It's OK Not To Move Up To The FBS

[superman7515]

Sports Network (http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/misc/haley/index.htm)


Philadelphia, PA (Sports Network) - There hasn't been any report of a caravan of cars racing out of Missoula, Montana. All is calm.

The University of Montana football program has moved on from the flirtation that its administration had with the Western Athletic Conference before it decided to stay in the FCS and not pursue potential riches of the FBS. Many in the Grizzlies' rabid fan base supported the decision to remain in the Big Sky Conference.

The prospect of FCS schools jumping up a level, and the many moves of conference realignments in all of Division I, are still dominating college football conversations. Few FCS schools, though, will hit the jackpot with a move up to the FBS, although in the fall of 2012 Texas State of the Southland Conference and Texas-San Antonio's startup program will make the move to the WAC that Montana passed on. South Alabama's third-year program, like UTSA an FCS independent this coming season, is headed to the FBS. Meanwhile, Massachusetts of CAA Football is being wooed by the Mid-American Conference and several others are studying whether the leap in divisions is feasible.

Indeed, the wheels remain turning.

The most prominent decisions are being awaited at Villanova, which is deciding on a standing offer from the Big East, and Appalachian State, which if it decides to move up would be an excellent addition for Conference USA, with the Sun Belt probably the backup option.....

[WMTribe90]

Good read. One small clarification, more accurate to say UMass is wooing the MAC then vice versa. UMass will accept an offer if the MAC extends it, but its not certain tht will happen.

Agree about ASU, they are the only FCS move-up that makes snese IMO. AS for VU. BE football is a great opportunity, but its just not a good fit for VU due to their issues with attendance and the stadium. I just don't see VU increasing attendance to the 25,000+ range that would be needed to financiallly sustain the move up, especially when they will likely be mediocre at best on the field at that level.

UMass could compete in the MAC no problem, but MAC membership isn't an upgrade over the CAA in anything but name. I get the stepping stone argument and if it eventually leads to BE membership then great for UMass. In the interim they likely lose more money and local rivalries with UNH and Maine. Guess I'm indifferent on UMass. They're school profile fits well in the FBS and they've had football success. On the other hand, I don't see much benefit to MAC membership and who knows if it'll ever lead to anything better.

[darell1976]

When you look at the Pros and Cons does it really pay to move up to the FBS?? Besides a second rate bowl game and more ESPN exposure you don't really gain much. A Boise State doesn't happen to every team.

[JDC325]

When you look at the Pros and Cons does it really pay to move up to the FBS?? Besides a second rate bowl game and more ESPN exposure you don't really gain much. A Boise State doesn't happen to every team.

Depends on every schools specific situation. It also depends on how you see your athletic program and what its function is supposed to be for the university as a whole. Another Louisiana school no way, another Georgia school, more than enough room with overflow talent spilling out of the state. Certainly Boise is the current dream for any school and obviously not every school moving up is going to see that success but no matter how improbable it is still possible, which you can not say about the FCS. FAU has been horrible in their short stint in the FBS, due to a rushed jump, but would they be able to build the stadium they are building right now if they were still in the FCS....no way. Point being even though some teams have made horribly planned jumps the ones whose circumstances allow for long range growth are still managing to build and improve in ways the FCS would have never provided. Teams like UM, GSU, UMASS, App etc etc have reached the limit to what the FCS can provide. So while there is nothing "wrong" football wise only for staying put there is also absolutely nothing wrong with teams that have reached the summit of this division taking a look at moving up either. I will never understand the hate, envy, or what ever some folks want to spin it as, that abounds on here for teams wanting to test themselves at the next level. One it makes your life a lot better if an App, UMASS, Or UM moves on and two worst case scenario they move back down if the economics never gets to a point where is makes sense for them. UMASS to the MAC in our eyes does not mean a big deal as FCS fans but our "educated" view as interested FCS fans is not how the vast majority of the rest of the world will view it. Most don't bother to look up Sagarin ratings. To most college football fans either you are DIV I or DIV II. Even after six NC's I don't know how many time I have had to tell other GSU "fans" that we are DIV I not DIV II and all our other sports compete at the highest level. Is is not right but perception right or wrong has consequences on how your entire athletic program and to some extent how your school in general is viewed. So it is not as simple as debating playoffs and a valid chance at an NC vs. a "toilet" bowl in the least. With the NCAA seemingly want to close the door on upward movement I don't blame anyone for making a jump. I would hate to be a team with a real shot at being competitive at the next level being caught on the wrong side of the fence forever whether it be DIV II to FCS or FCS to FBS.

[Anovafan]

Back in August, I thought I had a read on what Nova would do, now, not so much. I don't think the university even knows what it is going to do in April. There are board members on each side, so I would not be surprised either way.

One thing that should have been in the article, and should be mentioned, is that with a move to FBS, the FCS schools are forfeiting the chance to win a national championship. App St. will not win a NC out of the C-USA or Sunbelt, Montana would not win one out of the WAC. Nova has about a 1 in a trillion chance to win one out of the Big East if it joins. If Nova moves to FBS, I will certainly miss the chance to make the playoffs each year and try to legitimately win a NC.

[JDC325]

Back in August, I thought I had a read on what Nova would do, now, not so much. I don't think the university even knows what it is going to do in April. There are board members on each side, so I would not be surprised either way.

One thing that should have been in the article, and should be mentioned, is that with a move to FBS, the FCS schools are forfeiting the chance to win a national championship. App St. will not win a NC out of the C-USA or Sunbelt, Montana would not win one out of the WAC. Nova has about a 1 in a trillion chance to win one out of the Big East if it joins. If Nova moves to FBS, I will certainly miss the chance to make the playoffs each year and try to legitimately win a NC.

I agree totally but obviously most FBS schools even a lot of BCS schools have no realistic shot at winning a BcS "NC" and still all but the worst and or youngest FBS teams do not manage to outdraw the very elite of the FCS. Nor does the FCS championship game outdraw but the occasional "toliet" bowl. In the end for most folks it is about being entertained and based on numbers alone even the lowest levels of FBS football is more entertaining than what the FCS can provide. I love the playoffs and witnessed GSU win two NCAA DIV I NC's however I with the majority of GSU fans still lean towards GSU to eventually making a move even with the knowledge that winning a "NC" at the next level would be a long shot if ever. Heck Ga State fans started a football team with never wanting to stay in FCS much less debate the merits of a playoff system vs. the bowl system. It comes down to what you prefer long term, winning NC's on the back of constantly playing lesser competition or taking your lumps early on to eventually TRY to prove yourself at a higher level. Either way to each his own and folks should not hate on schools that want or haved moved up. It is about the individual school's specific circumstances and the wishes of their fan base. It does not matter what Boise or UL Monroe have or have not accomplished or what conference you join.

[DJKyR0]

It's certainly true that a Boise St. doesn't happen to every team, but neither does a Western Kentucky. Both moves have their pros and cons. Personally I like the idea of cultivating some consistent success at this level rather than have everyone who's good jet up (not that I'll retain that mindset once NDSU inevitably flirts with the idea of FBS).

[Blueandwhitefightfight]

All this talk about Boise being Cinderella. Truth is, they just have a really great program. It wasn't a fluke. Their coach is amazing. He has been there for 5 years and has a 61-5 record. They have been extremely strong despite being in a non-BCS conference.


Also, it's not just Boise. TCU is in a non-BCS conference and has made it to BCS bowl games a couple of times in the past few years.

You can play in a non-BCS conference and still make it big as long as you have a tough out of conference schedule and win all of your games.


If App. went I-A/FBS, I could realistically see them going to a BCS Bowl game within 10 years. It wouldn't surprise me at all. They have the facilities and coaches to do so. They only thing they need is a FBS conference to call home, extra scholarships, and the prestige from being FBS to bolster recruiting.

Meanwhile, Georgia Southern will be trapped in the second tier of football without App. St.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

It's certainly true that a Boise St. doesn't happen to every team, but neither does a Western Kentucky. Both moves have their pros and cons. Personally I like the idea of cultivating some consistent success at this level rather than have everyone who's good jet up (not that I'll retain that mindset once NDSU inevitably flirts with the idea of FBS).

NDSU, SDSU, Montana, Delaware, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Maine, and UMass are schools I don't understand being FCS. App, Ga Southern, E Carolina, and most "Directional U's" have beginnings as "Normal" schools and Teacher's Colleges. The schools above are their respective state's "big deal" public schools. I understand these states have relatively small populations, but doesn't that also mean less in-state competition for funding and recruits?

I would think 'Nova would let it's Basketball revenue supplement FBS Football shortfalls for a few years while it tries to emulate UConn's and Rutgers football paths. Montana has issues with the State Legislature forcing Montana State to be tied to any move they make. NDSU is probably headed to FBS. I honestly don't see why, if Temple is FBS, the northeastern state schools can't swing it.

[DFW HOYA]

I would think 'Nova would let it's Basketball revenue supplement FBS Football shortfalls for a few years while it tries to emulate UConn's and Rutgers football paths.

There isn't enough of a surplus out of Big East basketball to float the costs of I-A football. Georgetown understands this.

A new TV contract is another matter, which is probably why Villanova is giving this a longer look.

[dbackjon]

I agree totally but obviously most FBS schools even a lot of BCS schools have no realistic shot at winning a BcS "NC" and still all but the worst and or youngest FBS teams do not manage to outdraw the very elite of the FCS. Nor does the FCS championship game outdraw but the occasional "toliet" bowl. In the end for most folks it is about being entertained and based on numbers alone even the lowest levels of FBS football is more entertaining than what the FCS can provide. I love the playoffs and witnessed GSU win two NCAA DIV I NC's however I with the majority of GSU fans still lean towards GSU to eventually making a move even with the knowledge that winning a "NC" at the next level would be a long shot if ever. Heck Ga State fans started a football team with never wanting to stay in FCS much less debate the merits of a playoff system vs. the bowl system. It comes down to what you prefer long term, winning NC's on the back of constantly playing lesser competition or taking your lumps early on to eventually TRY to prove yourself at a higher level. Either way to each his own and folks should not hate on schools that want or haved moved up. It is about the individual school's specific circumstances and the wishes of their fan base. It does not matter what Boise or UL Monroe have or have not accomplished or what conference you join.

ASU, even with the hit from the playoff game, outdrew 39 FBS teams, including all of the MAC, all of the SunBelt, 4 of 9 of MWC, 6 of 12 of CUSA, and Washington State.

[Saint3333]

When you look at the Pros and Cons does it really pay to move up to the FBS?? Besides a second rate bowl game and more ESPN exposure you don't really gain much. A Boise State doesn't happen to every team.

The main question is regular season vs. postseason. The regular season games just aren't appealing at the FCS level, but I do like the playoffs more than the bowl games.

[CrunchGriz]

NDSU, SDSU, Montana, Delaware, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Maine, and UMass are schools I don't understand being FCS. App, Ga Southern, E Carolina, and most "Directional U's" have beginnings as "Normal" schools and Teacher's Colleges. The schools above are their respective state's "big deal" public schools. I understand these states have relatively small populations, but doesn't that also mean less in-state competition for funding and recruits?

You're completely missing the vast differences in population between the states you mention and more populous states, like yours.

Georgia's 2010 census shows 9,685,744 people.
Montana's 2010 census shows 989,415 people.

That's essentially 10 times the population. Even if you assume that the talent levels in the two states' high schools are roughly equal per capita (probably doubtful, as much as I want to believe that Montana produces quality football players with the best of them, despite the 9 or 10 current Montana natives in the NFL), that means 10 times the FBS talent in Georgia than there is in Montana (not to mention 10 times the funding, all other things being equal--in reality, there are far more large corporations in Georgia than 10 times the number in Montana, if only because of the draw of a metropolis like Atlanta).

As it is, Montana for many years garnered virtually all the best quality in-state talent (this has evened out a lot more these days, as MSU has improved in the last few years in this regard), with only a handful or less of the most talented players getting FBS scholarships to schools outside Montana. Even if Montana got all of these blue-chip in-state recruits, it would still not be a competitive FBS team like Boise State. Boise State has to recruit mostly out of state to get the recruits (many from California) necessary to be a nationally-ranked FBS team.

[Jackman]

NDSU, SDSU, Montana, Delaware, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Maine, and UMass are schools I don't understand being FCS. App, Ga Southern, E Carolina, and most "Directional U's" have beginnings as "Normal" schools and Teacher's Colleges. The schools above are their respective state's "big deal" public schools. I understand these states have relatively small populations, but doesn't that also mean less in-state competition for funding and recruits?

That's correct with the exception of Massachusetts. The most populous states in which the flagship state university doesn't play FBS football are:

6,547,629 Massachusetts
1,328,361 Maine
1,316,470 New Hampshire
1,052,567 Rhode Island
989,415 Montana
900,877 Delaware
814,180 South Dakota
710,231 Alaska (no football at all)
672,591 North Dakota
625,741 Vermont (no football at all)

And here are the two least populous states in which the flagship plays FBS football:
1,360,301 Hawaii
563,626 Wyoming

So other than Massachusetts, everyone left would be the second smallest state at that level. Only Massachusetts is way out of order. And maybe Wyoming.

Note that the 4 largest are all New England states, and that Connecticut and New York only recently got off this list. It's a cultural thing.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Montana and Delaware, next on the list, are 2 of the 3 biggest stars at the FCS level, and that the Dakotas are rapidly rising after moving from Division II. Maybe Vermont could be like the Dakotas, but more likely they'd be like Rhode Island. The extreme northeast punches below its weight class.

[CrunchGriz]

That's correct with the exception of Massachusetts. The most populous states in which the flagship state university doesn't play FBS football are:

6,547,629 Massachusetts
1,328,361 Maine
1,316,470 New Hampshire
1,052,567 Rhode Island
989,415 Montana
900,877 Delaware
814,180 South Dakota
710,231 Alaska (no football at all)
672,591 North Dakota
625,741 Vermont (no football at all)

And here are the two least populous states in which the flagship plays FBS football:
1,360,301 Hawaii
563,626 Wyoming

So other than Massachusetts, everyone left would be the second smallest state at that level. Only Massachusetts is way out of order. And maybe Wyoming.

Note that the 4 largest are all New England states, and that Connecticut and New York only recently got off this list. It's a cultural thing.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Montana and Delaware, next on the list, are 2 of the 3 biggest stars at the FCS level, and that the Dakotas are rapidly rising after moving from Division II. Maybe Vermont could be like the Dakotas, but more likely they'd be like Rhode Island. The extreme northeast punches below its weight class.

The thing that stands out to me here is that of the above-mentioned states, only Maine, Delaware, Hawaii, and Wyoming have no in-state Div. I competition for recruits and money. All of the others have at least one other FCS school plus the flagship school with which the flagship must compete for athletes and resources.

Notably, Hawaii and Wyoming have no other Div. I competition in-state (Wyoming has no other colleges, period). It's not surprising that they are able to compete at the FBS level (well, maybe not so well lately, but they have at times in the past). Hawaii does get a lot of Polynesian talent, including Samoan (and they are tough buggers).

[darell1976]

I would like to see UND move up to the FBS level someday (IMO I don't see that happening for another 15-20 years), but hopefully there will be a playoff system in place like all the other divisions have, and get rid of the bowl games.

[txstatebobcat]

The main question is regular season vs. postseason. The regular season games just aren't appealing at the FCS level, but I do like the playoffs more than the bowl games.


Currently Texas State is in negotiations with Texas Tech with the intention that the red raiders come to San Marcos for the opening game in 2012. This will Guarantee a 30,000+ crowd for the first home game in the 2012 season. Heck, the TxSt administration is trying to get the 2012 schedule out ASAP with the intention that only 2011 season ticket holders will be guaranteed tickets (if they renew of course) for that one game. If this were to occur I can guarantee you that there is nothing during the FCS regular season that would create a quarter of this much exitement in bobcat country.

[superman7515]

The thing that stands out to me here is that of the above-mentioned states, only Maine, Delaware, Hawaii, and Wyoming have no in-state Div. I competition for recruits and money. All of the others have at least one other FCS school plus the flagship school with which the flagship must compete for athletes and resources.

Notably, Hawaii and Wyoming have no other Div. I competition in-state (Wyoming has no other colleges, period). It's not surprising that they are able to compete at the FBS level (well, maybe not so well lately, but they have at times in the past). Hawaii does get a lot of Polynesian talent, including Samoan (and they are tough buggers).

Delaware does have "in-state Div. I competition for recruits and money". Delaware State gets $11.8 million in state and other gov't support for athletics (84% of DelState's athletics budget) while the University of Delaware gets $0. I guess it really isn't a competition for money then since the Blue Hens don't get any of it.

[glsjunior]

What I wonder about App St. is whether they have the monied Alums and boosters that it will take to run a decent FBS program. Just because you can be successful on the FCS level doesn't mean that you have the means to become competitive on the FBS level. In hindsight, teams like Marshall, ECU, and Western Kentucky probably should have stayed put. Although ECU and Marshall field competitive teams on occasion, they have to land a miracle recruit or 2 in order to do it. Hell I don't think that the Herd have done jack since Moss and Pennington left.

[Saint3333]

ECU was never 1-AA. As you are wondering, ASU already generates more external revenue than any Sun Belt school and the majority of CUSA schools.

[WUTNDITWAA]

What I wonder about App St. is whether they have the monied Alums and boosters that it will take to run a decent FBS program. Just because you can be successful on the FCS level doesn't mean that you have the means to become competitive on the FBS level. In hindsight, teams like Marshall, ECU, and Western Kentucky probably should have stayed put. Although ECU and Marshall field competitive teams on occasion, they have to land a miracle recruit or 2 in order to do it. Hell I don't think that the Herd have done jack since Moss and Pennington left.

ECU was never I-AA, so in a sense, they have stayed put.

[glsjunior]

ECU was never 1-AA. As you are wondering, ASU already generates more external revenue than any Sun Belt school and the majority of CUSA schools.

Yeah I knew I was wrong about ECU when I hit post.

[CrunchGriz]

Delaware does have "in-state Div. I competition for recruits and money". Delaware State gets $11.8 million in state and other gov't support for athletics (84% of DelState's athletics budget) while the University of Delaware gets $0. I guess it really isn't a competition for money then since the Blue Hens don't get any of it.

My bad on that. I forgot about Delaware State. Sorry, DSU fans. So that leaves only Maine of the lower population states with an FCS team without any in-state competition for players and funds.

[App-a-latch-un]

I love the FCS, I love playoffs and playing for championships, but I have to wait all season long for the opportunity while we play Western Carolina, Samford, and super weak OOC games. This season in particular looks VERY boring. I'm excited about VT, Nooga, and Georgia Southern games this year, outside of that, it's a snooze fest. While I love getting to play top FCS teams in the playoffs, I'd rather be excited about an entire schedule during the year with more opportunities in OOC games.

Also the playoffs are unpredictable and people can't plan ahead to make it to the games, attendance is weak and very disappointing that the most exciting game of the year is the least attended.

I used to be against the move up, but the conditions are almost perfect if the opportunity is there. I don't want to look at next years schedule with a sigh as I am now.

Perfect scenario, beat the hell outta Georgia Southern, home playoff schedule, then a NC in frisco this year and off to C-USA next year.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Perfect scenario, beat the hell outta Georgia Southern, home playoff schedule, then a NC in frisco this year and off to C-USA next year.

"Rubber game" this year. We're both 7-3 against each other at home since we restarted football.

[App-a-latch-un]

"Rubber game" this year. We're both 7-3 against each other at home since we restarted football.

More perfect scenario would be for Georgia Southern to come along with us, I'd hate to lose the rivalry.

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

When you look at the Pros and Cons does it really pay to move up to the FBS?? Besides a second rate bowl game and more ESPN exposure you don't really gain much. A Boise State doesn't happen to every team.

The Southern Conference Ppays Sports South for their television coverage (football & basketball). ASU's portion is roughly $45,000. The school made ZERO dollars on the ESPN NATIONALLY televised game with Wofford in '08. The school makes ZERO dollars from the appearances on the ESPN networks during the playoffs. The conference gets about $250,000 annually from NCAA television contracts, around $20,000 per school.

CUSA is paid roughly $3 million annually from the NCAA and recently signed a $15 million TV deal with the Fox Sports Family of Networks.

Just doing the rough math ASU would go from a loss of $20,000 to a gain of around $1.2 million on television revenues alone.

As an FCS school ASU will receive $350,000 for playing at UGA in 2013. UGA pays FBS schools in excess of $950,000. If that school is in a higher conference like CUSA the figure moves to over $1 million.

In just those situations alone, if ASU were in CUSA in 2013 (I realize UGA will not change the contract figures now) the net gain to the athletic department would be right at $2 million. That doesn't take into consideration the increased revenues from season ticket sales and home games with ECU and Marshall. Yes we need to build some seats, but that is the easy part. In basketball the difference will be dramatic. Here in ACC country the SoCon is percieved as a joke. Davidson had thet good run with Curry, but that is all over now. ASU's basketball attendance is horrible and the program generates very little revenue from ticket sales. There is a big difference in Elon and the Memphis Tigers coming to town.

I understand there will be increased expenses and nobody expects ASU to make money on the move. However, the figures show ASU will lose less money than now with a much higher level of competition, in all sports.

[superman7515]

CUSA is paid roughly $3 million annually from the NCAA and recently signed a $15 million TV deal with the Fox Sports Family of Networks.

Not sure where you came up with those numbers, but the Orlando Sentinel and Sports Business Journal reported the deal signed in January with Fox was worth $7 million a year for 2011 to the 2015/16 football season. Also the NCAA tv deal money that comes down, CUSA does not distribute equally among members. UAB and Southern Miss both got over $1 million of that $3 million while UCF and Memphis both got $0.

[JDC325]

It's certainly true that a Boise St. doesn't happen to every team, but neither does a Western Kentucky. Both moves have their pros and cons. Personally I like the idea of cultivating some consistent success at this level rather than have everyone who's good jet up (not that I'll retain that mindset once NDSU inevitably flirts with the idea of FBS).

It took Boise 11 years to reach their current status.Boise did not become Boise over night folks. WKU just completed only their second official year in the FBS and just landed 11 three star recruits on Rivals. Just saying only two years is kind of quick to judge the success of a jump.

[gophoenix]

There is a big difference in Elon and the Memphis Tigers coming to town.


And there you have it folks. That's why you get so many people with negative comments on a moveup. Because, it's not about better competition. It's not about money. It's about the perception of some people, in putting down the current peer schools, like in the above statement.

And despite UMass moving up, or Western Kentucky or any number of others. App and GSU are the ONLY schools with the ONLY fans that constantly use their current peers are the reason for the moveup.

It's about the holier than thou image, and that's it.

[Saint3333]

Yep GP you got us there no other fanbase has ever said that about their conference members. xbawlingx

[GlassOnion]

And there you have it folks. That's why you get so many people with negative comments on a moveup. Because, it's not about better competition. It's not about money. It's about the perception of some people, in putting down the current peer schools, like in the above statement.

And despite UMass moving up, or Western Kentucky or any number of others. App and GSU are the ONLY schools with the ONLY fans that constantly use their current peers are the reason for the moveup.

It's about the holier than thou image, and that's it.

And why would anyone be excited to play elon more than memphis? When it comes to athletics, Memphis > elon, CUSA > Socon. Memphis will travel better than elon, even thought they are 5 hours further, ECU, and Marshall alone will bring more travelling fans than a season's worth of Socon competition. ASU has more in common with the CUSA schools than the Socon schools, there is no putting down, it just is what it is: Bigger money, Better competition, More excitement, More opportunity for ASU to grow.

PS, elon is not a peer school, we have nothing in common with elon. Elon is private, and limited in its potential, App is going 20,000+ in enrollment. The two schools are on opposite sides of the spectrum, and THAT is the point.

[cmaxwellgsu]

And there you have it folks. That's why you get so many people with negative comments on a moveup. Because, it's not about better competition. It's not about money. It's about the perception of some people, in putting down the current peer schools, like in the above statement.

And despite UMass moving up, or Western Kentucky or any number of others. App and GSU are the ONLY schools with the ONLY fans that constantly use their current peers are the reason for the moveup.

It's about the holier than thou image, and that's it.

It has more to do with being former rivals with some of the CUSA and Sunbelt teams than it does with some of the newer schools in the SoCon. Some of those schools also have a lot more in common with us and App than Elon or Samford. I think our fans resent the fact that we're the only public schools in a small private school league rather than individual private schools.

[Smitty]

To be honest I don't know too many people that care about what the other schools are...

[ThompsonThe]

And there you have it folks. That's why you get so many people with negative comments on a moveup. Because, it's not about better competition. It's not about money. It's about the perception of some people, in putting down the current peer schools, like in the above statement.

And despite UMass moving up, or Western Kentucky or any number of others. App and GSU are the ONLY schools with the ONLY fans that constantly use their current peers are the reason for the moveup.

It's about the holier than thou image, and that's it.

Holier than thou, or not holier than thou....I never wanted to play Elon in football again, ever. Every year there are two or three cheap shots that their football players do trying to hurt the other teams players. If your school believes that playing by the rules is too hard to have a shot at winning, then we shouldn't be playing.

[Rekdiver]

When I see the conference hoop tourney in Chatty with a few thousand in the stands that's all the reason I need to see to move UP. I do believe we are holding all our teams back staying in the SoCon.