Holy Cross in favor of PL schollys!

[aceinthehole]

Despite initial disappointment, Holy Cross athletic director Dick Regan remains optimistic. "I was obviously disappointed that the league did not approve scholarships. Any coach or athletic director would rather have scholarships then not have them. I was surprised by the outcome and had expected that scholarships would be permissible at some level. Because of the cost ramifications, I did not expect the league to approve 60 scholarships but I had expected a compromise somewhere between 40 and 50." Mr. Regan believes that not only do stronger academics not take away from prospective student-athletes, but they even make for a better student athlete. "I do not think that one has to choose between high graduation rates and great athletes. It has been demonstrated time and time again that it is possible to do both. We've been doing that for years in basketball. There is even a school of thought that holds that if you have athletic scholarships, you can attract a stronger student. That does not always happen, but it is possible."
http://www.thehccrusader.com/sports/patriot-league-members-remain-silent-on-future-of-football-scholarships-1.1973932

[Bogus Megapardus]

No, Dick Regan is in favor of scholarships, not Holy Cross. Every coach and AD in the Patriot, when asked, has said the same thing, including those at Lafayette. Ditto for Ivy. But the Patriot is a council of presidents, not athletic directors. Regan doesn't get a vote.

Fr. McFarland, who does vote, said:

"Those of us who were at the Patriot League agreed on a common statement and that we would not comment further on the meeting. I intend to keep that commitment." He went on to say, "I can tell you this: 1. The Patriot League schools care about the league and are committed to continuing it. I do not see that the league is threatened. 2. We are doing whatever we reasonably can to support our football program and keep it competitive. We are proud of what our coaches and players have accomplished. 3. The cost of going to the full complement of scholarships in football is a serious concern for some schools, including Holy Cross."

[Franks Tanks]

http://www.thehccrusader.com/sports/patriot-league-members-remain-silent-on-future-of-football-scholarships-1.1973932

It doesn't matter what Dick Regan, Joe Sterrett, Bruce McCutcheon, or Roach think. The decision lies with the school Presidents and their BOT's. Holy Cross will be getting a new President soon so it will be interesting what his position would be.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fr. McFarland, who does vote, said:

"Those of us who were at the Patriot League agreed on a common statement and that we would not comment further on the meeting. I intend to keep that commitment." He went on to say, "I can tell you this: 1. The Patriot League schools care about the league and are committed to continuing it. I do not see that the league is threatened....

And that is the entire problem. The Patriot League presidents do not see Fordham's departure as a threat to the league. Ironically, that may be exactly why the league falls apart.

[aceinthehole]

And that is the entire problem. The Patriot League presidents do not see Fordham's departure as a threat to the league. Ironically, that may be exactly why the league falls apart.

LFN,

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate for a minute - but what if Fordham's threats to leave are just that - a threat not likely to happen.

What happens if Fordham is satisfied with its current arrangement with the PL (affiliate membership, full PL scheduling, allow 63 scholarships, bowl-counter eligible, not eligible for league AQ or awards)?

This "limbo" could go on for years, if it is benefical to both sides.

[DFW HOYA]

And that is the entire problem. The Patriot League presidents do not see Fordham's departure as a threat to the league. Ironically, that may be exactly why the league falls apart.

The PL would hang on if Fordham gave notice this summer. It could not survive if Colgate followed them out the door.

[jcitybone]

There really is no way to interpret these sentences: " I was surprised by the outcome and had expected that scholarships would be permissible at some level. Because of the cost ramifications, I did not expect the league to approve 60 scholarships but I had expected a compromise somewhere between 40 and 50." other than to mean that HC went into the meeting supporting the 40 to 50 compromise. Do you think Regan would have been surprised and expected the 40/50 compromise if HC was an absolute "no" vote? McFarland did not contradict this when he said: "The cost of going to the full complement of scholarships in football is a serious concern for some schools, including Holy Cross. The operative words "full complement."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There really is no way to interpret these sentences: " I was surprised by the outcome and had expected that scholarships would be permissible at some level. Because of the cost ramifications, I did not expect the league to approve 60 scholarships but I had expected a compromise somewhere between 40 and 50." other than to mean that HC went into the meeting supporting the 40 to 50 compromise. Do you think Regan would have been surprised and expected the 40/50 compromise if HC was an absolute "no" vote? McFarland did not contradict this when he said: "The cost of going to the full complement of scholarships in football is a serious concern for some schools, including Holy Cross. The operative words "full complement."

It took me a minute, but I see what you mean. Some are not opposed to football scholarships per se, but are unwilling or unable to sponsor sixty full scholarships. So, techincally, HC is "for" scholarships, but also "against" a "full complement".

The trouble with this interpretation is that this has to still be a face-saving exercise. If the compromise solution were so popular, why wasn't that the final conclusion by the presidents?

[jcitybone]

HC thought compromise would be popular, but it turned out not to be. Why is still unclear.

[breezy]

My evolving thesis on the outcome of the President's meeting is this. A compromise solution of 40-50 scholarships might -- and I emphasize the word "might" -- have created the possibilty that [1] Fordham would not have been satisfied and would have headed for the door to another league AND [2] Georgetown would have felt that the deck had become further stacked against it and would have looked to join a non-scholarship league. The result would be only 5 schools remaining and the end of the auto bid to the FCS playoffs, and perhaps destruction of the PL. So, to avoid this outcome, the Presidents opted for a two-year moratorium to see if anything would be different in December 2012, and got a commitment from everyone to hang tight. Frankly, I don't know what might be different in two years except for other possible developments (Colgate scholarships? Lehigh scholarships?) that would pose even more threats to the existence of the PL. I agree with those posters who have speculated that the PL's long-term existence as a football league is in serious jeopardy.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just prior to the vote it was the prevailing notion that the schools would arrive at some level of scholarship compromise. But as many here have pointed out, authorization of anything less than the full 57-63 scholarships really does not achieve any concrete, sustainable goal. Let's face it, all the Patriot schools could afford full scholarships. They simply have the balance the costs with other needs. The "philosophy" angle really has become an non-argument because all Patriot schools now award merit scholarships in sports other than football. So it's a matter of getting everyone comfortably up to speed at the same time if football scholarships are to be allowed. Given Weiss' statement, there really is no question that the Patriot heading back towards a full compliment of need-based equivalencies for everyone. Georgetown always has the option to increase its equivalencies without any chance in PL policy. Fordham, as it has demonstrated, will do whatever it wants regardless of the PL presidents' view.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown always has the option to increase its equivalencies without any chance in PL policy.

I'm not clear about this--doesn't every PL school have the option to increase equvalencies?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm not clear about this--doesn't every PL school have the option to increase equvalencies?

Yes. There are two associate members, Fordham and Georgetown. Fordham requires a change in PL policy to continue to participate in the league (and be eligible for the autobid). Georgetown remains without any change in league policy. Georgetown alone decides if it wishes to fund more than a handful of equivalencies, but its eligibility to remain an associate member is unquestioned and unchanged. Obviously, the league desires both to remain as associate members. (I'm sure the PL as a whole would like both to be full members but that's an entirely different story and one that's not on the table at the moment. I'd boot American U. in a nanosecond if there were any chance of this.)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Obviously, the league desires both to remain as associate members...

... but are unwilling to do anything to make Fordham want to stay.

I'm sure the League desires Richmond, William & Mary and Villanova to join the League in all sports, too. That doesn't mean that they'll actually do anything to have them join.

[Bogus Megapardus]

... but are unwilling to do anything to make Fordham want to stay.



Well, I'm not so sure the league is unwilling to do *anything* to help Fordham stay. I think the league already has taken steps in that direction. It's just unwilling to completely adapt to Fordham's present desires at the expense of other members.

[RichH2]

I read in one of these threads a theory which I believe fits our situation. The no decision was actually their decision to not lose either Fordham or GU now. Lets wait 2 more yrs , which we have under scheduling agreements, and hope the siuation improves or goes away altogether. In the mean while we'll loosen up some more need $$$ for the coaches so the ADs will shut up.

[Lafalum]

Frank T's public admission that Lafayette will go to 57-58 equivalencies tells us two things for sure, Lafayette is at significantly less than 58, and intends to get there by the end of two years at which time going to scholarships may be easier. Weis or no Lafayette and the rest of PL will be scholarship at the end of the two years IMHO because all other options are unattractive or will impact the donor poll. It was the donors who asked and got Weis' affirmation of support for the PL and Div1.

[aceinthehole]

Frank T's public admission that Lafayette will go to 57-58 equivalencies tells us two things for sure, Lafayette is at significantly less than 58, and intends to get there by the end of two years at which time going to scholarships may be easier. Weis or no Lafayette and the rest of PL will be scholarship at the end of the two years IMHO because all other options are unattractive or will impact the donor poll. It was the donors who asked and got Weis' affirmation of support for the PL and Div1.

So why couldn't they get the votes this past Decemeber to approve scholarships effective with the 2013 season? This would allow the message to be sent to recruits and possible expansion targets (Maine, UNH) that the PL will be full scholarship, but they need 2 more years of 'transition' for each program to get its house in order and plan for the future funding model.

[DFW HOYA]

Weis or no Lafayette and the rest of PL will be scholarship at the end of the two years IMHO because all other options are unattractive or will impact the donor poll.

Do you really think so?

There are a number of clues I think people are missing in this debate:

1. There are no expansion targets. None. Either they won't spend the money (Marist) or they won't commit to the AI (Maine, UNH).
2. If Fordham gets an offer from the CAA or even Big South, they're gone.
3. Colgate is not going to accept anything less than counter status, so a 40 grant limit is infeasible.
4. Georgetown doesn't have the revenue to add any scholarships. They like to play in the PL but at the current level.

At best, the PL is a six team confderation in 2013 ranging from 0-62 scholarships between the schools. At worst, they're six independents.

[Lafalum]

1. I think there is interest..... the AI is a problem. But geography fits.
2.Posible not likely given their basketball experience.
3.40 not now but in two years everyone else will be close, see Tanvani's statement. Fordham and Colgate will have a leg up.
4.Georgetown will stay with less than the full allotment as they do now so what's the difference??

There is a chance the whole thing breaks up but I think the PL serves the interests of the schools well even with football scholarships. Lafayette will fold. Whoever is president can't isolate the giving alumni base. The outcry from alumni which resulted in Weis's statement was a shot across the bow for any administration.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

1. There are no expansion targets. None. Either they won't spend the money (Marist) or they won't commit to the AI (Maine, UNH).


1. I think there is interest..... the AI is a problem. But geography fits.

There have been four schools in the last five years that have professed in some way to be interested in PL membership. One - Richmond - had an alumni mutiny that ultimately caused them to double down in what is now the CAA - and win a national championship. Another - Marist - seemed interested as a non-scholarship school, but has chosen the PFL and seems happier with than than whatever else the PL offers.

The other two - Northeastern and Hofstra - dropped football rather than even think about leaving CAA basketball.

The only other realistic expansion targets come with some change to the way the PL does business. There are no Division I schools offering football that wish to do so with an AI and need-based aid. There may be some that are willing to institute an AI along with scholarships, or an AI with true non-scholarship - but none with the current PL format.

[carney2]

The conventional wisdom says that the AI is a stumbling block. What, in your collective opinion, would be the fallout on this new members question in the League adopted a school by school rather than a League wide AI? In other words, bands based on a schools' current academic profile with the overall objective that the football squad be representative of the student body as a whole.

[Lafalum]

I thought that's it way worked now that each AI was relative to the current student body...am I wrong??? I thought that's what put Georgetown at a big disadvantage. Also it was a reason why schools that didn't compare academically were not a fit for the PL.

[RichH2]

Each school admits students according to its own criteria. The PL AI is a floor not a ceiling. Cannot admit as a fb player a kid under the minimum. School frre to admit him anyway just not s a fb player

[Lafalum]

So it is relative to the current student body

[MplsBison]

Each school admits students according to its own criteria. The PL AI is a floor not a ceiling. Cannot admit as a fb player a kid under the minimum. School frre to admit him anyway just not s a fb player

How does the PL handle true walkons (non-recruited) that are admitted by the school but for whatever reason do not meet the AI?

Does the team have to submit a roster each season for an AI compliance audit?

[Go...gate]

Do you really think so?

There are a number of clues I think people are missing in this debate:

1. There are no expansion targets. None. Either they won't spend the money (Marist) or they won't commit to the AI (Maine, UNH).
2. If Fordham gets an offer from the CAA or even Big South, they're gone.

3. Colgate is not going to accept anything less than counter status, so a 40 grant limit is infeasible.

4. Georgetown doesn't have the revenue to add any scholarships. They like to play in the PL but at the current level.

At best, the PL is a six team confderation in 2013 ranging from 0-62 scholarships between the schools. At worst, they're six independents.

Let's be candid here. It has become increasingly evident that Colgate feels strongly enough about this issue to pull its team out of the conference and become an Independent. Hopefully this will not be necessary, but those appear to be what the tea leaves say.

[carney2]

Let's be candid here. It has become increasingly evident that Colgate feels strongly enough about this issue to pull its team out of the conference and become an Independent. Hopefully this will not be necessary, but those appear to be what the tea leaves say.

Yet more "candid here," the AD wants scholarships; the football coach wants scholarships; the football alumni boosters want scholarships; BUT, just like Lehigh, there is, to the best of my knowledge, no firm indication that the people who will ultimately make this decision want scholarships. There is certainly no indication that they consider this an important enough issue to go to the mat for it. I'm not saying they don't and won't. Just sayin'.

Besides, and one more time, doesn't a lower number of scholarships PLUS an adequate number of equivalencies get a school to counter status?

And another besides, Colgate has a sticky issue. Will the adoption of football scholarships cause more alumni and other interested parties to make that daunting trip onto the tundra week after week? If not, and if the 'gaters say goodbye to the Patriot League, they may be thrust back in time to the days when it was primarily a road team to make this work. They're certainly not getting home and home with Syracuse or Navy. Would that be in the school's best interests?

[Go...gate]

Yet more "candid here," the AD wants scholarships; the football coach wants scholarships; the football alumni boosters want scholarships; BUT, just like Lehigh, there is, to the best of my knowledge, no firm indication that the people who will ultimately make this decision want scholarships. There is certainly no indication that they consider this an important enough issue to go to the mat for it. I'm not saying they don't and won't. Just sayin'.Besides, and one more time, doesn't a lower number of scholarships PLUS an adequate number of equivalencies get a school to counter status?

And another besides, Colgate has a sticky issue. Will the adoption of football scholarships cause more alumni and other interested parties to make that daunting trip onto the tundra week after week? If not, and if the 'gaters say goodbye to the Patriot League, they may be thrust back in time to the days when it was primarily a road team to make this work. They're certainly not getting home and home with Syracuse or Navy. Would that be in the school's best interests?

Carney2, it has been made clear that Colgate's President and Trustees are in favor of football scholarships. Moreover, the road game thing is not a big problem, as Colgate did this in all sports for years. With all due respect, Colgate is unique in this regard.

The attendance issue, IMO, is a red herring. When we played 2-3-4 home games they were legitimate and special on-campus events. I see no reason why that would happen again.

[Go...gate]

1. I think there is interest..... the AI is a problem. But geography fits.
2.Posible not likely given their basketball experience.
3.40 not now but in two years everyone else will be close, see Tanvani's statement. Fordham and Colgate will have a leg up.
4.Georgetown will stay with less than the full allotment as they do now so what's the difference??

There is a chance the whole thing breaks up but I think the PL serves the interests of the schools well even with football scholarships. Lafayette will fold. Whoever is president can't isolate the giving alumni base. The outcry from alumni which resulted in Weis's statement was a shot across the bow for any administration.

I hope you are right and that the league will find a way to stay together - that remains the ideal and the goal we should all be working for. But everybody has to work together.

[Lafalum]

The Weis statement is an indication that the line in the sand has already been partly washed away by alumni pressure. Weis has been president 6 years near the end of the average of 7-10 years of most college presidents. However, it's obvious his statement didn't just occur to him in the shower one morning!!

[carney2]

Carney2, it has been made clear that Colgate's President and Trustees are in favor of football scholarships.

Perhaps, and I take your word for this as a trusted source and someone much closer to the situation than anyone I know personally. That begs the second, and almost as important question: exactly how important is it to them? There is a world of difference between "in favor of" and "need," and there are a lot of stops between those two extremes. It's the difference between lukewarm and boiling. Do the Colgate decision makers consider this a life and death issue, something they are willing to blow the Patriot League up over and move not only the football program but their entire intercollegiate athletic structure into an uncertain future?

[Go...gate]

Perhaps, and I take your word for this as a trusted source and someone much closer to the situation than anyone I know personally. That begs the second, and almost as important question: exactly how important is it to them? There is a world of difference between "in favor of" and "need," and there are a lot of stops between those two extremes. It's the difference between lukewarm and boiling. Do the Colgate decision makers consider this a life and death issue, something they are willing to blow the Patriot League up over and move not only the football program but their entire intercollegiate athletic structure into an uncertain future?

I think it is very important to them because the alumni have been troubled by the increasing weakness of the league in football. Despite its size, Colgate has always taken its sports very seriously - and of all sports at Colgate, football is, and always will be, the flagship, with hockey second. The Trustees, and now the new President, are very aware of this. An entire constituency at Colgate nearly was disenfranchised two decades ago when the program was suffocated to near - hopeless proportions, and most of that constituency are still very much in the picture at Colgate - and are very concerned and very vocal that it must NEVER happen again. Of course Colgate would like to stay in the Patriot League - but if PL football is going to drift more in Georgetown's direction than Fordham's, Colgate could very well become an Independent again. Football means that much.

[DFW HOYA]

If PL football is going to drift more in Georgetown's direction than Fordham's, Colgate could very well become an Independent again. Football means that much.

There seems to be a lingering friction in Colgate quarters re: Georgetown football, from the angry comments expressed when Georgetown had to cancel its 2008 game to the comment in that Maroon Council e-mail on scholarships falsely claiming, among other things, "Georgetown ...could drop the program at any time."

For better or worse, Georgetown's position in the PL is much what the PL itself was envisioned back circa 1985--nonschoalrship football at a comparable level to the Ivies, and at peace that the I-A teams passed it by. Yes, Georgetown can and should do better than eight PL wins in 10 years, but it's underfunded and underattended. (Much like Colgate basketball.) Any potential PL expansion target only need study the last 10 years of Georgetown football, a team that won 63 games in the 1990's but only 28 in the 2000's, to understand the hill they faced.

But nothing suggests the rest of PL is drifting towards the... um, "fiscal restraint" that Georgetown employs. So even mentioning it is a red herring.

[MplsBison]

How does the PL handle true walkons (non-recruited) that are admitted by the school but for whatever reason do not meet the AI?

Does the team have to submit a roster each season for an AI compliance audit?

I guess my point here is that couldn't there be a legitimate "go-around" of the AI if a team started telling kids that would not qualify "apply to the school on your own, we'll make sure you get in, then come to the team on your own as a walkon".

How would the AI stop that?

[DFW HOYA]

I guess my point here is that couldn't there be a legitimate "go-around" of the AI if a team started telling kids that would not qualify "apply to the school on your own, we'll make sure you get in, then come to the team on your own as a walkon".
How would the AI stop that?

Because, at nearly all these schools, a coach can't "make sure" anyone get in. Also, schools must submit their overall rosters for AI review each year.

(As noted before: I'm not in favor of the AI approach--it's a deference to the Ivy League and little else. But it's the law of the PL and the full-time schools seem to support it.)

[MplsBison]

Because, at nearly all these schools, a coach can't "make sure" anyone get in. Also, schools must submit their overall rosters for AI review each year.

(As noted before: I'm not in favor of the AI approach--it's a deference to the Ivy League and little else. But it's the law of the PL and the full-time schools seem to support it.)

Stay with me - *hypothetically* if a person was admitted into a PL school on their own and then walked-on to the football team mid-season, would it be possible for that person to "go-around" the AI? Or would the team be docked after the fact once they found out that this player didn't meet AI requirements?

[Franks Tanks]

Stay with me - *hypothetically* if a person was admitted into a PL school on their own and then walked-on to the football team mid-season, would it be possible for that person to "go-around" the AI? Or would the team be docked after the fact once they found out that this player didn't meet AI requirements?


Hypothetically the alien that stole your brain will give it back at some point. Why do you care?

[CFBfan]

Stay with me - *hypothetically* if a person was admitted into a PL school on their own and then walked-on to the football team mid-season, would it be possible for that person to "go-around" the AI? Or would the team be docked after the fact once they found out that this player didn't meet AI requirements?

they would be thrown out of the league and the ncaa would force them to xcl ALL other sports for 25 years!!!
do you actualy sit around and think this stuff up??

[Bogus Megapardus]

Stay with me - *hypothetically* if a person was admitted into a PL school on their own and then walked-on to the football team mid-season, would it be possible for that person to "go-around" the AI? Or would the team be docked after the fact once they found out that this player didn't meet AI requirements?

Bottom line - it simply would be ungentlemanly either to conjure or to attempt to implement such a ruse. Believe it or not, we still abide these sort of self-defeating anachronisms up here.

That, and what Tanks said. Aliens are a b*tch, n'est–ce pas?

[MplsBison]

Hypothetically the alien that stole your brain will give it back at some point. Why do you care?

I want to know if the AI can be beaten. It's hard for me to believe that this wasn't already thought of, but none of you seem to be able to put it to bed - so maybe it has a slim hope.

It's not like the AI is something to be looked up to and guarded. It's not even on the same ethical plane as a "save the owls" fundraiser.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The AI stays put. It's not even on the table.

[Sader87]

So Holy Cross is giving football scholarships again? Cool....about freakin' time.

[DFW HOYA]

The AI stays put. It's not even on the table.

Devil's advocate here, but why does the PL cling to this when other I-AA academic peers (Richmond, W&M, Furman, Villanova, etc.) seem to recruit and graduate just as well without the artificial index standings? Other than the Ivy and PL, no other conference has adopted this in Division I, II or even III.

[Pard 82]

I want to know if the AI can be beaten. It's hard for me to believe that this wasn't already thought of, but none of you seem to be able to put it to bed - so maybe it has a slim hope.

It's not like the AI is something to be looked up to and guarded. It's not even on the same ethical plane as a "save the owls" fundraiser.
If you can get in on your own, without a coaches 'tip', then you likely already satisfy the AI, no?

[MplsBison]

Devil's advocate here, but why does the PL cling to this when other I-AA academic peers (Richmond, W&M, Furman, Villanova, etc.) seem to recruit and graduate just as well without the artificial index standings? Other than the Ivy and PL, no other conference has adopted this in Division I, II or even III.

DFW, nothing you can say is ever going to be able to convince a guy who cares about nothing other than 1) ensuring that Lafayette plays Ivy teams and 2) ensuring that Lafayette plays Lehigh.

Getting rid of the AI, no matter how logical, feasible or reasonable, only hurts the likelihood of those two objectives.

Thus - he'll do everything in his power to fight it, to undermine it and to blackball it.

[MplsBison]

If you can get in on your own, without a coaches 'tip', then you likely already satisfy the AI, no?

Ah...but see there you've just set the stage for the AI to fail. Exactly what I wanted to show.

Consider a high school player that does not have the grades for a PL admission. His grades are low enough that he is not recruited by DI schools, even though he will pass the DI clearinghouse.

Lets say that he applies for admission to a PL school anyway. Then lets say he's admitted for some reason. Doesn't matter why, make up whatever you want: perhaps a wealthy relative and booster of said PL school paid off the admissions dept to allow this person to be admitted under the guise of his own merits. This person then waits until after the roster has been submitted to join the team as a walk-on. He turns out to be a very good player who contributes greatly to a playoff run or even a national title.

So now you have a player who would not have qualified under the AI, but has slipped onto the team underneath the radar and has helped them win more games than they would have without him.


I agree that the scenario is unlikely because:

1) it's unlikely that a player with that much ability and academics to pass the DI clearinghouse would not be recruited by other programs that would offer a scholarship.

2) it's unlikely that a PL school would ever admit anyone that doesn't meet the strict academic requirements

However, these just make the scenario unlikely - not impossible.


And thus the fact that it is possible proves the point: the AI is not fully capable of stopping what it aims to stop.

I just made the AI fall flat on its face.

[Go...gate]

There seems to be a lingering friction in Colgate quarters re: Georgetown football, from the angry comments expressed when Georgetown had to cancel its 2008 game to the comment in that Maroon Council e-mail on scholarships falsely claiming, among other things, "Georgetown ...could drop the program at any time."

For better or worse, Georgetown's position in the PL is much what the PL itself was envisioned back circa 1985--nonschoalrship football at a comparable level to the Ivies, and at peace that the I-A teams passed it by. Yes, Georgetown can and should do better than eight PL wins in 10 years, but it's underfunded and underattended. (Much like Colgate basketball.) Any potential PL expansion target only need study the last 10 years of Georgetown football, a team that won 63 games in the 1990's but only 28 in the 2000's, to understand the hill they faced.

But nothing suggests the rest of PL is drifting towards the... um, "fiscal restraint" that Georgetown employs. So even mentioning it is a red herring.

I don't think that is what the PL envisioned itself as in 1985. Certainly Colgate did not.

As far as GU's program is concerned, you may see friction, but I surely don't. I very much want to see the day when you guys give your program a fair chance to compete and I hope that day is coming; so far it has not. Finally, as to the 2008 game - I thought GU did the right thing!

[Franks Tanks]

So Holy Cross is giving football scholarships again? Cool....about freakin' time.

It was a condition of joining the Big East.

[Seawolf97]

Let's be candid here. It has become increasingly evident that Colgate feels strongly enough about this issue to pull its team out of the conference and become an Independent. Hopefully this will not be necessary, but those appear to be what the tea leaves say.

Hence maybe the need for a new conference in the Northeast. I know this isnt beating a dead horse as much as dragging it to the glue factory. But a new all sports conference of State and private schools continues to make sense with football scholarships. The major conferences have been doing it for decades without a problem. Independent can be pure misery for scheduling and any playoff hopes.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hence maybe the need for a new conference in the Northeast. I know this isnt beating a dead horse as much as dragging it to the glue factory. But a new all sports conference of State and private schools continues to make sense with football scholarships. The major conferences have been doing it for decades without a problem. Independent can be pure misery for scheduling and any playoff hopes.

In other words, as already discussed, you predict the imminent demise of the entire Patriot league in all sports - because that's what happens if Colgate pulls its football program. A fairly dramatic and confident position for Colgate to take, knowing that they'll likely not see a (former) Patriot or Ivy team in any sport for quite a while. Those'll be some long, long bus trips down south.

It may well we worth it to them, though.

[MplsBison]

In other words, as already discussed, you predict the imminent demise of the entire Patriot league in all sports - because that's what happens if Colgate pulls its football program. A fairly dramatic and confident position for Colgate to take, knowing that they'll likely not see a (former) Patriot or Ivy team in any sport for quite a while. Those'll be some long, long bus trips down south.

It may well we worth it to them, though.

Colgate would only pull its football program from the PL if the PL voted to discontinue the football conference + the automatic vote to allow members to play football in another conference.

In that case the PL would exist as it does today for all other sports (ie, the football teams minus Fordham and Gtown and including Army, Navy and American).

xtwocentsx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm impressed, MplsBison. You sure do know more about the internal operation of the Patriot League than anyone else here. For a long time, for instance, I actually thought that the Patriot League started out as a football-only conference later expanded to include all sports - not the other way around - and as such its primary focus was on football. Silly me.

[carney2]

In other words, as already discussed, you predict the imminent demise of the entire Patriot league in all sports - because that's what happens if Colgate pulls its football program. A fairly dramatic and confident position for Colgate to take, knowing that they'll likely not see a (former) Patriot or Ivy team in any sport for quite a while. Those'll be some long, long bus trips down south.

It may well we worth it to them, though.

Yeah, good times. But wait, they could join the CAA. No problems, just send them a note saying the Raiders are on the way, clear some spots on the schedule. No problem - ODU, JMU, W&M can't wait for those basketball, swimming, volleyball trips into Hamilton during a blizzard.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yeah, good times. But wait, they could join the CAA. No problems, just send them a note saying the Raiders are on the way, clear some spots on the schedule. No problem - ODU, JMU, W&M can't wait for those basketball, swimming, volleyball trips into Hamilton during a blizzard.

That's easily solved. America East in all sports, and the CAA in football, just like Maine and UNH. It allows them to keep their hockey team in the ECAC, and their membership is already used to dealing with blizzards.

[DFW HOYA]

In other words, as already discussed, you predict the imminent demise of the entire Patriot league in all sports - because that's what happens if Colgate pulls its football program.

Doesn't have to be. All Colgate has to do is announce it's offering scholarships beginning in the fall of 2011, the PL puts them on Fordham-style ineligibility, and Lehigh probably follows suit.

At that point the PL has to decide whether it can get by limiting the conference title to four teams, throw in the towel altogether governing scholarships (with the inevitable arms race to follow at PL schools north of Washington D.C.), or just call it a day sponsoring football and wish the schools well in their future endeavors.

[Seawolf97]

In other words, as already discussed, you predict the imminent demise of the entire Patriot league in all sports - because that's what happens if Colgate pulls its football program. A fairly dramatic and confident position for Colgate to take, knowing that they'll likely not see a (former) Patriot or Ivy team in any sport for quite a while. Those'll be some long, long bus trips down south.

It may well we worth it to them, though.

It really depends on what the leadership at Colgate or Lehigh for that matter envisions for their football programs in 5 or 10 years. If they are content with the present and hope scholarship football ( full scholarship footbal) is coming they will stay. The CAA/AE is one possible option to move up. Many thought SBU would fail when we left the NEC after 2006. But we have survived and grown and will continue to grow. The Big South isnt our final destination but it has been a step in the right direction. It will be interesting how this plays out for Fordham in the coming years and I'm sure folks at Colgate will be watching.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Doesn't have to be. All Colgate has to do is announce it's offering scholarships beginning in the fall of 2011, the PL puts them on Fordham-style ineligibility . . .



Not the same thing. Fordham was an associate member. Colgate *must* participate in all sports if offered by the league. If Colgate offers merit aid in football, they're out, and the league dissolves. Bully on them if they think they can pull it off, but there will be repercussions, I'm sure.

The better alternative is to follow the Lafayette plan - wait two years for everyone to ramp up to full equivalencies, then authorize, say, 40 scholarships. Schools may add equivalencies to bring themselves up to 57-63 if they wish, and the deal is done.

Lafayette is a complete jackass for forcing this, you say? Well, there, you're right, I suppose. We're the smallest school by far. But you all know full well that Lafayette has the $$$ to make it happen, and it will. Then, the PL schools will be able to choose OOC games vs Army, Navy, Rutgers, Temple, etc., or vs. Ivy, as they see fit.

I don't speak for Colgate, of course, but I just think that this will work out better for them in the long run.

Besides, I really can't envision those AE or CAA basketball games in Hamilton. Uck. The Pards literally sleepwalked their through that last one the other night. Plus, soccer leaves much to be desired, fields hockey is a joke and they don't even play baseball at all.

For some odd reason, then, I think Colgate finds comfort in the PL. But that's just a guess.

[aceinthehole]

The better alternative is to follow the Lafayette plan - wait two years for everyone to ramp up to full equivalencies, then authorize, say, 40 scholarships. Schools may add equivalencies to bring themselves up to 57-63 if they wish, and the deal is done.

But that's not the Lafayette plan - because if it was, Lafayette would have proposed a vote to authorize 40+ scholarships for the 2013 season at the PL meeting on the specific topic of football this past December.

The 'Lafayette plan' is the status quo, period. I don't judge that as a "good" or "bad" thing, but it is what it is - no change, no decision.

[Go...gate]

In other words, as already discussed, you predict the imminent demise of the entire Patriot league in all sports - because that's what happens if Colgate pulls its football program. A fairly dramatic and confident position for Colgate to take, knowing that they'll likely not see a (former) Patriot or Ivy team in any sport for quite a while. Those'll be some long, long bus trips down south.

It may well we worth it to them, though.

Doubtful.

[MplsBison]

I'm impressed, MplsBison. You sure do know more about the internal operation of the Patriot League than anyone else here. For a long time, for instance, I actually thought that the Patriot League started out as a football-only conference later expanded to include all sports - not the other way around - and as such its primary focus was on football. Silly me.

So what? 25 years is a long time, things have changed. For the better I might add. Fordham did the correct thing, hopefully Colgate and Lehigh will not bow down to the PL's flimsy ideology and will force the issue.

Only two outcomes are possible:

A) the PL caves and allows the football teams to implement schoolarships at their own rates

B) the PL dissolves football as a sponsored sport and votes to allow members of the conference to play football in other conferences.


Either scenario would be acceptable in my book because I know in scenario A there will be at least 3 of the current PL schools that will ramp up to near max scholarships right away. Good for them and I hope they pound the schools too stubborn to do so. Because it is just stubbornness and nothing else.

Scenario B of course is fine too - those three PL schools that take football seriously will join ranks with the FCS state flagship public schools in the NE to form a new league.

[DFW HOYA]

Either scenario would be acceptable in my book because I know in scenario A there will be at least 3 of the current PL schools that will ramp up to near max scholarships right away. Good for them and I hope they pound the schools too stubborn to do so.

That's a generalization. Each school has specific issues that limit (or in some cases, preclude) 60 athletic scholarships.


For Lafayette, there's a Title IX hurdle to overcome; surprisingly, I think they're the most likely of the four remaining schools to adopt full scholarships as their alumni are more than willing to carry the load to make it happen.
For Holy Cross, there is the money but not the will. The school's president favors the status quo.
For Bucknell, there is the will but not the money--Bucknell traditionally lags in the PL on funding and will be hard pressed to spend at a rate comparable to Colgate of Fordham.
At Georgetown, well...it's back to money. Adding enough grants to ramp up football and satisfy Title IX is an additional $5-6 million annual expense for Georgetown versus $1-1.5M at the PL schools above. For a University that can't even finish building its home field (1,977 days and counting, by the way), that's asking a lot. Remember, the Georgetown men's basketball team doesn't even have a practice facility and if you had $6 million to spend, it'd probably start with that first. Sure, it could seek to add two or three a year, but how do you think they would fare against a 60-grant Colgate team?

[Lafalum]

The cost for Lafayette as confirmed by outside consultants is 750 k -1 mio. That is with taking care of the title IX problem. No problem, and even better if the male female ratio now at 53/47 moves a little more. Weis' stand is ideological with a minor cost element.
If the league goes scholarships Lafayette will be there. It represents less than 1/2 of one per cent of operating expenses.

[MplsBison]

That's a generalization. Each school has specific issues that limit (or in some cases, preclude) 60 athletic scholarships.


For Lafayette, there's a Title IX hurdle to overcome; surprisingly, I think they're the most likely of the four remaining schools to adopt full scholarships as their alumni are more than willing to carry the load to make it happen.
For Holy Cross, there is the money but not the will. The school's president favors the status quo.
For Bucknell, there is the will but not the money--Bucknell traditionally lags in the PL on funding and will be hard pressed to spend at a rate comparable to Colgate of Fordham.
At Georgetown, well...it's back to money. Adding enough grants to ramp up football and satisfy Title IX is an additional $5-6 million annual expense for Georgetown versus $1-1.5M at the PL schools above. For a University that can't even finish building its home field (1,977 days and counting, by the way), that's asking a lot. Remember, the Georgetown men's basketball team doesn't even have a practice facility and if you had $6 million to spend, it'd probably start with that first. Sure, it could seek to add two or three a year, but how do you think they would fare against a 60-grant Colgate team?



Sorry DFW...something just doesn't add up.

How can Gtown be so expensive...yet be so poor? Do they just take those $40k/year tuition checks and gold plate the sidewalks? Are professors and admin at Gtown making 5x the rate as their counterparts at Ivy schools? And it's not like you're one of those micro liberal arts colleges, you have over 7k undergrads and over 8k grads (according to wikipedia).


If you trump card is going to be that Gtown sponsors more sports than anyone else - then don't. Cut the sports that don't matter.

[DFW HOYA]

Sorry DFW...something just doesn't add up. How can Gtown be so expensive...yet be so poor?

The university is highly leveraged. At its low point the bond rating dropped to BBB+.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20006-2004Aug20.html

[Go...gate]

Not the same thing. Fordham was an associate member. Colgate *must* participate in all sports if offered by the league. If Colgate offers merit aid in football, they're out, and the league dissolves. Bully on them if they think they can pull it off, but there will be repercussions, I'm sure.

The better alternative is to follow the Lafayette plan - wait two years for everyone to ramp up to full equivalencies, then authorize, say, 40 scholarships. Schools may add equivalencies to bring themselves up to 57-63 if they wish, and the deal is done.

Lafayette is a complete jackass for forcing this, you say? Well, there, you're right, I suppose. We're the smallest school by far. But you all know full well that Lafayette has the $$$ to make it happen, and it will. Then, the PL schools will be able to choose OOC games vs Army, Navy, Rutgers, Temple, etc., or vs. Ivy, as they see fit.

I don't speak for Colgate, of course, but I just think that this will work out better for them in the long run.

Besides, I really can't envision those AE or CAA basketball games in Hamilton. Uck. The Pards literally sleepwalked their through that last one the other night. Plus, soccer leaves much to be desired, fields hockey is a joke and they don't even play baseball at all.

For some odd reason, then, I think Colgate finds comfort in the PL. But that's just a guess.

Bogus, I always think well of your highly credible observations, as I do of Carney2's, which are also invariably well-reasoned. This is the first time I have been aware of such a "Lafayette Plan". Did someone in Easton float this? Is it the subject of back-channel discussions? Because it might work. What happened in December, however, was a "tabling" of the scholarship issue which, for parliamentary and practical purposes, killed that issue.

[Go...gate]

The university is highly leveraged. At its low point the bond rating dropped to BBB+.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20006-2004Aug20.html

Geez.....who the Hell managed GU's endowment during some very favorable periods in the last thirty years? Did they get hammered in the meltdown? Prep schools like Peddie and Lawrenceville have comparable endowments and better bond ratings.

[Go...gate]

So what? 25 years is a long time, things have changed. For the better I might add. Fordham did the correct thing, hopefully Colgate and Lehigh will not bow down to the PL's flimsy ideology and will force the issue.

Only two outcomes are possible:

A) the PL caves and allows the football teams to implement schoolarships at their own rates

B) the PL dissolves football as a sponsored sport and votes to allow members of the conference to play football in other conferences.

Either scenario would be acceptable in my book because I know in scenario A there will be at least 3 of the current PL schools that will ramp up to near max scholarships right away. Good for them and I hope they pound the schools too stubborn to do so. Because it is just stubbornness and nothing else.

Scenario B of course is fine too - those three PL schools that take football seriously will join ranks with the FCS state flagship public schools in the NE to form a new league.

I don't care for Scenario B, because I have been a supporter of the PL since the beginning, but it could very well happen.

[Go...gate]

The cost for Lafayette as confirmed by outside consultants is 750 k -1 mio. That is with taking care of the title IX problem. No problem, and even better if the male female ratio now at 53/47 moves a little more. Weis' stand is ideological with a minor cost element.
If the league goes scholarships Lafayette will be there. It represents less than 1/2 of one per cent of operating expenses.

This is encouraging.

[Franks Tanks]

This is encouraging.

Lafalum's comments are in line with the consensus of Lafayette fans. We have batted around a ton of scenario's and I think most of us agree that his proposed outcome is the most likley. Weiss doesn't give us much information, but he has confirmed several times that Lafayette is committed to remaining in the PL and having a competitive sports program within the league. Logic dictates that if the usual suspects add scholarships or demand scholarships that Lafayette will fall in line after a some complaining. I believe Weiss's comments were to appease the faculty, while also giving the alumni a shot in the arm a bit and letting them know that we will have to help pay for this. I understand the whole scenario is very strange for outsiders, but this is distorted politics as usual at Lafayette.

[Lafalum]

This is encouraging.

That is why Weis' recent statement with the approval of the BOT is important. There was enormous pressure to release that statement confirming support for the PL and Div 1. Any backtrack on that because the league goes scholarships or any other reason, would cause a huge problem for the BOT and anyone occupying president's office. Preserving the league and remaining in Div 1 comes ahead of any ideological position. That is clear.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This is the first time I have been aware of such a "Lafayette Plan". Did someone in Easton float this?

My remark was tongue-in-cheek. There really is no plan, of course. The "Lafayette Plan" simply is to make a last-minute announcement of the eve of the president's vote and then manage to put things off for two years. The "Lafayette Plan" just sounds better (to me) than some of the things other people have been calling it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The better alternative is to follow the Lafayette plan - wait two years for everyone to ramp up to full equivalencies, then authorize, say, 40 scholarships. Schools may add equivalencies to bring themselves up to 57-63 if they wish, and the deal is done.

To me, this simply should be considered the "roll the dice and pray Fordham doesn't leave" plan. Because this so-called plan STILL does not account for the fact that Fordham 1) already is offering scholarships now, and 2) that their plan is to offer 63.

The trouble with all the scripts with Lafayette being for/against scholarships and a hero for some "third way" on scholarships is Fordham's existence in the league. If Weiss indeed is against scholarships, but for them secretly - the head-scratching scenario that Lafayette fans appear to believe about their president - he could have agreed some sort of plan in December and possibly made some sort of accommodation for Fordham. He did not do so.

If Fordham were not a part of the equation, I could believe this John Kerry-esque fudge on this issue from Mr. Weiss. But kicking the ball to 2013 at best makes it more difficult for Fordham to remain, even if the rosiest of Lafayette-driven scenarios for scholarship limits come true. And I refuse to believe Mr. Weiss was so dim as to think that they could simply do this and Fordham would simply go along for the ride simply because they like Patriot League football so much.

[Bogus Megapardus]

To me, this simply should be considered the "roll the dice and pray Fordham doesn't leave" plan. Because this so-called plan STILL does not account for the fact that Fordham 1) already is offering scholarships now, and 2) that their plan is to offer 63.

The trouble with all the scripts with Lafayette being for/against scholarships and a hero for some "third way" on scholarships is Fordham's existence in the league. If Weiss indeed is against scholarships, but for them secretly - the head-scratching scenario that Lafayette fans appear to believe about their president - he could have agreed some sort of plan in December and possibly made some sort of accommodation for Fordham. He did not do so.

If Fordham were not a part of the equation, I could believe this John Kerry-esque fudge on this issue from Mr. Weiss. But kicking the ball to 2013 at best makes it more difficult for Fordham to remain, even if the rosiest of Lafayette-driven scenarios for scholarship limits come true. And I refuse to believe Mr. Weiss was so dim as to think that they could simply do this and Fordham would simply go along for the ride simply because they like Patriot League football so much.

Weiss either was caught off guard or he is engaging in political brinkmanship (or a combination of the two). I'm sure he studied the matter carefully but perhaps he was the subject of a last-minute, visceral assault by faculty interests, who probably did not study the matter carefully at all. No one knows, and, frankly, it doesn't matter at this point.

I tend to agree with DFW that Lafayette might be the least worrisome cog if Colgate & Lehigh announce they're joining Fordham with scholarships no matter what. Lafayette now has committed publicly to ramp up to 57-63 equivalencies so the jump to merit aid would not seem economically troublesome. Judging from recent events, though, it seems certain to me that Lafayette does not want to leave Holy Cross, Bucknell or Georgetown twisting in the wind. So, while I think Lafayette can and will go to scholarships if the league votes to do so, it will not split with the league for the purpose of granting scholarships.

For whatever reason, I just have more faith than some that the presidents, collectively, will work all this out. Remember that the commandants of both the U.S. Military Academy and the Naval Academy have a say in this as well. These are individuals who do not engage in actions frivolously and who seem less likely beholden to faculty interests at their institutions. I just hope Georgetown can wring some donations from its illustrious alumni to complete a nice facility, stay in the league, and remain competitive (as they were last season).

[carney2]

But that's not the Lafayette plan - because if it was, Lafayette would have proposed a vote to authorize 40+ scholarships for the 2013 season at the PL meeting on the specific topic of football this past December.

The 'Lafayette plan' is the status quo, period. I don't judge that as a "good" or "bad" thing, but it is what it is - no change, no decision.

Not true. I am closer to the situation than you and firmly believe that the Lafayette decision makers know exactly where they are in the flow of history here. Change is in the wind and they are going to have to get on board, whatever that means. The problems at Lafayette are, I guess, much the same as those at some other Patriot League schools, but I think at slightly elevated levels. Out of all of their problems - and you could name many - two seem to stand out to me:

1. A succession of weak, incompetent and/or compliant administrations over the past 30 years has greatly enhanced the power, both perceived and actual, of the inherently anti-athletic faculty and fellow travelers. I believe that this group carries more weight at Lafayette than at most other Patriot League institutions. They need to be schmoozed, wooed and placated into some sort of a "compromise." It will take time.

2. Lafayette's Title IX problems are extreme and are magnified by the school's small size. This translates into dollars and cents, not merely some politically correct ideological conflict. The administration is dealing with a shifting economy where it is feared that the old economic model for elite private institutions (higher tuition charges automatically make the school more desirable to a certain segment of the population) will no longer hold. How do you justify an additional $700,00-$1,500,000 per year ("informed" estimates vary) for athletics just to offer football scholarships when you are meeting resistance to your basic tuition charges from what was formerly your target audience, and you can only offset these costs with the possibility (there are no guarantees, especially as more and more FCS schools become buyers in this market) of an occasional FBS "money game?"

I really have no idea where President Dan Weiss stands on this personally. We have some published comments which are arguably confusing and even seemingly at odds with each other. I do know that I am happy not to be in his shoes as he walks this tightrope. It's a slow process. He needs time.

[RichH2]

I am a firm believer in any and all of the speculated scenarios. Without facts we are left with ambiguity fueled with desire. Perhaps the 2 year moratorium will serve, as the economy improves, to permit some schools to reach Fordham's level approx. with need aid. I sincerely wish for some sort of merit aid but I can no longer contiue agonizing over it. We must compete now and the the year after with what we have. Better for my peace of mind to concentrate on reality. Next up Sprng practice.

[MplsBison]

The university is highly leveraged. At its low point the bond rating dropped to BBB+.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20006-2004Aug20.html

What does 2004 have to do with today?

Sorry - you have not convinced me that Georgetown is too poor to afford at least 40 scholarships.

[Bogus Megapardus]

you have not convinced me . . . .



Somebody else take a turn here. Much to easy of a target. Who'd like it?

[DFW HOYA]

What does 2004 have to do with today? Sorry - you have not convinced me that Georgetown is too poor to afford at least 40 scholarships.

If you know finance (and maybe I presume this), institutions that carry excessive debt are often constrained in cash liquidity and the ability to finance new ventures (say, scholarships), that does not come from operating income. Because debt service is a major item on Georgetown's balance sheet, much of its cash must go to pay off debt instead of, say, grow. Its endowment returns less per student than any Ivy or Patriot school by multiples. For example, assuming a 5% disbursement from the endowment, the endowment returns per student at 14 Ivy and PL schools are as follows:

Princeton $94,777
Yale $71,819
Harvard $49,830
Dartmouth $25,038
Columbia $13,446
Brown $12,567
Lafayette $12,175
Penn $11,521
Colgate $10,821
Cornell $10,609
Holy Cross $9,265
Bucknell $6,819
Lehigh $6,714
Georgetown $3,294

I did not list Fordham because Fordham's financial aid policies differ from these schools. But to bring the subject back to topic, even if Georgetown devoted 100% of its endowment proceeds to scholarships, it would return roughly $3,300 per student each year, or about 6% of the cost of attendance...and that's before debt service. Realistically, it returns even less, since most college endowments are heavily restricted to directed giving to items such as faculty chairs or research. (For example, a $20 million endowment to the law school cannot be used for undergraduate financial aid, because there are fidiuciary relationships that ensure the gift goes to where it was intended.)


Your first response might be, "Charge more tuition!" Except that Georgetown is the fourth most expensive school in the nation already, because tuition must account for a higher % of costs than any other PL (or Ivy) school, as noted above. At $54,000 a year, Georgetown has reached a cost ceiling.
Your second response might be, "Accept more students!" Except that Georgetown is under a legal cap on enrollment by the city of Washington.
How about a third response, namely, "Cut men's sports!" Except that Georgetown's men's sports carry only about 60 scholarships out of nearly 400 students. Even if it wanted to (and it does not), Georgetown could not fund football scholarships in the ruins of, say, tennis or swimming.

The better answer is to raise money. A noble cause, but Georgetown's stated priority in its next capital campaign is need-based aid, and lots of it. It wants to create over 1,700 need-based grants of $25,000 each. Could some of those go football's way? Perhaps, but a full ride will still beat a $25,000 grant, and that's the quandary the coaches must face in recruiting.

[MplsBison]

If you know finance (and maybe I presume this), institutions that carry excessive debt are often constrained in cash liquidity and the ability to finance new ventures (say, scholarships), that does not come from operating income. Because debt service is a major item on Georgetown's balance sheet, much of its cash must go to pay off debt instead of, say, grow. Its endowment returns less per student than any Ivy or Patriot school by multiples. For example, assuming a 5% disbursement from the endowment, the endowment returns per student at 14 Ivy and PL schools are as follows:

Princeton $94,777
Yale $71,819
Harvard $49,830
Dartmouth $25,038
Columbia $13,446
Brown $12,567
Lafayette $12,175
Penn $11,521
Colgate $10,821
Cornell $10,609
Holy Cross $9,265
Bucknell $6,819
Lehigh $6,714
Georgetown $3,294

I did not list Fordham because Fordham's financial aid policies differ from these schools. But to bring the subject back to topic, even if Georgetown devoted 100% of its endowment proceeds to scholarships, it would return roughly $3,300 per student each year, or about 6% of the cost of attendance...and that's before debt service. Realistically, it returns even less, since most college endowments are heavily restricted to directed giving to items such as faculty chairs or research. (For example, a $20 million endowment to the law school cannot be used for undergraduate financial aid, because there are fidiuciary relationships that ensure the gift goes to where it was intended.)


Your first response might be, "Charge more tuition!" Except that Georgetown is the fourth most expensive school in the nation already, because tuition must account for a higher % of costs than any other PL (or Ivy) school, as noted above. At $54,000 a year, Georgetown has reached a cost ceiling.
Your second response might be, "Accept more students!" Except that Georgetown is under a legal cap on enrollment by the city of Washington.
How about a third response, namely, "Cut men's sports!" Except that Georgetown's men's sports carry only about 60 scholarships out of nearly 400 students. Even if it wanted to (and it does not), Georgetown could not fund football scholarships in the ruins of, say, tennis or swimming.

The better answer is to raise money. A noble cause, but Georgetown's stated priority in its next capital campaign is need-based aid, and lots of it. It wants to create over 1,700 need-based grants of $25,000 each. Could some of those go football's way? Perhaps, but a full ride will still beat a $25,000 grant, and that's the quandary the coaches must face in recruiting.

A well written response DFW (I expected nothing less).

But to boil your post down to one sentence, it still reads like the world's smallest violin playing: "Georgetown can't afford more athletic scholarships because we don't have an endowment set up to pay for them". Neither do 99.99% of NCAA schools. Stanford is the only one that comes to mind immediately, there might be others but not many.


You can't use the argument that "football doesn't bring in any revenue, so we can't afford to give it more money". Reality doesn't work in that direction. You can only make it work the other way around: "we have to give football more money so it can be more competitive before fans will come to the games and thus game revenues increase".


Some how, some way, by hook or crook, you've got to get football more money. It'd be great if you could set up a football aid endowment, good luck with that. But too many other urban, private schools have figured out a way to support football with institutional aid for Gtown to deny that method outright.

Make it work.

[Bogus Megapardus]

A well written response DFW (I expected nothing less).

But to boil your post down to one sentence, it still reads like the world's smallest violin playing: "Georgetown can't afford more athletic scholarships because we don't have an endowment set up to pay for them". Neither do 99.99% of NCAA schools. Stanford is the only one that comes to mind immediately, there might be others but not many.


You can't use the argument that "football doesn't bring in any revenue, so we can't afford to give it more money". Reality doesn't work in that direction. You can only make it work the other way around: "we have to give football more money so it can be more competitive before fans will come to the games and thus game revenues increase".


Some how, some way, by hook or crook, you've got to get football more money. It'd be great if you could set up a football aid endowment, good luck with that. But too many other urban, private schools have figured out a way to support football with institutional aid for Gtown to deny that method outright.

Make it work.

Perhaps it sounds like beating a dead horse, but part of the appeal of a place such as Georgetown is that is does sponsor many different sports. Prospective students who aren't cut out for football might excel at squash or fencing or rowing or even water polo. Georgetown is a place where such a student can continue his or her passion knowing that their sport is supported at a reasonable level with intercollegiate competition against institutions with competitive talent.

Georgetown also faces some unusual problems. For one, it is a small, tightly-packed, oppressively regulated urban campus in an area with ridiculously high property values and high taxes. Expansion is impossible unless one looks at off-campus sites in suburban Virginia or Maryland. Georgetown also has a hospital on campus that serves everyone, including many underprivileged people. It represents a substantial drain on resources. The University also serves a unique public function as a center for political, economic and government thought - again, at considerable expense.

Like all Patriot schools, Georgetown knows that football will never be a profit center. It's not intended to be, and that's not why Georgetown sponsors football. Football is intended simply as an outlet for student and alumni activity. Without question, Georgetown needs football facilities befitting of the University and its history. But the financial backing simply won't come from fees or higher tuition, from the endowment, or from general revenues. It must come, if at all, from private donations.

Some at Georgetown compare its football facilities to league members Lafayette and Lehigh, for example. But Lafayette already had a large, bowl-type facility in place, built in 1926. It took what it had and just renovated it very nicely. Lehigh took advantage of a spacious tract of land close to campus to build expansive sports facilities. Georgetown has neither option, and leasing an existing facility such as one of the professional sports stadia simply does not fit withing the institution's goals for football. Students should be able to walk to the game and alumni should be able to come to campus to engage in the many other activities sponsored by the institution in addition to, and complementary with, the football games. Keep in mind that Georgetown, unlike many institutions, doesn't *need* football to attract very high-caliber students. But there's certainly enough evidence that Georgetown *wants* football as a compliment to its other goals.

Students and alumni at Georgetown want to see Patriot and Ivy games, but they also want Georgetown to be competitive with regional schools like Richmond, Villanova and W&M. This means the alumni have to organize themselves and step up with the means to complete a prudent reconstruction of Multi-Sport Field with locker and weight facilities, on a scale befitting the urban setting of the campus. Nothing about it has to be glitzy or over-the top - just pleasant, attractive and functional.

My impression is that the Patriot presidents will bend - nearly to the breaking point - to keep Georgetown in the league, and we know Georgetown wants to be there. Georgetown football alumni and enthusiasts have to get moving and get creative, though, and find a way to create the environment for competitive FCS football without looking to the administration or to general revenues.

[MplsBison]

Perhaps it sounds like beating a dead horse, but part of the appeal of a place such as Georgetown is that is does sponsor many different sports. Prospective students who aren't cut out for football might excel at squash or fencing or rowing or even water polo. Georgetown is a place where such a student can continue his or her passion knowing that their sport is supported at a reasonable level with intercollegiate competition against institutions with competitive talent.

Georgetown also faces some unusual problems. For one, it is a small, tightly-packed, oppressively regulated urban campus in an area with ridiculously high property values and high taxes. Expansion is impossible unless one looks at off-campus sites in suburban Virginia or Maryland. Georgetown also has a hospital on campus that serves everyone, including many underprivileged people. It represents a substantial drain on resources. The University also serves a unique public function as a center for political, economic and government thought - again, at considerable expense.

Like all Patriot schools, Georgetown knows that football will never be a profit center. It's not intended to be, and that's not why Georgetown sponsors football. Football is intended simply as an outlet for student and alumni activity. Without question, Georgetown needs football facilities befitting of the University and its history. But the financial backing simply won't come from fees or higher tuition, from the endowment, or from general revenues. It must come, if at all, from private donations.

Some at Georgetown compare its football facilities to league members Lafayette and Lehigh, for example. But Lafayette already had a large, bowl-type facility in place, built in 1926. It took what it had and just renovated it very nicely. Lehigh took advantage of a spacious tract of land close to campus to build expansive sports facilities. Georgetown has neither option, and leasing an existing facility such as one of the professional sports stadia simply does not fit withing the institution's goals for football. Students should be able to walk to the game and alumni should be able to come to campus to engage in the many other activities sponsored by the institution in addition to, and complementary with, the football games. Keep in mind that Georgetown, unlike many institutions, doesn't *need* football to attract very high-caliber students. But there's certainly enough evidence that Georgetown *wants* football as a compliment to its other goals.

Students and alumni at Georgetown want to see Patriot and Ivy games, but they also want Georgetown to be competitive with regional schools like Richmond, Villanova and W&M. This means the alumni have to organize themselves and step up with the means to complete a prudent reconstruction of Multi-Sport Field with locker and weight facilities, on a scale befitting the urban setting of the campus. Nothing about it has to be glitzy or over-the top - just pleasant, attractive and functional.

My impression is that the Patriot presidents will bend - nearly to the breaking point - to keep Georgetown in the league, and we know Georgetown wants to be there. Georgetown football alumni and enthusiasts have to get moving and get creative, though, and find a way to create the environment for competitive FCS football without looking to the administration or to general revenues.

Facilities are an entirely different animal. Yes Gtown has facilities needs too - but I'm just after scholarships right now or even just more need-based grants, for football players.

I flat don't believe that Gtown can't find a way to make it work for at least 40 scholarships or 40 scholarship equivalencies of need-based grants. Don't believe it. Not for a school that takes in that much revenue.

Aid is the key primer. If they can get consistently more aid, up into the mid 40's to low 50's per year, then they've got a chance to be competitive nationally each year.

Then when they're competitive for a sustained period of time, the donations will start coming for better facilities and then it snowballs. But there has to be the impetus - and that's aid.


I think what it will have to come down to is this: given a hard line in the sand of A) meet the Patriot League mandate of 40 scholarships by year xxxx or B) move to another conference, go independent or drop football, the Gtown admin will have to choose A. They'll make it work.

[Bogus Megapardus]

the Gtown admin will have to choose A. They'll make it work.

I don't think the administration has any problem with it at all. Alumni donors are the ones who need to "make it work," however, in order for the administration to facilitate it. It's clear that Georgetown has more pressing requirements than football for general revenue and unrestricted endowment income. But alumni donations earmarked to football will beget football, notwithstanding the university's immediate financial condition.