end of I-AA ?

[tarmac]

There has been some talk on I-AA Waves the past 2 weeks about the upcoming NCCA meetings in I think April and the possible elimation of the extra A. Something like a (BCS) Bowl Championship Series and (PCS) Playoff Championship Series. Anyone have any input on the chance of this happening and will it the be the same old thing with just a new name?

[Mr. Tiger]

No one knows for sure. Some believe it will simply be a name change, but I believe it will lead to something much more because talk of this change comes amid the move to allow D I-A schools to count more wins against Division I-AA opponents and it comes while some MAC and Sun Belt schools struggle to meet the attendance requirement to remain in I-A.
Meanwhile, Division II officials are concerned about schools leaving their division for D I-AA, which is happening every year. But the problem begins and ends with conferences lke the MAC and Sun Belt. They desperately need more home games because the big boys are not going to travel there and they need home games with attendance figures over 15,000. That's a tall task for a school like Kent State. This has begun a debate on what to do with these schools that obviously don't meet the Division I-A attendance requirement and kicking them out of Division I-A is out of the question for the NCAA.

[ASU Kep]

There has been some talk on I-AA Waves the past 2 weeks about the upcoming NCCA meetings in I think April and the possible elimation of the extra A. Something like a (BCS) Bowl Championship Series and (PCS) Playoff Championship Series. Anyone have any input on the chance of this happening and will it the be the same old thing with just a new name?

I'm not an "insider" at all, but I think a name change would be a GREAT improvement. It's so easy for most fans to write of "I-AA" as being inferior because of the extra "A". But how on Earth could you argue that a flawed commercial bowl system beats the playoffs??? I think the change might do wonders for us publicity-wise (after a while) and make a lot of schools (like App) think twice about making the leap to I-A. Unlike a lot of App fans, I'm all for staying "PCS". And if current I-A teams decide to join us, I don't see it hurting anybody at all. Let the SEC and all those money-whores have their worthless bowl games. I'd welcome all comers to the new PCS. In conclusion, I really, really, really hope this happens.:nod:

[*****]

No hoping about it, it is coming. Soon enough schools will decide if they want an NCAA playoff championship or a bowl game in D-I.

[ASU Kep]

No hoping about it, it is coming. Soon enough schools will decide if they want an NCAA playoff championship or a bowl game in D-I.

Now THAT sounds like an "insider"'s perspective. :nod: I think I've already made it clear that I'd be pretty happy with the name-change and a few upgrades. What do you think about it, ralph? :confused:

[*****]

I don't like it but I have to accept it.

[ASU Kep]

I don't like it but I have to accept it.

Do you not like it because it's a change, or because you think it will do away with what is now I-AA? Are you afraid that a hypothetical PCS will attract too many current I-A's and do away with what are now the perennial powers of I-AA? Help me to understand an opposing viewpoint on this.

[Ronbo]

There is still going to be a scholarship difference isn't there? An 85 schollie team will not be allowed in the playoffs.

[ASU Kep]

There is still going to be a scholarship difference isn't there? An 85 schollie team will not be allowed in the playoffs.

I hope everything stays the same except the name, really, but have no idea 'bout the scholies. Maybe thats what has ralph so worried. In order to lure more teams to PCS, PCS would change it's current policies?

[*****]

Do you not like it because it's a change, or because you think it will do away with what is now I-AA? Are you afraid that a hypothetical PCS will attract too many current I-A's and do away with what are now the perennial powers of I-AA? Help me to understand an opposing viewpoint on this.I have been talking about this forever. Each week on I-AA WAVES I give my opinion on this.

It takes away our identity.
We are not pretending to be Ohio State or Alabama.
That's the reason we are not I-A.
We are cost containment D-I football.
That's the reason we have non-scholly teams.
That's the reason we have conferences that don't join in the playoffs.

The only reason I can fathom why this is happening is ego.
Folks cannot stand being different.
Folks are afraid to be viewed as less than the top.
Folks unreasonably want to be Ohio State or Alabama.

I-AA is not the top tier but it is what we can afford.
It is what we are.
It is why we exist.
I-AA is the top true NCAA football championship level.

Soon we will be D-I like Ohio State or Alabama, sort of.

What will be the distinction?
A true NCAA football championship?

I think it will cheapen that since our other D-I brethren will have the much larger BCS. The much wealthier BCS. The higher scholarship level BCS. The nationally televised BCS. And for most of D-I, the unattainable BCS.

Now, I-AA has one shelf and BCS has another.
The barrier between I-AA and I-A distinguishes us.
Soon, the barrier remains but no shelf.

[Ronbo]

As long as no schollie programs are mixed up with full scholarship programs I-AA is a joke and a farce.

[catbob]

I like your points Ralph, but face the facts - most I-AA teams are in the red consistently. The name change is a mere marketing tool targeted at more revenues for IAA programs. Will it work? Who knows, but there is certainly no harm trying.

Ralph, you remind me of something I call the "Green Day syndrome". Many people used to love Green Day, because it wasn't popular, and they felt it was their own music. When they hit it big, a lot of people stopped listening to them because of that fact - too many people knew about it now. They missed out on a lot of great music because of their ego.

I too am afraid that I-AA would become watered down, so to speak, but I would love it if the PCS system gave a national attendance boost of even 5%.

[*****]

As long as no schollie programs are mixed up with full scholarship programs I-AA is a joke and a farce.Why do you come here and post "I-AA is a joke and a farce" when your favorite team is part of I-AA and this is the national I-AA board? What part of what I posted do you have a problem with?

[*****]

... most I-AA teams are in the red consistently..."Green Day syndrome"...
Most D-I teams are in the red consistently.

Let's short circuit this from becoming a I-AA vs. I-A thread.

Kep wanted to "understand an opposing viewpoint" and I posted what I could of an opposing viewpoint.

I have been over this ad nauseum and there's no need to reprise it.

The Green Day analogy doesn't fit does it? Or are you too thinking you can be Ohio State or Alabama?

[catbob]

Most D-I teams are in the red consistently.

A majority, yes. I wouldn't say most.

What teams make money in IAA? Montana, Delaware, GSU? Most teams have to play IA anyway to try and break even.

[Tod]

A majority, yes. I wouldn't say most.

What teams make money in IAA? Montana, Delaware, GSU? Most teams have to play IA anyway to try and break even.

Hey, catbob, I'm sure more than those three schools make money on their football programs. If I'm not mistaken, the 'Cats ain't no slouch. I think #12 for attendance? Maybe 14? Whatever it is, I have a hard time believing the 'Cats don't make money. Am I wrong (sure hope not)?

My problem with this whole thing is something already mentioned, the schollies. No way is it fair if the two teams that make it to the NC are the Griz and the UNM Lobos (Just using my own team and the team from the city where I currently live for the example).

How do they work this out? What happens to the mid-majors?

I agree with Ralph 100%, FWIW. I like the difference between 1-A and I-AA. Different levels are a good thing. It's clear cut. But the BCS and the PCS just means that the "losers" play in the PCS. Or at least that will be the perception. People understand different levels, they won't understand this.

[*****]

23 teams in the non-traditional BCS conferences report making money (we'll leave Notre Dame out of this), 29 don't. That means most.

The 23 report gain averages to $1,551,707.48 (11 exceeded that)
The 29 report loss averages to -$1,384,311 (15 exceeded that)

[TigerFan17]

ralph,

Of course a lot of people don't like to seem inferior. Its human nature to want to be the best, the top tier. You always want to move up. The mid and low level I-AA's want to be the top of I-AA and the top of I-AA largely wants to move to I-A, and so it continues until they became the #1 team in the nation at the I-A level. You always want to be the best. Most people can't settle for mediocrity.

[*****]

ralph,
Of course a lot of people don't like to seem inferior. Its human nature to want to be the best, the top tier. You always want to move up. The mid and low level I-AA's want to be the top of I-AA and the top of I-AA largely wants to move to I-A, and so it continues until they became the #1 team in the nation at the I-A level. You always want to be the best. Most people can't settle for mediocrity.Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh... so now I-AA is MEDIOCRE huh? xlolx

Look, we don't have a choice.

Even the short skinny person has to realize they will not make the varsity team as a center.

It's not inferior or mediocre, it is what it is.

If you want Ohio State or Alabama you won't find it in I-AA.

That's why I-AA exists.

[Poly Pigskin]

This debate is old and tired, and there is no obvious solution or it would already be in place. Personally I love I-AA, even though it is "mediocre," but giving schools the option between a BCS and PCS system is a bad idea. I think a lot of low end I-A teams would choose the PCS because the chance at a postseason would draw more fans. That would hurt a lot of current I-AA schools, because we would be playing against theoretically better talent more often.

I would, however, tolerate a change as long as the scholarships were different between the two levels, as I think this would prevent more schools from moving down to a PCS. Cutting scholarships would really hurt recruiting and eventually they might not be competitive at this level. I guess my opinion comes down to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," even though you could argue that it is broke. It's just that the BCS/PCS isn't a fix, it's just something different that may or may not work.

Also, what happens to conferences that don't compete in the playoffs now? They obviously aren't PCS if they don't participate in the playoffs currently, and I can't see many of them going to the BCS and ever getting invited to a bowl (and if they are required to add sholarships the certainly won't go).

[AmsterBison]

My main problem with the I-AA label is that it is so widely misused to describe our entire athletic department. If we keep the playoffs but lose the "AA", I guess that's OK with me (and this from the guy who used beer money to buy the diaafootball.com domain name :) ).

[catbob]

Hey, catbob, I'm sure more than those three schools make money on their football programs. If I'm not mistaken, the 'Cats ain't no slouch. I think #12 for attendance? Maybe 14? Whatever it is, I have a hard time believing the 'Cats don't make money. Am I wrong (sure hope not)?

My problem with this whole thing is something already mentioned, the schollies. No way is it fair if the two teams that make it to the NC are the Griz and the UNM Lobos (Just using my own team and the team from the city where I currently live for the example).

How do they work this out? What happens to the mid-majors?

I agree with Ralph 100%, FWIW. I like the difference between 1-A and I-AA. Different levels are a good thing. It's clear cut. But the BCS and the PCS just means that the "losers" play in the PCS. Or at least that will be the perception. People understand different levels, they won't understand this.

Did a real quick search, for 04-05, we reported that our revenues exceeded our expenses by a quarter-million. But keep in mind that includes a payday to a IA.

[catbob]

My main problem with the I-AA label is that it is so widely misused to describe our entire athletic department. If we keep the playoffs but lose the "AA", I guess that's OK with me (and this from the guy who used beer money to buy the diaafootball.com domain name :) ).

I definately don't like being labeled as IAA in every sport, or people saying that we aren't a D1 basketball program. The PCS might help this.

As long as they force every PCS team to have the same number of scholarships, some lower level teams might join the PCS (Buffalo, Troy, etc etc). Is that necessarily a bad thing?

[tarmac]

Does anyone have any real idea of how this thing is going to work or is all we know at this point is that it will happen in some form. I am looking for facts not opnion with this question.

[mikebigg]

If the now-current D1A schools decide to participate in a playoffs, will the NCAA still get the same payout as what they are getting from D1AA teams? That's my only knock against the current D1AA playoffs...it's not a money maker and my athletic department needs to make money from our football program.

[Mr. Tiger]

Does anyone have any real idea of how this thing is going to work or is all we know at this point is that it will happen in some form. I am looking for facts not opnion with this question.

The facts haven't been decided yet. That's why everyone is speculating based on earlier talks. On the NCAA's official website there are stories that suggest officials want to do more than just get rid of the I-AA tag. If you break down all of the prior stories from earlier NCAA meetings then many Division I-AA advocates have come to the conclusion that Division
I-AA as we know it will be DEAD.

I addressed this in a thread in January: Big changes for Division I-AA? Here is what I have concluded: There will be Division I BCS (Bowl Championship Series) and a Division I PCS (Playoff Championship Series). Every current Division I-A conference will be a part of the BCS system, but bowl eligibility will be determined by the ability to maintain attendance (15,000) and funding requirements (scholarship levels). The PCS will be open to teams that don't meet the BCS requirements.

[*****]

AFAIK the name change is the only thing expected to be implemented right away. Like others here I have reservations about it but I guess it is full steam ahead.

[DUPFLFan]

Seems to me that there are really three classes

1-a
1-aa
1-aa non scholarship

So Ralph, in your opinion, what happens to the I-aa non-scholarship in this scenario, since they are not currently invited to the playoffs.

[foghorn]

Only the purists on this board refer to D-I as D-IA and D-IAA;to the rest of the world it's either D-I or D-IAA. I think a name change is more than welcome.:nod:

[*****]

Only the purists on this board refer to D-I as D-IA and D-IAA;to the rest of the world it's either D-I or D-IAA. I think a name change is more than welcome.:nod:That's not correct. The NCAA refers to the classifications correctly for football (I-A and I-AA) and the media usually does as well. :p

[*****]

Seems to me that there are really three classes

1-a
1-aa
1-aa non scholarship

So Ralph, in your opinion, what happens to the I-aa non-scholarship in this scenario, since they are not currently invited to the playoffs.There you go again. You know that every team in I-AA is playoff eligible. I think the classifications will change for football from I-A/I-AA/I-AAA to D-I BCS*/D-I PCS*/D-I. All other sports will continue to be simple D-I.

*Whatever they to call it.

[Cap'n Cat]

Just the opinion of an old fat Cat -

I welcome the change. We always hear from various college football pundits about the "stigma" attached to I-AA, especially in recruiting. Don't remember the wonk who said this a few years ago, but it was commented that recruits will ALWAYS opt for a I-A school, no matter how *****ty, over a I-AA just because it's "bigtime" college football. I think it was I-AA Fan. I think he's completely correct, but he's onto (or on) something.

With this change, Cap'n Cat feels that, now, there will be a great equalization among hundreds of football-sponsoring institutions. Your USC's and Notre Dames and Michigans and Ohio States and Floridas are going to do what they want, but the inverted u will be much wider at the median.

No longer will there be (after it shakes out) a "glamour" reason for a recruit to choose Kent State over Youngstown or Northern Illinois over Northern Iowa or Ball State over Eastern Illinois or Connecticut over Delaware or South Florida over Georgia Southern, etc, etc, etc. Nor, will recruiters from Buffalo and Rutgers and Memphis and Central Michigan and Toledo and Utah State and Tulsa and SMU be able to hang that I-AA thing over our heads in recruiting.

We'll see how it all boils down, but......

Just my opinion. Nothing else............


Cap'n Cat hath spoken.
Long live Cap'n Cat...

[Stang Fever]

There you go again. You know that every team in I-AA is playoff eligible. I think the classifications will change for football from I-A/I-AA/I-AAA to D-I BCS*/D-I PCS*/D-I. All other sports will continue to be simple D-I.

*Whatever they to call it.

Ralph i have seen it before on this board...but what the hell is I-AAA

can you please tell me a team that is in that classification...thanks

[colgate13]

Ralph i have seen it before on this board...but what the hell is I-AAA

can you please tell me a team that is in that classification...thanks

I-AAA is the teams that sponsor Division I sports but don't have football. I think.

[SochorField]

That is correct.

[Stang Fever]

I-AAA is the teams that sponsor Division I sports but don't have football. I think.

So Pepperdine University.....Gonzaga......Long Beach St.....etc

would all be considered I-AAA

[Go...gate]

I was kinda getting used to I-AA as the level of college football where it was still largely student-athletes who were going on to the real world after graduation, not pumped-up NFL wannabees.

[Retro]

1. Change is inevitable..

2. You can either accept it and move forward or whine and get left behind..

3. As in the military, Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.

4. If the name does become the Playoff Championship Series, then i want to see it consist of only teams that want to participate in the playoffs every year.. That includes possible I-A dropdowns, I-AA non-scholy's and I-AA's that currently don't participate, but may decide to upon the change...

5. The name change is oppotunity for a fresh start. For schools, Media and especially the NCAA who needs to do some heavy TV promotions for it.

6. Ralph, go ahead and register the domain name PCSfootball.com or whatever the best name would be for it..

:twocents:

[*****]

So Pepperdine University.....Gonzaga......Long Beach St.....etc
would all be considered I-AAAIn regards to football only, yes. We all know that every other sport is simply D-I.

[*****]

... If the name does become the Playoff Championship Series, then i want to see it consist of only teams that want to participate in the playoffs every year...Well, the playoff championship will only include teams in that playoff so...

The idea is that all teams will be called D-I. The difference will be those that are PCS eligible (if that is the name) and those that are BCS eligible.

Should AGS become a site for only PCS eligible teams?

[blukeys]

Should AGS become a site for only PCS eligible teams?

The short answer is YES!

It appears to me the change is cosmetic and is a sop by the NCAA to attempt to deal with the miserly support the NCAA gives to I-AA. In 1978 when I-AA was first formed the D-2 championship was played on ABC!!! This was due to the NCAA's bargaining power which they lost in a court decision.

Nonetheless the NCAA has done no fighting for I-AA which was a promise given to many of the conferences that chose to be I-AA or were relegated to I-AA despite their objections.

I tend to agree with Ralph on most of the change issues. I really don't see much benefit to the name change.

However, if a concerted effort is made to emphasize that there are D-I teams comperting for a National Championship in a playoff system then maybe some progress will be made. Our number one advantage is a playoff system. People understand it and know that it is fair. (Especially during March Madness)

Perhaps, the Sunbelt teams will reconsider their I-A folly as well as some former Big Sky teams. (Nevada comes to mind).

I don't think a name change alone will cause anyone to change. A concerted education and PR effort would be necessary as well. I hope that the changes and the effort help I-AA. I think the chances of positive change are about 50-50.

[eaglesrthe1]

Only the purists on this board refer to D-I as D-IA and D-IAA;to the rest of the world it's either D-I or D-IAA. I think a name change is more than welcome.:nod:


It won't amount to a hill of beans. A rose by any other name....

[*****]

It won't amount to a hill of beans. A rose by any other name....Is beautiful... not a dandelion I-A weed. xlolx

[henfan]

Should AGS become a site for only PCS eligible teams?

I think so, though it may be many years before we see any current I-A schools participate in the PCS. IMO, the name change will be largely cosmetic until the I-AA 'stigma' is erased from the minds of current I-A administrators. That and financial realities may make the level of play more attractice. We'll see.

[DUPFLFan]

Ralph,

I'm trying to ask an honest question here....Please don't give me the "there you go again" attitude...

You said that "I think the classifications will change for football from I-A/I-AA/I-AAA to D-I BCS*/D-I PCS*/D-I."

In your opinion, in this scenario, will the PFL and other non-scholarship teams be categorized as D-1 PCS or as D-1?

If they are categorized as D-1 PCS then what football teams are in D-1?

[colgate13]

Ralph,

I'm trying to ask an honest question here....Please don't give me the "there you go again" attitude...

You said that "I think the classifications will change for football from I-A/I-AA/I-AAA to D-I BCS*/D-I PCS*/D-I."

In your opinion, in this scenario, will the PFL and other non-scholarship teams be categorized as D-1 PCS or as D-1?

If they are categorized as D-1 PCS then what football teams are in D-1?

Not to speak for the man himself, but PFL/true non-scholarship will be PCS. D-I will be what he referred to as I-AAA - or schools that don't offer football and therefore don't need a BCS/PCS distinction.

Question: when Sprint (or some group called ISO I guess (http://www.iso.com/privacy_trademarks_use/iso_trademarks.html)) sues the NCAA for using the trademark PCS, what will we call ourselves then? Remember, the WWF sued the other WWF and they had to become the WWE... :D

[walliver]

Not to speak for the man himself, but PFL/true non-scholarship will be PCS. D-I will be what he referred to as I-AAA - or schools that don't offer football and therefore don't need a BCS/PCS distinction.

Question: when Sprint (or some group called ISO I guess (http://www.iso.com/privacy_trademarks_use/iso_trademarks.html)) sues the NCAA for using the trademark PCS, what will we call ourselves then? Remember, the WWF sued the other WWF and they had to become the WWE... :D

We'll be the DFKAIAA (Division formerly known as I-AA)

[*****]

Ralph,
I'm trying to ask an honest question here....Please don't give me the "there you go again" attitude...
You said that "I think the classifications will change for football from I-A/I-AA/I-AAA to D-I BCS*/D-I PCS*/D-I."
In your opinion, in this scenario, will the PFL and other non-scholarship teams be categorized as D-1 PCS or as D-1?
If they are categorized as D-1 PCS then what football teams are in D-1?Just kidding you there Du... Why wouldn't the PFL be PCS? Probably though, since I was referring to I-AAA just being D-I, I-AAA will have a designator too... like D-I NONE. xlolx

[DUPFLFan]

I thought that this would give the NCAA the ability to separate scholarship and non-scholarship teams into different divisions while retaining Division 1 status....

[*****]

I thought that this would give the NCAA the ability to separate scholarship and non-scholarship teams into different divisions while retaining Division 1 status....There will be an interview I did with former I-AA Football Committee person Jim Miller (Richmond AD) on I-AA WAVES this coming Tuesday where I asked him if that had ever been considered. Check it out.

[Go...gate]

Agree that if there is a "PCS", it should be limited to those teams that participate in or make themselves eligible for, the play-offs. That means Ivy, SWAC, and others should be re-designated. Some on the Ivy board think they should again seek 1-A ("BCS") classification; perhaps the SWAC teams also feel this way.

[*****]

only a max of five SWAC teams make themselves ineligible (half the conf)

Easy scenario for the SWAC to get a playoff team:
Alcorn State goes 11-0 (ranked #3 in the country) and wins the SWAC EAST - goes to the SWAC Champ Game
Jackson State finishes second with a 10-1 record (only narrow loss to Alcorn)

Jackson State would then have a pretty good shot at an at-large playoff bid.

[pete4256]

Agree that if there is a "PCS", it should be limited to those teams that participate in or make themselves eligible for, the play-offs. That means Ivy, SWAC, and others should be re-designated. Some on the Ivy board think they should again seek 1-A ("BCS") classification; perhaps the SWAC teams also feel this way.

I take all this to mean that there will be no classification difference between (for instance) the SEC and the Socon.

The two Championship series will be two different invitation events, like the NCAA tourney and the NIT, only with different elibigility requirements.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't really see how, say, GSU would be anything other than a D-I school, eligible for the PCS because of conference affiliation and funding.

Again, that's pure speculation based on the rumors.

Is that the gist of the possible changes?

[*****]

Yeah, same as now but a different name.

[Mr. Tiger]

Agree that if there is a "PCS", it should be limited to those teams that participate in or make themselves eligible for, the play-offs. That means Ivy, SWAC, and others should be re-designated. Some on the Ivy board think they should again seek 1-A ("BCS") classification; perhaps the SWAC teams also feel this way.

I disagree. As Ralph said some SWAC schools are open to an at-large playoff bid and there are Jackson State fans that would like to receive a playoff bid in the future.

[DetroitFlyer]

That Richmond interview should be very interesting.... Although I have never been told directly, I have heard strong hints that Richmond actually resents thier football success on some levels, because it has kept them from being able to become a non-scholarship program. It would seem as though Richmond is a classic example of the struggles of a smaller 1-AA, full scholarship program. The program is ultimately a money pit, with no real solution available. I have a feeling that the Richmond guy will come out as a supporter of the non-scholarship option in 1-AA....

[DUPFLFan]

Ralph - I'll check it out (via download) I won't be able to be at my computer on Tuesday evening...
Thanks

[Bobcat94]

What happens when the "BCS" goes to a playoff????

If this happens it will be done on a conference level. Conferences will agree to be BCS or "whatever".

[*****]

What happens when the "BCS" goes to a playoff????
If this happens it will be done on a conference level. Conferences will agree to be BCS or "whatever".Schools run the ship in the NCAA.