Bonds exposed

[UNHWildCats]

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/tx_truth3.jpg

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html

[bandl]

How many different ways can one person take flaxseed oil??? :rolleyes:

"Depending on the substance, Bonds used the drugs in virtually every conceivable form: injecting himself with a syringe or being injected by his trainer, Greg Anderson, swallowing pills, placing drops of liquid under his tongue, and, in the case of BALCO's notorious testosterone-based cream, applying it topically."

[dbackjon]

Disgusting - Baseball should ban him, and strip any titles he or the Giants won.

The man is, and always has been a fraud.

[JoltinJoe]

I can't believe he's been cheating. :nono:

[UNHWildCats]

My single season homerun king is still Roger Maris, and im a Red Sox fan so it hurts me to say that.

[TexasTerror]

Well, now MLB needs to make a big decision to uphold the game and it's history...

[AppGuy04]

Well, now MLB needs to make a big decision to uphold the game and it's history...

that will never happen, they will use the arguement that they can't prove WHEN he started using

[Gil Dobie]

It's not easy to use "integrity" and Bud Selig in the same sentence. :eyebrow:

[bandl]

It's not easy to use "integrity" and Bud Selig in the same sentence. :eyebrow:

Sure it is....with two words. HAS and NO.

[Gil Dobie]

Sure it is....with two words. HAS and NO.

I stand corrected :D :nod: xlolx

[dirtbag]

How many different ways can one person take flaxseed oil??? :rolleyes:



Hey, my wife started taking flaxseed oil a couple of months ago. I'm expecting a big year from her in co-ed softball this summer.

[bandl]

Hey, my wife started taking flaxseed oil a couple of months ago. I'm expecting a big year from her in co-ed softball this summer.

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

I bet that Bonds has even tried flaxseed oil suppositories...

[Go...gate]

Can't think of a nicer guy to have his records stripped than Barry.

[dirtbag]

Can't think of a nicer guy to have his records stripped than Barry.

OJ Simpson. Ty Cobb. Pete Rose. Joe Jackson.

[bandl]

OJ Simpson. Ty Cobb. Pete Rose. Joe Jackson.

Quick thoughts...open for discussion and correction if I missed something!!

OJ...as far as I know he didn't do anything during his playing days, did he? Yeah, we all know what happened after his playing days, but that doesn't mean we should strip away his records.

Ty Cobb...did he do anything illegal during his playing days, other than hate on just about everyone?

Pete Rose...Did he bet during his playing days? Or was that during his managerial days? If it was during his playing days...yep, yank his records. If not...I think being held out of the HOF is punishment enough, even though everyone knows who holds the record for most career hits.

Joe Jackson...definitely deserves the asterisk next to his name for trying to pull the World Series. I don't think that's on the same line as doing steroids for years and years...but I'm not steadfast on that stance and could be convinced either way. I will say that neither of the two scenarios is admirable and both deserve punishment!!!

[saint0917]

Joe Jackson...definitely deserves the asterisk next to his name for trying to pull the World Series.

Why?? What did Jackson do to deserve an asterisk.:confused: He had nothing to do with the fix.

[bandl]

Why?? What did Jackson do to deserve an asterisk.:confused: He had nothing to do with the fix.

definitely deserves the asterisk next to his name for trying to pull the World Series.

If it pleases you...change 'the asterisk' to 'an asterisk'

[dirtbag]

Quick thoughts...open for discussion and correction if I missed something!!



The original comment was "Can't think of a nicer guy to have his records stripped than Barry." I didn't take the "records stripped" part of it literally. Realistically, I don't think there's any way MLB can do that. For a good portion of the time Bonds was using, MLB didn't even have a steroid policy, so while he may have been breaking laws in obtaining and using steroids, he wasn't violating MLB policy. Since MLB has instituted policy and testing, Bonds has been tested each year and tested clean. So, I don't see how they can strip his records if he hasn't been found to have violated a rule.

I was more commenting on the "nicer guy" part.

OJ? Killed two people.

Cobb? Despicable man full of hatred and racism. http://wso.williams.edu/~jkossuth/cobb/race.htm

Rose? Broke the game's most important rule, but the bigger offense was that he spent over a decade lying about it, denying obvious evidence, and (most important to me) continuously slandered the people involved in the investigation, including the deceased Bart Giamatti. And the way he has handled his "confession" showed what type of heart he has. Also, given that one of his best friends and housemates was a convicted steroid dealer, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Rose used steroids, too.

Jackson? Like Bonds, he cheated, but while Bonds was cheating to make himself better, Jackson cheated to make himself rich.

Bonds? His "crimes" are that he has spent the majority of his career being a prick to sportswriters, and has spent the past few years using performance enhancing-drugs. I don't hold the first offense against him because frankly, most sportswriters seem to be lazy morons. I also remember his dad, and remember that the press didn't treat him that well either. And while using illegal drugs is bad, he's at least trying to make himself a better player. I'd be more indignant if he were a coke fiend or a heroin junkie whose use caused his performance to drop after he signed a long-term contract.

[saint0917]

definitely deserves the asterisk next to his name for trying to pull the World Series.

If it pleases you...change 'the asterisk' to 'an asterisk'


Jackson? Like Bonds, he cheated, but while Bonds was cheating to make himself better, Jackson cheated to make himself rich.


And your proof is where? I think he knew about the fix, but I don't think he was in on it.

Joe Jackson

I went out and played my heart out against Cincinnati. I set a record that still stands for the most hits in a Series, though it has been tied, I think. I made 13 hits, but after all the trouble came out they took one away from me. Maurice Rath went over in the hole and knocked down a hot grounder, but he couldn't make a throw on it. They scored it a hit then, but changed it later.
I led both teams in hitting with .375. I hit the only home run of the Series, off Hod Eller in the last game. I came all the way home from first on a single and scored the winning run in that 5-4 game. I handled 30 balls in the outfield and never made an error or allowed a man to take an extra base. I threw out five men at home and could have had three others, if bad cutoffs hadn't been made. One of them was in the second game Eddie Cicotte lost, when he made two errors in one inning. One of the errors was on a throw I made trying to cut off a run. He deflected the ball to the grandstand and the run came in.

[dirtbag]

Why?? What did Jackson do to deserve an asterisk.:confused: He had nothing to do with the fix.

Yeah, other than telling the grand jury that he helped fix games 1, 2, and 4.

Frommer's book has this quoted as part of his testimony:

"When a Cincinnati player would bat a ball out into my territory, I'd muff it if I could. But if it would look too much like crooked work to do that, I'd be slow and would make a throw to the infield that would be too short. My work netted the Cincinnati team several runs
that they would never have made had I been playing on the square. I helped throw games by muffing hard chances in the outfield or by throwing slowly to the infield."

[saint0917]

And while using illegal drugs is bad, he's at least trying to make himself a better player.

If I was taking illegal drugs I could have been a better player too. :nod: That has to to be the dumbest statement I've ever heard. xlolx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx

[bandl]

The original comment was "Can't think of a nicer guy to have his records stripped than Barry." I didn't take the "records stripped" part of it literally. Realistically, I don't think there's any way MLB can do that. For a good portion of the time Bonds was using, MLB didn't even have a steroid policy, so while he may have been breaking laws in obtaining and using steroids, he wasn't violating MLB policy. Since MLB has instituted policy and testing, Bonds has been tested each year and tested clean. So, I don't see how they can strip his records if he hasn't been found to have violated a rule.

I was more commenting on the "nicer guy" part.

OJ? Killed two people.

Cobb? Despicable man full of hatred and racism. http://wso.williams.edu/~jkossuth/cobb/race.htm

Rose? Broke the game's most important rule, but the bigger offense was that he spent over a decade lying about it, denying obvious evidence, and (most important to me) continuously slandered the people involved in the investigation, including the deceased Bart Giamatti. And the way he has handled his "confession" showed what type of heart he has. Also, given that one of his best friends and housemates was a convicted steroid dealer, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Rose used steroids, too.

Jackson? Like Bonds, he cheated, but while Bonds was cheating to make himself better, Jackson cheated to make himself rich.

Bonds? His "crimes" are that he has spent the majority of his career being a prick to sportswriters, and has spent the past few years using performance enhancing-drugs. I don't hold the first offense against him because frankly, most sportswriters seem to be lazy morons. I also remember his dad, and remember that the press didn't treat him that well either. And while using illegal drugs is bad, he's at least trying to make himself a better player. I'd be more indignant if he were a coke fiend or a heroin junkie whose use caused his performance to drop after he signed a long-term contract.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the on-field play that matters. Cheating is cheating, whether that be drugs or gambling or fixing a game. After their playing/managing days doesn't matter in my book. Being a dick (Ty) doesn't matter to me if he didn't cheat. I'm not defending his character, I know what kind of person he was. What OJ did after his playing days was despicable, but doesn't deny he was a great player. But if we're going to crucify players for what they did after their playing days, why aren't we bashing Kirby Puckett??

[dirtbag]

As far as I'm concerned, it's the on-field play that matters. Cheating is cheating, whether that be drugs or gambling or fixing a game.

So Gaylord Perry doctoring a baseball is as bad in your book as Joe Jackson throwing the WS?


After their playing/managing days doesn't matter in my book. Being a dick (Ty) doesn't matter to me if he didn't cheat.

Again, the orginal quote was "can't think of a nicer guy..." In my book, I think guys who cheat trying to win baseball games are nicer than racists, murderers, frauds, etc.


But if we're going to crucify players for what they did after their playing days, why aren't we bashing Kirby Puckett??

I did that a little in another thread, but tried not to be a disrespectful prick about it.

[dirtbag]

If I was taking illegal drugs I could have been a better player too. :nod: That has to to be the dumbest statement I've ever heard. xlolx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx

Nah, earlier today somebody said that using a clear liquid meant that you were using steroids. :p

[saint0917]

Yeah, other than telling the grand jury that he helped fix games 1, 2, and 4.

Frommer's book has this quoted as part of his testimony:

"When a Cincinnati player would bat a ball out into my territory, I'd muff it if I could. But if it would look too much like crooked work to do that, I'd be slow and would make a throw to the infield that would be too short. My work netted the Cincinnati team several runs
that they would never have made had I been playing on the square. I helped throw games by muffing hard chances in the outfield or by throwing slowly to the infield."

Sounds like The book of fiction.

Joe Jackson's 1920 Grand Jury Testimony

Q: did you see any fake plays made by yourself or anybody on that gamee, that would help throw the game?

Joe: Only the wildness of Cicotte

Q: What was that?

Joe: Hitting the batter, that is the only thing that told me they were going through with it.

Q: Did you make any intentional errors that day?

Joe: No, Sir, Not durning the Whole series.

Q: Did you bat to win?

Joe: Yes

I have the Joe's Testimony right in front of me and NO WHERE does it say any of that crap. But I will re-read it, maybe I missed it, but I don't think so.

[saint0917]

Nah, earlier today somebody said that using a clear liquid meant that you were using steroids. :p

What do you think it was? Body Lotion. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[UNHWildCats]

Joe Jackson...definitely deserves the asterisk next to his name for trying to pull the World Series. I don't think that's on the same line as doing steroids for years and years...but I'm not steadfast on that stance and could be convinced either way. I will say that neither of the two scenarios is admirable and both deserve punishment!!!

Joe Jackson took the money yes, but did nothing to cost the White Sox the world series, made no errors, led all players in hitting and was the only player from either team to hit a homerun.

Joe Jackson belongs in the HOF

[dirtbag]

I have the Joe's Testimony right in front of me and NO WHERE does it say any of that crap. But I will re-read it, maybe I missed it, but I don't think so.

It's referenced pretty extensively on other message boards:

http://snipurl.com/naou

[UNHWildCats]

As far as I'm concerned, it's the on-field play that matters. Cheating is cheating, whether that be drugs or gambling or fixing a game. After their playing/managing days doesn't matter in my book. Being a dick (Ty) doesn't matter to me if he didn't cheat. I'm not defending his character, I know what kind of person he was. What OJ did after his playing days was despicable, but doesn't deny he was a great player. But if we're going to crucify players for what they did after their playing days, why aren't we bashing Kirby Puckett??

I bashed Kirby this morning

"Another victim of steroids"

[dirtbag]

Joe Jackson took the money yes, but did nothing to cost the White Sox the world series, made no errors, led all players in hitting and was the only player from either team to hit a homerun.


That's been addressed over and over, Kinsella: http://espn.go.com/classic/s/2001/0730/1232950.html

[saint0917]

Joe Jackson took the money yes, but did nothing to cost the White Sox the world series, made no errors, led all players in hitting and was the only player from either team to hit a homerun.

Joe Jackson belongs in the HOF

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[saint0917]

Frommer's book has this quoted as part of his testimony:

"When a Cincinnati player would bat a ball out into my territory, I'd muff it if I could. But if it would look too much like crooked work to do that, I'd be slow and would make a throw to the infield that would be too short. My work netted the Cincinnati team several runs
that they would never have made had I been playing on the square. I helped throw games by muffing hard chances in the outfield or by throwing slowly to the infield."

I just went through the whole Grand Jury Testimony again and no where does it say any of that. But I will give you an "A" for effort ;) It looks like "Frommer's Book" is a book of fiction. ;) Keep trying maybe by the end of the year you'll show me some facts that Jackson was in on the fix. But we both know that wont happen. Like I said, I think he knew about it, but wasn't in on it.

[HiHiYikas]

Barry's just one of hundreds of people who used MLB's virtually non-existent steroids regulations to get ahead. He didn’t do anything MLB didn’t want him and all the others to do in the interest of revenue. He just happened to get farther ahead than most, because he was already one of the best ever before he started using.

It's going to be tough to fairly and thoroughly assign all the asterisks that need to be assigned to this era. Everybody’s a suspect, especially the ones who get bigger and better in their late 30’s to early 40’s.

[Gil Dobie]

.... And while using illegal drugs is bad, he's at least trying to make himself a better player.

B as in S as in BS! : smh :

In world class track and field it's called cheating, and cheaters get suspended and their records erased.

[dbackjon]

B as in S as in BS! : smh :

In world class track and field it's called cheating, and cheaters get suspended and their records erased.

Agreed 100%

[saint0917]

B as in S as in BS! : smh :

In world class track and field it's called cheating, and cheaters get suspended and their records erased.

Agree :bow: :bow: But with ditrbags logic if you take illegal drugs to make yourself better it's not really cheating. xidiotx xidiotx

[dirtbag]

Agree :bow: :bow: But with ditrbags logic if you take illegal drugs to make yourself better it's not really cheating. xidiotx xidiotx

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

[bandl]

So Gaylord Perry doctoring a baseball is as bad in your book as Joe Jackson throwing the WS?



Again, the orginal quote was "can't think of a nicer guy..." In my book, I think guys who cheat trying to win baseball games are nicer than racists, murderers, frauds, etc.



I did that a little in another thread, but tried not to be a disrespectful prick about it.
I'm not disagreeing with you...I think we're both trying to say that none of the players mentioned are very admirable for one reason or another! Some players are just bigger douchebags than others.

[HIU 93]

Quick thoughts...open for discussion and correction if I missed something!!



Ty Cobb...did he do anything illegal during his playing days, other than hate on just about everyone?



Only beat his wife so bad his kids wouldn't attend his funeral. Also, there was the little thing where he killed two people. Oh yeah, and his membership in the Klan. Other than that, he did nothing.

[HIU 93]

Let's say for argument's sake that Bonds took steroids. Is that a good thing? No. It's very bad. It's very bad for his health, HIS HEALTH. It doesn't affect you, your health, or your families health. It doesn't affect the way you live your life. BUT, everyone seems to be ignoring the one thing in this issue that could affect every American. SOMEONE LEAKED GRAND JURY TESTIMONY! Maybe it is just me, but the eroding of one of our most basic legal rights is more disturbing than one man who may or may not have taken steroids.

[Bub]

Sorry, the I'm guilty, but no one was suppose to know defense doesn't work. Besides steroids are illegal and we're talking sports, where the rules of the games have to be followed. You don't follow them, you're busted. In my view Sosa, Macguire, and all the other steroid boys are just as guilty as Bonds. Shat, I'm sure just by looking at some of these mopes we could agree on several other members of the steroid boys club-here's two in my view, Kevin Brown & Kyle Farnsworth pitchers for the Yanks. Ty Cobbs was an Azz*ole, a racist and a wife beater but we're talking about cheaters.

[UNHWildCats]

Let's say for argument's sake that Bonds took steroids. Is that a good thing? No. It's very bad. It's very bad for his health, HIS HEALTH. It doesn't affect you, your health, or your families health. It doesn't affect the way you live your life. BUT, everyone seems to be ignoring the one thing in this issue that could affect every American. SOMEONE LEAKED GRAND JURY TESTIMONY! Maybe it is just me, but the eroding of one of our most basic legal rights is more disturbing than one man who may or may not have taken steroids.


It effects baseball fans, it effects the history of the game that dates back over 100 years. This isnt just about him harming his body, its about him putting a blackmark on an industry.

[UNHWildCats]

Sorry, the I'm guilty, but no one was suppose to know defense doesn't work. Besides steroids are illegal and we're talking sports, where the rules of the games have to be followed. You don't follow them, you're busted. In my view Sosa, Macguire, and all the other steroid boys are just as guilty as Bonds. Shat, I'm sure just by looking at some of these mopes we could agree on several other members of the steroid boys club-here's two in my view, Kevin Brown & Kyle Farnsworth pitchers for the Yanks. Ty Cobbs was an Azz*ole, a racist and a wife beater but we're talking about cheaters.

Dont forget, Giambi, Sheffield, Lawton (played for yanks last year)

[GeauxLions94]

Only beat his wife so bad his kids wouldn't attend his funeral. Also, there was the little thing where he killed two people. Oh yeah, and his membership in the Klan. Other than that, he did nothing.

Yep :nod: That makes him (though portrayed nicely by Tommy Lee Jones in "Cobb") a creep in my book

[Ronbo]

You can't really do anything about it. Football players have been cheating since the 60's, hundreds of them. Are we going to strip all NFL teams of their records and titles? The few in Baseball that have been caught are just the tip of the iceberg. There are many that haven't been caught. Now what? There is really nothing they can do in Pro sports except go to a really tough testing procedure from now on. Anything that has happened prior to now is not punishable because there were no rules or laws in place. It's cheating yes, but it is more widespread than any of us know and you can't just punish a couple guys for it when there was really no rules against it in place at the time.

Another thing is that Bonds has never admitted wrong doing and he has never tested positive so there is no proof and there is no admission. Just some hearsay by guys wanting to sell books. Nothing will happen to Bonds, there is no proof.

[bandl]

Another thing is that Bonds has never admitted wrong doing and he has never tested positive so there is no proof and there is no admission. Just some hearsay by guys wanting to sell books. Nothing will happen to Bonds, there is no proof.

There's no way for any of us to know, but this remains to be seen...

"I'm not going to confirm or deny that we are conducting an investigation," U.S. attorney spokesman Luke McCauley said when asked whether his office was pursuing perjury charges against Bonds."

[D1B]

Nothing will happen to Bonds, there is no proof.

Maybe. The courts may drop it. Baseball may gloss over it. He'll be crucified by the fans and public opinion. Which is worse?

[Ronbo]

You are innocent until proven guilty in this Country. D1B you are not being a good Democrat if you abandon that right. You cannot be convicted on hearsay. Where is the positive test, where is the witness, where is the admission of guilt?

[*****]

Let's say for argument's sake that Bonds took steroids... one man who may or may not have taken steroids.Sorry, it's over for Bonds.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html

There are witnesses (more than 200 people).

There is legal testimony (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/03/06/growth.doc0313/).

Denial is futile.

It's over for Bonds.

Cheater.

[Ronbo]

If you take that attitude then you condemn the NFL because 100's of players over the years have taken steroids in the NFL. The NFL is a farce and a bunch of cheaters. Sorry double standard. It's OK in football and not baseball. It makes all Pro sports a joke. You are not just condemning one man in baseball, the NFL is now null and void. They are just cheaters.

Kobe Bryant is a rapist, that's worst than this. You guys are a bunch of holier than thou's. How about the linebacker for the Ravens, didn't he have somebody killed. Jeeze the guy took some steriods and there wasn't a even a professional baseball rule against it at the time.

[*****]

Cheaters are cheaters. The goods have been served on Bonds.

"It's OK in football and not baseball." Who agrees with that??

[Gil Dobie]

If you take that attitude then you condemn the NFL because 100's of players over the years have taken steroids in the NFL. The NFL is a farce and a bunch of cheaters. Sorry double standard. It's OK in football and not baseball. It makes all Pro sports a joke. You are not just condemning one man in baseball, the NFL is now null and void. They are just cheaters.

Kobe Bryant is a rapist, that's worst than this. You guys are a bunch of holier than thou's. How about the linebacker for the Ravens, didn't he have somebody killed. Jeeze the guy took some steriods and there wasn't a even a professional baseball rule against it at the time.

Ralph is right, cheaters are cheaters. The NFL is a farce. Did Kobe's rape and Lewis' activity help them break a record, give them a salary increase, advertising contracts etc.

Steroids have been on the banned substance list for Major League baseball for a while now. During Mark McGwire's 1998 season steroids were on the banned substance list, while andro was not. Major League baseball is pretty anal when enforcing it's policy.

[HIU 93]

It effects baseball fans, it effects the history of the game that dates back over 100 years. This isnt just about him harming his body, its about him putting a blackmark on an industry.

How stupid of me? Yes, protecting the baseball industry is so much more important than protecting our legal rights.: smh : :rolleyes:

[HIU 93]

Denial is futile.

It's over for Bonds.

Cheater.

Once again, Ralph, you overlooked the real point and took your holier than thou sports stance. I don't care what Bonds took. What i do care is that GRAND JURY TESTIMONY WAS LEAKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess I am truly the only one who can see the real crime here- at least the one that has the most overarching effect on ALL OF US.

[Gil Dobie]

Another thing is that Bonds has never admitted wrong doing and he has never tested positive so there is no proof and there is no admission. Just some hearsay by guys wanting to sell books. Nothing will happen to Bonds, there is no proof.

Interesting Witness........
"Nothing was between me and Greg," Sheffield testified. "Barry pretty much controlled everything. ... It was basically Barry (saying), 'Trust me. Do what I do.'

"... I know I've seen Greg give Barry the same thing I was taking. I didn't see him taking those red beans, but I seen him taking this (clear) and this cream here."

[Gil Dobie]

Once again, Ralph, you overlooked the real point and took your holier than thou sports stance. I don't care what Bonds took. What i do care is that GRAND JURY TESTIMONY WAS LEAKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess I am truly the only one who can see the real crime here- at least the one that has the most overarching effect on ALL OF US.

What about these sources?

Memos detailing the statements of Conte, BALCO vice president James Valente and Bonds's trainer, Greg Anderson, to IRS special agent Jeff Novitzky were sealed when we first reviewed them, but they have since become part of the public file in the BALCO case. The BALCO search warrant affidavits and other court records provided significant information.

[*****]

Once again, Ralph, you overlooked the real point and took your holier than thou sports stance. I don't care what Bonds took. What i do care is that GRAND JURY TESTIMONY WAS LEAKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess I am truly the only one who can see the real crime here- at least the one that has the most overarching effect on ALL OF US.The Grand Jury leak is wrong and old news. There is tons of other evidence and the gig is up on Bonds. Sad, really. No one likes to see this sort of thing but since it happened it has to be dealt with, not ignored. Bonds was not given immunity to lie to the Grand Jury.

[dirtbag]

Interesting Witness........
"Nothing was between me and Greg," Sheffield testified. "Barry pretty much controlled everything. ... It was basically Barry (saying), 'Trust me. Do what I do.'

"... I know I've seen Greg give Barry the same thing I was taking. I didn't see him taking those red beans, but I seen him taking this (clear) and this cream here."

Brings up an interesting point. Sheffield is the only player (current or formal) who has publicly called out Bonds, and he seemingly did so only to shift the blame of his own steroid use.

We've been told for years that Bonds is a world-class jerk who is hated by all. Why hasn't a single former teammate of Bonds pointed the finger at him?

[Bub]

Because no one likes a rat.

[UNHWildCats]

Barry's just one of hundreds of people who used MLB's virtually non-existent steroids regulations to get ahead. He didn’t do anything MLB didn’t want him and all the others to do in the interest of revenue. He just happened to get farther ahead than most, because he was already one of the best ever before he started using.

It's going to be tough to fairly and thoroughly assign all the asterisks that need to be assigned to this era. Everybody’s a suspect, especially the ones who get bigger and better in their late 30’s to early 40’s.

Steroids have been illegal in baseball since atleast 1991, 7 years earlier then Bonds first took them.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

[bandl]

We've been told for years that Bonds is a world-class jerk who is hated by all. Why hasn't a single former teammate of Bonds pointed the finger at him?

He's paid them off?? No, seriously...I can't back that up. But wouldn't that be a hell of a thing. Maybe they have all have a part in it?? I can't back that up either. It's an interesting point you bring up though.

[dirtbag]

Steroids have been on the banned substance list for Major League baseball for a while now. During Mark McGwire's 1998 season steroids were on the banned substance list, while andro was not.

This is incorrect. MLB did not have steroids on the banned substances list until 2002.

[dirtbag]

Steroids have been illegal in baseball since atleast 1991, 7 years earlier then Bonds first took them.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

Read that carefully -- steroids were not illegal under that policy, only steroids obtained without a physician's prescription.

[UNHWildCats]

Read that carefully -- steroids were not illegal under that policy, only steroids obtained without a physician's prescription.

The MLB memo says...

"The basic drug policy for the game is simply stated: There is no place for illegal drug in Baseball."

now lets look at federal law...

The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 became law on November 29, 1990, when former President Bush signed the Omnibus Crime Control Bill. The law applies in every Federal court across the country. It places steroids in the same legal class - Schedule III -- as barbiturates, LSD precursors, veterinary tranquilizers like ketamine and narcotic painkillers like Vicodin. Simple possession of any Schedule III substance is a federal offense punishable by up to one year in prison and/or a minimum fine of $1,000. Simple possession by a person with a previous conviction for certain offenses, including any drug or narcotic crimes, must get imprisonment of at least 15 days and up to two years, and a minimum fine of $2,500.

Steroids has been federally illegal since 1990, and in 1991 MLB said no illegal drug in baseball.

[AppGuy04]

So does Bonds play this year, or will he fake another injury and take the high road?

[saint0917]

So does Bonds play this year, or will he fake another injury and take the high road?

There is no high road for Bonds, he should just put he's tail between his legs and leave, he's an embarrassment to the game.

[AppGuy04]

There is no high road for Bonds, he should just put he's tail between his legs and leave, he's an embarrassment to the game.

Does he play this year or not?

[UNHWildCats]

Does he play this year or not?

he'll play because hes a selfish pr**k

[dirtbag]

The MLB memo says...

"The basic drug policy for the game is simply stated: There is no place for illegal drug in Baseball."

now lets look at federal law...

The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 became law on November 29, 1990, when former President Bush signed the Omnibus Crime Control Bill. The law applies in every Federal court across the country. It places steroids in the same legal class - Schedule III -- as barbiturates, LSD precursors, veterinary tranquilizers like ketamine and narcotic painkillers like Vicodin. Simple possession of any Schedule III substance is a federal offense punishable by up to one year in prison and/or a minimum fine of $1,000. Simple possession by a person with a previous conviction for certain offenses, including any drug or narcotic crimes, must get imprisonment of at least 15 days and up to two years, and a minimum fine of $2,500.

Steroids has been federally illegal since 1990, and in 1991 MLB said no illegal drug in baseball.

Here's the DEA's own web page:

http://www.dea.gov/concern/steroids_factsheet.html

"Anabolic steroids are synthetically produced versions of the naturally occurring male hormone testosterone. While they may be legally prescribed, illicit use far exceeds legitimate use."

Pretty sure that the DEA trumps whatever your source is.

[Gil Dobie]

This is incorrect. MLB did not have steroids on the banned substances list until 2002.

Banned Substance List 1998 (http://espn.go.com/otl/andro/day4_part1.html)

This article and others say Steroids were a banned substance in Major League Baseball and Andro was not on the banned substance list. Like I said before, enforcement was another issue that came later.

[dirtbag]

Banned Substance List 1998 (http://espn.go.com/otl/andro/day4_part1.html)

This article and others say Steroids were a banned substance in Major League Baseball and Andro was not on the banned substance list.

Mea culpa.

Upon further review, the post-2002 changes added "steroid precursors and designer steroids such as THG" to the list of banned substances.

[saint0917]

he'll play because hes a selfish pr**k

You hit the nail on the head.

[HiHiYikas]

Steroids have been illegal in baseball since atleast 1991, 7 years earlier then Bonds first took them.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1
When it comes to MLB, there is an obvious and often-welcomed gap between policy and reality.

Case in point - 1942, MLB Commissioner Kennesaw Mountain Landis states plainly that "There is no rule, formal or informal, or any understanding -- unwritten, subterranean, or sub-anything -- against the hiring of Negro players by the teams of organized baseball."

So, if the commissioner says there isn't a color barrier, and the first black major league ballplayer suited up way back in in 1884, then baseball's color barrier must have been an illusion, right?

If you want to accept baseball's previous steroid policies as anything other than feeble grasps at credibility, fine. It's pretty clear, though, that MLB never really cared about steroids use before 2002.

[Gil Dobie]

When it comes to MLB, there is an obvious and often-welcomed gap between policy and reality.

Case in point - 1942, Kennesaw Mountain Landis states plainly that "There is no rule, formal or informal, or any understanding -- unwritten, subterranean, or sub-anything -- against the hiring of Negro players by the teams of organized baseball."

So, if the commissioner says there isn't a color barrier, and the first black major league ballplayer suited up way back in in 1884, then baseball's color barrier must have been an illusion, right?

If you want to accept baseball's previous steroid policies as anything other than feeble grasps at credibility, fine. It's pretty clear, though, that MLB never really cared about steroids use before 2002.

I believe Landis like I believe Barry Bonds : smh : :rotateh:

[AppGuy04]

he got booed big time during his first Spring Training game

after the game, someone asked him about the book, and he said "Baseball or nothing"

skirting the issue, thats exactly what he's gonna do

every reporter should ask him questions about steroids until he answers it, which he won't, he'll become a hermit, if anything, the media can make him retire, that would be sweetxlolx

[UNHWildCats]

ESPN reported Barry Bonds wants to join team USA for the second round of the WBC, USA Manager Buck Martinez blew it off saying the team has no plans to alter its 30 man roster.

[dbackjon]

he got booed big time during his first Spring Training game

after the game, someone asked him about the book, and he said "Baseball or nothing"

skirting the issue, thats exactly what he's gonna do

every reporter should ask him questions about steroids until he answers it, which he won't, he'll become a hermit, if anything, the media can make him retire, that would be sweetxlolx


Uh - the book is about Baseball.....


Just go away Barry.

[HiHiYikas]

It's already been discussed ad infinitum that people have a problem with Barry's (alleged :smiley_wi) steroid use. I feel much the same way.

Still, I'm confused by the double-standard all this public outrage is revealing.

Why waste so much money on testing when, like a posted speed limit, it only catches the stupid and careless?

Why is it that we assume that there's any such thing as a level playing field in sports?

How are steroids any less natural than Tiger's lasik surgery or the Tommy John surgery that makes plenty of pitchers throw harder?

Should Pamela Anderson, whose breasts are clearly fake, have an asterisk next to her Playmate of the year Award?

Why does Al Roker get to be on the cover of a magazine for his "brave" weight-loss quest, when he "cheated" and subjected himself to serious health risks by getting gastric bypass surgery? (As a guy who went from a 265-lb couch potato to a 175-lb 3-hour marathonner in 14 months, I'd really like a good answer to that question.)

Why must we continue to fool ourselves in to thinking that athletes are role models, and that kids will ape anything they see athletes doing? How long can we continue to ignore the terrible influence of overzealous parents?

When will the President use the State of the Union Address to call out the modeling industry or Hollywood for the damage it does to the youth of America (anorexia, bullemia, nose jobs for teenage girls)?

What's the difference between steroids and Viagra?

These are all interesting questions, all brought up in the following espn.com article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060310

[bandl]

It's already been discussed ad infinitum that people have a problem with Barry's (alleged :smiley_wi) steroid use. I feel much the same way.

Still, I'm confused by the double-standard all this public outrage is revealing.

Why waste so much money on testing when, like a posted speed limit, it only catches the stupid and careless?

Why is it that we assume that there's any such thing as a level playing field in sports?

How are steroids any less natural than Tiger's lasik surgery or the Tommy John surgery that makes plenty of pitchers throw harder?

Should Pamela Anderson, whose breasts are clearly fake, have an asterisk next to her Playmate of the year Award?

Why does Al Roker get to be on the cover of a magazine for his "brave" weight-loss quest, when he "cheated" and subjected himself to serious health risks by getting gastric bypass surgery? (As a guy who went from a 265-lb couch potato to a 175-lb 3-hour marathonner in 14 months, I'd really like a good answer to that question.)

Why must we continue to fool ourselves in to thinking that athletes are role models, and that kids will ape anything they see athletes doing? How long can we continue to ignore the terrible influence of overzealous parents?

When will the President use the State of the Union Address to call out the modeling industry or Hollywood for the damage it does to the youth of America (anorexia, bullemia, nose jobs for teenage girls)?

What's the difference between steroids and Viagra?

These are all interesting questions, all brought up in the following espn.com article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060310
Simple. Steroids are illegal in baseball. Lasik, Tommy Johns surgery, big fake boobies, severe dieting (even if it's dangerous to one's health) are not illegal.

Athletes are role models, like it or not.

[*****]

... How are steroids any less natural than... What's the difference between steroids and Viagra?...There are laws against possessing, selling and using some steroids (since 1990). If you do not have a prescription than you are a criminal. If you possess or use illegal substances in sports you are a cheater (since 1991 in MLB).

http://espn.go.com/i/eticket/20051109/i/memosPOP_1991_1.jpg

[Gil Dobie]

It's already been discussed ad infinitum that people have a problem with Barry's (alleged :smiley_wi) steroid use. I feel much the same way.

Still, I'm confused by the double-standard all this public outrage is revealing.

Why waste so much money on testing when, like a posted speed limit, it only catches the stupid and careless?

Why is it that we assume that there's any such thing as a level playing field in sports?

How are steroids any less natural than Tiger's lasik surgery or the Tommy John surgery that makes plenty of pitchers throw harder?

Should Pamela Anderson, whose breasts are clearly fake, have an asterisk next to her Playmate of the year Award?

Why does Al Roker get to be on the cover of a magazine for his "brave" weight-loss quest, when he "cheated" and subjected himself to serious health risks by getting gastric bypass surgery? (As a guy who went from a 265-lb couch potato to a 175-lb 3-hour marathonner in 14 months, I'd really like a good answer to that question.)

Why must we continue to fool ourselves in to thinking that athletes are role models, and that kids will ape anything they see athletes doing? How long can we continue to ignore the terrible influence of overzealous parents?

When will the President use the State of the Union Address to call out the modeling industry or Hollywood for the damage it does to the youth of America (anorexia, bullemia, nose jobs for teenage girls)?

What's the difference between steroids and Viagra?

These are all interesting questions, all brought up in the following espn.com article:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060310

Steroids were and are on baseball's banned substance list.
There was a big outcry in golf a few year back when Casey wanted to use a cart on the PGA tour. Is lasik banned by golf? Is gasto-bypass surgery illegal? Bonds was great, could have made the Hall of Fame without steroids.

[HiHiYikas]

Simple. Steroids are illegal in baseball. Lasik, Tommy Johns surgery, big fake boobies, severe dieting (even if it's dangerous to one's health) are not illegal.

Athletes are role models, like it or not.
Clearly...

Thanks for the chorus of easy, pat answers to a set of mostly rhetorical questions...now I know how mainejeff feels.

I'm not asking about the legality of steroid use, I'm asking about the underlying concept - the motivation - what is the sentiment that created the steroids boom, is that sentiment dangerous, and and how is that sentiment present in other arenas?

Incidentally, I hope the days when fans bull-headedly insist that athletes ought to be upstanding because they are viewed as role models come to an end soon.

[bandl]

Clearly...

Thanks for the chorus of easy, pat answers to a set of mostly rhetorical questions...now I know how mainejeff feels.

I'm not asking about the legality of steroid use, I'm asking about the underlying concept - the motivation - what is the sentiment that created the steroids boom, is that sentiment dangerous, and and how is that sentiment present in other arenas?

Incidentally, I hope the days when fans bull-headedly insist that athletes ought to be upstanding because they are viewed as role models come to an end soon.

Regurgitated questions from a poorly written article deserve easy answers. Sorry, but I had already read the article before you posted it and my only thought after reading it was "What an idiot, this guy is pulling these arguments out of his ass."

[HiHiYikas]

Regurgitated questions from a poorly written article deserve easy answers. Sorry, but I had already read the article before you posted it and my only thought after reading it was "What an idiot, this guy is pulling these arguments out of his ass."
Since I have yet to hear somebody say "I hate Barry because he's a law-breaker," I'm wondering what makes his brand of cheating so much more despicable in the eyes of the public?

[*****]

Since I have yet to hear somebody say "I hate Barry because he's a law-breaker," I'm wondering what makes his brand of cheating so much more despicable in the eyes of the public?Did you miss this?
There are laws against possessing, selling and using some steroids (since 1990). If you do not have a prescription then you are a criminal. If you possess or use illegal substances in sports you are a cheater (since 1991 in MLB).Sorry, I don't hate Barry Bonds ... I hate criminals and cheaters.

The bigger the person is that gets caught and punished, the better to set a more pronounced message to our kids.

[Bub]

Besides the whole illegal vs legal, no one has tommie john surgery or lasik and then lies about it. Barry uses illegal substances which make him much more than the player he would be at his age, or any age, and rather than admit as much, lies about its use and claims he did it all on his own while he assaults the record book. At least Sosa, Macguire and Palmero had the sense to go quietly. Barry, through his macho denials coupled with his claims of victimization, brings this all on himself. rules are rules. play by them or get out.

[HiHiYikas]

Sorry, I don't hate Barry Bonds ... I hate criminals and cheaters.

The bigger the person is that gets caught and punished, the better to set a more pronounced message to our kids.
I'm with you there, at least partially. I don't think Bonds is a victim, but I also don't think he ought to take all the heat for a scandal that is bigger than he is.

In Tom Boswell's words...

...As public scrutiny and cyber vituperation rain down on Bonds, we should remember that he is just the symptom, not the cause. When sports fundamentally warp themselves out of greed, we never know until later where the long-term damage will manifest itself. When baseball's owners "took a strike" -- ousting conciliatory commissioner Fay Vincent and installing Bud Selig, then a hardliner, to do the deed -- no one dreamed that the greatest damage to the sport would come years later and in an unexpected form.

Don't you think there's a difference between the hatred for Bonds and the hatred for the sign-stealing, pennant-winning 1951 Giants, for Preacher Roe, for Norm Cash and his cork-aided 1961 batting title, for Denny McLain's grooved pitch to Mantle for homerun #535 (beating Foxx on the all-time list)?

And don't you think there's a difference between the hatred for Bonds and the hatred for criminals like Jeff Reardon, Mo Vaughan, Gates Brown, or Butch Hopson?

Clearly prominence plays its role. People don't know enough about Preacher Roe's "outlaw pitch" or Gates Brown's prison record to hate them for cheating or illegal activity. Bonds has his dirty hands inches from the holiest grail in sports. That's a good reason for public outcry.

Still a lot of the Bonds-bashing seems reactionary, shallow, or sanctimonius. Is that just the nature of bashing?

[*****]

I'm with you there, at least partially. I don't think Bonds is a victim, but I also don't think he ought to take all the heat for a scandal that is bigger than he is.... Don't you think there's a difference between the hatred for Bonds and the hatred for the sign-stealing, pennant-winning 1951 Giants, for Preacher Roe, for Norm Cash and his cork-aided 1961 batting title, for Denny McLain's grooved pitch to Mantle for homerun #535 (beating Foxx on the all-time list)?... And don't you think there's a difference between the hatred for Bonds and the hatred for criminals like Jeff Reardon, Mo Vaughan, Gates Brown, or Butch Hopson? ...Is that just the nature of bashing?Bonds and all the others are equal cheaters and criminals if they did the crime. No difference. Race doesn't matter. Circumstances don't matter. Do the crime and do the time.

In general, people don't like cheaters and getting ripped off.

If we are promised a game that is on the level and participants who follow its rules then if we get something different we get PO'd.

[Go...gate]

We are all entitled to advocate our opinions but it is very hard to swallow some of the defenses of Bonds here. I stand by my belief that he is a scumbag for brazenly trying to compromise the integirty of the game of baseball and that because of that, his records should be stripped. And I hope I see the day when it happens.

[Gil Dobie]

Since I have yet to hear somebody say "I hate Barry because he's a law-breaker," I'm wondering what makes his brand of cheating so much more despicable in the eyes of the public?

I don't hate Barry Bonds, I dislike the way he cheated to get an edge. I dislike the way othere such as McGwire, Sosa, Palmiero, Canseco, Caminitti, Giambi and others may have done the same. I dislike the way Nap Lajoie was given a bunch of singles to try and beat Ty Cobb for the batting title, Brett Favre's dive for Strahan, on and on. I don't hate these people for it, just don't and didn't want them to get away with cheating, when others that worked hard within the rules set great records and performed great feats.