbrights as Duke and NYU on an annual basis.

It is true that, as an historical working-class school, Fordham lacks the endowment per student and other financial resources of the PL schools. We are not a precise fit for the PL. But instead of celebrating our difference, we get put down because of it. I thought the suggestion that we needed to be policed so as "to maintain the standards of the PL" was outright offensive and snooty. Our program has NEVER had any academic or athletic scandal, is run in conformity with the values of the school, and if we take a chance on a marginally qualified athlete, well, we also take chances on some marginally qualified students too in the hopes of having them reach their full potential.

This thread irks me because it was started by an alumnus of a Jesuit school which routinely makes exceptions to its ordinary admissions standards to accommodate its basketball program. And yet when you (GoGate) raised the name of one very marginal admission, admitted because of his basketball skill, he defends the decision by saying that the player was a hard worker who turned his opportunity at Georgetown into a life changer.

You know what? I buy that. I've seen that. I accept that. And I congratulate Georgetown for doing it and giving this young man a chance. But when Fordham does something comparable, we're scolded by him and many others here for "reaching for the bottom of the academic barrel." Yes, GoGate, I've had enough of it.

[RichH2]

Joe,

Jumping the shark a bit with dragging up this old thread. You definitely went overboard with the "sanctimonious" line. Lots of quandries for all of us about the AI but we are an academic conference first and foremost as frustrating as that is at times. What Fordham decides for itself is none of our business and as I said earlier the boy may do fine and graduate with an excellent degree from a very good school. That is not the issue however. The sole purpose of AI is not to punish Fordham but to provide an even playing field for all PL schools as to athletic recruits.

[JoltinJoe]

Joe,

Jumping the shark a bit with dragging up this old thread. You definitely went overboard with the "sanctimonious" line. Lots of quandries for all of us about the AI but we are an academic conference first and foremost as frustrating as that is at times. What Fordham decides for itself is none of our business and as I said earlier the boy may do fine and graduate with an excellent degree from a very good school. That is not the issue however. The sole purpose of AI is not to punish Fordham but to provide an even playing field for all PL schools as to athletic recruits.

Rich, I stand by "sanctimonious" because it describes schools which wax on about the purity of need-based football when in fact they are using it as a means to dodge Title IX.

And I thought the point of the AI was to ensure that the football team at each school was truly representative of the student body at the school? Wasn't that the stated mission of the PL? If that gave Fordham a somewhat wider field for recruiting, that was fine, so long as the students recruited were generally representative of the student body at Fordham. Now that we are recruiting from the same field, and we are locking on a kid that another PL is recruiting, don't think we don't hear how about our school is maligned by those coaching staffs as the "least selective" among the PL schools. Really, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

[MplsBison]

I was counting you or Colgate in the sanctimonious class. The fact is both Colgate and Lehigh are properly accounting for aid given to football players as athletic aid and properly supporting their Title IX athletic requirements as a result. But I tire of hearing that the PL non-scholarship model for football is "pure" from alumni of schools who aren't doing that.

And I remain angry with the league-wide AI, which was passed specifically to thwart Fordham's recruiting after Fordham, for the first time, won two PL championships within five years. All this whining about a couple of players that Fordham recruited who couldn't have been recruited by any other PL team was really ridiculous. It wasn't like we were admitting academically unqualified players, it was simply that we could admit some players that other PL schools could not because Fordham was the "least selective" of the PL football schools. Instead of being happy for our program, since we were finally achieving some success in the PL after struggling for a decade, the PL threw out the concept that football players should be representative of the student body as a whole at each particular school -- which was the sine qui non for the PL from the outset. Now players that Fordham recruited had to be representative of the PL as a whole, in order to offset our so-called "recruiting advantage."

Not only that, but I found the action of the PL presidents to be a smug rejection of Fordham's historical role as an entry point for first-generation college students. Fordham was never an idyllic elite college, sitting on a hill somewhere in the middle of some glorious countryside. It was an inner-city college intent on bringing the best education possible to the children of working class parents who mopped floors or worked double shifts, so that their children wouldn't have to. When I attended Fordham, I went to class with many students from the Bronx neighborhood who were going to Fordham because their mother had a job with Fordham's Physical Plant cleaning our dormitories. I am a far better person for getting to know these students -- students that you wouldn't find at any other PL school.

Fordham was/is staffed by a superlative roster of the best Jesuit talent in America, because the Jesuits considered Fordham, among all their colleges, to be their most significant educational mission in the United States. The list of educators that I had while attending Fordham who were internationally renowned in their fields is long and extensive.

I submit that the significance of a college isn't whether it attracts the best and brightest, it is what it does with the talent it does attract. Fordham is a rigorous and demanding college, and its impressive list of accomplished alumni speaks for itself.

I am reminded of one young kid that no other PL school would have touched, a troubled and underachieving minority student from Mount Vernon, New York who was sent to Fordham by his struggling working-class mother, after a checkered high school career. At Fordham, a noted drama professor, Robert Stone, observed his talent and encouraged him to pursue a degree in drama. Denzel Washington is now widely regarded as the most gifted actor in America today.

Or, despite being the "least selective" of the PL schools, I call your attention to the roster of Fulbright Scholars. Among the PL schools, only Georgetown tends to produce more Fulbrights than Fordham, which annually counts about 10 or more Fulbrights among its graduates. Fordham tends to produce as many Fulbrights as Duke and NYU on an annual basis.

It is true that, as an historical working-class school, Fordham lacks the endowment per student and other financial resources of the PL schools. We are not a precise fit for the PL. But instead of celebrating our difference, we get put down because of it. I thought the suggestion that we needed to be policed so as "to maintain the standards of the PL" was outright offensive and snooty. Our program has NEVER had any academic or athletic scandal, is run in conformity with the values of the school, and if we take a chance on a marginally qualified athlete, well, we also take chances on some marginally qualified students too in the hopes of having them reach their full potential.

This thread irks me because it was started by an alumnus of a Jesuit school which routinely makes exceptions to its ordinary admissions standards to accommodate its basketball program. And yet when you (GoGate) raised the name of one very marginal admission, admitted because of his basketball skill, he defends the decision by saying that the player was a hard worker who turned his opportunity at Georgetown into a life changer.

You know what? I buy that. I've seen that. I accept that. And I congratulate Georgetown for doing it and giving this young man a chance. But when Fordham does something comparable, we're scolded by him and many others here for "reaching for the bottom of the academic barrel." Yes, GoGate, I've had enough of it.

So you're saying that the Patriot League AI was not implemented on a purely ideological basis?? How dare you, sir!

Seriously, thank you for sharing this back story. Well written.


I am now fully behind and in fact rooting for Forham football to leave the PL. How could any football program live with itself by staying with a conference whose first instinct is to be suspicious of its success!?! That's despicable.

It will be no different than when a woman leaves an abusive boyfriend.



May you find better competition and comradery in another conference or perhaps a new conference.


Ideally Lehigh and Colgate would go with you, but the burden of tradition I fear is too great for them to overcome.

[Go...gate]

Wow. Saw this ol' chestnut rise from the coals.. Sorry, but some of us have more important things to take care of at the moment. (;-) Wish us well. I hope we do the PL proud.

You surely did the PL proud. Well done.

[Go...gate]

I was counting you or Colgate in the sanctimonious class. The fact is both Colgate and Lehigh are properly accounting for aid given to football players as athletic aid and properly supporting their Title IX athletic requirements as a result. But I tire of hearing that the PL non-scholarship model for football is "pure" from alumni of schools who aren't doing that.

And I remain angry with the league-wide AI, which was passed specifically to thwart Fordham's recruiting after Fordham, for the first time, won two PL championships within five years. All this whining about a couple of players that Fordham recruited who couldn't have been recruited by any other PL team was really ridiculous. It wasn't like we were admitting academically unqualified players, it was simply that we could admit some players that other PL schools could not because Fordham was the "least selective" of the PL football schools. Instead of being happy for our program, since we were finally achieving some success in the PL after struggling for a decade, the PL threw out the concept that football players should be representative of the student body as a whole at each particular school -- which was the sine qui non for the PL from the outset. Now players that Fordham recruited had to be representative of the PL as a whole, in order to offset our so-called "recruiting advantage."

Not only that, but I found the action of the PL presidents to be a smug rejection of Fordham's historical role as an entry point for first-generation college students. Fordham was never an idyllic elite college, sitting on a hill somewhere in the middle of some glorious countryside. It was an inner-city college intent on bringing the best education possible to the children of working class parents who mopped floors or worked double shifts, so that their children wouldn't have to. When I attended Fordham, I went to class with many students from the Bronx neighborhood who were going to Fordham because their mother had a job with Fordham's Physical Plant cleaning our dormitories. I am a far better person for getting to know these students -- students that you wouldn't find at any other PL school.

Fordham was/is staffed by a superlative roster of the best Jesuit talent in America, because the Jesuits considered Fordham, among all their colleges, to be their most significant educational mission in the United States. The list of educators that I had while attending Fordham who were internationally renowned in their fields is long and extensive.

I submit that the significance of a college isn't whether it attracts the best and brightest, it is what it does with the talent it does attract. Fordham is a rigorous and demanding college, and its impressive list of accomplished alumni speaks for itself.

I am reminded of one young kid that no other PL school would have touched, a troubled and underachieving minority student from Mount Vernon, New York who was sent to Fordham by his struggling working-class mother, after a checkered high school career. At Fordham, a noted drama professor, Robert Stone, observed his talent and encouraged him to pursue a degree in drama. Denzel Washington is now widely regarded as the most gifted actor in America today.

Or, despite being the "least selective" of the PL schools, I call your attention to the roster of Fulbright Scholars. Among the PL schools, only Georgetown tends to produce more Fulbrights than Fordham, which annually counts about 10 or more Fulbrights among its graduates. Fordham tends to produce as many Fulbrights as Duke and NYU on an annual basis.

It is true that, as an historical working-class school, Fordham lacks the endowment per student and other financial resources of the PL schools. We are not a precise fit for the PL. But instead of celebrating our difference, we get put down because of it. I thought the suggestion that we needed to be policed so as "to maintain the standards of the PL" was outright offensive and snooty. Our program has NEVER had any academic or athletic scandal, is run in conformity with the values of the school, and if we take a chance on a marginally qualified athlete, well, we also take chances on some marginally qualified students too in the hopes of having them reach their full potential.

This thread irks me because it was started by an alumnus of a Jesuit school which routinely makes exceptions to its ordinary admissions standards to accommodate its basketball program. And yet when you (GoGate) raised the name of one very marginal admission, admitted because of his basketball skill, he defends the decision by saying that the player was a hard worker who turned his opportunity at Georgetown into a life changer.

You know what? I buy that. I've seen that. I accept that. And I congratulate Georgetown for doing it and giving this young man a chance. But when Fordham does something comparable, we're scolded by him and many others here for "reaching for the bottom of the academic barrel." Yes, GoGate, I've had enough of it.

Ouch. Very sorry that it has come to this.

[MplsBison]

Pretty sure he meant "wasn't" on the first sentence.