Patriot League 2013

[DFW HOYA]

Which of these scenarios is most likely for the Patriot League entering the 2013 season, and why?

[Model Citizen]

Current membership. The Patriot League is all talk.

[Franks Tanks]

"Six non-scholarship schools, Fordham gone"

[aceinthehole]

"Six non-scholarship schools, Fordham gone"

+1

[MplsBison]

Disband the football conference. Those PL schools that want to be full (or near full) scholarship and contend for the FCS national title should be in a football conference with other teams that share that desire.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Disband the football conference. Those PL schools that want to be full (or near full) scholarship and contend for the FCS national title should be in a football conference with other teams that share that desire.

Where would they go? The current conference options in the area are the NEC, PFL, and CAA. The PFL is a non-starter, as that's even more non-scholarship than the Patriot League is. The NEC is limited scholarship only, and from what I've heard Fordham is dead set on going up to the full 63. The CAA would benefit from having a greater northern presence, but the CAA is also the most expensive conference to play in at the FCS level, which URI cited as one of their reasons for downgrading to the NEC, so if the PL presidents are edgy about offering scholarships at all because of potential cost issues, the CAA doesn't seem like a likely outlet.

[carney2]

Lots of pessimists in the voting booth. I voted for Expansion With Scholarships. The current logjam will be broken, and it won't take two years. I expect some saber rattling from one or more of the current football members (Colgate? Lehigh?) coupled with some behind the scene maneuvering by the service academies. The 4 antis, both staunch and leaning (Bucknell, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette), will fall in line with their own version of compliance under a pliable, do your own thing set of rules that will mirror the 1990s basketball solution. It will, initially at least, create the two tier league that DFW fears, but that is where we are headed. If either group can get away from Fordham's Lone Ranger strategy - the same one they used to their detriment with basketball scholarships - and get some coordinated effort, the scales will tip their way. Remember, with basketball scholarships it took Holy Cross AND Army to move things along.

[carney2]

Disband the football conference. Those PL schools that want to be full (or near full) scholarship and contend for the FCS national title should be in a football conference with other teams that share that desire.

And exactly where is that "football conference with other teams that share that desire." Some of you seem to think that it is merely a matter of having Fr. McShane at Fordham pick up the phone and call someone at, for instance, the CAA, and say "Put us on the schedule. We're coming in." As for Colgate and supposedly Lehigh, you seem to have the notion that this is a runaway freight train/life and death/gotta have it/cannot survive without it situation at these schools. Some of you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

[MplsBison]

Where would they go? The current conference options in the area are the NEC, PFL, and CAA. The PFL is a non-starter, as that's even more non-scholarship than the Patriot League is. The NEC is limited scholarship only, and from what I've heard Fordham is dead set on going up to the full 63. The CAA would benefit from having a greater northern presence, but the CAA is also the most expensive conference to play in at the FCS level, which URI cited as one of their reasons for downgrading to the NEC, so if the PL presidents are edgy about offering scholarships at all because of potential cost issues, the CAA doesn't seem like a likely outlet.

Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham can pair up with Maine and Albany and see if Albany and Central Conn will go with them and increase up to a minimum of 90% of 63 scholarships. I think they'd just need one more to get an auto-bid or maybe 7 is enough.

[LBPop]

I voted the most pessimistic scenario for Georgetown. Ever since I got involved with the program as a Dad I have had this nagging feeling that the Hoyas are headed to D-III. I have absolutely no basis for it other than seven years of promises unfullfilled. Trying to compete in a scholarship league would be a huge obstacle and the Hoyas haven't done much in an ostensibly even environment of "need based" aid.

[Bogus Megapardus]

What would the tally look like were the Patriot League presidents to decide to get together and vote on whether or not to discontinue sponsorship of a given sport - namely football? Who would be entitled to vote? Under the by-laws, how many votes would be needed? How would such a measure make it to the table?

Everyone is aware, I hope, that full members in the Patriot must play all sports within the League if that sport is offered by the League at the level played by the member institution. Army and Navy are excepted from football participation because the Patriot does not sponsor FBS football, and American University does not play football at all. Fordham may walk. Georgetown may walk. But Colgate and Lehigh may not otherwise play football elsewhere unless each resigns from the Patriot League in all sports, as provided in the by-laws to which each agreed, or unless the League is dissolved in its entirely.

[Fordham]

Are you certain about that, bogie? You may be right but it was always my understanding that if the league does not compete at the same level, including # of scholarships, the school actually can keep that sport in a different conference.

Maybe the PL has a tighter restriction than other conferences?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Are you certain about that, bogie? You may be right but it was always my understanding that if the league does not compete at the same level, including # of scholarships, the school actually can keep that sport in a different conference.

Maybe the PL has a tighter restriction than other conferences?

My understanding is that a PL full member must have all of its members compete in the League, if the League offers the sport at the level played. A member can't compete in a different Division I conference:


10. Intercollegiate Athletic Programs Requirements

. . . . .

E. If a regular member institution sponsors a sport for which the League conducts a championship or regular in-season competition, the member institution must participate in the League competition unless an exemption from participation has been approved in advance by a majority of the Council of Presidents. The following criteria for an exemption shall apply:

(1) An institution will be permitted to exempt no more than one sport from League competition;

(2) Withdrawal of the sport under consideration will not jeopardize the League’s automatic qualification or overall competitiveness;

(3) The institution will not align its program with another Division I conference;

(4) The competitive experience is determined to be undesirable for student athletes from other League institutions due to facility or other competitive
limitations at the institution requesting the waiver; and

(5) The commitment to gender equity at the institution and in the League is not compromised.

[MplsBison]

What would the tally look like were the Patriot League presidents to decide to get together and vote on whether or not to discontinue sponsorship of a given sport - namely football? Who would be entitled to vote? Under the by-laws, how many votes would be needed? How would such a measure make it to the table?

Everyone is aware, I hope, that full members in the Patriot must play all sports within the League if that sport is offered by the League at the level played by the member institution. Army and Navy are excepted from football participation because the Patriot does not sponsor FBS football, and American University does not play football at all. Fordham may walk. Georgetown may walk. But Colgate and Lehigh may not otherwise play football elsewhere unless each resigns from the Patriot League in all sports, as provided in the by-laws to which each agreed, or unless the League is dissolved in its entirely.

Obviously they would abolish such a silly rule when they voted to disband the football conference.

[Go...gate]

Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham can pair up with Maine and Albany and see if Albany and Central Conn will go with them and increase up to a minimum of 90% of 63 scholarships. I think they'd just need one more to get an auto-bid or maybe 7 is enough.

You may mean this 57-scholarship conference (is it 57 or 57.5 which is a "counter"?)

Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
UNH
Maine
Albany
Stony Brook

[UAalum72]

You may mean this 57-scholarship conference (is it 57 or 57.5 which is a "counter"?)

Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
UNH
Maine
Albany
Stony Brook

63 X 90% = 56.7

[Seawolf97]

I voted the most pessimistic scenario for Georgetown. Ever since I got involved with the program as a Dad I have had this nagging feeling that the Hoyas are headed to D-III. I have absolutely no basis for it other than seven years of promises unfullfilled. Trying to compete in a scholarship league would be a huge obstacle and the Hoyas haven't done much in an ostensibly even environment of "need based" aid.

I voted for six non scholarship schools and Fordham out. Georgetown will never go D-3 since basketball is the determining factor for D-1 sports and Hoyas hoops will never be D-3. Other than Fordham leaving - where I have no idea I see the PL as status quo to start the 2013 season. Fordham is between a rock and hardspot. No AQ bid for the playoffs, no new conference and being independent wont get an at large unless they run the table every season.

[MplsBison]

You may mean this 57-scholarship conference (is it 57 or 57.5 which is a "counter"?)

Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
UNH
Maine
Albany
Stony Brook

You read my mind and one-up'ed me! I forgot about Stony Brook and typed Albany twice when I meant to include New Hampshire. I imagine that the former PL schools would have a much easier time being with all state flagship universities on the public side.

As was already replied, the requirement to count as bowl-win for FBS schools is 90% of the FCS maximum and I think over a 2 year rolling period. But I may be making up the last part.

The only thing left in the equation is auto-bid status...is eight required? It'd be nice if Lafayette or another PL school would join the conference too - but they should maintain a hard rule that any member must offer 90% of the FCS max and I would add that they can not use financial need in the decision of how much scholarship to give a player, for good measure.

[MplsBison]

I voted for six non scholarship schools and Fordham out. Georgetown will never go D-3 since basketball is the determining factor for D-1 sports and Hoyas hoops will never be D-3. Other than Fordham leaving - where I have no idea I see the PL as status quo to start the 2013 season. Fordham is between a rock and hardspot. No AQ bid for the playoffs, no new conference and being independent wont get an at large unless they run the table every season.

Unless the Dayton rule is repealed and any current FCS school that doesn't offer X% of the FCS maximum scholarships has to move down, then G-town would move down.

Or if the NCAA made a defacto "Dayton Rule Division", DI-AAA if you will, and said that any school with DI hoops and a varsity football team that offers less than X% of the FCS max has to play there - then obviously that's where G-town would be.


Either of the above scenarios would be acceptable to me.

[LUHawker]

Any talk of the PL disbanding is poppycock IMHO. This is the best collection of schools for the members and while there may be other more desirable affiliations for individual sports, in the aggregate, this grouping makes a lot of sense and the league has been around for ca 25 yrs. If a good solution to football can be crafted, the league will survive for quite some time.

[MplsBison]

Any talk of the PL disbanding is poppycock IMHO. This is the best collection of schools for the members and while there may be other more desirable affiliations for individual sports, in the aggregate, this grouping makes a lot of sense and the league has been around for ca 25 yrs. If a good solution to football can be crafted, the league will survive for quite some time.

No one is talking about the PL disbanding. The conference that includes Navy, Army and American U is a fantastic conference for bball, lacrosse, etc. It isn't going anywhere and it shouldn't.

There is no reason for such a conference to pursue continued sponsorship of varsity football, however, when two members play in the FBS, one member doesn't have football, three members want high scholarship football and the rest want no scholarships. There's no sense to that.

[the last indian]

The choice that I consider the most likely is not listed as a choice above. It is a two tiered league. Colgate, Lehigh and Fordham with scholarships possibly joined by Bucknell and/or Lafayette, but Holy Cross and Georgetown making due with student aid. Not stable longer term, but a make do compromise to get along. I don't think it will take until 2013 for this to happen, that the current compromise will not last for two years, IMO. My guess is that it may happen sooner and by 2013 the league will be looking for a more permanent solution that might include the service academies or one CAA school.

[Go...gate]

You read my mind and one-up'ed me! I forgot about Stony Brook and typed Albany twice when I meant to include New Hampshire. I imagine that the former PL schools would have a much easier time being with all state flagship universities on the public side.

As was already replied, the requirement to count as bowl-win for FBS schools is 90% of the FCS maximum and I think over a 2 year rolling period. But I may be making up the last part.

The only thing left in the equation is auto-bid status...is eight required? It'd be nice if Lafayette or another PL school would join the conference too - but they should maintain a hard rule that any member must offer 90% of the FCS max and I would add that they can not use financial need in the decision of how much scholarship to give a player, for good measure.

Six is the minumum for an autobid. Another thing - look at the geography. Eastern PA, NYC, Long Island, Albany, Central NY, New England. Minimal missed class time. Buses can be used. It is ideal for a football conference.

[MplsBison]

Six is the minumum for an autobid. Another thing - look at the geography. Eastern PA, NYC, Long Island, Albany, Central NY, New England. Minimal missed class time. Buses can be used. It is ideal for a football conference.

Another great reason to do it. It makes perfect sense.

And anyone who says that Colgate, Fordham and Lehigh would then be forced to exit the PL due to league rules is grasping at straws to keep the football conference together.

Any vote to disband the football conference is automatically coupled with a vote to nullify that rule.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Another great reason to do it. It makes perfect sense.

And anyone who says that Colgate, Fordham and Lehigh would then be forced to exit the PL due to league rules is grasping at straws to keep the football conference together.

Any vote to disband the football conference is automatically coupled with a vote to nullify that rule.

Fordham, as an associate PL member for football only, can leave the League with impunity at any time it chooses to do so. Oddly and inexplicably, it has chosen not to do so. The people running that place must be really, really stupid, right MplsBison?

And upon more meticulous perusal of the Patriot League by-laws, I now must subscribe to your conclusion - it's clear to me that 2/8 of the voting members have the authority to alter the participation rules for all, to their liking.

Damn, I shoulda paid more attention in school.

[Seawolf97]

You may mean this 57-scholarship conference (is it 57 or 57.5 which is a "counter"?)

Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
UNH
Maine
Albany
Stony Brook

This would be an interesting conference. Top of the line private and state schools all within easy travel distance, all in the Northeast. Makes too much sense-lol!

[MplsBison]

Fordham, as an associate PL member for football only, can leave the League with impunity at any time it chooses to do so. Oddly and inexplicably, it has chosen not to do so. The people running that place must be really, really stupid, right MplsBison?

And upon more meticulous perusal of the Patriot League by-laws, I now must subscribe to your conclusion - it's clear to me that 2/8 of the voting members have the authority to alter the participation rules for all, to their liking.

Damn, I shoulda paid more attention in school.

Oh wow - one mistake automatically invalidates the entire argument? You wish.

Here's the argument that is correct and that you hate (because you know it's correct and there's nothing you can do to stop it from killing your football conference):

If enough of the current PL members vote to disband the football conference (and by enough, I mean by whatever majority is required and by whichever members have the right to participate in such vote) then they will automatically also vote to abolish the rule preventing members from playing in other football conferences.


It so obvious it doesn't really need to be said, except to nullify misinformation being propagated by a few disgruntled PL fans who are angry over the pending loss of the PL football conference. Obviously, and beyond doubt, if a conference is going to no longer sponsor a NCAA varsity sport that its member athletic departments still field a varsity team for, it *has* to allow them to play that sport in a different conference.

[Bogus Megapardus]

If enough of the current PL members vote to disband the football conference (and by enough, I mean by whatever majority is required and by whichever members have the right to participate in such vote) then they will automatically also vote to abolish the rule preventing members from playing in other football conferences.

It so obvious it doesn't really need to be said, except to nullify misinformation being propagated by a few disgruntled PL fans who are angry over the pending loss of the PL football conference. Obviously, and beyond doubt, if a conference is going to no longer sponsor a NCAA varsity sport that its member athletic departments still field a varsity team for, it *has* to allow them to play that sport in a different conference.

I'm guessing portions of that little diatribe probably make sense to you, in an odd sort of way. But here's where I agree with you completely - if the members of the Patriot League all vote not to have a Patriot League any longer, they wont.

And since you unquestionably think they shouldn't - well, I'll let them know you said so. That ought to be all the persuasion they need.

Have a nice day, sir.

[Go...gate]

Bogus, happy to read today's release from LC Prexy Weiss re-affirming LC's commitment to Division I and the Patriot League.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogus, happy to read today's release from LC Prexy Weiss re-affirming LC's commitment to Division I and the Patriot League.

From President Weiss' Statement on Athletics (http://www.goleopards.com/genrel/020411aai.html):


Lafayette derives immeasurable value, as well, from its affiliation with the Patriot League . . .

. . . as most of you know, the Council of Presidents voted to table for two years the proposal that merit scholarships be awarded in football . . . . While I fully accept the fact that reasonable people can disagree about the merits of the outcome, it is important that everyone understand that the League presidents studied the issue thoughtfully and thoroughly before reaching their decision . . . .

. . . I believe that Lafayette is enormously fortunate to belong to the Patriot League. I remain steadfast in my commitment to the League and to the College's continued involvement in intercollegiate sports at the Division I level, and I look forward to working closely with the other presidents as we continue to advance our shared vision.


This unquestionably ends any speculation or suggestion of Lafayette participating in anything other than Division I athletics and Patriot League football. I did my best to let them know that MplsBison was really, really sure that Lafayette didn't belong there, but I guess that's the way things go.

Maybe MplsBison could find another college he has never seen and knows nothing about to pester, rankle and ignorantly comment upon. There are easier targets out there, you know.

[MplsBison]

The fact is that the PL football conference and the PL for the rest of the sports really are two, separate entities. The idea that they can't be pried apart is ... well, bogus.

It's very plausible that the comments made in the second paragraph from Weiss are really referring the to the Patriot League as a DI basketball conference (and the rest of the non-football sports that it sponsors). It's perfectly reasonable that he was referring to it in that sense and not that it automatically meant that he supported the PL football conference.

Only people who think that any reference to the PL must automatically be converted into a reference for a single entity conference for both football and non-football would ignore that possibility.

[MplsBison]

I'm guessing portions of that little diatribe probably make sense to you, in an odd sort of way. But here's where I agree with you completely - if the members of the Patriot League all vote not to have a Patriot League any longer, they wont.

And since you unquestionably think they shouldn't - well, I'll let them know you said so. That ought to be all the persuasion they need.

Have a nice day, sir.

Here is the correct statement: "if the members of the Patriot League all vote not to have a Patriot League football conference any longer, they wont."

I agree.

Not only that, but they'll also vote to allow members of the Patriot League to place their varsity football teams in other football conferences.

[MplsBison]

And just in case you actually are that naive BM (though I highly doubt it), football conferences and conferences for the rest of the sports need not be the exact same entity.

I actually think in the future that we're going to see more of the separate entities in college athletics - sort of like how ice hockey is now.

The cost structures and scheduling logistics for football are completely different than every other NCAA sport. Hence why a school like Notre Dame can exist just fine as an independent in football, but then they need a conference like the Big East for the rest of the sports.


It's really not such a bad thing at all...and I don't get why you're so desperately grasping to the concept of a single entity for PL football and the rest of the PL. If anything, the Lafayette football team going to a new conference might be a great thing. You never know until you try.