LFN: What UMass' Departure Means for FCS

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/what-umass-departure-means-for-fcs.html

Attention, NEC, New Hampshire and Maine fans: you'll definitely want to read this.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I think the UNH AD pretty clearly identified what UNH wants to be, it's quoted and highlighted in the other thread. Until Albany and CCSU prove they're going to counter status, Fordham proves it will leave its arrangement with the Patriot, other Patriot schools prove they are willing to take the same path as Fordham, the Patriot demonstrates it will find an academic compromise with scholarships and/or the NEC will allow scholarships to rise to counter status, you're going to have to enlighten me how staying in the CAA is riskier.

[DFW HOYA]

I think the UNH AD pretty clearly identified what UNH wants to be, it's quoted and highlighted in the other thread. Until Albany and CCSU prove they're going to counter status, Fordham proves it will leave its arrangement with the Patriot, other Patriot schools prove they are willing to take the same path as Fordham, the Patriot demonstrates it will find an academic compromise with scholarships and/or the NEC will allow scholarships to rise to counter status, you're going to have to enlighten me how staying in the CAA is riskier.

Half-seriously, does anyone want to join the Patriot League?

[aceinthehole]

I'm sure UNH would be happy to join the PL if 1) the league allowed 63 scholarhips, and 2) eliminated an AI or any restrictions on recruiting student-athletes. Since neither of those things will happen in the next 5 years, let's take UNH off the table for PL expansion.

UNH administrators (and most fans) have no desire to play in the NEC. Even if the league allowed 63 scholarhips, UNH will not be making road trips to Moon Township or Loretto; they will not play football at "Campus Stadium" in Fairfield, CT; they have no interest in affiliating with the NEC.

Albany may have a stadium in the works, but even with UNH, Maine, they can't start America East Football without other willing members. Stony Brook would rather join the CAA, taking the place of UMass, than help get AE football off the ground. CCSU has the ability and desire to fully fund football, but without a conference to embrace them, they will make the best of the 40-scholly consensus in the NEC.

URI has made it's choice to leave the CAA for the NEC, and I might expect Maine to follow that path, but UNH will not. UNH just released a future schedule securing games vs regional rivals. I have every reason to belive that program is on track and despite the changes in New England football, Wildcat fans will "Live Free, or Die" in the CAA.

[aceinthehole]

Half-seriously, does anyone want to join the Patriot League?

I've heard murmurs that Monmouth aspires to join the Patriot League in the future, but it would have to be as a full member, not affiliate status.

People say they didn't build a 4,100-seat, $57 million multi-purpose athletic center for NEC basketball.
http://www.gomuhawks.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=14300&ATCLID=204799566

They have an excellent President (Ret. Vice Admiral, USN) who trying to take the school to the next level.

Lehigh and Colgate travel to W. Long Branch this year, so it will be interesting to get the PL's reaction to Monmouth after this season.

[Sader87]

Half-seriously, does anyone want to join the Patriot League?


Conversely, does anyone beside Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell want to be in the PL????

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Good article LFN. I particularly enjoyed the discussion on the history of the old Yankee Conference.

I really feel like UNH and Maine need to get on the America East conference commissioner to sponsor football. I believe they could attract Stony Brook, Fordham, and any other NEC or PL schools that would like offer scholarships, but for some constraint or another do not.

I know it'll hurt to lose the autobid to the FCS playoffs, but perhaps they could apply for some sort of waiver? Maybe they'll be allowed in via an at-large bid? Nonetheless, that might just be the costs of saving money by not having to fly to VA and Atlanta for conference games.

[UAalum72]

Good article LFN. I particularly enjoyed the discussion on the history of the old Yankee Conference.

I really feel like UNH and Maine need to get on the America East conference commissioner to sponsor football. I believe they could attract Stony Brook, Fordham, and any other NEC or PL schools that would like offer scholarships, but for some constraint or another do not.

I know it'll hurt to lose the autobid to the FCS playoffs, but perhaps they could apply for some sort of waiver? Maybe they'll be allowed in via an at-large bid? Nonetheless, that might just be the costs of saving money by not having to fly to VA and Atlanta for conference games.
Well, the America East commissioner just resigned today to become the AD at George Washington, so it's going to be a while (if ever) before a new commish is hired and can start working on football (and the resistance of the non-football schools)

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Well, the America East commissioner just resigned today to become the AD at George Washington, so it's going to be a while (if ever) before a new commish is hired and can start working on football (and the resistance of the non-football schools)

Well that might be good timing for the administrations at Maine and UNH to help sway the decisions of who will take his place.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/way-forward-in-northeast.html

My own proposal for a bold way forward in the Northeast.

[Sader87]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/way-forward-in-northeast.html

My own proposal for a bold way forward in the Northeast.

Drop Fordham and Georgetown and add Monmouth and Bryant??? Are you serious??? Do you really think anyone at HC (alumni, administation, current students etc. etc.) would be OK with that????

[NHwildEcat]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/way-forward-in-northeast.html

My own proposal for a bold way forward in the Northeast.

From what I gather with this proposal, these 3 conferences would essentially work together to formualte these newer conferences...how would scheduling work? Would UNH play the 6 full scholly teams in their conference and then be free to schedule 5 OOC games? Or would you propose some set number of games with other teams in this 3 conference setup?

I know other UNH fans on here feel that staying the course in the CAA is the best situation, and while I profess that I love being in the CAA I do not want to be left out in the cold when push comes to shove. I would like to see UNH actively move forward and determine their own future. My only requirements are that we contine to have the opportunity to play an FBS school, maintain our current level of schollys, and be members of a AQ conference. I think I can live with not being in necessarily the strongest conference, as I believe the CAA in 5 years will not be the strongest like we once claimed to be. I just want to remain compeititve and be allowed to compete for a National Title.

If we were able to do what UMASS has done that would be great (I say this because of the recognition you receive playing in the FBS that doesn't happen when you play in FCS-- on a national scale). I can already attest to the increased talk on Boston sports radio regarding UMASS and the possiblities of where the program can/will go in the future, so for those who disagree over the increased attention--save it. But I also acknowledge UNH isn't EVER going to move up, we have no money to pay for a new stadium, which would be ideal and necessary to compete. In fact, it may be necessary to continue in the CAA.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Good article LFN. I particularly enjoyed the discussion on the history of the old Yankee Conference.

I really feel like UNH and Maine need to get on the America East conference commissioner to sponsor football. I believe they could attract Stony Brook, Fordham, and any other NEC or PL schools that would like offer scholarships, but for some constraint or another do not.

I know it'll hurt to lose the autobid to the FCS playoffs, but perhaps they could apply for some sort of waiver? Maybe they'll be allowed in via an at-large bid? Nonetheless, that might just be the costs of saving money by not having to fly to VA and Atlanta for conference games.

Duh, don't you think it would have happened by now if it was that easy? Albany and Stony Brook are members of the America East Conference and it's still not a slam dunk! The other schools don't care about football, there aren't five solid candidates to make a viable conference and the conference has never had the leadership to make it happen anyway. There are plenty of threads on this site you can read to obtain more history.

Are you aware that UNH and Maine are charter members of the CAA Football League, a league that is a separate entity from your CAA all sports league?

[Brad82]

LFN,This is a terrific blog post-I will be amazed if UNH and Maine pass the NEC conference and 40 schollies (maybe more in future) to go non-schollie and Patriot league.
Do you think anyone one in NEC may have told new members they may be adding more schollies in future?

[henfan]

I really feel like UNH and Maine need to get on the America East conference commissioner to sponsor football. I believe they could attract Stony Brook, Fordham, and any other NEC or PL schools that would like offer scholarships, but for some constraint or another do not.

America East Football is NEVER going to happen. The AEC's last best shot at football occurred in Fall 2000, when they had the opportunity to create an all-sport conference by absorbing what was left of the CAA. They couldn't even get UVm, UHart & BU on board with that plan, let alone a plan that involves affiliates, etc.

UMass is off to the MAC. URI is all but gone with a de-emphasis on FB. Those two schools were a critical part of any sliver of hope the AEC might have once had at creating something, even if Albany & CCSU could have ramped up schollies. The idea of a full scholarship FCS NE-based FB conference has never been less of a possibility.

[DFW HOYA]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/way-forward-in-northeast.html

My own proposal for a bold way forward in the Northeast.

Talk about getting kicked to the curb.

I'd expect that from a Holy Cross blog (whose fans have never quite warmed to the Hoyas). But from LFN?

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Duh, don't you think it would have happened by now if it was that easy? Albany and Stony Brook are members of the America East Conference and it's still not a slam dunk! The other schools don't care about football,

I don't see how that is prohibitive. At the time that CAA took over the A-10 football league Drexel, George Mason, Virginia Commonwealth, Old Dominion, UNC-Wilmington, and Georgia State did not care about football. And yet that did not stop the CAA from taking over A-10 football.

How would an America East football league harm the non-football members of the league to the point that would be against the formation of such league? They wouldn't be forced to start football or anything. Schools that already have football programs will still have football programs, but instead of playing under the CAA, Big South, or NEC banner they'll be playing under the AEast banner - so its not like supporting a football conference would cause athletics budgets to rise or anything else that may tip any competitive balance within the AEast.

This sounds more like an excuse than a "problem."


there aren't five solid candidates to make a viable conference and the conference has never had the leadership to make it happen anyway. There are plenty of threads on this site you can read to obtain more history.

This sounds like the real "problem." And like I said in my post after the post that you quoted - this is the time for Maine, UNH, Albany, and Stony Brook to use their influence within the AEast to install conference leadership that will be favorable to creating a football league.



Are you aware that UNH and Maine are charter members of the CAA Football League, a league that is a separate entity from your CAA all sports league?


Yes. What does that have to do with this? I'm not proposing that the CAA Football League boot out UNH or Maine. As far as I am concerned Maine and UNH should be welcomed to stay in the CAA Football League. In fact, you might have seen past posts of mine that suggest that should Villanova depart that the CAA Football League should not seek expansion or retraction and just stick with the 9 remaining members of the league so we can have the type of round-robin scheduling that the SoCon uses. I was simply proposing alternatives that might more cost effective the UNH and Maine programs, versus remaining in the CAA.

[Brad82]

Rhody's reasoning behind move (as told to me) was precipitated by Hofstra,NU dropping FB and being told prior that UMASS/Nova moving up. No other issues were factors.
Part 1 of progam's goal's was to keep costs in-line. The CAA FB and A-10 BB are way too spread out.

[aceinthehole]

LFN,This is a terrific blog post-I will be amazed if UNH and Maine pass the NEC conference and 40 schollies (maybe more in future) to go non-schollie and Patriot league.
Do you think anyone one in NEC may have told new members they may be adding more schollies in future?

No, because I've been told the NEC is basically split on the issue right now. The problem is the 4 NEC core members oppose an increase, mostly because they can't afford it.

In favor of 63 schollys: CCSU, Monmouth, and RMU
Against 63 schollys: Bryant, Sacred Heart, Saint Francis, and Wagner
No vote: Albany (in favor), Duquense (against), and URI (?)

UG Enrollment of schools voting against:
Bryant - 3,253
SHU - 3,534
SFPA - 1,558
Wag - 1,799

*Saint Francis and Wagner are the 3rd and 5th smallest private FCS school by UG enrollment. Presby and Wofford are the only smaller private schools that offer 63 scholarships.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

From what I gather with this proposal, these 3 conferences would essentially work together to formualte these newer conferences...how would scheduling work? Would UNH play the 6 full scholly teams in their conference and then be free to schedule 5 OOC games? Or would you propose some set number of games with other teams in this 3 conference setup?

I know other UNH fans on here feel that staying the course in the CAA is the best situation, and while I profess that I love being in the CAA I do not want to be left out in the cold when push comes to shove. I would like to see UNH actively move forward and determine their own future. My only requirements are that we contine to have the opportunity to play an FBS school, maintain our current level of schollys, and be members of a AQ conference. I think I can live with not being in necessarily the strongest conference, as I believe the CAA in 5 years will not be the strongest like we once claimed to be. I just want to remain compeititve and be allowed to compete for a National Title.

If we were able to do what UMASS has done that would be great (I say this because of the recognition you receive playing in the FBS that doesn't happen when you play in FCS-- on a national scale). I can already attest to the increased talk on Boston sports radio regarding UMASS and the possiblities of where the program can/will go in the future, so for those who disagree over the increased attention--save it. But I also acknowledge UNH isn't EVER going to move up, we have no money to pay for a new stadium, which would be ideal and necessary to compete. In fact, it may be necessary to continue in the CAA.

And the only other option I see available today is to join Stony Brook in the Big South. Makes the CAA look better doesn't it!

Got to have counter status to play a FBS school -- the NEC and Patriot don't provide that.

People have criticized UNH for not being interested in a more regional league, but unless all the members agreed to counter status why would that league be in UNH's best interest?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No, because I've been told the NEC is basically split on the issue right now. The problem is the 4 NEC core members oppose an increase, mostly because they can't afford it.

In favor of 63 schollys: CCSU, Monmouth, and RMU
Against 63 schollys: Bryant, Sacred Heart, Saint Francis, and Wagner
No vote: Albany (in favor), Duquense (against), and URI (?)

UG Enrollment of schools voting against:
Bryant - 3,253
SHU - 3,534
SFPA - 1,558
Wag - 1,799

This illustrates the logic of the PL and NEC joining forces on this to keep their existing conferences and adding a non-scholarship conference. The NEC has the same issues the PL does, ultimately: some want to go to 63 scholarships, some want a limited number (or none), and others want a third option. In my scenario, you put the 63 scholarship squads in their own league, you put the non-scholarships in another, and the rest find a home in the "middle way" Patriot League.

There's a port for every ship - it's not a perfect match, but better than the huge variance that exists now within the NEC and Patriot (and the CAA, for that matter).

Interesting that Bryant is against 63 scholarships, and RMU is for. I could see switching out Bryant in the Patriot League for Robert Morris if that's the case. Positives include developing a RMU/Bucknell rivalry in the Patriot League. Negatives include no true travel parter for Holy Cross.

I'll switch Bryant and RMU in my original blog posting.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I don't see how that is prohibitive. At the time that CAA took over the A-10 football league Drexel, George Mason, Virginia Commonwealth, Old Dominion, UNC-Wilmington, and Georgia State did not care about football. And yet that did not stop the CAA from taking over A-10 football.

How would an America East football league harm the non-football members of the league to the point that would be against the formation of such league? They wouldn't be forced to start football or anything. Schools that already have football programs will still have football programs, but instead of playing under the CAA, Big South, or NEC banner they'll be playing under the AEast banner - so its not like supporting a football conference would cause athletics budgets to rise or anything else that may tip any competitive balance within the AEast.

This sounds more like an excuse than a "problem."



This sounds like the real "problem." And like I said in my post after the post that you quoted - this is the time for Maine, UNH, Albany, and Stony Brook to use their influence within the AEast to install conference leadership that will be favorable to creating a football league.

It's an issue to them because adding the number of football schools it would take to provide a stable football league would require a large all sports league. In a perfect world all the football members would be in the all sports league. That would push membership to 14. Even just adding three pushes membership to 12 requiring divisions or unbalanced schedules. Beyond that is the philosophical issues. Many of the other five schools are more concerned about soccer, lacrosse and field hockey than football. They'd prefer emphasis on basketball and the Olympic sports rather than football. Football is a separate conference from CAA All Sports, there is a difference.

And as someone else mentioned, it's not clear that Stony Brook really wants AE Football to develop. And until Albany was ready to go to at least counter status, why would they push for AE football.

I don't have time to explain the entire dynamics of the AEC, but this group of schools couldn't come to agreement to take over the Hockey East Association despite five AE schools and one former AE school playing in the league. Boston College (ACC), Providence (Big East) and UMass (A-10) didn't have a problem. The two D-II schools (UMass-Lowell and Merrimack) didn't have a problem. The former AE school (Northeastern) didn't have a problem. The "urban legend" was that a hockey playing school (Boston University) blocked the administration of the hockey league that would have brought significant exposure to the league (three of the last four national champions).


Yes. What does that have to do with this? I'm not proposing that the CAA Football League boot out UNH or Maine. As far as I am concerned Maine and UNH should be welcomed to stay in the CAA Football League. In fact, you might have seen past posts of mine that suggest that should Villanova depart that the CAA Football League should not seek expansion or retraction and just stick with the 9 remaining members of the league so we can have the type of round-robin scheduling that the SoCon uses. I was simply proposing alternatives that might more cost effective the UNH and Maine programs, versus remaining in the CAA.

Sorry if I overreacted but it did sound like you were trying to push UNH out. Of course UNH is concerned about expenses, but it hasn't reached the point that so many posters from other schools seem to think it is. We quite happy being a part of CAA Football and I think our AD made it clear today that we're content being part of CAA Football going forward.

[aceinthehole]

Interesting that Bryant is against 63 scholarships, and RMU is for. I could see switching out Bryant in the Patriot League for Robert Morris if that's the case. Positives include developing a RMU/Bucknell rivalry in the Patriot League. Negatives include no true travel parter for Holy Cross.

I'll switch Bryant and RMU in my original blog posting.

This is based on what I've heard and read from various sources within the NEC, but I'm sure Dgreco and OrigRMC could give their insight as well.

Don't forget, Bryant was upgrading fron non-scholarship (or very limited scholarship) D-II football in the NE-10. Basically they are trying to add 30+ schoalrships in a few years just to get even in the NEC. Getting to 63 so soon is just unrealistic for them right now.

RMU has shown some willingness to spend the $$ on athletics to improve their reputation. They invested in ice hockey and the Sports Island facility. Joe Walton has built the program up and they now have a decent alumni/booster base and are now ready and willing to invest.

As for academics, I wouldn't think RMU is even on the 'long list' of potential Patriot League candidates. Bryant is a good schools with a very strong business school, but I don't think they are PL material in the classroom either. IMO, Monmouth is trying to fit the the Patroit model, but of course will fall short. If you were willing to take a reach on American years ago, than I would think Monmouth or Marist would be the best bet for the PL.

[Go...gate]

Conversely, does anyone beside Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell want to be in the PL????

We know you sure as shootin' don't want to be in there.

[bluehenbillk]

I don't think it would happen, and I normally don't like many of your ideas - much less pay attention to them :), but I personally like the way you layed this one out. Good work.

[Go...gate]

This is based on what I've heard and read from various sources within the NEC, but I'm sure Dgreco and OrigRMC could give their insight as well.

Don't forget, Bryant was upgrading fron non-scholarship (or very limited scholarship) D-II football in the NE-10. Basically they are trying to add 30+ schoalrships in a few years just to get even in the NEC. Getting to 63 so soon is just unrealistic for them right now.

RMU has shown some willingness to spend the $$ on athletics to improve their reputation. They invested in ice hockey and the Sports Island facility. Joe Walton has built the program up and they now have a decent alumni/booster base and are now ready and willing to invest.

As for academics, I wouldn't think RMU is even on the 'long list' of potential Patriot League candidates. Bryant is a good schools with a very strong business school, but I don't think they are PL material in the classroom either. IMO, Monmouth is trying to fit the the Patriot model, but of course will fall short. If you were willing to take a reach on American years ago, than I would think Monmouth or Marist would be the best bet for the PL.

Never knew that Monmouth wanted in to the Patriot League. Selfishly, I would like it because West Long Branch is an easy and scenic drive.

[ngineer]

I think the Monmouth and Marist scenarios are the most likely to occur if any new schools would join the PL.

[Sader87]

We know you sure as shootin' don't want to be in there.

Yer darn tootin'...look, Holy Cross has always been a "square peg" in this league anyway. Dropping Fordham and Georgetown for Monmouth and Robert Morris only exacerbates this problem. No offense to LFN but I really don't think he has a good understanding for how many alumni at HC feel about the Patriot League.

[Seawolf97]

One new twist announced today is that the AE Commissioner Mr Nero is leaving. He took the AD job at George Washington Univ. So new leadership at the top of the AE is coming. Nero has been rumored to be anti football since the beginning of his tenure in the AE. So if SBU, Albany, Maine and UNH stick together maybe just maybe we will see football in the AE someday. Lets see who his replacement will be.

[Go...gate]

This illustrates the logic of the PL and NEC joining forces on this to keep their existing conferences and adding a non-scholarship conference. The NEC has the same issues the PL does, ultimately: some want to go to 63 scholarships, some want a limited number (or none), and others want a third option. In my scenario, you put the 63 scholarship squads in their own league, you put the non-scholarships in another, and the rest find a home in the "middle way" Patriot League.

There's a port for every ship - it's not a perfect match, but better than the huge variance that exists now within the NEC and Patriot (and the CAA, for that matter).

Interesting that Bryant is against 63 scholarships, and RMU is for. I could see switching out Bryant in the Patriot League for Robert Morris if that's the case. Positives include developing a RMU/Bucknell rivalry in the Patriot League. Negatives include no true travel parter for Holy Cross.

I'll switch Bryant and RMU in my original blog posting.

Cross can join the ACC and be a travel partner with Boston College. ; )

[Neighbor2]

Sader87,

Gotta tell you, ever since the Lockbaum/scholarship success you had in this league, success that's NOW not so easy to achieve, you guys have been flaunting yourselves as a disrespected, Notre Dame of the East. Well, you ain't that! More importantly, your lack of lofty position is the result of your OWN administration, NOT your Patriot League comrades. I've been in the presence of you, and yours, at football and basketball games. What a bunch of whiners!

I sincerely hope you find a place of higher comfort. Till then, show a little class and humility. A bit of respect for the league YOUR people chose to join. Direct your scorn in house, that's all.

[Go...gate]

I think the Monmouth and Marist scenarios are the most likely to occur if any new schools would join the PL.

FWIW, they have both moved up in the various rating services this year. I don't think Marist wants us, though.

[Go...gate]

Sader87,

Gotta tell you, ever since the Lockbaum/scholarship success you had in this league, success that's NOW not so easy to achieve, you guys have been flaunting yourselves as a disrespected, Notre Dame of the East. Well, you ain't that! More importantly, your lack of lofty position is the result of your OWN administration, NOT your Patriot League comrades. I've been in the presence of you, and yours, at football and basketball games. What a bunch of whiners!

I sincerely hope you find a place of higher comfort. Till then, show a little class and humility. A bit of respect for the league YOUR people chose to join. Direct your scorn in house, that's all.

Hear, hear.

[Sader87]

Sader87,

Gotta tell you, ever since the Lockbaum/scholarship success you had in this league, success that's NOW not so easy to achieve, you guys have been flaunting yourselves as a disrespected, Notre Dame of the East. Well, you ain't that! More importantly, your lack of lofty position is the result of your OWN administration, NOT your Patriot League comrades. I've been in the presence of you, and yours, at football and basketball games. What a bunch of whiners!

I sincerely hope you find a place of higher comfort. Till then, show a little class and humility. A bit of respect for the league YOUR people chose to join. Direct your scorn in house, that's all.

We could have been in the Big East you know.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

We could have been in the Big East you know.

You really should have went to Syracuse or Boston College. No one cares about what happened 30 years ago anymore. The college sports landscape has drastically changed. You really, really try to get a lot of mileage out of a 6 year run in the 80's. Why was Holy Cross football in the dumps in the 60's and 70's? Can't blame the PL for those crappy decades.

[Go...gate]

We could have been in the Big East you know.

And you decided against it.

HC owns its institutional decisions, just as we all do. It makes us who we are.

[Go...gate]

You really should have went to Syracuse or Boston College. No one cares about what happened 30 years ago anymore. The college sports landscape has drastically changed. You really, really try to get a lot of mileage out of a 6 year run in the 80's. Why was Holy Cross football in the dumps in the 60's and 70's? Can't blame the PL for those crappy decades.

Hey, we've all had a couple of those decades - Lehigh, too, before Dunlap got things going. Colgate certainly has had its ups and downs.

[Sader87]

You really should have went to Syracuse or Boston College. No one cares about what happened 30 years ago anymore. The college sports landscape has drastically changed. You really, really try to get a lot of mileage out of a 6 year run in the 80's. Why was Holy Cross football in the dumps in the 60's and 70's? Can't blame the PL for those crappy decades.

Given enough time, I'm sure I (we) could come up with a reason to blame the PL.

Believe me, we are well aware that we "dug our own grave" here....the PL is composed of great schools, mostly better than Holy Cross in fact...it's just that most (albeit older) alumni have no real connection to these schools be it geographically, historically, institutionally or athletically (save for Colgate in football) etc. The Patriot League has gutted both Holy Cross and Colgate in football and has effectively made HC basketball irrelevant nationally in basketball.

[Go...gate]

You really should have went to Syracuse or Boston College. No one cares about what happened 30 years ago anymore. The college sports landscape has drastically changed. You really, really try to get a lot of mileage out of a 6 year run in the 80's. Why was Holy Cross football in the dumps in the 60's and 70's? Can't blame the PL for those crappy decades.

Given enough time, I'm sure I (we) could come up with a reason to blame the PL.

Believe me, we are well aware that we "dug our own grave" here....the PL is composed of great schools, mostly better than Holy Cross in fact...it's just that most (albeit older) alumni we have no real connection to these schools be it geographically, historically, institutionally (save for Colgate in football) etc. The Patriot League has gutted both Holy Cross and Colgate in football and has effectively made HC basketball irrelevant nationally in basketball.

We played you in BB a lot over the years - you just beat us all the time. AFAIAC, HC will always be a special and respected fellow traveler with Colgate.

Also, I don't agree for one minute that most of the schools in the PL are better than HC. That is simply not true. You guys have been a great school for many years, and no Jesuit school turns out a mediocre product.

[Tribe4SF]

I'd like to see some new Northeast blood in the CAA to help stabilize the economics of membership for Maine and UNH. Fordham, Stoney Brook, Albany or CCSU would all be fine with me. If Villanova leaves, we'll take all four of them. My first choice would be for Lehigh and Colgate to bail on the PL football league, and join the CAA as full scholarship programs. The lack of a decision from the PL on scholarships leads one to believe that Bucknell, Georgetown and Holy Cross are not going to buy in, and it's sad to see Lehigh and Colgate fading into football irrelevance because they cling to an antiquated league model. I don't believe any of the possible PL football members discussed here are going to join a PL that sticks with equivalencies and the current AI. From my view, the PL schools who want to play competitive FCS football need to take action more than UNH or Maine.

[henfan]

One new twist announced today is that the AE Commissioner Mr Nero is leaving. He took the AD job at George Washington Univ. So new leadership at the top of the AE is coming. Nero has been rumored to be anti football since the beginning of his tenure in the AE.

Whoa. Wasn't Nero the guy who proclaimed it his mission to bring hockey and football to the AEC upon his hiring?

Alas, conference commissioners have little determination in the direction of leagues. They take marching orders from their constituent CEO's & AD's.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Whoa. Wasn't Nero the guy who proclaimed it his mission to bring hockey and football to the AEC upon his hiring?

Alas, conference commissioners have little determination in the direction of leagues. They take marching orders from their constituent CEO's & AD's.

I sure recall the rumor that Nero got the AE Commish job because he told the presidents that he could get ice hockey and football under the AE banner. Husky Alum, are you still reading this forum?

Seawolf97, Nero was the AD at Maine before becoming Commish. That should have made him pro-football.

[Ken_Z]

Conversely, does anyone beside Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell want to be in the PL????

unfortunately for you, the HC administration wants the PL. ditto for Colgate. as noted, others like Monmouth might like the PL as it is currently constructed, but the PL is not ready to go there yet. if scholarships are ultimately defeated, then the league is likely forced to go with schools of that ilk.

when (if) scholarships are approved, the (probably) bad news for HC is that expansion will be to the south, possbily further south than anyone on this board is thinking about. in that case, as a further removed northern outpost, perhaps the HC admin would go another direction e.g. MAAC for other sports, ? for football; that might please some HC alums although the football situation would likely not be an upgrade. learn to love the PL, or these may be the good old days in 10 years. and to be clear, i expect HC to stick with the PL regardless of the scholarship vote outcome and expansion decisions, just saying there is some slight possibility i could be wrong.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

unfortunately for you, the HC administration wants the PL. ditto for Colgate. as noted, others like Monmouth might like the PL as it is currently constructed, but the PL is not ready to go there yet. if scholarships are ultimately defeated, then the league is likely forced to go with schools of that ilk.

If what aceinthehole says is true (and I trust him on this), Monmouth and Robert Morris would be a "yes" vote for 63 scholarships within the NEC. The question I have is: would they be OK with some combination of full scholarships, grants-in-aid and an academic index to allow them to get to 63?

The way I see a PL/NEC alliance working is with the schools that want full scholarship with redshirting and no AI (NEC football), very limited (or no) scholarship with a Pioneer Football League Model (Northeast Alliance), and the Patriot League somewhere in the middle with the AI, grants-in-aid and some scholarships.

Additionally, there's room for movement, too. If the Holy Cross admin decides that they don't want to sponsor scholarship football anymore, they could switch effortlessly into the non-scholarship conference. If Colgate decides they want to redshirt and get rid of the AI, they can join the NEC. If Albany wants more games with the Ivy League, they'll consider Patriot League membership.

And - crucially - it allows basketball to stay exactly the way it is.

[Wildcat80]

I'd like to see some new Northeast blood in the CAA to help stabilize the economics of membership for Maine and UNH. Fordham, Stoney Brook, Albany or CCSU would all be fine with me. If Villanova leaves, we'll take all four of them. My first choice would be for Lehigh and Colgate to bail on the PL football league, and join the CAA as full scholarship programs. The lack of a decision from the PL on scholarships leads one to believe that Bucknell, Georgetown and Holy Cross are not going to buy in, and it's sad to see Lehigh and Colgate fading into football irrelevance because they cling to an antiquated league model. I don't believe any of the possible PL football members discussed here are going to join a PL that sticks with equivalencies and the current AI. From my view, the PL schools who want to play competitive FCS football need to take action more than UNH or Maine.

The bottom line to attracting BETTER players is offering athletic grants in aid. Yes the Ivies & PL get good players--at the high or low end of the income scale they can get great players. The vast majority of better players are in the middle income brackets where it becomes a huge financial issue. Even UNH's out of state costs are in excess of $40k a year and rising fast. I know of an all state player that wanted to go Ivy but got no aid so he accepted a D-1 scholarship to a second choice school. IMO the issue is "political correctness"---whether gender equity or academics---the Presidents, AD's & big contributors that want this need to step up & get it done. WM & Richmond are two good examples of how it does work.

[aceinthehole]

If what aceinthehole says is true (and I trust him on this), Monmouth and Robert Morris would be a "yes" vote for 63 scholarships within the NEC. The question I have is: would they be OK with some combination of full scholarships, grants-in-aid and an academic index to allow them to get to 63?

Again, just to be clear, based on what I've read and heard MU and RMU have indicated support for increased schollys in the NEC. Since both schools did grants-in-aid before schollys, I have no reason to think they wouldn't be OK with some kind of mix, as you suggest.

But you have to be realistic, neither school can do that and adhere to an AI in football. Monmouth's academic profile may be just oustide of the range the PL is looking for, but RMU isn't in the same orbit as PL schools. I'm am only trying to be a realist, but based on their "academic profile," RMU is not even an option for PL Presidents to discuss.

Your proposal is pointless because PL Presidents can't agree to Fordham's proposal to allow schollys. How on in the world do you think they will agree to 'align' with the NEC or expand with schools like RMU or Monmouth? You dream way too much and refuse to accept the real decision making process and factors that ADs and Presidnets of multi-million dollar insitutions of higher learning are considering.

Monmouth
% accepted = 60
SAT Critical Reading: 490 - 570
SAT Math: 500 - 590
SAT Writing: 490 - 580

Robert Morris
% accepted = 89
SAT Critical Reading: 450 - 540
SAT Math: 460 - 580
SAT Writing: 440 - 540

Marist
% accepted = 40
SAT Critical Reading: 530 - 620
SAT Math: 540 - 630
SAT Writing: 540 - 630

American
% accepted = 43
SAT Critical Reading: 590 - 710
SAT Math: 580 - 680
SAT Writing: 580 - 690

Lehigh
% accepted = 38
SAT Critical Reading: 580 - 670
SAT Math: 640 - 720

* SAT Scores are for Middle 50% of First-Year Students
Source: www.collegeboard.com

[NDB]

Anybody want a team from Youngstown?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Your proposal is pointless because PL Presidents can't agree to Fordham's proposal to allow schollys. How on in the world do you think they will agree to 'align' with the NEC or expand with schools like RMU or Monmouth? You dream way too much and refuse to accept the real decision making process and factors that ADs and Presidnets of multi-million dollar insitutions of higher learning are considering.

How on earth did the Missouri Valley, Summit, Horizon, and Atlantic Ten conference come to a decision to found the Missouri Valley Football (nee Gateway) and Pioneer Football League conferences? They obviously came to some mutually beneficial conclusion about their football programs, and which conference administers them. And they managed to do all this while preserving basketball. Matter of fact, better than preserve basketball - in the last two years Butler has made the finals and Northern Iowa was a Sweet 16 team in 2010.

The Pioneer and Gateway conferences were founded on three principles: that football is worth saving, the basketball conference setup does not benefit football, and that a hybrid of conferences can allow everyone to pursue the level of FCS football that they want. What's so radical about instituting it back east? The Yankee Conference was always a hybrid, and it doesn't take too long to realize the perils of allowing basketball conferences to define football: schools like Hofstra, Northeastern, and BU would rather drop the sport.

The alternative is to wait for Northeast programs to drop football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Again, just to be clear, based on what I've read and heard MU and RMU have indicated support for increased schollys in the NEC. Since both schools did grants-in-aid before schollys, I have no reason to think they wouldn't be OK with some kind of mix, as you suggest.

But you have to be realistic, neither school can do that and adhere to an AI in football. Monmouth's academic profile may be just oustide of the range the PL is looking for, but RMU isn't in the same orbit as PL schools. I'm am only trying to be a realist, but based on their "academic profile," RMU is not even an option for PL Presidents to discuss.

I'll spare you my once-a-year rant about why the PL should be thinking outside the box for the AI. I think academic standards for athletes are a great idea, but I acknowledge that applying it to public schools or improving academic schools can be really tough. I think that new things should be tried, with input from those schools, to see what is possible.

But keep in mind that Robert Morris and Monmouth would, in effect, only be affiliate schools in football. The AI wouldn't apply to any of their other sports programs since they'd still be in NEC basketball. This, I think, would make it more palatable for everyone.

Furthermore, when you think of each school in each conference as a football affiliate only, it makes more sense overall. The idea is to think of it not as an all-sports conference tied at the hip but as a loose football conference affiliation, jointly run by two football-sponsoring conferences (the PL and NEC), offering all the options for sponsoring football. Without impacting basketball.

[aceinthehole]

How on earth did the Missouri Valley, Summit, Horizon, and Atlantic Ten conference come to a decision to found the Missouri Valley Football (nee Gateway) and Pioneer Football League conferences? They obviously came to some mutually beneficial conclusion about their football programs, and which conference administers them. And they managed to do all this while preserving basketball.

Sorry, the premise of your argument is totally wrong! Those conferences didn't come to any mutual conclusion or decision.

The Pioneer was founded way back in 1993 by 6 SCHOOLS previously playing football in D-II and D-III (Butler, Dayton, Drake, Evansville, San Diego, and Valpo), as a result of the NCAA mandate that football must be played at the same level as the rest of your athletic teams.

Over the years, other schools that wanted to continue, or start, playing football at the non-scholarship level joined the PFL.

The PFL is administered by the MVC because it was easy and cost-effective solution for the member football programs, period.

I'll let the PFL fans add to their rich history, but please LFN don't oversimplfy this and say that major athletic conference have done anything close to what you are proposing. I'm not suggesting your idea is a bad one - I'm just saying it's not grounded in any reality or posssibility whatsoever.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'll let the PFL fans add to their rich history, but please LFN don't oversimplfy this and say that major athletic conference have done anything close to what you are proposing. I'm not suggesting your idea is a bad one - I'm just saying it's not grounded in any reality or posssibility whatsoever.

The PFL is administered by the MVC because it was easy and cost-effective solution for the member football programs, period.

I understand, you're not saying the idea is bad. But it's not as if Butler, Dayton, Drake, Evansville, San Diego, and Valpo operated in a vacuum, either, by creating this PFL construct and not letting the Horizon League, A-10, Missouri Valley and WCC know what they were doing. You can't call this a process completely independent of their basketball conferences. If anything, the fact that the PFL has been operating out of the offices of the Missouri Valley for over a decade debunk this idea.

And, in a way, my proposal is an ackowledgement that their model has worked. The Gateway/MVFC have expanded with two perfect FCS candidates (NDSU/SDSU) and will be adding South Dakota seemingly at their insistence. Despite thoughts that non-scholarship ball is dying, the PFL is thriving and adding schools like Campbell, Stetson and Mercer. Meanwhile, the MAAC was torn apart, the CAA is losing members left and right, and the NEC and PL are struggling with internal issues.

You have to admit some sort of PL/NEC alliance would solve a lot of problems in Northeast football. I don't know if it's even possible, but I think it offers the best hope. But the more I think about this the more convinced I am it's the right way forward.

[aceinthehole]

You have to admit some sort of PL/NEC alliance would solve a lot of problems in Northeast football. I don't know if it's even possible, but I think it offers the best hope. But the more I think about this the more convinced I am it's the right way forward.

Sorry, but we're not even on the same boat. The PL doesn't want to "align" with the NEC, in fact your league is alreadly "aligned" with the Ivy and how is that working out for you?

How and why would NEC members help save PL football? Moreover, what problems does the NEC have with football sponsorship (we've added Duq and URI, and held on to Albany for years), that the PL could or would help solve?

Lehigh/Colgate/Lafayette haven't rarely given NEC teams return games, so what makes you think they want to be in the same conference with Saint Francis or Central Connecticut?

The PFL football setup is more akin to the CAA Football setup. A seperate, one-sport conference ADMINISTERED by a logical and willing conference.

MAAC football died because too many league schools stopped sponsoring teams. The MAAC didn't die, only its sponsorship of football did. Hell, Marist may be doing better today with its PFL affiliation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How and why would NEC members help save PL football? Moreover, what problems does the NEC have with football sponsorship (we've added Duq and URI, and held on to Albany for years), that the PL could or would help solve?

You have the exact same types of problems the PL does. You have some members that want to ramp up to 63 scholarships, some who most definitely don't and some that want some sort of middle way. If you say "OK, we're going up to 63 now", some schools will probably stop sponsoring football. If you say "We'll go back to non-scholarship", schools will bolt the conference altogether. If you continue in some middle way, everyone will be unhappy - and some will STILL drop football (St. John's) or move to different conferences (Stony Brook).


Lehigh/Colgate/Lafayette haven't rarely given NEC teams return games, so what makes you think they want to be in the same conference with Saint Francis or Central Connecticut?

Isn't Monmouth sponsoring both Lehigh and Colgate at home this year? And aren't you guys hosting us in 2012?


The PFL football setup is more akin to the CAA Football setup. A seperate, one-sport conference ADMINISTERED by a logical and willing conference.

MAAC football died because too many league schools stopped sponsoring teams. The MAAC didn't die, only its sponsorship of football did. Hell, Marist may be doing better today with its PFL affiliation.

Marist IS doing better today as part of the PFL than as a part of the MAAC - that's precisely the point. And Marist would be doing even better if all the teams that want to play non-scholarship or limited-scholarship ball in the Northeast with a PFL-like setup around here.

I'll let DFW Hoya talk about why the MAAC died, but to some degree it was because it was based on the old conference-based model, while at the same time it was a magnet for affiliate schools that wanted to sponsor non-scholarship football. At one time, its members wanted to play non-scholarship football. Once its members chose to kill the sport, there was nowhere for the remaining schools to go since it was tied to the basketball conference. The PFL does not have that problem.

[aceinthehole]

You have the exact same types of problems the PL does. You have some members that want to ramp up to 63 scholarships, some who most definitely don't and some that want some sort of middle way. If you say "OK, we're going up to 63 now", some schools will probably stop sponsoring football. If you say "We'll go back to non-scholarship", schools will bolt the conference altogether. If you continue in some middle way, everyone will be unhappy - and some will STILL drop football (St. John's) or move to different conferences (Stony Brook)

No one in the NEC is that unhappy. The 40-scholly compromise appears to be working fine. This is not a NEC problem like the PL has with a member publiclly pusing for a major change in philosophy. The 6-core NEC members have grown this conference quite weel, and affilliates like St. Johns or SBU were nice, but not necessary to keep the league going. You are over vastly estimating the conflict within the NEC.


Isn't Monmouth sponsoring both Lehigh and Colgate at home this year? And aren't you guys hosting us in 2012?

Yes, and I hope so (CCSU needs quality home games)! But before this season, Lehigh and Colgate have NEVER played at a NEC stadium. Yet those 2 teams have hosted NEC opponents more than 10 times! PL teams RARELY return games at NEC schools. Fordham, Bucknell, and G-town are the only teams to play at a NEC stadium more than once. The bottom line is most PL teams don't want to play at St. Francis. Maybe that will change, but I won't hold my breath waiting for Holy Cross to travel to New Britain


Marist IS doing better today as part of the PFL than as a part of the MAAC - that's precisely the point. And Marist would be doing even better if all the teams that want to play non-scholarship or limited-scholarship ball in the Northeast with a PFL-like setup around here.

I'll let DFW Hoya talk about why the MAAC died, but to some degree it was because it was based on the old conference-based model, while at the same time it was a magnet for affiliate schools that wanted to sponsor non-scholarship football. At one time, its members wanted to play non-scholarship football. Once its members chose to kill the sport, there was nowhere for the remaining schools to go since it was tied to the basketball conference. The PFL does not have that problem.
I think what you might be trying to say is that football in the Northeast might work better as a single-sport conference that allows members from multiple conferences based on the desired emphsis or investment in football.

Hockey East is a great example of a conference that sponsor a single sport with memebrs from multiple conferences (AE, Big East, ACC, A-10, NE-10). ECAC Hockey is another example.

However, those conferences were grown organically from scratch and I don't see how you develop the same framework for football in the Northeast based on where we are now. You need a few schools to band together across conference memberships and proactively try to start a revolution ... good luck :)

[Dane96]

Just for the sake of clarity, Colgate WILL be coming to Albany in 2012...some say it may be when we open our new field (I have my doubts). That said, Ace is on point.

[aceinthehole]

Interesting quote from ODU athletic director regarding UMass.


Massachusetts' planned move from the Colonial Athletic Association to the Mid-American Conference in football will end up saving Old Dominion money.

ODU plays UMass on Oct. 1 in the Monarchs' first home CAA game this fall. But ODU will not be expected to visit UMass in 2012, according to an email ODU athletic director Wood Selig received from CAA commissioner Tom Yeager.

UMass, which will join the MAC in 2012, will bump its scholarship numbers following this season to meet the requirements of the Football Bowl Subdivision level, which calls for 85 full scholarships.

The Football Championship Subdivision allows the equivalent of 63 full scholarships that can be divided among as many as 85 players.

"That causes a competitive inequity," Selig said. "I'm sure UMass will bring in mid-year transfers next winter. Some of the other CAA schools may have some interest in playing UMass one more time as they transition to the FBS, but we won't."

Selig estimated the cost of chartering a flight to UMass and room and board for his football team at $90,000.

Rhode Island had already announced it was leaving the CAA to join the Northeast Conference after the 2012 season.

"It is no surprise to me that UMass is making this move," ODU coach Bobby Wilder said. "I think since the moment UConn made the move, UMass has wished it had too. This just continues to bring the CAA further south in geography. It will be a challenge now for New Hampshire and Maine to remain in the CAA."
http://hamptonroads.com/2011/04/umass-2012-football-schedule-because-move?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Jackman]

UMass won't be playing any CAA teams on the road after 2011, and the only CAA team I could see possibly being interested in traveling to Gillette without an appropriate appearance fee is UNH, to continue the Colonial Clash. Other than that, why would even Maine come here unless we were paying them like other FBS teams would?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

UMass won't be playing any CAA teams on the road after 2011, and the only CAA team I could see possibly being interested in traveling to Gillette without an appropriate appearance fee is UNH, to continue the Colonial Clash. Other than that, why would even Maine come here unless we were paying them like other FBS teams would?

And I seriously doubt that UNH would be coming to Gillette again after 2011 without some kind of revenue sharing or the usual guarantee. Will UMass consider a two year extension where UNH would be the home team one game? Will UMass allow something where UNH kept their gate receipts? Seems pretty foolish from the UNH point of view to bring 15k+ fans to Gillette and watch UMass pocket all the revenue. Until you get the Sled Dogs or Beagles on your schedule, does UMass have another opponent that will bring 15K+ to Gillette? Reading the Sled Dog Message Board, they don't seem too eager to give you guys a series and if they do it has to be multiple home games for them to one for UMass.

[aceinthehole]

And I seriously doubt that UNH would be coming to Gillette again after 2011 without some kind of revenue sharing or the usual guarantee. Will UMass consider a two year extension where UNH would be the home team one game? Will UMass allow something where UNH kept their gate receipts? Seems pretty foolish from the UNH point of view to bring 15k+ fans to Gillette and watch UMass pocket all the revenue. Until you get the Sled Dogs or Beagles on your schedule, does UMass have another opponent that will bring 15K+ to Gillette? Reading the Sled Dog Message Board, they don't seem too eager to give you guys a series and if they do it has to be multiple home games for them to one for UMass.

I could see UMass offering UNH some nice $$$ to continue the serise for 2 more years with the Minutemen as the home team.

UConn had previsouly scheduled [FCS] UMass for a one-and-done in 2012, and already has a full scheule in 2013. UConn fans might not like it, but I can't see why the Huskies wouldn't do a 1 for 1 with UMass (Rent/Razor). UConn has (or will) returned home game to programs of a similar stature - Temple, Buffalo, Western Mich, and UCF - so I don't see why they wouldn't do it for UMass. I don't think the UConn AD is afarid of giving UMass legitimacy or anything like that. I think they see this as an attractive home game - and fans have already complained about playing Buffalo and Temple so many times. It is a nice fresh opponent.

IMO - UConn/BC is another issue beacuse of the Big East lawsuit.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I could see UMass offering UNH some nice $$$ to continue the serise for 2 more years with the Minutemen as the home team.

UConn had previsouly scheduled [FCS] UMass for a one-and-done in 2012, and already has a full scheule in 2013. UConn fans might not like it, but I can't see why the Huskies wouldn't do a 1 for 1 with UMass (Rent/Razor). UConn has (or will) returned home game to programs of a similar stature - Temple, Buffalo, Western Mich, and UCF - so I don't see why they wouldn't do it for UMass. I don't think the UConn AD is afarid of giving UMass legitimacy or anything like that. I think they see this as an attractive home game - and fans have already complained about playing Buffalo and Temple so many times. It is a nice fresh opponent.

IMO - UConn/BC is another issue beacuse of the Big East lawsuit.

You know those EE fans! Now that they've played in a BCS bowl, they think their BCS school shouldn't be offering home and home series to anyone except another BCS school. They felt they offered those series with MAC schools when they negotiating from a weaker standpoint. Don't shoot the messenger, you better than anyone know what they're like. Luckily for UMass, the ADs make schedules not the fans. :)

And I meant Beagles-Minutemen as I know the effects of the law suit aren't going away for years to come. xwhistlex

[aceinthehole]

You know those EE fans! Now that they've played in a BCS bowl, they think their BCS school shouldn't be offering home and home series to anyone except another BCS school. They felt they offered those series with MAC schools when they negotiating from a weaker standpoint. Don't shoot the messenger, you better than anyone know what they're like. Luckily for UMass, the ADs make schedules not the fans. :)

And I meant Beagles-Minutemen as I know the effects of the law suit aren't going away for years to come. xwhistlex

Yes, we agree their fans are full of it. They actually think UConn has a national football program - they are just totally nuts and unrealistic. But we both know the AD may have a much more realistic view on scheduling.

[Jackman]

Will UMass consider a two year extension where UNH would be the home team one game? Will UMass allow something where UNH kept their gate receipts?

I don't know what UMass would consider, it will probably depend on how much interest can be drummed up among FBS teams to come here, but I was thinking along the Colonial Clash lines. Give UNH a cut of what they sell. But I don't know how sensible that is for either side. UNH could just play some other FBS team for a bigger payout. Plus, we ought to know better than anyone about risking scheduling the FBS Slayers. But if any CAA team ends up on the schedule after next year, UNH seems far and away the most likely, excluding a Villanova move-up.

[LURules]

Given enough time, I'm sure I (we) could come up with a reason to blame the PL.

Believe me, we are well aware that we "dug our own grave" here....the PL is composed of great schools, mostly better than Holy Cross in fact...it's just that most (albeit older) alumni have no real connection to these schools be it geographically, historically, institutionally or athletically (save for Colgate in football) etc. The Patriot League has gutted both Holy Cross and Colgate in football and has effectively made HC basketball irrelevant nationally in basketball.[/QUOTE]

You are correct Lehigh and Lafayette have gutted Colgate and HC football over the past 15 years... on the field. Exactly how is it the leagues fault (which you joined) that you (HC) can't win a championship? We all compete under the same rules.

As much as you try, you can't seem to place blame where it belongs for your situation, your own school.

[Sader87]

Given enough time, I'm sure I (we) could come up with a reason to blame the PL.

Believe me, we are well aware that we "dug our own grave" here....the PL is composed of great schools, mostly better than Holy Cross in fact...it's just that most (albeit older) alumni have no real connection to these schools be it geographically, historically, institutionally or athletically (save for Colgate in football) etc. The Patriot League has gutted both Holy Cross and Colgate in football and has effectively made HC basketball irrelevant nationally in basketball.

You are correct Lehigh and Lafayette have gutted Colgate and HC football over the past 15 years... on the field. Exactly how is it the leagues fault (which you joined) that you (HC) can't win a championship? We all compete under the same rules.

As much as you try, you can't seem to place blame where it belongs for your situation, your own school.[/QUOTE]

I save that for our own board, believe me.

The PL has gutted HC football for a number of reasons, the biggest being its lack of scholarships....we simply aren't getting the players we once did when we had them.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL hasn't gutted any of its programs--the wounds are self inflicted. If the PL carries the reputation of "where old football programs go to die", it's because the presidents at these schools bought into the idea and, for the most part, maintain it.

If Holy Cross' administration was as serious as you were, they should give notice to the PL, add scholarships, find a home in the Big South or CAA for football and join the A-East in everything else. But to do so places the administration in the disapproving glare of "emphasizing" athletics that the faculty will remind them at every opportunity.

It's too easy to do nothing, to defer votes that were promised, and to generally procrastinate with athletics in the name of "consensus building", which won't be any better in 2012 than it was in 2010. That's why the PL's motto truly remains: "Status Quo".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's too easy to do nothing, to defer votes that were promised, and to generally procrastinate with athletics in the name of "consensus building", which won't be any better in 2012 than it was in 2010. That's why the PL's motto truly remains: "Status Quo".

Meanwhile, football programs are dying all over the Northeast. And they will continue to die, because the schools like being tied to certain conferences for basketball and aren't willing to do what is necessary to preserve the sport.

When teams in the Midwest saw a problem with athletics, they joined forces and formed the Gateway and Pioneer leagues. When teams in the West saw a problem with athletics, they joined forces formed the Great West Conference. Where is such an effort in the East? That one has not come up is a failure of leadership and creativity. Unfortunately, it's football in the East that is the victim.

[WrenFGun]

Unlike a lot of UNH Fans, I see a move to the NEC/some kind of realignment as a very necessary probability. I do not think UNH can afford to take the hit in travel and distance simply to stay in the CAA; and it seems incredibly stubborn to consider this as a long-term, realistic possibility. If we want to see if 'Nova officially leaves before making a decision, that's fine, but I don't see a mass move to FBS of JMU, Georgia State, ODU, etc. in the next, say, two-three years. I think talking about 5-10 years is reasonable, but honestly, that may be too little, too late for UNH.

Finding a way to get to 63 scholarships and unifying with Fordham, Maine, Albany, Stony Brook, etc. is mission critical to the survival of Northeast Football.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Unlike a lot of UNH Fans, I see a move to the NEC/some kind of realignment as a very necessary probability. I do not think UNH can afford to take the hit in travel and distance simply to stay in the CAA; and it seems incredibly stubborn to consider this as a long-term, realistic possibility. If we want to see if 'Nova officially leaves before making a decision, that's fine, but I don't see a mass move to FBS of JMU, Georgia State, ODU, etc. in the next, say, two-three years. I think talking about 5-10 years is reasonable, but honestly, that may be too little, too late for UNH.

Finding a way to get to 63 scholarships and unifying with Fordham, Maine, Albany, Stony Brook, etc. is mission critical to the survival of Northeast Football.

The reason I'm so stubborn about staying in the CAA is that I'm realistic enough to know that dropping to 40 scholarship football would kill any chance of getting to any other full or counter status level league. JMHO, but once that type of cut was made, then there's no returning to even counter status. And a couple of years in the NEC would undo the success of the past seven years.

As I see it, staying in the CAA is the only apparent long term solution even if it does take 5-10 years. Who exactly is going to sponsor this mission critical league? America East? xrotatehx xrotatehx xlolx xlolx Are you sure Fordham is interested in this type of alliance? How about Stony Brook? I don't think they've been a champion of America East Football at all. Even assuming Maine, Albany, Stony Brook and Fordham are on board with this new league, who are the other four schools so that we'd have a league with eight conference games and three OOC games like today? Central CT can't leave NEC Football unless they have a new all sports conference. Same for Monmouth if they could upgrade. And I don't see any reason why the NEC would sponsor this new league. I'm sure LFN will get back to us when the NEC and the Patriot agree to sponsor that three league proposal of his.

Do you have some magic bullet that's going to change UNH's academic profile so that we'd be accepted by the Patriot League and could actually recruit enough players to field a team in that league with their AI? Do you have a plan that will create an all sports league that will entice Holy Cross and Colgate away from the Patriot and convince Fordham to join them in an association with public institutions? I doubt the Patriot would still welcome them for all sports if they moved their football programs. Do you have a plan to get Rhody to return to 57-63 scholarship football? Do you have a plan to make all of this to happen sooner than 5-10 years?

Seriously, tell us the viable alternative for UNH, one that allows them to play at the highest level of FCS and truly compete for a national championship?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Do you have some magic bullet that's going to change UNH's academic profile so that we'd be accepted by the Patriot League and could actually recruit enough players to field a team in that league with their AI?

Funny you should mention...

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/01/way-to-save-patriot-league.html

This is what I proposed more than a year ago. Now I'm not saying that the PL will do this, but is it possible? Absolutely.

[clearthinker]

The reason I'm so stubborn about staying in the CAA is that I'm realistic enough to know that dropping to 40 scholarship football would kill any chance of getting to any other full or counter status level league. JMHO, but once that type of cut was made, then there's no returning to even counter status. And a couple of years in the NEC would undo the success of the past seven years.

As I see it, staying in the CAA is the only apparent long term solution even if it does take 5-10 years. Who exactly is going to sponsor this mission critical league? America East? xrotatehx xrotatehx xlolx xlolx Are you sure Fordham is interested in this type of alliance? How about Stony Brook? I don't think they've been a champion of America East Football at all. Even assuming Maine, Albany, Stony Brook and Fordham are on board with this new league, who are the other four schools so that we'd have a league with eight conference games and three OOC games like today? Central CT can't leave NEC Football unless they have a new all sports conference. Same for Monmouth if they could upgrade. And I don't see any reason why the NEC would sponsor this new league. I'm sure LFN will get back to us when the NEC and the Patriot agree to sponsor that three league proposal of his.

Do you have some magic bullet that's going to change UNH's academic profile so that we'd be accepted by the Patriot League and could actually recruit enough players to field a team in that league with their AI? Do you have a plan that will create an all sports league that will entice Holy Cross and Colgate away from the Patriot and convince Fordham to join them in an association with public institutions? I doubt the Patriot would still welcome them for all sports if they moved their football programs. Do you have a plan to get Rhody to return to 57-63 scholarship football? Do you have a plan to make all of this to happen sooner than 5-10 years?

Seriously, tell us the viable alternative for UNH, one that allows them to play at the highest level of FCS and truly compete for a national championship?



AMEN AMEN

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Funny you should mention...

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/01/way-to-save-patriot-league.html

This is what I proposed more than a year ago. Now I'm not saying that the PL will do this, but is it possible? Absolutely.

Not quite. How is it possible? Is the Patriot any closer to approving scholarships? Or are they ready to compromise on an AI that would allow UNH and Maine to even field a team let alone a competitive team?

[WrenFGun]

The reason I'm so stubborn about staying in the CAA is that I'm realistic enough to know that dropping to 40 scholarship football would kill any chance of getting to any other full or counter status level league. JMHO, but once that type of cut was made, then there's no returning to even counter status. And a couple of years in the NEC would undo the success of the past seven years.

As I see it, staying in the CAA is the only apparent long term solution even if it does take 5-10 years. Who exactly is going to sponsor this mission critical league? America East? xrotatehx xrotatehx xlolx xlolx Are you sure Fordham is interested in this type of alliance? How about Stony Brook? I don't think they've been a champion of America East Football at all. Even assuming Maine, Albany, Stony Brook and Fordham are on board with this new league, who are the other four schools so that we'd have a league with eight conference games and three OOC games like today? Central CT can't leave NEC Football unless they have a new all sports conference. Same for Monmouth if they could upgrade. And I don't see any reason why the NEC would sponsor this new league. I'm sure LFN will get back to us when the NEC and the Patriot agree to sponsor that three league proposal of his.

Do you have some magic bullet that's going to change UNH's academic profile so that we'd be accepted by the Patriot League and could actually recruit enough players to field a team in that league with their AI? Do you have a plan that will create an all sports league that will entice Holy Cross and Colgate away from the Patriot and convince Fordham to join them in an association with public institutions? I doubt the Patriot would still welcome them for all sports if they moved their football programs. Do you have a plan to get Rhody to return to 57-63 scholarship football? Do you have a plan to make all of this to happen sooner than 5-10 years?

Seriously, tell us the viable alternative for UNH, one that allows them to play at the highest level of FCS and truly compete for a national championship?


I don't think enough UNH fans are worried enough about the very VIABLE option (given continued financial distress due to the disparity of northern teams in the CAA) that UNH will have to fold their football program if they cannot find a financially beneficial (or at least, satisfactory) situation for them. This is a team that already loses a ton of money and I don't see competing in a southern conference as a means of addressing that. Would you rather fold the program or try and make the best of what is out there? For me, it's easily the latter.

Now if it means playing two FBS games a year to continue to play in the CAA, sure ... but do we really have a better chance of making the playoffs like that instead of playing in say, the NEC or some kind of revamped PL? Now I understand the argument that once we get there we may not be as well equipped to compete, but something has to give unless you think we're just going to be able to afford 10 years of losing more money than we normally do?

[Collegefootballfan]

Thinking outside of the box I mean thinking way out of the box.
Instead of looking south maybe its time for UNH and Maine to look North
accross the border and team up with teams in the ASU
Schools that are much closer to them , lends a international flavor
and more exposure , granted rules would have to be adjusted
But traval would be cut , along with the schools in ASu there also schools in Montreal.
that have great traditions , McGill and Concordia etc.
Go North Lad !!!! An there is also the possibilty of a National Championship !!!!!
Think about it.

2010 Football Standings
GP W L Pct. Home Road PF PA +/- Pts
Saint Mary's 8 5 3 0.625 3-1 2-2 228 124 104 10
Mount Allison 8 4 4 0.500 3-1 1-3 157 196 -39 8
Acadia 8 4 4 0.500 2-2 2-2 134 154 -20 8
StFX

[DFW HOYA]

Is the Patriot any closer to approving scholarships? Or are they ready to compromise on an AI that would allow UNH and Maine to even field a team let alone a competitive team?

No. And no.

Without the Index, there apparently would be no Patriot League. I don't agree with this, but its supporters seem fairly tied to the concept.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I don't think enough UNH fans are worried enough about the very VIABLE option (given continued financial distress due to the disparity of northern teams in the CAA) that UNH will have to fold their football program if they cannot find a financially beneficial (or at least, satisfactory) situation for them. This is a team that already loses a ton of money and I don't see competing in a southern conference as a means of addressing that. Would you rather fold the program or try and make the best of what is out there? For me, it's easily the latter.

Now if it means playing two FBS games a year to continue to play in the CAA, sure ... but do we really have a better chance of making the playoffs like that instead of playing in say, the NEC or some kind of revamped PL? Now I understand the argument that once we get there we may not be as well equipped to compete, but something has to give unless you think we're just going to be able to afford 10 years of losing more money than we normally do?

Wren, I just don't see the financial distress or how having to make a couple more flights is cataclysmic enough to warrant the significant downgrade that NEC Football would be? Like I've said before, UNH flies commercially to its games at Nova and points south on SouthWest, AirTran or Jet Blue. Even at a $250 ticket and 100 tickets (both probably high estimates) that's $25K per flight and $50K for two more. I'm sorry, but that just isn't a significant enough increase in expenses to warrant an alternative of going to the NEC. I'll have to find those statistics for expenses and revenues, but I think football at UNH has at least $3.5 million in expenses.

I just don't think you throw football under the bus for such an incremental increase in expenses. Especially when staying in the CAA won't hurt attendance or recruiting nor harm any of the intangible benefits that football brings to UNH. I sincerely doubt that UNH fans will all of a sudden reject the league we've been playing in these past two decades plus because all of a sudden it's too Southern. We've been playing Delaware since the 1950's, Richmond since 1986 (25 years) and Villanova, JMU, Towson and William & Mary for anywhere between 15-30 years.

Doesn't UNH have a $25+ million Athletic Department budget? Not finding $50K to reassign out of that budget to me is insanity. Only Men's Ice Hockey rivals Football in popularity, revenue, recognition, exposure, etc. for UNH. I doubt all the remaining programs combined could amass a listing of tangible and intangible benefits to the the University that would surpass Football. Call me radical, but I dump a program if that's what it takes to keep football at full scholly in the CAA. Thankfully, I don't think it will come to that because the Cat Club will help the cause with increased donations.

For now there is no revamped Patriot option nor any "new Yankee". And the NEC only provides entry into the playoffs not the opportunity to win a national championship. (Sorry, but I don't think a 40 scholarship team has the talent and depth to make a run through the playoffs.) Of all the programs at UNH, football plays to the highest level in the most nationally relevant sport. Why wouldn't every UNH alum and fan not want to take every step possible to ensure that it stays that way? When the only option is folding the program and going to a 40 scholarship league, then I'll opt for the 40 scholarship league, but I don't see that now nor do I see any satisfactory options over the CAA currently available.

BTW, I won't even discuss collegiate sports at our level on a "losing money" perspective. There are only a handful of programs at our level where revenues exceed expenses. It's just not how one puts value on collegiate sports.

[Wildcat80]

Any change to the NEC etc would hurt quality substantially. Our out of state tuition is over $40k which all of those extra 45 players would have to pay. If they are smart kids they go Ivy or Patriot at that cost. If they are good...they get at least an NEC schollie somewhere. So far the UNH admin supports CAA level football. Obviously with budget cuts this could change. I'd prefer a payoff FBS game before I'd change anything. That and true Football Fund Raising!

[WrenFGun]

Wren, I just don't see the financial distress or how having to make a couple more flights is cataclysmic enough to warrant the significant downgrade that NEC Football would be? Like I've said before, UNH flies commercially to its games at Nova and points south on SouthWest, AirTran or Jet Blue. Even at a $250 ticket and 100 tickets (both probably high estimates) that's $25K per flight and $50K for two more. I'm sorry, but that just isn't a significant enough increase in expenses to warrant an alternative of going to the NEC. I'll have to find those statistics for expenses and revenues, but I think football at UNH has at least $3.5 million in expenses.

I just don't think you throw football under the bus for such an incremental increase in expenses. Especially when staying in the CAA won't hurt attendance or recruiting nor harm any of the intangible benefits that football brings to UNH. I sincerely doubt that UNH fans will all of a sudden reject the league we've been playing in these past two decades plus because all of a sudden it's too Southern. We've been playing Delaware since the 1950's, Richmond since 1986 (25 years) and Villanova, JMU, Towson and William & Mary for anywhere between 15-30 years.

Doesn't UNH have a $25+ million Athletic Department budget? Not finding $50K to reassign out of that budget to me is insanity. Only Men's Ice Hockey rivals Football in popularity, revenue, recognition, exposure, etc. for UNH. I doubt all the remaining programs combined could amass a listing of tangible and intangible benefits to the the University that would surpass Football. Call me radical, but I dump a program if that's what it takes to keep football at full scholly in the CAA. Thankfully, I don't think it will come to that because the Cat Club will help the cause with increased donations.

For now there is no revamped Patriot option nor any "new Yankee". And the NEC only provides entry into the playoffs not the opportunity to win a national championship. (Sorry, but I don't think a 40 scholarship team has the talent and depth to make a run through the playoffs.) Of all the programs at UNH, football plays to the highest level in the most nationally relevant sport. Why wouldn't every UNH alum and fan not want to take every step possible to ensure that it stays that way? When the only option is folding the program and going to a 40 scholarship league, then I'll opt for the 40 scholarship league, but I don't see that now nor do I see any satisfactory options over the CAA currently available.

BTW, I won't even discuss collegiate sports at our level on a "losing money" perspective. There are only a handful of programs at our level where revenues exceed expenses. It's just not how one puts value on collegiate sports.

It's not the end-all, be-all, but there is a reason that Hofstra and Northeastern folded football, UMass is moving FBS and Rhode Island is moving to the NEC. The economic feasibility has not been there for those universities, and its hard to suddenly see it being different for UNH. Your note that you don't think pushing for two additional flights is going to blow the budget out of proportion, and you're probably right, but that implies that UNH was satisfied with the current loss situation, and I'm not sure that's true, though you'd know better than myself.

Personally, I think there's a tremendous amount of pressure to win a national championship and really cement UNH as a program. That's certainly the most preferable situation for me. :)

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

It's not the end-all, be-all, but there is a reason that Hofstra and Northeastern folded football, UMass is moving FBS and Rhode Island is moving to the NEC. The economic feasibility has not been there for those universities, and its hard to suddenly see it being different for UNH. Your note that you don't think pushing for two additional flights is going to blow the budget out of proportion, and you're probably right, but that implies that UNH was satisfied with the current loss situation, and I'm not sure that's true, though you'd know better than myself.

Personally, I think there's a tremendous amount of pressure to win a national championship and really cement UNH as a program. That's certainly the most preferable situation for me. :)

Sorry, but I see things a little differently with those four schools and a lot more than "economic feasibility" involved.

Northeastern:Three attempts to build a new stadium (they had the money to build them) were stymied by Mayor Mumbles. That was followed up by Mumbles trying to "coerce" NU into fixing up City Stadium. NU chose not to deal with Boston politics and felt they couldn't compete at the highest level without a new stadium so it drops football. They also chose not to play in the Pioneer or NEC leagues.

Hofstra: The program was killed by an anti-football, anti-athletics president a la Sibler at Boston University.

Rhode Island: Had been trying to reduce scholarships for at least a decade or longer. Doesn't possess the institutional fortitude (my term) to play football at the highest level of FCS.

UMass: Has wanted to play at the FBS level for decades. Finally got a gift horse from Mr. Kraft making it feasible.

I just think each program had unique circumstances and there isn't some common economic thread that means UNH has to go down one of their routes. xtwocentsx

BTW, I've never heard about any significant pressure on the program to win a national championship. Of course it's what everybody wants, but at the same time I think everybody is pretty realistic about expectations due to our facilities, location, academic standards, etc.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Four different schools, all at one point or another in the Yankee Conference. Four different visions of football. Six, if you count UNH and Maine. Seven, if you count the divergent vision of football that the CAA has/had.

As long as football is tied to basketball conferences and revenue models, this will continue. Some will move to FBS, some will drop football, some will muddle along. Who cares if they're "unique circumstances"? The end result is the same: football dying in the Northeast.

[Sader87]

Four different schools, all at one point or another in the Yankee Conference. Four different visions of football. Six, if you count UNH and Maine. Seven, if you count the divergent vision of football that the CAA has/had.

As long as football is tied to basketball conferences and revenue models, this will continue. Some will move to FBS, some will drop football, some will muddle along. Who cares if they're "unique circumstances"? The end result is the same: FCS football is dying in the Northeast.

Fixed it for ya....see ya' in the NESCAC

[bkrownd]

Sorry, but I see things a little differently with those four schools and a lot more than "economic feasibility" involved.

Northeastern:Three attempts to build a new stadium (they had the money to build them) were stymied by Mayor Mumbles. That was followed up by Mumbles trying to "coerce" NU into fixing up City Stadium. NU chose not to deal with Boston politics and felt they couldn't compete at the highest level without a new stadium so it drops football. They also chose not to play in the Pioneer or NEC leagues.

Hofstra: The program was killed by an anti-football, anti-athletics president a la Sibler at Boston University.

Rhode Island: Had been trying to reduce scholarships for at least a decade or longer. Doesn't possess the institutional fortitude (my term) to play football at the highest level of FCS.

UMass: Has wanted to play at the FBS level for decades. Finally got a gift horse from Mr. Kraft making it feasible.


Vermont: Became too busy touring with the Grateful Dead to field a team. Silly hippies!

[aceinthehole]

First, I think UNHAlumInCT makes a great case for UNH staying in the CAA. What he says has been mirrored in the press by the UNH Administration - they VALUE memebrship in the CAA and feel it is best for their program. UNH certainly can compete and I doubt flights to 3 out of 4 of their road conference games alone is going to sway them to leave the CAA.

The PL is not an option for UNH unless they allow scholarships AND eliminate the AI. I think most PL fans would agree that isn't hapeing in the next decade.

The NEC at 40 is also a no-go for UNH. If we could get to 60, UNH might consider it, but our members don't really align with their institutional desires. They do not want to play in a conference with the likes of Sacred Heart, Wagner, RMU, and St. Francis. They want to expose themselves in the Mid-Atlantic region and be peers with W&M, Delaware, Richmond, etc.

Also, I think people too often lump schools together based on the conference membership alone. Northeastern is very different than UNH. Maine and Vermont don't have the same plan for athletics. URI and UMAss are rivals, but have grown into 2 very different schools. Even Albany and Stony Brook aren't so similar.

The fact is each school is going to do what's best for itself. Conferences are a means to an end, it is not the primary focus of any athletic department (except, maybe the Ivy).

[DFW HOYA]

The PL is not an option for UNH unless they allow scholarships AND eliminate the AI. I think most PL fans would agree that isn't hapeing in the next decade.

Well, it almost has to change or the PL runs the risk of not being around in the next decade.

By all accounts, Fordham could give a one-year's notice as soon as the end of 2011, leaving it at the NCAA minimum of six. The day Georgetown looks to another conference to be more competitive or the day that Colgate takes a flyer to support scholarship football, the PL is finished because there are no expansion candidates willing to wear the twin yokes of non-scholarship and AI-restricted admission. This is why LFN has argued for a more adaptive form of conference membership because some of these schools will be in a real bind if the PL does not function as a football conference and the other Eastern conferences are, for more or less, full.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Well, it almost has to change or the PL runs the risk of not being around in the next decade.

By all accounts, Fordham could give a one-year's notice as soon as the end of 2011, leaving it at the NCAA minimum of six. The day Georgetown looks to another conference to be more competitive or the day that Colgate takes a flyer to support scholarship football, the PL is finished because there are no expansion candidates willing to wear the twin yokes of non-scholarship and AI-restricted admission. This is why LFN has argued for a more adaptive form of conference membership because some of these schools will be in a real bind if the PL does not function as a football conference and the other Eastern conferences are, for more or less, full.

Arguing for it is the easy part, how to make it happen is the difficult part. How do you get the Patriot League to change? How do you get a new league started? How do you get the Patriot, the NEC and the America East to cooperate and jointly administer his three leagues? Or get the NEC and the Patriot to administer all three because seriously I don't know how you get America East involved. I can visualize a creative partnership between America East and the CAA to better organize the football and basketball schools. Would the NCAA allow that? Unless some one figures out the "how", then the choices will remain:

NEC: 40 Scholarships max, but not much room left.
Pioneer: No scholarships, maybe has room if divisions are formed.
Patriot: No scholarships and a stringent AI. Plenty of room, but good luck getting an invite.
CAA: Full scholarship, not sure any expansion will occur until GMU and VCU make their decision on football.
Big South: Full Scholarship, but more travel than in the CAA unless a few northern teams join.

[aceinthehole]

Well, it almost has to change or the PL [football sponsorship] runs the risk of not being around in the next decade.

By all accounts, Fordham could give a one-year's notice as soon as the end of 2011, leaving it at the NCAA minimum of six. The day Georgetown looks to another conference to be more competitive or the day that Colgate takes a flyer to support scholarship football, the PL [football] is finished because there are no expansion candidates willing to wear the twin yokes of non-scholarship and AI-restricted admission. This is why LFN has argued for a more adaptive form of conference membership because some of these schools will be in a real bind if the PL does not function as a football conference and the other Eastern conferences are, for more or less, full.

Correction. My opinion is the PL, as a conference isn't, going anywhere soon, although it is entirely possibly that they might stop sponsoring football as a conference sport, ala the MAAC.

If the PL no longers sponsors football then each team can seek affiliate membership wherever they choose (PFL, NEC, CAA, Big South, or Indy). Lehigh-Lafayette will continue to be played even if it's not a league game. Colgate can schedule a mix of former PL teams along with CAA and NEC programs, and a FBS game. Georgetown can join Marist and Drake in the PFL, or the even the NEC if they desire. Fordham can join the Big South with Stony Brook.

Sorry, but this isn't the end of the football in the Northeast as LFN would like us to think. And beacuse this scenario isn't likely to spell doom for longstanding PL football programs, I have no reason to think the PL, as a conference, will vote to alter the scholarship or AI policy just to continue sponsoring the sport. There are options for all the PL memeber football programs outside of PL sponsorship. The PL will live on, its just their football programs might have to grow apart.

[Jackman]

Sorry, but I see things a little differently with those four schools and a lot more than "economic feasibility" involved.

Northeastern:Three attempts to build a new stadium (they had the money to build them) were stymied by Mayor Mumbles. That was followed up by Mumbles trying to "coerce" NU into fixing up City Stadium. NU chose not to deal with Boston politics and felt they couldn't compete at the highest level without a new stadium so it drops football. They also chose not to play in the Pioneer or NEC leagues.

Hofstra: The program was killed by an anti-football, anti-athletics president a la Sibler at Boston University.

Rhode Island: Had been trying to reduce scholarships for at least a decade or longer. Doesn't possess the institutional fortitude (my term) to play football at the highest level of FCS.

UMass: Has wanted to play at the FBS level for decades. Finally got a gift horse from Mr. Kraft making it feasible.


Vermont: Became too busy touring with the Grateful Dead to field a team. Silly hippies!

Connecticut: Got a golden ticket from the BCS.
Boston University: See Hofstra.
Villanova: See UConn, maybe.

I think UNH will be fine remaining where it is, so long as they keep winning. The danger for them is that their success is based on a few select individuals running the program, not on facilities, high attendance or favorable recruiting grounds. If the wrong people are put in the coaching staff or athletic administration and the team suffers, the financial realities aren't going to change, but the URI-type defeatists are going to start out-shouting the supporters. UNH and URI are very similar, other than what happens between the endzones and the sidelines. UNH fans need to start preparing countermeasures for the days when UNH stops winning. I foresee them getting very short notice about major changes being considered, such as switching to the NEC. Since you can't chain your coach to his office and you can't airlift the campus and relocate it to a football hotbed, I think you need to build facilities that are simply too good to be moved to a partial or non-scholarship conference.

The other thing that would help UNH is if the PL splits over scholarships. Then they might have the critical mass to form a new conference with the Patsies and the SUNYs. I consider that a long shot for now though.

[Dane96]

Thinking outside of the box I mean thinking way out of the box.
Instead of looking south maybe its time for UNH and Maine to look North
accross the border and team up with teams in the ASU
Schools that are much closer to them , lends a international flavor
and more exposure , granted rules would have to be adjusted
But traval would be cut , along with the schools in ASu there also schools in Montreal.
that have great traditions , McGill and Concordia etc.
Go North Lad !!!! An there is also the possibilty of a National Championship !!!!!
Think about it.

2010 Football Standings
GP W L Pct. Home Road PF PA +/- Pts
Saint Mary's 8 5 3 0.625 3-1 2-2 228 124 104 10
Mount Allison 8 4 4 0.500 3-1 1-3 157 196 -39 8
Acadia 8 4 4 0.500 2-2 2-2 134 154 -20 8
StFX

Aside from the fact that none of these are NCAA schools, you do realize how far the border is from Durham, NH...don't you?

[Maroon&White]

Aside from the fact that none of these are NCAA schools, you do realize how far the border is from Durham, NH...don't you?

I know you were responding about the Atlantic Provinces schools, but regarding McGill and Concordia, Durham is closer to Montreal than Orono xlolx

[Jackman]

Well, they're closer to the Quebec border than Orono. UMass is closer to Montreal than Orono. I'd have loved for UMass to play the Montreal teams, that's a great trip.

[Wildcat80]

Re: will UMass keep playing UNH? We might find that a UNH game at Gillette draws more than ANY MAC team on the schedule. If that happens there would be a very good chance it continues.

[bkrownd]

Re: will UMass keep playing UNH? We might find that a UNH game at Gillette draws more than ANY MAC team on the schedule. If that happens there would be a very good chance it continues.

a) What price will UNH want to be paid to visit our "home" stadium?
b) Will our administration be too afraid of losing to UNH?
c) Will our administration actively try to make people forget our I-AA/college division past?

Hope we play a lot of games against our old Yankee buddies. I miss the UNH lacrosse team, too.

[Jackman]

UNH demands a minimum of $300,000 to make an appearance without a return game.
Unless we have trouble scheduling 5 home games, it's probably not a good deal for us, especially during the early days. May as well take $1 million to show up at Penn State without a return game and spend it on facilities improvements. Plus we know better than anyone what UNH does to FBS teams. Let some other fool schedule them, and I'll cheer for UNH to show them what happens when you underestimate the Yankee Conference.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

UNH demands a minimum of $300,000 to make an appearance without a return game.
Unless we have trouble scheduling 5 home games, it's probably not a good deal for us, especially during the early days. May as well take $1 million to show up at Penn State without a return game and spend it on facilities improvements. Plus we know better than anyone what UNH does to FBS teams. Let some other fool schedule them, and I'll cheer for UNH to show them what happens when you underestimate the Yankee Conference.

I was having similar thoughts about how UMass probably wouldn't be willing to pay what we could receive from the usual FBS game. But I don't know when you factor in the intangible benefits and bus game reduced expenses what the "break even" fee might be? xconfusedx But I've also wondered about those years when FCS can play 12 games, if UNH might be interested in playing UMass as a 2nd FBS game? Or if there were some years where UNH might play a 2nd FBS if a UMass game could be arranged? (I'm thinking the $300K issue wouldn't come into play for that UMass game.)

I haven't heard anything about future FBS games for UNH after Minnesota in 2012. If we can't get other FBS games, then maybe an agreement with UMass might be feasible? From what I've heard we've previously turned down games with Florida and Oklahoma so I don't think you'll see us playing any of the upper level, football factory, semi-pro type BCS teams. And so far I haven't heard any rumblings of Rutgers, Northwestern, Marshall, Army or Ball State wanting an opportunity for some pay back.

The next couple of years will be interesting with so many FBS schools having already full schedules that starting home and homes with Army, Navy, Syracuse, Rutgers, etc. or big pay day road games with Penn State, Michigan, etc. might not be feasible. Even looking at UNH's schedule, I'm assuming we need a home OOC game in 2012 after going to Minny and Holy Cross. And in 2013 we already have Colgate and at URI scheduled so UMass would have to be our primary FBS game. In 2014 we already have Dartmouth and URI at home. Although I don't recall the 12 game seasons for FCS.

And I can certainly understand any UMass apprehension because you can be certain that adding the FBS vs. FCS factor would ramp up motivation in the Wildcat camp to even higher levels.