An Update on Lafayette's President, Dan Weiss

[carney2]

When last we encountered the name Dan Weiss on this board he was seen as the embodiment of evil. Based on his interview with the school newspaper, he had come out against football scholarships a few days before the mid-December Presidents' meeting. When the press release was issued saying that no decision had been reached and that it would be status quo for two more years, most fingers pointed at Weiss as something of a one man/one school arbiter of this process. Some, without evidence, stated that he threatened to pull Lafayette out of the Patriot League if scholarships were approved.

Since those first few days of disappointment and rage things have settled down and cooler heads have prevailed. What, then, has become of Dr. Weiss? Has he dedicated himself to an anti-athletics path that will take Lafayette God knows where and doom the Patriot League? There have been no pronouncements, nor is there likely to be. We have to make our judgments using bits and pieces of evidence. For instance:

Word has leaked out that Dr. Weiss addressed football recruits at a recent recruiting weekend. No details as to what he said are available, but it is common knowledge that his remarks were relevant, well delivered, and well received. Rumor has it that a very high percentage of recruits in attendance that day signed on the dotted line.

A Lafayette blogger named Bill Rappolt wrote a piece on scholarships. Mr. Rappolt normally blogs on field hockey which is a scholarship sport at Lafayette, so bear that in mind if you choose to read his well reasoned opinions:

http://blog.lehighvalleylive.com/lafayette-field-hockey/2011/01/if_wishes_were_horses.html

The point here is that Mr. Rappolt had some encouraging things to say about Dr. Weiss:

"Being president of a college is a difficult job as he tries to balance the interests of various constituencies and in an economic environment as challenging as we are in, his/her task is that much more frustrating. Based on my early conversations with Lafayette president Dan Weis, I believe he understands the culture that includes Lafayette/Lehigh games as part of its student's experience and the attraction athletics makes to unifying alumni. I also believe he understands that Lafayette's continuation in Division 1 is part of that package. The role of athletics in bonding an undergraduate community and stimulating a giving alumni base cannot be underestimated at a school like Lafayette. Given the events of the past month and talking with people who are decision makers, I believe that fact is well understood."

Finally, Dr. Weiss is a big supporter of Lafayette teams. He will frequently be seen at sporting events with his family. This week, for instance, he attended a women's basketball game in the middle of a major snow storm, and was seen sitting with Lafayette defensive coordinator, John Loose, and thoroughly enjoying himself.

We, in the Lafayette community will, I guess, continue to take issue with Dr. Weiss on many fronts, and will, unfortunately, use the anonymity of the internet to resort to clever name calling. I bring all of this to your attention however, because there are mixed signals and it is probably a little early to be placing all the blame on Weiss's shoulders, batching it up and stuffing it in a Danny Boy doll to be burned in effigy.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I have probably been easier on Dr. Weiss than most mostly because he supports our teams by showing up and enthusiastically cheering the players. Not only football of course, but lacrosse, basketball, field hockey, baseball, etc. Dr. Weiss is an athlete himself (an avid runner and marathoner) and he has never uttered a negative sentence about sports at Lafayette (compare the presidents at Hofstra and Boston University).

Weiss did, of course, publicly derail the football scholarship vote in December. Many of us expressed our outrage. Given time, who knows? It might turn out that his lone position kept the Patriot League intact. We don't know all the machinations that were going on behind the scenes or how much (or little) the the influence of our Ivy friends came to bear. If it means two years to come to come up with a concrete consensus plan that will leave our ancient Ivy rivalries in place (which I, for one, am not prepared to abandon) plus the ability to renew our members' many old-school FBS rivalries (Syracuse, UConn, Navy, Rutgers, Temple, Army, Boston College, Duke) I think it's worth the wait.

Remember, there is nothing whatsoever that prevents Patriot schools from gearing up to 57 equivalencies under the current need-based grant system. And let's remember that it was under Dr. Weiss' stewardship that Lafayette began to offer its first Division I scholarships in any sport (Lafayette now offers Basketball, Field Hockey and Soccer scholarships).

[Go...gate]

Well said, gentlemen. It is fair to say that Colgate is going through the same thing, though it is now confirmed from a reliable source (Maroon Council) that CU's President Herbst and Trustees did support a full complement of football scholarships.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Once again, I'm pretty selfish. I really could care less about manufactured statistics, hyperbolic ESPN promotion and network bravado. I just like to go to the games and see them in person. I do so often. And I think nothing compares to the tactics, sophistication and gamesmanship of a great Patriot/Ivy contest while you're at the game with your family and friends, live and in person.

Yes, we build our teams to beat them - and we do a respectable job of it, by the record. And yes - many of us attend the games along with alumni from opposing PL and Ivy schools and a whole lot of of us (including me) possess graduate degrees printed on the sheepskin of our Ivy opponent's charter, don't we? You know who you are, folks.

Watching and wishing for things on paper and in blogs, merely with the hope to be ranked higher by some nerd with a computer, seems wholly unproductive to me. Accessible Division I football in grand, timeless, alumni-built stadia with friend-and-foe-alike camaraderie alike keeps the college experience alive for me. That's how I enjoy college football.

I worked very, very hard to get into my college back in the day, and I labored continuously just to be able to stay there. I hold no fault with those who try to keep that spirit alive today.

There's something about all of us PL graduates today, I think, that make us glad that we did so. What, really, is compelling some of you to want this to change?

[Go...gate]

Once again, I'm pretty selfish. I really could care less about manufactured statistics, hyperbolic ESPN promotion and network bravado. I just like to go to the games and see them in person. I do so often. And I think nothing compares to the tactics, sophistication and gamesmanship of a great Patriot/Ivy contest while you're at the game with your family and friends, live and in person.

Yes, we build our teams to beat them - and we do a respectable job of it, by the record. And yes - many of us attend the games along with alumni from opposing PL and Ivy schools and a whole lot of of us (including me) possess graduate degrees printed on the sheepskin of our Ivy opponent's charter, don't we? You know who you are, folks.

Watching and wishing for things on paper and in blogs, merely with the hope to be ranked higher by some nerd with a computer, seems wholly unproductive to me. Accessible Division I football in grand, timeless, alumni-built stadia with friend-and-foe-alike camaraderie alike keeps the college experience alive for me. That's how I enjoy college football.

I worked very, very hard to get into my college back in the day, and I labored continuously just to be able to stay there. I hold no fault with those who try to keep that spirit alive today.

There's something about all of us PL graduates today, I think, that make us glad that we did so. What, really, is compelling some of you to want this to change?

Well said. I agree with everything you posted.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I do not think that Mr. Weiss kicks puppies in his off-hours. And I don't think he hates athletes.

I do know, however, that mere days before the scholarship talks were to begin, for some reason - it may be never known exactly why - he revealed to the world, possibly violating a confidentiality agreement in the process, his stance on scholarships and why he thought they were a bad idea. He revealed his hand at a time when virtually every other Patriot League president, past and future, did no such weighing in on a subject that has been under serious discussion for at least two years, and under casual conversation for many more. (Fr. Brooks of Holy Cross is the only other exception to my knowledge.)

For good measure, he also hinted that Lafayette might leave the Patriot League over the matter. "The College is very supportive of the Patriot League, but what specific actions we will take in light of this vote is not clear. It's unlikely that we'd simply carry on as we do and have the League all become scholarships if we aren't doing them," he told the student newspaper. What does this mean? Drop football? Leave the Patriot League? Offer scholarships in retaliation, even though he's opposed to them? What other possible explanation is there than these three - and which two are consistent with his philosophical stance?

While we may never know for sure, the end result was that scholarships were tabled for the next two years, almost certainly pushing Fordham out the door. Mr. Weiss' on-the-record stance is diametrically opposed to what Fordham has already done: offer football scholarships.

I think those down Leopard Way are severely underplaying the historic nature of his admission of how he was going to vote - how infrequent such admissions were from the Presidents, and never on the eve of a defining vote of the League. The mere existence of the student article on his stance caused pages of message board postings on Lafayette's forum, AGS... all of them. You're now asking me to believe - that while it caused heart palpitations across the fan bases of the entire league, that it had nothing to do with what happened in the vote on Monday and Tuesday? Come on now.

Weiss is responsible for his vote. He made it very clear days before how he was going to vote. His vote had clear, immediate consequences to one of the league's football members. And no amount of statements as to how many recruits he personally signed nor how difficult his job is changes that fact.

[ngineer]

Appears to me Weiss is engaging in 'damage control' with alumni, many of whom he pissed off. He placated his faculty wing with his much public stance against scholarships, now just like any politician, swings back to keep those with the 'big bucks' assuaged. "What do you take me for?" Lady Astor said to Sir Winston. "We have already established that," Sir Winston replied. "Now, we're negotiating."

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'll say it once more - Lehigh really has to get off its high horse. Where are the statements from its president? From anyone at all? I am going to continue to regard as fact that Lehigh voted against scholarships until I am shown otherwise. Its administration just doesn't have the wherewithal to admit it. Back in the day, we had names for people like that. I imagine those names still apply.

You might not like it, but Lafayette stated a position and stood behind it. Fordham also stated a position and stood behind it. Whatever did Lehigh do?

[fball27]

I'll say it once more - Lehigh really has to get off its high horse. Where are the statements from its president? From anyone at all? I am going to continue to regard as fact that Lehigh voted against scholarships until I am shown otherwise. Its administration just doesn't have the wherewithal to admit it. Back in the day, we had names for people like that. I imagine those names still apply.

You might not like it, but Lafayette stated a position and stood behind it. Fordham also stated a position and stood behind it. Whatever did Lehigh do?

So now, Weiss is a hero for voting against scholarships. UNBELIEVABLE.

[Go...gate]

I do not think that Mr. Weiss kicks puppies in his off-hours. And I don't think he hates athletes.

I do know, however, that mere days before the scholarship talks were to begin, for some reason - it may be never known exactly why - he revealed to the world, possibly violating a confidentiality agreement in the process, his stance on scholarships and why he thought they were a bad idea. He revealed his hand at a time when virtually every other Patriot League president, past and future, did no such weighing in on a subject that has been under serious discussion for at least two years, and under casual conversation for many more. (Fr. Brooks of Holy Cross is the only other exception to my knowledge.)

For good measure, he also hinted that Lafayette might leave the Patriot League over the matter. "The College is very supportive of the Patriot League, but what specific actions we will take in light of this vote is not clear. It's unlikely that we'd simply carry on as we do and have the League all become scholarships if we aren't doing them," he told the student newspaper. What does this mean? Drop football? Leave the Patriot League? Offer scholarships in retaliation, even though he's opposed to them? What other possible explanation is there than these three - and which two are consistent with his philosophical stance?

While we may never know for sure, the end result was that scholarships were tabled for the next two years, almost certainly pushing Fordham out the door. Mr. Weiss' on-the-record stance is diametrically opposed to what Fordham has already done: offer football scholarships.

I think those down Leopard Way are severely underplaying the historic nature of his admission of how he was going to vote - how infrequent such admissions were from the Presidents, and never on the eve of a defining vote of the League. The mere existence of the student article on his stance caused pages of message board postings on Lafayette's forum, AGS... all of them. You're now asking me to believe - that while it caused heart palpitations across the fan bases of the entire league, that it had nothing to do with what happened in the vote on Monday and Tuesday? Come on now.

Weiss is responsible for his vote. He made it very clear days before how he was going to vote. His vote had clear, immediate consequences to one of the league's football members. And no amount of statements as to how many recruits he personally signed nor how difficult his job is changes that fact.

It is starting to look like this really could have broken up the football portion of the PL, though. There is a part of me that strongly believes that such a possibility arose in the meetings and the two-year extension was to preserve the status quo to see if some consensus could be reached.

[LUHawker]

I'll say it once more - Lehigh really has to get off its high horse. Where are the statements from its president? From anyone at all? I am going to continue to regard as fact that Lehigh voted against scholarships until I am shown otherwise. Its administration just doesn't have the wherewithal to admit it. Back in the day, we had names for people like that. I imagine those names still apply.

You might not like it, but Lafayette stated a position and stood behind it. Fordham also stated a position and stood behind it. Whatever did Lehigh do?

Bogie,

You continually and to suit your own defense of LC, ignore the evidence that Lehigh issued a public, official press release supposing scholarships and Lehigh's AD was publicly quoted shortly after the December debacle as hoping a solution could be crafted that allowed for schollies. Just because there was no release saying that Lehigh voted in favor ( in fact, we don't know if a vote even happened) doesn't negate the clear signs that Lehigh is in favor of scholarships.

[CrusaderBob]

He revealed his hand at a time when virtually every other Patriot League president, past and future, did no such weighing in on a subject that has been under serious discussion for at least two years, and under casual conversation for many more. (Fr. Brooks of Holy Cross is the only other exception to my knowledge.)

LFN

Just curious when and on what subject under consideration did Fr. Brook weigh in?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN

Just curious when and on what subject under consideration did Fr. Brook weigh in?

He weighed in on basketball scholarships in the book "The Last Amateurs". It also explained several other instances when he was outspoken on the matter, too, though I don't think it was reported at the time. Be mindful, too, that Father Brooks' statements in the book came out after he retired.

[carney2]

My personal belief is that the "postponement" did not occur because of one man, one school, or any threats to leave the League if scholarships were approved. In the end it came down to one word: passion. You and I, sitting up in row 47 week after week have the passion. We want it to happen in the worst way. My gut feel is that the academics on the pro-scholarship side were, and are, conflicted. They may have been willing to cast a yes vote, but in no way saw it as something of a life and death issue. The antis were a different story. At least two schools, in my opinion, did see it as a matter of life and death. My guess (and it is, and can be, nothing more than that) is that a few people showed a willingness to go to the mat. They did not threaten. They countered logic with zeal and it worked.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

carney, you have an extremely valid point that your opinion is a guess. And, as the story goes, your guess is as good as mine. And your logic has sense to it.

But IMVHO there is something very important missing in your analysis. If this were 2005, and scholarships were just some idea that Rambackers were mulling around, I could buy the fact that this was a fight fought on purely philosophical grounds, and there are some that believe strongly in the non-scholarship thing and others that don't.

But this was - had to be - a vote on what to do about Fordham.

Fordham HAS scholarships. Right now. The one certainty in the room (well, aside from Mr. Weiss' vote that he made public days before the meeting, but I digress) was that Fordham was going to go forward with football scholarships, and wasn't going to just pull back and say "hey, we were just kidding!" in order to remain in the Patriot League in football. Furthermore, everyone in that room KNEW the story about Fordham and basketball. I'm sure they got that memo. (And even if they didn't, they probably heard it from Fordham's president, who was in the room.)

Having said all that, it certainly still could be possible that the PL Presidents didn't see this as a life-or-death issue, as I wasn't in the room. But I really don't think so, because it would have required a denial of the past (Fordham left the league in all sports but football thanks to the presidential handling of that issue) the present (Fordham has football scholarships right now) and the future (if Fordham leaves and the league remains non-scholarship, who will take their place?). Even by the standards of PL presidential debate, that's a lot to remain willfully blind about. Especially when the two day meeting was supposed to be about football scholarships.

My guess is that it was serious enough that one or more members were willing to withdraw over it. There's a lot in plain sight that makes it seem that way to me. But - as carney accruately points out - it is indeed only a guess.

[DFW HOYA]

My guess is that it was serious enough that one or more members were willing to withdraw over it. There's a lot in plain sight that makes it seem that way to me. But - as carney accruately points out - it is indeed only a guess.

But whom?

The core members were not going to risk having to leave the conference and find another conference that may have higher financial (and lower admissions)expectations to maintain sports programs.

Georgetown? They're happy to still be in the PL given the school's meager budget. It's not looking to pack up for parts unknown.

Fordham? They're gone already, and most people know it.

My guess was that no one wanted to move forward without unanimous core member support and didn't get it.

[the last indian]

Let me see if I can get the argument posted earlier. If Lafayette's Weiss pissed in the bunch bowl, then Lehigh must have done so also. Mmmmm.

For what it is worth, the issue is still very much alive at Colgate, and many like me, think we should follow Fordham's route and adopt scholarships for football and let the chips fall where they may. Stay tuned. Lastly for those who insisted that no one knew where Colgate was/is on the issue, while it might be true that our new Prexy voted to defer the decision, our policy is pro scholarship.

[the last indian]

Let me see if I can get the argument posted earlier. If Lafayette's Weiss pissed in the bunch bowl, then Lehigh must have done so also. Mmmmm.

For what it is worth, the issue is still very much alive at Colgate, and many like me, think we should follow Fordham's route and adopt scholarships for football and let the chips fall where they may. Stay tuned. Lastly for those who insisted that no one knew where Colgate was/is on the issue, while it might be true that our new Prexy voted to defer the decision, our policy is pro scholarship.

[Franks Tanks]

Let me see if I can get the argument posted earlier. If Lafayette's Weiss pissed in the bunch bowl, then Lehigh must have done so also. Mmmmm.

For what it is worth, the issue is still very much alive at Colgate, and many like me, think we should follow Fordham's route and adopt scholarships for football and let the chips fall where they may. Stay tuned. Lastly for those who insisted that no one knew where Colgate was/is on the issue, while it might be true that our new Prexy voted to defer the decision, our policy is pro scholarship.

If you do follow Fordham, and the PL asks you to find a new home for all sports, what will you do then?

[DFW HOYA]

If you do follow Fordham, and the PL asks you to find a new home for all sports, what will you do then?

Someone has probably checked out America East for other sports. Nine schools, eight of which are in New England or New York.

But in truth the PL won't push Colgate out, and in the end will let Colgate do exactly what it wants to.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If you do follow Fordham, and the PL asks you to find a new home for all sports, what will you do then?


Someone has probably checked out America East for other sports. Nine schools, eight of which are in New England or New York.

But in truth the PL won't push Colgate out, and in the end will let Colgate do exactly what it wants to.

Because the alternative is that the league would fall apart *in all sports*, which is what I've been contending now for over a month.

But then the question becomes, if Colgate leaves: Would Lehigh willfully remain non-scholarship in order to keep "The Rivalry" alive, in a five-team conference with some real slim pickings for league expansion and no autobid? Or would they follow Colgate and Fordham into a brave new scholarship world in football, and let the chips fall where they may (and still possibly play "The Rivalry", too)?

These are the brutal questions I've been bouncing around in my brain.

[carney2]

carney, you have an extremely valid point that your opinion is a guess. And, as the story goes, your guess is as good as mine. And your logic has sense to it.

But IMVHO there is something very important missing in your analysis. If this were 2005, and scholarships were just some idea that Rambackers were mulling around, I could buy the fact that this was a fight fought on purely philosophical grounds, and there are some that believe strongly in the non-scholarship thing and others that don't.

But this was - had to be - a vote on what to do about Fordham.

Fordham HAS scholarships. Right now. The one certainty in the room (well, aside from Mr. Weiss' vote that he made public days before the meeting, but I digress) was that Fordham was going to go forward with football scholarships, and wasn't going to just pull back and say "hey, we were just kidding!" in order to remain in the Patriot League in football. Furthermore, everyone in that room KNEW the story about Fordham and basketball. I'm sure they got that memo. (And even if they didn't, they probably heard it from Fordham's president, who was in the room.)

Having said all that, it certainly still could be possible that the PL Presidents didn't see this as a life-or-death issue, as I wasn't in the room. But I really don't think so, because it would have required a denial of the past (Fordham left the league in all sports but football thanks to the presidential handling of that issue) the present (Fordham has football scholarships right now) and the future (if Fordham leaves and the league remains non-scholarship, who will take their place?). Even by the standards of PL presidential debate, that's a lot to remain willfully blind about. Especially when the two day meeting was supposed to be about football scholarships.

My guess is that it was serious enough that one or more members were willing to withdraw over it. There's a lot in plain sight that makes it seem that way to me. But - as carney accruately points out - it is indeed only a guess.

We shall, I guess, agree to disagree on this. I completely disagree with both of your points:

1. "But this was - had to be - a vote on what to do about Fordham." That may be the reality, but, in my opinion, it was not in the top 3 concerns being addressed, which were: money, money, and money. As the discussions wore on and the inability to reach the "must have" consensus became more and more obvious (word is that this dragged on in one way or another for two days), Fordham's status and future fell in with the background noise. Fr. McShane, Frank McLaughlin the AD, and/or their representatives were in the room. They could be asked about how they felt. A reasonable version of that conversation would go like this:

Femovich: Gentlemen, you've been involved in these discussions and you know that we've reached something of an impasse. At this point we would like to know your position if the status quo were to continue for some determinate period into the future.

Fordham: As you know, Carolyn, we have no immediate plans to bolt the Patriot League and join some other athletic alliance. That is not to say we won't give other situations serious consideration when/if they arise. In sumary, we have no plans to jump ship based on what transpires here today, but we cannot give you any guarantees for tomorrow.

Patriot League wishy-washies: Given that we have real passion in this room and that we cannot reach agreement on even the most basic points that have been discussed, we think it is a reasonable risk to continue without scholarships for a determinate period - let's say two years. We will revisit this issue at that time, but we trust that Fordham will advise us if there is a change in their situation.

2. "My guess is that it was serious enough that one or more members were willing to withdraw over it." I would bet the bottom dollar - yours and mine - that this never happened or even came close to happening. Everyone seems to be looking for a bogeyman, someone to blame. There is no someone and there is no school to be pointed at as the culprit. It's just a bunch of academics debating and doing what academics do - not making decisions.

[carney2]

But in truth the PL won't push Colgate out, and in the end will let Colgate do exactly what it wants to.

Absolutely. If Colgate, or any school, took a unilateral action to follow Fordham down the scholarship trail, they would be to football scholarships as Holy Cross was to basketball scholarships. In other words, they would be the second school to declare and, one way or another, would probably be the straw that breaks this camel's back. With chaos and apparent League breakup confronting them in the basketball situation, Army stepped up and said "If they go, we go." We can only hope that a 3rd (4th and 5th) party will step up this time too. In reality there is too much at stake to just walk away from this League. Four schools - Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette, and Lehigh - are bound together at the hip in this thing, and anything else - ANYTHING else - would be so desperately inferior as to not be worth considering.

[Fordham]

We shall, I guess, agree to disagree on this. I completely disagree with both of your points:

1. "But this was - had to be - a vote on what to do about Fordham." That may be the reality, but, in my opinion, it was not in the top 3 concerns being addressed, which were: money, money, and money. As the discussions wore on and the inability to reach the "must have" consensus became more and more obvious (word is that this dragged on in one way or another for two days), Fordham's status and future fell in with the background noise. Fr. McShane, Frank McLaughlin the AD, and/or their representatives were in the room. They could be asked about how they felt. A reasonable version of that conversation would go like this:

Femovich: Gentlemen, you've been involved in these discussions and you know that we've reached something of an impasse. At this point we would like to know your position if the status quo were to continue for some determinate period into the future.

Fordham: As you know, Carolyn, we have no immediate plans to bolt the Patriot League and join some other athletic alliance. That is not to say we won't give other situations serious consideration when/if they arise. In sumary, we have no plans to jump ship based on what transpires here today, but we cannot give you any guarantees for tomorrow.

Patriot League wishy-washies: Given that we have real passion in this room and that we cannot reach agreement on even the most basic points that have been discussed, we think it is a reasonable risk to continue without scholarships for a determinate period - let's say two years. We will revisit this issue at that time, but we trust that Fordham will advise us if there is a change in their situation.

2. "My guess is that it was serious enough that one or more members were willing to withdraw over it." I would bet the bottom dollar - yours and mine - that this never happened or even came close to happening. Everyone seems to be looking for a bogeyman, someone to blame. There is no someone and there is no school to be pointed at as the culprit. It's just a bunch of academics debating and doing what academics do - not making decisions.

We have our Meet the Recruits on Thursday so I'll try to get the FU perspective on how the meeting played out. That said, what is posted above seems the most reasonable to me. There were between 1 and 3 schools more vociferously opposed to scholarships than the others who were for it, save us. In our case, we have no other current alternative so there was no ultimatum there either. Perhaps the meeting would have turned out different had we had a place to go already OR if Colgate or Lehigh were as pro-scholarship as LC, BU or GU were AGAINST? Further, it's possible that the strong opposition to scholarships was framed in a way to make the others comfortable that it's more a matter of timing than it is philophical opposition? It would be tough to take a harsh stance against a school that says 'there's no way we can do it today but we'll try to figure out a way in the next 2 years.'

[Go...gate]

If you do follow Fordham, and the PL asks you to find a new home for all sports, what will you do then?

Colgate was an independent for a lot longer than it was in a league. We would find a way.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

1. "But this was - had to be - a vote on what to do about Fordham." That may be the reality, but, in my opinion, it was not in the top 3 concerns being addressed, which were: money, money, and money. As the discussions wore on and the inability to reach the "must have" consensus became more and more obvious (word is that this dragged on in one way or another for two days), Fordham's status and future fell in with the background noise. Fr. McShane, Frank McLaughlin the AD, and/or their representatives were in the room. They could be asked about how they felt. A reasonable version of that conversation would go like this:

Femovich: Gentlemen, you've been involved in these discussions and you know that we've reached something of an impasse. At this point we would like to know your position if the status quo were to continue for some determinate period into the future.

Fordham: As you know, Carolyn, we have no immediate plans to bolt the Patriot League and join some other athletic alliance. That is not to say we won't give other situations serious consideration when/if they arise. In sumary, we have no plans to jump ship based on what transpires here today, but we cannot give you any guarantees for tomorrow.

Patriot League wishy-washies: Given that we have real passion in this room and that we cannot reach agreement on even the most basic points that have been discussed, we think it is a reasonable risk to continue without scholarships for a determinate period - let's say two years. We will revisit this issue at that time, but we trust that Fordham will advise us if there is a change in their situation.

Put yourself in the shoes of Fr. McShane for a moment.

You're partially behind what you think is the re-establishment of Fordham athletics to its rightful place in the world - a high-academic, high-scholarship, basketball-scholarship-loving program. You've allowed scholarships because the PL (unintentionally) established an Academic Index that tore you to ribbons, and the only way to keep up was to offer scholarships - which cost you nothing, since you were already in compliance with Title IX.

You're an Atlantic 10 school first and foremost - that happens to play in the Patriot League in football, since its worthwhile to hobnob with fellow academic-minded football programs. You're still not crazy about how the other Presidents dragged their heels on basketball scholarships, causing a collapse of the hoops program, only to institute them years later. But at heart, you like the Patriot League. You liked it so much that you didn't abandon it when you had the chance over basketball scholarships, and you didn't abandon it when the league released an AI you couldn't work with. When you offered football scholarships, it would have been easy to go independent at the same time, hoping for a Big South or CAA invite; you didn't do that. You stuck around, hoping that the PL would come to their senses and follow you into the world of football scholarships.

Fr. McShane can have only two attitudes to the meeting. Either he cares very much about staying in the Patriot League - in which case you'd think he'd be a strong advocate for his point of view, right? - or he could give a flip, in which case he wouldn't take an active part at all and be thinking about which bus to take out of the Lehigh Valley - and about when he'll call Tom Yeager, commissioner of the CAA.

Sorry, I'm not buying that Fr. McShane just sat quietly in the meeting and let it devolve into a debating society. Not when so much was invested by him in the Patriot League, over an issue that his school, in effect, created through his bold move.

[carney2]

Put yourself in the shoes of Fr. McShane for a moment.

You're partially behind what you think is the re-establishment of Fordham athletics to its rightful place in the world - a high-academic, high-scholarship, basketball-scholarship-loving program. You've allowed scholarships because the PL (unintentionally) established an Academic Index that tore you to ribbons, and the only way to keep up was to offer scholarships - which cost you nothing, since you were already in compliance with Title IX.

You're an Atlantic 10 school first and foremost - that happens to play in the Patriot League in football, since its worthwhile to hobnob with fellow academic-minded football programs. You're still not crazy about how the other Presidents dragged their heels on basketball scholarships, causing a collapse of the hoops program, only to institute them years later. But at heart, you like the Patriot League. You liked it so much that you didn't abandon it when you had the chance over basketball scholarships, and you didn't abandon it when the league released an AI you couldn't work with. When you offered football scholarships, it would have been easy to go independent at the same time, hoping for a Big South or CAA invite; you didn't do that. You stuck around, hoping that the PL would come to their senses and follow you into the world of football scholarships.

Fr. McShane can have only two attitudes to the meeting. Either he cares very much about staying in the Patriot League - in which case you'd think he'd be a strong advocate for his point of view, right? - or he could give a flip, in which case he wouldn't take an active part at all and be thinking about which bus to take out of the Lehigh Valley - and about when he'll call Tom Yeager, commissioner of the CAA.

Sorry, I'm not buying that Fr. McShane just sat quietly in the meeting and let it devolve into a debating society. Not when so much was invested by him in the Patriot League, over an issue that his school, in effect, created through his bold move.

You're missing a key point, LFN. Fordham said it a few posts ago and it is everything in our little debate:

THE RAMS HAVE NO PLACE TO GO!!

That may not be true in 6 months or a year, but it is true today. You don't burn your bridges for a principle.

Sorry, LFN, but you've been out in left field on this subject from day one. Come on in and smell the coffee.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You're missing a key point, LFN. Fordham said it a few posts ago and it is everything in our little debate:

THE RAMS HAVE NO PLACE TO GO!!

That may not be true in 6 months or a year, but it is true today. You don't burn your bridges for a principle.

Sorry, LFN, but you've been out in left field on this subject from day one. Come on in and smell the coffee.

Everyone seems to think that Fordham has no place to go. I reject that hypothesis because I can think of two conferences that would take them in a heartbeat. This is not an all-sports member where they need to be a perfect ideological fit. They can be plugged in the Big South, pretend that Stony Brook and Liberty are rivals and be on their way to FCS scholarship ball. (If that's a problem, they can also join the CAA to plug their very large geographic hole between Cowell, New Hampshire and Newark, Delaware.)

Unless they're waiting for some seismic East Coast FCS event to happen (Villanova and UMass going FBS? The A-10 or America East sponsoring football?) and commiting to the Big South now puts them in a poor situation later. But that doesn't explain their waiting game of the last two years, though, since they could have easily just joined the Big South then.

No, I choose to believe that Fr. McShane has a lot more personally invested in the PL than anyone here realizes.

[DFW HOYA]

But then the question becomes, if Colgate leaves: Would Lehigh willfully remain non-scholarship in order to keep "The Rivalry" alive, in a five-team conference with some real slim pickings for league expansion and no autobid? Or would they follow Colgate and Fordham into a brave new scholarship world in football, and let the chips fall where they may (and still possibly play "The Rivalry", too)? These are the brutal questions I've been bouncing around in my brain.

I could see this scenario: Colgate announces scholarships this summer, and Lehigh quietly informs Lafayette through channels it will follow a year later in 2012-13. "We'll continue to play you, of course," says Coen, "but if you don't join us within a few years we can both expect the series to look like the last days of UNH and Dartmouth." At that point, Jack Bourger et al. commit to get Tavani the needed grants to prevent the blood-letting and Dan Weiss gets the costs paid without wrecking the college's budget, which was the problem all along. Either that, or Bucknell becomes the new week 11 game.

[Franks Tanks]

Colgate was an independent for a lot longer than it was in a league. We would find a way.

Perhaps, but without a league the vast majority of Colgate sports would have no chance to reach the NCAA tournament. In this scenario only Football, Lacrosse, and Hockey would have any shot at post season play.

[Franks Tanks]

I could see this scenario: Colgate announces scholarships this summer, and Lehigh quietly informs Lafayette through channels it will follow a year later in 2012-13. "We'll continue to play you, of course," says Coen, "but if you don't join us within a few years we can both expect the series to look like the last days of UNH and Dartmouth." At that point, Jack Bourger et al. commit to get Tavani the needed grants to prevent the blood-letting and Dan Weiss gets the costs paid without wrecking the college's budget, which was the problem all along. Either that, or Bucknell becomes the new week 11 game.

That is the most likely scenario for Lafayette Football to get scholarships. The Lafayette-Lehigh football game is the defining event each year on the Lafayette sports calander, and letting that go away would do tremendous harm.

[carney2]

No, I choose to believe that Fr. McShane has a lot more personally invested in the PL than anyone here realizes.

Now, this makes sense. I think that you and I have different interpretations of this, but, frankly, Fr. McShane is probably representing the voice of reason at Fordham where some sort of "back to the big time" mania has gripped some of the alumni. I'm betting that Fr. McShane is not sharing these delusions of grandeur, but rather must have a vision of what is best for the University, not just the athletic department. One way or another he sees the Patriot League as the best fit for Fordham football in the long run. That is not to say however, that he would not be forced listen very carefully should an invite from the CAA show up in his mailbox tomorrow afternoon.

[Go...gate]

Perhaps, but without a league the vast majority of Colgate sports would have no chance to reach the NCAA tournament. In this scenario only Football, Lacrosse, and Hockey would have any shot at post season play.

I'm not sure that would really matter. We could probably have associate member relationships with a couple of eastern conferences in certain sports if it did.

[Fordham]

Perhaps, but without a league the vast majority of Colgate sports would have no chance to reach the NCAA tournament. In this scenario only Football, Lacrosse, and Hockey would have any shot at post season play.
Why would you think they wouldn't have a league if football goes scholarship?

[Go...gate]

We could say this about any PL school - they would be an attactive addition to many conferences. Maybe not a great fit, but few conferences reputation will suffer if a PL school were to join, even as an affiliate member while pursuing a largely "Independent" course.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Might as well post this here as well, from the Patriot League By-Laws:


10. Intercollegiate Athletic Programs Requirements

. . . . .

E. If a regular member institution sponsors a sport for which the League conducts a championship or regular in-season competition, the member institution must participate in the League competition unless an exemption from participation has been approved in advance by a majority of the Council of Presidents. The following criteria for an exemption shall apply:

(1) An institution will be permitted to exempt no more than one sport from League competition;

(2) Withdrawal of the sport under consideration will not jeopardize the League’s automatic qualification or overall competitiveness;

(3) The institution will not align its program with another Division I conference;

(4) The competitive experience is determined to be undesirable for student athletes from other League institutions due to facility or other competitive
limitations at the institution requesting the waiver; and

(5) The commitment to gender equity at the institution and in the League is not compromised.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Nice catch.

Some quick thoughts:

* This would seem to imply that Colgate would have to leave the ENTIRE PL first before joining another league in football. So a move to football scholarships could even more directly affect the long-term existence of the PL than I originally thought.

* (3) would not apply if a "New Yankee" construct comprising of A-10, America East, etc. schools comes to fruition.

* More interestingly, what if Marist and Davdison joined the PL, and Lehigh and Colgate left for a "new Yankee" conference? The PL would still have an autobid - it would have enough teams - and (3) wouldn't apply because "New Yankee" is not a Division I conference. Furthermore, Lehigh and Colgate could keep the rest of their sports in the PL, it would seem.

[Bogus Megapardus]

(3) wouldn't apply because "New Yankee" is not a Division I conference.


Oddly reasoned, but an intriguing notion nonetheless. It would mean that Lafayette or Bucknell could simply up and join the Pioneer Football League with impunity, and regardless of the consequences. I wonder if that's what they had in mind.

[DFW HOYA]

* More interestingly, what if Marist and Davdison joined the PL, and Lehigh and Colgate left for a "new Yankee" conference? The PL would still have an autobid - it would have enough teams - and (3) wouldn't apply because "New Yankee" is not a Division I conference. Furthermore, Lehigh and Colgate could keep the rest of their sports in the PL, it would seem.

Unfortunately, subtracting any core member violates the league rule that five full time institutions must sponsor a sport for the PL to conduct a championship under its auspices:

VIII. OPERATIONAL BYLAWS
ARTICLE I - SCOPE OF COMPETITION
2. Criteria for League Sport Sponsorship
"Five (5) full member institutions must sponsor a sport at the varsity level in order for it to be added to the list of League sponsored sports outlined above in Article 1."

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/2010.pdf

Even you add one, two or five more associate members, and Colgate leaves (whether to another conference or as an independent), the PL would not have the five full-time schools to continue football as a league-sponsored sport, short of adding a new full time member playing football, which still appears unlikely.

[Go...gate]

Unfortunately, subtracting any core member violates the league rule that five full time institutions must sponsor a sport for the PL to conduct a championship under its auspices:

VIII. OPERATIONAL BYLAWS
ARTICLE I - SCOPE OF COMPETITION
2. Criteria for League Sport Sponsorship
"Five (5) full member institutions must sponsor a sport at the varsity level in order for it to be added to the list of League sponsored sports outlined above in Article 1."

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/2010.pdf

Even you add one, two or five more associate members, and Colgate leaves (whether to another conference or as an independent), the PL would not have the five full-time schools to continue football as a league-sponsored sport, short of adding a new full time member playing football, which still appears unlikely.

Lots of attorneys here. I love it when the black-letter law comes out.

[ngineer]

I'll say it once more - Lehigh really has to get off its high horse. Where are the statements from its president? From anyone at all? I am going to continue to regard as fact that Lehigh voted against scholarships until I am shown otherwise. Its administration just doesn't have the wherewithal to admit it. Back in the day, we had names for people like that. I imagine those names still apply.

You might not like it, but Lafayette stated a position and stood behind it. Fordham also stated a position and stood behind it. Whatever did Lehigh do?

Probably saved the League from immediate dissolution by cobbling together a 'deferral' of any decision for two years. I don't see any record of Lehigh voting or making any statements against scholarships. All statements from the University have supported the concept, as previously noted via Dean Sterrett.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Unfortunately, subtracting any core member violates the league rule that five full time institutions must sponsor a sport for the PL to conduct a championship under its auspices.

PL Executive Director Carolyn Femovich Welcomes Marist In All Sports

That could cover Colgate's loss. After that... um... Loyola (MD) could start up a program?

Of course there's the (shudder) MplsBison rule (did I just say that?), when you simply "abolish the silly rule so that Colgate and Lehigh can play scholarship ball".

You could also make two football-only constructs, one for non-scholarship, one for scholarship. You could probably get at least seven teams on board with both.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Of course there's the (shudder) MplsBison rule (did I just say that?), when you simply "abolish the silly rule so that Colgate and Lehigh can play scholarship ball".

You could also make two football-only constructs, one for non-scholarship, one for scholarship. You could probably get at least seven teams on board with both.

Hmmm . . .

Perhaps, MplsBison:LFN as Iago:Othello.

[carney2]

We are, today, getting some mixed signals in LeopardLand. This is national letter of intent signing day, and Lafayette's coach, Frank Tavani, likes to announce his recruiting class on this day. The Pards have gone all out on this, providing an all day chat room with Tavani

http://www.goleopards.com/chat/012711aaa.html,

periodic televised "updates" throughout the day, and a televised session with Tavani at the end of the day. During the early part of the chat, Tavani fielded the following question and gave a hopeful, yet puzzling, response when you compare it to President Weiss's December interview and a few other observations that have been made. Bear in mind that many observers feel that Lafayette's equivalency number currently hovers in the low 40s.

Q: "It's been posted that Colgate has around 60 scholarship counters. Does Lafayette have enough counters to schedule an FBS school?"

TAVANI: "To be exact, Colgate has 62. No, we don't presently, but I've been given full commitment from our administration that our intent is to return to that level and schedule a money game vs. an FBS school."

[Bogus Megapardus]

In response to the scholarship issue, and specifically whether Colgate and Lehigh are poised to leave PL football, Tavani wrote this during today's chat session:

"The league presidents have agreed to table the discussion for two years. Everyone is on board with the decision and there is no indication by anyone of anything changing. We have a great league and we are all continuing our efforts to make it stronger."

[DFW HOYA]

"The league presidents have agreed to table the discussion for two years. Everyone is on board with the decision and there is no indication by anyone of anything changing. We have a great league and we are all continuing our efforts to make it stronger."

Or as Kevin Bacon once reminded us, "Remain calm! All is well!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro

[carney2]

If you haven't taken a peek, the previously mentioned Lafayette signing day festivities are VERY impressive. This bunch may look like curdled dog vomit on Saturday afternoons in the fall, but they behave like champions on Ground Hog Day.

Oh yeah, 28 recruits.

[Bogus Megapardus]

If you haven't taken a peek, the previously mentioned Lafayette signing day festivities are VERY impressive. This bunch may look like curdled dog vomit on Saturday afternoons in the fall, but they behave like champions on Ground Hog Day.

Oh yeah, 28 recruits.

32 official visits produced 28 commits. To know us is to love us.

[Go...gate]

PL Executive Director Carolyn Femovich Welcomes Marist In All Sports

That could cover Colgate's loss. After that... um... Loyola (MD) could start up a program?

Of course there's the (shudder) MplsBison rule (did I just say that?), when you simply "abolish the silly rule so that Colgate and Lehigh can play scholarship ball".

You could also make two football-only constructs, one for non-scholarship, one for scholarship. You could probably get at least seven teams on board with both.

Did I miss something here?

[Go...gate]

If you haven't taken a peek, the previously mentioned Lafayette signing day festivities are VERY impressive. This bunch may look like curdled dog vomit on Saturday afternoons in the fall, but they behave like champions on Ground Hog Day.

Oh yeah, 28 recruits.

Sounds very good.

[carney2]

32 official visits produced 28 commits. To know us is to love us.

That's one way of looking at it, I guess.

[ngineer]

We are, today, getting some mixed signals in LeopardLand. This is national letter of intent signing day, and Lafayette's coach, Frank Tavani, likes to announce his recruiting class on this day. The Pards have gone all out on this, providing an all day chat room with Tavani

http://www.goleopards.com/chat/012711aaa.html,

periodic televised "updates" throughout the day, and a televised session with Tavani at the end of the day. During the early part of the chat, Tavani fielded the following question and gave a hopeful, yet puzzling, response when you compare it to President Weiss's December interview and a few other observations that have been made. Bear in mind that many observers feel that Lafayette's equivalency number currently hovers in the low 40s.

Q: "It's been posted that Colgate has around 60 scholarship counters. Does Lafayette have enough counters to schedule an FBS school?"

TAVANI: "To be exact, Colgate has 62. No, we don't presently, but I've been given full commitment from our administration that our intent is to return to that level and schedule a money game vs. an FBS school."

Odd comment. When was Lafayette ever at the level of equivalencies? In recent memory I've never heard them to be more than the low 50's.

[carney2]

Odd comment. When was Lafayette ever at the level of equivalencies? In recent memory I've never heard them to be more than the low 50's.

Probably a touch of foot in mouth disease by the head man, but a few years ago he hinted that Lafayette was within 3 equivalencies of having a "counter" number. He never used the number, but to me that meant 54.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Probably a touch of foot in mouth disease by the head man, but a few years ago he hinted that Lafayette was within 3 equivalencies of having a "counter" number. He never used the number, but to me that meant 54.

That's exactly what I took him to mean - that we used to be in the mid-50s and we want to return to the mid-50s level because we can get an FBS game with 57. I'm really not sure it's worth dissecting Tavani's statement too finely. Clearly he said he wants to qualify for an FBS game.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This odd comment means one of three things:

* Weiss is not telling the truth. He made this "stand" not on any sort of principle, but as a way to give two more years of breathing room to the Laf administration to close the Title IX gap. Meanwhile, he's in effect told the world that he's anti-scholarship - placating his "base" of the anti-athletics faculty - but secretly he's working towards scholarship football at Lafayette.

* Tavani not telling the truth. He full well knows scholarships are dead in the water, but he wants to project a strong front for his football program, so he says that "we're going to 63 equivalencies! Charge!" even though he well knows that won't be the case.

Before going any further, I don't believe either of the first two explanations. I tend towards a third:

* Lafayette believes that they can work within the non-scholarship framework to become a counter. They don't wish for Colgate and Lehigh to get some sort of competitive advantage over them, which they feel would happen with scholarships (since they're not as hampered by Title IX as they are). If they can become a counter without them, and Patriot League teams can beat CAA/Missouri Valley teams without them... that's the best of all worlds. Who cares about expansion, losing Fordham? Stay non-scholarship, remain the Ivy League's ugly stepchild. Do nothing.

To recap: No matter which explanation you choose, someone isn't telling the whole truth, since even with Explanation #3 Weiss is still not telling the entire truth.

It also very clearly shows that Lafayette could not give a rat's behind about Fordham being a part of their league. All three explanations have that commonality.

[Go...gate]

This odd comment means one of three things:

* Weiss is not telling the truth. He made this "stand" not on any sort of principle, but as a way to give two more years of breathing room to the Laf administration to close the Title IX gap. Meanwhile, he's in effect told the world that he's anti-scholarship - placating his "base" of the anti-athletics faculty - but secretly he's working towards scholarship football at Lafayette.

* Tavani not telling the truth. He full well knows scholarships are dead in the water, but he wants to project a strong front for his football program, so he says that "we're going to 63 equivalencies! Charge!" even though he well knows that won't be the case.

Before going any further, I don't believe either of the first two explanations. I tend towards a third:

* Lafayette believes that they can work within the non-scholarship framework to become a counter. They don't wish for Colgate and Lehigh to get some sort of competitive advantage over them, which they feel would happen with scholarships (since they're not as hampered by Title IX as they are). If they can become a counter without them, and Patriot League teams can beat CAA/Missouri Valley teams without them... that's the best of all worlds. Who cares about expansion, losing Fordham? Stay non-scholarship, remain the Ivy League's ugly stepchild. Do nothing.

To recap: No matter which explanation you choose, someone isn't telling the whole truth, since even with Explanation #3 Weiss is still not telling the entire truth.

It also very clearly shows that Lafayette could not give a rat's behind about Fordham being a part of their league. All three explanations have that commonality.


Your argument seems to indicate you believe the PL will seek to keep the status quo with the exception of having more "counter" teams? I'm confused, and it really looks like that ship has sailed and or sunk...

[carney2]

* Lafayette believes that they can work within the non-scholarship framework to become a counter. They don't wish for Colgate and Lehigh to get some sort of competitive advantage over them, which they feel would happen with scholarships (since they're not as hampered by Title IX as they are). If they can become a counter without them, and Patriot League teams can beat CAA/Missouri Valley teams without them... that's the best of all worlds. Who cares about expansion, losing Fordham? Stay non-scholarship, remain the Ivy League's ugly stepchild. Do nothing.

You have a hyper active imagination, LFN. Perhaps a dose of a professionally dispensed narcotic might be of assistance. Your paranoia and tendency toward conspiracy theories moves you out there with Oliver Stone.

Frankly - and remember, I am thought of as a cumudgeon and a glass half empty type guy by my Lafayette compatriots - I don't see this at all. The number of equivalencies was reduced from a theoretical 54 to an equally theoretical 43 for reasons without fiscal support. If you take away 11 or so need based equivalencies, what kind of money have you saved? None. We are simply talking about decisions as to how a finite amount of aid is distributed. The distribution does not, and cannot, redefine the total. Why was it done? We'll never know, but best guesses are some sort of appeasement of the forces of anti-athletics.

Now, the football issue is front and center. My guess is that the decision makers have reassessed their situation and determined that they did not get the kind of mileage out of that almost invisible decision that they expected. They now feel that backtracking to appease the hot button issue of the moment would not be injurious to their ultimate goals - if they even have any as yet. I think that, in the end, Lafayette will follow the pack. If it's scholarships, so be it. They will however, do it in their own way. If, for instance, the decision is scholarships with a maximim of 60 phased in at 15 per year, and a limit of, let's say 80, on rosters - which is, by the way, pretty much what I think will happen - I would not be surprised if Lafayette chooses to go with a maximum of 40 (10 per year) and fills in to the "counter" point with need based aid or equivalencies.

I know, LFN, that you are determined to blame "that school in Easton" in general, and President Weiss in particular, for all of the evils of the planet since, and including, the Peloponnesian Wars. (Actually, I have it on good authority that you are giving both the school and its evil headmaster a pass on the first of these wars, but not the second.) You need to sit down, take a deep breath and consider that you just may not be under attack. The sky is not falling.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They now feel that backtracking to appease the hot button issue of the moment would not be injurious to their ultimate goals - if they even have any as yet. I think that, in the end, Lafayette will follow the pack. If it's scholarships, so be it. They will however, do it in their own way. If, for instance, the decision is scholarships with a maximim of 60 phased in at 15 per year, and a limit of, let's say 80, on rosters - which is, by the way, pretty much what I think will happen - I would not be surprised if Lafayette chooses to go with a maximum of 40 (10 per year) and fills in to the "counter" point with need based aid or equivalencies.

The broken record repeated: So exactly where does this leave Fordham? Rap them on the wrist, and force them to do 40 full scholarships? Create a "Fordham exception"? This explanation does nothing to counter my assertion that Lafayette wants to do its own thing, Fordham be damned.

And thus exposing this, you now understand why I'm so upset at Mr. Weiss. Not because of the second Peloponnesian War - because he seems determined to do his own thing, while ignoring the fact that Fordham is currently out the door but doesn't have to be. Consensus to Mr. Weiss does not appear to include Fordham.

[blukeys]

Everyone seems to think that Fordham has no place to go. I reject that hypothesis because I can think of two conferences that would take them in a heartbeat. This is not an all-sports member where they need to be a perfect ideological fit. They can be plugged in the Big South, pretend that Stony Brook and Liberty are rivals and be on their way to FCS scholarship ball. (If that's a problem, they can also join the CAA to plug their very large geographic hole between Cowell, New Hampshire and Newark, Delaware.)


Lfn is correct. The CAA would benefit by having Fordham as an affiliate football member. By the way the CAA hole is between the Main Line in Philly and Cowell New Hampshire.
I believe that Fordham and the CAA are a great mix. Fordham and Nova, Fordham and Delaware, can definitely generate some media attention in the New York Market. Fordham also has the opportunity to schedule some of the CAA basketball heavyweights such as GMU and VCU.
I don't know why the PL schools think they are holding the high cards. In my view it is Fordham who can pick and choose their options. Fordham in the next few years will be the nationally ranked team with or without the PL. An alliance with the CAA will help Fordham the most but in the end an alliance in football with anyone else does not hurt as well.

The Patriot League Brand does not help outside of a limited area of the Northeast. Some people need to get over themselves.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lfn is correct. The CAA would benefit by having Fordham as an affiliate football member. By the way the CAA hole is between the Main Line in Philly and Cowell New Hampshire.
I believe that Fordham and the CAA are a great mix. Fordham and Nova, Fordham and Delaware, can definitely generate some media attention in the New York Market. Fordham also has the opportunity to schedule some of the CAA basketball heavyweights such as GMU and VCU.
I don't know why the PL schools think they are holding the high cards. In my view it is Fordham who can pick and choose their options. Fordham in the next few years will be the nationally ranked team with or without the PL. An alliance with the CAA will help Fordham the most but in the end an alliance in football with anyone else does not hurt as well.

The Patriot League Brand does not help outside of a limited area of the Northeast. Some people need to get over themselves.

I think a vast majority of Fordham fans who post on the Fordham Board would agree with you. They see themselves much more aligned, philosophically and academically, with James Madison and Georgia State than they do with Georgetown and Holy Cross.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The number of equivalencies was reduced from a theoretical 54 to an equally theoretical 43 for reasons without fiscal support. If you take away 11 or so need based equivalencies, what kind of money have you saved? None. We are simply talking about decisions as to how a finite amount of aid is distributed. The distribution does not, and cannot, redefine the total. Why was it done? We'll never know, but best guesses are some sort of appeasement of the forces of anti-athletics.

I wanted to go back to this not because I'm piling on carney or Lafayette, but I wanted to share some background on how/why the equivalency numbers are always changing.

At most scholarship schools, aid is tied to athletic ability. You either get a full scholarship, a partial scholarship, or need-based aid. In their accounting, only the full/partial scholarships count as aid, which makes accounting easy. They probably have an Excel spreadsheet which says: Johnny is a full counter; Fred is a half counter. These numbers add up to a number between 56.5 and 63.

At Patriot League schools, this changes every year, since aid situations change all the time based on need. One year, Johnny is a third of a counter - but his father lost his job, so this year he's a full. Fred's father just bought a Lexus? He's off the full scholarship, he instead will get, let's say a quarter. And it's not controlled at all by the athletics office, it's controlled by the financial aid office. One administration might account for aid in a generous way, and another might tighten the purse strings.

Furthermore, some classes will have a lot of kids that need full rides; others will not. They could be classes of equal athletic ability, but the aid numbers might be completely different thanks to luck.

I bring all this up because I happen to believe that the accounting of need-based aid will never really work out with the NCAA's definition of merit-based aid when it comes to counters. The reason is there are too many moving variables to say, "Lafayette is at 63" in any sort of consistent way. Also, when you say that it "went from a theoretical 54 to a theoretical 43", IMVHO that can happen for a lot of different reasons - and not all of them are because the financial aid office has decided to become tightwads.

Having said that, I've been assured that Colgate would have been considered a "counter" against Syracuse last year if they weren't the second FCS team to play them last year, which surprised me at the time. This could either have been a fluke - or else Colgate has figured out a way to make need-based aid work for them in order to guarantee that they were a counter.

[RichH2]

The joys of dead dogs is that they never seem to go away. I can envision this or a similar thread continuing for the next 2 years.

One thing I have noticed this yer is there seems to be more aid money flowing than over the last few seasons. PARDS seem back on track and moving up per tavani. Susan bringing in a large and talented class. Even lehigh seems to be staying at least at same level altho my impression is we are gettin more high need recruits so far. Gu has done ver well finally in Dc Md area. Gate same as usual . HC no idea on $$$$ but class seems OK.

Is it remotely possible that additional aid $$$ a sop from Presidents to coaches and alums , bring more of us to counter status thereby stifling push for schollies?

[Franks Tanks]

The joys of dead dogs is that they never seem to go away. I can envision this or a similar thread continuing for the next 2 years.

One thing I have noticed this yer is there seems to be more aid money flowing than over the last few seasons. PARDS seem back on track and moving up per tavani. Susan bringing in a large and talented class. Even lehigh seems to be staying at least at same level altho my impression is we are gettin more high need recruits so far. Gu has done ver well finally in Dc Md area. Gate same as usual . HC no idea on $$$$ but class seems OK.

Is it remotely possible that additional aid $$$ a sop from Presidents to coaches and alums , bring more of us to counter status thereby stifling push for schollies?

Anything is possible. A move to more finanical aid dollars can be an attempt to placate coaches and football supporters, or it can actually be a ramp up to a full allotment of scholly's. It can also be simply be a return to previous funding levels that were in place before the economic meltdown. Who knows.

What I do believe is that we have spent more time dreaming up scenario's and discussing issues than the PL presidents have.

[carney2]

The broken record repeated: So exactly where does this leave Fordham? Rap them on the wrist, and force them to do 40 full scholarships? Create a "Fordham exception"? This explanation does nothing to counter my assertion that Lafayette wants to do its own thing, Fordham be damned.

And you continue to beat on a wounded Leopard. Let me make myself perfectly clear - or as you prefer to view it, more words to construe, misconstrue and vilify:

Here is the exact quote that you seem to view as an exit pass for Fordham:

"If, for instance, the decision is scholarships with a maximum of 60 phased in at 15 per year, and a limit of, let's say 80, on rosters - which is, by the way, pretty much what I think will happen - I would not be surprised if Lafayette chooses to go with a maximum of 40 (10 per year) and fills in to the "counter" point with need based aid or equivalencies."

As old Casey used to say, you can look it up. So, with a theoretical maximum of 60, Fordham has to back up by what - maybe 3? And this is an ultimatum that they cannot accept exactly how?

[carney2]

I've been assured that Colgate would have been considered a "counter" against Syracuse last year if they weren't the second FCS team to play them last year, which surprised me at the time. This could either have been a fluke - or else Colgate has figured out a way to make need-based aid work for them in order to guarantee that they were a counter.

Here is a direct quote from Frank Tavani's no holds barred chat session on signing day:

bill easton: It's been posted that Colgate has around 60 scholarship counters, does Lafayette have enought counters to schedule an FBS school

Coach Tavani: To be exact, Colgate has 62. No, we don't presently but I've been given full commitment from our administration that our intent is to return to that level and schedule a money game vs. an FBS school.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Here is a direct quote from Frank Tavani's no holds barred chat session on signing day:

bill easton: It's been posted that Colgate has around 60 scholarship counters, does Lafayette have enought counters to schedule an FBS school

Coach Tavani: To be exact, Colgate has 62. No, we don't presently but I've been given full commitment from our administration that our intent is to return to that level and schedule a money game vs. an FBS school.

Yeah, I don't see any ambiguity here; this is not difficult to understand: Tavani has the go-ahead to rebuild to 57-63 equivalencies under the present need-based system. Colgate already is there. If, after two years, the PL goes scholarship, they'll just convert.

Another point emphasized by Tavani during the chat was was continuing to work hard to look for expansion candidates. I don't think "looking" is the hard part (there are a finite number of FCS institutions out there). It's the "attracting" and "coming to terms with" part that seems difficult.