Why does Richmond like the A10 so much ?

[Tim James]

The A10 isnt much better in basketball than the CAA is anymore and they have more local rivals in the CAA so it seems like a no brainer they should be in the CAA for all sports but they seem stubborn about it. Watching their neighbors from VCU make such an incredible run should be the eye opener.

[jmufan999]

they seem stubborn about it.

you nailed it.

[DFW HOYA]

The CAA was a much different animal a decade ago, which is why UR left.

In 2000, the CAA had just three I-AA football schools (UR, W&M, JMU, all playing in the A-10) and a remainder group which included American, East Carolina, UNCW, Mason, ODU, and VCU. East Carolina and American had already given notice to leave and there was real concern that what amounted to a Virginia-only conference would not be able to support a high level of athletics in the future. William Cooper, the UR president who later tried to push the Spiders to the Patriot and lost his job soon thereafter, argued that the A-10 footprint (before it expanded west) provided Richmond more visibility with its admissions and alumni base in the Northeast, and that antagonized the other CAA schools left behind.

The CAA responded by adding Delaware, Drexel, Towson, Northeastern, Georgia State, and Hofstra a year later.

[GannonFan]

The CAA being the equal to the A10 in basketball is a fairly new phenomenon, as in, as fairly new as just a few hours ago. This is the first year in the past decade when you can really say the CAA is just as good as the A10. When Richmond left, it was definitely moving up in terms of bball. Kudos to the CAA for making the steps to get equal.

[WestCoastAggie]

Looking at the budgets of CAA Schools, I am not surprised how the conference caught up with the A-10 basketball wise.

Some of the schools, I believe spend as much as some Mtn. West and C-USA programs.

Check out ope.ed.gov.
xreadx

[VUCats02]

The A-10 has been and always will be a better basketball conference than the CAA (assuming no changes to the conferences any time soon). This year was an exception, although the A-10 was still a little bit better this year than the CAA - and that's in a down year for the A-10 and an up-year for the CAA.

[bluehenbillk]

The A-10 has been and always will be a better basketball conference than the CAA (assuming no changes to the conferences any time soon). This year was an exception, although the A-10 was still a little bit better this year than the CAA - and that's in a down year for the A-10 and an up-year for the CAA.

That comment just drips of Big East ignorance. There is very little difference between the top teams in the CAA & the A-10. Heck, there's not a lot of difference in the bottom teams either. I'll give the A-10 a slight nod in having more "decent" teams overall than the CAA but otherwise they're pretty much even. If two Final Fours in 5 years doesn't convince you than nothing will, but I'd expect not much less from a stubborn 'Nova fan.

[JMUDuke2002]

The A10 isnt much better in basketball than the CAA is anymore and they have more local rivals in the CAA so it seems like a no brainer they should be in the CAA for all sports but they seem stubborn about it. Watching their neighbors from VCU make such an incredible run should be the eye opener.

You also have to take into consideration that UR is not a Virginia school, but a school in Virginia. Unlike VCU, GMU, ODU, WM, and JMU, 75% or more of UR's student body is from out-of-state. Most of their students in fact come from the Northeast, traditionally the A-10's base. The CAA is now composed, mainly, of large state supported institutions. UR's profile is more closely aligned to the A-10 schools. CAA schools, in Virginia at least, have great rivalries because we all have friends, family, and co-workers who attend or attended one of the other state schools.

Remember, Va Tech and UVA only account for 40,000 undergraduates in Virginia. VCU, JMU, WM, ODU, and GMU account for over 100,000 undergraduates in Virginia. More VA students go to CAA schools. So, it makes sense that the rivalries are great just because of the student body make-up. I for one can't wait to play ODU in football because it will make the JMU/ODU rivalry that much better. UR being in the A-10 makes perfect sense if you look at the school's demographics. Hell, it should be in the patriot league, which I assume will happen one day.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

You're constantly going to find people trying to work an angle to justify their position. What we have are the numbers now, which make the justification process more accurate that relying solely on ones own opinion.

And the facts don't lie.

The CAA had a great year, that is for sure. And the A10 was a mess. Yet both still got 3 bids. VCU getting into a play-in game was unexpected, even to CAA fans. I'm an active member on CAAzone and it was a near consensus even by the most passionate CAA fans that VCU was going to be left out. Luckily for them and their great fans, they got in and have had a great run. But that doesn't change the fact that up until Selection Sunday, it looked like the CAA would have only 2 teams in. Note we're talking about what even CAA fans consider their best year, and a year most A10 fans knew and it turned out to be a bad year.


More numbers:
RPI is something that CAA fans OFTEN use to defend their conference and say it's what makes them better than the other mid-majors. But if one is to accept this premise, then it has to be fully embraced. You can't say the RPI makes you better than other mid-majors because it's higher than others, and then dismiss RPI when it comes to the A10. The A10 has always, as this season, had a higher RPI than the CAA.

Bids:
The CAA got (2) at-large bids this year. That's the most ever for them, so one can argue that this is the best year for the CAA. But you can still count on 1 hand how many at-large bids the CAA has gotten in it's history. Meanwhile, the A10 has had as many as 5 in a given year and routinely has multiple at-large bids. Historically, the A10 has as many or more at-large bids than some conferences you would expect to be higher.

Cream at the Top:
CAA fans will argue that their top programs are better than the a10 top programs. I would disagree. Xavier, Temple are clearly at a level higher than any CAA school. When you factor in other criteria, one can make an argument that Dayton, Richmond, St. Louis and Charlotte as well. There are a number of factors to consider like attendance, facilities and most importantly, tradition and consistency. But even more, you can't point your fingers and say "CAA top programs are better than A10 top programs" because in saying that, you are saying that "it's the bottom CAA programs that are the problem". But with 14 members, the A10 is always in a spot to have lower ranked programs each year. And frankly, the A10 bottom schools aren't great by any means.




It's not to take away from the CAA. They had a great year and their fans should be proud. College basketball should be proud since the sport had a real down year in quality, which opened up more parity. A 3, 4, 8 and 11 seed in the final four is pretty much what one could expect this year since it was so wide open. Yet as fans, we're almost locked into the idea that the top seeds are supposed to be better. That wasn't the case before the tourney started this year, and isn't now.

But when it comes to ranking a conference, there are expectations to grasp. And until decades go by where a conference is expected to have X number of at-large bids, it would be foolish to throw away reality. The A10 is expected to have 2-3 teams in every year. The CAA is expected to have 1. In time that might change. But it's just as likely based on historical trends that the CAA returns to being a 1-2 bid league. But rest assure, there will still be CAA fans that would argue the A10 is weaker even if that happens. In the meantime, the CAA needs real momentum. They need to grow EVERY year. Mason had a nice run in 2008. Lots of momentum, right? Well, they had 0 autobids the next year in 2009 (11 seed). No worries, they turned it around the next year, right? No, 0 autobids (winner got 11 seed).

2011 was a great year for the CAA with 3 bids...but it needs to be the start of momentum, not an anomaly, before anyone can start having any serious conversations about the CAA being even on the same page as the A10.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

The CAA was a much different animal a decade ago, which is why UR left.

In 2000...The CAA responded by adding...Northeastern, Georgia State...a year later.

Northeastern and Georgia State joined in 2005.

[Tim James]

As a neutral fan it just seems like a no brainer that Richmond and Charlotte should be in the CAA for all sports just like St. Louis should be in the MVC. Yes the A10 is better than the CAA and MVC but its not a huge huge gap anymore and because its not then I have no idea why these schools wouldnt want less travel distances for their teams. Xavier and Dayton can stay in the A10 since they are close to Pittsburgh (Duquense) and theres no place else for them to go without it being a significant downgrade.

[Tim James]

Also Temple is supposed to be the "cream of the crop" of the A10 yet they never come close to doing what GMU and VCU did. They are usually a 1 and done or 1 win team (post Cheaney era) at most. Xavier has carried the league in terms of deep tournament runs (minus St. Joe's 1 year run)and thats what, 1 team out of 14 ? Thats a poor percentage.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

College basketball should be proud since the sport had a real down year in quality, which opened up more parity. A 3, 4, 8 and 11 seed in the final four is pretty much what one could expect this year since it was so wide open. Yet as fans, we're almost locked into the idea that the top seeds are supposed to be better. That wasn't the case before the tourney started this year, and isn't now.

But when it comes to ranking a conference, there are expectations to grasp. And until decades go by where a conference is expected to have X number of at-large bids, it would be foolish to throw away reality. The A10 is expected to have 2-3 teams in every year. The CAA is expected to have 1. In time that might change. But it's just as likely based on historical trends that the CAA returns to being a 1-2 bid league. But rest assure, there will still be CAA fans that would argue the A10 is weaker even if that happens. In the meantime, the CAA needs real momentum. They need to grow EVERY year. Mason had a nice run in 2008. Lots of momentum, right? Well, they had 0 autobids the next year in 2009 (11 seed). No worries, they turned it around the next year, right? No, 0 autobids (winner got 11 seed).

2011 was a great year for the CAA with 3 bids...but it needs to be the start of momentum, not an anomaly, before anyone can start having any serious conversations about the CAA being even on the same page as the A10.

It's real easy to say now that "A 3, 4, 8 and 11 seed in the final four is pretty much what one could expect this year since it was so wide open." Well, then, I'm sure you'll be happy to share your NCAA bracket, which obviously wouldn't include Ohio State and Kansas, and included UConn and Kentucky, and perhaps Butler, instead. Real, real easy to float in here now and say how "obvious" it was that the two most popular bracket teams wouldn't even make the Final Four.

Aside from that, though, in your world, it seems like in terms of "conference prestige" the records cease to matter as soon as the final regular-season RPI comes out and at-large bids for the NCAA tournament have been doled out. But nobody will remember the 2011 tournament as the one where the CAA and A-10 both got 3 seeds in with Xavier as the highest seed at No. 6. They're going to remember VCU and Butler playing in the Final Four, and that VCU is from the same conference that produced George Mason not all that long ago. If they think back real hard, they'll remember Richmond upset an overrated Vanderbilt team to help them get into the Sweet 16, and got drilled by Kansas - who got creamed by VCU.

And, yes, they DO see momentum. They see two Final Four teams from the CAA in the last six years, and they're going to hear about this all week long. And if VCU beats Butler, they'll hear about it even longer.

You act as if people obsess as much about RPI and seedings as we do. They don't. It's as if you're buried in spreadsheets about the RPI and ignoring the facts that are in plain sight in front of you. They see VCU in the Final Four. It really is that simple.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Also Temple is supposed to be the "cream of the crop" of the A10 yet they never come close to doing what GMU and VCU did. They are usually a 1 and done or 1 win team (post Cheaney era) at most. Xavier has carried the league in terms of deep tournament runs (minus St. Joe's 1 year run)and thats what, 1 team out of 14 ? Thats a poor percentage.

I have not forgotten Dunphy's embarrassment at the hands of Cornell two years ago when Butler was busy making it to the championship game. It eerily parallels Xavier's implosion against Marquette this year. Two relatively high seeds for the A-10, two flameouts.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

That comment just drips of Big East ignorance. There is very little difference between the top teams in the CAA & the A-10. Heck, there's not a lot of difference in the bottom teams either. I'll give the A-10 a slight nod in having more "decent" teams overall than the CAA but otherwise they're pretty much even. If two Final Fours in 5 years doesn't convince you than nothing will, but I'd expect not much less from a stubborn 'Nova fan.

Sorry, but the ignorance I see is in using irrelevant facts to support an argument.

These two final fours are nothing short of miracles and both teams should be commended for their success. But when a 12 seed makes it to the final four, and an 11 seed from a play-in round make it to the final four, it is hardly something that should be used to support an argument that a conference is at a higher tier than the numbers (RPI) dictate. It's instead a reflection on the luck of the draw, the bounce of the ball and most importantly, the drive by the players and coaches on those two teams.

It's like the foolish belief that a conference should be critiqued by the success they have in the tournament. I can't even count how many times I see foolish MB posts and tweets about people saying "X conference is actually bad because they had Y bids and lost Z games". Meanwhile, it most cases every year, it comes down to seeding and point spread. If an ACC team is seeded 8th and loses to a #1 seed, they were supposed to...a loss isn't an indicator on the conference: just the specific school in relation to THAT game against another school.

By saying "2 CAA final fours in 5 years" should have any merit, especially as they were #12 and #11 seeds, then how about the Horizon? I guess in supporting this statement about the CAA, then one would also need to accept that the Horizon with 2 final fours in (2) years is VASTLY superior to the CAA. And imagine if Butler were to win against VCU...it would mean 2 final game appearances in 2 years...so the Horizon must be more than TWICE as good as the CAA, right? I mean RPI must not matter, that the CAA is above the Horizon this one year, because the Horizon would not only have 2 final fours in 2 years, but two final appearances.

GMU had a great run. VCU has had and still is having a great run. And great for them. But it's not indicative of the conference when they were so low seeds. Had the conference been stronger, the CAA entrants would have been higher seeds. They weren't. The conference needs time and as mentioned above, momentum. I hope they find it and in doing so, it's like the WCC, A10 and Horizon have at the expense of the BCS conferences. The CAA succeeding is good for all of college basketball, just like it has been for those 3 other conferences. It helps even the playing field and maintain parity, something that helps the sport for us fans.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

As a neutral fan it just seems like a no brainer that Richmond and Charlotte should be in the CAA for all sports just like St. Louis should be in the MVC. Yes the A10 is better than the CAA and MVC but its not a huge huge gap anymore and because its not then I have no idea why these schools wouldnt want less travel distances for their teams. Xavier and Dayton can stay in the A10 since they are close to Pittsburgh (Duquense) and theres no place else for them to go without it being a significant downgrade.

I hear ya. And WVU and ACC should be in the ACC. BC should be in the Big East. Louisville and Memphis should be in the SEC. Cincy in the Big Ten. TCU in the Big 12. BYU in the Pac-10. When you use geography as the indicator for conference alignment, it makes sense. But when you factor in the economics, you see why conferences are what they are. There are too many external factors to consider like market penetration and it's effect on the TV contracts, which are the bulk of the conference revenues. For non-BCS conferences for basketball, the tournament shares are of most importance. As the A10 gets more bids, it means more money. And that's why Richmond, Charlotte, St. Louis, etc, are all in the A10. but the trickle down continues...it's why Northeastern is in the CAA rather than America East, because the 1.3 CAA bids is more than the 1 AE bid.

[UAalum72]

It's instead a reflection on the luck of the draw, the bounce of the ball and most importantly, the drive by the players and coaches on those two teams.
Or it's a reflection that the people making up the seeds don't know what they're doing other than going on past reputation. I mean, how many times do 'miracles' have to happen before they're not miracles any more?

[CollegeSportsInfo]

It's real easy to say now that "A 3, 4, 8 and 11 seed in the final four is pretty much what one could expect this year since it was so wide open." Well, then, I'm sure you'll be happy to share your NCAA bracket, which obviously wouldn't include Ohio State and Kansas, and included UConn and Kentucky, and perhaps Butler, instead. Real, real easy to float in here now and say how "obvious" it was that the two most popular bracket teams wouldn't even make the Final Four.

Aside from that, though, in your world, it seems like in terms of "conference prestige" the records cease to matter as soon as the final regular-season RPI comes out and at-large bids for the NCAA tournament have been doled out. But nobody will remember the 2011 tournament as the one where the CAA and A-10 both got 3 seeds in with Xavier as the highest seed at No. 6. They're going to remember VCU and Butler playing in the Final Four, and that VCU is from the same conference that produced George Mason not all that long ago. If they think back real hard, they'll remember Richmond upset an overrated Vanderbilt team to help them get into the Sweet 16, and got drilled by Kansas - who got creamed by VCU.

And, yes, they DO see momentum. They see two Final Four teams from the CAA in the last six years, and they're going to hear about this all week long. And if VCU beats Butler, they'll hear about it even longer.

You act as if people obsess as much about RPI and seedings as we do. They don't. It's as if you're buried in spreadsheets about the RPI and ignoring the facts that are in plain sight in front of you. They see VCU in the Final Four. It really is that simple.

I understand it wasn't your intent, but what you're saying does support what I'm saying.

I am no different than any of us who have fallen into the realm of understanding, of expectations for schools, despite this being a year of so much parity. We're all in the same boat, we all have the same habits, regardless of ones level of expertise in a sport. But that doesn't take away from this being a year with so much parity that has indeed been mentioned all year long.

And you're comments on what people will remember are also important in support. I too will remember all these same points. Everyone will. Just like we all remembered the magical GMU run in 2008 to the Final Four. But those memories, as fond as they are, have no tangible impact. If they did, the CAA would have had an at-large the next year...or the year after, wouldn't you think? Instead, the CAA performed as it had in most years, being a 1 bid conference with that 1 automatic bid being an 11 seed in 2009 and 2010.


Lehigh...Bucknell had one of the biggest wins in memory in 2006 with it's win over Kansas. It has the same positive resonance as Merfeld jumping for joy when Hampton beat Iowa St, or when Richmond beat Syracuse many moons ago. But if Bucknell had turned that win over Kansas into a final four spot in 2006 as a 14 seed, would you, a Partiot League fan, be claiming that the Patriot league were a superior conference to any of the regular boys, based on an unexpected run by a low seeded team? I'd be happy as hell for Bucknell, but it wouldn't change the basic criteria of what defines a conference on the scale of comparison to other conferences. The conference RPI and regular season are used to define that. And as fans, we are luckily able to benefit from magical runs like GMU and VCU have had.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Or it's a reflection that the people making up the seeds don't know what they're doing other than going on past reputation. I mean, how many times do 'miracles' have to happen before they're not miracles any more?

Right on. Hopefully no more than twice ;). but there are layers to that. Someone mentioned Temple above in the Cornell game. That was a clear case of underseeding with Cornell getting a 12 seed. And some might be quick to think that I'm bringing up Temple because they are in the A10, but that's not the case. Simply, Temple vs Cornell, a 5 vs a 12 seed was a push on the Vegas line. So even is one wanted to trash Temple and say they were seeded to high, the reality is that Cornell was 23-3 with an RPI above 40...should never have been as low as a 12 that year.

As for this year, I mentioned above and you can read on your own on CAAzone: even the most diehard CAA fans didn't expect VCU to get in, including optimistic VCU fans. It's what makes what VCU has done that much more special because they weren't even expected to get in...so the seed they got was pretty accurate compared to some of the others we've seen.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sorry, but the ignorance I see is in using irrelevant facts to support an argument.

These two final fours are nothing short of miracles and both teams should be commended for their success. But when a 12 seed makes it to the final four, and an 11 seed from a play-in round make it to the final four, it is hardly something that should be used to support an argument that a conference is at a higher tier than the numbers (RPI) dictate. It's instead a reflection on the luck of the draw, the bounce of the ball and most importantly, the drive by the players and coaches on those two teams

....

By saying "2 CAA final fours in 5 years" should have any merit, especially as they were #12 and #11 seeds, then how about the Horizon? I guess in supporting this statement about the CAA, then one would also need to accept that the Horizon with 2 final fours in (2) years is VASTLY superior to the CAA. And imagine if Butler were to win against VCU...it would mean 2 final game appearances in 2 years...so the Horizon must be more than TWICE as good as the CAA, right? I mean RPI must not matter, that the CAA is above the Horizon this one year, because the Horizon would not only have 2 final fours in 2 years, but two final appearances.

GMU had a great run. VCU has had and still is having a great run. And great for them. But it's not indicative of the conference when they were so low seeds.

Circular logic. Using your logic, the CAA has low seeds, so therefore they're not a great conference. And their run through USC, Georgetown (ORV), Purdue (#13), Florida State, and Kansas (#2) means nothing, because the run is "miraculous" and all that matters is that they were one of the last at-large teams in the tournament.

Yet Xavier - higher RPI, No. 6 seed in the tourney - means everything to you. Funny how a 51-49 win by Xavier over Butler during the regular season means everything to you, but VCU's run in the tournament is a "miracle" and doesn't mean anything in terms of conference perception.

Brother, VCU's run is no miracle. They are a very good team. That you call the runs "miraculous" show that you're too buried in RPI calculations and not enough time watching tournament games. It also misses the important fact that with the NCAA tournament, optics matter. Folks talk in hallowed tones about George Mason's Final Four run, and they'll also talk about VCU's run in the same hallowed tones no matter what happens this weekend.

Finally, you bring up Butler. Folks will be talking about the Butler NCAA championship game for decades, and they might be talking about them again after this year, too, no question. But you bring them up as an example as to point out the ridiculousness of even considering that their awesome success might actually rub off on their conference. Aside from being entirely irrelevant to the "CAA vs. A-10" argument, the assertion itself is ridiculous. It's not like Butler swept through their league - they lost to Youngstown State, few Heavens' sakes. Certainly their conference isn't filled with the likes of Army and Mississippi Valley State?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lehigh...Bucknell had one of the biggest wins in memory in 2006 with it's win over Kansas. It has the same positive resonance as Merfeld jumping for joy when Hampton beat Iowa St, or when Richmond beat Syracuse many moons ago. But if Bucknell had turned that win over Kansas into a final four spot in 2006 as a 14 seed, would you, a Partiot League fan, be claiming that the Patriot league were a superior conference to any of the regular boys, based on an unexpected run by a low seeded team? I'd be happy as hell for Bucknell, but it wouldn't change the basic criteria of what defines a conference on the scale of comparison to other conferences. The conference RPI and regular season are used to define that. And as fans, we are luckily able to benefit from magical runs like GMU and VCU have had.

I agree that Bucknell's win over Kansas falls in the "miracle" category, and I also agree that it's impact, beyond a season or two, wasn't all that great for the league as a whole, nor should it have been. The situation with the CAA is just completely different than that. The Patriot League is autobid league. The CAA is a multi-bid league who had Drexel upset Louisville on the road and is a solid, rising mid-major conference. There was plenty of evidence that the conference was a lot more than a one-trick pony going into the tournament.

Trust me. I had ODU in my Final Four.

EDIT: @PeteThamelNYT has this great stat off his Twitter feed: Since 2006 in the NCAA Tournament, CAA is 4-2 vs Big East, 3-0 vs ACC, 2-1 vs B10 and 1-1 vs Pac10 and B12. (He did forget they were 0-2 vs the Horizon and 0-1 vs. the A-10.)

[WMTribe90]

VCU run has not been miraculous. Just unexpected. Their playing exceptional basketaball and winning handily with the exception of the FSU game. Beating KU by ten isn't a miracle, its a sound victory. CSI, seeding means squat once the games tipoff. They fact they you cling to tourney seedings to prop up your argument of conference superiority is pretty weak IMO. I'll conced the A10 is still a better b-ball conference from top to bottom, but the last six years have proven two things in my mind.

1) The gap between the two conferences has narrowed considerably.
2) The top CAA teams (3-4) are as good or better than any of their A10 counterparts and we have the tourney wins, top 25 rankings and two Final Four appearences to back that claim.

Back to the topic, I can undestand why UR left, but they be stupid to not consider a move back given the current circumstances. Local rivlaries, diminished costs and an all-sports home that includes the football team. Same for UNCC.

[WMTribe90]

I agree that Bucknell's win over Kansas falls in the "miracle" category, and I also agree that it's impact, beyond a season or two, wasn't all that great for the league as a whole, nor should it have been. The situation with the CAA is just completely different than that. The Patriot League is autobid league. The CAA is a multi-bid league who had Drexel upset Louisville on the road and is a solid, rising mid-major conference. There was plenty of evidence that the conference was a lot more than a one-trick pony going into the tournament.

Trust me. I had ODU in my Final Four.

EDIT: @PeteThamelNYT has this great stat off his Twitter feed: Since 2006 in the NCAA Tournament, CAA is 4-2 vs Big East, 3-0 vs ACC, 2-1 vs B10 and 1-1 vs Pac10 and B12. (He did forget they were 0-2 vs the Horizon and 0-1 vs. the A-10.)

Great point about ODU. Very little doubt in my mind they win at least a game or two if they don't get match up aginst Butler in the first round.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Circular logic. Using your logic, the CAA has low seeds, so therefore they're not a great conference. And their run through USC, Georgetown (ORV), Purdue (#13), Florida State, and Kansas (#2) means nothing, because the run is "miraculous" and all that matters is that they were one of the last at-large teams in the tournament.

Yet Xavier - higher RPI, No. 6 seed in the tourney - means everything to you. Funny how a 51-49 win by Xavier over Butler during the regular season means everything to you, but VCU's run in the tournament is a "miracle" and doesn't mean anything in terms of conference perception.

Brother, VCU's run is no miracle. They are a very good team. That you call the runs "miraculous" show that you're too buried in RPI calculations and not enough time watching tournament games. It also misses the important fact that with the NCAA tournament, optics matter. Folks talk in hallowed tones about George Mason's Final Four run, and they'll also talk about VCU's run in the same hallowed tones no matter what happens this weekend.

Finally, you bring up Butler. Folks will be talking about the Butler NCAA championship game for decades, and they might be talking about them again after this year, too, no question. But you bring them up as an example as to point out the ridiculousness of even considering that their awesome success might actually rub off on their conference. Aside from being entirely irrelevant to the "CAA vs. A-10" argument, the assertion itself is ridiculous. It's not like Butler swept through their league - they lost to Youngstown State, few Heavens' sakes. Certainly their conference isn't filled with the likes of Army and Mississippi Valley State?

Actually lehigh, it's not nearly as complicated as you're making it. Using your logic, the CAA is a better conference than the Pac-10, Big Ten, ACC. Sorry, that's not true. Never say never though as with momentum, sure, they could be in time. A teams performance in a tournament run is a reflection on that team, not a conference. It's extremely amateur and short sighted to think otherwise since it was VCU and VCU alone playing the games. Not Towson, not ODU, not Delaware. CAA fans should be optimistic about their conference and any positive effects that VCU's miraculous run has on the conference. But at some point, even the most optimistic fans need to accept some semblance of reality and the role that the regular season plays. If VCU were the #1 to #4 school in the country, and the CAA a top conference in the country, then their numbers would (god forbid) actually reflect that. But they didn't. The result though is an improbable and inspiring run by VCU though. But that's about the cohesiveness and talent of that specific team, not a conference. Because if it were indicative about the conference, then like I said, the Horizon would have to be considered a dominant conference to the CAA...which they aren't.

[Tim James]

I'm well aware that geography is the least important factor nowadays in determinining your conference affilation. I just miss the old days when you had true "eastern", "southern", etc. conferences. I cringe whenever I see people wanting southern directional schools (UCF, ECU) in the Big East because thats not the Big East I remember from years back. The conference just keeps losing its old eastern identity which saddens me. I dont care if Temple and Buffalo suck, Id rather have them than ECU and UCF. I'm very stubborn lol. I still hate Louisville being the Big East.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

VCU run has not been miraculous. Just unexpected. Their playing exceptional basketaball and winning handily with the exception of the FSU game. Beating KU by ten isn't a miracle, its a sound victory. CSI, seeding means squat once the games tipoff. They fact they you cling to tourney seedings to prop up your argument of conference superiority is pretty weak IMO. I'll conced the A10 is still a better b-ball conference from top to bottom, but the last six years have proven two things in my mind.

1) The gap between the two conferences has narrowed considerably.
2) The top CAA teams (3-4) are as good or better than any of their A10 counterparts and we have the tourney wins, top 25 rankings and two Final Four appearences to back that claim.

Back to the topic, I can undestand why UR left, but they be stupid to not consider a move back given the current circumstances. Local rivlaries, diminished costs and an all-sports home that includes the football team. Same for UNCC.

W&m, it's not the seeding that I'm clinging to. It's facing the reality that while it's not a perfect system, the regular season has a meaning. My arguments are NOT set alone for an CAA vs A10 argument. It's just taking the step back and addressing the important reality for all conferences: in dismissing the criteria used in regular season rankings and various formulas, one is placing too much on the post-season. Ultimately, the post-season in all sports is to gauge a Playoff (tournament) champion. It's a single team achievement. It doesn't mean that members of opposing teams within that winners conference shouldn't be filled with pride and joy in their conference mates (funny though that we all do, yet in BCS conferences, you won't find say, Tennessee fans rooting for UK ;) ). But the tournaments only gauge Team A vs Team B on the court and not applicable to saying X conference is better than Y.

And again, it's not seeding to look at the 2 year Butler accomplishments. And I'm sorry, but the same logic being presented by others in this thread, excluding yourself, would dictate that the Horizon is a stronger conference than the CAA. And I don't agree with that logic. But using the same logic I've seen here to build up the CAA, I have not seem the same logic applied in what would put the Horizon higher than the CAA. I understand that this thread is not titled "CAA vs Horizon" and is aimed at richmond not being in the CAA. So my apologies if you or anyone has construed my posts as hijacking.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I'm well aware that geography is the least important factor nowadays in determinining your conference affilation. I just miss the old days when you had true "eastern", "southern", etc. conferences. I cringe whenever I see people wanting southern directional schools (UCF, ECU) in the Big East because thats not the Big East I remember from years back. The conference just keeps losing its old eastern identity which saddens me. I dont care if Temple and Buffalo suck, Id rather have them than ECU and UCF. I'm very stubborn lol. I still hate Louisville being the Big East.

I'm with ya, Tim. I hate the importance of the external revenue factors and the effect they've had. TCU being added to the Big East just because of the Dallas market and BCS criteria boost, while ECU is in the Southwest/CUSA Conference. the Big East has added 5 (soon 6) schools since it was formed, and ECU is not nor will ever be one of them. Yet they make sense.

But it's no limited to just the big guys. And there are pros and cons still. As this thread is A10 related, it's worth noting that the A10 did a GREAT job in replacing WVU and Rutgers with Xavier and Dayton. Granted, there is the "catholic" connection to the A10 that made up for the western expansion from PA to Ohio. And in the CAA, it's really sad to see what's happened at Northeastern. I mean, the only reason they were added was because they had football and the CAA wanted sponsorship. CAA could have added a better program in the market from every angle (market penetration, facilities, revenue) in BU...but no football, no dice. UNCW has been begging for a partner of sorts for decades. Instead they got Northeastern and GA State (CofC rejected invite). But you're right, would be great if the CAA could say, swap Drexel, Hofstra, NU and GA State for App St., Charlotte, Richmond and CofC. Just be glad it's not the Big Sky...covering 3 times zones.

[Tim James]

We shall see what Richmond's true intentions are. The Patriot league makes sense from an academic standpoint and also its an eastern league and most of Richmond's students come from the northeast. They would take a huge hit in football/basketball by going there and we will see if they want to lose out on a lot of money for the sake of common sense. Somehow I doubt they will. All sports CAA seems like a decent compromise. A10 makes the least sense of the 3 options.

[panama]

Looking at the budgets of CAA Schools, I am not surprised how the conference caught up with the A-10 basketball wise.

Some of the schools, I believe spend as much as some Mtn. West and C-USA programs.

Check out ope.ed.gov.
xreadxThat is a fun tool for sports numbers geeks.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We shall see what Richmond's true intentions are. The Patriot league makes sense from an academic standpoint and also its an eastern league and most of Richmond's students come from the northeast. They would take a huge hit in football/basketball by going there and we will see if they want to lose out on a lot of money for the sake of common sense. Somehow I doubt they will. All sports CAA seems like a decent compromise. A10 makes the least sense of the 3 options.

As thrilled as I would be with Richmond coming into the Patriot League, it ain't happening.

[Tim James]

A few years ago some people were saying Villanova was a Patriot League candidate and look where they are now, on the verge of Big East football. Richmond and Villanova to the Patriot league makes sense on some level but the reality is it was just a pipe dream.

[VUCats02]

That comment just drips of Big East ignorance. There is very little difference between the top teams in the CAA & the A-10. Heck, there's not a lot of difference in the bottom teams either. I'll give the A-10 a slight nod in having more "decent" teams overall than the CAA but otherwise they're pretty much even. If two Final Fours in 5 years doesn't convince you than nothing will, but I'd expect not much less from a stubborn 'Nova fan.

I'd expect not much less of a stubborn Delaware fan that clearly doesn't know anything about college basketball. If you're going to give the A-10 a slight nod compared to the CAA this year (which is what I did as well), then how can you justify that the CAA is the better conference when the A-10 outperformed the CAA in a year that the A-10 was way down and the CAA was way up?

The A-10 is clearly the better basketball conference. You're the typical sports guy that gets caught up in recent runs and judge an overall analysis of conferences based on the NCAA tournament. You simply cannot judge conferences based on the NCAA tournament for lots of reasons that I do not feel like getting into right now. You have to look at the whole picture. Two final four runs in the past 5 years are great for the CAA - but does not, by any means, make the CAA a better conference than the A-10.

Richmond is better off in the A-10 for basketball imo.

[VUCats02]

You're constantly going to find people trying to work an angle to justify their position. What we have are the numbers now, which make the justification process more accurate that relying solely on ones own opinion.

And the facts don't lie.

The CAA had a great year, that is for sure. And the A10 was a mess. Yet both still got 3 bids. VCU getting into a play-in game was unexpected, even to CAA fans. I'm an active member on CAAzone and it was a near consensus even by the most passionate CAA fans that VCU was going to be left out. Luckily for them and their great fans, they got in and have had a great run. But that doesn't change the fact that up until Selection Sunday, it looked like the CAA would have only 2 teams in. Note we're talking about what even CAA fans consider their best year, and a year most A10 fans knew and it turned out to be a bad year.


More numbers:
RPI is something that CAA fans OFTEN use to defend their conference and say it's what makes them better than the other mid-majors. But if one is to accept this premise, then it has to be fully embraced. You can't say the RPI makes you better than other mid-majors because it's higher than others, and then dismiss RPI when it comes to the A10. The A10 has always, as this season, had a higher RPI than the CAA.

Bids:
The CAA got (2) at-large bids this year. That's the most ever for them, so one can argue that this is the best year for the CAA. But you can still count on 1 hand how many at-large bids the CAA has gotten in it's history. Meanwhile, the A10 has had as many as 5 in a given year and routinely has multiple at-large bids. Historically, the A10 has as many or more at-large bids than some conferences you would expect to be higher.

Cream at the Top:
CAA fans will argue that their top programs are better than the a10 top programs. I would disagree. Xavier, Temple are clearly at a level higher than any CAA school. When you factor in other criteria, one can make an argument that Dayton, Richmond, St. Louis and Charlotte as well. There are a number of factors to consider like attendance, facilities and most importantly, tradition and consistency. But even more, you can't point your fingers and say "CAA top programs are better than A10 top programs" because in saying that, you are saying that "it's the bottom CAA programs that are the problem". But with 14 members, the A10 is always in a spot to have lower ranked programs each year. And frankly, the A10 bottom schools aren't great by any means.




It's not to take away from the CAA. They had a great year and their fans should be proud. College basketball should be proud since the sport had a real down year in quality, which opened up more parity. A 3, 4, 8 and 11 seed in the final four is pretty much what one could expect this year since it was so wide open. Yet as fans, we're almost locked into the idea that the top seeds are supposed to be better. That wasn't the case before the tourney started this year, and isn't now.

But when it comes to ranking a conference, there are expectations to grasp. And until decades go by where a conference is expected to have X number of at-large bids, it would be foolish to throw away reality. The A10 is expected to have 2-3 teams in every year. The CAA is expected to have 1. In time that might change. But it's just as likely based on historical trends that the CAA returns to being a 1-2 bid league. But rest assure, there will still be CAA fans that would argue the A10 is weaker even if that happens. In the meantime, the CAA needs real momentum. They need to grow EVERY year. Mason had a nice run in 2008. Lots of momentum, right? Well, they had 0 autobids the next year in 2009 (11 seed). No worries, they turned it around the next year, right? No, 0 autobids (winner got 11 seed).

2011 was a great year for the CAA with 3 bids...but it needs to be the start of momentum, not an anomaly, before anyone can start having any serious conversations about the CAA being even on the same page as the A10.

Excellent post. Completely agree on everything you said.

[Longhorn]

For non-BCS conferences for basketball, the tournament shares are of most importance. As the A10 gets more bids, it means more money. And that's why Richmond, Charlotte, St. Louis, etc, are all in the A10. but the trickle down continues...it's why Northeastern is in the CAA rather than America East, because the 1.3 CAA bids is more than the 1 AE bid.

And shares are earned not just by initial appearances, but by wins. Since 2006, the A10 has 13 NCAAT wins. The CAA 12, and counting. By objective measure, parity between the A10 and CAA in basketball since 2006 has been achieved, and the perception of seeding, and the number of future at-large selections typically expected by the CAA, may now be reasonably expected to increase as the story of VCU and GMU's Final Four runs are put into context. Will those additional at-large bids come at the expense of the A10? Probably not, but who knows? The bottom line is the "shares" of MBB revenue earned by the CAA is rising, and teams like Charlotte may well look at that and decide to leave the A10.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And shares are earned not just by initial appearances, but by wins. Since 2006, the A10 has 13 NCAAT wins. The CAA 12, and counting. By objective measure, parity between the A10 and CAA in basketball since 2006 has been achieved, and the perception of seeding, and the number of future at-large selections typically expected by the CAA, may now be reasonably expected to increase as the story of VCU and GMU's Final Four runs are put into context. Will those additional at-large bids come at the expense of the A10? Probably not, but who knows? The bottom line is the "shares" of MBB revenue earned by the CAA is rising, and teams like Charlotte may well look at that and decide to leave the A10.

But don't you get a larger "share" of the pie if a team in your conference makes the Final Four? I think one team winning four games and making the Final Four means more of a share than (say) the WAC getting four bids, winning four opening-round games, and then being gone by the Sweet 16. If I'm right, then Final Four "shares" are worth a hell of a lot more.

Otherwise, by defining shares a "tournament wins", FAMU would have gotten a "share" by winning a PIG against Lehigh a few years ago... I'm almost certain that not all wins are created equal in terms of "shares".

[henfan]

CAA could have added a better program in the market from every angle (market penetration, facilities, revenue) in BU...but no football, no dice. UNCW has been begging for a partner of sorts for decades.

What the H are you even talking about, man?! You're completely off the mark here.

BU was one of three agents responsible for torpedoing the America East's takeover of the CAA in Sept. 2000. Even with that, BU was the FIRST CHOICE for expansion in May 2004. If BU wanted in to the revived CAA, they could have been there. The CAA only turned to NU AFTER BU turned them down.


Boston Globe, May 29, 2004, Pg. E-1, Mark Blaudschun
Northeastern Close To Move
Teams Would Play In CAA

The next step was to get a Northern team as the 12th member so the CAA could break into two six-team North-South divisions. Last week, representatives from Hofstra, which bolted the America East three years ago, and CAA commissioner Tom Yeager were in Boston courting Boston University.

BU officials maintained that if they were going anywhere, it would be to a conference like the Atlantic 10, not the CAA, because the A-10 is more prestigious in basketball (Saint Joseph's went to the Final Four last season). With the rejection, the CAA turned its focus this week on Northeastern, which had been lobbying for inclusion in any CAA expansion plans for the past several months...

I'm fairly certain the conference would still like to fill in the gap between Wilmington and Atlanta. That story hasn't seen it's final chapter yet. Stay tuned.

[To correct Blaudschun, St. Joe's did not go to the Final Four in 2004. They lost to Oklahoma St. in the Regional Final.]

[aceinthehole]

But don't you get a larger "share" of the pie if a team in your conference makes the Final Four? I think one team winning four games and making the Final Four means more of a share than (say) the WAC getting four bids, winning four opening-round games, and then being gone by the Sweet 16. If I'm right, then Final Four "shares" are worth a hell of a lot more.

Otherwise, by defining shares a "tournament wins", FAMU would have gotten a "share" by winning a PIG against Lehigh a few years ago... I'm almost certain that not all wins are created equal in terms of "shares".

Each win is an equal "share," regradless of what round it was earned. So yes, that is one of the advantages the PIGs for the low-majors - a win earns 1 additional share.

The NCAA revenue goes directly to the conference and the conference bylaws/policy/agrrements dictate distribution to member teams.

Some conferences have unequal sharing agreements. In the Pac-10, USC & UCLA get an amount off the top before NCAA revenue is divided equally among all the schools.

In the NEC, the NCAA revenue is basically the econference operating budget (about $1 million per year). All the funds earned by the conference are used to pay operating expenses and to produce and purchase airtime for basketball and football games. However, the school who earns the NCAA bid is awarded a $10k bonus and an additional amount for any wins in the tourney for that year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Each win is an equal "share," regradless of what round it was earned. So yes, that is one of the advantages the PIGs for the low-majors - a win earns 1 additional share.

The NCAA revenue goes directly to the conference and the conference bylaws/policy/agrrements dictate distribution to member teams.

Some conferences have unequal sharing agreements. In the Pac-10, USC & UCLA get an amount off the top before NCAA revenue is divided equally among all the schools.

In the NEC, the NCAA revenue is basically the econference operating budget (about $1 million per year). All the funds earned by the conference are used to pay operating expenses and to produce and purchase airtime for basketball and football games. However, the school who earns the NCAA bid is awarded a $10k bonus and an additional amount for any wins in the tourney for that year.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure if the NCAA and/or CBS pays extra money to the teams or conferences for making the FinalF. I guess not.

So in terms of the NCAA, VCU's Elite Eight win over Kansas was the same in terms of NCAA revenue as UNC-Asheville's win in the First Four. Of course, there's that unmeasurable free publicity that is ensuing right now as the nation discusses Butler, Virginia Commonwealth, the CAA and Horizon, but that's not related.

[aceinthehole]

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure if the NCAA and/or CBS pays extra money to the teams or conferences for making the FinalF. I guess not.

So in terms of the NCAA, VCU's Elite Eight win over Kansas was the same in terms of NCAA revenue as UNC-Asheville's win in the First Four. Of course, there's that unmeasurable free publicity that is ensuing right now as the nation discusses Butler, Virginia Commonwealth, the CAA and Horizon, but that's not related.

The NCAA's revenue is from the CBS broadcast contract - it's a fixed amount per year.

That annual amount, minus some NCAA operating costs, is divided equally into 135 "shares" (68 bids + 67 games). Each team in the tourney earns 1 share for their conference, then each win earns another share for their conference.

For example,
Big East: 11 teams + 8 wins = 19 shares (and counting)
A-10: 3 teams + 3 wins = 6 shares
CAA: 3 teams + 5 wins = 8 shares (and counting)
NEC: 1 team = 1 share
MEAC: 1 team + 1 win = 2 shares

Later round wins are worth more in publicity, but not revenue from the NCAA.

[LeadBolt]

The NCAA's revenue is from the CBS broadcast contract - it's a fixed amount per year.

That annual amount, minus some NCAA operating costs, is divided equally into 135 "shares" (68 bids + 67 games). Each team in the tourney earns 1 share for their conference, then each win earns another share for their conference.

For example,
Big East: 11 teams + 8 wins = 19 shares (and counting)
A-10: 3 teams + 3 wins = 6 shares
CAA: 3 teams + 5 wins = 8 shares (and counting)
NEC: 1 team = 1 share
MEAC: 1 team + 1 win = 2 shares

Later round wins are worth more in publicity, but not revenue from the NCAA.

Any idea what a share will run this year?

[49RFootballNow]

Any idea what a share will run this year?

135 shares available

$10.8 Billion deal for 14 years, so $770 Million this year.

Now the X factor is how much does the NCAA keep of that and how much do they give to each conference?

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/23/business/la-fi-ct-turner-20100423

The old contract paid $225,000 per share/per year/per school over a 6 year period.

[Longhorn]

Not sure if VCU earned a share for beating USC, but I think they did, which would mean 6 wins (and counting)....(GMU +1 and VCU +5 = 6 wins) for the CAA .

Current shares are worth just a tad under $1.5 mil.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Not one Richmond alum/fan has chimed in.

[superman7515]

The NCAA's revenue is from the CBS broadcast contract - it's a fixed amount per year.

That annual amount, minus some NCAA operating costs, is divided equally into 135 "shares" (68 bids + 67 games). Each team in the tourney earns 1 share for their conference, then each win earns another share for their conference.

For example,
Big East: 11 teams + 8 wins = 19 shares (and counting)
A-10: 3 teams + 3 wins = 6 shares
CAA: 3 teams + 5 wins = 8 shares (and counting)
NEC: 1 team = 1 share
MEAC: 1 team + 1 win = 2 shares

Later round wins are worth more in publicity, but not revenue from the NCAA.

The MEAC didn't win a game and in the past the play-in game didn't recieve a share because the first round was after the play-in game. That changed this year with the four play-in games being called the 1st round and the winners advancing to the 2nd round.

[superman7515]

Any idea what a share will run this year?

$239,664

[superman7515]

The NCAA's revenue is from the CBS broadcast contract - it's a fixed amount per year.

That annual amount, minus some NCAA operating costs, is divided equally into 135 "shares" (68 bids + 67 games). Each team in the tourney earns 1 share for their conference, then each win earns another share for their conference.

For example,
Big East: 11 teams + 8 wins = 19 shares (and counting)
A-10: 3 teams + 3 wins = 6 shares
CAA: 3 teams + 5 wins = 8 shares (and counting)
NEC: 1 team = 1 share
MEAC: 1 team + 1 win = 2 shares

Later round wins are worth more in publicity, but not revenue from the NCAA.

Also, forgot to mention, it is 66 games because no share is given to the winner of the NCAA Championship game.

[aceinthehole]

The MEAC didn't win a game and in the past the play-in game didn't recieve a share because the first round was after the play-in game. That changed this year with the four play-in games being called the 1st round and the winners advancing to the 2nd round.

Oops, this for this year - Big South: 1 team + 1 win = 2 shares

I'm not certain, but I pretty sure in past years the PIG winner won a "share" - Monmouth and Mt. St. Mary's each won a PIG for the NEC. I think the NCAA just changed the name of the PIGs from "Opening Round" to "First Round" to appease the at-large majors.

[SpiderSafety75]

Not one Richmond alum/fan has chimed in.

Maybe because we recognize it's a dumb question.xnodx

When the Spiders moved, the A-10 was vastly superior. Most of the students are from the northeast. They had a chance to push themselves...when they arrived, they were not competitive.

And they have done so. The local fans may rather see the Spiders play VCU twice, or George Mason, but other than that, they are in a better place FOR THEM.

The CAA has done some nice catch-up, though the long-term history of the A-10 is certainly more attractive. UR has more in common with Temple, St Joes, St Bonnie, Xavier, Hofstra etc, than they do with ODU, VCU, Mason, Ga Southern, etc.

In all the VCU hysteria, let's not forget that UR waxed VCU at the Siegel Center this year. We won't. :)

[henfan]

The CAA has done some nice catch-up, though the long-term history of the A-10 is certainly more attractive. UR has more in common with Temple, St Joes, St Bonnie, Xavier, Hofstra etc, than they do with ODU, VCU, Mason, Ga Southern, etc.

Alas, Hofstra is not in the the Atlantic 10, nor is Georgia Southern in the CAA.

Are you sure institutionally or athletically UR has more in common with a large public 250 miles away like Temple than it does a more regional publics like VCU, GMU or ODU? Really? Does UR really have more in common institutionally or athletically with further flung parochials like SBU, XU or SJU than it does with, say, W&M, UD and JMU? Really?

It's pretty silly for anyone to argue that the A-10 wasn't a better move for some UR's athletic programs (particularly hoops) in 2000. IMO though, the move also worked out incredibly well for the CAA. If not for UR's backroom deal, the CAA today might consist of UR, W&M, VCU, ODU, GMU, JMU, VMI, UNCW, Furman, the Citadel, Davidson, College of Charleston, Wofford & Delaware, as was the plan right before UR blew it up. THANKS, RICHMOND! xhurrayx

[SpiderSafety75]

I liked VCU and ODU coming into the CAA. Good moves for the league. Sorry about the misspeak on teams, I get them all confused once in awhile.

Richmond is getting more players from the Philly area- Northeast than they do locals. That matters,too. UR was very concerned with the CAA looking at all these big schools back in the day.

Could UR 'go back to the CAA'? I suppose. But what kind of school are you if you flip-flop every 6-10 years based on what's happening right now? fans are slowly getting into the A-10...it takes years, esp with the two divisions. It would be foolish to move BACK at this point in time.

Spider fans are happy with the A-10, and I think for the most part are excited and proud for what the CAA has accomplished.

[SpiderSafety75]

Why does UR have ANYthing in common with JMU and UD? they do have academics and history with W&M...but you've got to remember who UR is...a tiny private school. REALLY tiny. But they don't want to be Patriot League.

The Spiders even have a Philly kid as their basketball coach. They have begun a long-term change into a mid-atlantic/NE school, because that's really who they are.

[henfan]

Why does UR have ANYthing in common with JMU and UD?

I suspect that UR competes more against UD & JMU for students & student-athletes across the board in MD, DE, NJ & PA than they do with Xavier, SBU, SJU or Temple. Would you disagree?

I'm not arguing UR's selection of the A-10 as the conference of choice in 2000. And, no, I don't think with the profile the CAA has adopted since UR's departure that it would be a good fit now. The move worked out best for both sides.

[ur2k]

We made the move for basketball - the a10 is and has historically been a better conference for basketball. Until the last few years, it had been something like 20 years since the CAA got an at large bid to the NCAA's. That's why we moved.

We moved to the a10 for the 2001-2002 season, since then we received 3 NCAA bids (2 at larges in 2004, 2010, 1 auto bid in 2011 but we more than likely would have gotten an at large if we didn't win the conference tournament), we also went through a complete rebuild after Jerry Wainwright blew up the program.

VCU, ODU and Mason are great programs, the rest of the conference is so-so in b-ball. And we still play VCU every year in a rivalry game and pretty much play ODU every year.

We're in the (arguably)the best or one of the best non-BCS basketball leagues and (arguably) the best FCS football conference. We have the best of both worlds currently. Outside of a major conference upheaval, why would we change that to go back to the CAA or go somewhere like the Patriot league?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We're in the (arguably)the best or one of the best non-BCS basketball leagues and (arguably) the best FCS football conference. We have the best of both worlds currently. Outside of a major conference upheaval, why would we change that to go back to the CAA or go somewhere like the Patriot league?

Are you more or less likely to be well represented in football if your main sports are in the A-10?

[ur2k]

Are you more or less likely to be well represented in football if your main sports are in the A-10?

Well represented in what regard? Not sure I understand the question.

[bostonspider]

Are you more or less likely to be well represented in football if your main sports are in the A-10?

Well UR is a founding member of the CAA Football Conference, and the CAA Director of Football Operations is Chuck Boone, who was the AD at UR for 23 years, and is an alumnus of the school. So I think the Spiders are represented just fine.

[49RFootballNow]

Yeah, I think the 2008 National Champions probably feel well represented with their current conference setup.

[rufus]

I would like to see the CAA expand to 16 by going after UMass, Temple, Charlotte, and App State. All of those schools (other than Temple) clearly have FBS ambitions like those of JMU, Ga State, ODU, and possibly Delaware. Temple could continue to play football in the MAC until the CAA teams complete their transition to FBS, and CAA FCS football could transition to America East or some other conference once the larger schools move to FBS.

Granted, the A10 schools consider the CAA a step down in basketball, but it may be less of a step down if UMass (with a strong bball history and a Final 4 appearance), Charlotte (strong bball history), and Temple (arguably the A10's flagship) move to the CAA to join up with the likes of VCU, Mason, and ODU, and pick up FBS football in the process. If the A10 schools were still unconvinced, I'm sure the CAA would be happy to boot a school like Drexel or Northeastern to make room for a school like Xavier. If those top A10 schools move together, the rest of the conference looks thin. That's true of most conferences, but the large public schools A10 with eyes on FBS football (or an all-sports home for FBS football) have some incentive to consider making a move.

[Sitting Bull]

As a few here have already mentioned, I think the current arrangement for UR and the CAA has worked ok for both.

I do see the CAA on a continuous move upward and not just in the sense of this year's NCAA tourney performance. The schools in general within the CAA overall seem to be gaining increasing momentum and credibility. Even W&M, a steady doormat over the years, had one of their best seasons in history last year and included two road wins at ACC schools.

The A-10 feels like a conference stuck at the moment in terms of momentum. The schools within the A-10 who have provided the prestige seem to be sliding, many seem to have their glory days well behind them at this point (St. Bonnie, LaSalle, Duquesne, Fordham, Charlotte, Dayton, URI, etc.). I think the CAA will continue to rise in stature and stand even or perhaps even pass the A-10 in the next decade.

In terms of UR, most of their fans seem happy with the set-up and CAA fans don't really miss them . The Richmond paper however has shown analysis several times since the move where basketball attendance at UR has definitely declined with the move over the 10 year period. This year may have been a rebound given their success. In mediocre years though, the lack of close or heated rivals has hurt the local interest level.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I would like to see the CAA expand to 16 by going after UMass, Temple, Charlotte, and App State. All of those schools (other than Temple) clearly have FBS ambitions like those of JMU, Ga State, ODU, and possibly Delaware. Temple could continue to play football in the MAC until the CAA teams complete their transition to FBS, and CAA FCS football could transition to America East or some other conference once the larger schools move to FBS.

Granted, the A10 schools consider the CAA a step down in basketball, but it may be less of a step down if UMass (with a strong bball history and a Final 4 appearance), Charlotte (strong bball history), and Temple (arguably the A10's flagship) move to the CAA to join up with the likes of VCU, Mason, and ODU, and pick up FBS football in the process. If the A10 schools were still unconvinced, I'm sure the CAA would be happy to boot a school like Drexel or Northeastern to make room for a school like Xavier. If those top A10 schools move together, the rest of the conference looks thin. That's true of most conferences, but the large public schools A10 with eyes on FBS football (or an all-sports home for FBS football) have some incentive to consider making a move.


Rufus, I know a number of JMU and CAA fans have always wanted something similar. For some it is the strive for an all-sports conference.

The only problem with what you propose is the specifics. It's a safe assumption from your post that you have basketball in mind, which is great, since there are a number of different level football programs in the mix. But the problem is that you listed 3 CAA schools as the primary rationale: VCU, Mason and ODU. And then mention A10 schools like UMass, Temple, Charlotte, and Xavier. And as this thread is about Richmond, maybe or maybe not you had them in mind. So we're talking 4 or 5 A10 schools are being desired and only 3 CAA basketball schools. If you factor in the two prime football schools in the CAA, UD and JMU, i think you'd find that most of America would prefer St. Louis and Dayton to those schools.

So ultimately, the problem comes back to one that has existed for many years in the region. You have the SoCon and CAA that are hyrids with some football and some basketball schools. In the perfect world, they could just swap out since regionally, with the exception of the northern schools (NU and Hofstra) the region is pretty tight. Those two schools are new to the argument as they had football and dropped it in recent years.

And then you have the A10 which is mostly private schools with UMass,Temple and Charlotte as the exceptions. But while as fans, we might think that being with like minded schools (publics with public, privates with privates) is a key criteria, at this level of college sports, it is not. What is a matter is success and revenue. And if School A can make more revenue by being aligned with School B, even if one is private and one is public, then THAT is the path the school wants to be on. Unfortunately, we're not talking BCS level where conferences can pick and chose and factor in more criteria. At our level, it's about getting as much out of what we can (in regards to revenue).


I've banged the drum for years about getting the potential FBS upgrades together in a conference in the east (with Temple): UMass, Temple, Delaware, JMU, ODU, Charlotte, App St., GA St. Throw in Buffalo, GA Southern if need be, hope for ECU and Marshall ONE day. All sports, FBS football, good markets, public schools.

But with the proposal you've given above, it focuses on 3 CAA schools. But there are more in the A10 that would bring more revenue to the table. So one stands to think that an optimal scenario might be the dream scenario where the A10 were to cut it's fat at the bottom by 3 schools and just bring in those 3 schools:
UMass, URI, Temple, St.Joes, Duquesne, GMU, GW, Richmond, VCU, ODU, Charlotte, Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis. Seems that would be a much stronger conference (and more revenue) than adding the A10 schools you mentioned as they'd be forced to join a group with the likes of NU, Hofstra, Drexel, UNCW, etc without football.


In the end, it comes back to the same age old problem where logic is seldom the primary factor for schools/conferences at this level. It's about convenience. The SoCon is what it is, because those were it's only options. Same with the CAA. Same with the A10.

[rufus]

The SoCon is what it is, because those were it's only options. Same with the CAA. Same with the A10.

The key word there is "were". Times change. The CAA is mostly made up of large public universities that were late to the game (JMU, ODU, VCU, GMU, Towson, Ga. State). Now these schools have devoted significant resources to athletics, and are starting to catch up. It might take another decade, two decades, or longer, but eventually these CAA schools will catch up to and pass the small private schools in the A10.

[URMite]

What is considered current basketball history? CAA vs A10

8yrs?
CAA...12bids...12wins...2rd16...2rd8...2rd4
A10...21bids...19wins...6rd16...3rd8...0rd4

6yrs?
CAA...10bids...12wins...2rd16...2rd8...2rd4
A10...16bids...13wins...4rd16...1rd8...0rd4

5yrs?
CAA...8bids...8wins...1rd16...1rd8...1rd4
A10...14bids...12wins...4rd16...1rd8...0rd4

Of course that doesn't take into account conference RPI analysis, which I don't have time for right now or number of teams in each conference.

But let's get back to football soon. xchinscratchx

[DFW HOYA]

The key word there is "were". Times change. The CAA is mostly made up of large public universities that were late to the game (JMU, ODU, VCU, GMU, Towson, Ga. State). Now these schools have devoted significant resources to athletics, and are starting to catch up. It might take another decade, two decades, or longer, but eventually these CAA schools will catch up to and pass the small private schools in the A10.

I sometimes question the use of the phrase "small private schools" since many private schools are anything but "small". How many people know that DePaul is larger than Syracuse?

Enrollments for GW and Charlotte are about equivalent when grad students are taken into account, and St. Louis is larger than URI because of commuters. The two "small" A-10 schools are Bona and Richmond.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

What is considered current basketball history? CAA vs A10

8yrs?
CAA...12bids...12wins...2rd16...2rd8...2rd4
A10...21bids...19wins...6rd16...3rd8...0rd4

6yrs?
CAA...10bids...12wins...2rd16...2rd8...2rd4
A10...16bids...13wins...4rd16...1rd8...0rd4

5yrs?
CAA...8bids...8wins...1rd16...1rd8...1rd4
A10...14bids...12wins...4rd16...1rd8...0rd4


Sorry I got here late. Thanks for posting, mite. This is the bottom line.

To the JMU fan looking for Temple and UMass to join the CAA - keep dreaming.

CAA had a fine run this year, but there are very few Richmond fans yearning for the CAA days.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

The key word there is "were". Times change. The CAA is mostly made up of large public universities that were late to the game (JMU, ODU, VCU, GMU, Towson, Ga. State). Now these schools have devoted significant resources to athletics, and are starting to catch up. It might take another decade, two decades, or longer, but eventually these CAA schools will catch up to and pass the small private schools in the A10.

...or the larger State Schools like JMU may continue to run a moribund offense, have offseasons full of off-field issues and see stagnant growth or even implosion. Who knows?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

The Richmond paper however has shown analysis several times since the move where basketball attendance at UR has definitely declined with the move over the 10 year period. This year may have been a rebound given their success. In mediocre years though, the lack of close or heated rivals has hurt the local interest level.

We averaged just under 6000 fans a game this year. Keep in mind we had 4-5 mediocre seasons in the middle of the decade that caused attendance to dwindle.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

The key word there is "were". Times change. The CAA is mostly made up of large public universities that were late to the game (JMU, ODU, VCU, GMU, Towson, Ga. State). Now these schools have devoted significant resources to athletics, and are starting to catch up. It might take another decade, two decades, or longer, but eventually these CAA schools will catch up to and pass the small private schools in the A10.

An opinion, not at all a fact. The MAC, Sunbelt, CUSA, are mostly public schools and those with FBS football. Yet none have passed the Big East which is a half "small private schools" and only half state schools. It's not some equation that one can throw out: public = resources = success. Because while public schools invest in their programs, it doesn't mean non-public schools don't. Richmond has been a superior program during their time in the A10 vs being in the CAA. Xavier has bigger crowds than most BCS conference schools. Dayton is no slouch, shown by the NCAA's commitment to having the play-in rounds in Dayton. St. Joes WAS a #1 seed not long ago, but that is indeed in the past, not the present.

I'm all for optimism and always hope the fans get what they want. But there is nothing to tell us that the CAA will be able to do what is necessary for the rise you speak of. Again, CAA had a team in the Final 4 in 2006...but since then, the A10 has still been superior every year up until this year. It will take decades of being on an even plain, same bids each year, similar RPI...like this past season...for the argument to really take shape with some backing. And I know this because I spent enough time on the A10 forums in the past adding some reality that thos eyears where the A10 and Big East were even were anomalies...not an indication that the A10 was on par with the Big east.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What is considered current basketball history? CAA vs A10

8yrs?
CAA...12bids...12wins...2rd16...2rd8...2rd4
A10...21bids...19wins...6rd16...3rd8...0rd4

6yrs?
CAA...10bids...12wins...2rd16...2rd8...2rd4
A10...16bids...13wins...4rd16...1rd8...0rd4

5yrs?
CAA...8bids...8wins...1rd16...1rd8...1rd4
A10...14bids...12wins...4rd16...1rd8...0rd4

Of course that doesn't take into account conference RPI analysis, which I don't have time for right now or number of teams in each conference.

But let's get back to football soon. xchinscratchx

The trouble with this analysis is that it's equating bids with performance. The A-10 got a lot of bids, sure, including a No. 1 seed and some other high seeds. But the CAA has made more of their bids. Just looking at the number of bids supposes that you just look at how many teams made the tournament, and just stop there, without thinking that VCU and George Mason are Final Four teams. That's the mistake. Performance in the tournament matters.

[Sitting Bull]

We averaged just under 6000 fans a game this year. Keep in mind we had 4-5 mediocre seasons in the middle of the decade that caused attendance to dwindle.

Factor out a home games this year with VCU and ODU, and I bet your average probably goes down.

I mentioned your rebound this year though I think my point remains valid. You had mediocre years in the CAA as well. When you have these leaner years, you can't convince me that home games with Mason, JMU, VCU, ODU, W&M would not draw much larger local interest in Richmond than GW, St. Bonnie, LaSalle, UMass, etc.

The RTD surfaced this, not me.

Still, I am not arguing the situation overall. UR appears happy and the CAA is doing just fine without UR. There would be many other schools the CAA would want to consider bringing in before going back to UR.

On the conferences, stats can be twisted anyway you want. I still have the overall feeling the past few years that the A10 is stagnant and the CAA is rising.

[49RFootballNow]

Performance in the tournament matters.

Historical tournament performance matters to us fans, but rarely to the selection committee; unless you're a BCS conference team. Only the ACC and a few other 'select" conferences can "overcome" less than stellar seasonal performances with their "tradition" of excellence and benefit from multiple "free" bids. I'd say it was great progress for the CAA to get 2 bids next year. In the long run its more important financially to get 3 teams in every year that all lose the first game then 1 stellar team that makes a deep run every half decade. And money is the only thing universities and conferences care about when the cameras are off.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Factor out a home games this year with VCU and ODU, and I bet your average probably goes down.

I mentioned your rebound this year though I think my point remains valid. You had mediocre years in the CAA as well. When you have these leaner years, you can't convince me that home games with Mason, JMU, VCU, ODU, W&M would not draw much larger local interest in Richmond than GW, St. Bonnie, LaSalle, UMass, etc.

The RTD surfaced this, not me.

Still, I am not arguing the situation overall. UR appears happy and the CAA is doing just fine without UR. There would be many other schools the CAA would want to consider bringing in before going back to UR.

On the conferences, stats can be twisted anyway you want. I still have the overall feeling the past few years that the A10 is stagnant and the CAA is rising.

We didn't play ODU at home. We had 16 home games. It's not like 1 game (VCU) is going to create a huge skew of the numbers.

The CAA may be 'rising', but VCU shouldn't have made the tourney. They did and they had a magical run. If the committee put the right teams in the field, we're not having this conversation.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

The trouble with this analysis is that it's equating bids with performance. The A-10 got a lot of bids, sure, including a No. 1 seed and some other high seeds. But the CAA has made more of their bids. Just looking at the number of bids supposes that you just look at how many teams made the tournament, and just stop there, without thinking that VCU and George Mason are Final Four teams. That's the mistake. Performance in the tournament matters.

Look at his post again. It includes BIDS and WINS. C'mon, you have a Patriot League Education, right? Read the whole post.

[Redbird Ray]

Wow really? A final four team didn't belong in the tourney?

Probably should have been DePaul eh? I mean they finished in the top 16 in the Big East this year. That means they're probably better than every non-BCS team combined.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Look at his post again. It includes BIDS and WINS. C'mon, you have a Patriot League Education, right? Read the whole post.

So Richmond beating Morehead State to make the Sweet 16 in this world is equivalent to VCU defeating Kansas in the Elite Eight? I can play this game all day.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Wow really? A final four team didn't belong in the tourney?

Probably should have been DePaul eh? I mean they finished in the top 16 in the Big East this year. That means they're probably better than every non-BCS team combined.

They didn't even meet as a team for the selection show. They didn't even believe they belonged in the tourney.

What happened after the selection was incredible, just pointing out that they didn't belong in the tourney by really any objective analysis.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

So Richmond beating Morehead State to make the Sweet 16 in this world is equivalent to VCU defeating Kansas in the Elite Eight? I can play this game all day.

I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion. Air must be thin on the Lehigh mountain. Just look at the numbers in URMite's post.

[ur2k]

Factor out a home games this year with VCU and ODU, and I bet your average probably goes down.

I mentioned your rebound this year though I think my point remains valid. You had mediocre years in the CAA as well. When you have these leaner years, you can't convince me that home games with Mason, JMU, VCU, ODU, W&M would not draw much larger local interest in Richmond than GW, St. Bonnie, LaSalle, UMass, etc.
.

VCU is really the only team that travels in #s to our place. We play ODU a lot and they bring some, not many to the RC. W&M brings the players' families. JMU doesn't pay attention to basketball. Perhaps GMU would travel well.

Here's our home attendance for this past year.

11/12/10 THE CITADEL 6008
11/15/10 WILLIAM & MARY 4320
11/21/10 CHARLESTON SOUTHERN 4104
11/22/10 SOUTHERN 3126
12/11/10 VCU 8906
12/29/10 WAKE FOREST 8113
1/2/11 BUCKNELL 5426
*1/5/11 CHARLOTTE 4231
*1/13/11 RHODE ISLAND 6371
*1/19/11 GEORGE WASHINGTON 5039
*1/29/11 XAVIER 8514
*2/2/11 SAINT JOSEPH'S 5011
*2/12/11 SAINT LOUIS 6398
*2/20/11 ST. BONAVENTURE 7291
*3/5/11 DUQUESNE 6524

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

VCU is really the only team that travels in #s to our place. We play ODU a lot and they bring some, not many to the RC. W&M brings the players' families. JMU doesn't pay attention to basketball. Perhaps GMU would travel well.

Here's our home attendance for this past year.

11/12/10 THE CITADEL 6008
11/15/10 WILLIAM & MARY 4320
11/21/10 CHARLESTON SOUTHERN 4104
11/22/10 SOUTHERN 3126
12/11/10 VCU 8906
12/29/10 WAKE FOREST 8113
1/2/11 BUCKNELL 5426
*1/5/11 CHARLOTTE 4231
*1/13/11 RHODE ISLAND 6371
*1/19/11 GEORGE WASHINGTON 5039
*1/29/11 XAVIER 8514
*2/2/11 SAINT JOSEPH'S 5011
*2/12/11 SAINT LOUIS 6398
*2/20/11 ST. BONAVENTURE 7291
*3/5/11 DUQUESNE 6524

Hell, the game against Southern was at Noon on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving. It's as much of an outlier as the VCU game is.

[ur2k]

Hell, the game against Southern was at Noon on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving. It's as much of an outlier as the VCU game is.

Avg home attendance for 15 games was 5,959
Throw out the 2 outliers (Southern and VCU) and its 5,950
Throw out just the VCU game and its 5,748

I'd compare this to our years in the CAA but I can't find a comprehensive list of home attendance since the Robins Center opened in 1972. By the way, total capacity for the arena is 9,071.

[49RFootballNow]

http://blogs.forbes.com/sportsmoney/2011/03/01/revenue-comparisons-among-division-i-mens-basketball-conferences/

FYI on conference men's basketball revenue.

[bostonspider]

Here is the payouts form the last five years by the NCAA to the A10 and CAA

A-10 $4.6 $4.8 $4.4 $5.6 $6.4 $25.8
Colonial $1.1 $2.1 $2.7 $2.7 $2.9 $11.6

[URMite]

Wow really? A final four team didn't belong in the tourney?

Probably should have been DePaul eh? I mean they finished in the top 16 in the Big East this year. That means they're probably better than every non-BCS team combined.

If Depaul had been given a bid (based on their regular season performance) and had made the final 4, would that mean that they did belong in the tourney?

FWIW personally I think VCU was a borderline and unexpected choice but not an outrageous one.

If all the players on all the teams from this past season were returning for next season, would your preseason poll look like the final coaches poll?

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings

[URMite]

So Richmond beating Morehead State to make the Sweet 16 in this world is equivalent to VCU defeating Kansas in the Elite Eight? I can play this game all day.

So can I...BTW I listed Bids, Wins, Sweet 16s, Elite 8s, and Final 4s as that was the easiest performance info to obtain (my time is limited during tax season).

If you were a hypothetical team looking at entering one of two hypothetical conferences would you choose the one that had 1 auto & 1 at-large bids and 1 1st round loss & 1 finals loss each of the last 3 years? or the one with 1 auto & 4 at-large bids and 5 second round losses each of the last 3 years? (Don't forget that all of that is hypothetical...)