What's the Status of UND "Fighting Sioux" nickname?

[JohnStOnge]

I know I heard they had to quit using the name; which would be a shame. But I am watching a hockey game right now on the "Fighting Sioux" network. It's between Minnesota and UND. The announcers are repeatedly referring to "The Sioux." There is a big traditional "Fighting Sioux" logo in the middle of the hockey rink.

What is going on? I must admit I am hoping this means the "Fighting Sioux" will endure. To me that is one of the coolest nicknames in college sports and there is nothing but respect in it for the Sioux Tribes. The logo is cool too.

Heck, now I see a closeup of the UND uniforms and they have "Sioux" across the front.

[FargoBison]

In the fall of 2011 I believe the nickname will be officially retired and the school will just go by North Dakota until a new nickname is found. Some state legislators are still trying to fight it but it is too little, too late.

[Redhawk2010]

I am sure that they also probably have a grace period to get rid of logos and such. Think of the expense if a school had to drop the logo completely all at one time. Talking basketball courts, football field, hockey rink, etc that definitely is not cheap. Then start replacing everybody's uniforms? Bags?, etc

SEMO changed mascots in 2004-2005. Our football travel bags and most of the trunks, etc still have the old Indians logo on them. Up until a year ago, the basketball courts in the Rec Center had the Indians logo still on them. And you can still see the Indians logo on our football field although they attempted to cover it with the new Redhawk logo.

[darell1976]

UND will offically retire the Fighting Sioux name on August 15, 2011. They have begun replacing some logos on jerseys (but obviously not the hockey jersey). As FargoBison said there are some in the ND legislature that have bills trying to make it a state law that UND must NOT retire the name. It is led by Al Carlson R-Fargo....NDSU grad imagine that. But AG Wayne Stenjum says there are constitutional barriors these laws face, plus if UND remains the Fighting Sioux they cannot host any playoff games, nor can they be called the Fighting Sioux or wear the logo on road playoff games as they would go back onto the NCAA sanctions list. The big question from some Sioux fans is what does the Big Sky think of all of this?? IMO its time to move on. We tried. The deadline for both tribal approval was November 30, 2010 so its a little to late to start this up now.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/189627/

[JohnStOnge]

Ok. I was hoping something had changed. I don't like hockey but found myself actually enjoing watching a hockey game last night. First time that's happened since I watched the USA beat the USSR in the 1980 olympics. The atmosphere was amazing. Packed house, lots of noise, lots of intensity. And to me the "Sioux" thing was part of it. To me that nickname is a little more associated with the tradition of the school than is normally the case with "Native American" mascots. This is kind of like if Florida State would've been forced to give up the Seminole moniker. I know you guys on the inside are tired of it and ready to move on but to me, looking in from the outside, this is a real shame. And that tribal council that wouldn't allow a vote comes off as composed of some real anall spincters.

[darell1976]

Ok. I was hoping something had changed. I don't like hockey but found myself actually enjoing watching a hockey game last night. First time that's happened since I watched the USA beat the USSR in the 1980 olympics. The atmosphere was amazing. Packed house, lots of noise, lots of intensity. And to me the "Sioux" thing was part of it. To me that nickname is a little more associated with the tradition of the school than is normally the case with "Native American" mascots. This is kind of like if Florida State would've been forced to give up the Seminole moniker. I know you guys on the inside are tired of it and ready to move on but to me, looking in from the outside, this is a real shame. And that tribal council that wouldn't allow a vote comes off as composed of some real anall spincters.

Glad you enjoyed the game. The atmosphere at the Ralph is amazing. Its the 3rd largest hockey arena in college hockey (behind Wisconsin, and Nebraska-Omaha). It cost $100+ million dollars of private money. Its rented to UND for ONE DOLLAR!!! So this is the real icky part of the NCAA settlement. UND would have get rid of a lot of logos but NOT all in the Ralph except...UND does NOT own the Ralph, and the Ralph said they are NOT changing anything. Kind of a dilema. Game 2 of the series is tonight at 7pm Central time and usually at the end of the 2nd game there is a 99.9% of a brawl.

[TheValleyRaider]

The Ralph is easily one of the msot amazing hockey arenas I've ever seen. Just incredible to look at, I'd love to see a game there some time...

[darell1976]

http://www.theralph.com/

[JBB]

Ok. I was hoping something had changed. I don't like hockey but found myself actually enjoing watching a hockey game last night. First time that's happened since I watched the USA beat the USSR in the 1980 olympics. The atmosphere was amazing. Packed house, lots of noise, lots of intensity. And to me the "Sioux" thing was part of it. To me that nickname is a little more associated with the tradition of the school than is normally the case with "Native American" mascots. This is kind of like if Florida State would've been forced to give up the Seminole moniker. I know you guys on the inside are tired of it and ready to move on but to me, looking in from the outside, this is a real shame. And that tribal council that wouldn't allow a vote comes off as composed of some real anall spincters.

Did they talk about the extra security needed because of the off-ice violence the series is famous for? Last year a man was assaulted and had his skull cracked.

The laws being presented are certainly prompted by behind the scenes UND supporters using the cover of grandstanders such as Carlson, who's ego knows no bounds, not only as a means to impress and endear support from the Grand Forks contingent but also as a backhanded way to destroy the State Board of Higher Education. Passing of the laws will certainly bring a constitutional challenge since the decisions of the State Board of Higher Education cannot be legislated.

So, you have two ugly situations:

1) A university that believes it is above the law
2) A constitutional challenge to the SBoHE.

The third issue is the disregard for the Tribal intentions. For 30 yrs the University ignored the Tribes, then the pushed them into a corner demanding elections, and now this new series of proposals would simply ignore them. Its ugly, has been ugly and remains ugly.

[JohnStOnge]

The third issue is the disregard for the Tribal intentions. For 30 yrs the University ignored the Tribes, then the pushed them into a corner demanding elections, and now this new series of proposals would simply ignore them. Its ugly, has been ugly and remains ugly.

I seriously doubt that a majority or even a substantial minority of people in the Sioux tribes cared that UND had the Sioux mascot over those 30 years. I suspect it's a matter of a small group of instigators who decided to convince people that they should care about something like that. Even then, the majority of the only tribe allowed to vote voted to allow UND to keep the mascot. Only a true anal spincter sitting on a governing board would refuse to just go ahead and have the tribe vote.

But really, it should never have even have come to that. The NCAA was and is being ridiculous in making a rule that schools can't have "Native American" mascots and any Native American who worries about it is being ridiculous as well. Like UND using "Sioux" as its mascot negatively impacts anybody's life. Please. And to me it goes beyond the NCAA. To me it is sick that our culture has reached the point where stuff like this happens. If it's progress it's progress in a bad direction.

[Sec310]

I seriously doubt that a majority or even a substantial minority of people in the Sioux tribes cared that UND had the Sioux mascot over those 30 years. I suspect it's a matter of a small group of instigators who decided to convince people that they should care about something like that. Even then, the majority of the only tribe allowed to vote voted to allow UND to keep the mascot. Only a true anal spincter sitting on a governing board would refuse to just go ahead and have the tribe vote.

But really, it should never have even have come to that. The NCAA was and is being ridiculous in making a rule that schools can't have "Native American" mascots and any Native American who worries about it is being ridiculous as well. Like UND using "Sioux" as its mascot negatively impacts anybody's life. Please. And to me it goes beyond the NCAA. To me it is sick that our culture has reached the point where stuff like this happens. If it's progress it's progress in a bad direction.

Great post, you drunk mick or meatball dago or kosher kraut.

[dmksioux]

I seriously doubt that a majority or even a substantial minority of people in the Sioux tribes cared that UND had the Sioux mascot over those 30 years. I suspect it's a matter of a small group of instigators who decided to convince people that they should care about something like that. Even then, the majority of the only tribe allowed to vote voted to allow UND to keep the mascot. Only a true anal spincter sitting on a governing board would refuse to just go ahead and have the tribe vote.

But really, it should never have even have come to that. The NCAA was and is being ridiculous in making a rule that schools can't have "Native American" mascots and any Native American who worries about it is being ridiculous as well. Like UND using "Sioux" as its mascot negatively impacts anybody's life. Please. And to me it goes beyond the NCAA. To me it is sick that our culture has reached the point where stuff like this happens. If it's progress it's progress in a bad direction.

You seem to have a pretty good understanding of what has taken place in regards to the nickname. A few other tidbits to consider...UND has the largest Native American student population of Non Tribal Universities and it offers the most Native American Programs of any Public University. It's unfortunate that it has to go.

JBB likes to throw lots of conspiracy stories about UND around. Most Bison and Sioux fans see the Bill to save the Sioux name as nothing more than political grandstanding and trying cover themselves as well as get their name in the public eye. If they truly believed in keeping the name, these bills would have been presented two years ago at the last congressional session.

The name is gone...the only way it has the slightest of chances is if the Standing Rock tribe were to come forward and allow a vote. The likelihood of that happening is very very slim. Glad you enjoyed the hockey game against the Goophs. Most of our home hockey games are on national tv along with a few basketball and football games.

[ngineer]

Considering this litigious society, they could adopt the name Fighting Sue, with a female lawyer taking a fighting stance like the Notre Dame Leprachaun, with her 'briefs'.

[dmksioux]

Considering this litigious society, they could adopt the name Fighting Sue, with a female lawyer taking a fighting stance like the Notre Dame Leprachaun, with her 'briefs'.

Haven't you heard? It appears we already have a new nickname...

http://suhaki.com/

Here is a story about it: http://www.startribune.com/sports/113843459.html


Of course it doesn't work so well for our non-hockey teams...

[Poly's Brutality]

Haven't you heard? It appears we already have a new nickname...

http://suhaki.com/

Here is a story about it: http://www.startribune.com/sports/113843459.html
... and another: http://sloblogs.thetribunenews.com/collegebeat/2011/01/17/no-joke-north-dakota-should-go-with-suhaki/
Of course it doesn't work so well for our non-hockey teams...

And another: http://sloblogs.thetribunenews.com/collegebeat/2011/01/17/no-joke-north-dakota-should-go-with-suhaki/ ....

[bulldog]

A boy named Sioux.

You're welcome.

[DJKyR0]

Of course it doesn't work so well for our non-hockey teams...

Isn't that the chief philosophy of UND's athletic dept anyway?

I keed, I keed. Please don't kill me.

[dmksioux]

Isn't that the chief philosophy of UND's athletic dept anyway?

I keed, I keed. Please don't kill me.

Careful how you word your posts...don't want to offend anyone ;):D

[darell1976]

You seem to have a pretty good understanding of what has taken place in regards to the nickname. A few other tidbits to consider...UND has the largest Native American student population of Non Tribal Universities and it offers the most Native American Programs of any Public University. It's unfortunate that it has to go.

JBB likes to throw lots of conspiracy stories about UND around. Most Bison and Sioux fans see the Bill to save the Sioux name as nothing more than political grandstanding and trying cover themselves as well as get their name in the public eye. If they truly believed in keeping the name, these bills would have been presented two years ago at the last congressional session.

The name is gone...the only way it has the slightest of chances is if the Standing Rock tribe were to come forward and allow a vote. The likelihood of that happening is very very slim. Glad you enjoyed the hockey game against the Goophs. Most of our home hockey games are on national tv along with a few basketball and football games.

Or they allow the pipe ceremony...for those that don't know in 1969 leaders of the Standing Rock Tribe held a ceremonial pipe ceremony giving their blessings to UND for using the Fighting Sioux nickname that can NEVER be undone. However the younger members of the tribes (and obviously the NCAA) don't think this "traditional" act merrits anything since there was no written agreement.

[JBB]

I seriously doubt that a majority or even a substantial minority of people in the Sioux tribes cared that UND had the Sioux mascot over those 30 years. I suspect it's a matter of a small group of instigators who decided to convince people that they should care about something like that. Even then, the majority of the only tribe allowed to vote voted to allow UND to keep the mascot. Only a true anal spincter sitting on a governing board would refuse to just go ahead and have the tribe vote.

But really, it should never have even have come to that. The NCAA was and is being ridiculous in making a rule that schools can't have "Native American" mascots and any Native American who worries about it is being ridiculous as well. Like UND using "Sioux" as its mascot negatively impacts anybody's life. Please. And to me it goes beyond the NCAA. To me it is sick that our culture has reached the point where stuff like this happens. If it's progress it's progress in a bad direction.

You are presumptuous and wrong. It was pressure from native americans themselves that prompted action by the NCAA. They came under tremendous pressure from around the country forcing action nationwide. UND is only one of the many schools affected and certainly the most stubborn. It was years of your kind of thinking by UND that has alienated the tribes against the use of the nickname.

An interesting article by former North Dakota Lieutenant Governor Lloyd Amdahl appeared in todays Fargo Forum. He made some of the same points I have made in this thread. In part he had this to say:


At this late date, a favorable vote by Standing Rock residents would be of questionable value. There is no doubt that the legitimacy of the vote would be attacked as unrepresentative or illegal by opponents of the logo. A favorable vote may no longer convince other teams or the NCAA that the logo should remain in use.
http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/305267/group/Opinion/

[darell1976]

You are presumptuous and wrong. It was pressure from native americans themselves that prompted action by the NCAA. They came under tremendous pressure from around the country forcing action nationwide. UND is only one of the many schools affected and certainly the most stubborn. It was years of your kind of thinking by UND that has alienated the tribes against the use of the nickname.

An interesting article by former North Dakota Lieutenant Governor Lloyd Amdahl appeared in todays Fargo Forum. He made some of the same points I have made in this thread. In part he had this to say:

Let me rephrase your statement. It was pressure from a small minority of Native Americans themselves that prompted action from the NCAA.

Remember the infamous Sports Illustrated poll.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/magazine/08/17/indian.wars030402/index.html


Indeed, a recent SI poll suggests that although Native American activists are virtually united in opposition to the use of Indian nicknames and mascots, the Native American population sees the issue far differently. Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81% of Native American respondents said no. As for pro sports, 83% of Native American respondents said teams should not stop using Indian nicknames, mascots, characters and symbols. Opinion is far more divided on reservations, yet a majority (67%) there said the usage by pro teams should not cease, while 32% said it should.

67% of Spirit Lake voters approve of the Fighting Sioux nickname....that number should be about the same on the Standing Rock but their tribal council will not let them vote simply because they know they don't have a majority against the Sioux name. UND as being the most stubborn?? Florida State was the first team on the list about ready to sue the NCAA. Just imagine if they did indeed go to court. If these NA protesters and the NCAA was serious about their list why make exceptions and start knocking off teams even though they had tribal support? The answer $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[JBB]

The unscientific SI poll is certainly reliable. That old saw comes out from time to time when "proof" is necessary for a position that has no support. The Tribal votes are something not part of their culture. That was imposed on them by pressure from the UND contingent.

This didnt even originate in North Dakota. It was national in scope. The focus is on North Dakota and its Tribes now because of UNDs unwillingness to cooperate, compromise or otherwise deal in good faith.

There is an excuse for everything at UND concerning this issue, and it has gone on for approximately 40 yrs without resolution. That says something about UND and it isnt good.

[darell1976]

The unscientific SI poll is certainly reliable. That old saw comes out from time to time when "proof" is necessary for a position that has no support. The Tribal votes are something not part of their culture. That was imposed on them by pressure from the UND contingent.

There is an excuse for everything at UND concerning this issue, and it has gone on for approximately 40 yrs without resolution. That says something about UND and it isnt good.

How do you explain the Standing Rock pipe ceremony of 1969 giving UND its blessing and full support of the Fighting Sioux name that can NEVER be undone. That says something about the Standing Rock who talk about the old ways and their tradition but don't want to follow through with it, and as for Spirit Lake in 2000 they had a written approval for the Sioux nickname but I guess that wasn't good enough. I like what was said by a native american on ESPN when talking about the Seminole nickname and the NCAA.."I like how white people tell us natives what we should be offended by." UND is very Native American friendly with lots of Indian programs including the Indians in Medicine program. Putting more doctors on reservations.....JBB how many Indian programs does NDSU have?? Since their nickname is a sacred animal by native americans I would think that number should be pretty high too. Maybe the tribes should vote to see if the use of the Bison name, logo, and Thundar the mascot is approved by natives. I am sure the image of a Bison getting blowed by an indian on t-shirts are in good taste with the slogan Sioux sucks.

[JohnStOnge]

While I would bet that the majority of "Native Americans" indeed do not give a cruising copulation about whether or not sports teams use names like "Indians," "Seminoles," "Chippewas," or even "Redskins," I frankly don't care. If they do the problem is more with them than with the organizations using the names. We would be much better off as a culture is we just said "get a life" in the face of this kind of stuff. And don't give me the "we took their land" stuff. I can pretty much assume that if you randomly pick any human being on the planet they have ancestors who had their land taken.

[darell1976]

While I would bet that the majority of "Native Americans" indeed do not give a cruising copulation about whether or not sports teams use names like "Indians," "Seminoles," "Chippewas," or even "Redskins," I frankly don't care. If they do the problem is more with them than with the organizations using the names. We would be much better off as a culture is we just said "get a life" in the face of this kind of stuff. And don't give me the "we took their land" stuff. I can pretty much assume that if you randomly pick any human being on the planet they have ancestors who had their land taken.

Like a lot of people have said. You take away the nicknames is that really going to solve the problems on the reservations? Alcoholism, joblessness, poverty, lack of healthcare. Isn't there more important things to be fighting for than a nickname?

[DJKyR0]

How do you explain the Standing Rock pipe ceremony of 1969 giving UND its blessing and full support of the Fighting Sioux name that can NEVER be undone. That says something about the Standing Rock who talk about the old ways and their tradition but don't want to follow through with it, and as for Spirit Lake in 2000 they had a written approval for the Sioux nickname but I guess that wasn't good enough. I like what was said by a native american on ESPN when talking about the Seminole nickname and the NCAA.."I like how white people tell us natives what we should be offended by." UND is very Native American friendly with lots of Indian programs including the Indians in Medicine program. Putting more doctors on reservations.....JBB how many Indian programs does NDSU have?? Since their nickname is a sacred animal by native americans I would think that number should be pretty high too. Maybe the tribes should vote to see if the use of the Bison name, logo, and Thundar the mascot is approved by natives. I am sure the image of a Bison getting blowed by an indian on t-shirts are in good taste with the slogan Sioux sucks.

If the "underground" shirts were approved by the university I'd agree wholeheartedly. Otherwise that's a pretty ridiculous statement. Besides, the analog would be to have North Dakota's buffalo population vote on NDSU's mascot of choice.

[gjw007]

Let's forget JBB's rant at UND as he will never say anything in a positive light for UND and his comments cannot be taken at face value as they are presented only to make UND look bad and don't fully view the entire situation. There are legitimate arguments for and against the name but these are only secondary for those like JBB whose only desire is to make UND look bad. It has only made him look bad.

There is no indication that the tribes in North Dakota cared one way or the other but polls at the reservations taken have consistently shown that the majority of the tribal members are in favor of the use of the name. There has been some though who do oppose the use of the name. One problem has been that various members in leadership position at Standing Rock have refused to let the members of the tribe vote. Among other reasons, they have said the name is not a pressing issue. It is more interesting that some of the people who actively opposed the name because of 'racism' are those such as the President of St Cloud State University where there have been reported painting of Nazi symbols on the St Cloud campus. The desire to remove Indian names appears not so much that what the universities are doing or whether they are racist or not but as a way to control the apparent racism on its own campus.

It probably is not wise to discount the importance of the Bison to the native Americans. A more interesting aspect of the Bison name and logo is that it represented part of the US government's Indian policy to extreminate the Indians in the later part of the 1800s after the civil war. One of the method was the reduction of their food source, the Bison. To a degree, the movie Dancing with Wolves tried to show this. All-in-all, it is a sad period of US policy toward the native Americans. Prior to that, there had been conflicts and a 'Indian problem' but never an attempt to exterminate them. Given this history and the venom expressed by those who oppose the use of Indian names and the logos, it is not a stretch to include the Bison name and logo into this conversation. In the end, the NCAA policy is worse than the use of the names as the end result is that average American forgets they even exist and therefore gets lost in the dim of history, just a footnote in the history books. Very sad.

[Gil Dobie]

Let's forget JBB's rant at UND as he will never say anything in a positive light for UND and his comments cannot be taken at face value as they are presented only to make UND look bad and don't fully view the entire situation. There are legitimate arguments for and against the name but these are only secondary for those like JBB whose only desire is to make UND look bad. It has only made him look bad.

There is no indication that the tribes in North Dakota cared one way or the other but polls at the reservations taken have consistently shown that the majority of the tribal members are in favor of the use of the name. There has been some though who do oppose the use of the name. One problem has been that various members in leadership position at Standing Rock have refused to let the members of the tribe vote. Among other reasons, they have said the name is not a pressing issue. It is more interesting that some of the people who actively opposed the name because of 'racism' are those such as the President of St Cloud State University where there have been reported painting of Nazi symbols on the St Cloud campus. The desire to remove Indian names appears not so much that what the universities are doing or whether they are racist or not but as a way to control the apparent racism on its own campus.

It probably is not wise to discount the importance of the Bison to the native Americans. A more interesting aspect of the Bison name and logo is that it represented part of the US government's Indian policy to extreminate the Indians in the later part of the 1800s after the civil war. One of the method was the reduction of their food source, the Bison. To a degree, the movie Dancing with Wolves tried to show this. All-in-all, it is a sad period of US policy toward the native Americans. Prior to that, there had been conflicts and a 'Indian problem' but never an attempt to exterminate them. Given this history and the venom expressed by those who oppose the use of Indian names and the logos, it is not a stretch to include the Bison name and logo into this conversation. In the end, the NCAA policy is worse than the use of the names as the end result is that average American forgets they even exist and therefore gets lost in the dim of history, just a footnote in the history books. Very sad.

FWIW, I remember getting a program at a game in St Cloud several years ago. There was a picture of a St Cloud Alum in a Chicago Black Hawks uniform, and the Black Hawks logo was blurred out, as it is very similar to UND's.

[darell1976]

FWIW, I remember getting a program at a game in St Cloud several years ago. There was a picture of a St Cloud Alum in a Chicago Black Hawks uniform, and the Black Hawks logo was blurred out, as it is very similar to UND's.

When UND plays St. Cloud State they don't recognize our name and logo. Their announcers both on tv and in the stadium only say UND or North Dakota the logo they use on tv is UND's interlocking ND logo, and in their programs the name Sioux and the logo is not to be found.

[JBB]

Lets drop legitimate points in favor of gwj007s rambling none sense. Long paragraphs cant cover up his fallacious arguments. He will never agree with those opposed to dropping the abusive nickname so it follows he has no legitimate foundation for anything he says supporting its continued use.

Its probably not wise to reach as far as he has to make a point on the offensive nature of the Buffalo as mascot when in fact Sioux was chosen in response to the name change at NDSU from Aggies to Bison because the Sioux Tribes hunted buffalo.

Its probably not correct to impose gwj007s idea of democracy on the Tribes either because it is not their tradition to vote on matters that come before the Tribal Councils. Thats an invention of the UND supporters.

What is wise and correct is to respect the decision that has been made and stop throwing out red herrings. What is happening in the State Legislature is divisive and wrong. The issue has played itself out over the past half century and UND has been unable to establish a functional relationship with the Tribes. In fact it has been just the opposite.

Examples abound stretching over the entire history of the ill fated name of racist and unsavory behavior disrespecting the nature and character of the Tribes. It doesn't need to be rehashed here.

The fact is one point of view has prevailed. Trashing the constitutional authority of the SBoHE to appease a few UND supporters is not wise, its self serving and a glaring example of how some politicians view the government as a vehicle for personal gain rather than pubic service.

[JBB]

I would like to add that if DjKYROs fine suggestion of a vote by the buffalo population in North Dakota were to force NDSU to drop the name I would insist that no further support be given to the buffalo herds in the form of game management, game preserves and protection from hunting. Any buffalo programs should be scrapped immediately.

If the buffalo herds don't want to be honored by NDSU than to heck with them. We have gone the extra mile and given millions in taxpayer funded research to advance their condition but all they do is eat grass.

Its also a fact that its the fault of the other schools like UND and EWU that use degrading and insulting cheers and imagery disrespecting the buffalo. If it weren't for them everything would be fine.

[darell1976]

I would like to add that if DjKYROs fine suggestion of a vote by the buffalo population in North Dakota were to force NDSU to drop the name I would insist that no further support be given to the buffalo herds in the form of game management, game preserves and protection from hunting. Any buffalo programs should be scrapped immediately.

If the buffalo herds don't want to be honored by NDSU than to heck with them. We have gone the extra mile and given millions in taxpayer funded research to advance their condition but all they do is eat grass.

Its also a fact that its the fault of the other schools like UND and EWU that use degrading and insulting cheers and imagery disrespecting the buffalo. If it weren't for them everything would be fine.

I honor them between my bun with some cheese, ketchup and mustard. MMMMMm. Go Bison!!!

[gjw007]

Lets drop legitimate points in favor of gwj007s rambling none sense. Long paragraphs cant cover up his fallacious arguments. He will never agree with those opposed to dropping the abusive nickname so it follows he has no legitimate foundation for anything he says supporting its continued use.

Its probably not wise to reach as far as he has to make a point on the offensive nature of the Buffalo as mascot when in fact Sioux was chosen in response to the name change at NDSU from Aggies to Bison because the Sioux Tribes hunted buffalo.

Its probably not correct to impose gwj007s idea of democracy on the Tribes either because it is not their tradition to vote on matters that come before the Tribal Councils. Thats an invention of the UND supporters.

What is wise and correct is to respect the decision that has been made and stop throwing out red herrings. What is happening in the State Legislature is divisive and wrong. The issue has played itself out over the past half century and UND has been unable to establish a functional relationship with the Tribes. In fact it has been just the opposite.

Examples abound stretching over the entire history of the ill fated name of racist and unsavory behavior disrespecting the nature and character of the Tribes. It doesn't need to be rehashed here.

The fact is one point of view has prevailed. Trashing the constitutional authority of the SBoHE to appease a few UND supporters is not wise, its self serving and a glaring example of how some politicians view the government as a vehicle for personal gain rather than pubic service.
Typical rant by JBB. One, I recognized opposing views have legitimate concerns, you haven't. Second, I have never questioned the SBoHE authority, find a comment where I ever did. You can't because it doesn't exist. Third the comments about votes on the tribes were in newspapers. Do you read? Fourth, I extended a point that there was an attempt to exterminate the Indians in the late 1800s after the civil war and destroying their source of food was part of that strategy. Again, you can read this in the history books if you choose. I also noted that this was a sad part of our history. Can I assume for you that it was a glorious part of our history? The point of all this was there is a relationship between the native Americans and the bison but apparently you wish to ignore it not whether they should vote on the name. Re-read my comments and you don't see any place where I say the tribes should vote on the use of the name, only that you cannot quickly overlook that there is a relationship which I describe. Also note, I have not trashed NDSU either; can you say the same about UND.. Fifth, I never went into a discussion of tribal democracy, only what has been posted in the newspaper. I never even attempted to explain tribal politics and to be honest I don't understand them even though I do have relatives who are native Americans. So please don't put words in my mouth that I haven't said.

Really JBB, you have to do better.

[JBB]

what you attempted gwj007 was to make a fool of yourself and you have done a wonderful job. xhurrayx

My response wasn't to you but the valid points raised in the thread. You made no valid points.

I'm still on board with the buffalo vote, dont you think thats a good idea? Do you think the buffalos are deserving of the honor bestowed on them? Do you feel the SBoHE has the right to rule over the buffalo? Do you think the state legislature has the right to overrule the SBoHE on the buffalo issue? Do you really think there is a buffalo issue? Do you know what a red herring is? Do you know how to construct a valid argument focused on the issue at hand: The Status of the UND Nickname?

[bjtheflamesfan]

Ok you guys...can you take this to PMs because I know this is a message board but personal disagreements ought to be resolved using "personal messages"...

[AshevilleApp2]

Ok you guys...can you take this to PMs because I know this is a message board but personal disagreements ought to be resolved using "personal messages"...

Party pooper.

[darell1976]

what you attempted gwj007 was to make a fool of yourself and you have done a wonderful job. xhurrayx

My response wasn't to you but the valid points raised in the thread. You made no valid points.

I'm still on board with the buffalo vote, dont you think thats a good idea? Do you think the buffalos are deserving of the honor bestowed on them? Do you feel the SBoHE has the right to rule over the buffalo? Do you think the state legislature has the right to overrule the SBoHE on the buffalo issue? Do you really think there is a buffalo issue? Do you know what a red herring is? Do you know how to construct a valid argument focused on the issue at hand: The Status of the UND Nickname?

So if the Native Americans see NDSU's mascot Thundar offensive and tells the school to get rid of him...would you be on board? Or would you fight it? You may think its a joke JBB but PC is running wild and everything is offensive to someone. The only nicknames that are NOT offensive to everyone may be the color ones like the Big Red or Big Green.

[Redhawk2010]

The only nicknames that are NOT offensive to everyone may be the color ones like the Big Red or Big Green.

I'm sorry.. Big Red sounds offensive to me. It looks like blood....



LOL

[darell1976]

I'm sorry.. Big Red sounds offensive to me. It looks like blood....



LOL

Reminds me of chewing gum.xlolx

[Hammerhead]

I'll be sad to see the Fighting Sioux name going away since they were NDSU's rival for so long. I hope they don't go with something lame like the Stanford Cardinal.

[DJKyR0]

So if the Native Americans see NDSU's mascot Thundar offensive and tells the school to get rid of him...would you be on board? Or would you fight it?

I would tell them to go to grass, last I checked a Bison is not a person or any secular group. Native Americans? Not the same. Please tell me you see the difference.

[JBB]

I'm put in a corner. The board doesnt want me to get into the middle of this thing because of the way others react but I have to agree with DJ. Naturally, of course, if there were a ground-swell from the buffalo I'm sure the diplomatic skills at NDSU would resolve the situation in far less time then 40 or 50 years. That seems like a long time?

[DJKyR0]

Actually, related story (albeit a pretty old one) that turns the tables just a little: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Whites

[darell1976]

I would tell them to go to grass, last I checked a Bison is not a person or any secular group. Native Americans? Not the same. Please tell me you see the difference.

I know the difference I just use it as PC running a muck and also it showed up in a newspaper once that since the buffalo are sacred animals of Native Americans that the NDSU name, logo, and mascot are not safe. (IMO they are). I never saw that site on the Fighting Whities bball team. It reminds me of the bar and grill in East Grand Forks called Whities. I wonder if the NCAA would put them on a list if a college team had that nickname but then again they didn't put Fighting Irish, Aztecs, Fighting Dutchman, Dutch, Flying Dutchmen, Spartans, Vikings, etc. If you include 1 group (Native Americans) why not all of them. http://www.smargon.net/nicknames/

[Sec310]

I know the difference I just use it as PC running a muck and also it showed up in a newspaper once that since the buffalo are sacred animals of Native Americans that the NDSU name, logo, and mascot are not safe. (IMO they are). I never saw that site on the Fighting Whities bball team. It reminds me of the bar and grill in East Grand Forks called Whities. I wonder if the NCAA would put them on a list if a college team had that nickname but then again they didn't put Fighting Irish, Aztecs, Fighting Dutchman, Dutch, Flying Dutchmen, Spartans, Vikings, etc. If you include 1 group (Native Americans) why not all of them. http://www.smargon.net/nicknames/

Yeah good thinking, you dago, mick, pollack, or kraut!!

[UNH_BLUE]

Excellent thread. I learned a lot about the history of the nickname.

Fighting Sioux has always been my favorite college nicknames and I'm upset they won't be allowed to continue using it due to a few PC pussies.

[EmeraldCityBison]

FWIW, this is a BISON (Bison bison):
http://kalafudra.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/buffalo-bison_304.jpg

This is a buffalo (Bubalus bubalis):
http://www.billybear4kids.com/animal/whose-toes/buffalo/TrueBuffalo.jpg

*Not the same.

*Sorry for the nit pick. I was a Zoology major.

[darell1976]

FWIW, this is a BISON (Bison bison):
http://kalafudra.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/buffalo-bison_304.jpg

This is a buffalo (Bubalus bubalis):
http://www.billybear4kids.com/animal/whose-toes/buffalo/TrueBuffalo.jpg

*Not the same.

*Sorry for the nit pick. I was a Zoology major.

Jamestown BUFFALO museum.

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1156037640025425272TQajUA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bison


The American bison (Bison bison), also commonly known as the American buffalo

Both names are acceptable.

[EmeraldCityBison]

Jamestown BUFFALO museum.

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1156037640025425272TQajUA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bison



Both names are acceptable.

Commonly known as is not the same as acceptable or correct. However I do acknowledge that most call them buffalo.

[darell1976]

I get annoyed when people call NDSU Bison(with a s sound) not the Bison (Bizon with a z sound).

[DJKyR0]

I get annoyed when people call NDSU Bison(with a s sound) not the Bison (Bizon with a z sound).

Imagine how we feel. Or with "The BisonS start the drive at..."

[darell1976]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/191429/

Things getting interesting in Bismarck!! Stay tuned!


Several enrolled members of the Standing Rock tribe also spoke for the nickname and the bills designed to sustain it.

Archie Fool Bear provided a history of his efforts to arrange a tribal vote on the issue, and he argued that the Standing Rock Tribal Council "does not have the power to take the name away" after it was authorized by the 1969 pipe ceremony.

The council’s refusal to allow a popular vote and to thwart UND’s continuing use of the symbols "is dishonoring those people who gave the name," he said.

"They don’t want the people to be heard because they know what the outcome is going to be."



Diane Gates, an enrolled member at Standing Rock, said her father, Edward Loon, was among the elders who participated in the 1969 ceremony.

"He told us that our people must live both cultures and reach out and get an education to achieve their dreams," she said. "We must respect and honor and learn from each other."

Linus End of Horn, who said he is a blood descendant of Chief Gall, "who stood beside Sitting Bull," attended the 2008 flag ceremony with other members of his family. He was on leave from the U.S. armed forces at the time.

"I am a fighting Sioux," he said, and the experience at UND convinced him that "we as Sioux people will always be remembered through this school" and its use of the name and logo.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Vikings, Crusaders, Aggies, Spartans, Trojans, Buccaneers, Raiders, Pirates, Vandals, Minutemen, Pygmies, Cowboys, Hoosiers, Cornhuskers, Lumberjacks, Islanders, Knights, Cavaliers, Tarheels, Rebels, Colonels, Mountaineers, Hilltoppers.....these are all mascots that refer to humans. The only one among these that is "offensive" to the PC Police belongs to the Old Miss Rebels. I guess Rebels and Indians are groups whose place in history needs to be controlled and regulated.

Trojans, Spartans, and Vandals refer to specific people. Sioux, Seminole, Chippewa, and Mocs refer to specific people. Knights, Cavaliers and Minutemen refer to types of fighters as do Warriors and Braves. Chief is a title or rank like Governors, Commodores, Colonels.

Neither the NCAA nor individual schools nor legislative bodies should even engage in something so ridiculous as the protest of a school mascot. In an effort to "not offend anyone", we've become a society where the only people who are fair game are Caucasian, Heterosexual, Christian Males. Attacking this group is OK and especially encouraged if they're politically Conservative and mandatory if Southern.

Maybe we'd all be safer following the Scotsdale Artichokes example in choosing a mascot.