LFN: How the NCAA Tournament Might Affect CAA Football

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/03/how-ncaa-tournament-might-affect-caa.html

A big-picture piece which links together UMass, Villanova, and UNC Charlotte - and the CAA's future. The more you look at it, the more the CAA's future involves the NCAA tournament - specifically, THIS NCAA tournament.

[49RFootballNow]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/03/how-ncaa-tournament-might-affect-caa.html

A big-picture piece which links together UMass, Villanova, and UNC Charlotte - and the CAA's future. The more you look at it, the more the CAA's future involves the NCAA tournament - specifically, THIS NCAA tournament.

I think that if George Mason and ODU play each other for the national championship Judy Rose still will want us in the A-10. xchinscratchx

[RabidRabbit]

Rumor speculation from out west is that Youngstown St. may be interested in a CAA offer too. Certainly for football, but possibly all sports?

This discussion reaches all the way to the Big Sky.

[Go...gate]

As ever, a fine job, LFN.

[superman7515]

Looks like three teams from the CAA are in; Old Dominion, George Mason, and Virginia Commonwealth.

[aceinthehole]

Looks like three teams from the CAA are in; Old Dominion, George Mason, and Virginia Commonwealth.

Very good job for the CAA. Now they need some wins!

(A-10 also got 3 teams)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think I'm going to blog about this a bit today. While the CAA made history with three teams and two at-large bids (the CAA was a real beneficiary to the expansion of the field to 68 teams), the NCAA did them no favors in seeding. The CAA could be gone by Round Two.

ODU/Butler in round one? My Hofstra friend calls it mid-on-mid crime, and boy, is that ever evident in that game alone. The hardest game to pick in Round One, BTW.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://bit.ly/hpG8tr

I talk a little bit about seeding and how, even though ESPN seems to worry about why the sixth-place teams in the ACC and Big XII aren't getting justice, mid-majors are getting more screwed than ever, especially in terms of seeding.

For example, I think Bucknell's path the the Sweet Sixteen is a lot easier than George Mason's, Old Dominion's, or VCU's. Of the CAA teams, VCU's might be the one with the best shot - and they play en extra game.

[superman7515]

CAA gets win #1, over the PAC 10...
VCU 59 - USC 46

[VBR_Productions]

Go, Monarchs.

[glsjunior]

They should just call it the Virginia Invitational Tourament.

[superman7515]

Tip in with about 1 second left on the clock and ODU falls.
Old Dominion 58 - Butler 60. No shame in this game for the Monarchs, Butler made the NC last year and a 9 over an 8 isn't really an upset.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Tip in with about 1 second left on the clock and ODU falls.
Old Dominion 58 - Butler 60. No shame in this game for the Monarchs, Butler made the NC last year and a 9 over an 8 isn't really an upset.

Very true - but the slim hope that a CAA team was going to cut like a hot knife through butter in the NCAA tournament just got a little slimmer. As I said earlier, VCU's road to the Sweet 16 is way easier than ODU's or George Mason's.

In other news, Temple is beating Penn State at halftime, and Xavier and Richmond are still to go. Imagine if the CAA goes 0-3 in the Round of 64 while the A-10 goes 3-0 - there won't be talk of the CAA > A-10 in hoops any time soon then.

[DFW HOYA]

Any future scenario the PL would get two teams in the tournament?

[superman7515]

Any future scenario the PL would get two teams in the tournament?

All you would need is one team to go undefeated while playing a top 40 schedule in the RPI and then get upset in the conference tournament... xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Any future scenario the PL would get two teams in the tournament?

Yes, if Georgetown basketball decides to do the unthinkable and unimaginable.

[DFW HOYA]

Yes, if Georgetown basketball decides to do the unthinkable and unimaginable.

They would sooner join the CAA.

[Bogus Megapardus]

They would sooner join the CAA.

One can dream. It's not as if the question has never come up.

[DFW HOYA]

One can dream. It's not as if the question has never come up.

Maybe in Center Valley, but not in Washington.

In a parallel universe, of course, the PL would go to Fordham and Stony Brook (an AAU school, so the academics are there), offer them full scholarship football in exchange for joining in all sports, and grow to 10 schools. It would then go to Loyola and Boston U with the offer to join w/o football, but always leave the door open.

12 schools in basketball, two divisions (Colgate, HC, Boston U, Fordham, Stony Brook, Army ... American, Bucknell, Lehigh, Lafayette, Loyola, Navy).

But this is the PL, so they'll wait for a line to form at the door... Hopefully, it's the door that reads "IN" and not "OUT".

[GannonFan]

Very true - but the slim hope that a CAA team was going to cut like a hot knife through butter in the NCAA tournament just got a little slimmer. As I said earlier, VCU's road to the Sweet 16 is way easier than ODU's or George Mason's.

In other news, Temple is beating Penn State at halftime, and Xavier and Richmond are still to go. Imagine if the CAA goes 0-3 in the Round of 64 while the A-10 goes 3-0 - there won't be talk of the CAA > A-10 in hoops any time soon then.

Any rational fan knows the A10 is better than the CAA in men's hoops - if you take GMU's run to the Final Four out of the equation, and it's not even been that close over the past few years.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Any rational fan knows the A10 is better than the CAA in men's hoops - if you take GMU's run to the Final Four out of the equation, and it's not even been that close over the past few years.

This implies that Mr. Yeager isn't a rational fan, then, only offering a CAA full invite to Charlotte instead of an affiliate membership, because using your though process it's ludicrous to think that CAA basketball is equal to, or better than, the A-10.

****

In other news, do you think teams will be knocking at the door to become Patriot League all-sports programs after UConn beat around Bucknell like a rented mule? While I don't think teams like Georgetown or Villanova ever had it under consideration, if an academe or two had thoughts in their skulls that maybe the Wildcats or Hoyas would do just fine in basketball in the PL, last night's debacle certainly put any wild thoughts of that to rest.

[superman7515]

Speaking of Georgetown and Villanova... Virginia Commonwealth knocks off Georgetown from the Big East in a blow out. Georgetown was ranked as high as #9 during the season. George Mason knocks out Villanova from the Big East. Villanova was ranked as high as #5 during the season. CAA teams are currently 3-1 in the tournament, so the CAA can't finish worse than .500 in the tourney, with a win over the Pac 10 and two wins over the Big East.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Their two wins today made the "race" between the CAA and A-10 a lot more interesting, as was Xavier's massive flop today. While the A-10 has a slight advantage for potential Sweet 16s (Richmond vs. Morehead State is the easiest path,), it's now a lot harder to claim that the "gap" is all that great.

Temple (10), Richmond (12), VCU (11), Mason (9) - you'd be hard pressed to say any team is way better than any other.

Of course, next round will be interesting, too, as any one of these teams could beat a giant or two. But if Mason takes down Ohio State - we have a winner.

[LeadBolt]

Their two wins today made the "race" between the CAA and A-10 a lot more interesting, as was Xavier's massive flop today. While the A-10 has a slight advantage for potential Sweet 16s (Richmond vs. Morehead State is the easiest path,), it's now a lot harder to claim that the "gap" is all that great.

Temple (10), Richmond (12), VCU (11), Mason (9) - you'd be hard pressed to say any team is way better than any other.

Of course, next round will be interesting, too, as any one of these teams could beat a giant or two. But if Mason takes down Ohio State - we have a winner.

Don't forget the ODU effort. By far the best game of the tourney so far with 21 lead changes vs. a finalist from last year. Hard to compare that with the Xavier beat down...

[Jackman]

The A10 and CAA are still deadlocked in this tournament. Nobody is playing better than VCU, but Temple's 2OT loss beats GMU's 32 point drubbing.

It'd be great if Richmond and VCU can keep this going for one more round and settle it in the Elite Eight, with a trip to the Final Four on the line. That game would be ridiculous.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's eerie the parallels between the two conferences after Weekend One.

Xavier --> pounded in 1st round by a Sweet 16 team, Marquette
George Mason --> beat Villanova in 1st round, pounded in 2nd round by a Sweet 16 team, Ohio State

Old Dominion --> beat by buzzer-beater in 1st round by a Sweet 16 team, Butler
Temple --> beat Penn State in 1st round, lost in 2OT by a Sweet 16 team, San Diego State

VCU - Sweet 16 team, beat USC, Georgetown & Purdue
Richmond - Sweet 16 team, beat Vanderbilt & Morehead State

I agree, it can only be settled through an Elite Eight matchup! xnodx xlolx

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I cannot remember which Bucknell tournament year it was in the middle of the last decade, it seemed as though Bucknell had played their way in, with a top 25 ranking in season's final pre-conf. tournaments' poll. (Forgive my lack of typical Bison minutiae recall in such matters-- I was based in Europe, gettin people to webcam games to me over AOL Messenger.) They won the PL tourney saving some BCS conference bridesmaid her spot. Paulsen looked thunderstruck on TV, but that was the first time.

Being a Hartford area native, I was to lose one team Thursday night and the UConn steamroller was still greased. LFN-- I don't know how much overplay is here. Basketball rules from Tobacco Road north, especially urban and religious schools. Virginia Tech has been the anomaly. The seemingly urgent vacancy being created by possible moves by UMass and Villanova would have you forget that, amid the many earlier deathknells for the Yankee Conference and the other successors, the next iteration coelesced. Yankee Conference... a hallowed folk tale memory... AE Football even sounds odd. Is that set of CAA football programs willing to step back in stature and RPI to incubate such a series of new programs for the sake of a long-lived all-sports regional conference in Division 1? Who gets them to swear to stay? Football has not been the lynchpin , rather the first bit discarded.

[jmufan]

Was happy to see VCU win and Richmond lose to advance to the Elite 8. VCU didn't play as well as they did against Georgetown or Purdue, but well enough to beat a tough Florida State team.

Time for VCU to take out the Big 12.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Cinderella slipper fits VCU, and it looks like it will be awful hard not to call the CAA the winner of this tournament no matter what happens on Sunday. After this tournament, it will be tough to argue that all-sports CAA membership is no better than all-sports A-10 membership. All VCU needs to do is to play Kansas closer than Richmond, which should not be hard to do.

Funny how I was so right about VCU's path being much, much easier than ODU's or George Mason's, but wrong about everything else. Furthermore, you could say that the CAA did better with their seedings than the A-10 did with theirs. Xavier, in particular, was a complete dud - and they had a golden opportunity to do some damage.

[aceinthehole]

The Cinderella slipper fits VCU, and it looks like it will be awful hard not to call the CAA the winner of this tournament no matter what happens on Sunday. After this tournament, it will be tough to argue that all-sports CAA membership is no better than all-sports A-10 membership. All VCU needs to do is to play Kansas closer than Richmond, which should not be hard to do.

Funny how I was so right about VCU's path being much, much easier than ODU's or George Mason's, but wrong about everything else. Furthermore, you could say that the CAA did better with their seedings than the A-10 did with theirs. Xavier, in particular, was a complete dud - and they had a golden opportunity to do some damage.

CAA had a better year this year, but its has to become a regular occurance. The CAA is well on their way to being on par with the A-10 - GMU to the Final Four, now VCU to the Elight Eight.

Really, the only thing missing for the CAA is a TV contract. This is always about $$$. The CAA is proving it can win in the NCAAs (and earn tourney shares). If they can get a get some additional revenue.

[superman7515]

CAA had a better year this year, but its has to become a regular occurance. The CAA is well on their way to being on par with the A-10 - GMU to the Final Four, now VCU to the Elight Eight.

Really, the only thing missing for the CAA is a TV contract. This is always about $$$. The CAA is proving it can win in the NCAAs (and earn tourney shares). If they can get a get some additional revenue.

Well VCU is now going to the Final Four, the second CAA team to do so (George Mason, 2006). The A-10 has only sent one team to the Final Four (UMass 1996), and it was vacated by the NCAA because Marcus Camby was paid $28,000.

[jmufan999]

bump (edit: someone posted 1 minute before me)

[aceinthehole]

Well, now the CAA just has to capitalize on this with a TV contract and the A-10 is in dead and buried.

CAA has had 2 Final Four teams in the last 6 seasons. Only the Big East, ACC, and Pac-10 has had more FF apperances in that same period.

The last (and only) A-10 team to make the Final Four - UMass in 1996.

(Edit: guess we are all think the same think)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well, now the CAA just has to capitalize on this with a TV contract and the A-10 is in dead and buried.

Part of the by-product of this is that they could poach UNCC from the A-10.... and possibly others.

VCU > Kansas by 10. Kansas > Richmond by a lot. Trust me this win is enormous in terms of the CAA's head-to-head situation against the A-10.

[Jackman]

The CAA definitely had a better year than the A10, but you don't make conference decisions based on one year. What's Charlotte going to do next year if an 11th seeded A10 team makes a run and the CAA goes back to being a 1-bid league, switch back?

There's no inherent reason why the CAA can't be as good or better than the A10, but this was the CAA's first multiple at-large bid season in the conference's entire history, and it took an expanded tournament field to get that. Prior to this season the CAA had a grand total 3 at-large bids in 27 years. The A10 had 46 at-large bids over the same time period.

If the CAA can outperform the A10 for 2 more years, then it's officially a trend and definitely a strong argument. But holding the CAA forth as a superior conference because it's a great place to make a Final Four run as an 11th seed is a real stretch. There are plenty of dumpy conferences with AQs you can try to horde if the goal is to make the tournament as a double-digit seed and pull off several consecutive upsets to make the semifinals.

[jmufan]

Sorry, the CAA is just better all around. The A-10 isn't that attractive. Just personal opinion of course.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The A10 will be fine. Richmond beat VCU by 12 earlier in the season for whatever that's worth. Temple will be a pre-season top 15 team next year and one has to believe Xavier will be up there as well. There's no doubt the A10 needs to make a Final 4 run but year in and year out the league does very well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the CAA can outperform the A10 for 2 more years, then it's officially a trend and definitely a strong argument. But holding the CAA forth as a superior conference because it's a great place to make a Final Four run as an 11th seed is a real stretch. There are plenty of dumpy conferences with AQs you can try to horde if the goal is to make the tournament as a double-digit seed and pull off several consecutive upsets to make the semifinals.

You're missing something huge here. VCU is, of course, a Final Four team, cutting through a swathe of Big Conferences to do it. Old Dominion was last-gasp layup away from beating Butler, another Final Four team. George Mason beat Villanova and then lost to the No. 1 team in the nation, no disrespect there.

Xavier? Pounded by Marquette, and it wasn't even close. Temple? They beat Penn State and took SDSU to overtime, but they couldn't make the Sweet 16. Richmond? They did get a solid win against Vanderbilt, sure, but lucked into Morehead State in the Round of 32 and got drilled by the same Kansas team that lost by 10 to VCU.

The A-10 won against exactly one Top 25 team to end the year: Vanderbilt. The CAA won against two teams in the ORV column (Georgetown and Villanova), the No. 13 team in the nation (Purdue), and the No. 2 team in the nation. Never mind the fact that VCU needed to play a PIG to make it as well.

There is just no comparison between the two conferences, looking back from where we are now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The A10 will be fine. Richmond beat VCU by 12 earlier in the season for whatever that's worth.

It's worth nothing. VCU is getting the CAA and its schools millions of NCAA dollars. Richmond is getting some money for their Sweet 16 appearance and a case of Turtle Wax.

[Jackman]

It's one year in a one-and-done tournament. Kudos to the CAA, they earned it, but what are you suggesting? Would you say that Xavier should turn down an invitation to the Big Ten and move to the Horizon, because Butler made it to the Final Four two years in a row and no Big Ten team survived past the Sweet 16 this year? And how about if the A10 grabs 2 of the 3 critical CAA members (ODU, GMU and VCU)? Then what does the CAA have? They've barely got a FCS Football conference at this point with only 6 all-sports members, 2 of which haven't even started playing conference games yet. Let's take a step back. The CAA is a lot closer to making this a valid argument with this VCU run, but they're not there yet.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Someone obviously likes the A10!

Mooney signed an extension with Richmond!

http://www.richmondspiders.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/032711aaa.html

[aceinthehole]

LFN likes to go overboard on everything, but A-10 appoligist have to accept that 2 Final Four teams in 6 years is huge and can't be underestimated.

The missing piece for the CAA is a TV contract. If they can get that, then its a whole new ballgame. This year was a HUGE step in that direction.

[Longhorn]

It's one year in a one-and-done tournament. Kudos to the CAA, they earned it, but what are you suggesting? Would you say that Xavier should turn down an invitation to the Big Ten and move to the Horizon, because Butler made it to the Final Four two years in a row and no Big Ten team survived past the Sweet 16 this year? And how about if the A10 grabs 2 of the 3 critical CAA members (ODU, GMU and VCU)? Then what does the CAA have? They've barely got a FCS Football conference at this point with only 6 all-sports members, 2 of which haven't even started playing conference games yet. Let's take a step back. The CAA is a lot closer to making this a valid argument with this VCU run, but they're not there yet.

You're entitled to your opinion, but your argument for the A10 makes very little sense. The A10 is a conference dominated by smaller, private schools whose marque sport is men's basketball. Even if the A10's performance in its marque sport is considered stronger than the CAA (a point which is debatable) as an all-sports league, the A10 has no chance...less than 0%...of attracting any large VA public uni, especially one like ODU with higher aspirations in football.

Yes, let's step back..the A10 is a conference whose claim to fame in men's basketball is threatened by the CAA, and the CAA, dominated by large publics, is posed to continue its upward trajectory in national name recognition. VCU's run to the Final Four (following Mason's recent appearance) dwarfs the A10s recent basketball success. Those are undeniable facts. As such it wouldn't surprise anyone to see UNCC decide to leave the A10 for the CAA based on VCU's and Mason's NCAAT success, possibly setting in motion other shifts in conference affiliation. Perhaps a trade can be worked out where Hofstra, Drexel and Northeastern can be traded to the A10 in exchange for UNCC, Temple and UMass? xsmiley_wix

The A10 would appear to be at risk of being eclipsed by the CAA. The CAA's current basketball success may indeed lead to a bigger and better TV contract, which would continue to fuel the perception that the A10 is in decline, and the CAA is ascendant. Time will tell, but if I was choosing between the two leagues as "stocks"...I'd be recommending the A10 as a "sell" and the CAA as a "buy."

[Longhorn]

LFN likes to go overboard on everything, but A-10 appoligist have to accept that 2 Final Four teams in 6 years is huge and can't be underestimated.

The missing piece for the CAA is a TV contract. If they can get that, then its a whole new ballgame. This year was a HUGE step in that direction.

CAA does have a TV contract for men's basketball though Comcast...and it typically broadcasts 2 conference games a week.

But I assume you're suggesting a bigger TV contract, with a wider, more national audience (vs. the regional Comcast market).

[superman7515]

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/Southlick/kansas1.gif

[henfan]

It's one year in a one-and-done tournament. Kudos to the CAA, they earned it, but what are you suggesting? Would you say that Xavier should turn down an invitation to the Big Ten and move to the Horizon, because Butler made it to the Final Four two years in a row and no Big Ten team survived past the Sweet 16 this year? And how about if the A10 grabs 2 of the 3 critical CAA members (ODU, GMU and VCU)? Then what does the CAA have? They've barely got a FCS Football conference at this point with only 6 all-sports members, 2 of which haven't even started playing conference games yet. Let's take a step back. The CAA is a lot closer to making this a valid argument with this VCU run, but they're not there yet.

We can usually count on you for reasoned posts but this is completely off the mark, J.

As has been pointed out, the CAA's appearance in the Final Four isn't a single year fluke. It's happened twice in the last half dozen years, which is in stark contrast to the A-10 record of Final Four appearances during the same period.

You know as well as anyone that the A-10 has ZERO shot at attracting any current CAA school not named Hofstra and especially any with FB or designs of a potential FB startup. Those days are long past. ODU, forgetaboutit. If GMU or VCU have any interest at all in starting FB programs, the A-10 will not even get a sniff from them.

The A-10 blew a huge opportunity when, thanks to Linda Bruno, it bungled the handling of its FB conference. I have to think the America East is kicking itself in arse as well. If they have voted to take over the CAA according to the Sept. 2000 expansion plan, they'd be sitting on top of two Final Four MBB appearances and a rock solid FCS FB league. (Thanks, Vermont, Hartford & BU!)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You know as well as anyone that the A-10 has ZERO shot at attracting any current CAA school not named Hofstra and especially any with FB or designs of a potential FB startup.

If Rabinowitz killed football to impress the A-10, how much of an idiot does he look like now? He could have been a rock-solid member of the CAA in all sports, and squarely hitched his wagon to their success in not only basketball but football. Now, he looks like a guy whose vision isn't in line with the rest of the conference and whose vision for athletics is more in line with the descendant A-10 instead of the rising CAA. xlolx

I do think back a lot to the CAA's decision five years ago to take over the property that was A-10 football that Linda Bruno couldn't get rid of fast enough. After that move, the CAA has changed from a tiny conference primarily known for basketball to a true all-sports conference whose future is extremely bright in the course of a decade.

[henfan]

After that move, the CAA has changed from a tiny conference primarily known for basketball to a true all-sports conference whose future is extremely bright in the course of a decade.

Yup, and the even bigger story is how the CAA rose to its current position after being within a whisker of losing its NCAA autobid altogether circa 2000 after East Carolina, American & Richmond bolted in quick succession.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

CAA does have a TV contract for men's basketball though Comcast...and it typically broadcasts 2 conference games a week.

But I assume you're suggesting a bigger TV contract, with a wider, more national audience (vs. the regional Comcast market).

I would like to see something with Fox Sports Network, 'cause at least then it will be available to non-Comcast viewers.

Makes me think though. If the CAA leaves (maybe the better question is could leave) Comcast for a FoxSports, then what does that mean for the football telecasts?

While CAA basketball might be attractive to FoxSports, I don't know if FCS football will be. And if the CAA takes its basketball broadcast to FoxSports, does Comcast take an all or nothing attitude, and no longer televise CAA football games?

[hebmskebm]

If Rabinowitz killed football to impress the A-10, how much of an idiot does he look like now? He could have been a rock-solid member of the CAA in all sports, and squarely hitched his wagon to their success in not only basketball but football. Now, he looks like a guy whose vision isn't in line with the rest of the conference and whose vision for athletics is more in line with the descendant A-10 instead of the rising CAA. xlolx

I do think back a lot to the CAA's decision five years ago to take over the property that was A-10 football that Linda Bruno couldn't get rid of fast enough. After that move, the CAA has changed from a tiny conference primarily known for basketball to a true all-sports conference whose future is extremely bright in the course of a decade.

I'm certainly with you in declaring the CAA rising, but the A-10 "descending"? Come on, man, that is ridiculous hyperbole. The A-10 is still a solid basketball conference. The CAA moving up does not mean the A-10 is moving down. If you're trying to say the CAA is becoming a more well-rounded conference than the A-10, then I'd have to agree. But A-10 hoops is doing just fine.

[Jackman]

Maybe there's some confusion about what we're arguing about here. If the argument is who has had the better tournament appearances over the last 5 years, then I agree that VCU's run this year puts the CAA over the top. But if, as I believe the premise of this thread is about, we are arguing about the better conference in which to place your basketball team, the A10 still wins.

In that context, George Mason's Final Four run in 2006 isn't as important as St. Joseph's Elite Eight run in 2004, because GMU got there as a #11 seed and St. Joe's got there as a #1 seed. You don't choose your conference based on where you can get a #11 seed. You can get that almost anywhere.

The most important considerations when choosing a basketball conference are revenue vs. expenses, number of at-large bids, and seeding. In Charlotte's case, the A10 still wins in all of those categories. What VCU's run this year does is position the CAA to improve in all of those areas and possibly overtake the A10, but that doesn't happen when the final buzzer sounds and Shaka Smart charges on to the court. A conference affiliation is a long term commitment (unless your name is Virginia Tech).

If CAA fans are going to push this argument that one year's tournament performance is the most important factor in ranking a conference, then where does that put the CAA vs. the Horizon League? Moreover, where does that put CAA Football vs. the Big Sky? Call me way off the mark, but even if travel costs were equal, I'm going to say that CAA Football is still a better conference for football than the Big Sky, based on the number of playoff bids and the slightly favorable TV deal. No disrespect to Eastern Washington, they won the championship fair and... well, let's not bring that up again. If we go in that direction, VCU never should have made it past the CAA Tournament quarterfinals and thus should have ended up in the NIT, but even with their Final Four run I think my point still stands.

I also don't agree that the CAA's Big Three would never consider moving to the A10, but that's a somewhat separate discussion and not likely to happen anyway. All I'm going to say is that if the A10 put it to ODU that they could come over and bring any one of GMU, VCU or JMU with them, that along with UR would get it done, especially if the A10 says that if ODU turns them down, they'll pursue 2 of GMU, VCU and JMU instead. Unless I am vastly underestimating Virginia mid-major public university solidarity, I think it's highly likely that 1 of the CAA's 5 Virginians would be tempted and set the other dominoes in motion. But the A10 will never do that because the private universities have seized control from the publics and they only want more of their own. They'd sooner invite Butler.

[49RFootballNow]

The two conferences should just merge and get it over with. Drop off the bottom 3rd of non-football basketball schools then call it a day.

[Jackman]

Take a look at this graphic below and tell me what you see:

http://i51.tinypic.com/313n604.gif

What I see is that the A10 isn't as good as it used to be (which is true), but that the CAA has its two magical Final Four runs and a whole lot of nothing. This is not the portrait of one conference overtaking another. The CAA didn't accomplish anything in the 4 years after the last Final Four appearance except grab a rare (for them) at-large bid in the first year following it. They have to do better -- or the A10 has to do worse -- following this year's Final Four appearance to turn this into an argument. They're not there yet.

[Tim James]

I think it would help the A10 if they got rid of some of the "dead weight" schools with the poor facilities but of course teams never get "kicked out" of conferences it seems.

[Longhorn]

Maybe there's some confusion about what we're arguing about here. If the argument is who has had the better tournament appearances over the last 5 years, then I agree that VCU's run this year puts the CAA over the top. But if, as I believe the premise of this thread is about, we are arguing about the better conference in which to place your basketball team, the A10 still wins.

In that context, George Mason's Final Four run in 2006 isn't as important as St. Joseph's Elite Eight run in 2004, because GMU got there as a #11 seed and St. Joe's got there as a #1 seed. You don't choose your conference based on where you can get a #11 seed. You can get that almost anywhere.

The most important considerations when choosing a basketball conference are revenue vs. expenses, number of at-large bids, and seeding. In Charlotte's case, the A10 still wins in all of those categories. What VCU's run this year does is position the CAA to improve in all of those areas and possibly overtake the A10, but that doesn't happen when the final buzzer sounds and Shaka Smart charges on to the court. A conference affiliation is a long term commitment (unless your name is Virginia Tech).

If CAA fans are going to push this argument that one year's tournament performance is the most important factor in ranking a conference, then where does that put the CAA vs. the Horizon League? Moreover, where does that put CAA Football vs. the Big Sky? Call me way off the mark, but even if travel costs were equal, I'm going to say that CAA Football is still a better conference for football than the Big Sky, based on the number of playoff bids and the slightly favorable TV deal. No disrespect to Eastern Washington, they won the championship fair and... well, let's not bring that up again. If we go in that direction, VCU never should have made it past the CAA Tournament quarterfinals and thus should have ended up in the NIT, but even with their Final Four run I think my point still stands.

I also don't agree that the CAA's Big Three would never consider moving to the A10, but that's a somewhat separate discussion and not likely to happen anyway. All I'm going to say is that if the A10 put it to ODU that they could come over and bring any one of GMU, VCU or JMU with them, that along with UR would get it done, especially if the A10 says that if ODU turns them down, they'll pursue 2 of GMU, VCU and JMU instead. Unless I am vastly underestimating Virginia mid-major public university solidarity, I think it's highly likely that 1 of the CAA's 5 Virginians would be tempted and set the other dominoes in motion. But the A10 will never do that because the private universities have seized control from the publics and they only want more of their own. They'd sooner invite Butler.

A10 is wack. xlolx

Seriously tho...you wrote "I think it's highly likely that 1 of the CAA's 5 Virginians would be tempted"??? You really believe that? Oh dear lord, yes, then you are severely underestimating the solidarity of VA publics.

I've already shared the chance that any single VA school (or combination of ODU, GMU, VCU and or JMU) would consider moving to the A10 is less than zero. But believe what you want. In the meantime, let me rephrase...the chance a CAA VA public actually moves to the A10...especially those with FB, or FB aspirations, is off the charts in negative numbers. It will NEVER happen. NEVER. EVER. NEVER. Honestly, your premise is just bat-***** looney. No offense intended.

In the end, this isn't just about MBB...it's about finding a home for all-sports (in a single league) and in a conference whose institutions share an academic mission that are in near alignment. The CAA is gravitating into a league led by medium-large to large publics...whose self-image (and public resources) have them looking to compete on a major regional/national stage. That honestly doesn't describe the A10, nor it's future prospects.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The problem with the A10 is there's a drastic difference between the have and have nots. Temple and Xavier run their programs as if they're in a BCS conference. Dayton, URI, St. Joe's, Charlotte, St. Louis, GWU and Umass(??) are somewhere in between. Then there's SBU, Duquesne, La Salle and Fordham. They're basically low end mid majors, ala bottom of the barrel WCC teams. Fordham might be a low major at this point.

Go read the the A10 boards right now. Everyone knows the conference has to step up their game.

Chaney didn't leave Dunphy a complete disaster. It was however, a less than ideal situation at the time. Temple overacheived in 2008 and 2009. Without the A10 auto bid there's no tournament berth those years. Last year was a major dissapointment in many ways. Every projection had Temple as a 2 or 3 seed. Instead, we got a 5 and had to play a severly under seeded Cornell team.

We were poised for a run this year until injuries derailed our season. We lost 2 starters in February and still ended up within a whisker of the Sweet 16. All and all it was a good year.

Expectations will be extremely high for '11-'12. Dunphy finally got over the first round hump which was both big for him and Temple hoops. We return 7 of our top 8 players and add two redshirts and a highly touted recruit. We'll also start 4 seniors, all recruited by Dunphy. The pieces are in place assuming the injury bug stays away.

Xavier will have high hopes assuming Holloway comes back.

[Longhorn]

Take a look at this graphic below and tell me what you see:

http://i51.tinypic.com/313n604.gif

What I see is that the A10 isn't as good as it used to be (which is true), but that the CAA has its two magical Final Four runs and a whole lot of nothing. This is not the portrait of one conference overtaking another. The CAA didn't accomplish anything in the 4 years after the last Final Four appearance except grab a rare (for them) at-large bid in the first year following it. They have to do better -- or the A10 has to do worse -- following this year's Final Four appearance to turn this into an argument. They're not there yet.

So, using your nice charts, since 2006, the A10 boasts 13 NCAAT wins, and the CAA boasts 12 (and counting), plus two Final Four appearances, to zippo for the A10. Of course, this is a board devoted to FCS talk, so we really shouldn't loose sight of the fact that the CAA sponsors FB, and is an all-sports league composed of mostly public unis.

This is also about the here and now and "trends"...the "what have you done lately" question. And the trend is clear...not only is the CAA performing at a level equal to the A10 in basketball, the Final Four appearances gives them the edge. Perhaps that's a trend that will reverse itself, but I wouldn't bet a plug nickle on that happening.

[aceinthehole]

So, using your nice charts, since 2006, the A10 boasts 13 NCAA wins, and the CAA boasts 12 (and counting), plus two Final Four appearances, to zippo for the A10.

Exactly. And what also make this fact so important is that CAA now has nearly the same number of revenue shares coming their way in the next 6 years as the A-10 does.

[henfan]

In the end, this isn't just about MBB...it's about finding a home for all-sports (in a single league) and in a conference whose institutions share an academic mission that are in near alignment. The CAA is gravitating into a league led by medium-large to large publics...whose self-image (and public resources) have them looking to compete on a major regional/national stage. That honestly doesn't describe the A10, nor it's future prospects.

And that's it in a nutshell, isn't it? The CAA is an all-sport conference, whose schools share much closer institutional philosophies.

I couldn't be happier that UD declined an A-10 invite in the mid-'90's. It was a wise move then and, in retrospect, an even wiser move now.

[Jackman]

Seriously tho...you wrote "I think it's highly likely that 1 of the CAA's 5 Virginians would be tempted"??? You really believe that? Oh dear lord, yes, then you are severely underestimating the solidarity of VA publics.

I've already shared the chance that any single VA school (or combination of ODU, GMU, VCU and or JMU) would consider moving to the A10 is less than zero. But believe what you want. In the meantime, let me rephrase...the chance a CAA VA public actually moves to the A10...especially those with FB, or FB aspirations, is off the charts in negative numbers. It will NEVER happen. NEVER. EVER. NEVER. Honestly, your premise is just bat-***** looney. No offense intended.

I think your position is extremely overconfident bordering on absurd. Granted, the average CAA fan still seems to think Richmond's decision was pure insanity. One would think the world is flat and ends at the borders of Virginia. But if you tell 5 Virginians that there's a spot for 2 of them, I'm saying that someone is going to bite, if only out of paranoia that if they don't someone else will. Ending up on the wrong side of a 3 vs. 3 A10/CAA Virginia split would be bad. Whereas if the A10 only approached ODU and denied any interest in anyone else, then I would not be shocked if ODU carefully weighed that offer and reluctantly turned it down. Unfortunately, we will never know the answer to these questions because the A10 will never do any of these things.

As for the football conference, that's a nice carrot, but it's a separate entity from the CAA. There are more non-CAA members than CAA members in it at the moment, and if they fall below 6 full CAA members they have little-to-no leverage against anyone who wants to play their other sports elsewhere. For Charlotte, who wants to get in for football-only from the outside, there remains a problematic hurdle to clear because they still won't have the votes to get in regardless, but for someone who is already in CAA Football, getting out of the non-football portion of the CAA just requires dropping off your exit fee at the Richmond office.



So, using your nice charts, since 2006, the A10 boasts 13 NCAAT wins, and the CAA boasts 12 (and counting), plus two Final Four appearances, to zippo for the A10.

This is also about the here and now and "trends"...the "what have you done lately" question. And the trend is clear...not only is the CAA performing at a level equal to the A10 in basketball, the Final Four appearances gives them the edge. Perhaps that's a trend that will reverse itself, but I wouldn't bet a plug nickle on that happening.

Two miraculous Final Four runs out of double-digit seeds is no trend. When the Missouri Valley Conference held a meeting to discuss how to manipulate the RPI in their favor, that was a conference implementing a plan that lead to a trend of increased tournament appearances. Nobody in the CAA has a formula for how to turn one of the last 4 teams invited to the tournament into a Final Four team. That just happens sometimes. Players get hot at the right time, a very young coach (Smart) or a very old coach (GMU) has an epiphany, and so on. If you could plan for that, everyone would do it. And if the CAA isn't sharing that secret recipe with ODU, they're sure as hell not going to share it with Charlotte.

The trend in the CAA can instead be summed up in binary code: ones and zeroes. Ones for the usual number of tournament invitations, and zeroes for the usual number of tournament wins. Do you know what types of conferences usually end up with 0 tournament wins? Conferences that only get 1 team into the tournament, and that 1 team gets a low seed. That sentence describes all of the worst conferences in the nation, and usually the CAA.

Now, I don't think the CAA is anywhere close to being among the worst conferences in the nation. I do in fact think that the CAA has the potential to catch and even overtake the A10. They can certainly get to the point where they average 2 bids per year, if the CAA's Big 3 can hold it together. But in terms of the measurable advantages you gain by being a member of the CAA, it hasn't been much better than the worst conference you can think of prior to this season. What exactly is an A10 member supposed to be so impressed with in the CAA to the point of switching allegiances? Is it the $25k TV contract? The conference tournament in a dilapidated arena in front of 90% VCU fans, sponsored by the Virginia 450-whatever plan? The frankenstein football conference stretching from Maine to Atlanta, where nobody knows for sure who they'll be playing against 2 years from now?

I mean, it's not a terrible place to be. Everything appears to be moving in the right direction, if nobody leaves for a FBS conference. But by no objective standard can the CAA be declared to have usurped the position of the A10. As I've said repeatedly, I could see that happening someday, but it simply hasn't yet.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Two miraculous Final Four runs out of double-digit seeds is no trend. When the Missouri Valley Conference held a meeting to discuss how to manipulate the RPI in their favor, that was a conference implementing a plan that lead to a trend of increased tournament appearances. Nobody in the CAA has a formula for how to turn one of the last 4 teams invited to the tournament into a Final Four team.

Freudian slip there, Jackman.... I think you know the CAA's formula... lobby to get your No. 3 team in, and have them run through the tournament and make it to the Final Four that way... xlolx xlolx xlolx

More seriously, though, the problem is, and has always been, scheduling. It's even hard for teams like Xavier and Temple to get qualify OOC games close to home, and if you've got a reputation as a giant-killer in a conference like the CAA, it's even more difficult to get games - more often, you'll be playing on the road, in bad situations, than in home in front of your home crowd. The only real solution is to schedule each other, i.e. Butler, Old Dominion and Xavier all playing each other, and hope that one or more ends up a top 100 team.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

More seriously, though, the problem is, and has always been, scheduling. It's even hard for teams like Xavier and Temple to get qualify OOC games close to home, and if you've got a reputation as a giant-killer in a conference like the CAA, it's even more difficult to get games - more often, you'll be playing on the road, in bad situations, than in home in front of your home crowd. The only real solution is to schedule each other, i.e. Butler, Old Dominion and Xavier all playing each other, and hope that one or more ends up a top 100 team.

You couldn't be more wrong about scheduling. Temple has a tremendous amount of scheduling power because of its location and tradition. In fact, Memphis is the only other "Mid-Major" that can get elite programs to come play on their home floor on a consistent basis. Respect is a wonderful thing.

In the last 10 years Temple has had on campus home games with Kansas, Georgetown, Illinois, Tennessee, Wisconsin, Indiana, Maryland, Wake Forest, Villanova, Alabama, N.C. State, Cincinnati, Seton Hall, Penn State and South Carolina.

We're playing Duke at the Wells Fargo Center next year.

Xavier has also shown the ability to land top flite OOC home games. Florida, Missouri, Tennessee, Kansas State, Illinois and Villanova have all visited the Cintas Center recently.

[jmufan]

Take a look at this graphic below and tell me what you see:

http://i51.tinypic.com/313n604.gif

What I see is that the A10 isn't as good as it used to be (which is true), but that the CAA has its two magical Final Four runs and a whole lot of nothing. This is not the portrait of one conference overtaking another. The CAA didn't accomplish anything in the 4 years after the last Final Four appearance except grab a rare (for them) at-large bid in the first year following it. They have to do better -- or the A10 has to do worse -- following this year's Final Four appearance to turn this into an argument. They're not there yet.

Multiple bids means nothing if you cannot use them to your advantage in tournament time. Two final four appearances is much greater than any number of bids given to a conference. Two CAA teams took advantage of getting an at large bid and made magic happen. The A-10 may have consistently gotten 3 teams in the tournament, but they have no magic.

[49RFootballNow]

Multiple bids means nothing if you cannot use them to your advantage in tournament time. Two final four appearances is much greater than any number of bids given to a conference. Two CAA teams took advantage of getting an at large bid and made magic happen. The A-10 may have consistently gotten 3 teams in the tournament, but they have no magic.

Multiple bids means multiple shares, which means your team gets paid better than a 1 bid conference whether that particular team made the tournament or not. I'd say getting paid more every year no matter what means something.

[jmufan]

Money is important, but not the all to be all. You cannot buy the type of name branding the CAA is receiving right now. The past couple of years in football through basketball. The CAA brand has and is becoming a household name known for a good conference that has beaten the likes of VT in football and two final four runs. So getting 3 bids a year for 3 or 4 years means nothing--unless you make something happen. The CAA has multiple bid years as well, but in five years have two final four appearances. Cannot debate that one. Perception whether right or wrong will be that the CAA is a better all around conference than the A-10.

[ngineer]

You couldn't be more wrong about scheduling. Temple has a tremendous amount of scheduling power because of its location and tradition. In fact, Memphis is the only other "Mid-Major" that can get elite programs to come play on their home floor on a consistent basis. Respect is a wonderful thing.

In the last 10 years Temple has had on campus home games with Kansas, Georgetown, Illinois, Tennessee, Wisconsin, Indiana, Maryland, Wake Forest, Villanova, Alabama, N.C. State, Cincinnati, Seton Hall, Penn State and South Carolina.

We're playing Duke at the Wells Fargo Center next year.

Xavier has also shown the ability to land top flite OOC home games. Florida, Missouri, Tennessee, Kansas State, Illinois and Villanova have all visited the Cintas Center recently.

Having a first class arena to host goes a long way, too. I don't know if Duke would be as interested if the game were played at the Liacouris Center.

[DFW HOYA]

Having a first class arena to host goes a long way, too. I don't know if Duke would be as interested if the game were played at the Liacouris Center.

The Liacouras Center is a fine arena-Georgetown has played there twice in recent years and it just hosted the NCAA Eastern Regionals for the women's tournament.

The A-10 has some very good arenas (Xavier, Temple, UMass, St. Louis) and some really poor ones (Fordham). The CAA has ODU, VCU, and George Mason to stand with the A-10, but many of its other facilities are 10-15 years behind (Georgia State and Towson).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thinking about this further, it's funny how what works for basketball (urban campus, proximity to pro or almost-pro arenas) works against football teams, which require a large stadium that's frequently out of the city and away from things like public transportation, etc. You can bet St. John's wouldn't exist without MSG, Seton Hall without the Prudential Center, or even Villanova without the Wells Fargo Center.

[DFW HOYA]

Thinking about this further, it's funny how what works for basketball (urban campus, proximity to pro or almost-pro arenas) works against football teams, which require a large stadium that's frequently out of the city and away from things like public transportation, etc. You can bet St. John's wouldn't exist without MSG, Seton Hall without the Prudential Center, or even Villanova without the Wells Fargo Center.

Then again, none of those schools are particularly close to these arenas: St. John's is 20 minutes on the LIRR and 30 on the subway from the Garden, Villanova is 20 minutes in traffic from Wells Fargo, and Seton Hall a mere 15 minutes west of Newark. St. John's or Villanova doesn't need these arenas since they have 6,000 seat facilities of their own, though of course the extra seats help.

Like Georgetown, Seton Hall never invested in faciltiies and are at the most critical exposure when it comes to off-campus rents.

[jmufan999]

all i know is this: you can talk rpi, stats, whatever you want...

but people said GMU's run a few years ago was lucky.

NOW we're supposed to believe that VCU is lucky too? and they both HAPPEN to be from the same conference? it's not an amazing coincidence, it's a RAPIDLY improving basketball conference. but the "luck" argument is the same argument people make against the CAA in football.... it's just "luck" that nearly every year, a CAA team is playing for a title. 5 different teams have won since 1998, still luck... not trying to change the subject, but the point is that how long before people finally say: WOW. this conference is good. and what happens if VCU wins it all? KU was supposedly the best team left in the tournament, right? the publicity that the CAA will get if VCU wins the whole thing will be off the charts... which means better recruits for VCU and the inevitable trickle down effect (first to GMU and ODU, then to the next "tier" of CAA schools who want to PLAY against those talented teams/players [expecting increased media coverage] ), etc.

by the way, i'm not saying VCU will win... just saying IF they win. and i think they at least have a shot.

[jmufan999]

just thought of this: only downside to VCU winning the title will be that FCS football will be THAT much closer for them.... more money, exposure, pressure from alumni.... i DO NOT WANT them to start a football team.... this state is oversaturated with football (specifically CAA football) as it is. STICK TO BBALL.

[Maroon&White]

This almost sounds like that CAA/SOCON debate. Is a conference better when one team goes deep in the playoffs and possibly wins it all, or when a conference gets more teams into playoffs but they don't go as far. Funny how CAA fans argue in favor of the CAA in both, yet they are in conflict with each other.

[DFW HOYA]

just thought of this: only downside to VCU winning the title will be that FCS football will be THAT much closer for them.... more money, exposure, pressure from alumni.... i DO NOT WANT them to start a football team.... this state is oversaturated with football (specifically CAA football) as it is. STICK TO BBALL.

Isn't the Commonwealth oversaturated with basketball--14 Div. I schools? Hasn't hurt them much.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Isn't the Commonwealth oversaturated with basketball--14 Div. I schools? Hasn't hurt them much.

Here's a funny thought: The CAA in the past six years (George Mason, VCU) have as many Final Four appearances from Commonwealth teams as the rest of them put together. Virginia was in the Final Four in 1981 and 1984 - no others then or since.

Nearby, Maryland (2002) and Georgetown (1984) have won the whole thing and are perennial Tourney teams. But the Commonwealth hasn't had a lot or relative success in basketball.

[DFW HOYA]

I wouldn't equate success with a state's cumulative Final Four appearances.

New York? Once since 1996.
Georgia: Once since 1990.
Pennsylvania: Once since 1985.
Texas? Once since 1984.
New Jersey? Once since 1976.

It's not always the four best teams that play in the Final Four, only the four teams that play the best down the stretch.

[blukeys]

This almost sounds like that CAA/SOCON debate. Is a conference better when one team goes deep in the playoffs and possibly wins it all, or when a conference gets more teams into playoffs but they don't go as far. Funny how CAA fans argue in favor of the CAA in both, yet they are in conflict with each other.

Not sure what you are talking about. CAA teams have made it the FCS finals in 2010, 2009, 2008,2007,2006,2004, and 2003. Please explain to me how 7 finalists in 8 years is evidence of a conference that "don't go as far"
Looks like typical Patriot jealousy at work here.

[Jackman]

He's talking about the years when App State won 3 straight championships. The debate was whether it reflected better on the conference to have the best playoff team or the larger number of playoff teams.

[JMUDuke2002]

But the Commonwealth hasn't had a lot or relative success in basketball.

Huh? If you ignore ODU, VCU, GMU, and UVa, then yeah not much success. Until recently, UVa was a lock or on the bubble during the 80s and 90s.

Tournament appearances for past 20 years.

UVa - 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 2001, 2007
ODU - 1992, 1995, 1997, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011
VCU - 1996, 2004, 2007, 2009, 2011 (Final 4)
GMU - 1999, 2001, 2006 (Final 4), 2008, 2011
JMU - 1994
Va Tech - 1996, 2007

Twenty seven tournament appearances, plus two final four teams. Granted, it isn't the success of NC. But, I hardly say state schools in Virginia have little success in basketball. This doesn't even include NIT births.

[glsjunior]

I wouldn't equate success with a state's cumulative Final Four appearances.

New York? Once since 1996.
Georgia: Once since 1990.
Pennsylvania: Once since 1985.
Texas? Once since 1984.
New Jersey? Once since 1976.

It's not always the four best teams that play in the Final Four, only the four teams that play the best down the stretch.

Georgia is twice if you include 1990. (Tech '90, '04)

[bostonspider]

Huh? If you ignore ODU, VCU, GMU, and UVa, then yeah not much success. Until recently, UVa was a lock or on the bubble during the 80s and 90s.

Tournament appearances for past 20 years.

UVa - 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 2001, 2007
ODU - 1992, 1995, 1997, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011
VCU - 1996, 2004, 2007, 2009, 2011 (Final 4)
GMU - 1999, 2001, 2006 (Final 4), 2008, 2011
JMU - 1994
Va Tech - 1996, 2007

Twenty seven tournament appearances, plus two final four teams. Granted, it isn't the success of NC. But, I hardly say state schools in Virginia have little success in basketball. This doesn't even include NIT births.

Plus
Richmond - 1991, 1998, 2004, 2010, 2011
Hampton - 2001, 2002, 2006, 2011
Liberty - 1994, 2004


So that is 38 appearances in 20 years.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Huh? If you ignore ODU, VCU, GMU, and UVa, then yeah not much success. Until recently, UVa was a lock or on the bubble during the 80s and 90s.

Tournament appearances for past 20 years.

UVa - 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 2001, 2007
ODU - 1992, 1995, 1997, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011
VCU - 1996, 2004, 2007, 2009, 2011 (Final 4)
GMU - 1999, 2001, 2006 (Final 4), 2008, 2011
JMU - 1994
Va Tech - 1996, 2007

Twenty seven tournament appearances, plus two final four teams. Granted, it isn't the success of NC. But, I hardly say state schools in Virginia have little success in basketball. This doesn't even include NIT births.

Interestingly, we both forgot Richmond in our computation. xlolx

Most of the Commonwealth teams have gotten in through autobids - but the data concludes, from the data you and I provided, that most of the success game from the so-called "mid majors" of the CAA (and, including Richmond, the A-10). Viriginia Tech has always been a basketball nobody for the most part, and while Viriginia had a good run in the 80s, and 90s, that run has long since ended. When including "mid-majors", though, you get a lot of success, including multiple Sweet 16 appearances (ODU, Richmond, VCU) and two final fours (George Mason, VCU).

That's yet another reason why saying "the CAA is an up and coming conference! Time will tell if they're actually any good!" is so ridiculous. Twenty years of history prove otherwise.