Another Duke to Delaware transfer

[blukeys]

With the exception of Shawn Johnson Duke transfers have been so so. However, this time Delaware picks up a Duke team captain and starter in an area where we are not really weak. Maybe Duke wants to compensate UD for taking Henderson as the BBall coach, If so they still owe us.

http://www.herald-sun.com/sports/duke/39-705088.html

[jmuroller]

Sounds like a good one.

Transfer are hit or miss though.

[blukeys]

Sounds like a good one.

Transfer are hit or miss though.


The guy was a starter and team captain so I don't think we lose anything. However, we return 2 solid senior TE's and have a Pitt transfer coming in and highly regarded Josh Baker (from JMU territory).

That being said KC blames our 2004 loss to W&M to tight end injuries so maybe you can't have too many. At 6'4" and 270 this guy will do nothing but help our short yardage offense which was a problem in '04 and '05.

I was a little dismissive of the transfers we have received from Duke. While most (ok All) were not at the Shawn Johnson level, for the most part they did make a contribution although they did not set the world on fire. :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

[ngineer]

Does he have to sit out a year since he is virtually transfering from one I-AA school to another?;) :D

[JMU2004]

Kharey Sharpe was the leading reciever and a 2nd team ALL ACC performer at Duke before coming to JMU

he did almost nothing while at JMU

[DTSpider]

Hopefully Duke will keep losing some starters before September 3rd. I really wish we had one game to get the freshman QB ready because I think that Richmond will give Duke all they can handle.

[ngineer]

Hopefully Duke will keep losing some starters before September 3rd. I really wish we had one game to get the freshman QB ready because I think that Richmond will give Duke all they can handle.

No question. I'd call it even. Even though the game is in Durham, right?

[coop]

He is going to graduate from Duke & enroll in Grad School(Please!!!). Is Delaware really running a pro team or what? I guess they are not really concerned about Student-Athletes in Newark!!!!!

[foghorn]

This guy just might be better than your average TE.http://www.wtoctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3689590

[colgate13]

He is going to graduate from Duke & enroll in Grad School(Please!!!). Is Delaware really running a pro team or what? I guess they are not really concerned about Student-Athletes in Newark!!!!!

:nono:

Don't get mad at Delaware. Get mad at the NCAA. UD is doing nothing wrong by following the rules that are allowed them.

[ChickenMan]

He is going to graduate from Duke & enroll in Grad School(Please!!!). Is Delaware really running a pro team or what? I guess they are not really concerned about Student-Athletes in Newark!!!!!

waa waa

[AppGuy04]

Does he have to sit out a year since he is virtually transfering from one I-AA school to another?;) :D

my first thought exactly

and why would he transfer with only 1 year left, I wonder what happened, couldn't cut the mustard at Duke academically?

[DTSpider]

No question. I'd call it even. Even though the game is in Durham, right?

Duke may be struggling, but they definitely won't travel to a 1AA game. Fortunately it's an easy drive down from Richmond. I'd expect Duke to be 4 to 6 point favorites (although there isn't an official line). They still are in the ACC and they still will have the depth of a 1A school.

[AppGuy04]

Duke may be struggling, but they definitely won't travel to a 1AA game. Fortunately it's an easy drive down from Richmond. I'd expect Duke to be 4 to 6 point favorites (although there isn't an official line). They still are in the ACC and they still will have the depth of a 1A school.

no no no, that is where you are wrong, just b/c they play in the ACC doesn't mean they are actually IN the ACC, atleast not in footballxlolx

[ChickenMan]

my first thought exactly

and why would he transfer with only 1 year left, I wonder what happened, couldn't cut the mustard at Duke academically?

What happened.... how about a record of 9-37... maybe he was tired of losing.

[AppGuy04]

What happened.... how about a record of 9-37... maybe he was tired of losing.

Then why is he going to UD???:confused: :smiley_wi

[colgate13]

I'm sure he could cut the mustard fine, but I'll bet he's aware of what Johnson was able to do, and thought that a trip from 'worst' to potential 'first' (UD can always make a good run) sounded nice.

Throw in the fact that he'll play in front on more people at home than he did in some games at Duke, and frankly, it's a no brainer!

(on a side note and off-topic, man I hope Duke turns it around so they don't come calling for Biddle next year!)

[AppGuy04]

I'm sure he could cut the mustard fine, but I'll bet he's aware of what Johnson was able to do, and thought that a trip from 'worst' to potential 'first' (UD can always make a good run) sounded nice.

Throw in the fact that he'll play in front on more people at home than he did in some games at Duke, and frankly, it's a no brainer!

(on a side note and off-topic, man I hope Duke turns it around so they don't come calling for Biddle next year!)

its gonna be VERY difficult for Duke to turn it around in football, especially with the academics

[DTSpider]

Duke does not lower admissions standards for football players like they do for a certain other sport. They have a very difficult time competing due to academics and recent performance. If you're a good player with good grades you'll go elsewhere. I keep waiting for the ACC to ask Notre Dame to be a football only member and to tell Duke to play football elsewhere.

[bluehenbillk]

That's just an excuse, Duke does fine in other sports that have the same academic requirements, they just need a push. I remember when Spurrier was there they seemed to do just fine.

[ChickenMan]

Then why is he going to UD???:confused: :smiley_wi

Right... with UD having three losing seasons in their last 40 years... you make a good point...;)

[MYTAPPY]

He will enjoy winning some games at UD. Wins were very hard to come by at Wallace Wade Outdoor Stadium...

[AppGuy04]

Duke does not lower admissions standards for football players like they do for a certain other sport. They have a very difficult time competing due to academics and recent performance. If you're a good player with good grades you'll go elsewhere. I keep waiting for the ACC to ask Notre Dame to be a football only member and to tell Duke to play football elsewhere.

its just alot harder to fill a whole football team than to get 13 basketball players

[henfan]

He is going to graduate from Duke & enroll in Grad School(Please!!!). Is Delaware really running a pro team or what? I guess they are not really concerned about Student-Athletes in Newark!!!!!

Nope, Coop. UD is running a darn fine institution of higher learning with great opportunities for grad school students, even grad school student-athletes. Patrick will get one year paid towards his grad degree. The NCAA has no problem with that.

[GannonFan]

Nope, Coop. UD is running a darn fine institution of higher learning with great opportunities for grad school students, even grad school student-athletes. Patrick will get one year paid towards his grad degree. The NCAA has no problem with that.

Agreed. People seem to get very anti-student when it comes to this rule whereas it's probably one of the few NCAA rules out there that really favor the student. This guy worked his butt off and got his degree from a top notch institution like Duke in 4 years. He still has one year left to play, like any other athlete, and he wants to go to grad school and win a few football games while he's at it. Delaware has a very good reputation as a post-graduate school and obviously the football is top-notch, so it isn't a hard decision to make when you can have someone pay for part of your graduate degree while actually enjoying playing football.

It's only the very accomplished students that can take advantage of this and I wouldn't want to see it cut off just to satisfy the football "purists" out there who cry about student athletes but then seem to reverse course and want to put one more restriction on them in the name of athletics. Good for this kid and good for the handful of guys who get to do this every year.

[FlyBoy8]

Delaware taking a transfer who is smart enough to graduate from Duke in four years while being team captain - VERY BAD

Texas St. and Northern Iowa loading up on a combined 500 JUCO and I-A transfers - EH, WHO CARES



We went 6-5 and STILL we're criticized. Jeez. Is Delaware like the Yankees of I-AA football? They shouldn't be. What's the deal?

[blukeys]

Delaware taking a transfer who is smart enough to graduate from Duke in four years while being team captain - VERY BAD

Texas St. and Northern Iowa loading up on a combined 500 JUCO and I-A transfers - EH, WHO CARES



We went 6-5 and STILL we're criticized. Jeez. Is Delaware like the Yankees of I-AA football? They shouldn't be. What's the deal?


To be fair there was one negative post out of 26.

Your point that other teams don't seem to attract the scrutiny Delaware does is valid but I attribute that to the '03 playoff run and the overboard coverage of barely literate incompetents such as Rod Gilmore.

[OL FU]

To be fair there was one negative post out of 26.

Your point that other teams don't seem to attract the scrutiny Delaware does is valid but I attribute that to the '03 playoff run and the overboard coverage of barely literate incompetents such as Rod Gilmore.

Is it my turn or should I wait until I am completely forgiven on GoHens:smiley_wi

[foghorn]

:nono:

Don't get mad at Delaware. Get mad at the NCAA. UD is doing nothing wrong by following the rules that are allowed them.

Or better yet, get mad at Duke. Patrick's at least the 3rd player to leave their program this year. Villanova just latched on to a Duke OL graduate with another year of eligibility. Also, a highly touted freshman QB said goodbye to the Blue Devils and will sit out a year to play for Middle Tenn.
Coop, I don't know what team you represent, but I can assure you that UD players, whether they be recruits or transfers, have a graduation rate of around 90%. You'd be better serving your frustrations by e-mailing your team's coach and telling him to be more aggressive on the job. If that's not up your alley, complain to the NCAA for implementing the transfer rule. Just don't complain about UD for its resourcefullness in getting competitive players, LEGALLY.

[griz&beer]

OK this is not a smack. How good is Duke football ???

[colgate13]

OK this is not a smack. How good is Duke football ???

Wrong question. It should be "How bad is Duke football???"

2005: 1-10
2004: 2-9
2003: 4-8 *current head coach took over last 4 games, won 3 of them. That got him the job.
2002: 2-10
2001: 0-11
2000: 0-11
1999: 3-8
1998: 4-7
1997: 2-9
1996: 0-11
1995: 3-8

You have to go to 1994 to find a winning season (8-4) and then you need to 1989 to find another winning season (8-4). Basically they've had 3 winning seasons since 1982.

They are BAD.

[GannonFan]

OK this is not a smack. How good is Duke football ???

Obviously Duke football, taken as a whole, stinks. With that being said, they do have decent players from time to time. Shawn Johnson was the ACC sack leader and first team All-ACC when he came over to the Hens in 2003. Josh Kreider, a safety and the team's 3rd leading tackler, came over in 2002 to the Hens. Johnson was all-world in IAA and Kreider was terrible. Moral is you can find good talent in rotten places, and you can find bad talent too. Interesting, though, that Duke is seeing such an exodus this year. The losing has gotten to some of them.

[GannonFan]

Wrong question. It should be "How bad is Duke football???"

2005: 1-10
2004: 2-9
2003: 4-8 *current head coach took over last 4 games, won 3 of them. That got him the job.
2002: 2-10
2001: 0-11
2000: 0-11
1999: 3-8
1998: 4-7
1997: 2-9
1996: 0-11
1995: 3-8

You have to go to 1994 to find a winning season (8-4) and then you need to 1989 to find another winning season (8-4). Basically they've had 3 winning seasons since 1982.

They are BAD.

The sad thing is for our VMI fans on here that they would kill for some of those records. If that's bad, I don't even want to know the adjective for VMI.

[MYTAPPY]

OK this is not a smack. How good is Duke football ???

I live in NC and all my friends who are Duke fans have never been to a Duke football game. They couldn't even tell you who the head coach is.
Here is a joke for you. What happens at a Wake Forest/Duke Football game?.........They throw books at each other.

[DTSpider]

The sad thing is for our VMI fans on here that they would kill for some of those records. If that's bad, I don't even want to know the adjective for VMI.

Ouch!

Duke really has been in bad shape. The ACC has gotten so much better as well. I just cannot see Duke beating a FSU, Miami, Tech (either one), NCSU, BC, Maryland at all. That leaves Clemson, Wake, UVA & UNC. Out of that group, maybe 2 wins a year at the most. It's got to be tough to know that you're going to finish 1-7 in conference every year.

[Go...gate]

Tough thing with Duke is that it also seems like they really are not inclined to do anything to change the situation. Other similarly situated private-school FB programs (Wake Forest, Rice, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt, among others) seem to shrug off that kind of defeatism and continue to try all kinds of measures - coaching changes, facility upgrades, etc. - to invigorate their programs, and they do break through from time to time (Northwestern's '95 Rose Bowl team, for instance). In contrast, Duke seems content to lose.

[Go...gate]

Sorry about the duplicate post - my machine hiccuped. Moderator, could you delete?

[ngineer]

Tough thing with Duke is that it also seems like they really are not inclined to do anything to change the situation. Other similarly situated private-school FB programs (Wake Forest, Rice, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt, among others) seem to shrug off that kind of defeatism and continue to try all kinds of measures - coaching changes, facility upgrades, etc. - to invigorate their programs, and they do break through from time to time (Northwestern's '95 Rose Bowl team, for instance). In contrast, Duke seems content to lose.

There was some 'talk' a number of years ago about these schools creating their own conference--in essence a I-A 'Patriot League' where the players' would have to meet an academic formula in order to be admitted. Would have been Duke, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Rice, Northwestern, Tulane, Stanford. Of this crew, Wake, Northwestern, and Stanford have a 'good' year every so often, so it would certainly provide these schools with a realistic opportunity to win every week and actually think about winning a championship. But that was years ago, and I haven't heard anything of it since....

[blukeys]

OK this is not a smack. How good is Duke football ???


REALLY BAD!!! Granted they are in a VERY tough conference with Miami and Boston College joning the ACC but Duke's football team would be hard pressed to beat a top 10 I-AA team any day of the week.

Delaware has had their share of Duke transfers before '03 and they have been smart but unathletic players.

Some have started some have not. In the end as athletes the players UD recruited out of high school were better. THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE SHAWN JOHNSON. He was in a class by himself and he came to UD thru dumb luck.

For the idiots who criticize UD for Johnson, the true story is one of the PL passing on a gift horse and sending him to UD. So It goes.

Recently, I had a basketball fanatic ask me about Duke football. He asked why Gene Delledonne, an athletic but unheralded QB (By D I-A standards) was offered a scholarship to Duke when there appeared to be little interest in him at the I-A level.

At the same time his sister was ranked as a 9th grader as the NO. 1 high school female basketball player in the nation.

My friend's point was perhaps Gene was offered a scollie so that Duke could land the best female BBall player in the nation for their women's team.

I had to confess that this level of cynicism went completely over my head but my admiration for seeing the connection was profound.

Perhaps, the football program is sucking up not to just the men's but also the women's BBall program. If so the AD has already made the decision about where the football program is and that is way behind basketball.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Tough thing with Duke is that it also seems like they really are not inclined to do anything to change the situation...

Like Stanford and Wake... the answer is easy... BC$ money. When the top teams get into the big-money BC$ bowls, Stanford, Wake and Duke get some money too.

[coop]

How is S. Johnson's progress going as a UD Grad student?? Did he graduate? Did he attend classes? I don't... know I'm just asking.

If a student is not really going for academic reasons that is a problem.

[bluehenbillk]

Johnson attended classes at UD for one semester & was an Academic All-American that season. He left that winter to train for the combine & a NFL career.

[RadMann]

This scenario of a student attending and playing as a grad student, while completely within the NCAA rules is not ideal in my opinion. That being said I doubt many I-AA programs would turn down a player who came to them wanting to play with the "baggage" of being A) a very good student, B) an all-conference ACC player (Johnson) or C) a team Captain (the latest transfer).

There is good and bad from a UD fan's perspective. Good in that these guys looked highly at UD and wanted to transfer there, but a little negative with the unease as a fan of taking a late stage transfer in my opinion. Note, as I recall Fordham had essentially accepted Johnson when he wanted to transfer until they found out that the PL forbids the practice.

[ngineer]

There's nothing wrong with the practice, but I would think it might cause some dissension within the team. Guy puts in his years, expects to start and then some guy, already with a degree, but one more year of eligibility comes in and takes position. Could cause some hard feelings. The only equivalent in the PL is for a player from the same team who may be eligible for a medical redshirt, may already have his degree. He can then work on a masters or a second bachelors with his 5th year.

[ChickenMan]

How is S. Johnson's progress going as a UD Grad student?? Did he graduate? Did he attend classes? I don't... know I'm just asking.

If a student is not really going for academic reasons that is a problem.

Your concern for alleged 'academic' reasons is misplaced... the students in question are more than academically qualified ... as they have have ALREADY graduated and are just using the additional year of eligibility which is permitted by the NCAA rules. The NCAA certainly has 'academic' issues with some institutions... but students who have already graduated and still have eligibility remaining isn't one of them.

[coop]

So it's OK to just USE your School to play football. I know it's legal in the NCAA eyes, but what does your school stand for football or education??

Are they really going there for a GRAD degree or just another year of football.

[DTSpider]

In each of the past two seasons Richmond has taken a 1A transfer. In both instances the players had already graduated and had two years of eligibility left. Both are getting masters degrees and will have their additional degrees when they are done. Having those two students as upperclassmen on the team can only help but be a positive role model for the young guys. I think that we're missing the boat here by ctriticizing graduate players getting masters degrees and ignoring the hunders of kids who don't even graduate in 5 years from many schools.

[coop]

Did S. Johnson graduate UD Grad School? Or did he just leave after the Football season?

[pitpen]

Did S. Johnson graduate UD Grad School? Or did he just leave after the Football season?

What's the difference between that and a guy like Leinart coming back for a fifth year, taking one class during the fall and leaving school after that?


You're pretty hung up on the one case and I'm not sure why, to be honest.

[jmuroller]

What's the difference between that and a guy like Leinart coming back for a fifth year, taking one class during the fall and leaving school after that?



That is a completely different situation. Not even close to being in the same ballpark.

That being said, while the education freaks might look at this as a bad thing, I don't blame UD at all for this.

[blukeys]

This scenario of a student attending and playing as a grad student, while completely within the NCAA rules is not ideal in my opinion. That being said I doubt many I-AA programs would turn down a player who came to them wanting to play with the "baggage" of being A) a very good student, B) an all-conference ACC player (Johnson) or C) a team Captain (the latest transfer).

There is good and bad from a UD fan's perspective. Good in that these guys looked highly at UD and wanted to transfer there, but a little negative with the unease as a fan of taking a late stage transfer in my opinion. Note, as I recall Fordham had essentially accepted Johnson when he wanted to transfer until they found out that the PL forbids the practice.

Yes, Johnson had been accepted to grad school and was ready to practice at Fordham when the Fordham staff and Johnson were informed that due to the fact that he was a grad student he could not play in the PL. Fordham's coach Cawlson called Dave Cohen the DC at UD to see if UD would be interested and the rest is History.

The Pl only forbids the practice of accepting 5th year players if they graduate. Johnson would have been ok if he had done what most I-A players do which is not to graduate in 4 years. Johnson would have been a grad student which is verbotten in the PL. (The Holy Cross Rule)
The only way to remedy the situation is to outlaw redshirting, which will never happen. As long as redshirting is legal in the NCAA then athletes who actually matriculate in 4 years have the potential to be penalized. In my view they should not be penalized when they are the ones who have been good students. For my team I want someone smart enough to graduate from Duke and qualify for one of our Graduate Programs.


It continually amazes me that a Duke grad who was a Dean's list student is the one that is continually held up for ridicule as a football mercenary and a detriment to I-AA football.

Coop what about the transfers to Jackson State? Where is your criticism of the transfers from JUCOS to SIU, and other Gateway teams. Your selective criticism is truly the definition of Hypocrisy.

[coop]

That is why the Patriot league has a rule against it. You are just admitting them to play football. The Patriot is concerned about Education. BTW, if they really do go on to graduate like the Richmond kids, then I applaud them.
My problem is with players transfering for 1 year with the sole purpose of just playing football. That is what the Arena league and any other lower level Pro teams are for, not 1AA COLLEGE football.
IF UD wants to be known for that, then maybe they should open with the Berlin Thunder fom NFL Europe( at home of course).

[ChickenMan]

IF UD wants to be known for that, then maybe they should open with the Berlin Thunder fom NFL Europe( at home of course).

Villanova... another pretty good academic institution... also took a Duke graduate with a year of football eligibility remaining this past month... but amazingly... no one accused them of any wrong doing. Apparently 'transfers' will continue to be an 'issue'... ONLY when they concern the University of Delaware... :rolleyes:

PS... coop... why do I have a feeling that you're a Lehigh guy???

[FlyBoy8]

My problem is with players transfering for 1 year with the sole purpose of just playing football.

And why is that?

NEWSFLASH: 99.9% of all the transfers are transferring for football reasons. Is there something significant I'm missing that seperates a senior transfer and a junior transfer?

Hey guess what, all those freshmen that sign with your school? They sign for football reasons. Sure academics are important, but you know that if they weren't offered money to play football at your school, they'd be somewhere else, academics be damned.

This isn't the NFL, but its not Pee Wee either. These kids aren't just playing around while they go to school. This is serious stuff.

And not that it's relevant in this case since Patrick was already a starter in the ACC, but what the hell is wrong with pursuing a career in pro football anyway? The point of college is to prepare you for a career. If a kid can make a career out of football, why is that bad? It's not like we're talking about some sleazy football factory, these kids are getting degrees from quality institutions, then playing out the rest of their eligibility.

I don't get it.

[coop]

Using your arguement .... Why make them take classes at all, that just gets in the way of football, and we are preparing them for a pro career right?

[FlyBoy8]

No, my point is that they ARE taking classes, and they're doing well in them, and I don't understand what the problem is.

Do you have a problem with all transfers? Or just 5th year transfers? Or just 5th year transfers that have already graduated?

Or just transfers that go to Delaware?

[colgate13]

Using your arguement .... Why make them take classes at all, that just gets in the way of football, and we are preparing them for a pro career right? Oh face it. The whole premise that a student that has gone to the trouble of earning an undergrad degree ISN'T somehow still a student-athlete because they are pursing a graduate degree at another institution AND playing football is silly. These types of students are the least of my, yours, and the NCAA's worries. These students are graduating! And for the most part they are not 'ringers' or else they wouldn't have gone to the trouble of staying all four years. If someone ends up getting a pro shot a la Shawn Johnson because of it, all the more power to the student-athlete for making something of his life. There are plenty of bigger and more important bones to pick when it comes to the 'student' part of student-athlete.

[henfan]

That is why the Patriot league has a rule against it. You are just admitting them to play football. The Patriot is concerned about Education...My problem is with players transfering for 1 year with the sole purpose of just playing football.

Looks like you're on your own in this fight, coop. Your fellow PL fans don't even seem to agree with you and the NCAA sure as Shineola doesn't.

If the sole purpose of the transfer was to just play football, then you'd likely get a lot of buy in. When student-athletes are attending class and working towards a masters (and, yes, also playing football), what good would it do to deny them that opportunity? You'd rather not have someone get a shot at an extra year of education, just because they happen to accel in a particular sport?

Yeah, the PL may be concerned about education, but you sure don't seem to be.

[UNH SUPERFAN]

Hopefully Duke will keep losing some starters before September 3rd. I really wish we had one game to get the freshman QB ready because I think that Richmond will give Duke all they can handle.
You certainly will, don't you return all of your o-line? My cousin's son is their QB (Zack Asack) so go easy on him!

[pitpen]

That is a completely different situation. Not even close to being in the same ballpark.

That being said, while the education freaks might look at this as a bad thing, I don't blame UD at all for this.

With respect to the quote


If a student is not really going for academic reasons that is a problem.,

the situations are similar. Each student played football for a fifth year, and left after the fall semester of that year.

The fact that one is a transfer and the other isn't doesn't change anything in regards to Coop's problem with a player "using" a school for football.

[blukeys]

That is why the Patriot league has a rule against it. You are just admitting them to play football. The Patriot is concerned about Education. BTW, if they really do go on to graduate like the Richmond kids, then I applaud them.
My problem is with players transfering for 1 year with the sole purpose of just playing football. That is what the Arena league and any other lower level Pro teams are for, not 1AA COLLEGE football.
IF UD wants to be known for that, then maybe they should open with the Berlin Thunder fom NFL Europe( at home of course).


Do you even bother to gather facts or do you just decide to vent your prejudices and pray that maybe the facts support you? You are 100% wrong why the PL has a rule against grad students playing. The Pl has a rule prohibiting grad students for One simple and understandable reason and that is not all PL schools have graduate programs!!!:nod:

Holy Cross does not have grad programs while Georgetown does. To allow these players would upset the competitive balance in the conference against the schools not having a graduate school. This for instance would give Georgetown an edge that Holy Cross does not have. The rule is simply a reflection of this reality and the desire to maintain a competitive balance within the conference. It is an understandable rule but not the NCAA standard.

It appears that not only do you have an obvious bias against UD but for some reason you believe that Graduate students are not real students or academically committed. You must have ignored all of your college professors since they were at one time graduate students and therefore not pure students. xlolx :rotateh:

[henfan]

The fact that one is a transfer and the other isn't doesn't change anything in regards to Coop's problem with a player "using" a school for football.

I suppose coop also takes issue with the student-athletes "using" the school to advance their education? : retard :

If the kid had the talent to go to the NFL, he'd do it immediately and not go through the trouble of enrolling in grad school, attending classes, etc.

[MR. CHICKEN]

CAPTAIN BEEFHEART!........................BRAWK!

[DTSpider]

You certainly will, don't you return all of your o-line? My cousin's son is their QB (Zack Asack) so go easy on him!

We had one senior on the O-line last year, but he was hurt for the last half of the season. So essentially, we do return the entire starting O-line. Our defensive line however had some losses so hopefully some of the red-shirt freshmen will be able to step in and play some significant minutes. However, we'll still have a lot of really young guys playing in some key roles (see secondary & QB) which could really hurt us in the turnover battle.

[DTSpider]

Why is there so much debate over guys who have graduated? Shouldn't we care more about kids who transfer and never graduate?

[rfeng]

Nice thread talking about academics. Reading this thread I would like to understand what is the objection to prop 48. Without quoting all the arguments, which can just as easily be used in support of a prop 48 student, if a student comes to your university and spends a year taking courses to establish he/she can learn at this level, before playing a game, why is that objectionable? Is that different from any other student who comes to your school and redshirts for a year? If the bottom line is academics, then the prop 48 student is someone who should be admired and encouraged.

[colgate13]

If the bottom line is academics, then the prop 48 student is someone who should be admired and encouraged.

All depends on the school IMO. If a school takes borderline kids all the time and turns them into graduates, fine. If they only take borderline athletes and rents them for a few seasons, that's the beef.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I suppose coop also takes issue with the student-athletes "using" the school to advance their education? : retard :

If the kid had the talent to go to the NFL, he'd do it immediately and not go through the trouble of enrolling in grad school, attending classes, etc.

Paradoxically, you've crystallized the opposition to this in a nutshell.

I don't think anyone is opposing anybody who is going to school to advance their education. Nobody has a problem with someone who is using up eligibilty, helping pay for a college or grad school tuition, and "playing by the rules".

What folks DO have a problem with is someone who has their 4-year degree and transfer to go to a semester of grad school in order to use up their eligibility and enhance their NFL value. Seriously, I'm not saying that anyone at the I-AA level has ever actually done this, but it IS a huge loophole. And it should be called just that - a loophole, not business as usual.

Granted, someone who does this and then goes on to an NFL career can just put their education "on hold", play a couple years in the NFL and then always pursue studies during the offseason. But there's no real way to prove that this can/will/is happening.

As a matter of fact, this loophole is extremely difficult to prove that the students are actually doing what they are saying that they're doing. That's my problem with this practice, and it's not confined to grad-school transfers. It's one thing to have an athlete, who is (say) 8 credits away from college graduation, to put the 8 credits on hold. It's quite another for someone to take (say) 8 credits towards 28 to get a master's and have a year and a half of full-time grad school left to "pick right back up again". Is it right to do this? It's a commonly-accepted practice, but is it right?

I'd like to see the NCAA do a study on 5th-year athletes in general, if they haven't already. How many actually do get their masters degrees? What about those who transfer to grad school and play one more year at a different institution? How's, for example, Peyton Manning's postgrad studies going? (Maybe he HAS his masters, but I don't know that.) My feeling is, through all of Division I, you'd see an ugly picture. But is it a problem, per se? Nobody knows the answer. A study would shed some light.

What is very clear is that this is something that bears scrutiny. Just saying "there are bigger problems with college FB" or "everyone does it" isn't enough. This shouldn't be business as usual.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

All depends on the school IMO. If a school takes borderline kids all the time and turns them into graduates, fine. If they only take borderline athletes and rents them for a few seasons, that's the beef.

Similar to the "grad school/eligibility" question, it's a matter of "is this being abused to make great football/basketball programs, or is it helping thousands of students get an education"? Unfortunately, unless the NCAA has studied the issue, we're unlikely to get the real answers.

[FlyBoy8]

What folks DO have a problem with is someone who has their 4-year degree and transfer to go to a semester of grad school in order to use up their eligibility and enhance their NFL value.

Yeah, because going from team captain and best player on your ACC team to a new system at Division I-AA Delaware is obviously a move made to help your draft stock.

[DTSpider]

I think that we're forgetting what some of these guys offer to the classroom. A senior captain who has graduated and played football at a high level brings a much different perspective to a classroom than a regular student. Even if guys don't finish, as long as they are active in their academics I applaud them for it. I'd rather have a student take an extra semester than not. What's better, a kid with a degree and 6 grad schools classes or a kid with a degree and zero grad school classes? At UR the football players tend to have very different backgrounds than a lot of students. Their perspectives on teamwork and life can be very useful in business school classes.

What's a better role model, Payton Manning with an unfinished masters or Maurice Clarett with half a year of classes? Or, which is better, Payton who takes 5 years to finish his undergrad, or Payton who finishes an undergrad in 4 and does some graduate work in his 5th? If the purpose of a college is to prepare people for life, isn't the second option better?

Let's look at it this way: John gets to play college football for 3 years because he did very well in the classroom and graduated early. Bill gets to play college football for 5 years because he didn't do as well and it took him longer (or even worse doesn't graduate at all).

I can understand the arguement about whether to spend money on scholarships (although I strongly disagree I can understand the logic), but I do not understand the viewpoint of punishing students who do better in the classroom that their peers.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yeah, because going from team captain and best player on your ACC team to a new system at Division I-AA Delaware is obviously a move made to help your draft stock.

I don't know if this kid is doing it for that reason or not. My only point is that the potential for abuse is there.

[DTSpider]

I don't know if this kid is doing it for that reason or not. My only point is that the potential for abuse is there.

I agree. Similar to some of the recruiting practices...could a school like UD potentially do something unsavory to get over the edge for one year? There's a reason why you cannot transfer between 1A programs without sitting out a year (and potentially losing a year of eligibility). I guess the NCAA figures schools at the 1AA don't have as much to gain financially (i.e. no $15 million bowl games that you're one win away from). However, it comes down to institutional control. If you do things the right way than it gives a player a chance to get some time on the field, play closer to home, play for a winning team, etc.

[blukeys]

Paradoxically, you've crystallized the opposition to this in a nutshell.

I don't think anyone is opposing anybody who is going to school to advance their education. Nobody has a problem with someone who is using up eligibilty, helping pay for a college or grad school tuition, and "playing by the rules".

What folks DO have a problem with is someone who has their 4-year degree and transfer to go to a semester of grad school in order to use up their eligibility and enhance their NFL value. Seriously, I'm not saying that anyone at the I-AA level has ever actually done this, but it IS a huge loophole. And it should be called just that - a loophole, not business as usual.

Granted, someone who does this and then goes on to an NFL career can just put their education "on hold", play a couple years in the NFL and then always pursue studies during the offseason. But there's no real way to prove that this can/will/is happening.

As a matter of fact, this loophole is extremely difficult to prove that the students are actually doing what they are saying that they're doing. That's my problem with this practice, and it's not confined to grad-school transfers. It's one thing to have an athlete, who is (say) 8 credits away from college graduation, to put the 8 credits on hold. It's quite another for someone to take (say) 8 credits towards 28 to get a master's and have a year and a half of full-time grad school left to "pick right back up again". Is it right to do this? It's a commonly-accepted practice, but is it right?

I'd like to see the NCAA do a study on 5th-year athletes in general, if they haven't already. How many actually do get their masters degrees? What about those who transfer to grad school and play one more year at a different institution? How's, for example, Peyton Manning's postgrad studies going? (Maybe he HAS his masters, but I don't know that.) My feeling is, through all of Division I, you'd see an ugly picture. But is it a problem, per se? Nobody knows the answer. A study would shed some light.

What is very clear is that this is something that bears scrutiny. Just saying "there are bigger problems with college FB" or "everyone does it" isn't enough. This shouldn't be business as usual.

Your point appears to be that the Grad school option is a potential abuse that can be used by players to enhance their NFL value and that this should be investigated. I would put more faith in your argument if I had heard similar concerns when Brandon Jacobs transferred from Auburn to Southern Illinois for one year. (he is now a NY Giant but would not have started for Auburn).

Did Jacobs transfer for the awesome educational opportunities at SIU for his senior year or to "increase his NFL value"? And if he transferred for his "NFL value" why have I heard no objection from ANY PL fan about the Brandon Jacobs transfer?

There is also no objection from the same folks who post with accusations and insinuation rearding UD transfers about the myriad of JUCO transfers the Midwestern schools get from Coffeyville JUCO. (How many of those Coffeyville transfers were looking at their education when they went to Gateway and OVC schools?)

As I stated in my initial post, UD has seen their share of Duke transfers to Delaware. In all honesty I have been underwhelmed by the Duke players with the exception of Shawn Johnson. This may say more about the status of Duke Football than anything about quality I-AA teams.

I do think that Andy Hall left GA. Tech in his Sophomore year for Delaware with the idea at least in part that it would give him a shot in the NFL. It appeared he would not be a starter at Ga Tech so he looked at other options. Do you think Hall's transfer should be "investigated". Of course Hall may have transferred for academics or just a chance to compete to be a starter. How about Sonny Riccio (who left Missouri) or MIKE CONNOR??????? (Connor transferred to Lehigh from UD when Keeler made it known that Hall was his QB of the future) Tell me did Connor transfer due to his desire to experience Lehigh academics???????????

Perhaps the Connor's transfer should be "investigated" since I'm not convinced he did it for academic reasons.

It appears that if Delaware finds a solid student who ACTUALLY graduates in 4 years from an academically respected institution the practice needs to be investigated.

BUT Players who are in the PL who don't graduate but get a 5th year of eligibility are OK.

Yeah right no bias and no hypocrisy there.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I do think that Andy Hall left GA. Tech in his Sophomore year for Delaware with the idea at least in part that it would give him a shot in the NFL. It appeared he would not be a starter at Ga Tech so he looked at other options. Do you think Hall's transfer should be "investigated". Of course Hall may have transferred for academics or just a chance to compete to be a starter.

...

Perhaps the Connor's transfer should be "investigated" since I'm not convinced he did it for academic reasons.

It appears that if Delaware finds a solid student who ACTUALLY graduates in 4 years from an academically respected institution the practice needs to be investigated.

BUT Players who are in the PL who don't graduate but get a 5th year of eligibility are OK.

Yeah right no bias and no hypocrisy there.

Where in my original post did I say Delaware is in the crosshairs? Where did I claim in my post that anyone at Delaware, present or otherwise, is gaming the system? My aim is not to single out Delaware for transfer abuse.

I understand that you feel that Delaware is getting unfairly targeted here. But the same tired old defenses keep coming out. "Everyone, even the PL, accepts transfers." "Some kid at Southern Illinois was worse". "Boy, JuCo's are a bigger problem - go after them!" ALL OF THESE ARE IRRELEVANT. The point is, if you accept folks who have graduated 4-year colleges as transfers, is the potential for abuse there? Yes, and it's greater than if you take on JuCo's or transfers who have not graduated college.

Do I know, or suspect that Shawn Johnson gamed the system? NO. I have no way of knowing. That's my problem with it.

[colgate13]

My problem with this whole discussion is that is makes a mountain out of a molehill. PL schools would do this too in a heartbeat if the conference allowed it and all schools had grad programs. Shawn Johnson would have been a Fordham Ram instead of a Blue Hen if the PL allowed it.

To start to question the intent of every transfer, grad student, JUCO, etc. in order to determine how pure their actions are is a ridiculous slippery slope to go down. Why single out transfers? Why not look at all recruits?

Folks, this is Division I football. Athletes are paid to play (in the form of scholarships or grants in aid) and are expected to perform for the university. This is not a lily white business of amatuer athletes playing the game for the love of it and hitting the books during the week. It's more complicated than that.

Trying to single out students who have GRADUATED and are looking to STAY IN SCHOOL because they are doing it at another institution is silly. How many students go to the same grad school as their undergrad? If a student still has eligibility left, why should they be limited to their undergrad institution in order to play while in school? They should be able to use the same resources and decision making power that they did when they were looking at undergrads, i.e.: where can I play, who will pay for my education and where can I get the best degree. It's simple, really.

[henfan]

Colgate13, thank you for injecting considerable sanity into this discussion.

Unless the NCAA passes legislation to disallow student-athletes whom have graduated from receiving aid to continue their education and athletic participation, this will remain an issue only to those who think they can somehow get inside the hearts and minds of college football players.

[GannonFan]

Like I said before, this is actually an NCAA rule that benefits the student athletes, a rarity these days in the NCAA where student athletes get the raw end of the deal a lot of times - most of the objections I hear are ones that seek to close this "loophole" in the fear that it could tip the competitive balance of the football game on the field, i.e. a team could stock up on future NFL'ers just to win a title. Maybe it's those kind of objections, with no actual evidence to say that it's happening, that are the real problem - people want to close off academic advantages to student athletes (i.e. get a year or two of grad school paid for while playing football) in the interest of the sport they like to watch - that's more a perversion of the student-athlete system than the student transferring in the first place. It's a classic case of the medicine being worse than the disease.

Colgate13 is right, in that pretty much anybody playing a college sport is taking a little more into consideration than just the pure academics of it all - there is no sport at the college level that is strictly about the academics. You can't ever possibly hope to ascertain the full reasons for why students play sports to begin with so trying to have a system "check" against "abuses" is bound to fail at its inception. At the IAA level, I think things are working relatively well - I wouldn't want to see us become overly draconian in regards to accomplished students in the professed interest in perserving the competitive balance of the football division - like I said, that in itself seems to be ironically more concerned about the sport than the student athlete.

[Fordham]

Yes, Johnson had been accepted to grad school and was ready to practice at Fordham when the Fordham staff and Johnson were informed that due to the fact that he was a grad student he could not play in the PL. Fordham's coach Cawlson called Dave Cohen the DC at UD to see if UD would be interested and the rest is History.

The Pl only forbids the practice of accepting 5th year players if they graduate. Johnson would have been ok if he had done what most I-A players do which is not to graduate in 4 years. Johnson would have been a grad student which is verbotten in the PL. (The Holy Cross Rule)
The only way to remedy the situation is to outlaw redshirting, which will never happen. As long as redshirting is legal in the NCAA then athletes who actually matriculate in 4 years have the potential to be penalized. In my view they should not be penalized when they are the ones who have been good students. For my team I want someone smart enough to graduate from Duke and qualify for one of our Graduate Programs.


It continually amazes me that a Duke grad who was a Dean's list student is the one that is continually held up for ridicule as a football mercenary and a detriment to I-AA football.

Coop what about the transfers to Jackson State? Where is your criticism of the transfers from JUCOS to SIU, and other Gateway teams. Your selective criticism is truly the definition of Hypocrisy.

This is dead on. We were salivating at the opportunity to get Johnson to come and play with his brother and the only bitterness I have towards the situation is over how he would have improved our team that was so loaded on offense that year but needed more defensive studs. The other thing is, if I understand things correctly, the reason Johnson and other PG students aren't accepted at PL schools is because not all PL schools offer graduate programs. Thus, Lafayette College, for example, would be at a competitive disadvantage versus the other PL universities who have options for students like Johnson who have eligibility left but have completed their undergraduate work. If my handle on it is correct this has nothing to do with any 'holier than thou' proclamation by the league that this is an education over football issue and has everything to do with keeping things on a level playing field for all PL institutions.

As much as I like to bring his name up in jest to UD fans whenever the transfer issue comes up it's clearly just tongue in cheek. Shawn Johnson is actually a great example imo for why this aspect of the system is working fine.

[colgate13]

The other thing is, if I understand things correctly, the reason Johnson and other PG students aren't accepted at PL schools is because not all PL schools offer graduate programs. Thus, Lafayette College, for example, would be at a competitive disadvantage versus the other PL universities who have options for students like Johnson who have eligibility left but have completed their undergraduate work. Thus, if my handle on it is correct this has nothing to do with any 'holier than thou' proclamation by the league that this is an education over football issue and has everything to do with keeping things on a level playing field for all PL institutions.

Your understanding is 100% correct. It's not just Lafayette though (which BTW has a competitive advantage with their academic merit aid program). Holy Cross has no grad program, Colgate's consists of about 4 MAT students and Bucknell's is slightly larger than Colgate's but I don't know how large.

The schools that could do this in theory would be Fordham, Georgetown and Lehigh. FU and GU in particular I think could benefit from this advantage with their law schools. Just think if you could get a few Duke, Stanford, Cal, etc. type players that aren't going to the NFL to get into law school and play for a year... especially if the PL were to get schollies. Talk about being able to bring in some ringers!

I actually wouldn't have a problem with this even though Colgate's options are limited. We'd just produce a lot of teachers who happen to be football players. :)

[blukeys]

The schools that could do this in theory would be Fordham, Georgetown and Lehigh. FU and GU in particular I think could benefit from this advantage with their law schools. Just think if you could get a few Duke, Stanford, Cal, etc. type players that aren't going to the NFL to get into law school and play for a year... especially if the PL were to get schollies. Talk about being able to bring in some ringers!

I actually wouldn't have a problem with this even though Colgate's options are limited. We'd just produce a lot of teachers who happen to be football players. :)


LMAO!!

I am beginning to see the diabolical thinking that allows a small liberal arts school to be consistently competitive at the I-AA level without offering "scholarships"

[Tubby Raymond]

Where in my original post did I say Delaware is in the crosshairs? Where did I claim in my post that anyone at Delaware, present or otherwise, is gaming the system? My aim is not to single out Delaware for transfer abuse.

I understand that you feel that Delaware is getting unfairly targeted here. But the same tired old defenses keep coming out. "Everyone, even the PL, accepts transfers." "Some kid at Southern Illinois was worse". "Boy, JuCo's are a bigger problem - go after them!" ALL OF THESE ARE IRRELEVANT. The point is, if you accept folks who have graduated 4-year colleges as transfers, is the potential for abuse there? Yes, and it's greater than if you take on JuCo's or transfers who have not graduated college.

Do I know, or suspect that Shawn Johnson gamed the system? NO. I have no way of knowing. That's my problem with it.

:bawling: