Patriot League 25th Aniversary Team

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

"Anniversary", Mods can you change it?

The league will formally announce their own version this fall to celebrate the 25th season of PL football.

A few names came to mind.

QB- Stambaugh (Lehigh), Vena (Colgate), Ciaccio (Holy Cross)
RB- Branch and Eachus (Colgate), Marsh (Lafayette, Lemon (Bucknell), Abdullah and Jean (Lehigh)
WR - Cecchini and Hamm (Lehigh), Dudley (Fordham), Yarborough (Lafayette), Hill (Colgate)
TE- Bergen (Lehigh)
OL - Rackley (Lehigh)

DL - Martucci and Alfson (Lehigh), Hollingsworth (Towson)
LB - There's a lot of possibilities.
DB - Byron (Lehigh)

Where would Lockbaum be? All Purpose?

[Go...gate]

"Anniversary", Mods can you change it?

The league will formally annouce their own version this fall to celebrate the 25th season of PL football.

A few names came to mind.

QB- Stambaugh (Lehigh), Vena (Colgate), Ciaccio (Holy Cross)
RB- Gamble (Colgate), Marsh (Lafayette, Lemon (Bucknell), Abdullah and Jean (Lehigh)
WR - Cecchini and Hamm (Lehigh), Dudley (Fordham), Yarborough (Lafayette), Hill (Colgate)
TE- Bergen (Lehigh)
OL - Rackley (Lehigh)

DL - Martucci and Alfson (Lehigh), Hollingsworth (Towson)
LB - There's a lot of possibilities.
DB - Byron (Lehigh)

Where would Lockbaum be? All Purpose?

I'll leave Lockbaum to the HC guys, but IMO, Gamble ranks ahead of Branch and Eachus.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

QB - Kevin Eakin (Fordham), Brad Maurer (Lafayette)
RB - Jordan Scott (Colgate), Kenny Gamble (Colgate, Payton Award winner, how can he be left out?)
WR - Greg Manusky (Colgate), Kirwin Watson (Fordham), Pat Simonds (Colgate)

PR/KR - Ari Confessor (Holy Cross), John Kennedy (Lehigh)

DL - Ian Dell (Lafayette)
LB - Marcus Bennett (Lafayette)
DB - Jarard Cribbs (Lehigh)

That's for starters, to add to GLUTUO's list.

[LUHawker]

Really, no mention of Dominick Randolph?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Really, no mention of Dominick Randolph?

I couldn't get by the fact that Kenny Gamble wasn't listed! xlolx Seriously, I agree, Randolph should probably be higher than all the QB's listed.

QB is going to be a really, really tough competition. There are so many good QBs.

[LUHawker]

This probably needs to be done as a top 3 per position ((in no particular order):

For QB: Stambaugh, Vena, Randolph
RB: Branch, Marsh, Scott
WR: Cecchini, Simonds, Yarborough
TE: Bergen (don't remember other names)

All-purpose: Lockbaum

Was Gamble at Colgate when Colgate was in the PL?

[DFW HOYA]

Thre will be some politics in the selections as well, which I expect will be a first, second and third team to accomodate all interests.

Expect lots from Colgate and Lehigh, then some from Holy Cross and Lafayette, and a sprinkling of Bucknellians. Davidson will be ignored. Someone from Towson will be added. There will be some discussion about finding someone from Georgetown to add to the third team --only 3 former GU players ever made a PL first team, and one of those was recruited in the MAAC era.

[Go...gate]

This probably needs to be done as a top 3 per position ((in no particular order):

For QB: Stambaugh, Vena, Randolph
RB: Branch, Marsh, Scott
WR: Cecchini, Simonds, Yarborough
TE: Bergen (don't remember other names)

All-purpose: Lockbaum

Was Gamble at Colgate when Colgate was in the PL?

Yes, his last two years, 1986-87.

Tough to figure with Colgate because we declined so precipitiously after 1987 for approximately a decade. But Colgate had very strong talent in the PL's first two years.

[RichH2]

Hard to believe already 25 years. Reese LU an OC , I vaguely recall a C from Gate a few yrs back who was very good, blanking on name. So many LMen on both D and O. GREAT , a project for the afternoon.

Thanks TU Owl.

[Fordham]

Skelton?

Bauer?

Rackley?

Kornegay? (DB)

[Doc QB]

QB consideration has to go to Glenn Kempa LU '91 and Scott Semptimphelter LU '94, those guys collectively threw for over 12,000 yards and 100 TDs, starting two years each. I played behind both of them, so I am admittedly biased, but they were the real deal, all due respect to Stambaugh later on, who played for four years.

Tom Ciacco was excellent as well, and he was preceded by Jeff Wiley, both guys threw the hell out of the ball, won a ton of games during Duffner's 65-10 run. Randolph was obviously awesome.

Erik Marsh, a longtime friend, just wore you down, four years worth. Has the distinction of being one of the few Bill Russo TBs that actually lasted all four years (Jack Gatehouse, Ryan Priest, Tom Costello did not, I think, please confirm Pard4Life or Carney). Great player, great guy.

Keith Petzold and Jarrod Johnson, were beasts on the OL in '89 or '90, played some on Sundays.

[Sader87]

There were multiple players on the HC (yes, scholarship teams) teams of 1986-1991 far better than most of the players that have played in the PL during the last 20 years. Should they be included? Almost a completely different playing field/type of player than the PL has seen from 1992-2010.

[DFW HOYA]

There were multiple players on the HC (yes, scholarship teams) teams of 1986-1991 far better than most of the players that have played in the PL during the last 20 years. Should they be included?

Yes.

[ngineer]

I'll leave Lockbaum to the HC guys, but IMO, Gamble ranks ahead of Branch and Eachus.

agreed.

[ngineer]

This probably needs to be done as a top 3 per position ((in no particular order):

For QB: Stambaugh, Vena, Randolph
RB: Branch, Marsh, Scott
WR: Cecchini, Simonds, Yarborough
TE: Bergen (don't remember other names)

All-purpose: Lockbaum

Was Gamble at Colgate when Colgate was in the PL?

While I hate to promote any 'pard, doesn't Frank Baur deserve some consideration..or was the that pre-Patriot League??

[Lehigh Football Nation]

QB consideration has to go to Glenn Kempa LU '91 and Scott Semptimphelter LU '94, those guys collectively threw for over 12,000 yards and 100 TDs, starting two years each. I played behind both of them, so I am admittedly biased, but they were the real deal, all due respect to Stambaugh later on, who played for four years.

Tom Ciacco was excellent as well, and he was preceded by Jeff Wiley, both guys threw the hell out of the ball, won a ton of games during Duffner's 65-10 run. Randolph was obviously awesome.


Skelton?


While I hate to promote any 'pard, doesn't Frank Baur deserve some consideration..or was the that pre-Patriot League??

Like I said, QB is going to be tough. And I still think Brad Mauer really should get serious consideration as well as all the other names on this esteemed list.

[Go...gate]

There were multiple players on the HC (yes, scholarship teams) teams of 1986-1991 far better than most of the players that have played in the PL during the last 20 years. Should they be included? Almost a completely different playing field/type of player than the PL has seen from 1992-2010.

Agreed. Colgate had a few as well. But they should be included. The Ivy League doesn't bar Mike Pyle, Chuck Mercein, Calvin Hill, Brian Dowling, Pete and Charlie Gogolak, Pat MacInally, Reggie Williams, Marty Domres, John Witkowski, Ed Marinaro, Karl Chandler, Bobby Holly and others from its all-time teams.

[Go...gate]

While I hate to promote any 'pard, doesn't Frank Baur deserve some consideration..or was the that pre-Patriot League??

No. Baur was on the cover of SI as a Patriot Leaguer. What actually happened to him? Did he blow out his arm? I remember the Colgate-Lafayette game at Fisher in '89. Great game which the Pards won, but it seemed like Baur was really suffering from tendonitis or something.

[Go...gate]

How about Horace Hamm? He transferred from Davidson to Lehigh and was a fine player. That takes care of the Wildcats.

and Towson and Georgetown have to be represented....

[Brad82]

Frank Bauer,Ryan Priest,Bruce Mcyntyre,Nick Kowgios,Chris Thatcher-from Lafayette -84-85
Marty Horn,Lee Blum,Greg Excharkis,Wes Walton,Jim Rovito,Rennie Benn-from Lehigh-84-85.
Peter Muldoon,Gil Fenerty,Bill McGovern,Lee Hull-Holy Cross, 84-85

Not sure if they meet Pat league criteria,but played against them all and remember them as their team's stand-outs.

[Sader87]

Jeff Wiley threw 7 TD passes against Lehigh in '87 (admittedly not very sporting of us)....he should be in the discussion for his overall statistics and his W-L record as a QB from '85-88...though no one else in the PL has ever been surrounded by the type of talent he had those years...Kelleher (FB), Lockbaum (HB/FL), Lewis (WR) amoungst many others.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Jeff Wiley threw 7 TD passes against Lehigh in '87 (admittedly not very sporting of us)....he should be in the discussion for his overall statistics and his W-L record as a QB from '85-88...though no one else in the PL has ever been surrounded by the type of talent he had those years...Kelleher (FB), Lockbaum (HB/FL), Lewis (WR) amoungst many others.

I still stand by my belief that Lehigh's run from '98-'01 was nearly as impressive. Look at the scores during HC's and LU's run, there's a lot of 50+ point games.

[Franks Tanks]

How about Horace Hamm? He transferred from Davidson to Lehigh and was a fine player. That takes care of the Wildcats.

and Towson and Georgetown have to be represented....


One of my coaches, who was on the team with Frank, said he had severe arm problems by his senior year and lost the zip on the ball. He signed as a FA with the Giants, but was cut after a few weeks. He lives near Wilkes-Barre and owns a small business.

I meant to reply to your question about Baur!

[Sader87]

I still stand by my belief that Lehigh's run from '98-'01 was nearly as impressive. Look at the scores during HC's and LU's run, there's a lot of 50+ point games.

Good run by the Engineers in '98-'01 and I will admit I don't think I saw Lehigh play once in that era (as HC had seemingly "given up football" during that period) but HC's run in '86-'91 was more impressive imo due mainly (particualrly the "86 and '87 squads) to not only dominating the PL but beating teams like UMass, William&Mary, Army etc. mostly rather handily. I don't think there's been a PL team since that would come within 2 or 3 TD's of the 1987 HC squad.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Blog posting ideas galore in this thread.

[ngineer]

How about Horace Hamm? He transferred from Davidson to Lehigh and was a fine player. That takes care of the Wildcats.

and Towson and Georgetown have to be represented....

Howabout Dave Meggett. I remember he played at Goodman for Towson, but I can't recall if that was before they joined the PL.

[ngineer]

Good run by the Engineers in '98-'01 and I will admit I don't think I saw Lehigh play once in that era (as HC had seemingly "given up football" during that period) but HC's run in '86-'91 was more impressive imo due mainly (particualrly the "86 and '87 squads) to not only dominating the PL but beating teams like UMass, William&Mary, Army etc. mostly rather handily. I don't think there's been a PL team since that would come within 2 or 3 TD's of the 1987 HC squad.

I think the 1999 Lehigh team that lost to National Champ UMass 26-21 would have given them a run. LU was on UMass 9 yard line at the end of the game.

[ngineer]

Jeff Wiley threw 7 TD passes against Lehigh in '87 (admittedly not very sporting of us)....he should be in the discussion for his overall statistics and his W-L record as a QB from '85-88...though no one else in the PL has ever been surrounded by the type of talent he had those years...Kelleher (FB), Lockbaum (HB/FL), Lewis (WR) amoungst many others.

Yes, I was there for that debacle. HC was still throwing the ball downfield while up by 50 in the fourth quarter. PA's Governor Bob Casey (an HC grad) was on hand at old Taylor Stadium with one of those oversized checks as 'seed money' for Lehigh's Ben Franklin Center. I think he was embarrassed, too. BTW, it took Casey four tries to finally get elected, leading to his nickname, "The Three Time Loss from Holy Cross". (;-)

[ngineer]

How about Horace Hamm? He transferred from Davidson to Lehigh and was a fine player. That takes care of the Wildcats.

and Towson and Georgetown have to be represented....

Yes, Hamm was one of Lehigh's all-time deep threats. He "had a cup of coffee" in the NFL with Green Bay for a year or two.

[ngineer]

"Anniversary", Mods can you change it?

The league will formally announce their own version this fall to celebrate the 25th season of PL football.

A few names came to mind.

QB- Stambaugh (Lehigh), Vena (Colgate), Ciaccio (Holy Cross)
RB- Branch and Eachus (Colgate), Marsh (Lafayette, Lemon (Bucknell), Abdullah and Jean (Lehigh)
WR - Cecchini and Hamm (Lehigh), Dudley (Fordham), Yarborough (Lafayette), Hill (Colgate)
TE- Bergen (Lehigh)
OL - Rackley (Lehigh)

DL - Martucci and Alfson (Lehigh), Hollingsworth (Towson)
LB - There's a lot of possibilities.
DB - Byron (Lehigh)

Where would Lockbaum be? All Purpose?


WHO is going to be doing the selecting/voting??? Hell of a lot of excellent players to be mused over....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

WHO is going to be doing the selecting/voting??? Hell of a lot of excellent players to be mused over....

Not sure. The list will be announced this summer, not this fall.

"The Patriot League will also celebrate its 25th Anniversary season in 2011, which will include a 25th Anniversary team to be released during the summer. The "unofficial" start to the season comes at Patriot League Football Media Day on August 2, right before the start of fall practice. "

http://www.patriotleague.org/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/060111aab.html

[Brad82]

I saw Holy Cross play in 88=a power,also were really good (great) prior also.
Perfect example of how administration impacts a football program (never been the same since).
Cautionary tale as to how down-shifting does not always work.

[Franks Tanks]

I saw Holy Cross play in 88=a power,also were really good (great) prior also.
Perfect example of how administration impacts a football program (never been the same since).
Cautionary tale as to how down-shifting does not always work.

True, and the rest of the PL was also stronger at the time. Colgate had some very strong teams in that era, and Lafayette actually beat that Holy Cross squad in 1988 (although I understand the 87 Saders were better).


I will throw out a lot of the same names, but I will give it a try.

QB-- Baur, Stanbaugh, Vena, Randolph, and Eakin. (Skelton is certainly in the conversation)

RB- Costello, Marsh, Abdullah, Lemon, Gamble, Branch, and Eachus.

WR- Yarborough, Dudley, Hill, and Pat Simond (or is it Simmons).

OL- Rackley, Wroblewski, Clasby, Babb, Padilla, and Pard94!

TE- Bergen, Skelton.

DL- Hollingsworth (an absolute beast), Gregorek, Jon Green, Adam Lord, Poluka, Gomez, Mariucci.

LB- Nepa, Constanzo, Bengle, Eason, Cohen, and Romans

DB's- B.J Gallis, Lockbaum


Apologies to Holy Cross folks-- I don't know the guys from your late 80's early 90's teams. My list is not inclusive.

[Go...gate]

Good run by the Engineers in '98-'01 and I will admit I don't think I saw Lehigh play once in that era (as HC had seemingly "given up football" during that period) but HC's run in '86-'91 was more impressive imo due mainly (particualrly the "86 and '87 squads) to not only dominating the PL but beating teams like UMass, William&Mary, Army etc. mostly rather handily. I don't think there's been a PL team since that would come within 2 or 3 TD's of the 1987 HC squad.

Arguably the greatest I-AA/FCS team ever.

[DFW HOYA]

Arguably the greatest I-AA/FCS team ever.

Have to disagree, owing that 1) Holy Cross never competed in a playoff format, 2) a majority of its wins were against nonscholarship teams while it had scholarships, and 3) it never played an opponent west of Bucknell or south of William & Mary. How would HC have fared against, say, Roy Kidd's EKU team?

The 1992-96 Marshall teams under Jim Donnan and Erk Russell's 85-86 Georgia Southern teams are probably #1 and #1A in the best ever discussion.

[CrusaderBob]

Have to disagree, owing that 1) Holy Cross never competed in a playoff format, 2) a majority of its wins were against nonscholarship teams while it had scholarships, and 3) it never played an opponent west of Bucknell or south of William & Mary. How would HC have fared against, say, Roy Kidd's EKU team?

The 1992-96 Marshall teams under Jim Donnan and Erk Russell's 85-86 Georgia Southern teams are probably #1 and #1A in the best ever discussion.

That 1987 Holy Cross team beat:

Army 34-24 on the road
UMass 54 - 10 on the road
William & Mary 40 - 7 at home
Villanova 39 - 6 on the road

To me, that makes the point arguable. Not a foregone conclusion, but they are in the discussion.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That 1987 Holy Cross team beat:

Army 34-24 on the road
UMass 54 - 10 on the road
William & Mary 40 - 7 at home
Villanova 39 - 6 on the road

To me, that makes the point arguable. Not a foregone conclusion, but they are in the discussion.

Their best win was, by far, that win over Army. Aside from that, what really sticks out is the fact that no other team came close to beating them. They outclassed every other opponent that played them - and not just PL teams, but YankCon teams and Ivy teams, too.

[Go...gate]

That 1987 Holy Cross team beat:

Army 34-24 on the road
UMass 54 - 10 on the road
William & Mary 40 - 7 at home
Villanova 39 - 6 on the road

To me, that makes the point arguable. Not a foregone conclusion, but they are in the discussion.

They also beat 7-4 Colgate, which played the toughest schedule in I-AA (Army, #2 Syracuse and Duke), 49-7, and Colgate ended up #7 in the NY Times I-AA rankings. Colgate only lost two I-AA games all year - to HC and by one point to Lehigh.

[DFW HOYA]

That 1987 Holy Cross team beat:

Army 34-24 on the road
UMass 54 - 10 on the road
William & Mary 40 - 7 at home
Villanova 39 - 6 on the road

To me, that makes the point arguable. Not a foregone conclusion, but they are in the discussion.

In the discussion, yes, but still not the best ever. The Crusaders' win over Army is notable, but note the Cadets were 5-6 on the season, with wins over a winless Kansas State team, Citadel, Temple, Lafayette, and a 2-9 Navy team. None were above .500, nor were W&M or UMass.

By contrast, that 1996 Marshall team won at Statesboro, won at Boone, and everywhere in between--no team was closer than two touchdowns in any game. The Herd (15-0) averaged 48 points per game in the playoffs (yes, on friendly soil, but impressive nonethless), with wins over Delaware (59-14), Furman (54-0), UNI (31-14), and Montana (49-29). Scored 658 points in one season. No way to compare across the years, but Marshall was strong enough to jump up to I-A the next season AND win 10 games the next season!

Imagine if Rev. Brooks had changed course in 1987 and recommitted to I-A. How things would be different today...

[Sader87]

That "87 Army game wasn't as close as the final indicates ...Holy Cross was up 27-3 at the half and 34-10 going into the 4th quarter. BC only beat Army 29-24 that year...oh for one more game against BC that year!!!!

[ngineer]

I'd throw Rich Owens into the DL discussion. Guy was a 5th round draft pick and had a decent NFL career.

[Franks Tanks]

I'd through Rich Owens into the DL discussion. Guy was a 5th round draft pick and had a decent NFL career.

Forgot about him-he should certainly be included as well.

[Go...gate]

That "87 Army game wasn't as close as the final indicates ...Holy Cross was up 27-3 at the half and 34-10 going into the 4th quarter. BC only beat Army 29-24 that year...oh for one more game against BC that year!!!!

You guys also ended the season #1 in the I-AA polls. Play-offs don't always tell the full story. That was a dominant team which could hold its own with many fine I-A teams of the time. I had the pleasure of seeing them a couple of times that year and they were the real deal.

[RichH2]

I've been going thru the prior ALL PL squads just for Linemen. Trying to winnow down the list w/o some homer bias nigh on impossible. There are so many muliple all PL guys many of whom I do not remember. I will try to post a list this weekend ( including Pard 94xnodx)

[Go...gate]

I've been going thru the prior ALL PL squads just for Linemen. Trying to winnow down the list w/o some homer bias nigh on impossible. There are so many muliple all PL guys many of whom I do not remember. I will try to post a list this weekend ( including Pard 94xnodx)

A lot of good lines which blocked well for a lot of good QBs and RBs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Do we have to include Pard94? xlolx

I better say I'm kidding right away, or else he'll hunt me down during Lehigh/UNH and kick my ***. Though he might do that anyway. xlolx

[RichH2]

Just finished a short list of Lahigh guys. PL list must wait for weekend.

Nick martucci DE
Joe Uliana OG
Mike Kosko DT
Kent Weaver OT
Mike Moriarty OG
Brian Jackson DT
John Reese OC
Jeff Santacroce OT
Keith Petzold OT
Tom Alfsen DE


To add to those already mentioned.

Some other LU guys to mention

Dave Cecchini wr
Ron Jean rb
Tim Diamond lb
Josh Snyder WR

ben talbott P

[carney2]

Erik Marsh, a longtime friend, just wore you down, four years worth. Has the distinction of being one of the few Bill Russo TBs that actually lasted all four years (Jack Gatehouse, Ryan Priest, Tom Costello did not, I think, please confirm Pard4Life or Carney). Great player, great guy.

I'm doing this from memory, so my chances for accuracy are less than 50-50, but I believe that Ryan Priest, although beset with some injuries, lasted all four years. I also believe that he was pre-Patriot League. The first year for the League was 1986, and the Lafayette tailback that year was Bruce McIntyre.

[Brad82]

Priest was always banged up.
McIntyre replaced him and was just as good.

[Go...gate]

A few of Colgate's players worthy of recognition 1986-1995, IMO (I hope my fellow Red Raiders will add others):
Mike Powers K
Kenny Gamble RB
Greg Manusky LB
Tony Khalife DT
Matt Jaworski LB
George Delaney WR
Bill Sparacio RB
Dave Goodwin QB

[RichH2]

25 yrs of linemen is an impossible task. My try at some out of hundreds.

LU
Morgan D
Johnson O


Cross
George O
Claro O
McDonald D

Bucknell

Lord D
Conover D
Adams D
Meenan O

Pards

Bellucci O
Pyne O
Bailey D
Colosimo O

Padilla O
Saint Germain O
Hudak O

Rams
Jones D
Manno O
Novak O

Towson

Hollingsworth D

Gate

Sclafani O
Gomes D
George O
Gerard O

Hoyas

Onoibaku D
Buzbee D

Certainly a bunch more that could be added. I'll be interested how PL selects.

[TheValleyRaider]

A few of Colgate's players worthy of recognition 1986-1995, IMO (I hope my fellow Red Raiders will add others):
Mike Powers K
Kenny Gamble RB
Greg Manusky LB
Tony Khalife DT
Matt Jaworski LB
George Delaney WR
Bill Sparacio RB
Dave Goodwin QB

Well, I can only claim to have been watching since 2003, but I'll throw out:
Jamaal Branch RB
Marc Sclafani OG
Jared Nepa LB
Mike Gallihugh LB
Nate Eachus RB
Jordan Scott RB
Mike Brown QB
Greg Sullivan QB
Nick Hennessey OT
Tem Lukabu LB
Luke Graham WR
Lane Schwarzberg K
Pat Simonds WR

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

We need a list of All League, OPOY, DPOY and All Americans per team as well as stat rankings.

QB will come down to Stambaugh, Vena, Baur, Ciaccio and Randolph imo. Personally, i would pick Vena.

[TheValleyRaider]

http://www.patriotleague.org/school-bio/patr-all-time-awards-m-footbl.html

Patriot League Offensive Player of the Year
1986 - Kenny Gamble, RB, Colgate
1987 - Jeff Wiley, QB, Holy Cross
1988 - Frank Bauer, QB, Lafayette
1989 - Tom Costello, RB, Lafayette
1990 - Tom Ciaccio, QB, Holy Cross
1991 - Horace Hamm, WR, Lehigh
1992 - Erik Marsh, TB, Lafayette
1993 - Erik Marsh, TB, Lafayette
1994 - Rich Lemon, TB, Bucknell
1995 - Brian Klingerman, WR, Lehigh
1996 - Anthony Caravetta, RB, Colgate
1997 - Daymon Smith, RB, Colgate
1998 - Corey Hill, WR, Colgate
1999 - Ronald Jean, RB, Lehigh
2000 - Phil Yarberough, WR, Lafayette
2001 - Josh Snyder, WR, Lehigh
2002 - Kirwin Watson, RB, Fordham
2003 - Jamaal Branch, RB, Colgate
2004 - Joe McCourt, RB, Lafayette
2005 - Steve Silva, RB, Holy Cross
2006 - Jonathan Hurt, RB, Lafayette
2007 - Dominic Randolph, QB, Holy Cross
2008 - Dominic Randolph, QB, Holy Cross
2009 - Dominic Randolph, QB, Holy Cross
2010 - Nate Eachus, RB, Colgate

Patriot League Defensive Player of the Year
1986 - Jerry McCabe, LB, Holy Cross
1987 - Greg Manusky, LB, Colgate
1988 - Rob McGovern, LB, Holy Cross
1989 - Dave Murphy, CB, Holy Cross
1990 - Craig Callahan, LB, Holy Cross
1991 - Corey Vincent, DL, Holy Cross
1992 - Mark Blazejewski, LB, Fordham/Tom McDonald, DL, Holy Cross
1993 - Aaron Dougherty, LB, Fordham
1994 - Pat Smith, FS, Holy Cross
1995 - Ed Burman, DE, Bucknell
1996 - B.J. Gallis, SS, Lafayette
1997 - Dan Bengele, LB, Lafayette
1998 - Nick Martucci, DL, Lehigh
1999 - Ian Eason, LB, Lehigh
2000 - Andrew Hollingsworth, DE, Towson
2001 - Abdul Byron, DB, Lehigh
2002 - Adam Lord, DL, Bucknell/Tem Lukabu, LB, Colgate
2003 - Tem Lukabu, LB, Colgate
2004 - Sean Conover, DL, Bucknell
2005 - Jared Nepa, LB, Colgate
2006 - Marcus Taylor, LB, Fordham
2007 - Andy Romans, LB, Lafayette
2008 - Andy Romans, LB, Lafayette
2009 - Matt Cohen, LB, Lehigh
2010 - Zach Smith, DL, Colgate

Also included this:
Patriot League All-Anniversary Team (1986-00)
Hunter Adams, Bucknell (DL, 1998)
Mark Blazejewski, Fordham (LB, 1992)
Ed Burman, Bucknell (DL, 1996)
Craig Callahan, Holy Cross (LB, 1991)
Barry Cantrell, Fordham (P, 1998)
Dave Cecchini, Lehigh (WR, 1993)
Tom Ciaccio, Holy Cross (QB, 1992)
Paul Clasby, Colgate (OL, 2000)
Matt Cope, Lafayette (DB, 1996)
Ian Eason, Lehigh (LB, 1999)
B.J. Gallis, Lafayette (DB, 1997)
Kenny Gamble, Colgate (RB, 1988)
Luke George, Colgate (OL, 1999)
Corey Hill, Colgate (WR, 1999)
Rich Lemon, Bucknell (RB, 1987)
Gordie Lockbaum, Holy Cross (RB, 1988)
Greg Manusky, Colgate (WR, 1999)
Erik Marsh, Lafayette (RB, 1995)
Nick Martucci, Lehigh (DL, 1998)
Jason McLaughlin, Lafayette (PK, 1995)
Mariusz Misiec, Bucknell (OL, 1998)
Dave Murphy, Holy Cross (DB, 1990)
Ryan Vena, Colgate (QB, 2000)
Corey Vincent, Holy Cross (DL, 1992)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'd put Simonds on there solely based on what he did against Lehigh. He absolutely torched us - won the game in 2009 singlehandedly at Murray Goodman and caught 3 passes in 2010 for 3 TDs, making him have something like 6 TDs in two (three?) games against us. Scott never beat us singlehandedly, Eachus hasn't beaten us singlehandedly (yet), but Simonds sure did.

Let's put it this way. I was extremely glad to see that kid graduate.

[colorless raider]

Well, I can only claim to have been watching since 2003, but I'll throw out:
Jamaal Branch RB
Marc Sclafani OG
Jared Nepa LB
Mike Gallihugh LB
Nate Eachus RB
Jordan Scott RB
Mike Brown QB
Greg Sullivan QB
Nick Hennessey OT
Tem Lukabu LB
Luke Graham WR
Lane Schwarzberg K
Pat Simonds WR

I would add Corey Hill wr. He is going into the Colgate Hall of Honor this Fall.

[ngineer]

I'd put Simonds on there solely based on what he did against Lehigh. He absolutely torched us - won the game in 2009 singlehandedly at Murray Goodman and caught 3 passes in 2010 for 3 TDs, making him have something like 6 TDs in two (three?) games against us. Scott never beat us singlehandedly, Eachus hasn't beaten us singlehandedly (yet), but Simonds sure did.

Let's put it this way. I was extremely glad to see that kid graduate.

You're off a year. Last year we torched the 'gate at Goodman. Simonds broke our backs up in the boondocks.

Forgot about Eason at LB--the kid was the fastest LB I ever say. Moreover, he was 16 when he came to Lehigh and graduated at the age of 20. Had a 'cup of coffee' with the Cincinnati Bengals I recall.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You're off a year. Last year we torched the 'gate at Goodman. Simonds broke our backs up in the boondocks.

Forgot about Eason at LB--the kid was the fastest LB I ever say. Moreover, he was 16 when he came to Lehigh and graduated at the age of 20. Had a 'cup of coffee' with the Cincinnati Bengals I recall.

I remember Simonds having a big game against Lehigh in 2008. That's the year Colgate rallied late and was aided by Lehigh's inability to kick an XP. With that said, Corey Hill was the better wr.

The young linebacker you remember is Kevin Jefferson. I believe he played at Lehigh from '90-'93. I know he was teamates with All-American Lee Picoriello.

[hawkineer]

At running back, anyone remember Rabih Abdullah? Probably the best back Lehigh had in the past 25 years.

College career
Abdullah played for Lehigh University from 1993-1997. In 1995, as a junior, he rushed for 1,536 yards, setting the school's single-season rushing record as Lehigh finished 8-3 and won the Patriot League. He also set the school record for rushing yards in a single game, with 266 yards on the ground in a 34-23 victory over Colgate. 1996, which would have been his senior season, was cut short by a serious knee injury, but he was able to secure a medical redshirt, and return for a fifth season. His final season at Lehigh was in 1997, when he rushed for a total of 1,225 yards, earning the Archibald Cup, which is awarded annually to Lehigh's most outstanding player. In his final collegiate game, against arch-rival Lafayette, his efforts in a 43-31 Lehigh victory earned him the rivalry's annual Most Outstanding Player Award. He finished his career with a total of 3,696 yards on the ground, a school record.

[hawkineer]

I still stand by my belief that Lehigh's run from '98-'01 was nearly as impressive. Look at the scores during HC's and LU's run, there's a lot of 50+ point games.
Since the playing field was much more level in '98-'01, Lehigh's run was more impressive. With the benefits of scholarships, Holy Cross's run was a case of a team bringing a gun to a knife fight.

[ngineer]

At running back, anyone remember Rabih Abdullah? Probably the best back Lehigh had in the past 25 years.

College career
Abdullah played for Lehigh University from 1993-1997. In 1995, as a junior, he rushed for 1,536 yards, setting the school's single-season rushing record as Lehigh finished 8-3 and won the Patriot League. He also set the school record for rushing yards in a single game, with 266 yards on the ground in a 34-23 victory over Colgate. 1996, which would have been his senior season, was cut short by a serious knee injury, but he was able to secure a medical redshirt, and return for a fifth season. His final season at Lehigh was in 1997, when he rushed for a total of 1,225 yards, earning the Archibald Cup, which is awarded annually to Lehigh's most outstanding player. In his final collegiate game, against arch-rival Lafayette, his efforts in a 43-31 Lehigh victory earned him the rivalry's annual Most Outstanding Player Award. He finished his career with a total of 3,696 yards on the ground, a school record.

Oh, no. Don't forget about Jack Rizzo's torching the Leotards for 313 yards in 1971. Don Diorio, the halfback had 195 as well that day. Still, Abdullah was probably our greatest back since we joined the PL in 1986.

[ngineer]

I remember Simonds having a big game against Lehigh in 2008. That's the year Colgate rallied late and was aided by Lehigh's inability to kick an XP. With that said, Corey Hill was the better wr.

The young linebacker you remember is Kevin Jefferson. I believe he played at Lehigh from '90-'93. I know he was teamates with All-American Lee Picoriello.

You are correct. I guess Eason followed Jefferson. And that 2008 game was a backbreaker we had a nice lead, lost it, and then 'almost' got into field goal range but to no avail.

[Sader87]

Since the playing field was much more level in '98-'01, Lehigh's run was more impressive. With the benefits of scholarships, Holy Cross's run was a case of a team bringing a gun to a knife fight.

And we shot a cap in all of your asses....I agree it was unfair but the PL has to go schollie going forward or its doomed to irrelevancy (it's pretty close now).

[Go...gate]

At running back, anyone remember Rabih Abdullah? Probably the best back Lehigh had in the past 25 years.

College career
Abdullah played for Lehigh University from 1993-1997. In 1995, as a junior, he rushed for 1,536 yards, setting the school's single-season rushing record as Lehigh finished 8-3 and won the Patriot League. He also set the school record for rushing yards in a single game, with 266 yards on the ground in a 34-23 victory over Colgate. 1996, which would have been his senior season, was cut short by a serious knee injury, but he was able to secure a medical redshirt, and return for a fifth season. His final season at Lehigh was in 1997, when he rushed for a total of 1,225 yards, earning the Archibald Cup, which is awarded annually to Lehigh's most outstanding player. In his final collegiate game, against arch-rival Lafayette, his efforts in a 43-31 Lehigh victory earned him the rivalry's annual Most Outstanding Player Award. He finished his career with a total of 3,696 yards on the ground, a school record.

I saw that 1995 Lehigh-Colgate game in Hamilton and Abdullah owned us that day. We were set up to stop him and it made no difference. Lehigh also won the game, 20-9.

[Go...gate]

That Engineer tight end who dominated the 1993 Lafayette-Lehigh game - I believe his name was Mark LaFair - deserves some consideration. He was like Mark Bavaro - he would catch a pass and carry about four-five tacklers down the field.

[LEHIGH61]

Please don't forget Jermaine Pugh. Did AMAZING things for Lehigh. He's got to be considered one of the leagues's best. Speed, deception, and power from a 5 feet 6inch running back.

[RichH2]

mark was an excellent TE w/o Bergen's speed Jefferson certainly one of the top 5 LBs ever at LU. Had a couple of years in NFL ,i think with Bengals.

here comes my old fogie, Rabih one of the best Ive ever seen in PL. Rizzo not as big but much faster and athletic. Different O and level of overall talent between their 2 squads. I have to give the edge to Jack by a hair. He graduated into NFL lockout. Played 1 yr for the Giants. Pugh also up there with Jean, torain ,Gardner. Rizzo and Rabih at a higher level by a bit.

[Franks Tanks]

Please don't forget Jermaine Pugh. Did AMAZING things for Lehigh. He's got to be considered one of the leagues's best. Speed, deception, and power from a 5 feet 6inch running back.

Pugh was good, but Jean was better. Also please remember we are talking about the best players in the history of the PL, not a few guys that played for Lehigh that were pretty good.

Will all due respect to Pugh, he is not in the conversation of best ever backs in the PL when we have guys like Marsh, Gamble, Lemon, Branch, Abdullah, and Eachus already on the list.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Pugh was good, but Jean was better. Also please remember we are talking about the best players in the history of the PL, not a few guys that played for Lehigh that were pretty good.

Will all due respect to Pugh, he is not in the conversation of best ever backs in the PL when we have guys like Marsh, Gamble, Lemon, Branch, Abdullah, and Eachus already on the list.

Ron Jean was damned good, but I think he misses out on this list of giants. And you forgot Jordan Scott, too, on your list as well.

[Franks Tanks]

I would have Scott just off the list. He was very good and produced at a high level, but I think the others guys were a bit bigger and faster.

I would also include Matt Salvaterra of Lehigh on the list. He was a player.

[TheValleyRaider]

I would have Scott just off the list. He was very good and produced at a high level, but I think the others guys were a bit bigger and faster.

See, I think Scott's numbers will get him on this team even before other Colgate guys like Branch and Gamble. He leads or is near the top of virtually every school and PL rushing record list. Guys like Gamble, Branch and Eachus are great physical talents, and deserve the accolades they've earned, but the shear weight of Scott's numbers will, I think put him on this team before them xtwocentsx

[RichH2]

Wow, i had forgotten Matt. One of the best cb s ever at LU. Not familiar enuf with others to even guess where he would fit overall. Of course if one of the measures was how much he could p*ss off opposing fans and coaches, he would have to be near the top of the list:)

[Franks Tanks]

See, I think Scott's numbers will get him on this team even before other Colgate guys like Branch and Gamble. He leads or is near the top of virtually every school and PL rushing record list. Guys like Gamble, Branch and Eachus are great physical talents, and deserve the accolades they've earned, but the shear weight of Scott's numbers will, I think put him on this team before them xtwocentsx

Good points, and there is no easy answer. A very strong case can be made for Scott.

[Franks Tanks]

Wow, i had forgotten Matt. One of the best cb s ever at LU. Not familiar enuf with others to even guess where he would fit overall. Of course if one of the measures was how much he could p*ss off opposing fans and coaches, he would have to be near the top of the list:)

Since I discounted one Lehigh guy, I figured I would balance it out by adding another.

[DFW HOYA]

This reads like the team will essentially be a mix of four schools (Leh, Laf, HC, Colg), and a name or two to Bucknell and Fordham. The only suspense might be if Georgetown, Towson, or Davidson get a mention or not.

[andy7171]

I immediately thought of Andrew Hollingworth as a Towson rep. WR Jamal White had 219 PL receptions in the late 90's as well. Also RB Jason Corle had 3600 rushing yards and 33 rushing TDs in his 4 years in the PL.
I'd also mention Jamal Bushrod(New Orleans Saints starting LT), but I think he only played 2 season in the PL before Towson made the move to the A-10/CAA.

Towson was a I-AA independant from '88-'96. So Meggett, Vinson, Crowley, Orlando, ect do not qualify for PL teams.


edit: Corle also haf 1700 receiving yards and 17 TDs

[RichH2]

:)Thanks Tanks. Put hollingsworth on my partial list of linemen. He was an absolute terror. Hoyas have a couple of DL worth mention. Could not find nor do I recall any Davidson players that could get on a 3 deep Team.

In reality there are so many deserving players over 25 years any list will omit a number of players who deserve to be included

[Go...gate]

mark was an excellent TE w/o Bergen's speed Jefferson certainly one of the top 5 LBs ever at LU. Had a couple of years in NFL ,i think with Bengals.

here comes my old fogie, Rabih one of the best Ive ever seen in PL. Rizzo not as big but much faster and athletic. Different O and level of overall talent between their 2 squads. I have to give the edge to Jack by a hair. He graduated into NFL lockout. Played 1 yr for the Giants. Pugh also up there with Jean, torain ,Gardner. Rizzo and Rabih at a higher level by a bit.

I hear you - I keep thinking of Hubbard, Van Eeghen, Kim McQuillken...

[Go...gate]

This reads like the team will essentially be a mix of four schools (Leh, Laf, HC, Colg), and a name or two to Bucknell and Fordham. The only suspense might be if Georgetown, Towson, or Davidson get a mention or not.

Not really. I can think of several candidates from both Bucknell (Given, Bernadini and Lemon immediately come to mind) and Fordham, just have been thinking mostly of Colgate up to now.

[Go...gate]

I immediately thought of Andrew Hollingworth as a Towson rep. WR Jamal White had 219 PL receptions in the late 90's as well. Also RB Jason Corle had 3600 rushing yards and 33 rushing TDs in his 4 years in the PL.
I'd also mention Jamal Bushrod(New Orleans Saints starting LT), but I think he only played 2 season in the PL before Towson made the move to the A-10/CAA.

Towson was a I-AA independant from '88-'96. So Meggett, Vinson, Crowley, Orlando, ect do not qualify for PL teams.

edit: Corle also haf 1700 receiving yards and 17 TDs

Right. Towson has some fine candidates as well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Onobiaku and/or Etekuren will probably be the Georgetown representative(s). Any others?

[colorless raider]

See, I think Scott's numbers will get him on this team even before other Colgate guys like Branch and Gamble. He leads or is near the top of virtually every school and PL rushing record list. Guys like Gamble, Branch and Eachus are great physical talents, and deserve the accolades they've earned, but the shear weight of Scott's numbers will, I think put him on this team before them xtwocentsx

Gamble was far and away the best of the three followed by Branch. Forget the numbers and consider the competition.

[colorless raider]

:)Thanks Tanks. Put hollingsworth on my partial list of linemen. He was an absolute terror. Hoyas have a couple of DL worth mention. Could not find nor do I recall any Davidson players that could get on a 3 deep Team.

In reality there are so many deserving players over 25 years any list will omit a number of players who deserve to be included

How about Horace Hamm-Davidson/Lehigh?

[ngineer]

Gamble is my pick from Colgate. I've seen them all, and he seemed to do it effortlessly. Smooth as silk and effective as a sledgehammer.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Abdul Byron is one of the best secondary players i've seen at this level. He was an unbelievable player in all aspects, including speacial teams. Byron absolutely deserves to be on the list imo. I believe he was a two time first team All American. Salvaterra was very good, Byron was great.

I've settled on Hamm, Hill and Yarberough as my top 3 wr's. Gamble, Lockbaum and Marsh would be my top 3 RB's. Vena, Stambaugh and Ciaccio for QB's.

Great read from 1991.
http://articles.philly.com/1991-08-29/sports/25807895_1_preseason-honors-holy-cross-patriot-league-defensive-player

[TheValleyRaider]

Gamble was far and away the best of the three followed by Branch. Forget the numbers and consider the competition.

That's probably true, though I sadly cannot claim to have watched Gamble play (or really any Colgate football prior to 2003). Still, these sorts of things are as much political as they are anything, which is why Scott, with his numbers/records and the fact he played recently, will likely put him on this team

This is assuming, of course, they do it like an actual team (1 QB, 2 RB, 5 OL, etc), rather than just picking, say, the "Greatest 25 players in PL history"

[Lafalumni29]

Does anyone remember Phil Ng? How does he compare on that receiver list? I don't see him in any of the record books other than making the HM all-american team. But, I remember how all of the coaches talked about him.

[Franks Tanks]

Does anyone remember Phil Ng? How does he compare on that receiver list? I don't see him in any of the record books other than making the HM all-american team. But, I remember how all of the coaches talked about him.

I didn't seem him play, but I understand he was very good. I believe he was Lafayette's leading reciever at one point, but has been erased as football becomes more pass happy each year.

[LUHawker]

Abdul Byron is one of the best secondary players i've seen at this level. He was an unbelievable player in all aspects, including speacial teams. Byron absolutely deserves to be on the list imo. I believe he was a two time first team All American. Salvaterra was very good, Byron was great.

I've settled on Hamm, Hill and Yarberough as my top 3 wr's. Gamble, Lockbaum and Marsh would be my top 3 RB's. Vena, Stambaugh and Ciaccio for QB's.

Great read from 1991.
http://articles.philly.com/1991-08-29/sports/25807895_1_preseason-honors-holy-cross-patriot-league-defensive-player

That Lehigh-HC game that was headlined in the article is still the most exciting football game I have ever seen - and Lehigh lost, to put my comment in context.

[RichH2]

Guess we could give Davidson a 1/2 star for Pete Hammxthumbsupx.

[Go...gate]

Gamble was far and away the best of the three followed by Branch. Forget the numbers and consider the competition.

And yet the numbers were terrific anyway!

[Go...gate]

That's probably true, though I sadly cannot claim to have watched Gamble play (or really any Colgate football prior to 2003). Still, these sorts of things are as much political as they are anything, which is why Scott, with his numbers/records and the fact he played recently, will likely put him on this team

This is assuming, of course, they do it like an actual team (1 QB, 2 RB, 5 OL, etc), rather than just picking, say, the "Greatest 25 players in PL history"

Gamble was a pleasure to watch, whether he was running against Syracuse or Cornell. Strong and fast.

[Kramden]

Colgate has had many great running backs during the last 25 years, but I agree with the posts who put Kenny Gamble a notch above the others. He did it with such ease and the program played tougher competition back then.

[ngineer]

I agree on Gamble. I have seen all the great Colgate RBs going back to Van Eeghan, and he ranks at the top. He had power, speed and just seemed to glide across the field. I remember remarking to someone that he reminded me of the Bobby Orr appeared to effortlessly just weave his way up the ice unimpeded.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/07/25th-anniversary-all-patriot-team-part.html#more

Here are my picks for the 25th anniversary team. I think Lafayette fans will think the list more than fair. Part One - Defense, and (as an added bonus), punter.

[LUHawker]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/07/25th-anniversary-all-patriot-team-part.html#more

Here are my picks for the 25th anniversary team. I think Lafayette fans will think the list more than fair. Part One - Defense, and (as an added bonus), punter.

Me thinks you over-compensate to avoid the appearance of bias. Still, a very good list.

[Franks Tanks]

Really-- 3 Lafayette players is overcompensating? We have Blake Costanzo, one of only 3 PL players currently in the NFL. Andy Romans who was two time PL defensive player of the year, and the only person to ever achieve that honor from what I can tell. Lastly B.J Gallis was an absolute beast and played in the CFL for several years.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Does anyone remember Phil Ng? How does he compare on that receiver list? I don't see him in any of the record books other than making the HM all-american team. But, I remember how all of the coaches talked about him.

I absolutely remember Phil Ng. He and Frank Baur just seemed to be on the same page more often than not. It helped, of course, that Baur could launch those bombs with a touch that floated the ball gently into Phil's hands. no matter what the coverage. It's fair to say that I haven't seen and receiver at Lafayette so consistently dominant sine him. He could find a gear that other simply didn't have, as they say.

Baur, of course, landed on the cover of Sports Illustrated - one of the very few 1-AA players ever to do so.

http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/548/19890904252520frank2525.jpg



A decade later, also in SI, Baur reminisced:


As Frank Baur looks back on the year he went from All-America quarterback to just a name on the waiver wire, he can find some solace in what he thought was the worst day of his life. Baur vividly remembers the morning in August 1990 when, as an undrafted rookie quarterback in the New York Giants' training camp, he was summoned to coach Bill Parcells's office. "Frank, you have the size, strength and ability," Parcells told Baur. "All you need is some experience, and behind Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler, you won't get it here."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1016573/index.htm

[Franks Tanks]

I am interested as to who LFN tabs as the first team QB. There are at least 4-5 guys who can make a very strong case as the best PL QB ever.

Vena, Stanbaugh, Randolph, and Baur are probably the top 4, but the older Cross guys may also make an apperance.

[LUHawker]

Really-- 3 Lafayette players is overcompensating? We have Blake Costanzo, one of only 3 PL players currently in the NFL. Andy Romans who was two time PL defensive player of the year, and the only person to ever achieve that honor from what I can tell. Lastly B.J Gallis was an absolute beast and played in the CFL for several years.

It was a general comment, even if spurred by the list. You'll note that I stated that it was still a very good list. Don't be so sensitive.

Still, I think LFN goes out of his way, in general, to avoid appearing biased, which I think, in some circumstances leads him to extoll the pussy-cats at the expense of the Mountaineer Hawks.

[RichH2]

Minor quibbles aside a fair list. Probably could add a bunch more with no dilution of quality. Looking forward to O picks. I would bet a bit more contentious a response.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I would have gone with Martucci over Morgan and i think Bubba Young deserved serious consideration. He was a Buchanan finalist in 2000 after posting a ridiculous year. Hartwell from WIU got it but Young out did him in Macomb.

Glad to see Byron make your list. He might be the most forgotten truly great PL player of the last 15 years. In addition to his stellar DB play, I believe he led the country in KR's one year and finished in the top 5 the next. I really thought he had a shot at the NFL given his size and speed.

[TheValleyRaider]

I am interested as to who LFN tabs as the first team QB. There are at least 4-5 guys who can make a very strong case as the best PL QB ever.

I have to admit, I'm most looking forward to seeing who he takes as top RB. Or rather, which Colgate RB he takes and why ;)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I have to admit, I'm most looking forward to seeing who he takes as top RB. Or rather, which Colgate RB he takes and why ;)

My guess is, there will be two QB and RB slots. Assuming Lockbaum is listed as a RB he'll be one of the two. If that does indeed happen the likely question is which Colgate RB fills out the next slot. Granted, i think Marsh and Abdullah make strong claims.

[TheValleyRaider]

My guess is, there will be two QB and RB slots. Assuming Lockbaum is listed as a RB he'll be one of the two. If that does indeed happen the likely question is which Colgate RB fills out the next slot. Granted, i think Marsh and Abdullah make strong claims.

Well, obviously LFN is doing this in his own way, but the PL's release on the team (http://www.patriotleague.org/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/071211aaa.html) says this about the team:

The highlight will come on July 25 when the Patriot League announces its 25th Anniversary Team, which was voted on by the seven football schools during the past month. The squad will consist of 26 players with the following breakdown of representation at each position: (1) QB, (2) RB, (2) WR, (1) TE, (5) OL, (1) PK and (1) all-purpose on offense, and (4) DL, (4) LB, (4) DB and (1) P on defense.

Would it shock anyone to see the "all-purpose on offense" slot given to Lockbaum, thus opening up the other spots?

[Franks Tanks]

All purpose offense seems to have been made for Gordie.

If you are picking 2 RB's I would go with Branch and Marsh. Gamble may have been the most physically gifted of all, but I believe his numbers have been surpassed. Abdullah, Eachus, and Lemon are also strong canidates.

[Bogus Megapardus]

. . . 25th Anniversary Team, which was voted on by the seven football schools during the past month . . .

Hmmm . . . counting whom, now?

[RichH2]

Owl,

Nice choices. Loved Bubba and for one yr he was among the best I've ever seen. A lethal fireplug. Given the competition when compared over career Bubba does not edge anyone out.

[Sader87]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/07/25th-anniversary-all-patriot-team-part.html#more

Here are my picks for the 25th anniversary team. I think Lafayette fans will think the list more than fair. Part One - Defense, and (as an added bonus), punter.

No HC players from 1986-1991 on the DL or at LB....either starting or on the bubble?.....hmmmm

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/07/25th-anniversary-all-patriot-team-part_22.html

Finishing up my 25th Anniversary team with the offense. And it kills me, some of the Lehigh players I'm leaving off the list.

(I'm going to take a wild stab and say Sader87 will approve of my picks. xlolx )

[LUHawker]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/07/25th-anniversary-all-patriot-team-part_22.html

Finishing up my 25th Anniversary team with the offense. And it kills me, some of the Lehigh players I'm leaving off the list.

(I'm going to take a wild stab and say Sader87 will approve of my picks. xlolx )

Good list LFN, but I think I will reiterate my earlier comment in this thread: Me thinks you over-compensate to avoid the appearance of bias.

I think you can justify Randolph over Stambaugh based on stats, but defining his selection over Phil because Stambaugh was part of better teams makes no sense. As the unofficial, and most times, official leader of the team, a team is often a reflection of its leader. Stambaugh led Lehigh to an incredible run, with playoff victories and dominating the PL. Maybe part of the reason that Randolph had such great numbers is because his teams needed him to carry them and so he had more yardage opps. This is nothing against Randolph as he was nothing short of exceptional. But, Randolph only won the PL title once, only got to the playoffs once and had no playoff victories. I don't recall his OOC record, but Phil dominated in and out of the PL.

By not picking Phil, I think you confirm my opinion that you have an anti-homer bias when you write these PL wide articles.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Good list LFN, but I think I will reiterate my earlier comment in this thread: Me thinks you over-compensate to avoid the appearance of bias.

I think you can justify Randolph over Stambaugh based on stats, but defining his selection over Phil because Stambaugh was part of better teams makes no sense. As the unofficial, and most times, official leader of the team, a team is often a reflection of its leader. Stambaugh led Lehigh to an incredible run, with playoff victories and dominating the PL. Maybe part of the reason that Randolph had such great numbers is because his teams needed him to carry them and so he had more yardage opps. This is nothing against Randolph as he was nothing short of exceptional. But, Randolph only won the PL title once, only got to the playoffs once and had no playoff victories. I don't recall his OOC record, but Phil dominated in and out of the PL.

By not picking Phil, I think you confirm my opinion that you have an anti-homer bias when you write these PL wide articles.

What you say is eminently fair. I found myself wishing that there could be 2 QB slots, so both Randolph and Stambaugh could be chosen. But I stand by my pick. Randolph was a three-time Offensive POY, and WAS that offense. It doesn't take away from Phil's great performance for the Brown and White - nor Ryan Vena's, for that matter - but I just felt that Randolph was the right guy.

I had a similar problem at RB/AB. I really wanted Abdullah on the team - IMO, a more dominating all-purpose back than Branch - but how do you leave off a Payton award winner, and a guy that actually had a better postseason record to boot?

[RichH2]

O list as good as any. Could certainly add an entire 2nd squad as good as the 1st

[Lehigh Football Nation]

O list as good as any. Could certainly add an entire 2nd squad as good as the 1st

That's for sure. You put Abdullah and Rich Lemon on the second team - boy, I'd be happy with those two in my backfield, too.

[Sader87]

I think Ciaccio was a little better overall than Randolph actually...and I'm not being facetious.

A near impossible task to do this (and an even more impossible task to please everyone)....my quibble would be that the HC teams of '86-'91 are under-represented (no linemen on either side of the ball, no specialty players besides Gordie etc.)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I think Ciaccio was a little better overall than Randolph actually...and I'm not being facetious.

A near impossible task to do this (and an even more impossible task to please everyone)....my quibble would be that the HC teams of '86-'91 are under-represented (no linemen on either side of the ball, no specialty players besides Gordie etc.)

I think Ciaccio was better too. The top 3 QB's imo are, in no particular order, Stambaugh, Vena and Ciaccio.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That's for sure. You put Abdullah and Rich Lemon on the second team - boy, I'd be happy with those two in my backfield, too.

There's 5 guys that you could pick and not be wrong imo. Gamble, Branch, Marsh, Abdullah and Lemon are pretty much even. Guys like Scott, Eachus, Jean, Costello were great but not at the level of those five guys imo.

[Go...gate]

I think Ciaccio was a little better overall than Randolph actually...and I'm not being facetious.

A near impossible task to do this (and an even more impossible task to please everyone)....my quibble would be that the HC teams of '86-'91 are under-represented (no linemen on either side of the ball, no specialty players besides Gordie etc.)

Agree with my HC colleague. Also, I think you could have put Stambaugh on the top QB list. He was a terrific football player and leader.

Having said that, it is a fine list! Many thanks!

I was happy to see Greg Manusky on Defense (IMO, one of Colgate's all-time great players) and I think you did the proper thing with Gamble and Branch. Both were wonderful players.

[RichH2]

Forgot about Ciacco, I would have to put him with Vena and Phil , Dom great stat guy and surely 1 of the best over the 25 yrs, but better than the other 3 . Not quite.

[Bogus Megapardus]

There's little to argue with on the offensive side, LFN. It's remarkable, though, how many great athletes have played PL football in past 25 years.

Ask yourselves this - which quarterback (Randolph, Stambaugh, Baur, Vena, Ciaccio) would perform best leading an actual all-star team against, say, a team of Ivy all-stars? On the spot - just one game - who would you want in there in the clutch?

[colorless raider]

Agree with my HC colleague. Also, I think you could have put Stambaugh on the top QB list. He was a terrific football player and leader.

Having said that, it is a fine list! Many thanks!

I was happy to see Greg Manusky on Defense (IMO, one of Colgate's all-time great players) and I think you did the proper thing with Gamble and Branch. Both were wonderful players.

If Eachus has a great year I would put him even with Branch since Branch had a better supporting cast with a potent passing attack.

[DFW HOYA]

"Colgate and Lehigh, the two winningest programs in Patriot League history, combined to make up half of the 26-man roster as the Raiders led the way with seven selections and the Mountain Hawks recorded six. Bucknell, Fordham, Holy Cross and Lafayette each placed three players on the team, while Towson had the remaining selection."

Georgetown: zero. Thanks again to everyone at the Patriot League!

http://www.patriotleague.org/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/072511aaj.html

[crusader11]

Georgetown: zero. Thanks again to everyone at the Patriot League!


This isn't little league baseball where everyone gets a trophy just for signing up and playing.

[DFW HOYA]

This isn't little league baseball where everyone gets a trophy just for signing up and playing.

On second thought, maybe the PL is a somewhat "little league" with actions like this.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Not surprised to see Vena take the QB spot, he would have been my pick.

I'm not sure about Matt Cohen making it as a LB. He had a very, very good career but i can think of some other guys i would list over him.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I dunno, my biggest surprise is A.J. Kizekai winning the all-purpose back spot. Granted, he was quite the weapon, but by putting Gordie as a RB you then squeeze out Jamaal Branch, who is a Top 5 all-time FCS rushing leader and a Payton Award winner!

I didn't officially vote in this, but I would have voted for Ononibaku in my team.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

On second thought, maybe the PL is a somewhat "little league" with actions like this.

Ok, who deserved to be on their from Georgetown? All you do is whine about the PL which i can't understand. Georgetown has been a terrible football program the last decade. They simply have not produced many talented players. That's a you problem, not a league problem. Should Georgetown have a player on the list because of sympathy?

[DFW HOYA]

Ok, who deserved to be on their from Georgetown? All you do is whine about the PL which i can't understand. Georgetown has been a terrible football program the last decade. They simply have not produced many talented players. That's a you problem, not a league problem. Should Georgetown have a player on the list because of sympathy?

There were three reasonable choices for the league to give consideration.

1. Luke McArdle (WR, 2001-03): All PL first team, led nation in all-purpose yards per game as a senior
2. Michael Ononibaku (DL, 2002-05): Two time All-PL first team, 2nd team All-America, led PL in sacks and ranked nationally in TFL's for 2005
3. Alex Buzbee (DL, 2003-06): All PL First team, ranked in PL for sacks, two years with Washington Redskins, now playing in Toronto (CFL).

Are any a lock? No. But for a league to select a team using subjective standards and ignore one of the seven schools isn't an accident, any more that that certain schools had six selections and some had three. Lots of politics in the picks...and yet there's a place for Towson?

Let's call this exactly what it is--an insult to a member school which has played by the rules, and one which could come back to damage a future relationship with the league down the road.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There were three reasonable choices for the league to give consideration.

1. Luke McArdle (WR, 2001-03): All PL first team, led nation in all-purpose yards per game as a senior
2. Michael Ononibaku (DL, 2002-05): Two time All-PL first team, 2nd team All-America, led PL in sacks and ranked nationally in TFL's for 2005
3. Alex Buzbee (DL, 2003-06): All PL First team, ranked in PL for sacks, two years with Washington Redskins, now playing in Toronto (CFL).

McArdle is a worthy consideration, but there was such a logjam at that position it would have been difficult to pick him over some of the names that were left off. (Personally, I think they could have included more slots at WR - two seems like too few.) I picked Ononibaku because teams knew he was the heart and soul of their defense yet he'd still find a way to get stats and keep his team in games - and this despite the fact that the offense on his teams were not very good.

I could see Buzbee, too, on the list.

[Go...gate]

There were three reasonable choices for the league to give consideration.

1. Luke McArdle (WR, 2001-03): All PL first team, led nation in all-purpose yards per game as a senior
2. Michael Ononibaku (DL, 2002-05): Two time All-PL first team, 2nd team All-America, led PL in sacks and ranked nationally in TFL's for 2005
3. Alex Buzbee (DL, 2003-06): All PL First team, ranked in PL for sacks, two years with Washington Redskins, now playing in Toronto (CFL).

Are any a lock? No. But for a league to select a team using subjective standards and ignore one of the seven schools isn't an accident, any more that that certain schools had six selections and some had three. Lots of politics in the picks...and yet there's a place for Towson?

Let's call this exactly what it is--an insult to a member school which has played by the rules, and one which could come back to damage a future relationship with the league down the road.

FWIW, I agree with you, DFW. All-Time teams should also be a nod to history. I also thought Davidson should have been represented by Horace Hamm.

[crusader11]

Distribute the wealth so all are happy and get a piece of the pie...that what you are saying?

Maybe all of the players that were selected to the anniversary team were simply better than the Georgetown players. Is that a possibility?

Just because Georgetown is a member and plays by the rules does not mean the Patriot League is supposed to give them handouts.

Is it fair to an individual player for him to be left off the team simply because Georgetown needed at least one representative? Come on DFW.

[DFW HOYA]

Maybe all of the players that were selected to the anniversary team were simply better than the Georgetown players. Is that a possibility?

Maybe all of the starters from the HC teams of 1986-87 were better than anything in the past 25 years at Bucknell or Fordham, yet the league didn't exactly fill the roster with Crusaders, did they?

These "lists" are even more political than all-conference picks, because it's a sign of the balance to which the league intends to impart upon its public image: Colgate and Lehigh are "best" (never mind Gordie & Co., because they had scholarships), while Bucknell, HC, Laf, and Fordham (just by sheer happenstance) had the same number of selections, i.e,. no one wants to offend Bucknell or Fordham by giving it less than everyone else.

Is it fair to an individual player for him to be left off the team simply because Georgetown needed at least one representative? These lists are never about fairness, they're about perceptions. It's why the MLB All-Star Game isn't 20 Yankees and Red Sox and five from everywhere else.

Leaving an active member off a league-wide list shows a visible lack of respect for one of its own member schools. Not a smart move.

[crusader11]

I see where you are coming from, DFW. I guess the purist in me was hoping an exercise like this would be solely on the numbers and performance on the field. Even still, I maintain that if Georgetown's players over the last 25 years did not match up with those currently on the anniversary team, then they shouldn't be on there.

[Sader87]

I agree with DFW's overall thesis here i.e. the PL is basically about keeping the "core 4" of LU, LC, CU and BU happy/appeased. The rest of us are basically red-headed step-children in their eyes.

[Bogus Megapardus]

A limiting factor:

"Players qualified for the ballot by earning three-time All-Patriot League status; a first, second or third-team All-America honor from the four major awarding organizations; or a Patriot League Player, Offensive Player or Defensive Player of the Year award."

It appears that many, many otherwise-deserving players did not "qualify" and thus were not on the ballot.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There were three reasonable choices for the league to give consideration.

1. Luke McArdle (WR, 2001-03): All PL first team, led nation in all-purpose yards per game as a senior
2. Michael Ononibaku (DL, 2002-05): Two time All-PL first team, 2nd team All-America, led PL in sacks and ranked nationally in TFL's for 2005
3. Alex Buzbee (DL, 2003-06): All PL First team, ranked in PL for sacks, two years with Washington Redskins, now playing in Toronto (CFL).

Are any a lock? No. But for a league to select a team using subjective standards and ignore one of the seven schools isn't an accident, any more that that certain schools had six selections and some had three. Lots of politics in the picks...and yet there's a place for Towson?

Let's call this exactly what it is--an insult to a member school which has played by the rules, and one which could come back to damage a future relationship with the league down the road.

Andrew Hollingsworth was simply a better player than Ononibaku and Buzbee during his time at Towson. In fact Hollingsworth was one of about 5 players that were no brainers to make the list.

Sory but the Georgetown guys simply don't measure up. That's a Georgetown problem, not a league problem. How many Temple guys would make the BE 20th anniversary list? Perhaps Dan Klecko? Otherwise, likely no one, Temple simply didn't have the players that everyone else did.

I love how you constantly bash the league for Georgetown's struggles. It's a you problem!

[TheValleyRaider]

In this case, I have to agree with DFW, Georgetown should have had a representative. Too much political goes into this kind of thing to omit a current member school. Even if this was more accidental (which is my suspecion, as I'm not sure there's enough collective leadership and vision for there to be a real plan), the optics of it are still bad

Players are always going to be over-looked on teams like this, it's just the nature of the beast. While we probably shouldn't be looking at players per school, plenty of people do, and it's not as if the League has 12 schools to squeeze on to one team. 7 schools (8 if you must include Hollingsworth, which seems like the right move) is easily small enough to justify a selection from each team, especially since someone like Ononibaku would hardly be pure tokenism

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

In this case, I have to agree with DFW, Georgetown should have had a representative. Too much political goes into this kind of thing to omit a current member school. Even if this was more accidental (which is my suspecion, as I'm not sure there's enough collective leadership and vision for there to be a real plan), the optics of it are still bad

Players are always going to be over-looked on teams like this, it's just the nature of the beast. While we probably shouldn't be looking at players per school, plenty of people do, and it's not as if the League has 12 schools to squeeze on to one team. 7 schools (8 if you must include Hollingsworth, which seems like the right move) is easily small enough to justify a selection from each team, especially since someone like Ononibaku would hardly be pure tokenism

So you think someone should on the list even if there's others more deserving? I'm sorry but i can't go along with that.

Who from Georgetown would you place on the list and who would you remove?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Patriot League Football 25th Anniversary Team was voted on by each of the seven current football member schools, with each institution getting one vote and ineligible to select their own players.

I'm sure at least one Georgetown player was on the ballot, so anyone's beef with how the team was selected should go to the reps from the schools in question. This wasn't one person in the office selecting the team.

[Sader87]

Ciaccio was better than Vena for one....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Ciaccio was better than Vena for one....

Vena, Stambaugh and Ciaccio were the 3 best QB's imo, you couldn't go wrong with any of them. I like Vena because he led the Raiders to 4 straight winning seasons and 3 straight playoff appearance after the Raiders were in the dumps. Vena was not only the QB but the #1 runner at the time. The Raiders had some solid RB's but not at the level of the last 10 years. He seemed to be a great leader that somewhat willed his team against more talented opponents. He was also pretty cocky which worked to his advantage.

[Franks Tanks]

Ciaccio was better than Vena for one....

Guys like Ciaccio and Baur may have had the best physical tools of any PL QB. However Ciaccio had so much talent around him he didn't have to carry his team. I assume Vena gets the nod for doing "more with less" (although he certainly had plenty of talent around him as well).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Guys like Ciaccio and Baur may have had the best physical tools of any PL QB. However Ciaccio had so much talent around him he didn't have to carry his team. I assume Vena gets the nod for doing "more with less" (although he certainly had plenty of talent around him as well).

If THAT's the criteria, Randolph should have won, hands-down.

[Sader87]

Ciaccio didn't really have the talent around him that Jeff Wiley had. He was in the last HC scholarship class and the talent around him dwindled by the year.

[TheValleyRaider]

So you think someone should on the list even if there's others more deserving? I'm sorry but i can't go along with that.

Who from Georgetown would you place on the list and who would you remove?

Deserving is very much in the eye of the voter. Truly, if this list were about "deserving," you'd probably see players from fewer teams and clustered in eras rather than relatively spread out through the League's whole existence. If it was strictly about the best players at their respective positions, this team would almost certainly be all Colgate/Lehigh/Holy Cross (pre-1991, mostly) with a smattering of players like Hollingsworth whose numbers are simply too overwhelming to avoid

But that's not how these teams get chosen, certainly not in a small league with a relatively short history. And even though I am sure the committee did their level best to be as inclusive as possible while selecting the best players, the complete exclusion of a current League member who has a decade worth of time in the League (not insignificant on a 25th Anniversary team), justified or not, looks bad

If there was going to be a Georgetown player, Ononibaku seems like the obvious choice, as he had an All-American selection to his credit. Who do you take off? Based on the list, probably Adams, who's overall resume looks less impressive than Martucci or Vincent

[andy7171]

...and yet there's a place for Towson?


So you are saying the most dominant defensive end in PL history should be ignored just because his school chose to upgrade the program? Gimme a break.

[DFW HOYA]

So you are saying the most dominant defensive end in PL history should be ignored just because his school chose to upgrade the program? Gimme a break.

Not at all, but a conference can choose which schools to include and whether schools are eligible for all-conference awards....scholarship Holy Cross was eligible for awards, scholarship Fordham is not. It's their discretion, which is the central argument here. The PL's discretion was to include Towson, not to include Georgetown, and not to include many other deserving players after 2000 to focus on the 1980's and 1990's instead when the PL had perhaps a better reputation.

How the Colgate 2003 team gets no recognition may be more astounding than leaving Georgetown off the list.

[andy7171]

Not at all, but a conference can choose which schools to include and whether schools are eligible for all-conference awards....scholarship Holy Cross was eligible for awards, scholarship Fordham is not. It's their discretion, which is the central argument here. The PL's discretion was to include Towson, not to include Georgetown, and not to include many other deserving players after 2000 to focus on the 1980's and 1990's instead when the PL had perhaps a better reputation.

How the Colgate 2003 team gets no recognition may be more astounding than leaving Georgetown off the list.

I understand your point, I was taking exception to you singling out Towson. Had we placed other players, I would understand the questioning of the choices. But Hollingsworth resume speaks for itself and omission of him from this team would have raised several eyebrows.

BTW, in case no one remembers.
'00 PL Player of the Year
'00 PL Defensive POTY
'00 1st team All-American
2 time 1st team All-PL

43 career sacks, 18 in '00 (which I believe both are still tops in PL history, and by a long shot)
He was also an All-Academic seleection too. I throw that in for you PL types. :)

[Franks Tanks]

I understand your point, I was taking exception to you singling out Towson. Had we placed other players, I would understand the questioning of the choices. But Hollingsworth resume speaks for itself and omission of him from this team would have raised several eyebrows.

BTW, in case no one remembers.
'00 PL Player of the Year
'00 PL Defensive POTY
'00 1st team All-American
2 time 1st team All-PL

43 career sacks, 18 in '00 (which I believe both are still tops in PL history, and by a long shot)
He was also an All-Academic seleection too. I throw that in for you PL types. :)

He was a freakin monster-- no doubt about it.

I think I may have given up one of his sacks in 00. Actually I am almost certain I did!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think I may have given up one of his sacks in 00. Actually I am almost certain I did!

No soup for you, Tanks.

[andy7171]

He was a freakin monster-- no doubt about it.

I think I may have given up one of his sacks in 00. Actually I am almost certain I did!

I got pwned by a DT from Liberty in my first start my soph. year down there in '91. He was a RS senior and without proof, on the juice big time. #78 when they had uniforms that looked exactly like the Bills. We referred to him as Bruce Smith the entire game. F'er. :( Sebastian something. Maybe one of the Flamers remember WHo who heWwas. Had a stint in the NFL too.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I got pwned by a DT from Liberty in my first start my soph. year down there in '91.

Probably Sebastian Barrie. Had time as a DT with the Packers, Cardinals and Chargers.

[Sader87]

There are many players on the PL 25th Anniversary team that would not have started on the Holy Cross 1987 team....just sayin'.

[Go...gate]

There are many players on the PL 25th Anniversary team that would not have started on the Holy Cross 1987 team....just sayin'.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There are many players on the PL 25th Anniversary team that would not have started on the Holy Cross 1987 team....just sayin'.

That's right, and I think I remember something about how Holy Cross should have been in the Big East. xrolleyesx

[Sader87]

That's right, and I think I remember something about how Holy Cross should have been in the Big East. xrolleyesx

In basketaball...we turned it down (God help us)...yes, we had schollies in 1987 but there has been no team since in the PL that would come anywhere close to how good that team was.

[Go...gate]

That's right, and I think I remember something about how Holy Cross should have been in the Big East. xrolleyesx

I don't want to sound as if the late 1980's PL was hands down better than later PL teams. But the late 1980's HC teams were flat-out awesome, and LC, LU, BU, FU and CU's squads also had some terrific players in the early PL era - Gamble, Khalife and Manusky at Colgate, Blazejewski at Fordham, Baur at HC and many others.

[Go...gate]

In basketaball...we turned it down (God help us)...yes, we had schollies in 1987 but there has been no team since in the PL that would come anywhere close to how good that team was.

There are people in South Orange, NJ (Seton Hall) that say Novenas about that annually. Your decision not to join opened the door for SHU and it fostered a renaissance of their BB program, even though they have been down a bit recently. Seton Hall also believes that membership in the Big East, and the expsoure SHU received, gave their fundraising and endowment a badly needed shot in the arm.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Seton Hall >>> Holy Cross

[Franks Tanks]

I don't want to sound as if the late 1980's PL was hands down better than later PL teams. But the late 1980's HC teams were flat-out awesome, and LC, LU, BU, FU and CU's squads also had some terrific players in the early PL era - Gamble, Khalife and Manusky at Colgate, Blazejewski at Fordham, Baur at HC and many others.

Despite not playing in the playoffs the PL was far more respected in the 80's. Holy Cross of course had several top 10 finishes, and Lehigh, Colgate, and Lafayette were all ranked in the top 10 at least once in the 80's according to college football data warehouse (some pre-PL).

[Bogus Megapardus]

I keep forgetting that PL rules didn't even allow us to participate in the playoffs in the 80s and early 90s.

[DFW HOYA]

There are people in South Orange, NJ (Seton Hall) that say Novenas about that annually. Your decision not to join opened the door for SHU and it fostered a renaissance of their BB program, even though they have been down a bit recently. Seton Hall also believes that membership in the Big East, and the expsoure SHU received, gave their fundraising and endowment a badly needed shot in the arm.

Seton Hall was not a replacement for Holy Cross but for Rutgers, which also turned down the Big East in 1979. Were it not for Rutgers' misstep, the Hall would be a MAAC school still playing games in Walsh Gym. I also maintain that had (in a non John Brooks scenario) HC accepted the Big East offer and helped form the football league, that HC would be a competitive Big East program--an upgraded 35,000 seat Fitton Field, a bowl game every few years, and considerable regional interest in games such as HC-BC, HC-UConn, and HC-Syracuse. HC would be the Big East's Wake Forest--small enough not to dominate, but capable of championships over the years.

But assuming HC still turned down the Big East, where would the PL be today if schools like Holy Cross were allowed to keep scholarships in the 1980's, presumably under an Ivy Index?

[crusader11]

I also maintain that had (in a non John Brooks scenario) HC accepted the Big East offer and helped form the football league, that HC would be a competitive Big East program--an upgraded 35,000 seat Fitton Field, a bowl game every few years, and considerable regional interest in games such as HC-BC, HC-UConn, and HC-Syracuse. HC would be the Big East's Wake Forest--small enough not to dominate, but capable of championships over the years.


Sigh...what could have been.

[colorless raider]

and to think many still laud Father Brooks.

[Go...gate]

Seton Hall was not a replacement for Holy Cross but for Rutgers, which also turned down the Big East in 1979. Were it not for Rutgers' misstep, the Hall would be a MAAC school still playing games in Walsh Gym. I also maintain that had (in a non John Brooks scenario) HC accepted the Big East offer and helped form the football league, that HC would be a competitive Big East program--an upgraded 35,000 seat Fitton Field, a bowl game every few years, and considerable regional interest in games such as HC-BC, HC-UConn, and HC-Syracuse. HC would be the Big East's Wake Forest--small enough not to dominate, but capable of championships over the years.

But assuming HC still turned down the Big East, where would the PL be today if schools like Holy Cross were allowed to keep scholarships in the 1980's, presumably under an Ivy Index?

Not sure I exactly agree with this - I knew Fred Gruninger, the Rutgers AD at the time and through most of the 1980's, and he always claimed that Seton Hall came in for Holy Cross and that, while Rutgers (at that time two years off an 11-0, #16 ranked undefeated season in Football and a 29-2 Final Four season in Basketball) did reject the Big East in favor of the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League ("Eastern 8"), a major reason was that in the early days of the Eastern 8, there was significant discussion (led by Joe Paterno) about turning the Eastern 8 into an all-sports conference with Maryland, PSU, RU, Pitt, Temple, UConn and BC the initial football members. However, there were so many scenarios flying around in those days - as there were leading up to the formation of the Ivy League - who the heck knows. I do recall it was a surprise that HC did not join the BE and Seton Hall, whose BB program was on life support, was invited.

[Go...gate]

I keep forgetting that PL rules didn't even allow us to participate in the playoffs in the 80s and early 90s.

And we had to fight pretty hard to get the bid, both from our own Presidents and then from the NCAA.

[RichH2]

I was around for the battle to go to the playoffs. it was easier ,at least more straight forward, dealing with NCAA committee than with the Presidents. Be thankful for 2 very strong Presidents who forced the issue. Unfortunately we do not seem to have an Alpha dog to push merit aid.

[Sader87]

and to think many still laud Father Brooks.

Fr Brooks did a tremendous job overall during his tenure as college president of HC, unfortunately his one "blind spot" was his distaste for high level (i.e. major college and all that that entails) athletics.

[crusader11]

and to think many still laud Father Brooks.

He is, far and way, the best president Holy Cross has ever had. Like 87 said, his one mishap with passing on the Big East. But, he and Father Miller did wonders for raising money and increasing Holy Cross' endowment. The school was pretty unstable in terms of financial means prior to Brooks' tenure.

[DFW HOYA]

Not sure I exactly agree with this - I knew Fred Gruninger, the Rutgers AD at the time and through most of the 1980's, and he always claimed that Seton Hall came in for Holy Cross and that, while Rutgers (at that time two years off an 11-0, #16 ranked undefeated season in Football and a 29-2 Final Four season in Basketball) did reject the Big East in favor of the Eastern Collegiate Basketball League ("Eastern 8"), a major reason was that in the early days of the Eastern 8, there was significant discussion (led by Joe Paterno) about turning the Eastern 8 into an all-sports conference with Maryland, PSU, RU, Pitt, Temple, UConn and BC the initial football members. However, there were so many scenarios flying around in those days - as there were leading up to the formation of the Ivy League - who the heck knows. I do recall it was a surprise that HC did not join the BE and Seton Hall, whose BB program was on life support, was invited.

There are mixed citations about Holy Cross vs. BC--Providence Journal writer Bill Reynolds (who wore a 1989 history on the league) claimed BC came in after Holy Cross declined, while Syracuse AD Jake Crouthamel wrote it was the other way around. Crouthamel also claimed Seton hall was a replacement for Rutgers, as Gruninger did not see the need for leaving the E8. The Paterno discussions were a few years away, largely after the Big East could not get the six votes to add Penn State in 1982 (the vote was 5-3).

Gruninger's decision set back the course of RU basketball for a generation and while not the most awkward move in conference matters (Tulane's resignation from the SEC in 1964 is up there) it certainly was a game changer.

My take is that Gavitt would have liked four New England schools to anchor the conference and invited UConn, BC, and HC to each be a part of it. Owing to the Law of Unintended Consequences, UConn-PC is not a major Big East rivalry, BC basketball is a poor fit in the ACC, and, most important to this argument, Holy Cross' potential to return to the national stage never took place. In some sense, I think that Rev. Brooks preferred it that way.