The Patriot League Composite Schedule, 2011

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/02/patriot-league-composite-schedule-2011.html


While every Patriot League schedule is unannounced so far by the league office and the member schools, I've been able to piece together the schedule at the CSN web site.

The picture it paints is nothing short of fascinating - and it might even offer an insight as to the visions the football schools of the Patriot League has for themselves.

I really do think it speaks volumes. It also seems to show seven different schools with seven different visions for Patriot League football.

[Bogus Megapardus]

That's really well done, LFN.

[nwFL Griz]

The bit about every schedule being unannounced so far is not true. Fordham has officially released their schedule, and Colgate and Lafayette both have tentative 2011 schedules posted.

[Seawolf97]

xthumbsupxKudos ! Well done as alwaysxhurrayx

[Go...gate]

Nice job, LFN.

[superman7515]

You mention Georgetown's schedule is all non-schollie, but Howard is a scholarship team.

[Franks Tanks]

Agree-- very good job.

As you mention Lafayette is doing exactly the opposite of ramping down a level. We have a potential top 5 team in NDSU, Big South contender Stony Brook, and Ivy League powers Penn, Harvard and Yale. It is perhaps the most difficult schedule for Lafayette since we played Army. I expect the Leopards to be better next year, but with that schedule I am not sure our win total will improve by a whole lot.

[CFBfan]

You mention Georgetown's schedule is all non-schollie, but Howard is a scholarship team.

isn't Wagner also scholarship??

[DFW HOYA]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/02/patriot-league-composite-schedule-2011.html
I really do think it speaks volumes. It also seems to show seven different schools with seven different visions for Patriot League football.

Scheduling vision...or sheer necessity?

This lineup really hurts Georgetown, both in terms of competition and perception. A school like Holy Cross doesn't have to travel more than 150 miles in any direction to fill up its schedule, while last season Georgetown's closest road N/C was in, where, New Haven?

As the only non-scholarship school left between Philadelphia and Charlotte, scheduling GU is anathema to CAA schools because it's a no-win situation for them, they cetainly don't want a return game in DC, and can please more of its alumni with a I-A body bag game than explainign why they had to pick up this team. While it's good that GU hasn't dipped into the D-III pool to fill its schedule (I'm sure the brickbats would fly if Johns Hopkins and Catholic appeared on future schedules), it's a sore spot that the "No Hoyas Need Apply" sign waved by more than a few Ivies leaves GU to cobble together a schedule every year and the results bear this out.

Putting Colgate aside, the remaining PL schools can easily build a non-confernece schedule within a three hour radius of its campus borders, that is, a bus league. Who's within 150 miles of Georgetown?

Penn? Had a two year series, not renewed by the Quakers. No meetings pending through at least 2018.
Villanova? No interest. Andy Talley will never schedule Georgetown.
Delaware? UDel has no interest.
Del State? DSU cancelled a deal with Georgetown some years ago before the game even took place.
Towson? TU has no interest.
Richmond? Cancelled a four year deal with GU after two games.
ODU? Cancelled a four year deal with GU after just one game.
W&M? Showed interest years ago, not since.
James Madison? JMU has no interest.

99% of Georgetown students and alumni have probably never seen a road football game. When it takes 250, 300, or 400 miles to get to a 12 noon game, how many games would you see, against schools you share almost nothing in common with?

Or is it time to give Hopkins a call?

[RichH2]

Great job, thanks. I wonder whether the schedules do indeed predict specific agenda by some schools or it is only an anomaly that may come and go if past history is any indicator. It is fascinating to see Lehigh and Pards filling OOC with more schollie teams and a bit less Ivy. Love Pards game out in N.Dak. Great move. Bison heavy Ivy? Is NEC our new go to conference for OOC games?
DFW has a good point on Hoya's sceduling difficulties. I think their schedule for this season is about where their skill level is now. Hopefully a confidence builder. Ah real football stuff to ponder.

[superman7515]

Putting Colgate aside, the remaining PL schools can easily build a non-confernece schedule within a three hour radius of its campus borders, that is, a bus league. Who's within 150 miles of Georgetown?

Penn? Had a two year series, not renewed by the Quakers. No meetings pending through at least 2018.
Villanova? No interest. Andy Talley will never schedule Georgetown.
Delaware? UDel has no interest.
Del State? DSU cancelled a deal with Georgetown some years ago before the game even took place.
Towson? TU has no interest.
Richmond? Cancelled a four year deal with GU after two games.
ODU? Cancelled a four year deal with GU after just one game.
W&M? Showed interest years ago, not since.
James Madison? JMU has no interest.

99% of Georgetown students and alumni have probably never seen a road football game. When it takes 250, 300, or 400 miles to get to a 12 noon game, how many games would you see, against schools you share almost nothing in common with?

Or is it time to give Hopkins a call?

What about within 200 miles.... Morgan St 41 miles, Hampton 178 miles, Liberty 179 miles, St Francis 185 miles, VMI 187 miles, Norfolk St 195 miles

[carney2]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/02/patriot-league-composite-schedule-2011.html



I really do think it speaks volumes. It also seems to show seven different schools with seven different visions for Patriot League football.

You daMan, LFN. Nice job.

As for me, I have no imagination. What, in your opinion, are the "seven different visions?"

[TheValleyRaider]

Interesting comparison, though I can't help but wonder how different would the analysis be considering the last few seasons, or just for individual seasons (ones where we played, say Furman and Coastal Carolina ;))

[Sader87]

Most HC alumni care more about the New England games than the Pennsylvania League games.

ETA: The schedules HC played in 1986 and Colgate played in 1987 (the 1st and 2nd years of the PL) were both superior i.e. more challenging than Fordham's will be next year...more evidence of the competitive slide of this league.

[DFW HOYA]

Unfortunately, the PL scheduling motto has become: "No gain, no pain."

[Go...gate]

Most HC alumni care more about the New England games than the Pennsylvania League games.

ETA: The schedules HC played in 1986 and Colgate played in 1987 (the 1st and 2nd years of the PL) were both superior i.e. more challenging than Fordham's will be next year...more evidence of the competitive slide of this league.

Colgate's schedules in 1988 - 93, 1997 and 1998 weren't bad either, nor were Lafayette's or Lehigh's.

[Sader87]

Colgate's schedules in 1988 - 93, 1997 and 1998 weren't bad either, nor were Lafayette's or Lehigh's.

Those are ok schedules...better than the current ones, but neither approach HC '86: a #18 BC (win over Georgia in a bowl), a solid 6-5 Army (with wins Tennessee and Air Force..HC defeated Army that year), a 9-3 William&Mary (who beat Virginia...also lost to HC that year), an 8-3 UMass etc. and Colgate '87 (Duke, Army, Syracuse etc.).

Fordham's schedule next year is ambitious, but it is hardly the most formidable PL schedule ever.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Colgate's schedules in 1988 - 93, 1997 and 1998 weren't bad either, nor were Lafayette's or Lehigh's.

Plus, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh all beat Holy Cross during those "glory years." What's old is new again.

[Sader87]

Plus, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh all beat Holy Cross during those "glory years." What's old is new again.

Touche...though you only did get us once when we still cared about football:

1986 HC 38 Lafayette 14
1987 HC 40 Lafayette 11
1988 Lafayette 28 HC 20
1989 HC 23 Lafayette 21
1990 HC 34 Lafayette 3
1991 HC 48 Lafayette 14

[Bogus Megapardus]

Touche...though you only did get us once when we still cared about football


Well, I *still* like the Patriot league and I like Holy Cross as a member. So there.

[Sader87]

Well, I *still* like the Patriot league and I like Holy Cross as a member. So there.

Of course you do...without Holy Cross there is no Patriot League...yes, we are that important (and delusional).

[Bogus Megapardus]

Of course you do...without Holy Cross there is no Patriot League...yes, we are that important (and delusional).

Fortuitously, Sader87, I happen to be in Worcester at the moment on a college visit. So yes, you *are* that important. And that *dreadful* trip from eastern PA to central MA still is nowhere near as long as you make it out to be. Actually, it is rather pleasant and inspiring.

BTW, Fitton Field looks blissful with a fresh dusting of snow. Hopefully, the *Pennsylvania League* will make it seem less so come fall.

[DFW HOYA]

Touche...though you only did get us once when we still cared about football:


I'm sure he wasn't there, but Sader's quote reminds me of a Holy Cross fan behind me in line in 1996 that stood atop Kehoe Field (the home field that made the MSF look like Princeton Stadium) and said to his friends:

"We used to play Army and BC, and now look where we are."

[Bogus Megapardus]

"We used to play Army and BC, and now look where we are."



And now we're stuck playing lowlifes like Harvard and Yale and Penn. An ugly, crying shame.

[Sader87]

I'm sure he wasn't there, but Sader's quote reminds me of a Holy Cross fan behind me in line in 1996 that stood atop Kehoe Field (the home field that made the MSF look like Princeton Stadium) and said to his friends:

"We used to play Army and BC, and now look where we are."

Twas not me but it sounds like what a lot of HC alumni have uttered at Fitton and beyond over the last couple of decades....I have no qualms with the PL (ok, I do have qualms with the PL) but it's the "dumbing down" of the OOC football schedule i.e. Sacred Heart, Marist, Howard et. al. that is particularly galling.

[Sader87]

And now we're stuck playing lowlifes like Harvard and Yale and Penn. An ugly, crying shame.

We played them as well as BC and Army once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away....

[Bogus Megapardus]

We played them as well as BC and Army once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away....

We're all going to be playing Syracuse and Rutgers and Army again soon enough, just like we used to, you'll see. As for BC, that's up to you . . .

[RichH2]

As frustating as this quest for merit aid has been, it sems to me that one of the short terms benefits has been an increase in need $$ at most of the PL. I would not be surprised that Pards & Lehigh join Gate and Rams in the 60 equivalency club. Bison have certainly upped their emphasis for Coach Susan. Hoyas, unless they hit a motherlode of rich parents with good football players, has had a banner year recruiting. Expect Tom will do OK at Cross but where they are going is a mystery to me.

2013 -14 we wil see some FBS teams on PL schedule with a scattering of them from now on , assuming aid levels remain constant. A consolation prize for all those who sought merit aid?xtwocentsx

[Sader87]

Unofficial, but it's being hinted that HC will be at UNH on 10/1 of this year with a return trip to Fitton next year.

Oh no....more New England schools on HC's schedule.

[Go...gate]

Plus, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh all beat Holy Cross during those "glory years." What's old is new again.

We didn't. Cross beat us every year between 1983 and 1996. xsmhx

[Go...gate]

We played them as well as BC and Army once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away....

Those were the days. No divisions, everybody just suited up and played. I remember Rutgers-Princeton used to be a bloodbath every year.

[Sader87]

Technically, prior to 1972 there were divisions..."university division" today's D1/FBS and "college division" today's FCS/D2/D3.

[Seawolf97]

Technically, prior to 1972 there were divisions..."university division" today's D1/FBS and "college division" today's FCS/D2/D3.

Exactly right.

[Go...gate]

Technically, prior to 1972 there were divisions..."university division" today's D1/FBS and "college division" today's FCS/D2/D3.

Right, but it was not unusual for schools to play outside the division....

[Franks Tanks]

Technically, prior to 1972 there were divisions..."university division" today's D1/FBS and "college division" today's FCS/D2/D3.

That is of course correct, but the divisions were much less defined than today. Lafayette was "college" in those days, but at least 1/2 of their games each year were vs "University" division teams.

[DFW HOYA]

That is of course correct, but the divisions were much less defined than today. Lafayette was "college" in those days, but at least 1/2 of their games each year were vs "University" division teams.

That certainly varied by school. Check this strange cast of characters that made up the Hoyas' schedule, circa 1971:

Catholic
Juniata
Manhattan
Johns Hopkins
Dickinson
Fordham
St. Louis
Susquehanna

Then again, Fordham's wasn't much better:

Widener
St Peter's
Ithaca
Seton Hall
Alfred
St. John's
Georgetown
Manhattan
Merchant Marine Academy

[Sader87]

Holy Cross and Colgate were really the only schools playing "quasi" big-time football before the PL came about....the Pennsylvanian schools were basically glorified D2 programs...HC and Colgate "dropped down" moreso than LU, LC and Bucknell "stepped up" due to the formation of the PL.

By contrast, HC's schedule in 1971:

Harvard
Dartmouth (a year after Dartmouth was in the 1-A Final Top 20)
Colgate
Boston University
Syracuse
Northeastern
UMass
Rutgers
UConn
Boston College

[Andy]

Holy Cross and Colgate were really the only schools playing "quasi" big-time football before the PL came about....the Pennsylvanian schools were basically glorified D2 programs...HC and Colgate "dropped down" moreso than LU, LC and Bucknell "stepped up" due to the formation of the PL.

By contrast, HC's schedule in 1971:

Harvard
Dartmouth (a year after Dartmouth was in the 1-A Final Top 20)
Colgate
Boston University
Syracuse
Northeastern
UMass
Rutgers
UConn
Boston College

Interesting. "Glorified Div 2" Lafayette beat Rutgers in '71 while the "quasi big-time" Crusaders lost. Must have been a terrible blow to your ego.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Interesting. "Glorified Div 2" Lafayette beat Rutgers in '71 while the "quasi big-time" Crusaders lost. Must have been a terrible blow to your ego.

xnodx The hits just keep coming, don't they?

[Franks Tanks]

Holy Cross and Colgate were really the only schools playing "quasi" big-time football before the PL came about....the Pennsylvanian schools were basically glorified D2 programs...HC and Colgate "dropped down" moreso than LU, LC and Bucknell "stepped up" due to the formation of the PL.

By contrast, HC's schedule in 1971:

Harvard
Dartmouth (a year after Dartmouth was in the 1-A Final Top 20)
Colgate
Boston University
Syracuse
Northeastern
UMass
Rutgers
UConn
Boston College


Perhaps winning the 1947 NCAA tournamnet helped the Saders procure such a schedule.

Actually Boston U, Northeastern, UMASS and UCONN were all small college or D-II in 1971. The point is that the line between college and university division was very blurry at the fringes.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Actually Boston U, Northeastern, UMASS and UCONN were all small college or D-II in 1971. The point is that the line between college and university division was very blurry at the fringes.

One of these schools took a Big East invite, the other is flirting with a MAC invite to "save their program", and the last two, well, don't play football anymore.

You could argue that Holy Cross, along with CCSU, Bryant, Sacred Heart and Rhode Island, are the only "small colleges" left playing Division I football in the Northeast, depending on how you feel about UNH and Maine sponsoring the full allotment of football scholarships.

If only the "line were blurred" today.

[aceinthehole]

Holy Cross and Colgate were really the only schools playing "quasi" big-time football before the PL came about....the Pennsylvanian schools were basically glorified D2 programs...HC and Colgate "dropped down" moreso than LU, LC and Bucknell "stepped up" due to the formation of the PL.

By contrast, HC's schedule in 1971:

Harvard
Dartmouth (a year after Dartmouth was in the 1-A Final Top 20)
Colgate
Boston University
Syracuse
Northeastern
UMass
Rutgers
UConn
Boston College

Who on that schedule is 'big-time'?

A Boston College team that hadn't seen a bowl game since WWII?
Multiple, Division II Yankee Conference teams?
A Rutgers program that had never seen a bowl game, ever?
Ivy League teams that were at the sunset of their 'major' status?

[superman7515]

Who on that schedule is 'big-time'?

A historically awful Big Ten program?
A Boston College team that hadn't seen a bowl game since WWII?
Three Division II Yankee Conference teams?
A Rutgers program that had never seen a bowl game, ever?
Ivy League teams that were at the sunset of their 'major' status?

Which one is your fictional Big Ten program?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Which one is your fictional Big Ten program?

Syracuse or Rutgers, take your pick. xlolx

Remember back in the Summer of 2010, when that made oh-so-much sense? xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

Who on that schedule is 'big-time'?

A historically awful Big Ten program?
A Boston College team that hadn't seen a bowl game since WWII?
Three Division II Yankee Conference teams?
A Rutgers program that had never seen a bowl game, ever?
Ivy League teams that were at the sunset of their 'major' status?

I like to make fun of Sader as much as anyone, but that was pretty much all the Northeast had to offer in football.

[aceinthehole]

Which one is your fictional Big Ten program?

Oops. I misread Northeastern, as NorthWESTERN.

Proves my point further. HC played a schedule of 'peers' and one 'step-up' program in 'Cuse. That's no different than Colgate's 2010 schedule.

[aceinthehole]

I like to make fun of Sader as much as anyone, but that was pretty all the Northeast had to offer in football.

I agree and there is nothing wrong with that schedule, except for Sader characterizing it as 'big-time.' That was the majority of program in the Northeast available, but to think that HC is somehow better than its current PL peers is laughable.

[aceinthehole]

One of these schools took a Big East invite, the other is flirting with a MAC invite to "save their program", and the last two, well, don't play football anymore.

You could argue that Holy Cross, along with CCSU, Bryant, Sacred Heart and Rhode Island, are the only "small colleges" left playing Division I football in the Northeast, depending on how you feel about UNH and Maine sponsoring the full allotment of football scholarships.

If only the "line were blurred" today.

LFN - how do you define "small college" football?

To most of America, small college football is FCS football, regardless of conference affiliation or scholarships. Maybe in the Northeast, some may call small college football D-II/D-III, but does it really matter in the big picture?

Is Assumption and Holy Cross playing small college football? I don't see where you are going with this.

[Go...gate]

I like to make fun of Sader as much as anyone, but that was pretty much all the Northeast had to offer in football.

Right, and you LC guys can correct me on this, but I don't believe that Lafayette was ever Division II, and if it was, it was very brief. As far back as I can recollect, they were always considered a "Major Independent". xthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross and Colgate were really the only schools playing "quasi" big-time football before the PL came about....the Pennsylvanian schools were basically glorified D2 programs...HC and Colgate "dropped down" moreso than LU, LC and Bucknell "stepped up" due to the formation of the PL.

By contrast, HC's schedule in 1971:

Harvard
Dartmouth (a year after Dartmouth was in the 1-A Final Top 20)
Colgate
Boston University
Syracuse
Northeastern
UMass
Rutgers
UConn
Boston College

We played ten games - LU, LC, BU, HC (which beat us 28-14), Princeton, Yale, Brown, Cornell, Rutgers and Boston University.

[Franks Tanks]

Right, and you LC guys can correct me on this, but I don't believe that Lafayette was ever Division II, and if it was, it was very brief. As far back as I can recollect, they were always considered a "Major Independent". xthumbsupx

According to College Football Data Warehouse Lafayette, Bucknell, and Lehigh were D-II from 1973-1977.

[Go...gate]

I agree and there is nothing wrong with that schedule, except for Sader characterizing it as 'big-time.' That was the majority of program in the Northeast available, but to think that HC is somehow better than its current PL peers is laughable.

Beginning in the late 1950's until the late 1970's, except for Syracuse, Penn State, and the occasional hot year by Dartmouth (Top 20 and Lambert Trophy winner in 1965, 14th ranked Lambert Trophy winner in 1970) Pittsburgh (after 1973), Army (Blaik's last team in 1958 and Tom Cahill's early years), Navy (1960), Rutgers (Top 20 and 9-0 in 1961, 18th ranked and 11-0 in 1976), Colgate (1977) and Holy Cross (1978) Eastern football was definitely not the biggest time. I actually kind of liked it because it was, in part, played by kids who were NOT seeking NFL contracts but rather using football to get a college education (sometimes the first in their families), better themselves and take a step ahead in life.

[Go...gate]

According to College Football Data Warehouse Lafayette, Bucknell, and Lehigh were D-II from 1973-1977.

For LC, five years out of what - 120 years of football?

[Franks Tanks]

For LC, five years out of what - 120 years of football?

1937-1937 NCAA College Division (Small College)

1938-1950 NCAA University Division (Major College)

1951-1972 NCAA College Division (Small College)

1973-1977 NCAA Division II

1978-20XX NCAA Division I-AA

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/lafayette/index.php

Lehigh and Bucknell have the exact same path so it would appear there was some sort of split in 1950 as well. As we noted Colgate and Holy Cross played in the "University Division" and had more "big" schools on the schedule way back in the day, but the differences weren't as defined as today.

[RichH2]

Being an old fart, I must admit that I enjoyed eastern football in the late 50s and early 60s. Pards were always there but to me Penn and Delaware were the games I was psyched for. More flexibility with schedules back then. The Middle 5 was fun.

While I think trends in scheduling are too ambiguous to read for the long term, it may be that we see a split widening between those scheduling up and those not in OOC. Even so, does not forebode an end to the PL as the available OOC games if we cotinue with Ivies is only 2-3 a year usually. Will that make that much difference?

[Go...gate]

1937-1937 NCAA College Division (Small College)

1938-1950 NCAA University Division (Major College)

1951-1972 NCAA College Division (Small College)

1973-1977 NCAA Division II

1978-20XX NCAA Division I-AA

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/patriot/lafayette/index.php

Lehigh and Bucknell have the exact same path so it would appear there was some sort of split in 1950 as well. As we noted Colgate and Holy Cross played in the "University Division" and had more "big" schools on the schedule way back in the day, but the differences weren't as defined as today.

It's funny, but at least for me and my peers going back a long way, the perception was that LC was "bigger time" in athletics than Lehigh or Bucknell. No offense to BU or LU - maybe it was because you guys played Colgate longer, and you also played Penn and Army when both were major programs. Going to the NIT in basketball when the NIT was a much more glamorous and important tournament also made a difference, IMO.

[DFW HOYA]

PL 2011 strength of schedule:

1. Fordham
2. Lafayette
3. Lehigh
4. Colgate
5. Holy Cross
6. Bucknell
7. Georgetown

[Franks Tanks]

It's funny, but at least for me and my peers going back a long way, the perception was that LC was "bigger time" in athletics than Lehigh or Bucknell. No offense to BU or LU - maybe it was because you guys played Colgate longer, and you also played Penn and Army when both were major programs. Going to the NIT in basketball when the NIT was a much more glamorous and important tournament also made a difference, IMO.

This is all before my time so I can't speak of perception . LC was a pretty formidable basketball school back in the day. We had coaches like Tom Davis and Butch Van Breanda Kopfh, and had some good success on the hardwood.

Looking back it appears that both LC and LU were equally medicore in football in the 50's and 60's. LU has some really good teams in the 70's and that culminated in the 1977 D-II National Championship. The Leopards roared back in the 80's under Bill Russo, and soon after the PL was formed.

One thing has stayed the same..... LC typically loses to Colgate in Football :(.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Butch Van Breanda Kopfh

You really Butch-ered that one, Tanks! :p

[Franks Tanks]

You really Butch-ered that one, Tanks! :p

Ya, that was bad. I will just call him Butch VBK like everyone else.

[Go...gate]

Ya, that was bad. I will just call him Butch VBK like everyone else.

Butch was a good guy. He loved to coach and play basketball, whether it was with Bill Bradley or junior high school kids.

[Sader87]

Getting back to my post from last night, I said HC (and Colgate) were still playing "quasi" big-time football in the 1970's and 1980's prior to the formation of the PL. It was probably equivalent to the level that the CAA plays at now. It definitely was at a higher level (week in/week out) than the level of football that Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette we're competing against. There were no D2 Kutztowns, E. Stroudsbourgs, Merchant Marines, West Chesters etc. etc. (after the formation of 1-AA) on HC schedules in that era though they dotted many of the Pennsylvanian schools schedules back then. I'm just saying that HC played at a level probably a "half of a division" higher then than it does now after a quarter of a century in the PL.

ps. The addition of UNH may alter our strength of schedule next year DFW.

[DFW HOYA]

The addition of UNH may alter our strength of schedule next year DFW.

Are you sure you don't want Howard back? Sagarin ratings of Georgetown's non-conference opponents (out of 245 teams):
at Yale (177)
at Wagner (203)
at Marist (233)
Davidson (236)
at Howard (244)

Ten years into the PL, and Georgetown will be favored in what, two of these? This revisits an earlier discussion questioning whether Georgetown was getting better talent before it joined the PL, or after. I think it's the latter, but recruiting certainly hasn't landed the transformational athlete(s).

[Sader87]

What's frustrating (and a bit ironic) is that HC actually got "better" on the field after being relegated to D1-AA in 1981. Though we would have an occasional decent year in the 1970's with wins over BC, Army and Air Force mixed in over the decade, we were better year-in/year-out during the decade of the 1980's but then the elimination of football scholarships relegated us to the "have-not" status where we are today. It's not as if we were beating up on just the Ivies and the PL during the 1980's either...throughout the decade we had multiple victories over other scholarship programs like Army, UMass, Delaware, William&Mary et. al.

[DFW HOYA]

What's frustrating (and a bit ironic) is that HC actually got "better" on the field after being relegated to D1-AA in 1981.

Question--not what you want to happen, but where do you see HC in 3-5 years:
a) full steam ahead on scholarships, as games with BC and UConn appear on the horizon,
b) right where they are now--lots of Ivies and maybe a CAA here and there, or
c) settling in with Georgetown and Bucknell in some sort of lower expectations PL after other schools have left?

[Sader87]

Question--not what you want to happen, but where do you see HC in 3-5 years:
a) full steam ahead on scholarships, as games with BC and UConn appear on the horizon,
b) right where they are now--lots of Ivies and maybe a CAA here and there, or
c) settling in with Georgetown and Bucknell in some sort of lower expectations PL after other schools have left?


It's a very good question and I'm not altogether sure anyone (alumni, administration, the few non-alum fans left, students etc.) have any idea how to answer.

There are many alumni who would vote "a" but we are getting grayer by the day. If you were a freshman in 1986 (last BC game), you'd be pushing into your mid-40's today. Most alumni under 40 or so have no idea what it was like to have a strong football program to go watch on campus, travel to see etc. I think I'm one of a dying breed sadly.

The current administration enjoys the status quo...competitive in the PL, playing the Ivies about even or so...so that would that put them in column "b" as you define it. There will be a new president at HC soon...will be interesting to see where he falls on this philosophically.

I don't think there's much support for "c" anywhere but then again this is a school that has made disasterous decisions with regards to athletics in the past (not joining the Big East or A-10 in hoop, eliminating football scholarships etc) so anything's possible.

Hope that "helps." xlolx

[superman7515]

What's frustrating (and a bit ironic) is that HC actually got "better" on the field after being relegated to D1-AA in 1981. Though we would have an occasional decent year in the 1970's with wins over BC, Army and Air Force mixed in over the decade, we were better year-in/year-out during the decade of the 1980's but then the elimination of football scholarships relegated us to the "have-not" status where we are today. It's not as if we were beating up on just the Ivies and the PL during the 1980's either...throughout the decade we had multiple victories over other scholarship programs like Army, UMass, Delaware, William&Mary et. al.

Delaware wasn't scholarship in the mid-80's. It was need based financial aid.

[Sader87]

Delaware wasn't scholarship in the mid-80's. It was need based financial aid.

Whatever....you were still a premiere 1-AA program just not quite at the level of Holy Cross in the 1980's.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Whatever....you were still a premiere 1-AA program just not quite at the level of Holy Cross in the 1980's.

If you're going to throw wins of Delaware out there as wins over "premier 1-AA programs", you might as well throw Lehigh in there as well, who, like Delaware, were D-II champions and not far removed from the I-AA playoffs when you met (and beat) them.

I think the point is made - back in the day, all these programs were various shades of grey. It was hard to put them in rigid classifications.

[Sader87]

If you're going to throw wins of Delaware out there as wins over "premier 1-AA programs", you might as well throw Lehigh in there as well, who, like Delaware, were D-II champions and not far removed from the I-AA playoffs when you met (and beat) them.

I think the point is made - back in the day, all these programs were various shades of grey. It was hard to put them in rigid classifications.

No, it's really not...Holy Cross in the 1970's and 1980's was playing at a level clearly above the rest of the PL (aside from maybe Colgate) with more opponents on their schedule on a national (or at least an Eastern regional) level, attendence at games (often 20,000+ at home), more media attention (ABC regional games) etc. etc. than the other PL schools ever approached. The PL has been a giant step backwards for HC football.

[Go...gate]

If you're going to throw wins of Delaware out there as wins over "premier 1-AA programs", you might as well throw Lehigh in there as well, who, like Delaware, were D-II champions and not far removed from the I-AA playoffs when you met (and beat) them.

I think the point is made - back in the day, all these programs were various shades of grey. It was hard to put them in rigid classifications.

No, it's really not...Holy Cross in the 1970's and 1980's was playing at a level clearly above the rest of the PL (aside from maybe Colgate) with more opponents on their schedule on a national (or at least an Eastern regional) level, attendence at games (often 20,000+ at home), more media attention (ABC regional games) etc. etc. than the other PL schools ever approached. The PL has been a giant step backwards for HC football.

HC's teams in the 1970 -1980 period (save '78) were OK, but not great.

You guys were really, really good between 1981 and 1991 (except for one bad year ('85?) after which Rick Carter, a Dayton grad and a hell of a fine coach and person, tragically took his own life. HC's 1986 - 1988 teams were utterly awesome, and 1987 was arguably the best I-AA team ever, IMO. AIR, the only ABC regional games you got were Colgate in 1982 and BC in 1986. You also got an ESPN Thursday night telecast against Villanova in 1987, and an Ivy League Game of the Week in 1989 against Princeton.

FWIW, Colgate received two ABC games as well - Rutgers (Thanksgivng 1976) and HC in 1982, and it was on the PBS Ivy League Game of the Week in 1987 against Cornell. It finished the 1977 season ranked third in the I-A Lambert Poll and was in the AP I-A Top 20 for a week. So there isn't really much to choose from.

Just my xtwocentsx

[Franks Tanks]

No, it's really not...Holy Cross in the 1970's and 1980's was playing at a level clearly above the rest of the PL (aside from maybe Colgate) with more opponents on their schedule on a national (or at least an Eastern regional) level, attendence at games (often 20,000+ at home), more media attention (ABC regional games) etc. etc. than the other PL schools ever approached. The PL has been a giant step backwards for HC football.[/QUOTE]




How many Holy Cross games had 20k fans in the 80's? Don't act like Fitton was full every single week.

I think its funny that a similar discussion is going on at the Colgate board. A Colgate poster made the point that they have played more games vs. the Ivies than any PL school and have the best record. As usual a Holy Cross poster swoops in to attempt to degrade Colgate in some way, and point out how Holy Cross athletics was far superior.

I have never seen a group that lives in the past like Holy Cross. You guys seriously need a mass counseling session so you can let go and give it a rest. We know you won the NCAA tournament 64 years ago. We are aware you were invited to join the Big East basketball conference about 30 years ago. We know of Gordie and what he did a quarter of a century ago. Give us all a break.

[superman7515]

Whatever....you were still a premiere 1-AA program just not quite at the level of Holy Cross in the 1980's.

Never let the facts stand in the way of a good story. Carry on.

[Sader87]

Never let the facts stand in the way of a good story. Carry on.

Lambert Cup winners in the 1980's (established in 1982, signifying the best 1-AA team in the East):

1982 Delaware
1983 Holy Cross
1984 URI
1985 URI
1986 Holy Cross
1987 Holy Cross
1988 Holy Cross
1989 Holy Cross

[superman7515]

Lambert Cup winners in the 1980's (established in 1982, signifying the best 1-AA team in the East):

1982 Delaware
1983 Holy Cross
1984 URI
1985 URI
1986 Holy Cross
1987 Holy Cross
1988 Holy Cross
1989 Holy Cross

And that has what to do with you beating premier scholarship programs that didn't have scholarships or playing big time schedules and going 4-6 against Northeastern, Boston U, Rutgers, and the Ivies? The point you claimed to be you making was Holy Cross was better before the Patriot League, and yet you throw in that you won the Lambert Cup 4 times after the Patriot League but only once before it. It's great you're enthusiastic about your team, but you're clearly just making it up as you go along.

[Andy]

Lambert Cup winners in the 1980's (established in 1982, signifying the best 1-AA team in the East):

1982 Delaware
1983 Holy Cross
1984 URI
1985 URI
1986 Holy Cross
1987 Holy Cross
1988 Holy Cross
1989 Holy Cross

1988 was an interesting year. Lafayette and Army were the only 2 teams to defeat scholarship Holy Cross. Lafayette also lost to Army as well as Penn while tying Cornell. How odd is it for a team to not win their league but still finish first in Lambert voting?

[Sader87]

And that has what to do with you beating premier scholarship programs that didn't have scholarships or playing big time schedules and going 4-6 against Northeastern, Boston U, Rutgers, and the Ivies? The point you claimed to be you making was Holy Cross was better before the Patriot League, and yet you throw in that you won the Lambert Cup 4 times after the Patriot League but only once before it. It's great you're enthusiastic about your team, but you're clearly just making it up as you go along.

No, it just shows how good HC (and other PL schools) could be if allowed to give scholarships. All those HC teams of the 80's had a full roster of football scholarships.

As for how often Fitton had crowds of 20,000+...I don't have the exact figures but anecdotally I'd say these games either came close or were definitely above 20K at Fitton: Yale and BC '81, Dartmouth and Harvard (ABC regional game) '82, Colgate '83, UMass and BC '84, Colgate '85, Dartmouth, UMass, BC '86, Colgate, Harvard '87, Harvard '88, Villanova, Princeton '89.

ETA: I agree Andy...that is odd. I was trying to find the final 1988 LC voting but haven't been able to locate it yet. HC actually came very, very, very close to dropping to 1-3 that year...they defeated Princeton on a "Cal-Stanford band" KO return to win 30-26 at Princeton. Lucky enough to be in attendence that afternoon.

[Sader87]

Taking this thread back to its original intent, it looks like UNH did not pick up HC (or vice versa) for its 11th game. They (UNH) scheduled D2 Central St. instead which leaves HC still looking for an 11th opponent next fall. xnonono2x

[aceinthehole]

Sader - Are they returning calls from CCSU?

Less than 75 miles away is an opponent ready and willing to play. Let's get it done!