More on the Ivies - The Fight for the Playoffs

[TexasTerror]

Quotes from the Princeton President and even the junior QB who stated, "Our non-conference games are mostly against playoff teams, and we went 2-1 against them last year," Terrell said. "For the amount of work we put in as a team, it's ridiculous that we don't have the opportunity to extend our season into the playoffs."

How about that? Hopefully we're getting closer and closer to PLAYOFF time in the Ivies!

----------
Playoffs for Football?
USG calls for end to playoff ban for Ivy League football teams

By Michael Gallo and Karl Micka-Foos
Princetonian Senior Writers

The USG followed the Ivy Council and passed a resolution at its weekly meeting Sunday calling for the removal of the ban on postseason play for Ivy League football teams.

"What a resolution like this does is basically say that this is something that students support, this is something that the student government thinks is important," USG president Alex Lenahan '07 said. "It raises the profile of the issue and hopefully gets a conversation going."

Since 1951, the Ivy League has banned its football teams from participating in the postseason. The Division I-AA postseason, for which Princeton would be eligible without the ban, is a 16-team, single elimination tournament. Teams will play a maximum of four games.

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/03/15/sports/14877.shtml

[Hansel]

Wasn't Princeton (along with Yale-Harvard) one of the schools rumored to be adamantly against the playoffs?

[carney2]

I realize that finally someone in the Ivy community has broached this subject and made it an issue. To-date it appears to be some students, coaches and former players. My question is: Is there any indication that the people who actually make the decisions are listening and will give this a hearing?

[GaSouthern]

I really would love the chance to play vs. the ivy teams!!!! post or regular season, now that I think about it :)

[blukeys]

Maybe we all need to email these guys wanting to make a change and encourage them to keep it up.

The students and athletes want to make a change. The Admiminstration is stuck in the 1950's. The key is the alumni. Those making donations are the ones who will make a difference. The administration has been feeding the alumni a pile of *SH**.

More publicity on the student end might help.

[blukeys]

I took my own advice and emailed the Daily Princetonian. I have no idea if my views will have any effect on the Ivies but here is the body of my email.

What is the problem with the Ivy League Administration???

Why do they deny their own Student Athletes the opportunity to compete for a National Championship in Football while they encourage the same opportunity in all other sports?

Did Princeton keep Pete Carril's Basketball teams out of March Madness due to "academic" concerns (I apologize if I have misspelled the surname of the great and legendary former Princeton BBall coach).

Will Princeton's nationally ranked Lacrosse team have to miss final exams due to the NCAA tournament? Or will they forego the NCAA Lacrosse championship to make sure they take their finals.

What gives? Are Princeton and Ivy League administrators afraid that their Football teams are not good enough to compete with the best of I-AA?

If so then just say so and end the hypocrisy.

Just Say that we aren't that good but we can still put people in the seats for Big Ivy league games and that is all we care about.

To the rest of the I-AA community you look like hypocrites. Many of your alums won't even notice for 20 years. If that is your objective go for it.

[GaSouthern]

mind posting the e-mail address, i'd like to tell them I support their move!

[blukeys]

mind posting the e-mail address, i'd like to tell them I support their move!


I used the link that Texas Terror had in his post. Then I replied. They ask if you want to send a letter to the editor. Since this is a student newspaper I really think they do not get that many replies. An email is very little effort. Penn is considering scheduling UD in the 2010-2011. I'm not really that big on the IVY League but it would help all of I-AA

[colgate13]

I thought it was funny to see some of the shifty movement going on now as the 'exam excuse' is being made out to be a sham (and I'm sure Colgate's 2003 run helped). Now the excuse is 'keeping the Ivy tradition'. This a new one to me! Like for some reason the I-AA playoffs will make the Ivy games less meaningful! :rolleyes: Heck, now some formerly meaningless game at the end of the year might actually have some meaning because of the playoffs. Here is the quote that bites my ass:


"The logic was not completely dependent on the exams schedule, but rather on the very special rivalry that has been our tradition of Ivy football," she said.

Jones goes on to point out in his resolution that the Patriot League, an athletic conference made up of northeast school with similar academic standards, lifted a nearly identical ban in 1997. "[The league] has since seen no adverse effects on academic standards," the resolution states.

But Tilghman pointed out that the ban is not in place solely for academic purposes.

"If the focus of competition became post season play, we would inevitably lose some of that great tradition," she said, adding that keeping competition within the Ivy League maintains the integrity of Ivy League football and helps prevent the "escalation in intensity (and player size) that has swept the rest of the country."

[JaxSinfonian]

Seems to me like that tradition involves inventing the game and then showing everyone else how it was played for a couple of decades. They could really add to that tradition by competing for some national titles in the NCAA's D-I championship tournament.

But hey, if you're scared, say you're scared.

[Pard4Life]

Their sacred tradition will still be sacred. Every one of the games counts and not every team gets to go to the postseason. Colgate and Lehigh are no less important to me because of the playoffs (which are no garuntee).

Plus we should all vie for the Ivies in the playoffs because it would definetely expose I-AA. Maybe if you have a 'Harvard' or 'Penn' running to the title you might get national exposure and an ESPN slot. Everyone knows those names.

[*****]

Penn? Maybe Yale or Princeton... :)

[Kill'em]

We ought to send the Ivy presidents "I'm Scared" T-shirts.

[R.A.]

-Hearing something on this playoff issue from Brown's former Running Back Nick Hartigan, might catch a few more ears. After all, now he's an Ivy league Football legend, a legit NFL prospect, and a Rhodes Scholar finalist.

[colgate13]

-Hearing something on this playoff issue from Brown's former Running Back Nick Hartigan, might catch a few more ears. After all, now he's an Ivy league Football legend, a legit NFL prospect, and a Rhodes Scholar finalist.

He, along with a lot of Brown players, expressed their disappointment about no playoffs last season.

[youwouldno]

The idea that postseason hurts conference rivalries is not a serious one. It's just an excuse.

For an example of how it works in reality, look no further than the SoCon, where the postseason has given rise to some great rivalries... the games mean more during the year, and if teams meet in the playoffs the rivalry only becomes that much more intense.

[bison95]

My question is why are they ok with Basketball playoffs and not football? hypocrites:confused:

[Mr. C]

-Hearing something on this playoff issue from Brown's former Running Back Nick Hartigan, might catch a few more ears. After all, now he's an Ivy league Football legend, a legit NFL prospect, and a Rhodes Scholar finalist.
At the Payton Awards banquet, Nick Hartigan (who is a super nice guy, by the way) told me he was so upset with the ban that he and his Brown teammates couldn't bear to watch the I-AA playoffs on TV that first weekend. You could tell he wanted to play in the postseason very badly.

Charleston Southern head coach Jay Mills told me that Harvard, where he used to be Tim Murphy's offensive coordinator, had 40 something sports and all of them compete in the postseason, but football. What a sham. Mills says that the Ivies will eventually vote in the playoffs when some of these old geezers running things (my words, not Jay's) kick off.

[Pard4Life]

At the Payton Awards banquet, Nick Hartigan (who is a super nice guy, by the way) told me he was so upset with the ban that he and his Brown teammates couldn't bear to watch the I-AA playoffs on TV that first weekend. You could tell he wanted to play in the postseason very badly.

Charleston Southern head coach Jay Mills told me that Harvard, where he used to be Tim Murphy's offensive coordinator, had 40 something sports and all of them compete in the postseason, but football. What a sham. Mills says that the Ivies will eventually vote in the playoffs when some of these old geezers running things (my words, not Jay's) kick off.

I wonder how Harvard felt in 2004 after going 10-0 with an NFL QB and possible NFL RB. Playoffs and risk the undefeated record? Or status quo, sit pretty, get nice rings, and get some sympathy #1 votes?

As competitors, probably the former.

[AmsterBison]

It sounds to me like Princeton's president said that the Ivy League needs the football playoff ban to shield their members' children from the big and mean kids who exist solely because of football's postseason.

Odd. Better extend the ban to protect Ivy League presidents from debating this matter with a North Dakota JV high school debate team - because they'd get chewed up and spit out.

[R.A.]

The Ivies need to make the playoffs a reality for them. I'd love to see my Bison play in one of those ancient stadiums.

[carney2]

There is some real nonsense abroad in the land - much of the worst of it encoded in "unwritten rules." For instance, there used to be an unwritten construction rule in Philadelphia that no building shall ever be taller than William Penn's hat on the top of City Hall. The city got over it, but it took a long time. As for the case in point, it is my understanding that the ancients of the Ivy League have an unwritten rule that no football game involving an Ivy team shall be played after the Harvard - Yale game. I believe that this even includes games that need to be rescheduled due to weather or whatever. They would rather cancel.

Does anyone have any information on this or are we talking about another urban legend here?

[LBPop]

As I have written before on these pages, this nonsense from the Ivy League about playoffs is pure snobbery. By staying out of the playoffs and crowning their own champion, they preserve their perceived "mystique" and avoid diminishing the cache' of the title Ivy League Champion.

In the league's eyes, Brown was able to hold themselves out as "Champions of the league of which everyone else wishes they were a Member." They believe that this unofficial and unstated title is far more desirable than I-AA National Champion. :bang:

[Go...gate]

History says you are absolutely correct. The only saving grace is that the generation of Ivy leadership which embraced that attitude is dying off.

[Pard4Life]

History says you are absolutely correct. The only saving grace is that the generation of Ivy leadership which embraced that attitude is dying off.

I assume that the status quo is being upheld by the pre-women and pre-minority admission era in the Ivies. If it's the post-1960s generation upholding the status quo than I'd be less optimisitc about playoff inclusion.

And in regards to that Philadelphia example, the Ivies are missing an opportunity of prosperity, economic and publicity, by ingnoring the playoffs, just like how Philadelphia woud have suffered without skyscrappers.

[blukeys]

As much as I would like to see the Ivies in the I-AA fold for admittedly selfish reasons. (They would raise the level of attention for the I-AA playoffs and raise the level for all of I-AA.)

My main concern is for the IVY players themselves. Yes they are very bright guys who made a decision to compete only for the Ivy League Championship (or so the Ivy League Administrators would say) But as athletes they want to compete against the best and we all know that means playoffs. There is much speculation about how the Ivie's would do. In all fairness this can only be answered when the games are actually played.

The Ivy players deserve a shot. In this instance it is the hide bound, blinder mentality, Ivy League admoinistrators who have decided to penalize their own athletes. They don't forbid the participation of Ivy League students in any of the 20+ sports that the Ivies sponsor they forbid participation in JUST FOOTBALL

There is no rational reason for this. If amateurism is the goal then the Ivies need to drop their teams from the Basketball and Lacrosse championships. Both require a huge commitment from Student Athletes and both have "players" who do not quite meet the standard student profile.

Why are the Ivies singling out football and not other sports for the proctology treatement? Abuse exists in all sports. Yet the Ivies suggest that only football players are too dumb to study for exams!!!!

[Harvard Worship]

It is my understanding that the ancients of the Ivy League have an unwritten rule that no football game involving an Ivy team shall be played after the Harvard - Yale game. I believe that this even includes games that need to be rescheduled due to weather or whatever. They would rather cancel.
Does anyone have any information on this or are we talking about another urban legend here?

Harvard cancelled a football game in 2001--the one scheduled for the weekend of Sept. 11th. It was not rescheduled. I'm not sure how many other teams nationwide rescheduled their week-of-9/11 games. If a bunch did then maybe the H-Y game urban legend is true?

[TexasTerror]

From today's Harvard Crimson newspaper...

UC Pushes Football Playoffs

Published On Monday, March 20, 2006 2:22 AM
By BRITTNEY L. MORASKI
Crimson Staff Writer
The Undergraduate Council (UC) last night called upon University President Lawrence H. Summers to press the Council of Ivy Group Presidents, the governing body of the Ivy League athletic conference, to end a rule that prevents Harvard’s football squad from playing in the postseason.

This change would allow Crimson football to compete in the 16-team NCAA Division I-AA playoffs, which would extend the season past the Ivies’ limited 10-game regular season, if Harvard qualified.

“If we could very seriously challenge this ban, we could very seriously change the face of athletics at Harvard and across the Ivy League,” said Matthew R. Greenfield ’08, the sponsor of the bill.

“We can never truly know how good we are because we can never play outside of the regular season,” he said.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=512244

[colgate13]

Way to go Harvard. Looks like this is a grassroots effort. Let's hope they have some follow through, because this could be a long battle.

[Go...gate]

If Harvard shows some leadership, eventually it will get done. Princeton has now inclination to lead on the issue.

[Spider1976]

I've never understood why the schools that enroll the students who supposedy are the smartest in the country would worry that they would miss a day or two of class. If they're so smart, certainly this shouldn't hinder them. :read:

I'm also surprised, given the great number of lawyers from Ivy League schools, that someone hasn't filed a lawsuit here. It's clearly discriminatory to let athletes from every sport except football to participate in NCAA post-season competition. xidiotx

[Kill'em]

They would miss more class time in postseason basketball and baseball tournaments.

[GannonFan]

I always assumed that this post-season exclusion for football and football only was really just a remnant from the 30's and 40's when the Ivy's felt that football was becoming way too influential on the university and that they were going to de-emphasize football so that it wouldn't be the primary goal of the schools - now it remains as more of a habit as opposed to anything else. I would think with enough grassroots support, and the passing away of the older, crusty generation of Ivy League leaders, that this will happen sometime in the near future.

[LBPop]

I've never understood why the schools that enroll the students who supposedy are the smartest in the country would worry that they would miss a day or two of class. If they're so smart, certainly this shouldn't hinder them.

The irony here (or should I say hypocrisy) is that the Ivys freely admit that the vast majority of football players whom they admit would have had no chance of being accepted as normal applicants. The estimate which I have posted before was provided by a Yale coach who said candidly that in their previous recruiting class no more than two of their recruits "would have had any chance of being accepted under normal guidelines".

So, they are happy to make make the academic exceptions to win the Ivy League Championship, but not to compete for the I-AA Championship. xidiotx

[GannonFan]

The irony here (or should I say hypocrisy) is that the Ivys freely admit that the vast majority of football players whom they admit would have had no chance of being accepted as normal applicants. The estimate which I have posted before was provided by a Yale coach who said candidly that in their previous recruiting class no more than two of their recruits "would have had any chance of being accepted under normal guidelines".

So, they are happy to make make the academic exceptions to win the Ivy League Championship, but not to compete for the I-AA Championship. xidiotx

They do that in all sports, not just football. Penn's been bringing in ringers for years in both basketball and football - Princeton has too - any wonder that in the past 38 years there have only been 2 years where Penn or Princeton didn't win the b-ball title? Penn's got 6 Ivy League football titles since 1993, the next closest in that time is Harvard with 3.

[foghorn]

I 've always had the impression that the Ivys would rather be athletically self-governed and entirely separated from the rest of the world (NCAA).
I disagree entirely that they would add anything to the status of the I-AA playoffs if they decided to participate. They reached their peak, in terms of football notoriety, many, many, years ago, in the '40's. Hell, Fordham, during their halcyon days of relatively the same period, had just as much , if not more, football recognition. I don't think the Ivys today would draw any more interest than the Rams. Those who remember the Ivys as football powers are DEAD!
I do, however, think that they should participate in the playoffs, just as the SWAC should, if they want to maintain their Div. I -AA status. The rest of the division can retaliate by NOT scheduling them during the 'regular' season; then they can rest their laurels safely within the confines of their 'Ivory Tower'. :p

[colgate13]

I disagree entirely that they would add anything to the status of the I-AA playoffs if they decided to participate. They reached their peak, in terms of football notoriety, many, many, years ago, in the '40's.

I don't think so. Harvard/Yale still gets on national TV even when both teams stink and it means nothing to I-AA.

These 8 schools are arguably the best known in the world. If they are doing something, there is probably a way to market it and there is a better chance of the idle fan stopping to watch them over (insert school name here).

They have serious name brand name cache.

[foghorn]

I don't think so. Harvard/Yale still gets on national TV even when both teams stink and it means nothing to I-AA.

These 8 schools are arguably the best known in the world. If they are doing something, there is probably a way to market it and there is a better chance of the idle fan stopping to watch them over (insert school name here).

They have serious name brand name cache.

Man if that's the case, some network must be taking a ratings beating. Now, I know 'THE GAME' is played very late in November, with most conference titles decided, but no network in its right mind is going to pre-empt a nationally known game, if it were played, to broadcast Harvard-Yale.
I'll go a step further and say that most 'current' Div. I-AA powerhouses, would do the Ivys a favor by upgrading their competition, and long-forgotten lofty image. Now, if your talkin' polo teams, boo-ya!:nod:

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm going to tackle this one in a blog posting, but obviously I think the Ivies should participate in the D-I playoffs, and that they should be welcomed with open arms.

Basically, the thought that the postseason ban makes Ivy football better is an utterly misguided concept.

[Fordham]

I don't think so. Harvard/Yale still gets on national TV even when both teams stink and it means nothing to I-AA.

These 8 schools are arguably the best known in the world. If they are doing something, there is probably a way to market it and there is a better chance of the idle fan stopping to watch them over (insert school name here).

They have serious name brand name cache.

I agree with this completely. And as much as I appreciate the Fordham reference in foghorn's post insinuating that our past success puts us on par with them from a national interest standpoint (or, more accurately, that since no one other than a Fordham grad cares much about the Blocks of Granite days, no one also cares about the Ivies when it comes to f-ball), it's not even close to being the case in my opinion.

They have that unbelievable branding that can do nothing but help marketing I-AA football overall, imo, if they were to join the playoff hunt.

[LBPop]

I agree with this completely. And as much as I appreciate the Fordham reference in foghorn's post insinuating that our past success puts us on par with them from a national interest standpoint (or, more accurately, that since no one other than a Fordham grad cares much about the Blocks of Granite days, no one also cares about the Ivies when it comes to f-ball), it's not even close to being the case in my opinion.

They have that unbelievable branding that can do nothing but help marketing I-AA football overall, imo, if they were to join the playoff hunt.

Could not agree more. Case in point occurred in 2003 when Georgetown defeated Cornell up in Ithaca. Cornell did not win a game that season, but that victory was celebrated by the alumni even more than the Hoyas' first PL win which also occurred that same season. The reason was obvious...Cornell is an Ivy League school. Sure the Ivys hold themselves above the rest, but many of the rest buy into it.

[foghorn]

LB Pop, a question. Whom would you rather beat, Cornell or JMU?

[blukeys]

I agree with this completely. And as much as I appreciate the Fordham reference in foghorn's post insinuating that our past success puts us on par with them from a national interest standpoint (or, more accurately, that since no one other than a Fordham grad cares much about the Blocks of Granite days, no one also cares about the Ivies when it comes to f-ball), it's not even close to being the case in my opinion.

They have that unbelievable branding that can do nothing but help marketing I-AA football overall, imo, if they were to join the playoff hunt.


I agree with your sentiments. Just out of curiosity, If an Ivy got blown out by GSU or Montana, How long do you think it would take for the "Our football team is too smart excuse?

:eyebrow: :eyebrow:

[Tod]

I agree with your sentiments. Just out of curiosity, If an Ivy got blown out by GSU or Montana, How long do you think it would take for the "Our football team is too smart excuse?

:eyebrow: :eyebrow:

This is exactly what they're trying to avoid by not getting involved in the playoffs in the first place. I think if the Ivies thought they could win an NC every three or four years, they'd be all for it.

[colgate13]

I think if the Ivies thought they could win an NC every three or four years, they'd be all for it.

I think that's about 25%-50% of the equation. I think it goes further than that though. Forget winning; they don't even want to be on the same sports ticker as most I-AA schools. They view themselves at the top of Division I (which they are in most sports). If it's not Harvard/Notre Dame or Yale/Michigan - it's not worth doing.

There are also just some dumb people in charge that view football as a big evil.

[Tod]

I think that's about 25%-50% of the equation. I think it goes further than that though. Forget winning; they don't even want to be on the same sports ticker as most I-AA schools. They view themselves at the top of Division I (which they are in most sports). If it's not Harvard/Notre Dame or Yale/Michigan - it's not worth doing.

There are also just some dumb people in charge that view football as a big evil.

Very good point.

[blukeys]

I think that's about 25%-50% of the equation. I think it goes further than that though. Forget winning; they don't even want to be on the same sports ticker as most I-AA schools. They view themselves at the top of Division I (which they are in most sports). If it's not Harvard/Notre Dame or Yale/Michigan - it's not worth doing.



So will it take another 20 years for the old alums who remember the glory days of Ivy football to die off or will they pass on their biases so that there will be no Ivy participation in the playoffs? Personally, I think that when this generation of Ivy students graduate and are asked for alum contributions then we might see a change. The Penn students have Nova, UD, LU, and LC too close to not be aware that there is a playoff world out there. These kids were born 30 years after any Ivy team made any impression. They want the same football experiece and fun everyone else has. Their $'s will mean more to the presidents then the current views of players and coaches.

[colgate13]

Personally, I think that when this generation of Ivy students graduate and are asked for alum contributions then we might see a change.

You'd like to think so, but old habits die hard. Elitism is a big thing in american society, so I'm sure there are plenty of those willing and wanting to carry on the torch of some of this Ivy viewpoint.

The donation thing though is something I think is actually pretty meaningless. H-Y-P, and to an extent the rest of the league too, are about as financially healthy as can be. They don't need donations in general, and yet a place like Columbia just lands $200 million to build a brain research center.

Alums at these places are for the most part not lining up to fill the coffers of the athletic department, and renovation/upkeep of stadiums and such are held out until the very last minute (Yale, Princeton). There are no scholarships to pay for as well.

Every alum that played sports could withhold their donations for 100 years, and every Ivy school would still sport multi-billion dollar endowments that could sink most nations.

[LBPop]

LB Pop, a question. Whom would you rather beat, Cornell or JMU?

Of course beating JMU would be a much bigger accomplishment given the relative current quality of the teams. However, Georgetown doesn't schedule A-10 schools yet (rumors of Richmond in the future are circulating) and the comparison is, at the moment, too hypothetical to consider. My point is that given the current schedule at Georgetown and given their current level of play, a victory over an Ivy League team probably means more to most Hoya fans than one over a Patriot League team. Once Georgetown becomes a real contender for the PL title and a spot in the playoffs, that will likely change. And, the only reason for this attitude is the status (perceived or real) of the Ivy League.

[foghorn]

LB Pop, a few years of 'scholly' football and you'll be right up (down?)
there with the Ivy League. Won't take much. Putting the Ivy League in the 'upper crust' of D-IAA is strictly delusional, a perception held only by the octogenarians associated with the 'halls of ivy'. Harvard, is an exception, however, as they are well respected today in the D-IAA football community.
In the early to mid '80's, UD scheduled both Penn and Princeton. At the time, Penn was riding the crest of several 'Ivy' championships. Although the Penn game drew some interest, attendance at UD was only 17k for that (small for UD standards) game and only 10k the next year at Franklin Field. A similar number of fans were attracted to the Princeton game. Needless to say, UD rolled in all 3 games, and the 'Ivy' tag lost even more credibility of being football -competitive, in its respective division.
Most football fans in the UD area are aware of the current capabilities of the Ivy League and do not consider them the equal of the A-10, So. Conf. or Patriot, for instance. Hard as the ' powers to be' might try to hang on to their storied football past, the knowledgeable fans of today don't buy it.
So Ivys, quit avoiding the playoffs and face reality, instead of living in the past with those stalwarts donned with helmets of leather. Come on, I dare you.xlolx

[colgate13]

Putting the Ivy League in the 'upper crust' of D-IAA is strictly delusional, a perception held only by the octogenarians associated with the 'halls of ivy'.

Or by Joe Average that does not live and breathe college football, much less I-AA football.

[LBPop]

Or by Joe Average that does not live and breathe college football, much less I-AA football.

Thanks for that, 13. Nobody is saying that the Ivys are superior in football. And this delusional parent had the experience of spending several weekends with other delusional parents during the recruiting process a couple of years ago. Those parents had deluded themselves into believing that their son would benefit greatly by attending and graduating from an Ivy League school. Few, if any, really cared about the quality of football--they just cared that football might help get their son into one of the most respected schools in the country.

Reality here is irrelevant. Perceptions are what we are discussing. It is these perceptions that make defeating an Ivy League school in anything a big deal. These perceptions are out there (and I still suffer from it) and I'm not 80 years old...yet. My son is at Georgetown and he is proud as hell (so are LBMom and I), but his first choice was an Ivy League school who did not "offer" him. Some other Ivys did, but he preferred Georgetown. He is thrilled with how things worked out, but he originally wanted a school in a lousy town, with an OK football team, but with a huge name. If you ask him, he wants two things--to win the PL and to beat the Ivys...even Columbia. Yes, I guess he is deluded too...and I don't think he's 80 years old either.

[foghorn]

LB Pop, you seem to be adding 'academics' into your respect for 'Ivy' football.:read: That's not what I'm talking about: football, simply football. If I were including academics into the equation, and comparing the Ivys with their inter-league peers (cautious here), the Patriot League, then I could see your point, but we're talking football only.
I contend that anyone (+/- 80 yrs. old) who puts the Ivys in the upper crust of Div. I-AA football, is delusional. Only one way to prove it, become playoff eligible and prove your worth on the field! :bang:

[LBPop]

LB Pop, you seem to be adding 'academics' into your respect for 'Ivy' football.:read: That's not what I'm talking about: football, simply football.

Yes, I understand that you (and I) can make that distinction, but not everyone does. A little anecdote to illustrate: Last season I went up to Long Island to see the Hoyas play Stony Brook. In some circles, the name Georgetown generates some real respect and when I met some local fans I discovered it first hand. I can tell you that these people were actually proud to have Georgetown on their schedule. When I explained that the Hoyas had finished last in the PL in 2004 and had just gotten crushed by Holy Cross and Brown, it didn't seem to matter. They were thrilled to play Georgetown and would have felt some level of validation had they won that game. From a pure football point of view, it makes no sense...but I understood. They did not (or could not) separate the overall reputation of the institution from the football team.

But back to the original premise, it's indefensible that the Ivys don't participate in the I-AA playoffs and I include my name among those who would love to see them make the right decision and join in the fun. I know that you agree. :nod:

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LB Pop, you seem to be adding 'academics' into your respect for 'Ivy' football.:read: That's not what I'm talking about: football, simply football. If I were including academics into the equation, and comparing the Ivys with their inter-league peers (cautious here), the Patriot League, then I could see your point, but we're talking football only.
I contend that anyone (+/- 80 yrs. old) who puts the Ivys in the upper crust of Div. I-AA football, is delusional. Only one way to prove it, become playoff eligible and prove your worth on the field! :bang:

I understand your point is to say that we will never know if the Ivy League could compete with the Appalachian State's and Northern Iowa's since they won't schedule them and won't go to the I-AA playoffs. This is a valid point. But saying that they don't belong in the upper crust of I-AA football is not fair either.

Brown in 2005 (Rhode Island) and Harvard (Northeastern) in 2004 scheduled full scholarship A-10 teams and didn't just beat them, they destroyed them. Harvard also beat the Patriot co-champ in Lafayette, as well as crushing Yale and Penn, two very good teams -- Penn spent some time in the national rankings.

I have many quarrels with the Ivies, but putting out quality football teams is not one of them. Paradoxically, by saying that the Ivies "are not in the upper crust" is part of the circular logic that keeps them out of the playoffs. If indeed they are "not in the upper crust", then why should they go to the playoffs?

The fact is that their best teams, at the very worst, are the equivalent of the best Patriot League team, and at best could be competing for national championships. Harvard in 2004 was probably one of the most intriguing teams in that regard - they could have gone deep with an NFL QB and a soon-to-be-NFL RB. It is a crying shame that they didn't get the opportunity to play for that championship. That's what we should be emphasizing.

[OL FU]

I hope the Ivies one day join the party, but I can't think of many quality I-AA football programs, down heah or down her (depending on whether your locale is low or up country), that would not expect to beat them (soundly:rolleyes: )

[foghorn]

Lehigh FN, I hope you didn't construe my post to insinuate any disrespect for Lehigh and your fellow league members. I have the utmost respect for Lehigh, Colgate, Lafayette, HC, etc. Lehigh has, past and present, been a tremendous opponent and I'd love to continue the series. The only team that's beaten us more consistently than Lehigh in the last 30 years or so, has been Div. I-A Temple, and we haven't played them in a long time.
Sure, the Ivys currently have a great program in Harvard, but as a whole, the league is just not as strong across the board as the Patriot IMO. Got an open date in '08? :)

[colgate13]

he originally wanted a school in a lousy town, with an OK football team, but with a huge name.

Hmmmm..... I think that spells, Y-A-L-E?

[colgate13]

I contend that anyone (+/- 80 yrs. old) who puts the Ivys in the upper crust of Div. I-AA football, is delusional.
My main point is that we in the I-AA 'inner circle' know our stuff (or think we do ;) )

But there are PLENTY of everyday americans/casual sports fans who hear Ivy and think 'good'. What do you think that same brain process comes up with when it hears: App. State? JMU? Western Kentucky? Georgia Southern?

I would venture a bet that if you took the casual sports fan off the street who claimed to know something about I-AA and asked them to name 20 I-AA teams - the Ivy League would be named at least 5 times.

[carney2]

Sure, the Ivys currently have a great program in Harvard, but as a whole, the league is just not as strong across the board as the Patriot IMO. Got an open date in '08? :)


I have made the point at this site before that, in my opinion, the top 2 or 3 teams in the Ivy League can play with anyone in I-AA. Unfortunately, they're not playing many of the more competitive teams in I-AA. Still, you might want to pencil the following games onto your 2006 calendar for a look-see:

9/16 Penn @ Lafayette
9/23 Penn @ Villanova
9/30 Harvard @ Lehigh
9/30 Yale @ Lafayette
10/14 Colgate @ Cornell
10/14 Lehigh @ Yale
10/14 Lafayette @ Harvard

My guess is that these are the 4 Ivy teams "in the hunt" this year and these games represent their non-conference "tests."

[OL FU]

My main point is that we in the I-AA 'inner circle' know our stuff (or think we do ;) )

But there are PLENTY of everyday americans/casual sports fans who hear Ivy and think 'good'. What do you think that same brain process comes up with when it hears: App. State? JMU? Western Kentucky? Georgia Southern?

I would venture a bet that if you took the casual sports fan off the street who claimed to know something about I-AA and asked them to name 20 I-AA teams - the Ivy League would be named at least 5 times.

I am not sure that is correct. This may be regional bias or ignorance, but if you ask fans in the south to name the best academic schools, the Ivies would get the nod, no competition. If you ask them to describe Ivy football the answer would be " They are horrible". I am speaking here mostly of traditional I-A football fans, but from conversations I have had with these supposedly knowledgable football fans, most think the Ivies are, at worse, way below the SoCon and, at best, they don't have an opinion because they don't know. This may be simply because the Ivies generally don't leave the northeast, but whatever the reason, I don't think the Ivies participation adds anything to the typical fans appreciation of the playoffs. On the other hand, as much as we would like everyone to be interested, we understand that the playoffs are for us, and us would like the Ivies to compete and understand that they could.

[foghorn]

I am not sure that is correct. This may be regional bias or ignorance, but if you ask fans in the south to name the best academic schools, the Ivies would get the nod, no competition. If you ask them to describe Ivy football the answer would be " They are horrible". I am speaking here mostly of traditional I-A football fans, but from conversations I have had with these supposedly knowledgable football fans, most think the Ivies are, at worse, way below the SoCon and, at best, they don't have an opinion because they don't know. This may be simply because the Ivies generally don't leave the northeast, but whatever the reason, I don't think the Ivies participation adds anything to the typical fans appreciation of the playoffs. On the other hand, as much as we would like everyone to be interested, we understand that the playoffs are for us, and us would like the Ivies to compete and understand that they could.

FU, I agree with you 100%. Nobody I know would criticize the great academic reputation of the Ivys, but the 'casual' fan in Delaware (and I know many), think Ivy League football as 'minor league' compared to other, better known Div. I-AA football powers, such as GSU, Montana, UD, JMU, Grambling, etc. The myth of Ivy football prominence must be very localized in the northeast, IMO.

[colgate13]

Wait, you both (FU and foghorn) don't realize that the center of everything in this world is NYC? xlolx

[OL FU]

Wait, you both (FU and foghorn) don't realize that the center of everything in this world is NYC? xlolx

I realized that for 10 years. I lived at the Grand Hyatt, Marriott on Lexington, Marriott in Times Square, Marriott - World Trade Center, The Morgans ( very cool hotel), Hilton on 7th Ave (I think) The Elysee Hotel, The Royalton and various other hotels and eventually an apartment on Park Ave in Murray Hill for a couple of years.

Now, we were talking about typical sports fans and there is nothing typical about NYC:D

[LBPop]

Hmmmm..... I think that spells, Y-A-L-E?

Was I that obvious? :rolleyes: ;)

[colgate13]

Was I that obvious? :rolleyes: ;)

Well as much as Colgate folks like to think of Ithaca as a lousy town, we all know that Cornell doesn't have a huge name - so that gave it away! :p

[Fordham]

I agree with your sentiments. Just out of curiosity, If an Ivy got blown out by GSU or Montana, How long do you think it would take for the "Our football team is too smart excuse?

:eyebrow: :eyebrow:

actually, that's when they'll start b*tching for schollies.

:o :smiley_wi :nod:

[RedRum]

Yes, I understand that you (and I) can make that distinction, but not everyone does. A little anecdote to illustrate: Last season I went up to Long Island to see the Hoyas play Stony Brook. In some circles, the name Georgetown generates some real respect and when I met some local fans I discovered it first hand. I can tell you that these people were actually proud to have Georgetown on their schedule. When I explained that the Hoyas had finished last in the PL in 2004 and had just gotten crushed by Holy Cross and Brown, it didn't seem to matter. They were thrilled to play Georgetown and would have felt some level of validation had they won that game. From a pure football point of view, it makes no sense...but I understood. They did not (or could not) separate the overall reputation of the institution from the football team.

But back to the original premise, it's indefensible that the Ivys don't participate in the I-AA playoffs and I include my name among those who would love to see them make the right decision and join in the fun. I know that you agree. :nod:
LBPop:

Hadn't seen your post because I've been away on business. Georgetown is a solid academic school with a well deserved basketball rep. I had the pleasure of watching them play at Cornell last season for Cornell's homecoming weekend. The game was difficult to watch -- a 57-7 Cornell victory. Belittle Ivy football if you must, but not from a Georgetown seat.....

[LBPop]

Belittle Ivy football if you must, but not from a Georgetown seat.....

I would not intentionally belittle any school for football or anything else. I think some other people in the thread may have done that. I simply commented that the Ivy League schools are so well respected that the satisfaction of beating them in football did not really correlate with the quality of their particular team in a given season. In fact, I expressed openly my surprise that some fans from another school were excited about playing the Hoyas in football when the Georgetown team had not earned anyone's respect on the field. By the way, I also saw that debacle in Ithaca last season. No reasonable Georgetown fan would criticize anyone's football team...except maybe their own.

My only criticism of Ivy League football is their refusal to participate in the playoffs. In my opinion the entire I-AA football community would be the better for it, if the Ivys joined in.

[OL FU]

I would not intentionally belittle any school for football or anything else. I think some other people in the thread may have done that. I simply commented that the Ivy League schools are so well respected that the satisfaction of beating them in football did not really correlate with the quality of their particular team in a given season. In fact, I expressed openly my surprise that some fans from another school were excited about playing the Hoyas in football when the Georgetown team had not earned anyone's respect on the field. By the way, I also saw that debacle in Ithaca last season. No reasonable Georgetown fan would criticize anyone's football team...except maybe their own.

My only criticism of Ivy League football is their refusal to participate in the playoffs. In my opinion the entire I-AA football community would be the better for it, if the Ivys joined in.

Without going back and reading the thread, I think most of us were disputing the Ivies football reputation around the country, not disputing their ability.

[colgate13]

Nah. If there was any disparaging comments about that correspondence school in Ithaca, it was me! :D

[RedRum]

I fully agree, LBPop. Sorry if I mischaracterized your response. I too would love to see Ivy Football in postseason play!