Lafayette Trustees Vote to Award Athletic Scholarships

[carney2]

The Lafayette College Trustees voted to award athletic sholarships in men's and women's basketball and other "strategically selected men's and women's sports beginning with the class of 2011."

http://goleopards.collegesports.com/genrel/030906aaa.html

Summary:

Men's and Women's basketball beginning with the Class of 2010.

Men's soccer and women's lacrosse beginning with the Class of 2011.

Better late than never. Can football be far away?

[blukeys]

Better late than never. Can football be far away?


No and the pressure from Colgate et. al. will bring it sooner than 2011 in my view.

[TheValleyRaider]

The Lafayette College Trustees voted to award athletic sholarships in men's and women's basketball and other "strategically selected men's and women's sports beginning with the class of 2011."

http://goleopards.collegesports.com/genrel/030906aaa.html

Summary:

Men's and Women's basketball beginning with the Class of 2010.

Men's soccer and women's lacrosse beginning with the Class of 2011.

Better late than never. Can football be far away?

So how long until 13 comes out with the "I told you so":rolleyes: ;) :p

[DTSpider]

Those are "class of" figures. So class of 2011 should be those entering in the fall of 2007. That would be a quick turnaround for football.

Good move by the Patriot League. With the A10 officially becoming the CAA in 2007 this would allow Fordham to remain in the PL. If the PL would have moved to scholarships before than Fordham could not have been a member due to the A10 bylaws.

[carney2]

Those are "class of" figures. So class of 2011 should be those entering in the fall of 2007. That would be a quick turnaround for football.

Good move by the Patriot League. With the A10 officially becoming the CAA in 2007 this would allow Fordham to remain in the PL. If the PL would have moved to scholarships before than Fordham could not have been a member due to the A10 bylaws.


I'm not sure that we are on the same page here. Responding to what I believe are your points:

None of this involves football at the moment. There will be no football scholarships for the class entering in 2007. Colgate13, who is the AGS point man for Patriot League football scholarships predicts that they will become a reality for the class entering in 2009 or 2010, but he has no solid information to support this prediction.

Fordham's exodus from the Patriot League was based on their desire to have basketball scholarships and to have a higher profile basketball program. It has been, in my opinion, an unmitigated disaster for them. If they had stayed where they were, they could have teamed up with Holy Cross to force the basketball scholarship issue and might have made a few trips to March Madness by now. To the best of my knowledge, they have been consistent bottom feeders since joining the A-10. As for them returning to the Patriot League, anything is possible and they have a foot in the door with their current football only status.

[Fordham]

congrats pard fans!

carney, you got the first part right regarding the hoops reason for leaving but only 1/2 of the 'unmitigated disaster' (ok, maybe more than 1/2 but at least it's been the last few years that things are getting turned around). We actually have gone from bottom feeder to middle of the pack to quarterfinalist tonight against a team we beat at the end of the season (tip off just about now on MSG). Long-short, the program is on the rise in a big way - Derrick Whittenberg is doing a great job with the program.

I'm a huge PL proponent and wish we had never left but there are many that argue (and I think with some basis) that the unmitigated disaster part occured when we joined the PL as opposed to when we left it. Futher, there's a great argument that had we not left, HC's huffing and puffing might not have carried the same weight it did a few years later. Again, this is strictly from a hoops perspective, which is the most important sport on campus (unfortunately).

[JoltinJoe]

I agree. When Fordham pushed for hoops scholarships, where was Holy Cross? The Crusaders picked up the baton a few years later but Fordham had already made its point and left.

If Holy Cross had stood up when Fordham did, and both threatened to leave over the issues of scholarships, the PL would have had hoops scholarships years ago.

[colgate13]

carney - we're's the info on what other sports are getting them? The release doesn't specify...

As for the 'I told you so', that is still to be seen. I was betting (and frankly, pretty confident) that LC was going to approve scholarships this year under Weiss. He's getting cozy with our pres, so I thought it was a no brainer. Another no brainer is Bucknell will be expanding their scholarships very soon, quite possibly before the end of this academic year.

As for football, my prediction is standing at 4 years or less, meaning recruiting for the Class of 2014 or earlier. I think this is a HUGE step in the right direction. LC and IMO BU will begin to have similar experiences as Colgate and see the writing on the wall: why the heck wouldn't you do it for your biggest and highest profile sport?

(carney - as for having 'solid' information, my thoughts are based on fairly credible second hand information, common sense of where this train will ultimately take us, and conversations around my alma mater. It will happen IMO.)

CONGRATULATIONS LAFAYETTE! It's been a long time coming!

[JoltinJoe]

BTW, that "unmitigated disaster" is in the A-10 semis and now just two wins away from the NCAAs.

Who are we keeping company with? Some of the big boys: Temple, Xavier & St. Joseph's.:hurray:

[carney2]

carney - we're's the info on what other sports are getting them? The release doesn't specify...

Here's the paragraph from the press release that mentions other sports that will be receiving aid. My read is that these will be the only sports besides basketball for the time being.

"Merit-based athletic scholarships will be offered by coaches beginning in the fall of 2007 in the sports of men's soccer and women's field hockey. Coaches in these sports will have the ability to award athletic scholarship grants beyond need."

Other points:

It appears that I chose the wrong evening to use the term "unmitigated disaster" when referring to Fordham Rams basketball. At least, for the first time in memory, I have a team to support in the A-10 tournament. Go Rams! Can they get a bid off of what they've done so far, or do they need to win this thing?

Mr. 13, do not think for a minute that my earlier comments about your vision of the future of Patriot League football are in any way disparaging. You seem to have better information and more credible opinions than most of the rest of us Patriot Leaguers at this site. I put a lot of stock in your opinions and you have made a reasonable argument to support your claim that mercenaries will probably be part of our football future.

[JoltinJoe]

Other points:

It appears that I chose the wrong evening to use the term "unmitigated disaster" when referring to Fordham Rams basketball. At least, for the first time in memory, I have a team to support in the A-10 tournament. Go Rams! Can they get a bid off of what they've done so far, or do they need to win this thing?


We need to win it. Too many early season soft losses will haunt us, but we're playing amazing ball lately. The team has dramatically improved sine the beginning of the season. We just cleaned Temple's clock at Temple last week by 17. Temple rarely loses at home. Folks at the game said John Chaney looked baffled by what we were throwing at him.

Tomorrow's semifinal game against Xavier is going to be a tough one for us, as the game is in Cincy and is practically a home game for the Musketeers. Their fans will outnumber ours by a lopsided margin.

[ngineer]

Crazy as it sounds, I'm glad for LC--especially for O'Hanlon. I think you and we have the two best coaches in the League and I've felt sorry for Fran the past couple years. Now with schollies he should be able to work some magic and the dueling with Taylor could be real interesting and exciting.
I think we see the inertia leading toward football scholarships within the next 3-5 years. Lehigh will be hiring a new President, soon, and what his or her vision will be will certainly give a signal to the rest of the League. Lehigh--through, then President, Peter Likens was the biggest proponent of the Patriot League philosophy that excluded schollies; so with LC, Colgate, HC making noise this transition will be interesting...

[ngineer]

We need to win it. Too many early season soft losses will haunt us, but we're playing amazing ball lately. The team has dramatically improved sine the beginning of the season. We just cleaned Temple's clock at Temple last week by 17. Temple rarely loses at home. Folks at the game said John Chaney looked baffled by what we were throwing at him.

Tomorrow's semifinal game against Xavier is going to be a tough one for us, as the game is in Cincy and is practically a home game for the Musketeers. Their fans will outnumber ours by a lopsided margin.

Temple just knocked of George Washington tonight--not to be taken lightly!:cool:

[Pard4Life]

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

Thank God this travesty is finally over! Weiss rules! Finally, we can compete with the other basketball teams in the PL.

As for football, I'd say discussion starts in 2007, scholarships approved in 2009.

But, heck, I'm so happy for the moment!

[JoltinJoe]

Temple just knocked of George Washington tonight--not to be taken lightly!:cool:

Yes. Our 17-point victory at Temple was significant because we beat a storied program coached by a Hall of Fame coach in a building where it rarely loses. And in its very next game, Temple goes out and knocks off the No. 6 team in the nation!

[Pard94]

O Happy Day! Now that the sanctimonious "scholarships are evil" philosophy has been eliminated the way is clearly paved for schollies in football as well. Just doesn't make sense not to have them anymore.

Look for a resurgence of the Zoo Crew, coming to an arena near you!

GO PARDS!

[colgate13]

As for football, I'd say discussion starts in 2007, scholarships approved in 2009.

Discussions have already started... resistance from HC. The new Lehigh pres. could be the tipping point for scholarships, depending on who they get.

I have to think some Lehigh folks out there have a thought in the back of their mind that what's going down at the Citadel would be happening at LU if they had schollies - no offense to the current staff meant.

[carney2]

This morning's Allentown newspaper put the story of Lafayette basketball scholarships (they all but ignored the scholarships for men's soccer and women's lacrosse) above the fold in Section A. The press release was run through the journalism filter with some additional information provided. Two things struck me:

18 months ago the Board of Trustees voted 20 - 11 against awarding athletic scholarships, but this time they voted "unanimously" in favor. The article hints that in the previous vote the Board was reluctant to hand a new President a "done deal" in this controversial area, thereby allowing him to reach his own conclusions. Bullsquiggle! I happen to "know" that the Board voted as Arthur Rothkopf wanted them to vote 18 months ago, and they voted as Daniel Weiss wanted them to vote this time around. They are merely rubber stamps with legs - and check books. Looking back at the decisions that this group has made over the past 25 years I have come to believe that if I look up "incompetence" in the dictionary, I will find a group photo of the Lafayette Board of Trustees. This is yet more confirmation of that opinion. They got this one right, but it took them a long time and they certainly struggled with the obvious. They apparently cannot be confused by logic.

The second thing that concerns me comes from the following sentence in the newspaper article:

"No Patriot League schools offer football scholarships because they would be too costly.

I recognize that this is an editorial comment - and Colgate13 has convinced me that it is not true - but it certainly shows how far we have to go before hearts and minds can be moved in the direction of football scholarships.

[blukeys]

Yes. Our 17-point victory at Temple was significant because we beat a storied program coached by a Hall of Fame coach in a building where it rarely loses. And in its very next game, Temple goes out and knocks off the No. 6 team in the nation!


Good Luck to Fordham! They are my sentimental choice for the A-10.

[colgate13]

The second thing that concerns me comes from the following sentence in the newspaper article:

"No Patriot League schools offer football scholarships because they would be too costly.

I recognize that this is an editorial comment - and Colgate13 has convinced me that it is not true - but it certainly shows how far we have to go before hearts and minds can be moved in the direction of football scholarships.

How about a letter to the editor then from you to help educate the public? :)

[carney2]

How about a letter to the editor then from you to help educate the public? :)

What?!! And step out from behind the curtain of anonymity to be ridiculed and chastised by my fellow man? You've got to be kidding.

Actually, it's not a bad idea. In my opinion the timing isn't right, however. Methinx that we need to wait until the subject is actually - and seriously - under consideration before getting into the detailed - and admittedly dull - arguments. This is just some reporter type filling up space with a throw away comment. I'm saying that we should bask in this long overdue moment, while saving our ammunition for the battles yet to come.

[carney2]

Now with schollies he [Lafayette basketball coach, Fran O'Hanlon] should be able to work some magic and the dueling with [Lehigh basketball coach, Billy] Taylor could be real interesting and exciting.

I'm betting that Taylor has moved up and out before O'Hanlon gets this turned around. The current recruiting cycle has pretty well run its course and O'Hanlon can only now say with certainty that he has scholarships to offer. He may just be chasing "undecideds" and left overs at this late date. Beyond that, it is unrealistic to expect anyone to catch lightning in a bottle in his first try, as Pat Flannery did at Bucknell with his first scholarship group. Having said that, I am expecting big things down the road.

[TexasTerror]

Thoughts from one of the founders of the Colonial League, the pre-cursor to what has become the Patriot League...

Visions of idealism go up in smoke
Time to change. A former caretaker of need-based plan mourns over loss of a good model that cracked.
Friday, March 10, 206
By CORKY BLAKE
The Express-Times

For more than two decades psychology professor Alan Childs has enjoyed a front row seat to Lafayette College and Patriot League athletics.

Childs, who came to Lafayette in 1980, has served as a faculty mentor to the men's basketball team since the early 1990s when John Leone was coach.

It's also a little-known fact Childs was the first executive director of the Colonial League, the forerunner of the Patriot League.

In 1986, Childs was on leave from Lafayette and serving a fellowship at Colgate. When the two schools helped form the Division I-AA non-scholarship, football-only Colonial League, a Colgate administrator coaxed Childs into serving in the part-time role of executive director for three seasons.

Twenty years later, the presidents of the Colonial League's charter members have retired or moved on. Only Childs remains to tell the tale of their vision to bring fiscal and academic sanity to Division I athletics.

http://www.nj.com/sports/expresstimes/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1141967580215740.xml&coll=2

[ngineer]

This morning's Allentown newspaper put the story of Lafayette basketball scholarships (they all but ignored the scholarships for men's soccer and women's lacrosse) above the fold in Section A. The press release was run through the journalism filter with some additional information provided. Two things struck me:

18 months ago the Board of Trustees voted 20 - 11 against awarding athletic scholarships, but this time they voted "unanimously" in favor. The article hints that in the previous vote the Board was reluctant to hand a new President a "done deal" in this controversial area, thereby allowing him to reach his own conclusions. Bullsquiggle! I happen to "know" that the Board voted as Arthur Rothkopf wanted them to vote 18 months ago, and they voted as Daniel Weiss wanted them to vote this time around. They are merely rubber stamps with legs - and check books. Looking back at the decisions that this group has made over the past 25 years I have come to believe that if I look up "incompetence" in the dictionary, I will find a group photo of the Lafayette Board of Trustees. This is yet more confirmation of that opinion. They got this one right, but it took them a long time and they certainly struggled with the obvious. They apparently cannot be confused by logic.

The second thing that concerns me comes from the following sentence in the newspaper article:

"No Patriot League schools offer football scholarships because they would be too costly.

I recognize that this is an editorial comment - and Colgate13 has convinced me that it is not true - but it certainly shows how far we have to go before hearts and minds can be moved in the direction of football scholarships.

I read the same article and did not take that to be 'editorial comment' but an unattributed explanation that was given to the reporter as 'background.' I thought the same thing when I saw it--uh,oh. Because that is the thinking of a good number of people that going scholarship in football will be more expensive because there are so many more athletes. Most all other sports have squads ranging from 15-35. Football has around 100.

[Marcus Garvey]

Football scholarships in the PL will only happen, with great reluctance mind you, if the PL champion gets a$$-hammered in the first round for about 4 or 5 years straight. Oh, they'd also need to be whooped regularly by A-10 schools in OOC games. Since they've been competitve, and even had their champ make the title game, the presidents seem content with the status quo. Frankly, I don't blame them either.

[carney2]

Football scholarships in the PL will only happen, with great reluctance mind you, if the PL champion gets a$$-hammered in the first round for about 4 or 5 years straight. Oh, they'd also need to be whooped regularly by A-10 schools in OOC games. Since they've been competitve, and even had their champ make the title game, the presidents seem content with the status quo. Frankly, I don't blame them either.

Good points, all.

Colgate13?

[Go...gate]

Count me among those rooting for Fordham to win the A-10 BB tournament.

PL FB scholarships may be a while because there is still a relationship commonality with our fellow "equivalency-giving" Ivy schools and the PL still serves as a major source of its OOC games. Besides, a lot of PL alumni would still rather play Ivy League schools for the name-brand OOC value. That might change, however, if the PL could get more games with schools like UD, Richmond, ASU, Grambling, etc.

[ngineer]

Very good points in the prior posts, and quite valid. There is a strong relationship seen by many of the PL administrations and alumni, as well as faculty with the Ivy schools. Keep in mind the people making the ultimate decision are not 'nuts' about sports like we are and will make a decision based on the overall realtionship impact with the ACADEMIC package. They could care less about how many playoff games the PL wins. As long as PL teams are competitive with significant OOC teams, I agree, they may not want to change the status quo.
However, scholarships in the other sports have shown that the students recruited under the new programs have been better students than before. Some of this will be effected by perception and 'image' issues.

[colgate13]

Good points, all.

Colgate13?
Sure thing carney.

Marcus, there is another HUGE angle to scholarships and it is the one angle that has actually convinced the hold outs (Colgate and Lafayette) to make the change. It's not about getting beat in the playoffs or OOC. This may seem odd, but here goes:

IT'S ABOUT ACADEMICS.

Yes, strange but true, it is about how you can change the traditionally weakest part of your applicant pool into a much stronger one.

You can have two major impacts from a move to athletic scholarships:

First, you can now recruit a better student-athlete. It is no secret that better scores and grades often correlate with higher incomes and, therefore, less need. Without scholarships, these players are deciding to either go to the Ivy for prestige or to take the money for sports. A move to scholarships suddenly makes the PL an option for a whole class of students that are off the table right now. If Colgate went to football scholarships tomorrow, I think about 1/2 of our recruiting classes would stay the same, and a quarter would be made up of some of the Ivy's cream of the crop and the final quarter would be A-10/SoCon type players who are smart enough to get into the PL. Multiple this impact by the sheer size of football classes and overall squads, and at places like Colgate or Lafayette, you are essentially talking about 2-3% of a class. That's not something to take lightly. For PL schools to increase their academic profiles, the most bang for the buck is actually on the bottom of the class, not the super smart valedvictorians and high SAT kids. The top of a PL class is most likely still going to go Ivy or NESCAC.

Second, you can reduce the size of the large classes PL teams bring in because we have so many 'projects'. You still spend the same amount of dough, but on less players because they are more of the 'blue chip' variety. Right now PL schools could easily trim 5-8 players per year from their classes. Since the size of the school stays the same, that's 5-8 regular joe students who now can get into the school - and that joe student probably brings a better academic profile than the football player they are replacing.

So in essence, football scholarships are just like the other scholarships Colgate and Lafayette (and soon to be Bucknell) have already approved beyond basketball. Colgate didn't go to women's soccer or volleyball or men's soccer, etc. scholarships because we were getting beat OOC or losing in the playoffs. We did it because it makes sense both athletically AND academically. End of story. The academic piece, when explained and backed up with facts, is a pretty easy sell to the faculty and non-scholarship champions. Look what happens at LC when they actually get the facts!

So what needs to happen for PL football scholarships to come around is for BU and LC to experience what Colgate has for the past two years, and then wonder why in the world they WOULDN'T want to do it to the biggest and baddest sport of all. Then you've got 3 PL schools saying, "we're doing it for other sports. We're going to do it for football too." By then, I think a place like Lehigh will already have decided to offer scholarships in other sports. Holy Cross... I don't know. They will be the roadblock.

And finally, if we want to talk about on the field reasons for scholarships, it may not have to be from the A-10 that pressure is felt. I'm predicting it will be from the NEC as well. They already took a few from the PL this year that they wouldn't have in the past. They will win more games against us. Getting beat by Stony Brook or Monmouth (much less CCSU) isn't something that Colgate, or any PL team for that matter, is looking to do.

[colgate13]

As for the Ivy relationship issue, football scholarships aren't going to change it.

Who else is the Ivy going to play? The 5 MAAC schools and long trips to the PFL?

The Ivy already is living with PL basketball scholarships, ECACHL hockey scholarships, lacross scholarships, etc.

I think we've got at least 3 very pro-sports presidents in this league now (a nice change from the past) at CU, BU and LC. I think they're not necessarily interested in just the status quo when sports are bringing such positive things to the universities. At Colgate, football and hockey are revered. A national championship in hockey is not unthinkable. BU has been ranked nationally in hoops! These people aren't dummies; they see the benefit in a strong athletic program.

[blukeys]

As for the Ivy relationship issue, football scholarships aren't going to change it.

Who else is the Ivy going to play? The 5 MAAC schools and long trips to the PFL?



Certainly not teams in the A-10/CAA. That would put too much tarnish on their halos. The PL is on safe grounds with the IVIES. :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

[carney2]

Well done again, Mr. 13. One additonal point and one additional question - both related to items that I know we have discussed in the past.

You suggested a letter to the editor or some such to begin educating the public on Patriot League football scholarships. I don't know if you are aware, but a columnist at the Allentown Morning Call broached this subject back in November. He didn't shed much light on the subject, but at least he put it out there. - Oh yeah, he was in favor.

My question involves the Title IX implications of football scholarships. You have indicated in the past that this is a non-issue due to the existence of scholarship equivalencies that have already been factored into the gender equality equation. Could you please elaborate because, in my mind, football scholarships breaks new ground that would require some additional action in the gender equity arena.

[Go...gate]

I hope you are right but I think this just gives the Ivy another excuse to move closeer to the NESCAC in terms of "purity". If FB scholarships come, and it becomes clear that the PL and will not go in the same directions, many of the PL-Ivy series will end and the Ivy will either play only games among its members or will begin playing games against Williams, Amherst, Hamilton, Dickinson, Gettysburg and such.

[Marcus Garvey]

colgat13:

I'm aware of the academic improvements made by scholarship athletes in the PL. However, the Administrations currently don't have a problem with the academic performances of their football teams, so that issue won't be comming up for discussion anytime soon. Keep in mind, the PL presidents change about as fast as a glacier moves. Only with a gun to their head have the forced changes (i.e., Holy Cross' threat to leave). Since nobody is currently holding a gun, it's a non-issue from their perspective.

[Go...gate]

If it stays the way it is in FB, so be it (though we can probably kiss any chance of adding Villanova, Richmond or VMI good-bye). The PL has proved it can compete with anybody. The overall league is stronger with Lafayette's move.

[colgate13]

My question involves the Title IX implications of football scholarships. You have indicated in the past that this is a non-issue due to the existence of scholarship equivalencies that have already been factored into the gender equality equation. Could you please elaborate because, in my mind, football scholarships breaks new ground that would require some additional action in the gender equity arena.

Sure thing - actually, this was just brought up on the Lehigh board too.

The need-based equivalents 'count' for Title IX because the need based money is specifically designated for football, i.e. it is athletically related aid. It is the same as scholarships.

There is a reason why Colgate's scholarship plan as it stands now is more heavily weighted towards women's sports: to balance out the spending on football for Title IX. That's the reason why a sport like women's ice hockey was added as a varsity sport several years ago, and why a sport like women's golf will come to the PL sooner than later.

If need-based aid like the PL was somehow exempt from Title IX, don't you think every program (or a heck of a lot anyway) in Division I would adopt it as a means to circumvent the additional money they have to cough up on women's sports that make no money?

Need-based aid given to football players is athletically related aid, just like scholarships. It is not some magical way around Title IX. Just because we've put hurdles up as to the way we award money to football, doesn't make the fact that we are giving a lot of money just to male football players go away.

When it is all said and done, a place like Colgate is going to have to offer enough women's scholarships/need-based aid to cover the costs of football (55 or so), basketball (12), ice hockey (12) lacrosse (oh, 8 or so), and soccer (again, 8 or so). That's roughly 95 men's scholarships and equivalents. That's why the women get scholarships in basketball, ice hockey, lacrosse (higher amount) and soccer (higher amount) along with sports without a male counterpart or matching scholarship amount: field hockey, softball, swimming, and volleyball.

Basically, to stay in compliance with Title IX, those last four sports and lax and soccer have to eat up about 55 scholarships. If football was somehow exempt from Title IX, you could kiss those women's scholarships goodbye.

[colgate13]

I hope you are right but I think this just gives the Ivy another excuse to move closeer to the NESCAC in terms of "purity". If FB scholarships come, and it becomes clear that the PL and will not go in the same directions, many of the PL-Ivy series will end and the Ivy will either play only games among its members or will begin playing games against Williams, Amherst, Hamilton, Dickinson, Gettysburg and such.

I don't see that ever happening.

In order to go the D-III NESCAC route, the Ivies would have to give up their nationally competitive lacrosse, ice hockey, soccer, etc. programs.

They're stuck with Division I football, and all its warts.

And unless the Ivy is adopting a 7 game schedule, 8 Ivies will need 3 OOCs a year. Colgate will be right there on their list of schools to call.

[colgate13]

I'm aware of the academic improvements made by scholarship athletes in the PL. However, the Administrations currently don't have a problem with the academic performances of their football teams, so that issue won't be comming up for discussion anytime soon. Keep in mind, the PL presidents change about as fast as a glacier moves. Only with a gun to their head have the forced changes (i.e., Holy Cross' threat to leave). Since nobody is currently holding a gun, it's a non-issue from their perspective.

I disagree considerably with the bolded comment. Football recruits are usually the bottom (along with basketball) of the applicant pool. Presidents will listen and make decisions if they can improve their standing during their tenure. It's a dog eat dog world out there, and if Colgate (or Lafayette, Bucknell, etc) could move up even one spot in USN&WR, it's an issue on the table to consider.

As for the presidents changing, the fact that there is considerable presidental turnover right now means the time is ripe for a shake up. Colgate's on board with a pres of less than 3 years (who made the scholarship move decision in her first), Bucknell's president is what, 2 years in? Lafayette's in his first year and made the scholarship move and Lehigh is getting a new prez soon too. That really just leaves Holy Cross as the obstacle. Fordham and G'Town as associates are really on the outside looking in on this decision IMO.

Finally, no one held a gun to Colgate's head to roll out scholarships in sports besides basketball, but we did.

[colgate13]

If it stays the way it is in FB, so be it (though we can probably kiss any chance of adding Villanova, Richmond or VMI good-bye). The PL has proved it can compete with anybody. The overall league is stronger with Lafayette's move.

This issue is a key reason IMO why football scholarships will continue to get looked at. The PL needs to move and grow or else risk losing any momentum we've gained in the past years. The PL came out with a strategic plan, and if you read some of the wording, it will not be crazy to think that we try and set ourselves up as a more attractive place for potential members.

[Pard4Life]

I don't see how Ivies could ever not be competitive or become isolated if the PL gives scholarships. They have the name recognition and educational status. Potential recruits offered a need-based package to an Ivy institution and a full scholarship to the PL, I still think it will be a toss-up and difficult decision for many potential players. Yes, the PL has great schools, but the Ivy is college football's foundation and has a significant heritage. That pull can be too great for some recruits to ignore. And the academics, I think we are all aware of that selling point. If you are smart, you are going to want a secure future and likely the Ivy football networks are second to none. Also, the Ivy has sent numerous players to the NFL, while the PL has sent really only Abdullah (and even he is out now).

Bottom line, the Ivys might lose some recruits, but nowhere near having to contemplate moving down a notch to D3 or competing with the Pioneer.

[ngineer]

Sure thing carney.

Marcus, there is another HUGE angle to scholarships and it is the one angle that has actually convinced the hold outs (Colgate and Lafayette) to make the change. It's not about getting beat in the playoffs or OOC. This may seem odd, but here goes:

IT'S ABOUT ACADEMICS.

Yes, strange but true, it is about how you can change the traditionally weakest part of your applicant pool into a much stronger one.

You can have two major impacts from a move to athletic scholarships:

First, you can now recruit a better student-athlete. It is no secret that better scores and grades often correlate with higher incomes and, therefore, less need. Without scholarships, these players are deciding to either go to the Ivy for prestige or to take the money for sports. A move to scholarships suddenly makes the PL an option for a whole class of students that are off the table right now. If Colgate went to football scholarships tomorrow, I think about 1/2 of our recruiting classes would stay the same, and a quarter would be made up of some of the Ivy's cream of the crop and the final quarter would be A-10/SoCon type players who are smart enough to get into the PL. Multiple this impact by the sheer size of football classes and overall squads, and at places like Colgate or Lafayette, you are essentially talking about 2-3% of a class. That's not something to take lightly. For PL schools to increase their academic profiles, the most bang for the buck is actually on the bottom of the class, not the super smart valedvictorians and high SAT kids. The top of a PL class is most likely still going to go Ivy or NESCAC.

Second, you can reduce the size of the large classes PL teams bring in because we have so many 'projects'. You still spend the same amount of dough, but on less players because they are more of the 'blue chip' variety. Right now PL schools could easily trim 5-8 players per year from their classes. Since the size of the school stays the same, that's 5-8 regular joe students who now can get into the school - and that joe student probably brings a better academic profile than the football player they are replacing.

So in essence, football scholarships are just like the other scholarships Colgate and Lafayette (and soon to be Bucknell) have already approved beyond basketball. Colgate didn't go to women's soccer or volleyball or men's soccer, etc. scholarships because we were getting beat OOC or losing in the playoffs. We did it because it makes sense both athletically AND academically. End of story. The academic piece, when explained and backed up with facts, is a pretty easy sell to the faculty and non-scholarship champions. Look what happens at LC when they actually get the facts!

So what needs to happen for PL football scholarships to come around is for BU and LC to experience what Colgate has for the past two years, and then wonder why in the world they WOULDN'T want to do it to the biggest and baddest sport of all. Then you've got 3 PL schools saying, "we're doing it for other sports. We're going to do it for football too." By then, I think a place like Lehigh will already have decided to offer scholarships in other sports. Holy Cross... I don't know. They will be the roadblock.



And finally, if we want to talk about on the field reasons for scholarships, it may not have to be from the A-10 that pressure is felt. I'm predicting it will be from the NEC as well. They already took a few from the PL this year that they wouldn't have in the past. They will win more games against us. Getting beat by Stony Brook or Monmouth (much less CCSU) isn't something that Colgate, or any PL team for that matter, is looking to do.


Actually, 13, Lehigh is already giving athletic scholarships in other sports. Besides basketball, wrestling get full funding for max allowed by the NCAA. The school allowed this when the alumni ponied up the money to create the fund. I also think we give some scholarships in a couple other sports--some women. I'm not sure of this, but it was my thought that we now give schollies in lacrosse...?

[colgate13]

Actually, 13, Lehigh is already giving athletic scholarships in other sports. Besides basketball, wrestling get full funding for max allowed by the NCAA. The school allowed this when the alumni ponied up the money to create the fund. I also think we give some scholarships in a couple other sports--some women. I'm not sure of this, but it was my thought that we now give schollies in lacrosse...?

My reference was to the PL only.

You do not give out PL scholarships in anything but hoops. You probably had to increase need based money on the women's side for Title IX when wrestling got the schollies.

[ngineer]

I don't see how Ivies could ever not be competitive or become isolated if the PL gives scholarships. They have the name recognition and educational status. Potential recruits offered a need-based package to an Ivy institution and a full scholarship to the PL, I still think it will be a toss-up and difficult decision for many potential players. Yes, the PL has great schools, but the Ivy is college football's foundation and has a significant heritage. That pull can be too great for some recruits to ignore. And the academics, I think we are all aware of that selling point. If you are smart, you are going to want a secure future and likely the Ivy football networks are second to none. Also, the Ivy has sent numerous players to the NFL, while the PL has sent really only Abdullah (and even he is out now).
Bottom line, the Ivys might lose some recruits, but nowhere near having to contemplate moving down a notch to D3 or competing with the Pioneer.

"Minor" correction here. Adam Bergen had a hell of a year for the Arizona Cardinals as a rookie tight end--25 or so receptions with a TD.;)

[65 Pard]

Here's why the Ivies dont need scholarships: the pool of outstanding high school athletes who qualify for a scholarship on a need basis and who have Ivy academic credentials has enough applicants who want and will opt for an Ivy education.

I dont see PL scholarships affecting that, but we can now compete for those who may have gotten a partial Ivy scholarship or a smart guy who has gotten a full ride from , say, Northeastern or Rutgers and who wants what he might perceive to be a superior education

[carney2]

What is the "equivalent" count for each of the Patriot League football programs? My understanding is:

Bucknell = ??
Colgate = 55
Fordham = ??
Georgetown = ??
Holy Cross = ??
Lafayette = 55
Lehigh = 55

[Marcus Garvey]

Finally, no one held a gun to Colgate's head to roll out scholarships in sports besides basketball, but we did.


My "gun" comment was with respect the League itself instituting rule changes, not individual school decisions.

[colgate13]

What is the "equivalent" count for each of the Patriot League football programs? My understanding is:

Bucknell = ??
Colgate = 55
Fordham = ??
Georgetown = ??
Holy Cross = ??
Lafayette = 55
Lehigh = 55

I'm pretty confident you can include BU and FU in the same 50-55 crowd as the rest of us.

[colgate13]

My "gun" comment was with respect the League itself instituting rule changes, not individual school decisions.

Understood.

However, if enough individual schools make those decisions, the 'gun' will effectively be put on the league! :D

[carney2]

I'm pretty confident you can include BU and FU in the same 50-55 crowd as the rest of us.

But not Georgetown or Holy Cross. Is that what you are saying?

[colgate13]

But not Georgetown or Holy Cross. Is that what you are saying?

Not G'Town, yes. HC, I have no idea.

[Go...gate]

13, is this on the PL website? If not, could you provide a link?

Many thanks.

[Pard4Life]

"Minor" correction here. Adam Bergen had a hell of a year for the Arizona Cardinals as a rookie tight end--25 or so receptions with a TD.;)

Egad! You are right.. I forgot, and I even searched his stats on a weekly basis. Thanks for the correction!

[Go...gate]

Colgate 13, I hope you are right that the Ivy will not become a companion conference to the NESCAC but alas, the Ivy does not live in the real world. :read:

For example, I note discussion on the Voyforums Ivy board stating that there has been discussion about further reducing already-limited slots for football admittees, which are already limited to about 25-30 per year. The number thrown around is 15 admits per year. How many Division I-AA programs could operate on those numbers, even playing Iona and LaSalle?

I believe that any conference will cut off their nose to spite their collective athletic face, it will be the Ivy.

[colgate13]

13, is this on the PL website? If not, could you provide a link?

Many thanks.

I can't find it on the PL website, but... in the irony of all ironies, I did find this link (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2064&highlight=patriot+league+plan). ;)

To recap, the 5 year goals of the PL are:

1) Overall League Competitiveness;

2) Strengthening and Expanding League Membership;

3) Marketing and Branding;

4) Fiscal Integrity;

5) Academic Excellence.

Numbers 1 and 2 leave football schollies out there for consideration. You can't seriously think about league expansion in conjunction with competitiveness without football scholarships.

[colgate13]

Colgate 13, I hope you are right that the Ivy will not become a companion conference to the NESCAC but alas, the Ivy does not live in the real world. :read:

For example, I note discussion on the Voyforums Ivy board stating that there has been discussion about further reducing already-limited slots for football admittees, which are already limited to about 25-30 per year. The number thrown around is 15 admits per year. How many Division I-AA programs could operate on those numbers, even playing Iona and LaSalle?

I believe that any conference will cut off their nose to spite their collective athletic face, it will be the Ivy.

The hard truth is you can't have an a la carte athletic program. As long as the Ivy wants Division I in the rest of their sports, they will be in football as well. They can ruin their programs however they like, but they'll still be Division I. Another reason to branch out in PL OOC scheduling IMO... we don't want to go down with their ship!

[Go...gate]

Irony of ironies, indeed. This must have been removed sometime after July 22, because I recall reading it. Ahh, another senior moment.

[carney2]

The hard truth is you can't have an a la carte athletic program. As long as the Ivy wants Division I in the rest of their sports, they will be in football as well. They can ruin their programs however they like, but they'll still be Division I. Another reason to branch out in PL OOC scheduling IMO... we don't want to go down with their ship!

The hard fact is that Ivy schools will have as much trouble with their alumni as any other school if there is a perceived reduction in quality and competitiveness. Some of those alums actually remember - or have heard about - the days (more than 50 years ago) when Ivy football was the 2,000 pound gorilla which Army, Michigan and Notre Dame challenged with only mixed results. Some of those same alumni, however, don't need Cliff Notes to help them with their memories of Princeton and Penn basketball teams that made real runs at NCAA championships. They have been the big kids and will not willingly leave the big stage.

My point is that the Ivys will not go D-III. They will always be a I-A/I-AA/I-whatever, BUT on their terms. And you and I aren't going to change them. When/if the NCAA comes up with "Bowl" and "Playoff" categories for D-I football, they are going to need a "none of the above" for the Ivys.

[blukeys]

The hard fact is that Ivy schools will have as much trouble with their alumni as any other school if there is a perceived reduction in quality and competitiveness. Some of those alums actually remember - or have heard about - the days (more than 50 years ago) when Ivy football was the 2,000 pound gorilla which Army, Michigan and Notre Dame challenged with only mixed results. Some of those same alumni, however, don't need Cliff Notes to help them with their memories of Princeton and Penn basketball teams that made real runs at NCAA championships. They have been the big kids and will not willingly leave the big stage.

My point is that the Ivys will not go D-III. They will always be a I-A/I-AA/I-whatever, BUT on their terms. And you and I aren't going to change them. When/if the NCAA comes up with "Bowl" and "Playoff" categories for D-I football, they are going to need a "none of the above" for the Ivys.


I disagree.

The Ivies are already beginning to crack with their most recent resolution. They have tried to maintain the illusion that there is no other D-I AA football out there but everyone has noticed. No longer can they say "Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain". The Ivies compete in all other Division I sports and not football. The real fans want to see how they measure up. The alumni who are opposed to playoff participation are dying off every year and in the end the Ivies will change just as the PL will eventually go to scholarships for football.

There is an upside for all of I-AA. The PL and IVY commitment to academics will be a factor to maintaining higher standards for all of I-AA.

[colgate13]

The alumni who are opposed to playoff participation are dying off every year

So true...

Colgate deals with this now in some ways, as the older tend to alums care more about our OOC games with the Ivys than playing some other playoff schools that will help our program rise in I-AA. Drives me crazy!

[blukeys]

So true...

Colgate deals with this now in some ways, as the older tend to alums care more about our OOC games with the Ivys than playing some other playoff schools that will help our program rise in I-AA. Drives me crazy!


I guess as one of those old alums who still wants to see UD beat Temple and Rutgers I know how they feel. But the new realities are that there are better teams out there and scheduling teams such as Furman makes more sense overall.

The perceptive UD fans are aware that there are really good I-AA teams worth scheduling and that it is to UD's benefit to schedule them. (Rather than West Chester)

There are UD fans who really want to schedule Penn and I don't get it. Lehigh is a better team and only 45 miles down the road from PENN.


Put Lehigh or Lafayette on the schedule before begging Penn for a game. Both are better teams year in and year out.

[*****]

Penn is not a worse team year in and out ...

[DFW HOYA]

Good move by the Patriot League. With the A10 officially becoming the CAA in 2007 this would allow Fordham to remain in the PL. If the PL would have moved to scholarships before than Fordham could not have been a member due to the A10 bylaws.

Could you explain this? Temple competes with scholarships outside the A-10.

[colgate13]

Could you explain this? Temple competes with scholarships outside the A-10.

Temple competes at a higher level.

You can't compete in a different conference for a sport if the conference you are a member of sponsors that sport, at that level.

So Fordham can stay in the PL because it is 'nonscholarship' and be A-10 in everything else. If they wanted scholarships, they would have to go A-10. But with the A-10 dropping sponsorship of football and the CAA taking it up, Fordham, a member of the A-10, could compete in any conference with scholarships because the A-10 doesnt' sponsor it.

For example, if Colgate wanted to go to football scholarships, and the PL wouldn't allow it, we could find a home in a scholarships conference as a football affiliate. We could not, however, find a home in a need-based conference like the Ivy. Same deal if we wanted to be I-A.

[carney2]

There are UD fans who really want to schedule Penn and I don't get it. Lehigh is a better team and only 45 miles down the road from PENN.


Put Lehigh or Lafayette on the schedule before begging Penn for a game. Both are better teams year in and year out.

You have disagreement in this corner. My guess is that if Lehigh AND Lafayette had scheduled Penn in each of the last 10 years, the Quackers would have gone 8 - 2 or even 9 - 1 against Lafayette and would have had a winning record against Lehigh. Here are some numbers for you (Lafayette only):

Last 10 years, Penn is 3 - 0 vs. Lafayette.

Lifetime, Penn is 60 - 18 - 4 vs. Lafayette.

Since the early 90's - and particularly in the Bagnoli era - Penn has been a lot better than people give them credit for. As has been pointed out many times at this site, the Ivys don't play enough games outside of the Ivy/Patriot axis to really test themselves. My guess is that the top 2 or 3 Ivy teams (and this always includes Penn) would acquit themselves quite admirably vs. any I-AA opponent that was placed in front of them.

[Pards Rule]

Carney, absolutely agreed! I happened to be holed up in the Detroit airport in early Dec. and spent quite some time talking to a Penn defensive coach. He said the team looks forward to playing non-Ives to test their mettle. I told him I would be at the Penn-LC game (the first game at the renovated Fisher Field) on Sept. 16th!

[carney2]

Carney, absolutely agreed! I happened to be holed up in the Detroit airport in early Dec. and spent quite some time talking to a Penn defensive coach. He said the team looks forward to playing non-Ives to test their mettle. I told him I would be at the Penn-LC game (the first game at the renovated Fisher Field) on Sept. 16th!

Remember - under the lights.