Fighting Sioux nickname may be saved for good!!

[darell1976]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/194295/


On a 65-28 vote, the House approved House Bill 1263, which states University of North Dakota athletic teams shall be known as the Fighting Sioux. Neither UND nor the state Board of Higher Education may take action to discontinue the use of the nickname or logo.

It requires the attorney general to consider filing a federal antitrust claim against the NCAA if the association takes any action to penalize UND for using the nickname and logo.

The bill will now move on to the Senate for further discussion.

The SBOHE has told UND to retire the nickname by August 15th.

Here is my question to the AGS world how does anti-trust laws work in reguards to this case? And does UND have a chance to prevail since a state law would require UND to be known as the Fighting Sioux.

[No_Skill]

I understand the concept of going down swinging, but this is getting embarrassing for everyone involved. xnonono2x

[jacksfan29]

I understand the concept of going down swinging, but this is getting embarrassing for everyone involved. xnonono2x

I could care less about the name but you don't pick a fight with the NCAA while in transition to D1. How long before the Big Sky begins to wonder if having UND as a member is worth it? Oh right, Fullerton's in charge over there. OK, how long before some of the Big Sky schools begin to wonder if it is worth it?

[Thundar]

Thank god this is the Big Sky's problem nowxsmileyclapxxsmileyclapx

[biggame]

It's not the University that's actually fighting the name change at this point, it's the state.

I absolutely hate the NCAA and the double standards they deal in, but I don't see this actually changing anything for UND.

[jacksfan29]

It's not the University that's actually fighting the name change at this point, it's the state.

I absolutely hate the NCAA and the double standards they deal in, but I don't see this actually changing anything for UND.

The NCAA does have double standards, no doubt about it. I'm just not sure UND are in a position of strength as it relates to this issue. And yes it may be the legislature, but the NCAA are like the mob. They don't care who they punish, they just want to punish someone and right now UND is in their sights. Get out the popcorn this ones going to get interesting.

[cmaxwellgsu]

Best of luck to UND on this battle. Political correctness is way out of hand in this country when you are calling college nicknames and trophies hostile. Way out of hand.

[poly51]

Best of luck to UND on this battle. Political correctness is way out of hand in this country when you are calling college nicknames and trophies hostile. Way out of hand.

I am with the ND House on this one. The NCAA needs to be taken down a notch.

[DJKyR0]

If by "may be saved for good" you mean "thrust through another bramble of legislative proceedings serving only to prolong the funds and manpower churned into the whole ordeal" then yeah, you're right. It would still need to go through the state senate, get signed off on by the governor and looked over by the attorney general who came out on the floor saying the whole bit was unconstitutional. Even if the whole thing passes the AG isn't actually obligated to take any action against the NCAA - he is required only to "consider" it (as worded by the bill itself).

At this point it's nothing but a fiasco. Nearly the entire body of UND, both administration and student, said to retire it. As a tax-paying resident of ND, it's frustrating to see this thing get dragged out yet again. In the meantime, the only people this is hurting is the UND student-athletes. This makes everyone involved look backwards and stupid.

[NDB]

UND has no chance to prevail in this. Even if they had legal standing, the NCAA can crush them due to sheer disparity in size and power.

What is going to happen is another UND-related clusterf#ck.

It's going to take years for the state to determine how to proceed with this as the attorney general, supreme court, governor, legislature, State Board of Higher Ed, will all need to get on the same page.

In the mean time, UND will be in violation of its terms with the NCAA. Will this stop the NCAA from finalizing UND's transition to DI? I doubt it, but it could happen.

At the least they will be on the NCAA's and every PC schools crap list. Many will not play them. If the Big Ten starts hockey, UND will get to play Bemidji State four times and the Gophers and Badgers zero times.

UND won't have any teams making the playoffs in sports other than hockey so the inability to host is moot. However, I imagine that hockey teams will have to turn their jerseys inside out at the least.

Tom Douple is looking like a freaking genius right now.

[darell1976]

Whats ironic is that this whole idea was brought up by NDSU supporter Rep. Al Carlson of Fargo. Does he really care for the Sioux name? Or is he trying to sabbotage UND's chances with the NCAA to complete a successful transition. The senate will have a vote by mid April at the latest.

[aceinthehole]

I don't have any real interest in this, but how can anyone think the NCAA has the ability to enforce this if the State (and not the university) of North Dakota really gets involved.

If they fight the demands of the NCAA in the Courts or Congress, don't you think someone is going to ask why certain schools in FBS can keep tribal nicknames, but others in FCS can't?

Legally and morally, what is the difference between the following?

Florida State Seminoles
Illinois Fightng Illini
Central Michigan Chippewas

or

North Dakota Sioux

The NCAA needs to worry about its valuable tax-exempt status, and if they try and fight too hard on this state-rights issues it kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A serious question here. I am no legal expert on such matters, at all. But since it's state legislation on the matter of school nicknames... wouldn't this be a mortal lock to end up in state court... and maybe... end up in the Supreme Court?

Don't laugh me off the board. This is a decision that impacts education (attendees of UND), and interstate commerce (NCAA's ban would limit interstate commerce, since UND would probably be blacklisted from hosting games in hockey, perhaps blacklisted from playing FBS games...). Again, I'm no legal expert. But it looks like, by passing this, the legislature is begging this issue to be elevated to at a bare minimum the state Supreme court, thus causing a protracted battle with the NCAA in courtrooms.

[Big Al]

Maybe so, but I think many people are missing several salient points:

1. The NCAA is a member-based institution. As such, UND does have a vote. In addition, member schools from around the country propose legislation, review it in member committees and put it up to the vote for the general membership. This isn't the same as some nameless, faceless official simply making an edict that everyone must follow. This was a rule promoted and passed by their fellow members.

2. The schools that have retained their Native American nicknames received explicit permission from the local tribes -- in some cases, multiple tribes. That's why the "Redmen" and "Indian" nicknames have gone by the wayside but the "Utes", "Seminoles" and "Chippewas" have not.

3. UND hasn't been denied participation in anything. Rather, they don't like the terms.

Personally, without even addressing the "rightness" or "wrongness" of the Fighting Sioux nickname, I have a hard time seeing where a federal case can be made, much less won by UND.

[darell1976]

A serious question here. I am no legal expert on such matters, at all. But since it's state legislation on the matter of school nicknames... wouldn't this be a mortal lock to end up in state court... and maybe... end up in the Supreme Court?

Don't laugh me off the board. This is a decision that impacts education (attendees of UND), and interstate commerce (NCAA's ban would limit interstate commerce, since UND would probably be blacklisted from hosting games in hockey, perhaps blacklisted from playing FBS games...). Again, I'm no legal expert. But it looks like, by passing this, the legislature is begging this issue to be elevated to at a bare minimum the state Supreme court, thus causing a protracted battle with the NCAA in courtrooms.

What will happen is UND will go back on the sanctions list. They cannot host any playoff games, wear anything that says Fighting Sioux and the Indian logo during road playoff games, and teams like U of Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa will not play UND in any sport outside their conferences (so UND can still play Minny and UW in hockey). This could get ugly if it passes the senate which it most likely will and then signed into law by Gov. Dalrymple. Then AG Wayne Stenjum will file a lawsuit against the NCAA if and when we do go back on the sanctions list again for violating antitrust laws. I and most people wished this happened before the NCAA deadline of Nov 30, 2010 but UND said they will follow the board and retire the name on August 15th, unless told otherwise. And I was all ready to accept a new name and logo, this I guess will make for an interesting spring.

[darell1976]

Maybe so, but I think many people are missing several salient points:

1. The NCAA is a member-based institution. As such, UND does have a vote. In addition, member schools from around the country propose legislation, review it in member committees and put it up to the vote for the general membership. This isn't the same as some nameless, faceless official simply making an edict that everyone must follow. This was a rule promoted and passed by their fellow members.

2. The schools that have retained their Native American nicknames received explicit permission from the local tribes -- in some cases, multiple tribes. That's why the "Redmen" and "Indian" nicknames have gone by the wayside but the "Utes", "Seminoles" and "Chippewas" have not.

3. UND hasn't been denied participation in anything. Rather, they don't like the terms.

Personally, without even addressing the "rightness" or "wrongness" of the Fighting Sioux nickname, I have a hard time seeing where a federal case can be made, much less won by UND.

Some people think this will violate the ND consitution which gives the SBoHE the right to tell the colleges what to do including what to do about their nicknames.

[Redhawk2010]

2. The schools that have retained their Native American nicknames received explicit permission from the local tribes -- in some cases, multiple tribes. That's why the "Redmen" and "Indian" nicknames have gone by the wayside but the "Utes", "Seminoles" and "Chippewas" have not.



I don't know about the Utes or the Chippewas, but the Fighting Illini still have the name, but they cannot use the logos and they had to retire The Chief. There is no such thing as an "Illini" tribe for them to "get permission from." And if you're the Seminole tribe, you're stupid not to take the money that Florida State gave them to keep the name.

[NDB]

What will happen.

March - ND Senate will pass bill/Governor will sign into law. SBoHE requests AG opinion on legality of matter.

April - AG states that the legislature and governor have no constitutional authority to make such decision.

June - Governor orders AG to sue SBoHE in North Dakota Supreme Court.

July - Supreme Court takes up case.

August - NDSC issues injunction stopping UND from ending nickname.

November - NCAA bars UND from participating in playoffs. PC schools add UND to do-not-play list. Doug Fullerton is fired.

January 2012 - NDSC decides that the the legislature and governor have the authority to require the name to stay in place.

February 2012 - SBOHE informs NCAA that the name will stay.

March 2012 - Big Ten Hockey League is announced. Will start play in 2013.

June 2012 - NCAA rejects UND's transition to Division I. Big Sky does not allow non-DI UND into conference.

2013 UND is again denied DI. UND stays in Minnesota/Wisconsin-less WCHA. Does not play any major non-conference teams in hockey. Does not play BCS team in football. Interest wanes. Athletic department losses $3 million.

2017 UND still in transitional purgatory. No athletic interest except for hockey who has not play a major hockey program in five years. Athletic department losses $7 million.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Chilling. You forgot one thing, though: when is the SCOTUS going to review the case? Because it could get that far.

[darell1976]

What will happen.

March - ND Senate will pass bill/Governor will sign into law. SBoHE requests AG opinion on legality of matter.

April - AG states that the legislature and governor have no constitutional authority to make such decision.

June - Governor orders AG to sue SBoHE in North Dakota Supreme Court.

July - Supreme Court takes up case.

August - NDSC issues injunction stopping UND from ending nickname.

November - NCAA bars UND from participating in playoffs. PC schools add UND to do-not-play list. Doug Fullerton is fired.

January 2012 - NDSC decides that the the legislature and governor have the authority to require the name to stay in place.

February 2012 - SBOHE informs NCAA that the name will stay.

March 2012 - Big Ten Hockey League is announced. Will start play in 2013.

June 2012 - NCAA rejects UND's transition to Division I. Big Sky does not allow non-DI UND into conference.

2013 UND is again denied DI. UND stays in Minnesota/Wisconsin-less WCHA. Does not play any major non-conference teams in hockey. Does not play BCS team in football. Interest wanes. Athletic department losses $3 million.

2017 UND still in transitional purgatory. No athletic interest except for hockey who has not play a major hockey program in five years. Athletic department losses $7 million.

Looks good!!! Only from March-July. All I have to say about the other months/Years is this:xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[FargoBison]

Chilling. You forgot one thing, though: when is the SCOTUS going to review the case? Because it could get that far.

Problem is that the State of ND and the NCAA already had an antitrust lawsuit and it was dismissed with prejudice.

[NDB]

Chilling. You forgot one thing, though: when is the SCOTUS going to review the case? Because it could get that far.

totally for got about that.

July 2012. State of North Dakota files suit against NCAA in U.S. District Court for barring interstate commerce......

[darell1976]

So much for NDB's timeline past well next month.

http://www.kfgo.com/fm-headline-news.php?ID=0000003234

The house has approved the bill that seeks to keep the name. While it allows the state to sue the NCAA, Stenejhem that's already been done and he's not so sure he can sue the association again.
The process of retiring the name and logo is already underway. A spokesman for Gov. Dalrymple says he hasn't decided whether he'd sign the bill if it passes the senate.

Next time someone from Fargo who is a Bison fan does something to help the Sioux.... RUN!!!!!!

[JBB]

UND is not a member of the NCAA Division 1 schools. They are in D2 transitioning to D1. To become a full member they have to complete the transition satisfactorily AND be voted in by a majority of the D1 members. If this passes UND may be out of D1 competition and on the sanctions lists.

The Government in North Dakota is out of control as the legislative branch continues to impeach the independent power of the State Board of Higher Education. Its also likely this law will be challenged in the State Supreme Court.

[darell1976]

UND is not a member of the NCAA Division 1 schools. They are in D2 transitioning to D1. To become a full member they have to complete the transition satisfactorily AND be voted in by a majority of the D1 members. If this passes UND may be out of D1 competition and on the sanctions lists.

The Government in North Dakota is out of control as the legislative branch continues to impeach the independent power of the State Board of Higher Education. Its also likely this law will be challenged in the State Supreme Court.

This will never happen since UND is in D1 hockey (NDSU fans hate when we bring that up.) Plus UND makes $$$$$$ remember that, the only thing the NCAA cares about. The only sanctions UND will be guilty of is about the playoffs and some PC schools which are only Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin will ban UND except for conference play, which in the case of Minnesota and Wisconsin won't hold water if the Big Ten Hockey Conference becomes a reality because of this $$$$$$. Sioux-Gophers, and Sioux-Badgers are big money makers. But lets see how this all plays out since it hasn't been approved by the state. I just wish that idiot from Fargo would have just kept to the real ND issues and let UND retire the name. Now fans are going to get their hopes up just to be crushed...AGAIN!!

PS: this is not a Division I, II, III, thing this is a UND vs NCAA thing, and UND is a member of the NCAA.

[Thundar]

This will never happen since UND is in D1 hockey (NDSU fans hate when we bring that up.) Plus UND makes $$$$$$ remember that, the only thing the NCAA cares about. The only sanctions UND will be guilty of is about the playoffs and some PC schools which are only Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin will ban UND except for conference play, which in the case of Minnesota and Wisconsin won't hold water if the Big Ten Hockey Conference becomes a reality because of this $$$$$$. Sioux-Gophers, and Sioux-Badgers are big money makers. But lets see how this all plays out since it hasn't been approved by the state. I just wish that idiot from Fargo would have just kept to the real ND issues and let UND retire the name. Now fans are going to get their hopes up just to be crushed...AGAIN!!

PS: this is not a Division I, II, III, thing this is a UND vs NCAA thing, and UND is a member of the NCAA.

But no matter how you spin it you are NOT a DI institution yet, using hockey is like saying Minnesota-Crookston and Michigan Tech are DI. UND has not been accepted as a DI university they are DI in Hockey because of a clause allowing DII and DIII schools to be part of it, otherwise there wouldn't be enough members to support the regional sport of hockey. The NCAA has the final say in approving your transition

[darell1976]

But no matter how you spin it you are NOT a DI institution yet, using hockey is like saying Minnesota-Crookston and Michigan Tech are DI. UND has not been accepted as a DI university they are DI in Hockey because of a clause allowing DII and DIII schools to be part of it, otherwise there wouldn't be enough members to support the regional sport of hockey. The NCAA has the final say in approving your transition

I know we are still transitioning I am saying this is not a matter of what division we are in. We were in D2 when we first sued, and they could have banned us but didn't so they won't ban us from D1 competition.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

If this ends up being a question about the independence of the SBoHE from legislative meddling as articulated in the state constitution and subsequent case law, I dont think there is any standing in the federal courts worth pursuit.

This seems like exactly the type of situation imagined when any such language asserting the independence of the SBoHE was included. One question here: who are the lawyers that will be absorbed in this novelty legal dance and who is paying them for another footnote in North Dakota case law. It would hopefully end in the North Dakota courts before the NCAA might have to act.

The governor's veto would seem to short circuit all of this, should the Senate not choose what might be a saner course. Someone is going to have play bad parent on this, or it could be exactly the wrong point in the D1 transition to (re)challenge the NCAA. No one would want this, but where were the politicians when one Sioux community did not sign off? And, from the outside, like the NCAA members, would be hard-pressed to accept the leguslative decision when the very Sioux people do not want the name to go on.

And someone will tell you there are too many schools in Division I anyhow. It sounds like UND has already paid a price for the name and the legislature seems hellbent on prolonging the pain. The NCAA's antitrust status has been tested legally, but go ahead, joust with a windmill. I am reallly sympathetic for the loss of the Fighting Sioux nickbame, but the worst case scenario risks tying the institution up for years longer.

[darell1976]

If this ends up being a question about the independence of the SBoHE from legislative meddling as articulated in the state constitution and subsequent case law, I dont think there is any standing in the federal courts worth pursuit.

This seems like exactly the type of situation imagined when any such language asserting the independence of the SBoHE was included. One question here: who are the lawyers that will be absorbed in this novelty legal dance and who is paying them for another footnote in North Dakota case law. It would hopefully end in the North Dakota courts before the NCAA might have to act.

The governor's veto would seem to short circuit all of this, should the Senate not choose what might be a saner course. Someone is going to have play bad parent on this, or it could be exactly the wrong point in the D1 transition to (re)challenge the NCAA. No one would want this, but where were the politicians when one Sioux community did not sign off? And, from the outside, like the NCAA members, would be hard-pressed to accept the leguslative decision when the very Sioux people do not want the name to go on.

And someone will tell you there are too many schools in Division I anyhow. It sounds like UND has already paid a price for the name and the legislature seems hellbent on prolonging the pain. The NCAA's antitrust status has been tested legally, but go ahead, joust with a windmill. I am reallly sympathetic for the loss of the Fighting Sioux nickbame, but the worst case scenario risks tying the institution up for years longer.

The lawyer will probably be Wayne Stenjeum our Attorney General he was the lawyer during the first lawsuit (2007), and IMO effed it up. It seemed he bartered years for tribal approval where schools needed 1 tribe well we needed 2 tribes thus the NCAA gave us 3 years to do it (Nov. 30, 2010 deadline). So UND got the 1 Sioux tribe closest to Grand Forks in fact 67% voted in favor of the nickname, but the other Sioux tribe was going to be a hard one to get and they (tribal council) knew their tribe would copy the Spirit Lake tribe and favor the nickname so refused a tribe vote and left it up to the tribal council. (Even though in 1969 they did a pipe ceremony granting lifetime permission of the nickname), but I guess it doesn't count. As people have pointed out you can't sue for the same thing twice, so this will be a hard one to fight, I just wish it was over.

[DJKyR0]

The lawyer will probably be Wayne Stenjeum our Attorney General he was the lawyer during the first lawsuit (2007), and IMO effed it up. It seemed he bartered years for tribal approval where schools needed 1 tribe well we needed 2 tribes thus the NCAA gave us 3 years to do it (Nov. 30, 2010 deadline). So UND got the 1 Sioux tribe closest to Grand Forks in fact 67% voted in favor of the nickname, but the other Sioux tribe was going to be a hard one to get and they (tribal council) knew their tribe would copy the Spirit Lake tribe and favor the nickname so refused a tribe vote and left it up to the tribal council. (Even though in 1969 they did a pipe ceremony granting lifetime permission of the nickname), but I guess it doesn't count. As people have pointed out you can't sue for the same thing twice, so this will be a hard one to fight, I just wish it was over.

The unfortunate thing is that a lot of UND fans (at least those not thinking in a total knee-jerk fashion) agree with you - nothing good is likely going to come of this and in the meantime the student-athletes will be the losers. That's going to demolish recruiting at a time that's critical for UND to bring in some quality recruits. I don't sympathize for UND much, but North Dakota legislators are being straight-up stupid with this whole bit. Let it go, already.

[darell1976]

The unfortunate thing is that a lot of UND fans (at least those not thinking in a total knee-jerk fashion) agree with you - nothing good is likely going to come of this and in the meantime the student-athletes will be the losers. That's going to demolish recruiting at a time that's critical for UND to bring in some quality recruits. I don't sympathize for UND much, but North Dakota legislators are being straight-up stupid with this whole bit. Let it go, already.

I just wish people would think of more than just hockey. They figure sure the WCHA playoffs are in St. Paul, and the regionals are not going to be held in college arenas so who cares about hosting playoffs...well I for one want to see playoff football at home. I saw UND beat UC Davis in 2001 on their way to a national title, I saw UND play NDSU (too bad NDSU killed the Sioux), and also playoff basketball I actually saw UND win a D2 national title in 1997 at home, so home playoffs are a good stepping stone towards a national title (I don't expect UND to make it far in March Madness) plus like you said it helps recruiting to know you will be playing in front of your fans in the playoffs. The ND legislature had 3 years (2007-2010) to meet the NCAA deadline they didn't...its over.

[Big Al]

I don't know about the Utes or the Chippewas, but the Fighting Illini still have the name, but they cannot use the logos and they had to retire The Chief. There is no such thing as an "Illini" tribe for them to "get permission from." And if you're the Seminole tribe, you're stupid not to take the money that Florida State gave them to keep the name.

You're right about the Illini -- it actually doesn't refer to any tribe, which explains why they could keep it. It refers to the citizens of Illinois -- Fighting Illini was a nickname earned by soldiers from the state who fought in WWI. Chief Illiniwek was a creation of the school. I can see where the name would be kosher but the Indian symbols wouldn't -- the symbolism is an artificial addition that bears to relationship to the name Illini.

The Utah Utes dropped any images of Native American people when they entered into a formal agreement with the Northern Ute tribe. The school symbol changed to a drum and feather with a block U in the middle and the school mascot was changed from an Indian warrior on horseback to a red-tailed hawk. FYI, these agreements were made in the early 1990s, as part of an ongoing dialogue Utah had with the Ute tribe, not when the NCAA mandated the removal of Indian symbols in 2005.

[darell1976]

You're right about the Illini -- it actually doesn't refer to any tribe, which explains why they could keep it. It refers to the citizens of Illinois -- Fighting Illini was a nickname earned by soldiers from the state who fought in WWI. Chief Illiniwek was a creation of the school. I can see where the name would be kosher but the Indian symbols wouldn't -- the symbolism is an artificial addition that bears to relationship to the name Illini.

The Utah Utes dropped any images of Native American people when they entered into a formal agreement with the Northern Ute tribe. The school symbol changed to a drum and feather with a block U in the middle and the school mascot was changed from an Indian warrior on horseback to a red-tailed hawk. FYI, these agreements were made in the early 1990s, as part of an ongoing dialogue Utah had with the Ute tribe, not when the NCAA mandated the removal of Indian symbols in 2005.

Thats also what some don't understand is that UND has no mascot we don't have a guy dressed up like an Indian on horseback or throwing a lighted spear in the 50 yard line like at Florida State or not on horseback like they did at Illinois. We have a nickname and logo (which was drawn up by a native american though not a Sioux but a Chippewa). UND had a mascot in the early 90's named Thunder (not Thundar like NDSU) The Bleacher Creature. He was a cross between a giant gorilla/Phillis Phanatic. Totally sponsored by private money not by the University, but of course the PC crowd didn't like it and he was removed after 1 season. Since then no mascot of any kind.

[JSUBison]

Thats also what some don't understand is that UND has no mascot we don't have a guy dressed up like an Indian on horseback or throwing a lighted spear in the 50 yard line like at Florida State or not on horseback like they did at Illinois. We have a nickname and logo (which was drawn up by a native american though not a Sioux but a Chippewa). UND had a mascot in the early 90's named Thunder (not Thundar like NDSU) The Bleacher Creature. He was a cross between a giant gorilla/Phillis Phanatic. Totally sponsored by private money not by the University, but of course the PC crowd didn't like it and he was removed after 1 season. Since then no mascot of any kind.

I don't think it was the PC crowd that killed the Bleacher Creature. I think it was just a bad idea, and the administration listened to the fans and alumni and got rid of it. Sioux fans and non Sioux fans I knew at the time equally despised the thing.

[darell1976]

Thats also what some don't understand is that UND has no mascot we don't have a guy dressed up like an Indian on horseback or throwing a lighted spear in the 50 yard line like at Florida State or not on horseback like they did at Illinois. We have a nickname and logo (which was drawn up by a native american though not a Sioux but a Chippewa). UND had a mascot in the early 90's named Thunder (not Thundar like NDSU) The Bleacher Creature. He was a cross between a giant gorilla/Phillis Phanatic. Totally sponsored by private money not by the University, but of course the PC crowd didn't like it and he was removed after 1 season. Since then no mascot of any kind.

I don't think it was the PC crowd that killed the Bleacher Creature. I think it was just a bad idea, and the administration listened to the fans and alumni and got rid of it. Sioux fans and non Sioux fans I knew at the time equally despised the thing.

I and a lot of people I know liked the mascot. It was fun for the kids. Its kinda like what does Slider have to do with the Cleveland Indians or TC Wolf have to do with the Minnesota Twins besides his initials. Thunder was something to get the crowd jacked up. The administration listened to the PC crowd and didn't want to inflame the nickname debate and stir up trouble, some thought a mascot should represent the name so should've UND gone with the Illinois or Florida State route?

[NoCoDanny]

This topic is like herpes, it goes away for a while, you start to forget about, feel good about things and then... BAM! You wake up one morning to a big old festering blister. xbawlingx

[darell1976]

This topic is like herpes, it goes away for a while, you start to forget about, feel good about things and then... BAM! You wake up one morning to a big old festering blister. xbawlingx

It would have gone away for good on August 15th with the retirement of the nickname but people not associated with UND (NDSU supporter Al Carlson of Fargo) likes to look like a hero and try to save the name and bring this up again.

[DJKyR0]

It would have gone away for good on August 15th with the retirement of the nickname but people not associated with UND (NDSU supporter Al Carlson of Fargo) likes to look like a hero and try to save the name and bring this up again.

Carlson sponsored a bill this morning to abolish the SBoHE. Not too hard to put together the whole plan after this. FWIW, we at Bisonville never claimed him as an NDSU supporter.

[darell1976]

Carlson sponsored a bill this morning to abolish the SBoHE. Not too hard to put together the whole plan after this. FWIW, we at Bisonville never claimed him as an NDSU supporter.

He is getting the hopes of a lot of Sioux fans who were ready to accept the retirement of the name, only to have that hope crushed unless the NCAA will accept the bill which they won't. I don't see this guy getting re-elected.

[JSUBison]

After viewing the asshattery in the ND legislature this year, I am in favor of abolishing democracy in the state of North Dakota, and installing a king. Preferably King Harald the V of Norway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_V_of_Norway

The current crop of state representatives could be jesters in his court. They have the experience.

[darell1976]

After viewing the asshattery in the ND legislature this year, I am in favor of abolishing democracy in the state of North Dakota, and installing a king. Preferably King Harald the V of Norway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_V_of_Norway

The current crop of state representatives could be jesters in his court. They have the experience.

They did such a good job they got a 3% pay raise.xlolx

[Twentysix]

After viewing the asshattery in the ND legislature this year, I am in favor of abolishing democracy in the state of North Dakota, and installing a king. Preferably King Harald the V of Norway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_V_of_Norway

The current crop of state representatives could be jesters in his court. They have the experience.

A king from a white European nation.

My god our population will never diversify with your thinking. lol...

[Twentysix]

Would solve a nickname problem though....

Football players=Gladiators or warriors.

Norweigan king......

Only one obvious explination.... UND vikings.

I dont think there were black vikings though.. I think they can only recruit instate or from norway.

[darell1976]

Would solve a nickname problem though....

Football players=Gladiators or warriors.

Norweigan king......

Only one obvious explination.... UND vikings.

I dont think there were black vikings though.. I think they can only recruit instate or from norway.

But then the Minnesota Vikings would be jealous since UND would have more wins.xlolx

[darell1976]

http://www.wdaz.com/event/article/id/6865/group/Sports/


The Commissioner of the Big Sky Conference says a bill requiring the University of North Dakota to keep its controversial nickname and logo is no reason to be alarmed


Other Big Sky member schools haven't given any negative feedback and as of now, there is no reason for the conference to lose their excitement about UND

Thats good news.

[Twentysix]

http://www.wdaz.com/event/article/id/6865/group/Sports/





Thats good news.

Atleast this insanity wont hurt you.

[darell1976]

Atleast this insanity wont hurt you.


At least Fullerton is a lot better at handling the Sioux nickname debate better than Douple and his Summit League.

[DJKyR0]

At least Fullerton is a lot better at handling the Sioux nickname debate better than Douple and his Summit League.

Douple wanted it figured out, and it still isn't figured out. Don't see how it was a bad idea to play it prudent when we can all see now how it's turning out.

[NDB]

I bet you a donut that Douple is happier withhow things are turning out than Fullerton is.

[JBB]

The Fargo Forum is reporting on the growing Big Sky concern over the UND nickname fight:


The league’s concern is growing.

“From our standpoint, it’s disappointing that this is coming up again,” said Big Sky Conference commissioner Doug Fullerton. “The league feels strongly that the bill could be damaging to (UND’s) athletic program.

UND’s membership in the Big Sky, however, currently is not affected by what’s happening in the Legislature, Fullerton said.


However, he added a prolonged battle over the nickname won’t help UND when it joins the league. And that also means that the Big Sky could suffer collateral damage because of the controversy.

If UND continues to use the nickname and logo, the school will not be allowed to host postseason competition when it becomes playoff eligible in 2012.

As I pointed out earlier:


The nickname controversy, Fullerton said, could possibly “set (UND) back in its transition.”

The BSC is standing by UND for the time being:


The commissioner said the league simply doesn’t want to become entangled in the controversy. Some of the league presidents, he said, also are monitoring the bill’s progress through the Legislature. “They would just as soon have it go away,”

There is a strong possibility they will get the boot from the Big Sky if the bill passes. The leagues goal is to gain national attention through post season success. The league may not tolerate the situation at UND if they are without a home field advantage in NCAA sponsored championship events.

The league is getting nervous because they dont want the black eye with the NCAA, the exact reason Douple said no to them.

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/311264/group/Sports/

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Why does the NCAA even have an opinion on the issue? If anyone should have a say on the issue it should be the legislature of North Dakota. The NCAA should focus on it's mission of protecting the student-athlete from exploitation and stop pushing the political agenda of Academic Elitists.

[JBB]

The only thing the NCAA has said is teams with unsanctioned native american nicknames like UND cant host NCAA championship events. They can still use the nickname, the NCAA doesnt care about that. They just wont let them sponsor NCAA championship events. That includes hockey.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

The only thing the NCAA has said is teams with unsanctioned native american nicknames like UND cant host NCAA championship events. They can still use the nickname, the NCAA doesnt care about that. They just wont let them sponsor NCAA championship events. That includes hockey.

If the Sioux Nation has a problem with it (the majority don't), they have a path to legal recourse. I still don't see why the NCAA inserts itself into the dynamic.

We have Trojans, Spartans, Vikings, and Aztecs - what's wrong with Sioux? We have Fighting Irish, Minutemen, Knights, Paladins, Crusaders - what's wrong with Braves and Warriors? There's nothing inherently racist or offensive about these mascots to a rational(which PC types aren't) person. This issue pushes buttons because it's yet another example of knee-jerk PC cow-towing to an activist minority.

[darell1976]

If the Sioux Nation has a problem with it (the majority don't), they have a path to legal recourse. I still don't see why the NCAA inserts itself into the dynamic.

We have Trojans, Spartans, Vikings, and Aztecs - what's wrong with Sioux? We have Fighting Irish, Minutemen, Knights, Paladins, Crusaders - what's wrong with Braves and Warriors? There's nothing inherently racist or offensive about these mascots to a rational(which PC types aren't) person. This issue pushes buttons because it's yet another example of knee-jerk PC cow-towing to an activist minority.

I just hope the consequences was thought out when they decided to go ahead with this bill. The chances of losing membership in the Big Sky, membership in D1 sports, no home playoff games at all, and banned from playing certain (PC) teams. On the other hand this is all speculation until the Govenor signs the bill. UND is going ahead to retire the name on August 15th, but UND's transition isn't supposed to end until July 1st of next year. Also things may have changed on the NCAA's end of it. Myles Brand (who started all this sh-t) is dead so maybe the new president of the NCAA may let this go; we just have not heard one just one quote from the NCAA on this whole thing.

[JBB]

UND is not involved in the bill and had nothing to do with Myles Brands death.

[bojeta]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/194295/



The SBOHE has told UND to retire the nickname by August 15th.

Here is my question to the AGS world how does anti-trust laws work in reguards to this case? And does UND have a chance to prevail since a state law would require UND to be known as the Fighting Sioux.

Yahoo!!!! Love hearing this!! Go Sioux!!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v455/bojeta/Graphics%20Projects/Conference-Cons-web.jpg

[darell1976]

UND is not involved in the bill and had nothing to do with Myles Brands death.

I didn't say UND had anything to do with Myles Brands death. I said maybe the new president isn't so PC and may cut UND either a break or a deal since they will end up sueing the NCAA after the NCAA bands them from hosting playoffs and or other sanctions. UND is involved with the bill not President Kelley or AD Faison but the nickname and the school it is linked too. UND is not the plaintiff in this bill but when the state takes the NCAA to court UND will be involved one way or another (especially if they abolish the SBoHE).

[bojeta]

If the Sioux Nation has a problem with it (the majority don't), they have a path to legal recourse. I still don't see why the NCAA inserts itself into the dynamic.

We have Trojans, Spartans, Vikings, and Aztecs - what's wrong with Sioux? We have Fighting Irish, Minutemen, Knights, Paladins, Crusaders - what's wrong with Braves and Warriors? There's nothing inherently racist or offensive about these mascots to a rational(which PC types aren't) person. This issue pushes buttons because it's yet another example of knee-jerk PC cow-towing to an activist minority.

I couldn't agree more!! Don't forget Highlanders!! My grandfather would be tickled pink to know a high school in California chose a Scottish character for their mascot!!

[JBB]

What I dont understand is why the NCAA is not allowed to govern their own affairs among its members in their own way? I guess the liberal mind wants it both ways?

[The Eagle's Cliff]

What I dont understand is why the NCAA is not allowed to govern their own affairs among its members in their own way? I guess the liberal mind wants it both ways?

I see where you're coming from, but I wouldn't agree that regulating a school's mascot/nickname falls under the intended jurisdiction of the NCAA.

[darell1976]

It just passed the ND senate and the Govenor said he will sign the bill.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/196451/


In addition to writing the Fighting Sioux nickname into state law, the bill directs Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem to consider suing the NCAA if the athletics association again threatens sanctions against the university.

[bojeta]

If by "may be saved for good" you mean "thrust through another bramble of legislative proceedings serving only to prolong the funds and manpower churned into the whole ordeal" then yeah, you're right. It would still need to go through the state senate, get signed off on by the governor and looked over by the attorney general who came out on the floor saying the whole bit was unconstitutional. Even if the whole thing passes the AG isn't actually obligated to take any action against the NCAA - he is required only to "consider" it (as worded by the bill itself).

At this point it's nothing but a fiasco. Nearly the entire body of UND, both administration and student, said to retire it. As a tax-paying resident of ND, it's frustrating to see this thing get dragged out yet again. In the meantime, the only people this is hurting is the UND student-athletes. This makes everyone involved look backwards and stupid.

Ya, the money spent on this hurts and it sucks anyone has to go through it, but the issue is not just the Fighting Sioux mascot, it's the battle against political correctness itself. I am strongly against discrimination and racism, however, I haven't lost my mind!!! This mascot is a tribute to the Sioux and should not be treated any differently than the Fighting Irish, the Cowboys, the Vikings, the Highlanders (personal favorite of mine at a high school nearby) etc... If you're going to be an activist, do it for something worthwhile!! Do so against something that actually harms or threatens the life, liberty and livelihood of people. UND's mascot needs to be upheld because doing so tells the country WE WILL BE SANE!!!
WE WILL BE FREE!!

[JBB]

Thats a ridiculous statement considering the NCAA was compelled to act because of political pressure from the Native Americans themselves.

[bojeta]

Thats a ridiculous statement considering the NCAA was compelled to act because of political pressure from the Native Americans themselves.

Source?

Which Native Americans? All or some? Were there not many Sioux in favor of keeping it? Compelled or predisposed?

If the NCAA felt "compelled", this only emphasizes the need to fight a ridiculous level of political correctness that has thrown common sense to the wind. Since its advent, this movement has alienated and polarized people in ways never imagined. Much of the extremism on both ends of the political spectrum today can be, in part, attributed to this social polarization.

[darell1976]

Source?

Which Native Americans? All or some? Were there not many Sioux in favor of keeping it? Compelled or predisposed?

If the NCAA felt "compelled", this only emphasizes the need to fight a ridiculous level of political correctness that has thrown common sense to the wind. Since its advent, this movement has alienated and polarized people in ways never imagined. Much of the extremism on both ends of the political spectrum today can be, in part, attributed to this social polarization.

Are you referring to the PC NCAA who resides in INDIANapolis, whose major sponsor is PONTIAC. Myles Brand started this mess and he has passed on, so who knows without sources what drove him to come up with this list and not have the balls to stick to it when Florida State threatened to sue the NCAA. To me either stick to all NA names or none at all. Not pick and choose what school is exempt and which one isn't.

[No_Skill]

Source?

Which Native Americans? All or some? Were there not many Sioux in favor of keeping it? Compelled or predisposed?

If the NCAA felt "compelled", this only emphasizes the need to fight a ridiculous level of political correctness that has thrown common sense to the wind. Since its advent, this movement has alienated and polarized people in ways never imagined. Much of the extremism on both ends of the political spectrum today can be, in part, attributed to this social polarization.

...the only ones who matter...the Tribal Counsil. You have to realize that the tribes are not a democracy. It does not matter what the average Sioux tribe member thinks.

[darell1976]

...the only ones who matter...the Tribal Counsil. You have to realize that the tribes are not a democracy. It does not matter what the average Sioux tribe member thinks.

Which makes UND's matter complicated since 1 tribal council voted for the name (after the whole tribe voted) and 1 tribal council voted against the name.

[No_Skill]

Which makes UND's matter complicated since 1 tribal council voted for the name (after the whole tribe voted) and 1 tribal council voted against the name.

Sometimes it only takes one party pooper to ruin a good time.

[darell1976]

Sometimes it only takes one party pooper to ruin a good time.

Things may have been different if UND got the same deal as the other schools and had 1 tribe closest to the school which in this case was the Spirit Lake Sioux Nation who is in favor of the nickname. But somehow during the lawsuit a possible deal was made trading years for an extra tribal approval so UND got an extra 3 years but needed the Standing Rock's approval which everyone knew was impossible without a whole tribe voting and their tribal council knew that.

[JBB]

I have no link, but the fight in North Dakota has been going on for about 40 years and it was initiated by the Native Americans, not some white liberal freak. It has been an issue at all levels of sports for decades and not because of some white liberal freaks, although there are a lot of white liberal freaks supporting it. Same with the NCAA.

Pro teams, college teams, city league teams, high school teams and amateur teams all across the country have been changing their names for years because of the racists element and social pressure.

The University of North Dakota has announced they will not comply with the new law because, under the state constitution, they dont answer to the State Legislature, they answer to the State Board of Higher Education which has directed them to drop the name and comply with the court ordered agreement between UND and the NCAA. They are also smart enough to release this new law is not the end of their troubles with the NCAA and its constituents, it is just the beginning.

My question is, of course, with so much time, decades actually, why wasnt UND able to settle with The Tribes? Is there something about the so called "honor" they dont approve of?

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I have no link, but the fight in North Dakota has been going on for about 40 years and it was initiated by the Native Americans, not some white liberal freak. It has been an issue at all levels of sports for decades and not because of some white liberal freaks, although there are a lot of white liberal freaks supporting it. Same with the NCAA.

Pro teams, college teams, city league teams, high school teams and amateur teams all across the country have been changing their names for years because of the racists element and social pressure.

The University of North Dakota has announced they will not comply with the new law because, under the state constitution, they dont answer to the State Legislature, they answer to the State Board of Higher Education which has directed them to drop the name and comply with the court ordered agreement between UND and the NCAA. They are also smart enough to release this new law is not the end of their troubles with the NCAA and its constituents, it is just the beginning.

My question is, of course, with so much time, decades actually, why wasnt UND able to settle with The Tribes? Is there something about the so called "honor" they dont approve of?

We have similar issues in the South with Confederate symbols. The most recognizable is the Battle Flag AKA St Andrew's Cross which flew atop the South Carolina state house and was on the Ga State Flag. Amusingly, Georgia's "new" flag replaces the Battle Flag with the First National Flag of the Confederacy, but no one has complained (yet) because they probably don't know what it is.

There are many things in speech, dress, and culture that offend me daily, but I believe the people who are offending me have a fundamental right to express their views openly and I will defend their right to offend me, because I want to have the same freedom to express my views.

While the foundations of our house are crumbling, academic eggheads are worrying about stains on the carpet in the hall closet.

[JBB]

This:

From http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php


DLsoiux
This is exactly what will happen. UND will go back on the sanctions list and every athletic team on campus will pay the price so the hockey team can call itself the Fighting Sioux. I wouldn't really put it past ND's idiot legislature to try and pursue another court case against the NCAA and get hit with punitive damages for re-litigating a settled issue. Think about that nickname supporters, we'll get to keep the nickname, the NCAA can keep us on their sanctions list, and at the end of the day we'll get to write them a big fat check.

I use to try and defend the school when Bison fans said that UND was a hockey only school, but it turns out they were dead right. 90% of this board could really give a !@#$ about anything else at the university other than the hockey team and the nickname and they're proud of it.

As a former athlete, I'm going to say it's a real shame that athletes who show up every day, bust their *** on the practice fields and in the classroom will now get to pay the price so that fat, asshole fans can call themselves the Fighting Sioux while patting themselves on the back for "sticking it to the man".

I'll still support the football team and the rest of the university, but it will be cold day in hell if a single dollar of mine ever goes to supports this asinine nickname fight or your beloved hockey team. As for this board, I'm done with it. It's obviously for Sioux nickname fans and I'm a fan of the entire university so this isn't the place for me. I may stop by and read from time to time if I feel like pounding my head against the wall, but for the most part I'll probably just ignore it.

Enjoy your victory while it lasts, it's only a matter of time before the NCAA goes after UND's golden goose. I, sincerely, hope they do so the rest of you actually have some skin in this game.


Eagles Cliff, I agree with you entirely.

I hope the folks are enjoying the fruits of the liberal mindset that, over the years and through the indignity of a thousand cuts, has cast a pall over this formally great country of ours.

You see results of their illogical and idealistic initiatives at the gas pump, in your tax bills, at the welfare line, in the empty store fronts, at the unemployment window, the boarded up factories and in Grand Forks and South Carolina.

[darell1976]

I have no link, but the fight in North Dakota has been going on for about 40 years and it was initiated by the Native Americans, not some white liberal freak. It has been an issue at all levels of sports for decades and not because of some white liberal freaks, although there are a lot of white liberal freaks supporting it. Same with the NCAA.

Pro teams, college teams, city league teams, high school teams and amateur teams all across the country have been changing their names for years because of the racists element and social pressure.

The University of North Dakota has announced they will not comply with the new law because, under the state constitution, they dont answer to the State Legislature, they answer to the State Board of Higher Education which has directed them to drop the name and comply with the court ordered agreement between UND and the NCAA. They are also smart enough to release this new law is not the end of their troubles with the NCAA and its constituents, it is just the beginning.

My question is, of course, with so much time, decades actually, why wasnt UND able to settle with The Tribes? Is there something about the so called "honor" they dont approve of?

You mean why not have the merchandise revenue go to to the tribes like at Florida State? Good question, but its not like UND shuts out Indians all together. They have more Indian programs than basically any other school in the country. And if UND is such a bad place why do most the NA's in the state go to UND? Why not NDSU? Why not Minot State? Maybe offering so many Indian programs is another way to honor the Indian tribes of this area. Its hard to say who started this whole PC thing against UND, but IMO just like JBB's opinion (because he didn't list any links) I don't think it was the NA's it was a white man who wanted press time. Think this if Fighting Sioux was really so horrible why is there a high school on the Standing Rock Indian Reservation with the same nickname? In 1969 Standing Rock tribal members went to UND and along with UND's president did a ceremonial pipe ceremony giving them their blessing and support for the name. Now 40 years ago brings us to 1971. What could UND do in 2 years to make things so bad...answer nothing.

As for what the NCAA is going to do to UND now. They could strike a deal with UND since they did get 1 tribal approval from the closest tribe to the school, it worked for Florida State, Central Michigan, and Utah. I guess we will wait and see.

[darell1976]

Finally a quote from the NCAA.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/196469/


The NCAA has said if UND keeps the name and logo, the school won't be able to host postseason tournaments. UND athletes also won't be able to wear the name and logo on jerseys during postseason events.

NCAA spokesman Erik Christianson says in a statement that the bill "is a state issue, and the NCAA policy remains unchanged."

Some supporters of the UND nickname bill said the legislation might persuade the NCAA to change its policy.

Wouldn't that be something, and might open up other states to do the same to bring back nicknames of schools that changed their names. But at least we are still part of the NCAA, and no where does it say more sanctions will be coming....on a side note Ohio State has 375 NCAA violations since 2000, and they are still in the NCAA.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I'll acknowledge to the moderators that this discussion is probably getting too political for the forum, but as the discussion relates to the NCAA and UND as well as other schools, the "politics" discussed are relevant to FCS Football and all collegiate athletics.

To me, the question here is about jurisdiction and whether the NCAA should even make policies along this line. Here are two links to the History of the NCAA http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/About+the+NCAA/Who+We+Are/About+the+NCAA+historyand Myles Brand's Legacy http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/About+the+NCAA/Who+We+Are/Myles+Brand+Legacy/

The NCAA was established to regulate and therefore save College Football as many were calling for it to be banned. In the late 1980's, the NCAA began pushing an obvious agenda inspired by the political left. Without getting into those other issues, suffice to say that the Indian-related mascot names offended the NCAA's sense of Political Correctness. Here is a good article about Political Correctness by Australian writer Phillip Atkinson:http://www.ourcivilisation.com/pc.htm

The NCAA should focus on the education of student-athletes and their safety. The NCAA should also try to keep money from corrupting Collegiate Athletics, but they have become an active participant in this realm and their only regret is they don't control FBS Football Money. Regulating Indian-related mascots has nothing to do with the NCAA charter and is clearly the personal political agenda of the University Presidents who passed the legislation. Fighting this issue successfully is important in preserving the autonomy of each institutional member. State Legislatures certainly have a say as they are the body responsible for writing the checks that fund their respective public institutions.

[JBB]

Very astute post Eagles Cliff. You are a clear thinking person.

Now, if only people can see beyond this one unpleasant outcome and see whats happened on so many issues. This once great country has been brought to its knees by this type of thing and it has hurt college sports, as this issue so eloquently highlights,

[slostang]

Very astute post Eagles Cliff. You are a clear thinking person.

Now, if only people can see beyond this one unpleasant outcome and see whats happened on so many issues. This once great country has been brought to its knees by this type of thing and it has hurt college sports, as this issue so eloquently highlights,

JBB, for someone that is always calling UND out as racist I am surprised to see the patch in your signature. The drawing of the Indian is the center of "A Century of Sucking" I am sure is offensive to our Native American friends.

Come on JBB, you are better than that.

[JBB]

Thats one of the bit raps man. You cant poke fun at UND without being guilty of this liberal PC nonsense?

If they want the nickname they have to take the PC heat. So do the natives. Maybe thats what is at the heart of the matter?

[slostang]

Thats one of the bit raps man. You cant poke fun at UND without being guilty of this liberal PC bull****?

If they want the nickname they have to take the PC heat. So do the natives. Maybe thats what is at the hart of the matter?

Leave out the racist drawing of the indian and I have no problem with the patch and poking fun at UND. You can not call them out for being insensitive to native americans by calling themselves the "Fighting Sioux" and then put that in your signature. Makes me think you are not as concerned for our native american friends and more interested in just busting UND's b@lls. I am just saying....

[darell1976]

Leave out the racist drawing of the indian and I have no problem with the patch and poking fun at UND. You can not call them out for being insensitive to native americans by calling themselves the "Fighting Sioux" and then put that in your signature. Makes me think you are not as concerned for our native american friends and more interested in just busting UND's b@lls. I am just saying....

I agree. That logo is very offensive and should be removed.xnonox

[citdog]

i still think they should just do a 180 and call their teams the "cavalry" or "smallpox infested blankets"

[mgbison]

This whole nickname deal is getting old really fast and its never going to go away. The new president and ad are about the only ones thinking clearly on this issue.

Just retire the damn nickname and move on. The only ones that are being hurt by this is the student athletes themselves. The NCAA isn't gonna change their stance on this issue and not having postseason home games isn't worth a mascot name.

Also, if und doesn't want to abide by the ncaa's rules they should just leave and play in the NAIA. Does the NAIA sponsor hockey?

I feel for the president and ad up in grand forks for having to deal with this crap.

[darell1976]

This whole nickname deal is getting old really fast and its never going to go away. The new president and ad are about the only ones thinking clearly on this issue.

Just retire the damn nickname and move on. The only ones that are being hurt by this is the student athletes themselves. The NCAA isn't gonna change their stance on this issue and not having postseason home games isn't worth a mascot name.

Also, if und doesn't want to abide by the ncaa's rules they should just leave and play in the NAIA. Does the NAIA sponsor hockey?

I feel for the president and ad up in grand forks for having to deal with this crap.

That argument was brought up by Senator Mac Schneider of Grand Forks during the debate on Friday. He of course voted no for the bill simply because he felt it would hurt the student athletes by not hosting a playoff game. He even said if NDSU played Eastern Washington in the Fargodome NDSU would NOT have lost (I agree). He is thinking more than just Sioux hockey. But to some that is the only sport on campus. I too wished they would have retired the name and moved on. It was on pace to be retired on August 15th, but now this new bill which the Govenor said he will sign takes effect August 1st. So now you have all this distraction on our last year of transition. Thank you Al Carlson of Fargo for bringing this mess up again.

[NDB]

How sure are you that this will be UND's last year of transition?

[darell1976]

How sure are you that this will be UND's last year of transition?

Before the bill 100% after the bill about 90%. Since the NCAA did say the only sanctions will be just the home playoff game unless they do punish UND some more.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I'd like to see it go to court and watch the NCAA lose yet again for overreaching its mandate.

[NDB]

Before the bill 100% after the bill about 90%. Since the NCAA did say the only sanctions will be just the home playoff game unless they do punish UND some more.

that is unless the NCAA considers the state's actions as impacting UND's institutional control of its athletic teams.

at the same time, it may cause the NCAA to realize that UND has not had institutional control since the creation of the REA Foundation.

[darell1976]

I'd like to see it go to court and watch the NCAA lose yet again for overreaching its mandate.

Its kinda odd that the Governor had his Lt. Gov (former U.S. Atty Drew Wrigley) look over the bill before he signed it.

I'm thinking he must of saw something that may be in the state's favor if and when this does go to court. It will go to court once UND is back on the sanctions list (as of now we are NOT), but it may stay out of court if a settlement is reached before hand.

[dakota fairways]

Why is it that the negative comments, almost all of them, are from NDSU posters, while other schools/conferences seem to support the Fighting Sioux nickname?

Sorry, I realize this is a rhetorical question.

[darell1976]

Why is it that the negative comments, almost all of them, are from NDSU posters, while other schools/conferences seem to support the Fighting Sioux nickname?

Sorry, I realize this is a rhetorical question.

I don't know...rivalry? Media jealousy? Or they are just sick of the issue.

D.... All the above.xlolx

[mgbison]

I could honestly care less what und's nickname is gonna be. It gets old reading the same old story every day in the forum. This issue is never going away. If you don't want to follow the ncaa's rules then leave the NCAA.

Like I said earlier, the only ones that are gonna be hurt by this are und student athletes when they can't have postseason home games.

Also, I think the hostile nickname issue stance the NCAA has taken is ridiculous, but it is what it is. Norte dame fighting irish, isn't that also hostile. I'm Irish and am offended.

[mgbison]

Media jealousy? Jealous of who? The gophers. They are the ones on fsn north all the time. I can watch every bison game online and connect it to my tv.

Ndsu's media director needs to get his sh$t together though, but that has been talked about enough on bisonville.

[DJKyR0]

Why is it that the negative comments, almost all of them, are from NDSU posters, while other schools/conferences seem to support the Fighting Sioux nickname?

Sorry, I realize this is a rhetorical question.

Because most of the NDSU posters are North Dakota residents who pay taxes to foot the bill for these civil servants to beat this freaking horse to death without a representative party in the nickname dispute. Imagine if you had to watch your tax dollars get flushed into an NDSU-related dispute that should have been solved thirty years ago.

Meanwhile the roads out west (in and around the cities supporting the brunt of the oil workforce, Williston, Dickinson, etc) are getting torn to shreds by the increased traffic and the best our state can do with a billion-dollar budget surplus is fret about UND hockey. What a state we live in.

[darell1976]

Media jealousy? Jealous of who? The gophers. They are the ones on fsn north all the time. I can watch every bison game online and connect it to my tv.

Ndsu's media director needs to get his sh$t together though, but that has been talked about enough on bisonville.

Easy now. My response was a joke (notice the laughing smiley).

As for the real reason why Bison fans are responding the way they are....DJKyR0 hit it right on the nose in his reply, especially this quote


Meanwhile the roads out west (in and around the cities supporting the brunt of the oil workforce, Williston, Dickinson, etc) are getting torn to shreds by the increased traffic and the best our state can do with a billion-dollar budget surplus is fret about UND hockey. What a state we live in.

As a Sioux fan I couldn't agree more. There are a lot more issues these lawmakers need to make like texting while driving, upping the traffic fines, finding a way to lower property taxes, things like that...NOT a nickname law. I just wish this thing was over. Because now people like me are going to hope this all works out only to see the hope get crushed...again and again.

[darell1976]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/198773/


State and UND officials will meet with the president of the NCAA on April 22 in Bismarck to determine whether the athletics association is open to revising its position regarding the Fighting Sioux nickname and Indian-head logo.

[TheBisonator]

I don't know...rivalry? Media jealousy? Or they are just sick of the issue.

D.... All the above.xlolx

FCS fans not from the Upper Midwest do not have any idea how entrenched the NDSU/UND squabble is. It's one of the few college sports rivalries that relates to social/cultural elements, an amount of class warfare and politics. It's almost like the Celtic/Rangers rivalry in Scotland with the religion aspect thrown out.

We haven't played each other in football for 8 years, but I think it has been a good thing. The rivalry started to get incredibly nasty and putrid when NDSU left Division II. We needed a decade or so to settle down and try to ignore each other a bit.

I think the main reason NDSU fans complain about this whole thing is because taxpayers money has been, and will continue to be used in this fight (UND fans will argue that it is not, but they are deluding themselves), which is really a losing cause. Cause anyone who thinks the NCAA will come out a loser in this thing needs to get back into reality. It's hard to imagine ND taxpayer money being used for an NDSU cause (live there for a while and you'll understand), so it makes Bison fans angry that all this political support in ND is being used for UND. When Bison fans in Fargo start questioning whether or not ND politicians would even spend taxpayer money to rebuild the city of Fargo if it was ever destroyed by a flood, it makes it all the more irritating to Bison fan when this kind of way more trivial issue is being kept alive politically.

[darell1976]

FCS fans not from the Upper Midwest do not have any idea how entrenched the NDSU/UND squabble is. It's one of the few college sports rivalries that relates to social/cultural elements, an amount of class warfare and politics. It's almost like the Celtic/Rangers rivalry in Scotland with the religion aspect thrown out.

We haven't played each other in football for 8 years, but I think it has been a good thing. The rivalry started to get incredibly nasty and putrid when NDSU left Division II. We needed a decade or so to settle down and try to ignore each other a bit.

I think the main reason NDSU fans complain about this whole thing is because taxpayers money has been, and will continue to be used in this fight (UND fans will argue that it is not, but they are deluding themselves), which is really a losing cause. Cause anyone who thinks the NCAA will come out a loser in this thing needs to get back into reality. It's hard to imagine ND taxpayer money being used for an NDSU cause (live there for a while and you'll understand), so it makes Bison fans angry that all this political support in ND is being used for UND. When Bison fans in Fargo start questioning whether or not ND politicians would even spend taxpayer money to rebuild the city of Fargo if it was ever destroyed by a flood, it makes it all the more irritating to Bison fan when this kind of way more trivial issue is being kept alive politically.

And yet this whole thing was restarted by a Fargo representative who is a Bison fan. Shouldn't it make you and other Bison fans more mad at him and not at Sioux fans? Sioux fans were at the point of retirement, we knew the deadline was coming and it passed then this guy who I (who lives in Fargo) never heard of starts up a bill to save the nickname after the NCAA deadline. So everyone in Bisonville are mad at Sioux fans when they should really be mad at the guy who sponsored the bill. Do you think he is going to be re-elected? Just for the record he is NOT in my district.

[TheBisonator]

And yet this whole thing was restarted by a Fargo representative who is a Bison fan. Shouldn't it make you and other Bison fans more mad at him and not at Sioux fans? Sioux fans were at the point of retirement, we knew the deadline was coming and it passed then this guy who I (who lives in Fargo) never heard of starts up a bill to save the nickname after the NCAA deadline. So everyone in Bisonville are mad at Sioux fans when they should really be mad at the guy who sponsored the bill. Do you think he is going to be re-elected? Just for the record he is NOT in my district.

Trust me, if you've been on Bisonville, you'd know that every member of that messageboard who lives between the 29/94 interchange and 25th Street (Al Carlson's district) is personally planning to run against the guy. I mean, the biggest NDSU-rented billboard in the state (across from Ruby Tuesday on 25th) is located on his turf, fer crying out loud. And that's the place where we advertise our football season tickets...

I've delivered pizzas in F-M (I don't deliver anymore, in case you were planning a snarky comment:D), and I know for a fact that that group of neighbourhoods is HEAVILY Bison fan territory. Lots of "I Will Be There" signs and NDSU flags mounted on front porches. Carlson will not be reelected next go around.

[darell1976]

Trust me, if you've been on Bisonville, you'd know that every member of that messageboard who lives between the 29/94 interchange and 25th Street (Al Carlson's district) is personally planning to run against the guy. I mean, the biggest NDSU-rented billboard in the state (across from Ruby Tuesday on 25th) is located on his turf, fer crying out loud. And that's the place where we advertise our football season tickets...

I've delivered pizzas in F-M (I don't deliver anymore, in case you were planning a snarky comment:D), and I know for a fact that that group of neighbourhoods is HEAVILY Bison fan territory. Lots of "I Will Be There" signs and NDSU flags mounted on front porches. Carlson will not be reelected next go around.

I do go on Bisonville, just to read not a registered user, and I am sure Al Carlson will have people with pitchforks coming after him. Re-election should be interesting for him. I would hate to have an Al Carlson sign in my yard.xlolx

[DJKyR0]

And yet this whole thing was restarted by a Fargo representative who is a Bison fan. Shouldn't it make you and other Bison fans more mad at him and not at Sioux fans? Sioux fans were at the point of retirement, we knew the deadline was coming and it passed then this guy who I (who lives in Fargo) never heard of starts up a bill to save the nickname after the NCAA deadline. So everyone in Bisonville are mad at Sioux fans when they should really be mad at the guy who sponsored the bill. Do you think he is going to be re-elected? Just for the record he is NOT in my district.

I know you read Bisonville so take a gander at the three or four threads denouncing Al Carlson and stating Fargo voters' refusal to vote for him again, myself included. Make no mistake, just because he claims to be a Bison fan doesn't make him "one of us." Actions speak louder than words, as they say. That said, not sure if he'll make it in again. Plenty of Sioux fans living in Fargo because Grand Forks is a fraction the size of the job market, and most of them are too embroiled in emotion to see the writing on the wall with this whole farcical situation. He's lost my vote, that's for sure.

[JSUBison]

I do go on Bisonville, just to read not a registered user, and I am sure Al Carlson will have people with pitchforks coming after him. Re-election should be interesting for him. I would hate to have an Al Carlson sign in my yard.xlolx

You should post there. You're probably the most active UND football supporter on the net.

[darell1976]

I know you read Bisonville so take a gander at the three or four threads denouncing Al Carlson and stating Fargo voters' refusal to vote for him again, myself included. Make no mistake, just because he claims to be a Bison fan doesn't make him "one of us." Actions speak louder than words, as they say. That said, not sure if he'll make it in again. Plenty of Sioux fans living in Fargo because Grand Forks is a fraction the size of the job market, and most of them are too embroiled in emotion to see the writing on the wall with this whole farcical situation. He's lost my vote, that's for sure.

I read your letter to Carlson on Bisonville...did he ever reply back. BTW it was a good letter. I do agree that if they make a bill for UND they should do it for NDSU.

[darell1976]

http://www.wdaz.com/event/article/id/7930/group/homepage/


The NCAA declined to attend because state officials wanted to host an open meeting according to Grant Shaft, a State Board of Higher Education member


Shaft said just shortly after University of North Dakota's President Robert Kelly informed the NCAA of the changes to the meeting, the NCAA decided to decline the invitation to the April 22 meeting in Bismarck.

I guess they don't want the public to hear every detail and make the NCAA look bad.

[darell1976]

Bye bye Siouxy. We knew ye well.

There is a link to the letter from the NCAA to UND about the cancellation http://legacy.grandforksherald.com/pdfs/Fighting%20Sioux%20Nickname%20Meet%20Cancelled.pdf

The last letter is the big one!!!

[mgbison]

I feel bad for und's president and ad. They are about the only 2 people in gf that have a clue about this whole issue.

Retire the nickname and move on. The NCAA stance on native American nicknames is dumb, but its their rule. Rules are rules. You can chose to follow the rules or not follow the rules.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I feel bad for und's president and ad. They are about the only 2 people in gf that have a clue about this whole issue.

Retire the nickname and move on. The NCAA stance on native American nicknames is dumb, but its their rule. Rules are rules. You can chose to follow the rules or not follow the rules.

This issue is a bit more complex than that. The NCAA was created by its members to regulate football to insure the safety of the student-players. Obviously, it's mission grew to cover other sports as well as academic integrity issues. The NCAA's stance on American Indian nicknames is an opinionated political stance which goes beyond the organization's authority. Schools must resist this Institutionalized Bullying.

[darell1976]

This issue is a bit more complex than that. The NCAA was created by its members to regulate football to insure the safety of the student-players. Obviously, it's mission grew to cover other sports as well as academic integrity issues. The NCAA's stance on American Indian nicknames is an opinionated political stance which goes beyond the organization's authority. Schools must resist this Institutionalized Bullying.

I agree. It was created by the late Myles Brand who should have gotten approval by every school in the NCAA to pass this stupid rule. Also you make a rule you stick with it. Notice how quick they added exceptions when Florida State threatened to sue the NCAA if their name was going to be changed. Its about $$$$$$ not really about being PC.

[Hammerhead]

The NCAA still says the mascot is not allowed. http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/316686/

[darell1976]

The NCAA still says the mascot is not allowed. http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/316686/

No surprise there. Sioux fans know the NCAA won't change their mind because of the state law...but will that change come August? We are still off the H&A list until August 15th thats when we go on the list and (pretty sure) thats when the lawsuit from the State of ND will be filed, then Chapter 200 will start in this soap opera.

[darell1976]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/200779/


Earl Strinden, a former leader of UND’s Alumni Association, backed the legislative action. He said Tuesday the NCAA’s latest statement “is not anything to be overly concerned about.”

Strinden, a former Republican majority leader in the state House, said he’s convinced the NCAA leaders still could be moved.

“I’m not surprised by this and I’m not concerned about it,” he said. “The fact that the meeting was going to be an open meeting caused them to cancel, but there will be, I’m confident, a meeting coming up when the Legislature is over.

“They were coming to North Dakota” until they learned the meeting would be open. “Why would they come to North Dakota if they weren’t willing to talk about it?”

The million dollar question!!

[GaSouthern]

I really hope the NCAA loses this one, the only time they should be looking to force a name change is when the group of people the school is named after is angry.

I'm surprised they have not gone after the aztecs

[DJKyR0]

I really hope the NCAA loses this one, the only time they should be looking to force a name change is when the group of people the school is named after is angry.

I'm surprised they have not gone after the aztecs

Might want to double-check your sources. One of the Sioux tribes in ND has been against the name and has sent numerous official requests for them to drop it over the past decade.

[darell1976]

Might want to double-check your sources. One of the Sioux tribes in ND has been against the name and has sent numerous official requests for them to drop it over the past decade.

That would be our buddies at the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe who know the whole tribe would vote in favor of the Sioux name thats why they will not grant a tribal referendum, and since they are a soverign nation there is nothing we (UND, or the state) can do about them.

[darell1976]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/201035/


Based on that data, which he believes was supported by results of the Spirit Lake Sioux referendum backing the nickname and the Legislature’s enshrining it in state law, Olson said that he and other committee members “felt the university had an adequate basis to retain the nickname and logo.”

They were shocked when the NCAA “erroneously accused us of being hostile and abusive,” he said.

“If I were counsel” for the state in this case, “I would argue the state law abrogates the previous agreement and suggest there is substantial support in the state — from all the citizens of North Dakota, including the action at Spirit Lake,” for keeping the name.

“The non-action at Standing Rock takes them off the table,” Olson said. “They could have had a vote and put the issue to rest completely. Because of the emotional attachment to this issue, pro and con, Standing Rock had an obligation to put it to a referendum.”
Olson said he agrees with Earl Strinden, former alumni head at UND and an active backer of the effort to preserve the nickname and logo, that the NCAA balked at participating in an open meeting.

“With all their problems, they can’t afford to say or do anything transparently,” Olson said. “They’re not about to be in the same room with (the media).”

[Mr. C]

Here is a CSN column on the issue:

http://www.collegesportingnews.com/content.php?466-NCAA-Misses-The-Whole-Aircraft-Carrier-on-North-Dakota-Nickname-Issue

This column has been updated to include Bernard Franklin's e-mail, canceling his and President Emmert's meeting last week with the North Dakota leaders. It really shows the cowardly way in which the NCAA often works.

[NDB]

What will happen.

March - ND Senate will pass bill/Governor will sign into law. SBoHE requests AG opinion on legality of matter.

April - AG states that the legislature and governor have no constitutional authority to make such decision.

June - Governor orders AG to sue SBoHE in North Dakota Supreme Court.

July - Supreme Court takes up case.

August - NDSC issues injunction stopping UND from ending nickname.

November - NCAA bars UND from participating in playoffs. PC schools add UND to do-not-play list. Doug Fullerton is fired.

January 2012 - NDSC decides that the the legislature and governor have the authority to require the name to stay in place.

February 2012 - SBOHE informs NCAA that the name will stay.

March 2012 - Big Ten Hockey League is announced. Will start play in 2013.

June 2012 - NCAA rejects UND's transition to Division I. Big Sky does not allow non-DI UND into conference.

2013 UND is again denied DI. UND stays in Minnesota/Wisconsin-less WCHA. Does not play any major non-conference teams in hockey. Does not play BCS team in football. Interest wanes. Athletic department losses $3 million.

2017 UND still in transitional purgatory. No athletic interest except for hockey who has not play a major hockey program in five years. Athletic department losses $7 million.

BUmp.

[bojeta]

I really hope the NCAA loses this one, the only time they should be looking to force a name change is when the group of people the school is named after is angry.

I'm surprised they have not gone after the aztecs

I'm a supporter of keeping the Fighting Sioux name. As for the Aztecs, the NCAA won't go near it because it has the overwhelming support of Californians of Aztec decent. They see the nickname the way most Sioux do; as a symbol of pride in their heritage. The difference is, the Aztec descendants don't have a small group with ulterior motives controlling the vote. They would be the first to rise up against the NCAA if they tried it.

[DJKyR0]

This thread is so deliciously ironic.

[darell1976]

BUmp.

That list is very far fetched. The November 2011 part is funny...UND is not allowed in playoffs. Well so much for that theory when both hockey teams played. The list went bad from June through 2017. The AG actually represented the SBoHE and sued the legislature. The Gov has been silent since the bill was repealed.