Price to Join Division 1 Athletics Going Up

[superman7515]

NCAA president Emmert sets no-nonsense tone in address (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2011-01-13-ncaa-emmert_N.htm)


Pricier neighborhood: The Division I Legislative Council approved new conditions for joining the highest-profile division, including a far steeper application fee expected to range from $900,000 to $1.3 million. Reclassifying schools now pay $15,000. The action, designed to stem the division's rapid growth, also requires a standing invitation from a D-I conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NCAA president Emmert sets no-nonsense tone in address (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2011-01-13-ncaa-emmert_N.htm)

This is the prototypical "they're so mad at Ohio State, they're going to put Cleveland State on three more year's probation" way of business of the NCAA. It will do little to nothing about schools that want to go to FBS conferences that want them (since they have plenty of money to pay the NCAA for conference movement) but it will do volumes for, say, D-II schools going to a D-I FCS conference, where $900,000 to $1.3 million is far, far more than the athletics department is expected to bring in.

Add to this the freeze in movement in FCS conferences moving en masse to FBS - it seems like a bad situation to me. :(

[DFW HOYA]

I wouldn't be as worried about an entrance fee for Division I as the suggestion of an annual fee. How much would your school pay to stay in the division?

[Go...gate]

Ouch. Another roadblock to a possible ascension of schools such as Hopkins, Union, RPI, Gettysburg etc. to becoming members of the Patriot League.

[bluehenbillk]

So does this also mean that a FCS school would have to play that to play FBS??

[CFBfan]

Ouch. Another roadblock to a possible ascension of schools such as Hopkins, Union, RPI, Gettysburg etc. to becoming members of the Patriot League.

is there ANYTHING out there that any of these schools are even thinking about the PL??
I see them and others mentioned all the time, are any interested in changing?

[superman7515]

I wouldn't think so. That's to join Division 1, which FCS is already a member of. There aren't seperate Legislative Councils for FCS & FBS because the council oversees all D1 sports, not just football. Now, if someone wants to move up to D1 and doesn't have a football team, say for basketball purposes, this is probably prohibitively too much now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I wouldn't think so. That's to join Division 1, which FCS is already a member of. There aren't seperate Legislative Councils for FCS & FBS because the council oversees all D1 sports, not just football. Now, if someone wants to move up to D1 and doesn't have a football team, say for basketball purposes, this is probably prohibitively too much now.

But in typical NCAA fashion, in an effort from preventing the next Seattle U.'s from moving up in basketball they've made it prohibitive for the next North Dakota State to move up in all sports.

Meanwhile, if the Big East wants to expand to, say, 30 teams, what's another million dollars?

[Sly Fox]

Anyone at all surprised the IOC, er, NCAA fat cats would want to further pad their pockets. I mean really, if a school is serious about stepping up to meet the scholarship & number of sports required for Division I membership then all this is doing is tacking on some extra charges. Typical NCAA.

[DG Cowboy]

Sounds like a country club to me.

[Go...gate]

is there ANYTHING out there that any of these schools are even thinking about the PL??
I see them and others mentioned all the time, are any interested in changing?

No, not really, though at one time the idea of a Division III FB school moving up (as Fordham and Georgetown once did) seemed like a plausible way to add an all-sports member to the PL. With this legislation, which will probably be enacted, that ship has sailed.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Ouch. Another roadblock to a possible ascension of schools such as Hopkins, Union, RPI, Gettysburg etc. to becoming members of the Patriot League.

All of those schools (plus Rochester) can afford it if the want to move up. Non-flagship state schools will have a tough time squeezing that kind of money out of legislators, though.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

My favorite quote from NCAA Mark Emmert: "It's wrong for parents to sell the athletics services of their student-athletes to a university, and we need to make sure we have rules to stop that problem. And today, we don't," Emmert said. "We have to fix that."

It's perfectly OK for the NCAA, Conferences, Schools, Bowl Corporations, and TV Media to sell those services in a multi-billion dollar industry.....talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

[AAadict]

[/QUOTE]It's perfectly OK for the NCAA, Conferences, Schools, Bowl Corporations, and TV Media to sell those services in a multi-billion dollar industry.....talk about the pot calling the kettle black![/QUOTE]

Exactly!

[WileECoyote06]

So what happens to North Alabama and West Georgia?

[Redhawk2010]

Well I guess those who said UW-Whitewater and Mt. Union should move up won't get your wish...

[Seawolf97]

So unless some school has deep pockets Div 1 will pretty much stay as it is for quite awhile.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

So unless some school has deep pockets Div 1 will pretty much stay as it is for quite awhile.

Which isn't a bad thing IMO. There are probably too many DI schools as it is. The PFL and SWAC for example would be far more evenly matched at the DII or DIII level. I do have a feeling that if a school really wanted to move up, and in the NCAA's eyes they had something to offer, that arrangements could be made. For the most part though, we don't need DI being diluted any further.

[Redhawk2010]

Which isn't a bad thing IMO. There are probably too many DI schools as it is. The PFL and SWAC for example would be far more evenly matched at the DII or DIII level.

Okay, but just because the schools in the Pioneer League don't offer scholarships in football does not mean they don't offer them in other sports. If they were to drop levels, then they wouldn't be able to offer the same scholarships in other sports. You have to look at the whole picture; not just football.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Okay, but just because the schools in the Pioneer League don't offer scholarships in football does not mean they don't offer them in other sports. If they were to drop levels, then they wouldn't be able to offer the same scholarships in other sports. You have to look at the whole picture; not just football.

True, which brings up an interesting point about the way NCAA allows institutions to classify. Currently, if I understand it correctly, a DII school can operate one sport at the DI level. Why also allow DI schools to choose one sport to operate at the DII or DIII level, or even better, allow institutions to pick and choose which sports it wants to sponser at which level on an individual basis?

[Seawolf97]

Which isn't a bad thing IMO. There are probably too many DI schools as it is. The PFL and SWAC for example would be far more evenly matched at the DII or DIII level. I do have a feeling that if a school really wanted to move up, and in the NCAA's eyes they had something to offer, that arrangements could be made. For the most part though, we don't need DI being diluted any further.

Couldnt agree more. I think we have 345 D1 programs now give or take and we really cover a wide range of talent.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Which isn't a bad thing IMO. There are probably too many DI schools as it is. The PFL and SWAC for example would be far more evenly matched at the DII or DIII level. I do have a feeling that if a school really wanted to move up, and in the NCAA's eyes they had something to offer, that arrangements could be made. For the most part though, we don't need DI being diluted any further.

SMH typical. xsmhx

[FargoBison]

True, which brings up an interesting point about the way NCAA allows institutions to classify. Currently, if I understand it correctly, a DII school can operate one sport at the DI level. Why also allow DI schools to choose one sport to operate at the DII or DIII level, or even better, allow institutions to pick and choose which sports it wants to sponser at which level on an individual basis?

That would destroy college athletics, conferences would lose their identity. There would be about a million schools that would want to play DI basketball.

I don't think it is a good thing to allow schools at the highest level drop down and compete on a lower level in select sports. It should be all or none.

I will say this, the NCAA needs to set some minimum standards for DI and kick some schools out if they can't meet them.

[JSU02]

So what happens to North Alabama and West Georgia?
They open a savings account and start soliciting donations.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So unless some school has deep pockets Div 1 will pretty much stay as it is for quite awhile.


Which isn't a bad thing IMO. There are probably too many DI schools as it is. The PFL and SWAC for example would be far more evenly matched at the DII or DIII level. I do have a feeling that if a school really wanted to move up, and in the NCAA's eyes they had something to offer, that arrangements could be made. For the most part though, we don't need DI being diluted any further.

As I said, the Big East will be able to expand to 30 teams if they wish, since what's $1 million dollars to them, pocket money? But the CAA, Southland, Patriot... those D-II schools will have to go cap in hand to their students and alumni. All it does is hose the small conferences while keeping big-conference movement the same. Typical NCAA.

[carney2]

Ouch. Another roadblock to a possible ascension of schools such as Hopkins, Union, RPI, Gettysburg etc. to becoming members of the Patriot League.

As if this was going to happen, even with an entry fee of $1.00 and a can of tuna contributed to a food bank.

[magnolialeague]

A whole bunch of programs ought to be moved from FBS to FCS. First, the entire MAC ought to be sent to the FCS. I just read, "MAC college football teams has worst avg attendance this year. 7 of its schools were in the bottom 10, all under 16K/game." As a conference , they hardly compete at the FBS level but could be a terrific FCS conference.

[Big Al]

The NCAA should a) radically reduce the number of football scholarships for D-I football (about 1/2 of where they are right now) and b) introduce a relegation system for all scholarship sports. Each division should accommodate about 120 schools, max.

This wouldn't affect conference membership but would dictate post-season eligibility. Individual conferences could, however, invite/remove schools if they don't stay in a certain division.

Of course money and inertia will prevent this from ever happening.

[JSU02]

I think whats great about America is you are free to succeed and free to fail. Although expensive, I think the fee is fairer than the bona-fide conference membership offer the more I think about it. If a school wishes to move to D-I, is willing to fund the appropriate amount of scholarships and sports, but is unable to get into any conferences, they should be able to. Their chances of being successful will be very small and will be very very difficult to get an at large bid, but if a school wants to risk the chance of utter failure and winless seasons against increased publicity and the chance to prove themselves, then it should be able to do so. If I want to start a car company and can raise the capital to get it started I should be free to do so, with out having to ask GM, Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, Honda or any other company if they think it is ok, or if they want to form a partnership with me.

[DFW HOYA]

As I said, the Big East will be able to expand to 30 teams if they wish, since what's $1 million dollars to them, pocket money? But the CAA, Southland, Patriot... those D-II schools will have to go cap in hand to their students and alumni. All it does is hose the small conferences while keeping big-conference movement the same. Typical NCAA.

What's to stop any other conference from expanding? If the Sun Belt wanted to be 30 schools and absorb the CAA in doing so, could it?

Clearly, the PL has its own unique approach to expansion, but the NCAA isn't holding it back, either.

[JSU02]

What's to stop any other conference from expanding? If the Sun Belt wanted to be 30 schools and absorb the CAA in doing so, could it?

Clearly, the PL has its own unique approach to expansion, but the NCAA isn't holding it back, either.

Exactly, there are no rules as to how large a conference can be, only how small it can be. The disadvantage to having too large a conference is that each conference only gets 1 autobid. I think that is a reason why there are not very many conferences much larger than 14 (the number at which a conference could split and have the minimum number to form 2 seperate conferences).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So unless some school has deep pockets Div 1 will pretty much stay as it is for quite awhile.


What's to stop any other conference from expanding? If the Sun Belt wanted to be 30 schools and absorb the CAA in doing so, could it?

Nothing is stopping the Sun Belt from expanding, but they almost certainly wouldn't pay the NCAA $1 million per school. However, the BCS conferences will just shave $1 million off their Nike/Gatorade contract to pay the fee for a new school.

Nutshell: the big-money BCS conferences will simply pay off the NCAA to expand to 14, 16, 18, 20, 30, 50 teams. Small conferences - including all FCS conferences, the MAC and Sun Belt - hosed.

[superman7515]

But how many D2 schools were looking at jumping to the BCS conferences anyway? That's a non-factor. They're just keeping everyone down. This is to join Div 1, not to join FBS. FCS is already Div 1, so there's no million dollar fee for that because you're not moving up to D1.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think whats great about America is you are free to succeed and free to fail.

I'd agree if it were all private schools on an even playing field. Were that the case, of course, the Ivy, Patriot and (most) SoCon and PFL schools would be at the top of the mountain because alumni of these institutions must support not only their own historic programs, but the publicly-funded institutions as well, via involuntary, coerced taxation. We go to jail if we don't. By contrast, how many state school alumni, regardless of means, donate money to private schools? You get the point.

So, regrettably, we most certainly are not free to succeed and free to fail within the current milieu of college athletics.

I am reminded of the inscriptions circling Lafayette College's stately, resolute Kirby Hall:

"Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" (Matthew 20:15)

"Every man is free to do that which he will provided he infringes not the equal freedom of any other man." (Herbert Spencer)

"Every man is architect of his own fortune." (Pseudo Sallust)

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might." (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

Were that the case, the specter of college football would be much, much different.


http://govlaw.lafayette.edu/files/2009/08/IMG_0697-225x300.jpg

[Cocky]

How many governerment research grants are given to these private universities? I believe I would go to jail for not helping fund these grants also.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

But how many D2 schools were looking at jumping to the BCS conferences anyway? That's a non-factor. They're just keeping everyone down. This is to join Div 1, not to join FBS. FCS is already Div 1, so there's no million dollar fee for that because you're not moving up to D1.

Quoted just to reiterate.

[Big Al]

I'd agree if it were all private schools on an even playing field. Were that the case, of course, the Ivy, Patriot and (most) SoCon and PFL schools would be at the top of the mountain because alumni of these institutions must support not only their own historic programs, but the publicly-funded institutions as well, via involuntary, coerced taxation. We go to jail if we don't. By contrast, how many state school alumni, regardless of means, donate money to private schools? You get the point.

The difference, of course, is that a state-funded college must accept any qualifying student applicant from their state. A private college, by contrast, can pick and choose whom they will accept for matriculation.

We can discuss the involuntary, coercive nature of taxation on the poli board, if you wish.

[aust42]

IMO the NCAA is simply does not want more schools joining FBS which I agree with. Their product is "watered down" enough with the Sunbelt, 2011 WAC members and even the MAC Conference. If a FBS conference wants an FCS school to join then they need that invite and the money to ante up. Big deal.

[superman7515]

IMO the NCAA is simply does not want more schools joining FBS which I agree with. Their product is "watered down" enough with the Sunbelt, 2011 WAC members and even the MAC Conference. If a FBS conference wants an FCS school to join then they need that invite and the money to ante up. Big deal.

Again, the FCS school doesn't have to "ante up". This is the cost to join DIVISION ONE which FCS is already a part of. This has nothing to do with FCS to FBS, it has to do with Div 2 or 3 to Div 1.

[AppMan]

D-I is too big as it is and the NCAA is simply trying to slow down the stampeed and I believe this has more to do with basketball. From 1980 until 2010 the number of D-I basketball schools grew from about 225 teams to almost 350 today. That's way too many teams. I do think there are more efficient ways of accomplishing the goal. Set some requirements in place that would make it difficult for schools like High Point College to move into D-I with a 1,750 seat "arena". D-I football needs some sizeable requirements of its own. In order to separate itself from D-II and also FCS from FBS. By requiring FBS programs to average 25,000 per game the NCAA would cull out the coat tail riders real quick. D-II was once a very solid division, but has been watered down greatly over the past 25 years. If an AD is honest he will confess the lure of NCAA basketball tournament money was what motivated the move.

[Big Al]

D-II was once a very solid division, but has been watered down greatly over the past 25 years. If an AD is honest he will confess the lure of NCAA basketball tournament money was what motivated the move.

I don't think there's a person that would argue that point. My question is, why shouldn't a school compete at the D-1 level if they want to spend the money, since that's really the sole criteria for joining D-1? The solution, of course, is to make D-1 membership contingent on performance. Of course, this will never happen because the WACs, Sun Belts & MACs of the world know that they'd likely have a significant number of programs that would be dropped down because of lack of performance.

[Bogus Megapardus]

DSet some requirements in place that would make it difficult for schools like High Point College to move into D-I

I take you mean that places like the Ivy and Patriot schools (some of which are half the size of High Point), which have been playing at the highest level of college basketball for 100 years, ought not even exist. One could make the same point on a number of levels about the proliferation of regional/directional/commuter state universities too, of course - despite the nationwide legislative obsession to build massive, taxpayer-funded arenas that nobody goes to and nobody cares about.