LFN: The Big East's Cruel Joke on Villanova

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/big-easts-cruel-joke-on-villanova.html

It is, indeed, a cruel joke that the Big East has made on Villanova. It's not a conspiracy, but they've put Villanova in an awful position of not being able to really win, whether they institute FBS football or not.

[GannonFan]

Well, to just nitpick one thing, why is it so incredibly important that the basketball conference be an even number and why is it important to only have 3 OOC games in football? In basketball, there isn't something scary anout an odd number - the Big 10, Mountain West, and WAC (at least of the ones I know off the top of my head) have played with an odd number of conference teams and the world hasn't ended for any of those conferences. This isn't the Ivy League where games are just on Friday and Sunday and teams have travelling partners - there are games on any day of the week and not shockingly, schedule makers don't struggle to put it together. And really, unbalanced schedules? The Big East has had unbalanced schedules for forever now, and whole slew of conferences have followed suit (heck, even the CAA has unbalanced schedules in both basketball and football). Why the Big East would be all aflutter now because of unbalanced schedules is beyond me.

From the football side of things, I don't understand the bugaboo with 4 OOC games - BCS teams love having more games because that means more gate money. The Big Ten played for years with 4 OOC games and I don't think they were upset about it (heck, even with adding Nebraska I think they are still going with 4 OOC games - that's an extra home game and gate for everyone). At the FCS level or small FBS level, of course teams want to limit the number of games they need to find outside of the conference, but it's not like Penn State is struggling to find a taker to come to State College to play them - the line of teams who would die for a payday like that is pretty long.

For those reasons above, I don't see either an odd number of b-ball teams or a "non-ideal" number of football teams being a driver for the Big East to now snub nova. I think the more realistic scenario is the Big East was hoping (unrealistically) that nova could raise enough money and/or find a piece of land on which to build a legit stadium or to somehow talk the Eagles into letting them play at the Linc. nova probably tried and the best they could come up with was PPL. And maybe before TCU coming aboard that may have been good enough. Now, with TCU, the Big East football doesn't need a welfare case like nova would be financially. That's more likely than the Big East being worried about imbalanced schedules or an odd number of b-ball teams.

[bluehenbillk]

From the football side of things, I don't understand the bugaboo with 4 OOC games - BCS teams love having more games because that means more gate money. The Big Ten played for years with 4 OOC games and I don't think they were upset about it (heck, even with adding Nebraska I think they are still going with 4 OOC games - that's an extra home game and gate for everyone). At the FCS level or small FBS level, of course teams want to limit the number of games they need to find outside of the conference, but it's not like Penn State is struggling to find a taker to come to State College to play them - the line of teams who would die for a payday like that is pretty long.

I think the more realistic scenario is the Big East was hoping (unrealistically) that nova could raise enough money and/or find a piece of land on which to build a legit stadium or to somehow talk the Eagles into letting them play at the Linc. nova probably tried and the best they could come up with was PPL. And maybe before TCU coming aboard that may have been good enough. Now, with TCU, the Big East football doesn't need a welfare case like nova would be financially. That's more likely than the Big East being worried about imbalanced schedules or an odd number of b-ball teams.

I'd agree with those points.

[bostonspider]

I would think if you are not going to 12 members, 9 is the perfect size for a football conference. 4 home and 4 away, and you play everyone.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well, to just nitpick one thing, why is it so incredibly important that the basketball conference be an even number and why is it important to only have 3 OOC games in football? In basketball, there isn't something scary anout an odd number - the Big 10, Mountain West, and WAC (at least of the ones I know off the top of my head) have played with an odd number of conference teams and the world hasn't ended for any of those conferences.

You can't be serious that the Big Ten, MWC and WAC were just peachy keen with 11 conference members. The WAC is on life support, the MWC is doing the conference shuffle and the Big Ten just expanded so they didn't have eleven teams anymore. Only the Big Ten's future is assured of all three conferences, and that's more due to history rather than anything else.

As for basketball conferences with an odd number of teams, ask any Big Sky member how it's worked with Northern Colorado. They've been dying to get an even number of teams. And that's just with nine, not the unprecedented seventeen-team Big East.

[DFW HOYA]

If Villanova announced it had a deal at the Linc, this is a done deal.

The Big East has always expected schools to play in representative facilities. Nearly thirty years ago, the BE legislated Georgetown's aging, unrenovated McDonough Gymnasium out of hosting ANY Big East games, and there hasn't been an on-campus conference game as a result. Why? Too small.

Put another way, if Georgia State tried to join the CAA by telling them they'd play in a 4,000 seat high school stadium in midtown Atlanta, do you think the CAA schools would raise this as an issue?

[Sec310]

You can't be serious that the Big Ten, MWC and WAC were just peachy keen with 11 conference members. The WAC is on life support, the MWC is doing the conference shuffle and the Big Ten just expanded so they didn't have eleven teams anymore. Only the Big Ten's future is assured of all three conferences, and that's more due to history rather than anything else.

As for basketball conferences with an odd number of teams, ask any Big Sky member how it's worked with Northern Colorado. They've been dying to get an even number of teams. And that's just with nine, not the unprecedented seventeen-team Big East.

When did the MWC or the WAC ever have 11 members?

WAC had 10 then went to 16, down to 8 then added 2.

MWC started with 8, added 1, then lost two, added 1, then will add 2.

Having an odd number of teams in a conference, for hoops, means one team is always off or playing a non conference game.

[bojeta]

I checked out both stadiums mentioned and I checked to see the difference in capacity as well as cost of construction. Roughly 50,000 fewer seats!!! Even if the average ticket price were only $20, that translates into potentially $1 million bucks a game. Next is the cost of building a similar stadium. The Linc apparently cost $512 MILLION to build!!! I seriously doubt Villanova's trustees are going approve even 1/2 that figure. I can see where this got real iffy on the Big East's part.

[TheValleyRaider]

You can't be serious that the Big Ten, MWC and WAC were just peachy keen with 11 conference members. The WAC is on life support, the MWC is doing the conference shuffle and the Big Ten just expanded so they didn't have eleven teams anymore. Only the Big Ten's future is assured of all three conferences, and that's more due to history rather than anything else.

Yeah, but those conferences' respective problems aren't related to their having an odd number of teams

The Big 10 wanted a 12th because it would allow them to have a conference title game and the $$$ that goes with it. Odd numbers wouldn't be ideal, but in the Big 10's case, they don't lack for reasonably desireable alternatives (except of course the one they want: Notre Dame)

The Mountain West was fine at 9, but the siren song of BCS conferences (Utah/Pac-12 and TCU/Big East) and ESPN money (BYU) broke that conference up. Had they added Boise and BYU stays, TCU may not jump to the Big East seeing a good opportunity to make the Mountain West a BCS league

The WAC is getting hurt by not having a stronger conference (leads to Boise leaving), and then watching a diminished MWC raid their better members

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If Villanova announced it had a deal at the Linc, this is a done deal.

The Big East has always expected schools to play in representative facilities. Nearly thirty years ago, the BE legislated Georgetown's aging, unrenovated McDonough Gymnasium out of hosting ANY Big East games, and there hasn't been an on-campus conference game as a result. Why? Too small.

Put another way, if Georgia State tried to join the CAA by telling them they'd play in a 4,000 seat high school stadium in midtown Atlanta, do you think the CAA schools would raise this as an issue?

A fair point. However, PPL Park is neither aging nor unrenovated. It's in a spankin' new stadium that quite frankly is incredibly telegenic. If TV were the biggest concern, it would be no contest: PPL Park would be a much better-looking stadium for TV than aging, (basically) unrenovated Franklin Field or the cavernous Linc for Nova games.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yeah, but those conferences' respective problems aren't related to their having an odd number of teams

Agreed, there are clearly other, um, issues with those conferences (WAC and MWC), basically that they're a revolving door for teams. In those conferences, I imagine the questions in the league office don't center around scheduling, it's about survival. Then again, they don't have sixteen disparate members to keep happy, either.

[TheValleyRaider]

Agreed, there are clearly other, um, issues with those conferences (WAC and MWC), basically that they're a revolving door for teams. In those conferences, I imagine the questions in the league office don't center around scheduling, it's about survival. Then again, they don't have sixteen disparate members to keep happy, either.

Yes, but you were the one who tried to draw in their having odd numbers. I agree that there are issues with the WAC and MWC, but they have nothing to do with having an odd number of teams. The number is irrelevant in light of the necessity of maintaining an actual membership, except in the case of the Big 10, where things are pretty good. Actually, the MWC might be headed in the right direction since I don't see any of the current or future members leaving now. The WAC, on the other hand....

[Keeper]

No cruel joke here.
VU officials know it is a long shot,
and Big East is complimentary at allowing their own member a valiant attempt to move up. No hard feelings there.
It is what it is. Not that the BEC has a lot of candidates
anyway, and wants to cushion itself from further raids.

Expansion only makes sense to better the league for all
concerned, and everyone is aware of that.

The move-up study may even introduce more focus on the football program in the future as a whole, and strengthen their position in the FCS.

[henfan]

The move-up study may even introduce more focus on the football program in the future as a whole, and strengthen their position in the FCS.

From the fans or administration? If you're suggesting that getting spurned a second time is somehow going to create enthusiasm among VU fans for FCS FB, I think you're going to be sadly disappointed. And if the study creates any sort of focus from the admin, it may not be the kind of focus I think you're expecting, if history is any indication. This is an FCS program that has bled red ink and has not gotten any big bumps in support even with a National Championship.

I agree with Gannonfan that VU FB will be in a tenuous position if they don't somehow find a way to reclassify now. I won't go so far as to suggest that the program will be doomed to elimination but this will not help.

[aceinthehole]

And really, unbalanced schedules? The Big East has had unbalanced schedules for forever now, and whole slew of conferences have followed suit (heck, even the CAA has unbalanced schedules in both basketball and football). Why the Big East would be all aflutter now because of unbalanced schedules is beyond me.

Yep, even the NEC plays an "unblanced" basketball schedule. The NEC has 12 teams and plays an 18-game schedule.

- Each team plays 7 opponents twice (home/away) for a total 14 games.
- Each team plays 2 opponents once (home) for a total of 2 games.
- Each team plays 2 opponents once (away) for a total of 2 games.

Basically, any league with more than 10 teams will have an 'unbalanced' schedule for basketball.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yep, even the NEC plays an "unblanced" basketball schedule. The NEC has 12 teams and plays an 18-game schedule.

- Each team plays 7 opponents twice (home/away) for a total 14 games.
- Each team plays 2 opponents once (home) for a total of 2 games.
- Each team plays 2 opponents once (away) for a total of 2 games.

Basically, any league with more than 10 teams will have an 'unbalanced' schedule for basketball.

But with an even number of teams, every team is playing a conference game at the end of the season. With an odd number your don't have that, and it's a scheduling nightmare in basketball. It's not a picnic in football, either, but more manageable - that's my nine football teams is seen as "ideal" by some.

[GannonFan]

But with an even number of teams, every team is playing a conference game at the end of the season. With an odd number your don't have that, and it's a scheduling nightmare in basketball. It's not a picnic in football, either, but more manageable - that's my nine football teams is seen as "ideal" by some.

Scheduling nightmare??? It's not like these leagues are sitting in the basement of one of the AD's and they are using pencil and paper to come up with schedules while munching on some pretzels. It's not really all that hard to come up schedules for any number of teams - there are spreadsheets out there galore that cover that. I think you're stretching the point beyond reason when you try to say that 16 or 17 different Universities of higher learning can't somehow come up with the resources and the know-how to put togther a decent basketball schedule.

[DFW HOYA]

I think you're stretching the point beyond reason when you try to say that 16 or 17 different Universities of higher learning can't somehow come up with the resources and the know-how to put togther a decent basketball schedule.

17 teams= play every team once (eight home, eight away), reverse it the following year. Actually, fairly simple.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

17 teams= play every team once (eight home, eight away), reverse it the following year. Actually, fairly simple.

Simple, but less easy than you think. Seeding for the Big East Tournament, for example, would be real interesting since you'd only be playing each other team once. Was Georgetown's win at home over UConn more more impressive that Villanova's win on the road at West Virginia? Was Syracuses' loss at Cincinnati worse than St. John's loss at Louisville?

I know how much of a fan of computer rankings GF is (xlolx). Well, be prepared to see them a lot with seventeen team basketball conferences. Tiebreaking, already a challenge, would become even more challenging.

[GannonFan]

Simple, but less easy than you think. Seeding for the Big East Tournament, for example, would be real interesting since you'd only be playing each other team once. Was Georgetown's win at home over UConn more more impressive that Villanova's win on the road at West Virginia? Was Syracuses' loss at Cincinnati worse than St. John's loss at Louisville?

I know how much of a fan of computer rankings GF is (xlolx). Well, be prepared to see them a lot with seventeen team basketball conferences. Tiebreaking, already a challenge, would become even more challenging.

I don't get this - this is already the current state of the Big East right now. They've had an unbalanced schedule for years. Haven't you noticed? And like other posters have said, plenty of other conferences do too. Very few conferences anymore have it where everyone plays everyone else the same number of times and in the same venues. And really, the thing you're worried about it the seeding for the conference tournaments? Eleven teams from the Big East just made the NCAA's - do you think they were heartbroken over how the #6 seed in their conference tournament was decided? Being a CAA guy, I can tell you right now that I care little how the CAA decides to award it's autobid for football - it's a minor detail and doesn't stop anyone who doesn't get it from being in the playoffs.

[Wildcat80]

I don't care about nova one way or the other.....I for one though would bet that TCU does NOT go undefeated in BE play their 1st year! Better teams.....alot of travel.....thursday night games.....tough to do.

[TheValleyRaider]

I for one though would bet that TCU does NOT go undefeated in BE play their 1st year! Better teams.....alot of travel.....thursday night games.....tough to do.

TCU would have run the table in 2010, and would probably be the conference favorite in 2011. They faced good teams, travelled to the other coast (UNLV and San Diego St. aren't any closer than Syracuse and Pitt) and played on Thursday nights. The Big East is not really that big a step up from the Mountain West

[Tubby Raymond]

I"m just happy somebody was pulling novas chain, giving them false hope.

[Pard4Life]

I was at a Union soccer match at PPL Park recently. I kept asking myself in disbelief that they want Villanova to play there. It seats 20,000, and will get extremely bitter in late fall as it sits on the river. The traffic was absurd. We were out relatively quickly to our car and it took 35 minutes to get on 95. There are really three ways into the parking lots. And you do want to park there if you want your car back. The area is practically a ghetto. No sports bars or entertainment. Casino a mile or so up the road. It's an industrial strip. There is room outside the stadium for congregating on plazas, but the entire environment is the antithesis of college football. In extremely unlikely event Rutgers is a top-five team playing at PPL Park, or Pitt, what a disaster! Expanding and playing in Murray Badman Stadium in Bethlehem would be a better option...

[Wildcat80]

I was at a Union soccer match at PPL Park recently. I kept asking myself in disbelief that they want Villanova to play there. It seats 20,000, and will get extremely bitter in late fall as it sits on the river. The traffic was absurd. We were out relatively quickly to our car and it took 35 minutes to get on 95. There are really three ways into the parking lots. And you do want to park there if you want your car back. The area is practically a ghetto. No sports bars or entertainment. Casino a mile or so up the road. It's an industrial strip. There is room outside the stadium for congregating on plazas, but the entire environment is the antithesis of college football. In extremely unlikely event Rutgers is a top-five team playing at PPL Park, or Pitt, what a disaster! Expanding and playing in Murray Badman Stadium in Bethlehem would be a better option...

I have never been there...just thru Chester on I95....but I see enough to know NOT to exit there! Why not buy 25+ acres nearer nova and build a sports complex? Then use current stadium for academic buildings??

[superman7515]

I doubt Radnor Township would approve the zoning with the overall lack of infrastructure that would be required for that many people to congregate at once.