Ivy League - Non Scholarship? Really?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.salemnews.com/sports/x1919700005/Prep-football-star-Delisle-commits-to-Harvard


St. John's Prep football captain Ryan Delisle has everything colleges are looking for in an athlete. First of all, he has outstanding size at 6-foot-5, 235 pounds. He also has great skill, is a superb leader, and carries an impressive 3.8 GPA in the classroom.

It should come as no surprise that college coaches were flocking to the Prep trying to lure the Marblehead resident to their school. But Harvard expressed interest early, and it's hard to turn down that prestigious Ivy League school.

"Ryan is an elite athlete, who was recruited heavily by a lot of people," said Prep football coach Jim O'Leary. "He is a D1 player who had his choice of schools, and Harvard put together a great financial package. This is a wonderful opportunity for him, and we want our kids to go to the best academic school possible."

This should be required reading for folks that think that Harvard is "non-scholarship".

[ccd494]

So what? The vast majority of incoming Harvard students get "great financial packages."


More than 60 percent of Harvard students receive aid, and the need-based awards average $40,000, the school says.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/harvard-tuition-breaks-50k-mark/

[Wildcat80]

Correct.....nonathletic scholarships. Smart, talented players from lower income families get full rides!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ah yes, you know that and I know that. But to those not in the know - and lots of academes - they feel this way:

http://www.ncsasports.org/blog/2010/01/05/evaluating-every-scholarship-option/


ESPN reports on the decision making process of top recruit Blake Barker.

Blake Barker did his research. A high school senior with one eye on the classroom and one eye on the football field, he wasn’t leaving anything to chance.

During his summer of soul-searching, a summer that included a much-publicized commitment that stunned the recruiting world, Barker reached out to any expert who had been in his cleats.

Given that the 6-foot-6, 238-pound tight end from Buckingham Browne & Nichols in Cambridge, Mass., was debating whether to decommit from Stanford and announce he would play at Harvard, the more facts, the better.

Recruiting gurus would question why a potential pro talent would rather play at a non-scholarship, Football Championship Subdivision school than a landing spot out West for the athletic and academic elite. Veterans of the coaching business would wonder if his choice was indicative of his desire to play the game.

Some can’t figure out why he wants to perform in front of several thousand fans against Yale or Dartmouth instead of 100,000 against USC or UCLA.

To a complicated question, Barker’s response is simple.

“I realized I didn’t want to be all the way out on the West Coast,” said Barker, who also plays defensive end. “I wanted to be closer to home and that kind of made my decision. Harvard has everything I want. I couldn’t be happier about my decision.”

The answer is that he's getting a full ride either way. It's not a case of him paying to go to Harvard or competing at Stanford.

[ccd494]

Ah yes, you know that and I know that. But to those not in the know - and lots of academes - they feel this way:

http://www.ncsasports.org/blog/2010/01/05/evaluating-every-scholarship-option/

The answer is that he's getting a full ride either way. It's not a case of him paying to go to Harvard or competing at Stanford.

So what's the point? You can get a ton of aid and go to a NESCAC school to play football. Or you can walk on and get a ton of aid at Texas A&M. Or you can be a non-athlete and get a ton of aid at Delaware. I think everyone understands that.

I have no clue what you were trying to get at in your disingenuous first post or in your contradictory second post.

[DFW HOYA]

So what's the point? You can get a ton of aid and go to a NESCAC school to play football. Or you can walk on and get a ton of aid at Texas A&M. Or you can be a non-athlete and get a ton of aid at Delaware. I think everyone understands that.


Of course, not every non-scholarship school offers "a ton of aid". Some offer comparatively little.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I thought H-Y-P aid packages all included mandatory non-disclosure provisions. Shame on Mr. Delisle for spilling to his H.S. coach. Could cost him a club punch.

[Green26]

Harvard is providing $158 million of financial aid to undergrads this year. From the Harvard website:

"Families with incomes above $120,000 and below $180,000 with assets typical for these income levels are asked to contribute 10 percent of their incomes. For those families with incomes below $120,000, the parental contribution declines steadily from 10 percent, reaching zero for those with incomes at $60,000 and below."

[MplsBison]

I thought H-Y-P aid packages all included mandatory non-disclosure provisions. Shame on Mr. Delisle for spilling to his H.S. coach. Could cost him a club punch.

Right, better get them brainwashed from the start. Can't let the public catch on about how corrupt the Ivy system is.

[MplsBison]

Harvard is providing $158 million of financial aid to undergrads this year. From the Harvard website:

"Families with incomes above $120,000 and below $180,000 with assets typical for these income levels are asked to contribute 10 percent of their incomes. For those families with incomes below $120,000, the parental contribution declines steadily from 10 percent, reaching zero for those with incomes at $60,000 and below."

That's nice for the website. Reality is, with the application forcing you to report family income, there's no way they're going to admit a kid from a poor family. They want full payers.

[Bogus Megapardus]

When you have a $27 billion endowment, you can do pretty much whatever you want.

[HailSzczur]

people contribute to the endowment of the university specificly for financial aide. Ivy's suprisingly enough give some of the best aide. the challenge is getting in

[DFW HOYA]

That's nice for the website. Reality is, with the application forcing you to report family income, there's no way they're going to admit a kid from a poor family. They want full payers.

Harvard is need blind and full need, so if they qualify for aid, they'll get it.

Georgetown is need blind and full need as well, but Harvard can offer considerably more aid aid to higher household incomes than Georgetown ever could; hence, the competitive advantage for H-Y-P against other Ivy and PL schools.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

The Ivy's are an example of how "smart" people become ignorant because they live and work in an environment removed from the reality of common people. The Ivy Establishment's stance on social issues (and consequently their published "studies") are bass ackwards and contradictory to history and human nature.

Everyone has access to the same information. With the right set of brains, a student at Middletown Community College can learn just as much as a Harvard undergad. He just won't get to be President with nothing but "Community Organizer" on his resume. It's ironic how people who bewail the injustice of inequality are at the center of a system which creates and encourages exclusivity.

The Ivy's would get absolutely stomped if they played in the FCS playoffs, which is why they cower atop the Ivory Tower of "academic integrity" as a reason for not participating. The reality is they don't want everyone to see them get thumped by Directional State U.

[DFW HOYA]

The Ivy's are an example of how "smart" people become ignorant because they live and work in an environment removed from the reality of common people. The Ivy Establishment's stance on social issues (and consequently their published "studies") are bass ackwards and contradictory to history and human nature.

Everyone has access to the same information. With the right set of brains, a student at Middletown Community College can learn just as much as a Harvard undergad. He just won't get to be President with nothing but "Community Organizer" on his resume. It's ironic how people who bewail the injustice of inequality are at the center of a system which creates and encourages exclusivity.

The Ivy's would get absolutely stomped if they played in the FCS playoffs, which is why they cower atop the Ivory Tower of "academic integrity" as a reason for not participating. The reality is they don't want everyone to see them get thumped by Directional State U.

Everyone may have access to information, but not the ability to capitalize on it. Sure, Google could have been invented in Nachitoches, LA or Loretto, PA, but it's no accident it was created in Silicon Valley, where the confluence of know-how, labor, venture capital, and server space made it happen. So it is with the Ivies. They maintain capital resources across the board that 95% of I-AA schools cannot match, which then draws better faculty, which draws better students, and so forth, which trasnslates into loyal alumni. Princeton has an annual giving rate of 60% every year. How many I-AA schools (outside of Furman) can say the same?

An Ivy team is good for a round or two in the playoffs--don't forget that the Ivy routinely get players signed in the NFL and that's no accident, either. However, the H-Y-P brahmin know that the Big Games mean a little less if their team gets bounced in the first or second week of the playoffs to a directional school, so it's better to end on a high note. And how many Ivy alumni are truly put out by this?

[HailSzczur]

The Ivy's would get absolutely stomped if they played in the FCS playoffs, which is why they cower atop the Ivory Tower of "academic integrity" as a reason for not participating. The reality is they don't want everyone to see them get thumped by Directional State U.

that is not true at all. We have played Penn for about the last 6 years straight, and you can never take that game for granted. This year was no exception, it was a comeback win, just like many of overtime and last minute wins at Franklin Field too. And they are pretty bruising too. We has All American canidate Ray Ventrone end his season, and Villanova career getting carted off Franklin Field, and this year they knock Szczur out for 6 weeks.

Don't write of the Ivy League

[Green26]

That's nice for the website. Reality is, with the application forcing you to report family income, there's no way they're going to admit a kid from a poor family. They want full payers.

The admissions office doesn't receive any financial information on the applicant or the family. That goes to another department, i.e. financial aid. That's why the Ivies are known to do "need blind" admissions. They admit those who are qualified and/or who they want, without knowing the "need" of the applicant. After admissions are made, the list is given to the financial aid department, who figures out the scholarship to be offered. 60% of Harvard students get financial aid.

Neither Harvard or the Ivies are seeking "full payers". That's why financial aid is costing Harvard $158 million this year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Point being, that Harvard's "generous aid packages" for all, including athletes, are the equivalent in many, many cases as a scholarship to play football. Calling it D-III/non-scholarship is disingenuous at best.

[DFW HOYA]

From the Harvard web site--this excerpt alone illustrates the power of the harvard aid package (academic notwithstanding):

"Over 70 percent of Harvard students receive some form of financial aid. Our policy of need-based financial aid is designed to meet 100 percent of a family's demonstrated need. Our recent low– and middle–income initiatives have made our aid program even more generous by eliminating the parent contribution for families with incomes below $60,000, reducing the parent contribution for families with incomes between $60,000 and $180,000, and eliminating student loans."

Outside Yale and Princeton, no school (certainly not Georgetown) can afford to eliminate parent contribution or even student loans in most cases. Even amidst the nonexistent facilities and poor W/L record, the #1 enemy of Georgetown football recruiting is the inability of a recruit to afford to attend.

At Harvard? Not at all. Put in layman's terms, if you are accepted and your family still earns under $180K, you're likely to get close to a full grant to attend Harvard and access to an remarkable academic and alumni network. That's why the other Ivies, great schools in their own right, suffer so much in comparison on admissions.

[Green26]

When the stated cost of attending an Ivy is over $55,000 (and it's way more than that when it's all said and done), getting a scholarship of $40,000 or $45,000 can look like a very good financial aid package (and it is). However, attending a football scholarship school on a full ride would cost $10,000 - $20,000 less per year than for the family in my assumed situation. By the way, the said-and-done cost for my daughter's Ivy education is about $65,000 per year, with sorority, rugby, singing group and travel from the West.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Outside Yale and Princeton, no school (certainly not Georgetown) can afford to eliminate parent contribution or even student loans in most cases. Even amidst the nonexistent facilities and poor W/L record, the #1 enemy of Georgetown football recruiting is the inability of a recruit to afford to attend.

And yet, Harvard "believes" they are non-scholarship. That's why, upon even a hint of the Patriot League offering scholarships, they said they would consider cancelling series with PL schools and play their "non-scholarship equals". In their minds, that means Georgetown, Davidson and San Diego, despite the fact that a Harvard football recruit has no student loans or parent contribution in many cases.

Ironically, a scholarship Patriot League would simply make a similar aid package that Harvard already provides to their athletes.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Of course, the Ivy League wouldn't sacrifice academics on transfer students of uncanny abilities, either.

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Oh, wait.

http://roarlions.blogspot.com/2011/01/kind-of-big-deal.html


6”4, 263-pound Texas A&M defensive lineman Wells Childress, (son of NFL great Ray Childress ), is transferring to Columbia.

Wells actually walked on at A&M, but he was a preferred walk on and the CU people think he will be a serious impact player.

And the Ivy League never redshirts.

...

...

...

Oh, wait:


He should have three years of eligibility left after being redshirted in 2009.

[Franks Tanks]

Of course, the Ivy League wouldn't sacrifice academics on transfer students of uncanny abilities, either.

...

...

...

Oh, wait.

http://roarlions.blogspot.com/2011/01/kind-of-big-deal.html



And the Ivy League never redshirts.

...

...

...

Oh, wait:

Don't forget Hatch at Harvard. I think he is about 25 after LSU and a mormom mission.

[NDSU_grad]

Based on our combined income right now, my kids could attend Harvard cheaper than they could NDSU, presuming they got accepted of course.

[NDSU_grad]

From the Harvard web site--this excerpt alone illustrates the power of the harvard aid package (academic notwithstanding):

"Over 70 percent of Harvard students receive some form of financial aid. Our policy of need-based financial aid is designed to meet 100 percent of a family's demonstrated need. Our recent low– and middle–income initiatives have made our aid program even more generous by eliminating the parent contribution for families with incomes below $60,000, reducing the parent contribution for families with incomes between $60,000 and $180,000, and eliminating student loans."

Outside Yale and Princeton, no school (certainly not Georgetown) can afford to eliminate parent contribution or even student loans in most cases. Even amidst the nonexistent facilities and poor W/L record, the #1 enemy of Georgetown football recruiting is the inability of a recruit to afford to attend.

At Harvard? Not at all. Put in layman's terms, if you are accepted and your family still earns under $180K, you're likely to get close to a full grant to attend Harvard and access to an remarkable academic and alumni network. That's why the other Ivies, great schools in their own right, suffer so much in comparison on admissions.

How do Yale and Princeton compare? I would think with Princeton's emphasis on undergraduate education, they would be able to provide good assistance.

[Franks Tanks]

How do Yale and Princeton compare? I would think with Princeton's emphasis on undergraduate education, they would be able to provide good assistance.

Yale and Princeton offer the same aid packages as Harvard.

[ccd494]

I don't understand your vendetta. The Ivies accept transfers (I can think of one prominent individual who transfered to Columbia from a fairly obscure California college as a junior in the early 80's), the vast majority of them not being athletes. I don't see anything that says that the player you referenced is unfit to be a Columbia student academically. Further, Columbia didn't redshirt the kid, Texas A&M did.

Again, I don't get what your problem with the Ivy League is. They don't want to participate in the playoffs? They didn't let Lehigh in? They have more money and prestige?

[MplsBison]

The admissions office doesn't receive any financial information on the applicant or the family. That goes to another department, i.e. financial aid. That's why the Ivies are known to do "need blind" admissions. They admit those who are qualified and/or who they want, without knowing the "need" of the applicant. After admissions are made, the list is given to the financial aid department, who figures out the scholarship to be offered. 60% of Harvard students get financial aid.

Neither Harvard or the Ivies are seeking "full payers". That's why financial aid is costing Harvard $158 million this year.

I coulda swore in another thread we were just talking about need-blind admissions.

If all Ivy schools are need-blind, good. All admissions should be need-blind. In fact, the only ethical way to discriminate a surplus of applicants for admission to a school is by scholarly merit. All other criteria can not be ethically justified when used to discriminate. That includes gender, race, religion, family/personal income or athletic ability, etc.

[MplsBison]

I don't understand your vendetta. The Ivies accept transfers (I can think of one prominent individual who transfered to Columbia from a fairly obscure California college as a junior in the early 80's), the vast majority of them not being athletes. I don't see anything that says that the player you referenced is unfit to be a Columbia student academically. Further, Columbia didn't redshirt the kid, Texas A&M did.

Again, I don't get what your problem with the Ivy League is. They don't want to participate in the playoffs? They didn't let Lehigh in? They have more money and prestige?

My problem is that they won't play most FCS schools in football. I'd be fine if they left the NCAA and played only each other for the Ivy League championship every year.

[ccd494]

My problem is that they won't play most FCS schools in football. I'd be fine if they left the NCAA and played only each other for the Ivy League championship every year.

I don't get this gripe. It would be one thing if they played only themselves then took away a playoff spot from a team more integrated into the FCS schedule. But they don't. They essentially DO leave the NCAA and play their own championship, they just happen to each play a game or two in addition against other FCS schools. Don't like it? Don't schedule them.

There's an even more extreme example in D3, the NESCAC plays the NESCAC and only the NESCAC, and then sits out the D3 playoffs. So what? They do things differently. But they aren't swinging the national title or anything, so let them do it.

[DFW HOYA]

All admissions should be need-blind. In fact, the only ethical way to discriminate a surplus of applicants for admission to a school is by scholarly merit.

"By standard measures of academic talent, including test scores and academic performance, this year’s applicant pool reflects an unprecedented level of excellence. For example, more than 3,000 applicants scored a perfect 800 on the SAT Critical Reading Test; 4,100 scored 800 on the SAT Math Test; and nearly 3,600 were ranked first in their high school classes."

The freshman class numbers only 1,600. Not so easy to choose, is it?

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/04/a-historic-year-for-harvard-admissions/

[Green26]

I coulda swore in another thread we were just talking about need-blind admissions.

If all Ivy schools are need-blind, good. All admissions should be need-blind. In fact, the only ethical way to discriminate a surplus of applicants for admission to a school is by scholarly merit. All other criteria can not be ethically justified when used to discriminate. That includes gender, race, religion, family/personal income or athletic ability, etc.

All of the Ivies adhere to "need-blind" admissions. Can you not accept this fact?

Schools can and do set their own admission criteria, and can get any criteria they want--so long as they don't discriminate based on race, color, creed, gender, etc.

While academic achievement and intellectual potential are important, the Ivies want to attact, education graduate those who will make many contributions in many fields, as well as be leaders in the country and the world. They also want diversity, and not just recial diversity. They Ivies don't want all egg-heads. Admissions policy and criteria has nothing to do with ethics. It's becomin pretty clear you didn't qualify for an Ivy school.

From Harvard's website:

What kind of admissions criteria does Harvard use?

There is no formula for gaining admission to Harvard. Academic accomplishment in high school is important, but the Admissions Committee also considers many other criteria, such as community involvement, leadership and distinction in extracurricular activities, and work experience. The Admissions Committee does not use quotas of any kind. We rely on teachers, counselors, headmasters, and alumni/ae to share information with us about applicants' strength of character, their ability to overcome adversity, and other personal qualities--all of which play a part in the Admissions Committee's decisions.

[Redwyn]

I made my points - points that were both ineffectively and unconvincingly answered earlier - so I'll spare you all from hearing them again in full by summarizing.

1. I have paperwork offering me money from Cornell to attend as part of a "foundation fellowship". This is a merit scholarship, and anyone blindly rejecting this on the frame of the term "fellowship" is either naive or simply determined to blindly defend the school. I still posit that there's nothing wrong with this - every school recruits, let them continue to do so. My best friend has receipts from Columbia for receiving funding as a "Rabi Scholar", which is completely merit based.

2. Answering concerns regarding a school with quotes from the school's website - especially when speaking of deals that would have to be underhanded to be accomplished in order to maintain compliance with Ivy League policy - is not just insufficient in terms of the formation of an argument, it's an insult to the intelligence of those who you choose to engage in a discourse with. It's like attempting to justify the existence/wonders of Jesus using quotes from the New Testament - one cannot serve to justify or confirm the other.

At the end of the day, I see nothing wrong with the Ivy League using financial incentive to recruit, just like I see little reason why members of the Patriot League use moral reasoning to justify their reluctance to do the same. If you cannot afford it, it's more than reasonable not to sacrifice academic aspects for this. However, this is clearly not the case at H-Y-P like it might be at Georgetown or Lafayette.

Regarding the fundamental application of scholarships, it is my conviction that students with prodigal talent should be rewarded for their talent. If I'm good at Art, I see no problem with giving an art scholarship. Ditto to music, science, humanities, and athletics. While it is easy for one to fall back on the idea that students should be "honored enough" to attend an Ivy League school...I don't buy it. Goldman Sachs doesn't underpay its employees because they should be "honored" to work there, nor does Morgan Stanley or Google. You get into those schools hopefully because you've learned enough about them, agree with their mission - and universities have diverse missions no matter how "good" they are considered by construed ranking systems to be - and you are found to best match the mission of that school and accepted. In cases of those students who would face multiple acceptances, I see merit and athletic scholarships as the college version of free agency. This is life, those who work hard and succeed should be given incentives to continue succeeding. It's not equal, it's not fair, it's life. Any less and you'd be doing a disservice to those who have to find out later in their careers, when a failure to recognize this concept can be damaging in the long term.

[Redwyn]

It's becomin pretty clear you didn't qualify for an Ivy school.
.

What a horrible thing to say...to anyone. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Franks Tanks]

I made my points - points that were both ineffectively and unconvincingly answered earlier - so I'll spare you all from hearing them again in full by summarizing.

1. I have paperwork offering me money from Cornell to attend as part of a "foundation fellowship". This is a merit scholarship, and anyone blindly rejecting this on the frame of the term "fellowship" is either naive or simply determined to blindly defend the school. I still posit that there's nothing wrong with this - every school recruits, let them continue to do so. My best friend has receipts from Columbia for receiving funding as a "Rabi Scholar", which is completely merit based.

2. Answering concerns regarding a school with quotes from the school's website - especially when speaking of deals that would have to be underhanded to be accomplished in order to maintain compliance with Ivy League policy - is not just insufficient in terms of the formation of an argument, it's an insult to the intelligence of those who you choose to engage in a discourse with. It's like attempting to justify the existence/wonders of Jesus using quotes from the New Testament - one cannot serve to justify or confirm the other.

At the end of the day, I see nothing wrong with the Ivy League using financial incentive to recruit, just like I see little reason why members of the Patriot League use moral reasoning to justify their reluctance to do the same. If you cannot afford it, it's more than reasonable not to sacrifice academic aspects for this. However, this is clearly not the case at H-Y-P like it might be at Georgetown or Lafayette.

Regarding the fundamental application of scholarships, it is my conviction that students with prodigal talent should be rewarded for their talent. If I'm good at Art, I see no problem with giving an art scholarship. Ditto to music, science, humanities, and athletics. While it is easy for one to fall back on the idea that students should be "honored enough" to attend an Ivy League school...I don't buy it. Goldman Sachs doesn't underpay its employees because they should be "honored" to work there, nor does Morgan Stanley or Google. You get into those schools hopefully because you've learned enough about them, agree with their mission - and universities have diverse missions no matter how "good" they are considered by construed ranking systems to be - and you are found to best match the mission of that school and accepted. In cases of those students who would face multiple acceptances, I see merit and athletic scholarships as the college version of free agency. This is life, those who work hard and succeed should be given incentives to continue succeeding. It's not equal, it's not fair, it's life. Any less and you'd be doing a disservice to those who have to find out later in their careers, when a failure to recognize this concept can be damaging in the long term.

Lafayette can afford merit-aid for football. We are not giving it at this point because we feel it goes against our principles (total BS of cousre).

I don't doubt your information on Cornell and Columbia, but they do things differently than HYP as they don't have the same aid policies for all students as the big 3.

[Redwyn]

I don't doubt your information on Cornell and Columbia, but they do things differently than HYP as they don't have the same aid policies for all students as the big 3.

My understanding was that the Ivy League maintained the same policies across the board as far as scholarships? I'm also aware of a millionaire's daughter who was given a memorial fund reward for "fencing achievement" by Harvard when she was recruited. The question left unanswered on the previous topic is: are memorial fund awards or fellowships, such as those given by an alumni booster association, considered scholarships?

Again, nothing about that to me seems wrong, but it would certainly poke a rather large whole in the "no scholly" debate.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

At the end of the day, I see nothing wrong with the Ivy League using financial incentive to recruit, just like I see little reason why members of the Patriot League use moral reasoning to justify their reluctance to do the same. If you cannot afford it, it's more than reasonable not to sacrifice academic aspects for this. However, this is clearly not the case at H-Y-P like it might be at Georgetown or Lafayette.

This is the crux of the issue of need-based aid. Georgetown, Lafayette, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Bucknell and Colgate are being asked to make sacrifices for "academic integrity" - i.e., don't start offering football scholarships. H-Y-P need make no such sacrifices - they, in effect, do offer football scholarships today. And when their football coaches go out and recruit, it's marketed as such. The PL is being asked - no, scolded - by the IL about how scholarships will wreck academic integrity. Yet H-Y-P do in effect the same thing today, because they have so much money they can in effect scholarship everybody.

The IL, at best, can be seen as flexible in their own interpretation of the rules. They claim they don't redshirt, ever - but if the transfer is good enough, or high-profile enough... they'll look the other way. (That doesn't even begin to talk about the kids that don't play for a year due to "academics", but magically re-appear when key players go down with injury.) They claim they're non-scholarship - but if the entire student body is on some sort of scholarship, aren't they technically over the 63 scholarship limit, even if you add up all the partials (of which there are likely only very few)? Additionally, they only want to be seen as non-scholarship... until they want to play an FBS team, when coaches and ADs want to bend the NCAA's rules in order to have a crack at them.

It's rich that the IL is seen as this paragon of virtue when it comes to scolding the PL, and yet they appear to make countless exceptions for their own cases.

Your bring up the analogy of Goldman Sachs, and how they don't underpay their employees because they should be "honored" to work there. Well, the Ivy League is asking the Patriot League to "underpay" its football commitment for the honor of being in their proximate orbit. And whenever football scholarships are mentioned - with adherence to an Academic Index, the same basic rule that the IL has for determining athlete eligibility - they say that offering them would be so unbalancing to the PL/IL relationship that they would consider terminating the informal arrangement. I think such a demand ought to be seen in the spirit of the ways that the IL themselves look the other way at their own principles - simply as a way to preserve their own unique advantages.

[Franks Tanks]

My understanding was that the Ivy League maintained the same policies across the board as far as scholarships? I'm also aware of a millionaire's daughter who was given a memorial fund reward for "fencing achievement" by Harvard when she was recruited. The question left unanswered on the previous topic is: are memorial fund awards or fellowships, such as those given by an alumni booster association, considered scholarships?

Again, nothing about that to me seems wrong, but it would certainly poke a rather large whole in the "no scholly" debate.


Well they arent considered scholarships by the NCAA as they are not supossed to be related to athletic merit aid. However, you see why calling the Ivies non-scholarship is a bit false. The Ivies have a ton of aid to give out, and they will find a way to entice someone they really want to come to school. HYP give a virtual full aid to everyone who isnt pretty well off so they are a different conversation.

[DFW HOYA]

If one follows the dictionary definition of the noun scholarship as, "financial aid provided to a student on the basis of academic merit," then the Ivy League is a legitimate non-scholarship confernce. This thread suggests that aid, in and of itself, is a scholarship and that is not accurate.

Harvard (and to a lesser extent Yale and Princeton) operate at a competitive advantage because their range of full need awards now extend to 93% of household incomes versus 55-70% at PL and other peer institutions.

There may come a day when Harvard (or more likely Stanford) would offer a 100% award (i.e., free tuition) to its entire class, as was done for many years at Rice and, most recently, Cooper Union. Until then, need based aid is the driver here, not scholarships.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If one follows the dictionary definition of the noun scholarship as, "financial aid provided to a student on the basis of academic merit," then the Ivy League is a legitimate non-scholarship confernce. This thread suggests that aid, in and of itself, is a scholarship and that is not accurate.

But the IL and PL implicitly defines "academic merit" for its football players as "adhering to the Ivy League's Academic Index", since that's a prerequisite for participation. Therefore, if a Patriot League football player gets scholarship money and adheres to their not-identical-but-eerily-similar Academic Index, what's different about a Patriot League "scholarship" and an Ivy League "scholarship"? Both would offer aid. Both would pass tests of "academic merit". The only difference would be the source of the money.

[Green26]

I made my points - points that were both ineffectively and unconvincingly answered earlier - so I'll spare you all from hearing them again in full by summarizing.

1. I have paperwork offering me money from Cornell to attend as part of a "foundation fellowship". This is a merit scholarship, and anyone blindly rejecting this on the frame of the term "fellowship" is either naive or simply determined to blindly defend the school. I still posit that there's nothing wrong with this - every school recruits, let them continue to do so. My best friend has receipts from Columbia for receiving funding as a "Rabi Scholar", which is completely merit based.

2. Answering concerns regarding a school with quotes from the school's website - especially when speaking of deals that would have to be underhanded to be accomplished in order to maintain compliance with Ivy League policy - is not just insufficient in terms of the formation of an argument, it's an insult to the intelligence of those who you choose to engage in a discourse with. It's like attempting to justify the existence/wonders of Jesus using quotes from the New Testament - one cannot serve to justify or confirm the other.

At the end of the day, I see nothing wrong with the Ivy League using financial incentive to recruit, just like I see little reason why members of the Patriot League use moral reasoning to justify their reluctance to do the same. If you cannot afford it, it's more than reasonable not to sacrifice academic aspects for this. However, this is clearly not the case at H-Y-P like it might be at Georgetown or Lafayette.

Regarding the fundamental application of scholarships, it is my conviction that students with prodigal talent should be rewarded for their talent. If I'm good at Art, I see no problem with giving an art scholarship. Ditto to music, science, humanities, and athletics. While it is easy for one to fall back on the idea that students should be "honored enough" to attend an Ivy League school...I don't buy it. Goldman Sachs doesn't underpay its employees because they should be "honored" to work there, nor does Morgan Stanley or Google. You get into those schools hopefully because you've learned enough about them, agree with their mission - and universities have diverse missions no matter how "good" they are considered by construed ranking systems to be - and you are found to best match the mission of that school and accepted. In cases of those students who would face multiple acceptances, I see merit and athletic scholarships as the college version of free agency. This is life, those who work hard and succeed should be given incentives to continue succeeding. It's not equal, it's not fair, it's life. Any less and you'd be doing a disservice to those who have to find out later in their careers, when a failure to recognize this concept can be damaging in the long term.

Actually, what you said previously about the Rabi fellowship at Columbia was that it was a "scholarship" and a "full ride". Neither of those things were accurate. It's a fellowship for research and doesn't pay for tuition, etc. at Columbia, is my recollection.

Generally, at least historically, the Ivies have factored merit-looking awards into the amount of the need-based grant/scholarship amount.

Generally, a fellowship is not financial aid or a scholarship

From the Harvard fencing team webpage Q & A:

Do you offer scholarships?
Harvard does not offer athletic scholarships; it runs its financial aid on a need-only basis.

[DFW HOYA]

But the IL and PL implicitly defines "academic merit" for its football players as "adhering to the Ivy League's Academic Index", since that's a prerequisite for participation. Therefore, if a Patriot League football player gets scholarship money and adheres to their not-identical-but-eerily-similar Academic Index, what's different about a Patriot League "scholarship" and an Ivy League "scholarship"? Both would offer aid. Both would pass tests of "academic merit". The only difference would be the source of the money.

One would be administered regardless of athletic participation. the other based on athletic participation.

[bluehenbillk]

The Ivy League is as "non-scholarship" as the Patriot League is. Is there a point of a multi=page thread on the topic?

[Redwyn]

Actually, what you said previously about the Rabi fellowship at Columbia was that it was a "scholarship" and a "full ride". Neither of those things were accurate. It's a fellowship for research and doesn't pay for tuition, etc. at Columbia, is my recollection.

Generally, at least historically, the Ivies have factored merit-looking awards into the amount of the need-based grant/scholarship amount.

Generally, a fellowship is not financial aid or a scholarship

From the Harvard fencing team webpage Q & A:

Do you offer scholarships?
Harvard does not offer athletic scholarships; it runs its financial aid on a need-only basis.

Responses in brief:
1. See point #2 when stating that from the Ivy Website. I can write that I'm a deity, but that doesn't mean I am one.
2. Rabi Scholarship absolutely contributed towards tuition and personal payment. I can't testify as to exactly how - it's none of my business - but if it's structured like the similar Cornell award I received there were direct contributions towards tuition.

[Franks Tanks]

The Ivy League is as "non-scholarship" as the Patriot League is. Is there a point of a multi=page thread on the topic?

The point, which you didn't care to read, is that the bulk of players who attend Ivy and Patriot schools do so free of charge or with small charges. The NCAA does not classify the PL as non-scholarship, and the assertion that the Ivy league is non-scholarship is also quite difficult to believe based on their generous financial aid packages.

[DFW HOYA]

The point, which you didn't care to read, is that the bulk of players who attend Ivy and Patriot schools do so free of charge or with small charges.

"Free of charge or with small charges"? I hope Georgetown could say the same someday.

[MplsBison]

I don't get this gripe. It would be one thing if they played only themselves then took away a playoff spot from a team more integrated into the FCS schedule. But they don't. They essentially DO leave the NCAA and play their own championship, they just happen to each play a game or two in addition against other FCS schools. Don't like it? Don't schedule them.

There's an even more extreme example in D3, the NESCAC plays the NESCAC and only the NESCAC, and then sits out the D3 playoffs. So what? They do things differently. But they aren't swinging the national title or anything, so let them do it.

-or- Don't like it? Kick them out of the FCS.

That works too, thanks for playing.

[MplsBison]

"By standard measures of academic talent, including test scores and academic performance, this year’s applicant pool reflects an unprecedented level of excellence. For example, more than 3,000 applicants scored a perfect 800 on the SAT Critical Reading Test; 4,100 scored 800 on the SAT Math Test; and nearly 3,600 were ranked first in their high school classes."

The freshman class numbers only 1,600. Not so easy to choose, is it?

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2010/04/a-historic-year-for-harvard-admissions/

Changes nothing in principle. You admit applicants to a school based on academic merit. If you have 1000 perfect academic applicants for 800 openings, then you do your best to pick the 800 most academically qualified for those openings and you stay blind to all other factors.

If I was running the admissions department, I would even strike the names and locations of the applicants from view of the selection committee.

[MplsBison]

All of the Ivies adhere to "need-blind" admissions. Can you not accept this fact?

Schools can and do set their own admission criteria, and can get any criteria they want--so long as they don't discriminate based on race, color, creed, gender, etc.

While academic achievement and intellectual potential are important, the Ivies want to attact, education graduate those who will make many contributions in many fields, as well as be leaders in the country and the world. They also want diversity, and not just recial diversity. They Ivies don't want all egg-heads. Admissions policy and criteria has nothing to do with ethics. It's becomin pretty clear you didn't qualify for an Ivy school.

From Harvard's website:

What kind of admissions criteria does Harvard use?

There is no formula for gaining admission to Harvard. Academic accomplishment in high school is important, but the Admissions Committee also considers many other criteria, such as community involvement, leadership and distinction in extracurricular activities, and work experience. The Admissions Committee does not use quotas of any kind. We rely on teachers, counselors, headmasters, and alumni/ae to share information with us about applicants' strength of character, their ability to overcome adversity, and other personal qualities--all of which play a part in the Admissions Committee's decisions.

I never would've applied to an Ivy school. Public school is/was fine for me.

I'm glad to hear that the admissions are need-blind - too bad the coaches do not recruit need-blind.

[MplsBison]

The point, which you didn't care to read, is that the bulk of players who attend Ivy and Patriot schools do so free of charge or with small charges. The NCAA does not classify the PL as non-scholarship, and the assertion that the Ivy league is non-scholarship is also quite difficult to believe based on their generous financial aid packages.

I vote that any type of institutional aid that does not have to be paid back that is given to a student that was admitted to the school even in part because of athletic ability should count against the school as an athletic scholarship equivalency.

Then we'll see just how "non-scholarship" the IL, PFL and DIII schools really are. I bet you 90% of the schools have at least half of their athletic participants on some sort of institutional aid that does not have to be paid back.

[Green26]

Changes nothing in principle. You admit applicants to a school based on academic merit. If you have 1000 perfect academic applicants for 800 openings, then you do your best to pick the 800 most academically qualified for those openings and you stay blind to all other factors.

If I was running the admissions department, I would even strike the names and locations of the applicants from view of the selection committee.

So does this mean that you think a football program should admit only the X fastest running backs and receivers, and the Y largest lineman--but pay no attention to who they think would be the best players on a team? Haha. Your thinking is weird.

[Cooper]

The point, which you didn't care to read, is that the bulk of players who attend Ivy and Patriot schools do so free of charge or with small charges. The NCAA does not classify the PL as non-scholarship, and the assertion that the Ivy league is non-scholarship is also quite difficult to believe based on their generous financial aid packages.

Free of charge or with small charges? Getting even $30,000 in financial aid (an impressive amount, to be sure) still leaves about $22,000 a year before expenses like travel etc. That is not an insubstantial amount.

[Green26]

The point, which you didn't care to read, is that the bulk of players who attend Ivy and Patriot schools do so free of charge or with small charges. The NCAA does not classify the PL as non-scholarship, and the assertion that the Ivy league is non-scholarship is also quite difficult to believe based on their generous financial aid packages.

This statement is not true, at least for the Ivy league. Many players don't receive any financial aid, and lots of players have to pay a large amount of money to attend--even if they get a large amount of financial aid. Cooper is correct on thsi one.

[Green26]

Here's a good article on the Ivy league financial aid situation, including some discussion of athletics.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:18BjSWCxQWwJ:www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/08/30/cornell+football+financvial+aid+in+ivy+league&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

It essentially confirms what several of us have been saying in these various threads recently. The Ivies don't have athletic scholarships or merit-based aid. Only need-based financial aid. However, following the settlement of the US antitrust action against the Ivies and similar schools, which prohibits the fnancial aid offices of these schools from gettting together to give similar financial aid packages with the exact same parent contribution, schools have had more flexibiity with financial aid packages. HYP have the best financial policies/packages, but all or most of the other Ivies are finding ways to keep close to HYP in most respects. Cornell tried to start giving enhanced financial aid packages to athletes, but the league made them stop doing that. Some schools have enhanced financial aid packages for various catetories of students whom the school desires to attract, including athletes. While I don't know exactly what those packages entail, my impression is that they generally include $5,000 - $10,000 more financial aid. If an applicant comes to the financial aid dept of another school with a higher offer of financial aid--whether an athlete or not--then that financial aid office will almost always immediately increase it's financial aid package. This is sometimes referred to as a "squeeze play". I assisted a relative through this process several years ago. In less than a day's time, his aid package was increased about $10,000 to match the other Ivy. The parent contributions ended up being within $100 or $200 of each other. Again, this is not limited to athletes. This is generally being done for students at large.

[soccerguy315]

Changes nothing in principle. You admit applicants to a school based on academic merit. If you have 1000 perfect academic applicants for 800 openings, then you do your best to pick the 800 most academically qualified for those openings and you stay blind to all other factors.

If I was running the admissions department, I would even strike the names and locations of the applicants from view of the selection committee.

If there are 1000 perfect applicants for 800 spots, how can you choose the "best" 800 when their academics are identical?

You realize that the admissions office is building a class, right? They need an RB, QB, and DBs... they also need violinists and trumpet players and tuba players. And geographic diversity. And socioeconomic diversity. They need more than just 4.0 gpas and 1600 SAT scores. Sure, at many schools, they will just go by GPA/SAT, but at the very top, GPA/SAT is not enough to set you apart. Rather the GPA/SAT becomes the start point, not the end point for the decision. They want people who will make the experience at the school diverse and intriguing. They don't want 1000 academic clones who just study all day.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Cornell University has an across-the-board aid policy that doesn't come close to Harvard's (just as its endowment doesn't come close). Loans aren't eliminated for everyone -- just those with family incomes up to $75,000. For other students, there are loans (although there are caps of $3,000 a year for those with family income up to $120,000). But for those admitted to enroll in the fall of 2011 who are also admitted to Harvard, Cornell will match the parental contribution and loan levels of Harvard. And it will do the same for all other Ivies (a few of which are similar to Harvard and a few of which have policies somewhere in between those of Cornell and Harvard). Cornell also says it will "strive" to do the same for those also admitted to Duke and Stanford Universities and to Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

In effect, this is a end-run around the rules of financial aid. Almost all the people who will "qualify" for this are athletes, and it allows Cornell to "scholarship" football players if Harvard gives them an acceptance too.

If anything, this is yet another way that the Ivy League abandons their principles to take care of their own. Put it this way: there would be Holy Hell to pay if the Patriot League gave, say, Georgetown the ability to offer the same privilege that Cornell is getting, i.e., "if you're admitted to Georgetown and Harvard, we'll match your financial aid".

[Green26]

In effect, this is a end-run around the rules of financial aid. Almost all the people who will "qualify" for this are athletes, and it allows Cornell to "scholarship" football players if Harvard gives them an acceptance too.

If anything, this is yet another way that the Ivy League abandons their principles to take care of their own. Put it this way: there would be Holy Hell to pay if the Patriot League gave, say, Georgetown the ability to offer the same privilege that Cornell is getting, i.e., "if you're admitted to Georgetown and Harvard, we'll match your financial aid".

Some of what you said is not accurate, at least for most Ivy schools. They are generally matching the other financial aid amounts for all of their applicants, regardless of whether they are athletes. With Ivy schools doing this (and it been going on for at least 8 or 10 years), it takes away the incentive of HYP or any school to offer too much, i.e. over their general guidelinces, to any applicant--as the other schools are going to match the aid if the applicant takes the better package(s) to the financial aid office. The schools being put in this squeeze generally try to get the applicant to say he/she will come to their school if the aid package is increased, in my experience.

By the way, what principles do you think are being abandoned?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Some of what you said is not accurate, at least for most Ivy schools. They are generally matching the other financial aid amounts for all of their applicants, regardless of whether they are athletes. With Ivy schools doing this (and it been going on for at least 8 or 10 years), it takes away the incentive of HYP or any school to offer too much, i.e. over their general guidelinces, to any applicant--as the other schools are going to match the aid if the applicant takes the better package(s) to the financial aid office. The schools being put in this squeeze generally try to get the applicant to say he/she will come to their school if the aid package is increased, in my experience.

By the way, what principles do you think are being abandoned?

But wait. Football scholarships would allow, in effect, Lehigh and any Patriot League school a method to "match" Harvard's financial aid package. Similar to the end-run that they're allowing Cornell to have - the only difference is where the aid is coming from. But when Patriot League schools offer a hint of doing that, they cry foul, threatening to terminate scheduling arrangements, etc.

Do understand that I'm aware that when the PL was formed, the IL had their "one Ivy" policy on which this is loosely based. But my understanding was that it more worked in reverse before: that the amount of financial aid offered would be the equivalent of what the lowest school could offer. Now, it's the opposite, sort of. Harvard can practically scholarship most, if not all, students who wish to play Division I football. If Havard and Cornell both accept a kid, Cornell is allowed to "scholarship" them. What else would you call it?

In a nutshell, Cornell is allowed scholarships. Yet they want to punish the Patriot League for doing almost the exact same thing. Offering scholarships - yet calling themselves "non-scholarship" - the principle that is abandoned yet again by the IL.

And while this is supposedly for the entire student body, as the article concedes, "Most "are going to go to Harvard anyway," so they won't even ask Cornell to match the aid offer". Not for athletics, however, as the article goes on to say. This is just flat-out funny accounting by the IL to protect Cornell's athletics. How else can this be interpreted?

[MplsBison]

So does this mean that you think a football program should admit only the X fastest running backs and receivers, and the Y largest lineman--but pay no attention to who they think would be the best players on a team? Haha. Your thinking is weird.

The football team should not get to admit any students. Students should only be admitted to the school on academic merit.

If the player makes it into the school, then the coach can start talking about getting his costs paid for by the athletic department.

[MplsBison]

If there are 1000 perfect applicants for 800 spots, how can you choose the "best" 800 when their academics are identical?

You realize that the admissions office is building a class, right? They need an RB, QB, and DBs... they also need violinists and trumpet players and tuba players. And geographic diversity. And socioeconomic diversity. They need more than just 4.0 gpas and 1600 SAT scores. Sure, at many schools, they will just go by GPA/SAT, but at the very top, GPA/SAT is not enough to set you apart. Rather the GPA/SAT becomes the start point, not the end point for the decision. They want people who will make the experience at the school diverse and intriguing. They don't want 1000 academic clones who just study all day.

It's a school. You enroll with the sole intent of studying. Otherwise, you're at the wrong place and obviously wasting your's or someone's money.

And this is not the first time someone in this thread has implied that people who study a lot are not interesting or "diverse" enough to warrant being admitted. That's preposterous. You obviously don't know anyone like that.


If you want to have an intriguing, diverse experience - I suggest volunteering as aid worker in Africa or Haiti, etc. That's real diversity and intrigue.

Talking to a fellow classmate who happens to have been born to wealthy parents in another country that can afford to send their child to school in the US does not really make you all that diverse or intriguing. My $0.02.

[HailSzczur]

The football team should not get to admit any students. Students should only be admitted to the school on academic merit.

If the player makes it into the school, then the coach can start talking about getting his costs paid for by the athletic department.

Well in theory thats the way its supposed to work at any school.....

[MplsBison]

Well in theory thats the way its supposed to work at any school.....

Right - but as was pointed out, if this were true then schools in the Ivy League might not have enough students at the school to form a football team.

If that really is true (something I'm not really convinced of), then why does a school like that even want to have a football team? If the goal of the school is to be an elite academic instutition, what does having a varsity football team have to do with that?