Big Sky Might Ditch UND

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.jamestownsun.com/event/article/id/137826/group/Sports/


Leaders of the Big Sky Conference told UND President Robert Kelley this week that continued use of the Fighting Sioux name and logo as mandated by a new state law has become a “concern” for them and could jeopardize UND’s joining the conference next year.

Furthermore, the ongoing controversy “has the possibility of destroying Division I athletics at the University of North Dakota,” they said in a letter.

Writing earlier this week on behalf of the presidents of Big Sky member schools, league Commissioner Douglas Fullerton told Kelley that the presidents “are forced to consider the ramifications of continued use of the ‘Fighting Sioux’ name” and imagery.

“When the University of North Dakota was considered and accepted for membership (on Nov. 1, 2010), this issue was (considered) ‘settled,’” Fullerton wrote. “The institution had reached an agreement with the NCAA and the conference accepted that agreement.

“Obviously, today there is a new reality, and the question has to be asked: Could this lead to a time when league play and possibly league membership itself could be affected?”

Holy cow.

[RabidRabbit]

No cow about it.

ND needs to xdeadhorsex and get the legislature the H*LL out of this issue. Sioux are gone, and UND needs to get to the replacement.

UND has already lost a game scheduled with Iowa (WBB) over this, and SDSU is looking at pulling out of 2013 FB game if not resolved. xeyebrowxxtwocentsx

[darell1976]

http://www.jamestownsun.com/event/article/id/137826/group/Sports/



Holy cow.


Kinda old news. But the reference to athletics being destroyed at UND is UND being an Independent since their AD Brian Faison said UND will not go down to DII nor go the NAIA route. So thats why Kelley came out and said retire the name. State Senator Mac Schneider (D-Grand Forks) said forget talking to the NCAA go to Bismarck and get that law repealed to expediate the retirement process. There is only 1 hurdle in this soap opera now and thats Al Carlson (R-Fargo). He still insists that he, and the govenor, and a whole cast of characters can talk to the NCAA face to face to get them to repeal their stance on the policy....well the NCAA already said "NO"!! So its over Al. Start the retirement process immediately so we can enjoy BSC competition 12 1/2 months from now.

[darell1976]

No cow about it.

ND needs to xdeadhorsex and get the legislature the H*LL out of this issue. Sioux are gone, and UND needs to get to the replacement.

UND has already lost a game scheduled with Iowa (WBB) over this, and SDSU is looking at pulling out of 2013 FB game if not resolved. xeyebrowxxtwocentsx

Instead of a horse in that pic can that be Al Carlson instead.xtroublex

[Twentysix]

Kinda old news. But the reference to athletics being destroyed at UND is UND being an Independent since their AD Brian Faison said UND will not go down to DII nor go the NAIA route. So thats why Kelley came out and said retire the name. State Senator Mac Schneider (D-Grand Forks) said forget talking to the NCAA go to Bismarck and get that law repealed to expediate the retirement process. There is only 1 hurdle in this soap opera now and thats Al Carlson (R-Fargo). He still insists that he, and the govenor, and a whole cast of characters can talk to the NCAA face to face to get them to repeal their stance on the policy....well the NCAA already said "NO"!! So its over Al. Start the retirement process immediately so we can enjoy BSC competition 12 1/2 months from now.

It's not entirely up to your ad. Upon completion of your 5 year probationary period the ncaa has to come to your campus and evaluate your school as a whole academic athletic and facilities, they then approve or decline your request for division one status. Just cause you get a 5 year probationary period does not mean you are DI.

[TheBisonator]

It's not entirely up to your ad. Upon completion of your 5 year probationary period the ncaa has to come to your campus and evaluate your school as a whole academic athletic and facilities, they then approve or decline your request for division one status. Just cause you get a 5 year probationary period does not mean you are DI.

Even though I have an obvious bias against UND, I don't think with that criteria that UND has anything to be worried about as far as being rejected for fuul DI status.

UND's issues exist in the political realm, not with anything to do with athletic budgets, academic accredidation, dilapidated facilties or anything like that.

[darell1976]

Even though I have an obvious bias against UND, I don't think with that criteria that UND has anything to be worried about as far as being rejected for fuul DI status.

UND's issues exist in the political realm, not with anything to do with athletic budgets, academic accredidation, dilapidated facilties or anything like that.

Agreed. UND does really well academically, probably towards the tops in the upper midwest. Its facilities are top notch but its all about the nickname, which by fall could finally be all over...one way or another.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

It's sad to see the Big Western states tuck tail and cow-tow to the NCAA. The members of the NCAA and another Union need to quit letting the tail wag the dog.

[dgtw]

What is this law everyone is talking about? Did the North Dakota legilature pass some bill preventing North Dakoa from changing their nickname/mascot? What would happen if they changed it anyway?

[DJKyR0]

Instead of a horse in that pic can that be Al Carlson instead.xtroublex

It's posts like these that make the thread "Sioux name may finally be saved for good!!" all the more hilarious. Everybody was all aboard the Carlson train when no one thought ahead to the possibility that the NCAA wouldn't be moved by the ND legislature passing a law forbidding the name change, yet now that they do he's suddenly the bad guy.

Have you expressed this sentiment to your fellow SS.com posters, darrell? Have you lambasted each one of them for sending e-mails asking for the law to be passed? Furthermore, what are your thoughts on your hockey coach after his e-mail campaign that threw other sports at UND under the bus, and now perhaps doom UND athletics to Independent hell? Take such time as you require to answer.

[Professor Chaos]

Perhaps Al Carlson should head up to Minot right now and see how worried the people of North Dakota are about the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo.

[Hammerhead]

Yes. Here is the bill that was passed:

http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/62-2011/documents/11-0349-02000.pdf

AN ACT to create and enact a new section to chapter 15-10 of the North Dakota Century Code, relating
to the athletic nickname and logo of the university of North Dakota.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF NORTH DAKOTA:
SECTION 1. A new section to chapter 15-10 of the North Dakota Century Code is created and
enacted as follows:
University of North Dakota fighting Sioux nickname and logo.
The intercollegiate athletic teams sponsored by the university of North Dakota shall be known as
the university of North Dakota fighting Sioux. Neither the university of North Dakota nor the state board
of higher education may take any action to discontinue the use of the fighting Sioux nickname or the
fighting Sioux logo in use on January 1, 2011. Any actions taken by the state board of higher education
and the university of North Dakota before the effective date of this Act to discontinue the use of the
fighting Sioux nickname and logo are preempted by this Act. If the national collegiate athletic
association takes any action to penalize the university of North Dakota for using the fighting Sioux
nickname or logo, the attorney general shall consider filing a federal antitrust claim against that
association.




What is this law everyone is talking about? Did the North Dakota legilature pass some bill preventing North Dakoa from changing their nickname/mascot? What would happen if they changed it anyway?

[darell1976]

It's posts like these that make the thread "Sioux name may finally be saved for good!!" all the more hilarious. Everybody was all aboard the Carlson train when no one thought ahead to the possibility that the NCAA wouldn't be moved by the ND legislature passing a law forbidding the name change, yet now that they do he's suddenly the bad guy.

Have you expressed this sentiment to your fellow SS.com posters, darrell? Have you lambasted each one of them for sending e-mails asking for the law to be passed? Furthermore, what are your thoughts on your hockey coach after his e-mail campaign that threw other sports at UND under the bus, and now perhaps doom UND athletics to Independent hell? Take such time as you require to answer.

At first I thought it was a bad idea because I was ready to accept the retirement of the nickname since November 30, 2010 (the deadline!!). Al Carlson made it sound like this bill would trump the NCAA policy and I think that is why most everyone was on board (I was on the fence after hearing the details of the bill thinking the NCAA had to follow state law), except 2 key people...Connie Tripplet and Mac Schneider both D-Grand Forks. They didn't make too much sense back then because the Big Sky couldn't kick us out and the NCAA already said the only punishment that UND would get is the hosting of playoff game ban, and wearing the logo during road playoff games ban. But now that letter from the Big Sky to UND was the wake-up call into reality, and also with the NCAA saying their policy stands we know we have to retire the name. DjKyR0 there are some on SS like Fetch and Star that are dead set against retirement and would rather see what happens but me and lot of others are now on the retirement train and would like Carlson's bill gone ASAP!!

[Redbird Ray]

I couldn't care less what UND's nickname is, but I would like to see them join the MVFC if the Big Sky pushes them out. The Alerus Center, though small, looks like a nice building, and I would love to see the fireworks between UND and NDSU on a more meaningful and regular basis.

[darell1976]

I couldn't care less what UND's nickname is, but I would like to see them join the MVFC if the Big Sky pushes them out. The Alerus Center, though small, looks like a nice building, and I would love to see the fireworks between UND and NDSU on a more meaningful and regular basis.

They could have both USD and UND except UND was never in the picture because of numbers. We will stay in the Big Sky unless something dramatic happens.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

If the national collegiate athletic association takes any action to penalize the university of North Dakota for using the fighting Sioux nickname or logo, the attorney general shall consider filing a federal antitrust claim against that association.

I'd like to see the antitrust action brought against the NCAA.

[bisonguy]

I'd like to see the antitrust action brought against the NCAA.

Read page 2 of the settlement agreement between UND and the NCAA, most specifically the last paragraph- http://www.ag.state.nd.us/ncaa/SettlementAgreement.pdf

They already brought antitrust claims and they were dismissed with prejudice.

That displays once again how stupid the legislature was in drafting this law, in addition to the fact that there is no penalty for breaking the law.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Read page 2 of the settlement agreement between UND and the NCAA, most specifically the last paragraph- http://www.ag.state.nd.us/ncaa/SettlementAgreement.pdf

They already brought antitrust claims and they were dismissed with prejudice.

That displays once again how stupid the legislature was in drafting this law, in addition to the fact that there is no penalty for breaking the law.

I understand the reference, but Plaintiff was the North Dakota State Board of Higher Education, which is not the State of North Dakota. Based on what I've read, the people of Standing Rock Tribe have no problem with the name, but certain representatives refuse to allow a referendum.

UND has an opportunity to gain a lot of publicity by taking on the NCAA over this issue. I'd bet a lot of Fighting Sioux Gear would be sold as well. If UND goes to a championship, force the NCAA to not let them play.

[darell1976]

Read page 2 of the settlement agreement between UND and the NCAA, most specifically the last paragraph- http://www.ag.state.nd.us/ncaa/SettlementAgreement.pdf

They already brought antitrust claims and they were dismissed with prejudice.

That displays once again how stupid the legislature was in drafting this law, in addition to the fact that there is no penalty for breaking the law.

Plus this wording is interesting in the law:
the attorney general shall consider filing a federal antitrust claim against that
association.

Doesn't mean he has to file a lawsuit it says he shall consider it.

[darell1976]

I understand the reference, but Plaintiff was the North Dakota State Board of Higher Education, which is not the State of North Dakota. Based on what I've read, the people of Standing Rock Tribe have no problem with the name, but certain representatives refuse to allow a referendum.

UND has an opportunity to gain a lot of publicity by taking on the NCAA over this issue. I'd bet a lot of Fighting Sioux Gear would be sold as well. If UND goes to a championship, force the NCAA to not let them play.

But while they are in court they could be out of the Big Sky and in Independent-ville which means death!

[bisonguy]

I understand the reference, but Plaintiff was the North Dakota State Board of Higher Education, which is not the State of North Dakota. Based on what I've read, the people of Standing Rock Tribe have no problem with the name, but certain representatives refuse to allow a referendum.

UND has an opportunity to gain a lot of publicity by taking on the NCAA over this issue. I'd bet a lot of Fighting Sioux Gear would be sold as well. If UND goes to a championship, force the NCAA to not let them play.

I'm far from a legal expert, but the settlement states the plaintiff as "State of North Dakota, by and through the North Dakota State Board of Higher Education, and the University of North Dakota". That said, some other legal types on UND and NDSU's boards have stated that this is an issue with more legal action, even if it's originating from the state.


As far as Standing Rock, they've been the most outspoken against the nickname for well over a decade. There was a petition to hold a vote on the nickname with approximately 1,000 signatures, but there was also a competing petition to uphold the Tribal Council's opposition to the nickname with more signatures. In the three years UND had to gain support from both tribes, Standing Rock elected a new Tribal Chair and the Tribal Council continued with their stance opposing the nickname.

[Twentysix]

Plus this wording is interesting in the law:

Doesn't mean he has to file a lawsuit it says he shall consider it.

I was under the impression the attorney general was always against this law. but it would've been his job to sue under the law. Isn't he currently speaking out against the law ?

[darell1976]

I was under the impression the attorney general was always against this law. but it would've been his job to sue under the law. Isn't he currently speaking out against the law ?

He has been asked for his opinion if its constitutional but he keeps dodging the question. He must be too busy on an issue he signed off on back in 2007.

http://www.wdaz.com/event/article/id/8598/


Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem declined a request Monday to issue a legal opinion about the University of North Dakota's Fighting Sioux nickname, saying a new law that requires UND to keep the name could end up in court.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/207399/


Stenehjem had been invited to the state board’s June meeting to discuss possible constitutional issues and litigation, but he sent regrets, saying he had to remain in Bismarck for a meeting of the state Industrial Commission, of which he is a member.

[dgtw]

Here is my favorite attempt to use PC pressure to get rid of an offensive nickname.

http://www.animalrights.net/2005/peta-wants-ncaa-ban-on-gamecock-mascot/

[Tod]

"University of South California"? Oh, and "University of Southern Carolina". Pretty stupid, alright.

[darell1976]

Here is my favorite attempt to use PC pressure to get rid of an offensive nickname.

http://www.animalrights.net/2005/peta-wants-ncaa-ban-on-gamecock-mascot/

Uh Oh watch out NDSU...PETA will come to lock up Thundar.xlolx

[jmufan]

Overreaction by the NCAA and the Big Sky. What is so wrong with the name Fighting Sioux? Personally, that is a cool name. People get offended way too easy. Political correctness stinks.

[EdubAlum]

I wonder if something else is going on here...maybe big sky members don't want und since use didn't come along for the ride and this is the scapegoat?

[Red & Black]

Big Sky isn't going to kick UND out.....I think this stuff will resolve itself before they begin conference play in 2012.xcoffeex

[100%GRIZ]

Fullerton is just being a puppet of the NCAA! He is doing this because he is pushed to do it! I personally hope UND keeps up the fight for the Great Fighting Sioux Nickname!

[gjw007]

Fullerton is just being a puppet of the NCAA! He is doing this because he is pushed to do it! I personally hope UND keeps up the fight for the Great Fighting Sioux Nickname!

I don't think they can as the consequences of being an independent will never let UND achieve long term success. I have said this before but the consequences of following the NCAA can be even more harmful to the native Americans as it effectively makes them lost in the dustbin of history never to be heard or seen again. Is that what the NCAA wants? If so, it is certainly more hostile and abusive than anything UND ever did. It is time that UND simply went on as the University of North Dakota.

[CrazyCat]

If you want to compete in the NCAA, you have to follow their rules. Sure the NCAA has some unfair and flat out stupid ones and is in serious need of updating but if you don't like it, have fun in the NAIA.

[ccd494]

If you want to compete in the NCAA, you have to follow their rules. Sure the NCAA has some unfair and flat out stupid ones and is in serious need of updating but if you don't like it, have fun in the NAIA.

Exactly. It is the National Collegiate Athletic ASSOCIATION. If you don't like the association's rules, you don't have to associate with them.

[darell1976]

ccd494 and CrazyCat you are exactly right. It is their rules and their Association. That is why I don't understand how some really die hard Sioux logo/nickname fans would choose to lose membership in the Big Sky over the name. I love the name/logo as much as any Sioux fan but its not worth disbanding all athletics to save it. The NCAA calls the shots we tried to sue them once and didn't meet the criteria of the settlement so we must follow their rules and change it. A lot more people are now joining the changing the name bandwagon who wasn't there when the state law was made (I am one of them). That state law was to make sure we keep the name by making the NCAA follow the law instead of their policy, at least that is what lawmakers told us. Well it backfired and now UND is about ready to pay the price if they can't get that law repealed (which IMO they will). By fall the name will be gone.

[Twentysix]

It would be so beautiful if UND ended up in the NAIA over this. Of course it would suck to lose a western team, but I think I could deal with the lack of a team.

Too bad that will never happen, no one can be that pig headed.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

It would be so beautiful if UND ended up in the NAIA over this. Of course it would suck to lose a western team, but I think I could deal with the lack of a team.

Too bad that will never happen, no one can be that pig headed.

Yes, it sounds like the ND legislature is a bunch of pig headed dicks for this move. I hope they come to their senses real quick.

[Gil Dobie]

Yes, it sounds like the ND legislature is a bunch of pig headed dicks for this move. I hope they come to their senses real quick.

Legislature! Senses! in the same sentence ;)

[dgtw]

What could they do if they did change the name? Throw the AD in jail? Cut off funding?

I don't agree with the PC name change (my favorite baseball team is the Braves) but they need to face facts. Even General Lee knew when to give up the fight before things got worse.

[darell1976]

What could they do if they did change the name? Throw the AD in jail? Cut off funding?

I don't agree with the PC name change (my favorite baseball team is the Braves) but they need to face facts. Even General Lee knew when to give up the fight before things got worse.

According to the law there is no said punishment if UND did change it. The only thing that is said is that if the NCAA put UND on the H&A list (which they will August 15th, unless they re-start the nickname retirement process) then the Atty Gen. will consider suing the NCAA for antitrust laws. IMO UND will retire the name. Losing the BSC membership is too great to save the name no matter what the die hard hockey fans, and Al Carlson wish.

[TheRevSFA]

I buy if your name is the Redskins, or falling down drunks, or something that could be offensive to the Native Americans, but this might..just might be stretching that quite a bit.

There's a small school (DII) in Texas called McMurry, and they were the Indians, and dropped a mascot completely as opposed to replacing history.