PPL Park Expansion by Union Key to Villanova FBS Hopes?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/soccer/20110607_Phila__Union_envisages_expanding_stadium_ for_MLS_games.html


When PPL Park was being built, Philadelphia Union fans imagined what it could become: a grand soccer locus that routinely hosted large crowds.

That came to be.

Now fans may need to envision the year-old stadium in a new way: bigger.

Union officials are developing long-term plans to expand the arena, contemplating a three-phase process, the first to increase seating from 18,500 to 20,000.

If all goes well, that construction could start in 2014, according to team chief executive officer Nick Sakiewicz.

The second phase, dependent on numerous factors, including the economy, would bring seating to 27,000, and the third to about 30,000.

That would represent an overall 62 percent increase in capacity. New decks would rise over the sideline stands and above the east sections collectively known as the River End.

In its second Major League Soccer season, the Union are drawing sellout or near-sellout crowds to the Chester City waterfront, where PPL Park stands just south of the Commodore Barry Bridge. Last week, the team sold the remainder of the 13,000 season tickets allocated for this season and started a waiting list.

The article doesn't mention Villanova or their FBS ambitions, but I feel this announcement of expansion plans makes a very large difference with the Villanova bid.

[GannonFan]

If this does say anything about nova's plans to move up and to use PPL park, it pretty much says that there's almost no chance of using PPL. The article talks about maybe starting expansion in 2014 - and even then, it's only to go from 18.5k (current capacity) to 20k. And that's the easy expansion since it doesn't block the river view (there'll be plenty of outcry if they ever block that view). nova wants to be in the Big East in 2014 or 2015 - there's no way they are going there with a 20k PPL Park as the home venue. Even look at the attendance - the Union are actually below last year's average attendance right now (18,101 this year versus 19,254 last year) - sure the summer months might help a little, but they are clearly concerned about over expanding the stadium ala the Red Bulls, who even at 25k feel they have too much seating (and that's in an even more rabid soccer area and bigger population area in North Jersey). And really, parking is still a huge, huge concern down there. You can't get in or out and there's not enough secured parking. And that's with the stadium being 18.5k.

If this says anything about nova's future, it's that nova's probably forced to look at Franklin Field as their only alternative - the Linc is a no-go from the start and PPL, from this article, looks to be too small for far too long.

[superman7515]

I agree. Cincinnati is currently in plans to add 15,000 seats to Nippert which would take them from 35,000 to 50,000 because the Big East has told them that the current stadium isn't sufficient, with West Virginia, Rutgers, and Pitt railing against small stadiums hurting sales. If 35,000 isn't good enough today, then 18,500 that's expandable to 30,000 in 15-20 years is certainly not even in the realm of possibility. West Virginia AD Oliver Luck has been the most publicly outspoken in being opposed to Villanova and PPL Park.

[henfan]

The simple answer to the question posed in this thread is no.

[DFW HOYA]

PPL is a nonstarter among the BE I-A schools. Franklin Field and/or Citizens Bank Park would be a better solution until the Linc negotiations open up after Temple's exclusive deal runs out in 2017.

[superman7515]

The problem there is that Temple get's first crack at renewing due to the Linc being built with public funds. I don't think they'll give it up.

[DFW HOYA]

As long as the Linc is natural turf, Temple can make the argument that only one college team is possible.

If the Eagles pushed for FieldTurf, it opens up the door to more revenue from other college teams.

[polsongrizz]

What I find amusing after all the huffing and puffing after the NC was moved to a soccer stadium is they are depending on soccer to save them.lol

[HailSzczur]

In my opinion this really puts the nail in the coffin for Nova BCS football, while some think it helps.
Construction would not begin until 2014, I would presume in the winter of 2014 after the Union finish in about October? The capacity won't be up to 30,000 if and when the 3rd stage of expansion is finished, who knows how many years down the line that will be. We wont hit 30,000 seats there for awhile, and even then it still won't be enough for the BE

[DFW HOYA]

? The capacity won't be up to 30,000 if and when the 3rd stage of expansion is finished, who knows how many years down the line that will be. We wont hit 30,000 seats there for awhile, and even then it still won't be enough for the BE

Agreed. One of the reasons the BE is pushing hard for Nippert Stadium (Cincinnati) to be upgraded to 45k is to establish a baseline of 45,000 seats for all schools (TCU is also at 45K). The BE then can look at PPL and say thanks, but no thanks.

[bluehenbillk]

The Union would be out of their minds to build out PPL Park to 30k. The demand doesn't exist here. The Union are a novelty. Show me. A market east of the Mississippi that has done well over time...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Union would be out of their minds to build out PPL Park to 30k. The demand doesn't exist here. The Union are a novelty. Show me. A market east of the Mississippi that has done well over time...

They themselves have said that 18,000 is too small for MLS soccer alone, and have a waitlist. How can you say demand does not exist here?

Having said that, the Union have a near-ideal situation here in Philly. In the summer, when the Man U's and Real Madrid's go on tour, the Linc sits there just waiting to be used for that purpose, not to mention bonuses like Gold Cups and USMNT friendlies. The Union doesn't need a gigantic stadium the way that UConn basketball doesn't need to upgrade Gampel Pavillion. The bigger games just go to Hartford. In that sense, there really isn't a need for 30K at PPL unless Villanova is coming to play.

Frankly, does anyone here truly believe if the only thing preventing the Big East to host a title game is a Villanova team in FBS, somehow, the opposition will melt away and everyone will make this work? In order to grub that money, a 30,000 venue at PPL with an option for an occasional big game at Citizens Bank Park (or, if that doesn't work, Franklin Field) will almost certainly be enough. And in time, the Linc might even open up, too. They might not do it if Nova is the 10th or 11th team in the Big East, but they will absolutely bite the bullet if they're the 12th team.

[JMUDuke2002]

Frankly, does anyone here truly believe if the only thing preventing the Big East to host a title game is a Villanova team in FBS, somehow, the opposition will melt away and everyone will make this work? In order to grub that money, a 30,000 venue at PPL with an option for an occasional big game at Citizens Bank Park (or, if that doesn't work, Franklin Field) will almost certainly be enough. And in time, the Linc might even open up, too. They might not do it if Nova is the 10th or 11th team in the Big East, but they will absolutely bite the bullet if they're the 12th team.

Yeah, it's simple: The football schools split and make even more money because they won't have to pay out to the small BB schools. A breakup of the Big East makes way too much sense. I'm not sure why it hasn't happened. Why add a school like Nova with a small fanbase and no true upside in football just to get a championship game when you could add Central Florida, ECU, Houston...? I never saw this happening and still don't see it happening. If it does, it won't last more than a few years before the original football schools pull the plug on the whole thing. Hell, UMass is a better option than Nova.

[GannonFan]

They themselves have said that 18,000 is too small for MLS soccer alone, and have a waitlist. How can you say demand does not exist here?

Having said that, the Union have a near-ideal situation here in Philly. In the summer, when the Man U's and Real Madrid's go on tour, the Linc sits there just waiting to be used for that purpose, not to mention bonuses like Gold Cups and USMNT friendlies. The Union doesn't need a gigantic stadium the way that UConn basketball doesn't need to upgrade Gampel Pavillion. The bigger games just go to Hartford. In that sense, there really isn't a need for 30K at PPL unless Villanova is coming to play.

Frankly, does anyone here truly believe if the only thing preventing the Big East to host a title game is a Villanova team in FBS, somehow, the opposition will melt away and everyone will make this work? In order to grub that money, a 30,000 venue at PPL with an option for an occasional big game at Citizens Bank Park (or, if that doesn't work, Franklin Field) will almost certainly be enough. And in time, the Linc might even open up, too. They might not do it if Nova is the 10th or 11th team in the Big East, but they will absolutely bite the bullet if they're the 12th team.

Sure the Union said they need to expand - they themselves said, in 5 years from now, they'll need to start to expand another 1,500 seats. However, that's not really a huge number.

BHBK's a bit right - they are still a novelty and there's no way they are going to expand to 30k in the next 5 years, and probably not even the next decade, if ever. They are in year 2, and while season tix sales are up, total attendance is down year on year (they are down 6% from last year). And the Union are in first place in the Eastern Conference this year and they are still down in terms of attendance. Considering that they have a great example 1.5 hours away of how expanding too early can really sap the energy from the whole shebang (i.e. see the Red Bulls, with an even fancier stadium, and multiple big name European players, playing to crowds 2k-3k less than the Union while playing in a stadium that sits 25k) they're not in any hurry to add seats. Again, the article basically has the Union adding seats at the rate of 300 per year. That's not much more than adding a few folding chairs in the concourse.

For the Union to be anywhere close to successful, they need games to be an event and a happening. Playing to a half full stadium, with the River view blocked off by expansion, is not going to be that. PPL just isn't an option for nova.

I think nova does move up eventually, again, I've said that from the start the best option for nova is to move up. They aren't going to survive financially playing FCS football, and probably won't survive playing FBS football, but at least there's a chance at the FBS level that they can mimic what Temple did for so many years and just take their share of the Big East TV money pie every year. But again, do they have a place to play? Franklin Field seems to be the only option (has anyone even checked to see if a football field can fit in Citizen's Bank without having to do a whole Wrigley Field and play offense in one direction thing?) unless the Eagles all of a sudden decide to put in Field Turf and rent the place out, which they've shown no signs of doing.

[GannonFan]

Hell, UMass is a better option than Nova.

I agree with that - Gillette Stadium, no matter how far from Amherst, is a huge, huge asset for UMass and their future football prospects.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

UMass suffers from the problem that they sit squarely in the recruiting area of UConn. Plus, Jim Calhoun hates the place viscerally.

And I agree, PPL will not need to expand to 30,000 for the Union anytime soon. But if there is a plan in place, aided by the Big East, to get it up to 30,000 sooner rather than later, I have a hard time seeing folks say no if it means getting a Big East Championship game.

Here's an even better question. Could the Linc be used for a Big East Championship game in December, after the regular season? Even though Temple plays there in the regular season, the MAC Championship is not played there, so December after Army/Navy it is available...

[DFW HOYA]

Yeah, it's simple: The football schools split and make even more money because they won't have to pay out to the small BB schools.

"Small" BB schools? Did you realize St. John's has more undergrads than Syracuse? Or that DePaul has more than Louisville?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_East_Conference

[Pard4Life]

Franklin Field has no luxury boxes. So there goes that...

I am not sure the Union are a novelty. Philly embraces it's teams, especially winning teams. And, soccer has a presence here. Gold Cup and national team games have been in town and play to near capacity crowds. Other MLS cities like Portland and Seattle pack 'em in for games. NJ is an odd market... take the Devils for instance for many years: best team in the NHL, best goalie, HOF players, and less than capacity each night until the second round of the playoffs. NY/NJ is such a crowded competitive market that it would not be fair to use regular Red Bulls attendance as a basis.

PPL was never suitable from the start due to size, location, and parking. Nobody will attend games aside from major games ie Pitt, WVU.

Citizens Bank Park is off the table because the Phills play into Septemebr and hopefully October in the coming decade. Nova is better off just paying for an expansion to Lehigh's pit Badman Stadium.

Or, just building a 40,000 seat stadium in the parking lot across from campus, establishing some sort of satellite parking lot next to SEPTA and 476, and build more garages. But that's complicated.

[DFW HOYA]

Franklin Field has no luxury boxes. So there goes that...


Boxes are nice to have but they're not the first thing Villanova has to think about. The first thing is capacity.

What they "could" consider is three games in Franklin (Sep-Oct) and the rest at CPB. If Big East teams wanted to play in an 20,000 seat stadium, they could go to Worcester.

[superman7515]

Haven't been home to check the mail, but word on GoHens is that UD season ticket holder's have gotten their away game ticket order forms today and that PPL Park is listed as the venue for this years Battle of the Blue between Delaware & Villanova.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Haven't been home to check the mail, but word on GoHens is that UD season ticket holder's have gotten their away game ticket order forms today and that PPL Park is listed as the venue for this years Battle of the Blue between Delaware & Villanova.

Like the "Colonial Clash", a dry run for FBS?

[GannonFan]

Like the "Colonial Clash", a dry run for FBS?

Nah, I don't think UD is going FBS anytime soon, and they certainly wouldn't do it in a stadium that far away from campus, in Chester, that is actually smaller than the stadium they already play in. If UD goes FBS, they're staying in Newark - count on it. :)

[bluehenbillk]

"The Battle fo da Hood". I can hear Brent Mussburger now - "you're looking live at Chester, PA". Looking forward to seeing an invasion of Blue Hens fans to a location that actually closer than going to that craphole on the Main Line. At least there will be sufficient concessions & restrooms at this game. On the downside, all 4 tires may not be on the car after the game, if the car is there at all...

Look for an early start, can't imagine all those people in Chester after the sun goes down, the locals there call that "target practice"...

[HailSzczur]

Like the "Colonial Clash", a dry run for FBS?

Hardly, the Big East has already nixed PPL. I think its more an attempt to hype up more interest in the idea of FBS

[GannonFan]

Hardly, the Big East has already nixed PPL. I think its more an attempt to hype up more interest in the idea of FBS

Agreed - no one is going to a BCS conference using PPL as a home venue. That ship has sailed.

[Dane96]

It's official:

http://www.philadelphiaunion.com/news/2011/06/villanova-football-play-delaware-ppl-park-november-19

[VBR_Productions]

"'Even if they don't go (to the FCS) and get bigger opponents, we're their partner. We want to form a partnership with Villanova University to make PPL Park their home,' Union CEO Nick Sakiewicz told the Delaware County Times. 'We'll play more games. We'll play as many games as Villanova desires.'"

http://64.246.64.33/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/news/news.aspx?id=4415196

[Wildcat80]

Uhhh....relevant facts for visitors.....how many miles from Chester city center.....and how long will parking lot security guards be on hand?

[superman7515]

It's 37 minutes from Newark to PPL Park, 28 minutes from Villanova, so not too bad driving for either one. It's a little over a half mile straight line from the 10 students that were shot in April during the birthday party and a little less than 1.5 miles in the other direction from the shooting last week. So not the center, but you won't be let down since you have action close by in both directions. Of course, those who live nearby remember that last June part of the city of Chester was placed in a state of emergency due to shootings, and the area that was placed under police state included the stadium.


According to the proclamation, no person without a “legitimate reason” will be allowed on any public street or in any other public place in those areas at night, and there will be no gathering of three or more people allowed without obtaining a permit.

The proclamation gives officers the ability to stop and question anyone in those areas during the prohibited hours. Anyone who does not have a “reasonable or legitimate reason for their activity” will be cited, said Butler, and prosecuted “to the fullest extent of the law.”

[HailSzczur]

I've been in for afew Union games, once you get to the parking lot everything feels perfectly safe. However I can understand not wanting to drive by the prison and the rest of chester after a night game.

[Wildcat80]

I've been in for afew Union games, once you get to the parking lot everything feels perfectly safe. However I can understand not wanting to drive by the prison and the rest of chester after a night game.

Sooo....maybe just a concern for night games and leaving after too many tailgate drinks.....do not make any wrong turns!?

Thankfully Durham has no such worries.....unless you mistakenly go off road into a marsh!