Morning Call: Football scholarship limbo detrimental to Patriot League

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.mcall.com/opinion/yourview/mc-patriot-league-burton-yv-0227-20110301,0,6269458.story

[DFW HOYA]

Agreed, but in the intervening months the following points bear repeating:

1. There was no consensus to follow Fordham's lead. (Maybe Colgate, but no one else stepped forward.)
2. There was no consensus to reject scholarships outright. (Maybe Lafayette, but that may have been cover for other issues.)
3. There were no scholarship candidates waiting to join if non-scholarship-leaning schools left over the vote.
4. There were no non-scholarship candidates waiting to join if scholarship-leaning schools left over the vote.
5. All five of the full-membership PL schools must remain together if the league will sponsor football after 2012.

Patriot League football is a patient in a hospital bed. The doctors (e.g., the presidents) couldn't guarantee the patient would make it through surgery, so the Rx was to take two aspirin and call them in 2012. In the end, that won't change the prognosis.

[carney2]

Thanks, LFN, for being the keeper of the flame here. Decision makers need to be prodded and bumped occasionally to remind them that all is not necessarily well just because the deciders have spoken - or, as in this case, not spoken.

And, thanks to our collective conscience, DFW, as well, for pointing out that all of the passion expressed on this board and elsewhere in mid December does not necessarily make a case for or against scholarships. The Patriot league ship is adrift and no one - no one! - seems willing to grab the tiller and steer for a port - any port. The pro-scholarship schools, to the extent that they actually exist beyond our cloudy reading of the available tea leaves, have not shown any signs that this is is the life and death matter that some on this board deem it to be. The Anti-scholarship institutions likewise, and despite some fantastical scenarios invented on this board, do not appear to have thrown down any "we will take our ball and leave" challenges.

DFW is correct in stating that there are no obvious candidates lined up to join the Patriot League when/if it makes an actual decision - either decision. I believe however, that those candidates would step forward if, for no other reason, than the world of FCS football in the northeast is changing very rapidly. The difference is that, with scholarships, the Patriot League continues with some version of D-1 football. Without them, the League moves into some sort of football purgatory - not viable as a D-1 entity, though that's what they claim to be, and looking more like D-3 than they anyone wishes.

[RichH2]

Any anticipation that bureaucrats will make any decision to change the status quo , absent extreme pressure is naive. I do agree that while I would prefer a vote for merit aid, any decision either pro or con is preferable to this limbo. Unrelated to any speculation of conference reshuffling, the fact is that once the current scheduling agreements( this season & next) are done Fordham will have little choice but to finish its departure. It would help if Rams could start showing some benefit from their scholarships.

[carney2]

Any anticipation that bureaucrats will make any decision to change the status quo , absent extreme pressure is naive. I do agree that while I would prefer a vote for merit aid, any decision either pro or con is preferable to this limbo. Unrelated to any speculation of conference reshuffling, the fact is that once the current scheduling agreements( this season & next) are done Fordham will have little choice but to finish its departure. It would help if Rams could start showing some benefit from their scholarships.

The Rams will be playing UConn and Army this fall in addition to the usual suspects. At a minimum, that is a dollars and cents benefit.

[RichH2]

True $$$ is good but I think a winning PL scedule will have more impact.

[Lafalum]

Patriot League football is a patient in a hospital bed. The doctors (e.g., the presidents) couldn't guarantee the patient would make it through surgery, so the Rx was to take two aspirin and call them in 2012. In the end, that won't change the prognosis.

And the prognosis is??? There is no indication that the PL presidents think this is all that important to them, their employers or for the league in general. If they did there would have been a decision before they even walked in the room. I think we are talking about the survival of the league for all sports not just football. If one all sports member decides to pack it in, the league is gone. That is the true danger here. When that becomes the stakes the presidents will move. We had two new presidents in the room and next year there will be a new president at Holy Cross. For presidential terms Weis is getting long in the tooth. The dynamic in two years could be radically different.
The really dangerous question for the league is the status of the service academies. If they begin to feel the league is not viable the league is done.

[TheValleyRaider]

Some thoughts, not completely related, about the whole thing

-The PL presidents want consensus on the issue (or at least the core schools do). Until they can get it (2012), they won't take a vote. Not voting is, arguably, better than voting "No", which likely puts off the scholarship possibility for at least a decade

-There is little fear of the core schools leaving the PL, especially the pro-scholarship ones. However strong the support is at Lehigh or Colgate, independence is a non-starter. The environment is not favorable to Independents with some notable FBS exceptions. Scheduling is much more difficult and you lose the ties to "like-minded institutions," which I think rates highly within the PL leadership

-The schools like being in the PL. Outside of Fordham, I think there's a great deal of leadership support for the AI, and the image it projects regarding the importance of academics to the member schools. This isn't to say Fordham doesn't care about academics, just that they are more prepared to say the AI isn't necessary than the others

-I doubt the service academies have the desire to go anywhere. I don't see why they wouldn't like the PL for all non-football sports, and unless they see another conference destination, breaking up the League doesn't seem likely

Nothing to back any of this up, mind you, just some baseless speculation on my part

[Go...gate]

What happened in December was very discouraging.

Let's face it, it was a decision, a decision to do nothing.

I don't speak for Colgate any more than any of you speak for your respective institutions. As a Colgate grad and a long-time supporter of Colgate athletics, however, I think it was a last-ditch move to try to salvage some consensus to keep the football conference together. Unfortunately, I am not optimistic that such a consensus will emerge.

[TheValleyRaider]

What happened in December was very discouraging.

Let's face it, it was a decision, a decision to do nothing.

I don't speak for Colgate any more than any of you speak for your respective institutions. As a Colgate grad and a long-time supporter of Colgate athletics, however, I think it was a last-ditch move to try to salvage some consensus to keep the football conference together. Unfortunately, I am not optimistic that such a consensus will emerge.

I don't care for the decision either, but at this point I think the strongest remaining urge amongst the schools is to remain together. I'm skeptical as you are that any kind of consensus will really emerge, but given how little I know I choose to remain hopeful for a pro-scholarship direction

At the very least, I don't see any credible threat for independence. I don't think it benefits us nearly as much as being in the Patriot League (or any conference) does

[DFW HOYA]

-The schools like being in the PL. Outside of Fordham, I think there's a great deal of leadership support for the AI, and the image it projects regarding the importance of academics to the member schools. This isn't to say Fordham doesn't care about academics, just that they are more prepared to say the AI isn't necessary than the others.

I've been following the PL for 10 years now and still see the AI as an accomodation to the good graces of the Ivy League. It's not like you've got pirate programs in the PL--each school can, does, and will admit talented students based on the needs of that institution. Yet, no one offers that same privilege to admitting athletes because it's an "image" thing.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've been following the PL for 10 years now and still see the AI as an accomodation to the good graces of the Ivy League. It's not like you've got pirate programs in the PL--each school can, does, and will admit talented students based on the needs of that institution. Yet, no one offers that same privilege to admitting athletes because it's an "image" thing.

The AI must be popular given the number of schools in line to adopt it...

I see your point to some degree, but it's kind of a false argument. The AI is something that's enforced at the league level, not on a per-school basis. Of course Richmond won't be lining up to adhere to an AI if their league doesn't insist on it.

At a conference level, there are multiple reasons why other conferences have not adopted it.

Since Towson left the PL for the CAA, no public school has adopted the AI - mostly because the system as it exists works on the assumption that all candidates are evaluated based on merit.

By definition, this is at odds with state school mandates to accept a large percentage of their in-state kids.

No real effort has been made to try to extend this model to public schools. Why? Because the two leagues that have adopted it - the PL and Ivy League - are all (now) private schools. Every other league in FCS is either all public or a public/private mix.

The mostly-private Pioneer League, the only other league that really has an option on whether to adopt it or not, already is need-based aid only. For whatever reason, they haven't adopted the AI - perhaps because it would put them at more of a competitive disadvantage (or they believe adopting it would not give them significantly more Ivy games anyway).

I'm a big believer in the idea that if the PL is truly interested in 1) making the league survive and 2) making the AI a reality in the rest of collegiate athletics, it needs to be able to be applicable to public schools as well as private. There is no reason why URI, UNH and Maine should not be able to - at a bare minimum - consider PL membership. But right now with no plan for the AI going forward, the AI is a deal breaker for them even thinking about joining.

Of course, the presidents can't even decide whether to keep Fordham or not.

[ngineer]

I see your point to some degree, but it's kind of a false argument. The AI is something that's enforced at the league level, not on a per-school basis. Of course Richmond won't be lining up to adhere to an AI if their league doesn't insist on it.

At a conference level, there are multiple reasons why other conferences have not adopted it.

Since Towson left the PL for the CAA, no public school has adopted the AI - mostly because the system as it exists works on the assumption that all candidates are evaluated based on merit.

By definition, this is at odds with state school mandates to accept a large percentage of their in-state kids.

No real effort has been made to try to extend this model to public schools. Why? Because the two leagues that have adopted it - the PL and Ivy League - are all (now) private schools. Every other league in FCS is either all public or a public/private mix.

The mostly-private Pioneer League, the only other league that really has an option on whether to adopt it or not, already is need-based aid only. For whatever reason, they haven't adopted the AI - perhaps because it would put them at more of a competitive disadvantage (or they believe adopting it would not give them significantly more Ivy games anyway).

I'm a big believer in the idea that if the PL is truly interested in 1) making the league survive and 2) making the AI a reality in the rest of collegiate athletics, it needs to be able to be applicable to public schools as well as private. There is no reason why URI, UNH and Maine should not be able to - at a bare minimum - consider PL membership. But right now with no plan for the AI going forward, the AI is a deal breaker for them even thinking about joining.

Of course, the presidents can't even decide whether to keep Fordham or not.


Heck, they can't even decide which hand to wipe with...

[DFW HOYA]

Ivy message board talk about its AI.

http://www.voy.com/152805/85514.html

[carney2]

...the presidents can't even decide whether to keep Fordham or not.

You are just fixated on this aren't you, LFN? The whole meeting in December revolved around whether Fordham stays or goes; whether they are welcome or unwelcome. I guess it's time to fess up. I was at the meeting and, of course, sworn to secrecy. Since this really has nothing to do with "the decision" I guess I can divulge.

I was witness to a conversation between Fordham's President Joseph McShane and his Lehigh counterpart, Alice Gast. I didn't have a tape recorder, but it went something like this:

AG: "Well, Fr. McShane, I guess we're going to get to that football stuff this afternoon."

Fr.M: "Call me Joe, and yes, that seems to be on the agenda."

AG: "Tell me...uh...Joe, just between you, me and that water glass, where exactly does Fordham stand on this? Will you be handing down some sort of a take it or leave it ultimatum?"

Fr.M: "Really, Dr. Gast, there isn't much to tell. Our position is pretty clear. We've broken with the League and gone full scholarship in football. If we had someplace else to be, I think we'd be there. Our history with the Patriot League shows that is the way we operate. Take our basketball situation back in the early 90s. We wanted scholarships. We had another league that would accept us and we just left the Patriot League. For better or for worse, that is not the case with our football program at the moment."

AG: "But down the road things might change. Would Fordham make a unilateral decision without consulting with the Patriot League?"

Fr.M: "I think that when and if that time comes you can count on me and my administration to be solid citizens and square shooters. Someone at Fordham would pick up the phone and advise one and all that things are moving and if the Patriot League has plans, now is the time."

AG: "That's good to hear, Joe, because I am hearing from the core members of the League that there is no consensus either for or against football scholarships at the moment. None of the school administrations seem ready to make this a key issue. I can't say for certain how this will go, but I am getting a sense that most prefer the status quo."

Fr.M: "That, of course, is not what we would like to hear. I think, however, that you can advise your peers that we can live with the current situation for a while longer."

That, LFN, is pretty much the way it went down. Would I lie to you?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Adding to the overall tone was the fact that both Gast and McShane were dressed in their academic regalia and held the entire conversation in Latinum vulgare.

[DFW HOYA]

Adding to the overall tone was the fact that both Gast and McShane were dressed in their academic regalia and held the entire conversation in Latinum vulgare.

"So, anyone going to the happy hour over at the Manor House?"

http://www.pitt.edu/~bookctr/regalia/regalia.jpg

[TheValleyRaider]

I've been following the PL for 10 years now and still see the AI as an accomodation to the good graces of the Ivy League. It's not like you've got pirate programs in the PL--each school can, does, and will admit talented students based on the needs of that institution. Yet, no one offers that same privilege to admitting athletes because it's an "image" thing.

I think we actually agree on this. The "image" comes from what the PL presidents believe they are projecting, even if their only audience is the Ivies, or the image exists only in their own minds xtwocentsx

[BucBisonAtLarge]

If the PL schools can get to, with an 70+ roster, get to 50 or more equivalents, why must they declare for scholarships? It seems as though the vigor with which recruiting went on this fall that some message did go out and while it was not the message we heard or wanted to hear, are they testing the boundaries of their current status? Recruiting at Bucknell, Lafayette and Georgetown was aggressive. Maybe it was a coincidence, but those are three of the four schools most often cited as poorly-positioned for a move to scholarships.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You are just fixated on this aren't you, LFN? The whole meeting in December revolved around whether Fordham stays or goes; whether they are welcome or unwelcome.

Your scenario relies on the preconceived notion that the PL presidents are so dim that they would come up with a "solution" that does nothing to solve the problem and willfully ignores the whole reason they had the meeting in the first place. All the while while patting themselves on the back for coming up to a non-decision that will help with the "stability" of the league.

Yeah, that could have been what happened.

That means, however, that the PL presidents themselves didn't realize that the meeting was about - because that was what it was about.

By definition the status quo means Fordham is unwelcome. This is not a matter of debate. Unless Fordham gives up scholarships, they're in violation of league policy. Under what alternate universe does Fordham willingly go back to need-based aid?

Let's say your scenario is true. The PL presidents agreed to limp on with the status quo until Fordham has a CAA invitation in hand.

So they do so. Then... what happens?

We know the answer isn't Option 1, "The presidents get together and enact scholarships." We all know they don't operate at that "blazing speed" - and besides, the status quo seems lovable to at least some of the presidents, since they didn't enact them in December.

Option 2 is: they give a gift basket for Fr. McShane, wishing him well in the CAA. And then they look at... who, exactly... to replace them?

Option 3? Is there one?

I'm not sure I totally subscribe to your deeply cynical view that they didn't know, or didn't care, if Fordham stays or goes. But going back to my op-ed, that is the point I tried to make very clear. It was a decision on Fordham. And I guess at some level I don't think the presidents have thought of their meeting in those terms.

What I'm trying to say is: I agree with your conversation is that's what could have happened. However, that doesn't change the fact that the scholarship meeting was about Fordham, because it was.

[Seawolf97]

I think we actually agree on this. The "image" comes from what the PL presidents believe they are projecting, even if their only audience is the Ivies, or the image exists only in their own minds xtwocentsx

I suspect a little of both and I dont think the Ivies are looking very hard.

[TheValleyRaider]

I suspect a little of both and I dont think the Ivies are looking very hard.

I think the Ivies notice insofar as they can use it to maintain the PL as an "appropriate" source of OOC games

The AI allows the PL presidents to continually justify their classification as an "above-it-all" academic league

I'm fairly ambivalent on the AI itself. If maintaining it is the price of adding scholarships, then I don't see why we shouldn't keep it. If people wanted to get rid of it, I'm sure the member schools could and would maintain their standards anyway

[Bogus Megapardus]

If anyone watched the Jim Mower post-game interview following Lafayette College's defeat of American University this evening in the PL basketball tournament semifinals, it's clear why the AI is a very good thing.

Long live the Patriot League, and go Pards!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If anyone watched the Jim Mower post-game interview following Lafayette College's defeat of American University this evening in the PL basketball tournament semifinals, it's clear why the AI is a very good thing.

Long live the Patriot League, and go Pards!

What a game - and congrats.

[DFW HOYA]

If anyone watched the Jim Mower post-game interview following Lafayette College's defeat of American University this evening in the PL basketball tournament semifinals, it's clear why the AI is a very good thing.


If Jim Mower was at Duke or Dayton or Portland State, it'd be a good interview too, with or without an AI.

[RichH2]

The AI has continued to be a nagging issue for very minor complaints. All it does is set a league wide floor. Is it really necessary? Probably not . Is it a sop to the Ivies? Probably. So what. With or without an AI the schools in the PL admit qualified kids. The essential issue is whether the PL wants to be nationally competitive or merely an adjunct to the IL?

[Doc QB]

I'm fairly ambivalent on the AI itself. If maintaining it is the price of adding scholarships, then I don't see why we shouldn't keep it. If people wanted to get rid of it, I'm sure the member schools could and would maintain their standards anyway

Pre-Patriot league, there was no league for a league wide AI...and the current member schools admitted academically qualified student-athletes back then, as they do now.

It is the character and class and integrity of the schools that would keep adherence to a principle that qualified athletes are admitted....then, now, and always (stealing that cheesy ACC commercial slogan).