Yankees Give Soriano A Few Brinks Trucks Full Of Money

[UNHWildCats]

$35 million over three years for a non closing reliever... xsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhx

[PaladinFan]

$35 million over three years for a non closing reliever... xsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhxxsmhx

That much money for any reliever is ludicrous. But, it is the Yankees. Quite possibly they were the only ones betting on him as there are few teams, even big market teams, that a dumb enough to shell out that much money for a setup man.

I might feel differently if this put them over the top. I think they are several pieces away from competing for an AL East title or even the wildcard.

[NHwildEcat]

You have to pay to get great arms in the pen. However, they well overpaid...no reliver is worth this much...

As a side note...closers are the most overrated position on a baseball team. Watching the Red Sox last year, you knew who the most important member of the pen was and it wasn't the closer but rather the set up man. But the closer always gets the hype and praise/hatred.

[PaladinFan]

You have to pay to get great arms in the pen. However, they well overpaid...no reliver is worth this much...

As a side note...closers are the most overrated position on a baseball team. Watching the Red Sox last year, you knew who the most important member of the pen was and it wasn't the closer but rather the set up man. But the closer always gets the hype and praise/hatred.

I agree with you. I don't mind paying your most dominant reliever what he's worth, but most teams utilize them so poorly. Atlanta has used closer-by-committee for a few years now, with great results.

[Gil Dobie]

Still may lack the starting pitching to win the World Series. I would take the Giants staff over the Yankees or Phillies, it just looks stronger with good starters and good relievers.

[TheValleyRaider]

Still may lack the starting pitching to win the World Series. I would take the Giants staff over the Yankees or Phillies, it just looks stronger with good starters and good relievers.

Yeah, but I'd take either lineup over what the Giants have. They squeezed into the playoffs last year and it wouldn't shock me if they don't score enough runs to make it back again

[Gil Dobie]

Yeah, but I'd take either lineup over what the Giants have. They squeezed into the playoffs last year and it wouldn't shock me if they don't score enough runs to make it back again

I wouldn't be surprised either, if the had just enough offense to do it again.

[PaladinFan]

The Yankees may still yet have enough offense to cover their deficient starting rotation. The American League, probably more so than any time in recent memory, is almost completely void of top flight starting pitching. In my opinion, the really only top flight guy still left plays on the league's worst team. As a result, the Yanks will still be able to clobber what pitching there is left in the junior circuit.

NL is a different monster. Pitching will continue to have the upper hand, so you have to like the Giants and Phillies. As we know, once the playoffs start, just about anything is possible.

[JoltinJoe]

Geez, the Yankees have one of the game's top starters in Sabathia, certainly a "top flight" guy. They've now added another .8 WHIP, 1.7 ERA to the bullpen. This frees them up to give Joba Chamberlain another shot at starting -- or maybe even trading him.

Not being settled in the starting rotation is ok right now. The Yankees have a lot of great young arms and this gives them the chance to audition some of those guys to see if any of them are ready to step up.

[phoenixphanatic21]

Yay throwing money at the problem! That's worked so well for them in the past...

[JoltinJoe]

Yay throwing money at the problem! That's worked so well for them in the past...

Yes, 5 WS titles in the past 15 years. Sounds like things are working pretty well.

[PaladinFan]

Geez, the Yankees have one of the game's top starters in Sabathia, certainly a "top flight" guy. They've now added another .8 WHIP, 1.7 ERA to the bullpen. This frees them up to give Joba Chamberlain another shot at starting -- or maybe even trading him.

Not being settled in the starting rotation is ok right now. The Yankees have a lot of great young arms and this gives them the chance to audition some of those guys to see if any of them are ready to step up.

Sabathia is certainly worthy of consideration. However, if you outlined the major league's top starters, I don't think he's at the level now he was a few years ago. His win total is inflated by his team, and the Cy Young voters noticed it. Still, a great pitcher, though.

The Yankees are certainly in a pickle, and Joba Chamberlain isn't the answer. For maybe the second time I can remember, the Yankee's money couldn't land a big free agent (John Smoltz took 20 million less to stay in Atlanta). Problem is, they have built their franchise on landing free agents at the expense of developing young players. 95% of the time that works because they are able to get the big name. Now they lost out on Lee and have no talent to step in. It's the gamble you take when you operate like they do.

[JoltinJoe]

Sabathia is certainly worthy of consideration. However, if you outlined the major league's top starters, I don't think he's at the level now he was a few years ago. His win total is inflated by his team, and the Cy Young voters noticed it. Still, a great pitcher, though.

The Yankees are certainly in a pickle, and Joba Chamberlain isn't the answer. For maybe the second time I can remember, the Yankee's money couldn't land a big free agent (John Smoltz took 20 million less to stay in Atlanta). Problem is, they have built their franchise on landing free agents at the expense of developing young players. 95% of the time that works because they are able to get the big name. Now they lost out on Lee and have no talent to step in. It's the gamble you take when you operate like they do.

Sabathia pitched to a 3.18 ERA primarily in a hitters' ballpark. If he had pitched for any team other than the Yankees, he would have won the Cy Young.

And if you think the Yankees don't have pitching prospects, you're not aware of what is going down on the Yankee farm. Both Ivan Nova and Andrew Brackman look to be major league ready; and Many Banuelos and Dellin Betances may get some MLB time in 2011, but should definitely be ready for 2012.

[UMass922]

I'd throw Justin Verlander in that top-flight group, and Jon Lester probably isn't too far behind. Jared Weaver and Francisco Liriano had great years last year that flew under the radar; if they can do it again this year, they'll be in the discussion as well. But I agree, most of the great starting pitchers are in the NL right now.

[JoltinJoe]

I'd throw Justin Verlander in that top-flight group, and Jon Lester probably isn't too far behind. Jared Weaver and Francisco Liriano had great years last year that flew under the radar; if they can do it again this year, they'll be in the discussion as well. But I agree, most of the great starting pitchers are in the NL right now.

Lester is definitely a top-flight starter, as is Verlander. Keep in mind ERAs tend to be higher in the AL. That being said, the NL does seem to have deeper pitching at the moment.

But don't forget Buccholz and Hughes in the AL, though ... they might be ready to break through.

[PaladinFan]

Lester is definitely a top-flight starter, as is Verlander. Keep in mind ERAs tend to be higher in the AL. That being said, the NL does seem to have deeper pitching at the moment.

But don't forget Buccholz and Hughes in the AL, though ... they might be ready to break through.

I can agree with all of those names. I remember watching Bucholtz in Single A when he was coming up. Good then, good now.

My point is the depth of pitching in the NL is just so much greater right now. This offseason alone three of the AL's best starters jumped leagues (Lee, Garza, and Grienke). My point is to say that on a day to day basis, the Yankees simply aren't going to run into that tough of pitching. Their offense is good enough to feast on the army of #2s and #3s they will face on a daily basis.

Of course, they can run into a Verlander, a Lester, a Hernandez now and again. I just don't think any AL team right now has that type of pitching "gauntlet," for lack of a better term, where an offense is facing three cy young calibre starters over a series.

[NHwildEcat]

Sure Grienke two years ago was an amazing guy to watch, but look at what happened last year. He was miserable, I wouldn't put him into the top levels even in the NL right now unless he can prove he can pitch again.

My belief on the best pitchers going to the NL is simply because there are not as many tough hitters to face. Sure there are some real good bats in the NL but the bottom of the order for just about every team is a complete joke. Some of that is because of the pitchers spot in the lineup sure, but the 7/8 hitters are not very good.

[NHwildEcat]

Which team do you guys think has the top roation in the AL?

I would have to say Boston with Lester and Bucholz at the top of the rotation. Plus, while i am not overly pleased with his performance in his carrer, Josh Beckett has had periods of complete domination during his career, especially in the playoffs. And some people think highly of Lackey, although I am not one of them. I think when you have Dice-K as your 5th starter things are pretty good...others thoughts?

[HailSzczur]

I think the Red Sox have the best in a AL. alot of teams would die for 2 of Beckett, Lackey, Lester, or Bucholz.
personally i am not comfortable with DiceK, im scared everytime hes on the mound. He usually pitches well/decent but theres inevetiably one inning that makes you cringe. I would much rather see wakefield out their giving it a shot. On a good day he as almost a genius up there, and hes bad days are no worse then Dicek's bad days. Wake out of the bullpen just seems stupid to me, you need to let a knuckleballer go, they arent to effective in short term roles

[PaladinFan]

Sure Grienke two years ago was an amazing guy to watch, but look at what happened last year. He was miserable, I wouldn't put him into the top levels even in the NL right now unless he can prove he can pitch again.

My belief on the best pitchers going to the NL is simply because there are not as many tough hitters to face. Sure there are some real good bats in the NL but the bottom of the order for just about every team is a complete joke. Some of that is because of the pitchers spot in the lineup sure, but the 7/8 hitters are not very good.

...or potentially the converse. My opinion is that the NL hitters don't produce as high of numbers because the pitching is better.

[TheValleyRaider]

So how exactly does that depth of pitching account for the AL having a better interleague record for 7 years running?

[PaladinFan]

So how exactly does that depth of pitching account for the AL having a better interleague record for 7 years running?

Baseball history is full of cycles. A league will take over in power for a number of years, then it will shift back. The AL has been the dominant league recently. I think you are starting to see the shift back to the NL. The NL was the better league throughout the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Interleague records aside, the difference has not been as one sided as you suggest. If you look at the World Series, the AL is 6-5 since 2000.

I just think you'll see a move back to the National League. For example, look at this year's Rookie of the Year awards. You can make an argument that Neftali Feliz wouldn't have finished in the top five voting in the NL, much less have won the award. A lot of young talent serving as the backbone for NL teams right now.

Again, this is not to get into an argument about which league is better (I frankly think AL baseball is watered down :)). The NL does have better pitching and better young talent. AL still has better offenses and more marketable stars.

[TheValleyRaider]

Baseball history is full of cycles. A league will take over in power for a number of years, then it will shift back. The AL has been the dominant league recently. I think you are starting to see the shift back to the NL. The NL was the better league throughout the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Interleague records aside, the difference has not been as one sided as you suggest. If you look at the World Series, the AL is 6-5 since 2000.

I just think you'll see a move back to the National League. For example, look at this year's Rookie of the Year awards. You can make an argument that Neftali Feliz wouldn't have finished in the top five voting in the NL, much less have won the award. A lot of young talent serving as the backbone for NL teams right now.

Again, this is not to get into an argument about which league is better (I frankly think AL baseball is watered down :)). The NL does have better pitching and better young talent. AL still has better offenses and more marketable stars.

No doubt about the cycles, but this is clearly an AL up-swing

The World Series is a false premise. First, baseball's playoffs are more unlike the regular season than any other sport. Any team can win a short series. Beyond that, it's 1 team vs. 1 team. Just like the Best Team vs. Best Conference debate, depth outweighs top-heavy xtwocentsx

[UMass922]

Sure Grienke two years ago was an amazing guy to watch, but look at what happened last year. He was miserable, I wouldn't put him into the top levels even in the NL right now unless he can prove he can pitch again.

Greinke can still pitch; I wouldn't call his 2010 season "miserable" by any stretch. He pretty much just reverted back to the pitcher he was in '08, when he was very good (just not ridiculously dominant like he was in '09). He was better than his W-L record and ERA suggest. His peripherals were still very good (3.29 K/BB, WHIP under 1.3; his K, BB, and GB/FB rates were all very solid) and will translate fine to the NL. He's not in the Halladay-Lincecum-Lee class, and his '09 is an outlier season for sure, but he's still one of the better pitchers out there.

[UMass922]

The World Series is a false premise. First, baseball's playoffs are more unlike the regular season than any other sport. Any team can win a short series.

Totally agree with this. There's a reason the baseball season is as long as it is; it takes a lot of baseball games to sort out which teams are better than others. A lot of fluky stuff can (and does) happen in a seven-game series.

Honestly, if I had it my way, I would scrap the divisions, scrap interleague play, play a balanced regular-season schedule, and have the two league champs face off in a month-long World Series--21 games or something like that. Never gonna happen, of course, but I'd love it.

[UNHWildCats]

I think the Red Sox have the best in a AL. alot of teams would die for 2 of Beckett, Lackey, Lester, or Bucholz.
personally i am not comfortable with DiceK, im scared everytime hes on the mound. He usually pitches well/decent but theres inevetiably one inning that makes you cringe. I would much rather see wakefield out their giving it a shot. On a good day he as almost a genius up there, and hes bad days are no worse then Dicek's bad days. Wake out of the bullpen just seems stupid to me, you need to let a knuckleballer go, they arent to effective in short term roles
Yes, Dice K can have games where he has everyone pulling their hair out, when he is on.... he is right there with Chris Carpenter, Tim Lincecum, Roy Halladay and the other super elites. Let's hope Curt Young can help him bring that with him to the mound more often... If he does and if Beckett bounces back from his injury season and Lackey makes the usual second year in the AL East bounce back.... this rotation is killer.... and if that happens... this team will leave the Yankees 125 win season in their dust (114-48 regular season)

[PaladinFan]

Yes, Dice K can have games where he has everyone pulling their hair out, when he is on.... he is right there with Chris Carpenter, Tim Lincecum, Roy Halladay and the other super elites. Let's hope Curt Young can help him bring that with him to the mound more often... If he does and if Beckett bounces back from his injury season and Lackey makes the usual second year in the AL East bounce back.... this rotation is killer.... and if that happens... this team will leave the Yankees 125 win season in their dust (114-48 regular season)

Dice K belongs nowhere in the conversation with Halladay, Carpenter, Lincecum, etc. That's like putting AJ Burnett in the conversation.

[PaladinFan]

No doubt about the cycles, but this is clearly an AL up-swing

The World Series is a false premise. First, baseball's playoffs are more unlike the regular season than any other sport. Any team can win a short series. Beyond that, it's 1 team vs. 1 team. Just like the Best Team vs. Best Conference debate, depth outweighs top-heavy xtwocentsx

We'll just disagree on this. I think you'll begin to see the NL start taking more interleague series in 2011. Its hard to find comparables as interleague play began during a period when the AL was the more dominant league. We'll see how it turns out when the NL has more success.

[NHwildEcat]

...or potentially the converse. My opinion is that the NL hitters don't produce as high of numbers because the pitching is better.

I guess we will have to disagree on this because I feel the complete opposite. NL pitchers numbers will look better when they face those NL lineups. Sure there some are good lineups, especially the Reds and Phils but there are some really bad lineups like most of the NL West and most of the NL Central.

You can certainly agree the weekness of those respective divisions in the AL and that is valid, but I think overall the AL still dominates offensively-which may have to deal with having the DH.

[NHwildEcat]

Dice K belongs nowhere in the conversation with Halladay, Carpenter, Lincecum, etc. That's like putting AJ Burnett in the conversation.

I know what you are saying, but UNHWildcats is right to an extent. When Dice-K is on he is one of the best...but he is rarely on. He is certainly beter then AJ Burnett ever was. The best I have seen Burnett was when he was on a rehab assignment for Toronto and play the NH FisherCats. It's almost insulting to compare Dice-K to Burnett.

[PaladinFan]

I guess we will have to disagree on this because I feel the complete opposite. NL pitchers numbers will look better when they face those NL lineups. Sure there some are good lineups, especially the Reds and Phils but there are some really bad lineups like most of the NL West and most of the NL Central.

You can certainly agree the weekness of those respective divisions in the AL and that is valid, but I think overall the AL still dominates offensively-which may have to deal with having the DH.

I think the DH has a great deal to do with it. When an NL team plays in an AL ballpark, the NL team relies on a utility man to fill the DH role while the AL team has a professional hitter who is often a defensive liability. In the NL ballpark the AL team has that guy on the bench for a late inning swing.

I think the DH disparity is more pronounced when playing AL baseball as the NL teams simply don't have use for a guy like David Ortiz or Jim Thome. That roster spot is better used on a guy like an Omar Infante, a Wilson Valdez, a Willie Harris. A guy that can provide defensive help at several positions.

I personally just wish they'd can the DH. You AL fans miss out on so much of the mental game that is baseball :)

[JoltinJoe]

Yes, Dice K can have games where he has everyone pulling their hair out, when he is on.... he is right there with Chris Carpenter, Tim Lincecum, Roy Halladay and the other super elites. Let's hope Curt Young can help him bring that with him to the mound more often... If he does and if Beckett bounces back from his injury season and Lackey makes the usual second year in the AL East bounce back.... this rotation is killer.... and if that happens... this team will leave the Yankees 125 win season in their dust (114-48 regular season)

IMO, throughout their career, Beckett and Lackey have been at best streaky pitchers whose reputations greatly exceed their overall accomplishments. At points in their careers, they have stepped up in post-season games. This fact, and the fact that both have enjoyed at least one truly great season, obscures the overall uneven, up-and-down nature of their careers. I honestly think Lackey is an over 4.00 ERA guy at this point in his career. He walked way too many batters and he simply lacked command on his fastball. He needs to hit his spots with that fastball, because he's not going to blow it past anyone.

Beckett can point to injuries last year, so he needs to step it up this year. In five seasons in Boston, he has had ERAs over 5.00 two times.

[HailSzczur]

Dice K' in 2007, his first year in the league maybe you justify thinking about putting him the conversation with Cy Young Winners like that, but the Dice K of the 2009, 2010 is in the conversation probably with most other teams #2 or 3 pitchers, bar the current Philadelphia rotation

Personally, I think that 'junk ball' pitchers like he and his bullpen mate okajima are very effective until the league sees them enough and adjusts. Now its time for him to win based on 'stuff' then hype and lore

[PaladinFan]

Dice K' in 2007, his first year in the league maybe you justify thinking about putting him the conversation with Cy Young Winners like that, but the Dice K of the 2009, 2010 is in the conversation probably with most other teams #2 or 3 pitchers, bar the current Philadelphia rotation

Personally, I think that 'junk ball' pitchers like he and his bullpen mate okajima are very effective until the league sees them enough and adjusts. Now its time for him to win based on 'stuff' then hype and lore

That's the rub on Japanese pitchers. Quirky delivery can mask poor stuff for a while. But, and history has shown, that eventually the league figures you out. That has happened to Japanese pitchers like Nomo and Matsuzaka, but also Western Hemisphere guys like Dontrelle Willis and Oliver Perez. At the end of the day, you've got to have stellar stuff to maintain a level of dominance.

There really is a lanundry list of Asian pitchers who have come over and had very limited success in the majors. Even more recently than that is Kenshin Kawakami in Atlanta. Guy was a pretty servicable starter in 2009 only to start out 0-9 in 2010. Yet, teams continue to fall over themselves trying to sign them hoping to find the next Ichiro.

[HailSzczur]

what amazes me is the money they pay for them, for example fukadome in chicago. Its not unlike the fascination in the NBA with big, deep shooting europeans in hopes they become a dirk n. like in dallas

[UNHWildCats]

Dice K' in 2007, his first year in the league maybe you justify thinking about putting him the conversation with Cy Young Winners like that, but the Dice K of the 2009, 2010 is in the conversation probably with most other teams #2 or 3 pitchers, bar the current Philadelphia rotation

Personally, I think that 'junk ball' pitchers like he and his bullpen mate okajima are very effective until the league sees them enough and adjusts. Now its time for him to win based on 'stuff' then hype and lore
His first season was decent. He was awesome his second season (2008) when he had 8 games allowing 2 or less hits. He missed most of 2009 with injuries. While his ERA wasnt great in 2010 his numbers aside from ERA weren't incredibly off from 2008 so there ould be some effect in there from the Red Sox having so many minor league fill ins on defense drastically lowering the quality of play behind him... 2011 is important for his future in the US... If he has another year like 2008 he will go into his contract year of 2012 as one of the if not the top looming free agent. If his 2011 is much like 2010 he will probably find himself back in Japan come 2013 or a back end of the rotation guy in the NL.

[NHwildEcat]

I think Dice-K could be a number 2 in he NL...I don't mean to be a hater of the National League but really there are only a couple lineups that are deep enough to do damage...otherwise it is a pitchers playground. Even pitchers like Burnett.

[UNHWildCats]

what amazes me is the money they pay for them, for example fukadome in chicago. Its not unlike the fascination in the NBA with big, deep shooting europeans in hopes they become a dirk n. like in dallas
For the $100 million the sox have paid in posting fee and salary thus far and over the next 2 years they have gotten 46 wins from him so far and if he stays healthy he will add anywhere from 20-35 more wins to that total... Lets say he gets 30 wins over the next 2 seasons, and with Bostons offense thats not entirely impossible. That would mean 76 wins in 6 seasons for $100 million... thats far better than a lot of teams get for high priced pitchers.

In fact of the six pitchers who have signed $100 million + deals Matsuzaka could rank 3rd in total wins of the 7 players when all the deals are done.

Barry Zito has won 40 games in his first 4 years of his deal, he has three remaining.

CC Sabathia has won 40 games in his first 2 years and has 5 remaining on the deal, though he can opt out after 2011. If he plays the entire contract he will likely top the win list of the $100 million guys.

Johan Santana has also won 40 games in the first 3 years of his deal with 3 remaining.

Cliff Lee has a shot to finish second in wins of the $100 million guys. He starts his 6 year deal in 2011.

Mike Hampton won 56 games over his 8 year deal.

Kevin Brown won 72 games over his 7 year deal.

[UNHWildCats]

I think Dice-K could be a number 2 in he NL...I don't mean to be a hater of the National League but really there are only a couple lineups that are deep enough to do damage...otherwise it is a pitchers playground. Even pitchers like Burnett.
Matsuzaka's problem is walks... If he can cut that in half he would be a tremendous pitcher... The Sox new pitching coach could help him there and if he is able to help him cut down the walks... watch out... He will be a monster.

[JoltinJoe]

Matsuzaka's problem is walks... If he can cut that in half he would be a tremendous pitcher... The Sox new pitching coach could help him there and if he is able to help him cut down the walks... watch out... He will be a monster.

Matsuzaka's problem is that his stuff isn't good enough to challenge hitters, so he nibbles, and walks too many. If he cuts his walks in half, he will have other issues. I agree he could do better in the NL, where the lineups don't go nearly as deep as they do in the AL.

[JoltinJoe]

I know what you are saying, but UNHWildcats is right to an extent. When Dice-K is on he is one of the best...but he is rarely on. He is certainly beter then AJ Burnett ever was. The best I have seen Burnett was when he was on a rehab assignment for Toronto and play the NH FisherCats. It's almost insulting to compare Dice-K to Burnett.

Burnett has more talent than Dice-K, although he gets less out of it. But if you tell me one of those guys will win 18 games in 2011, with a 3.6 ERA, I'm going to guess that it's Burnett. He has the talent to pitch like that and should be getting results like that. IMO, Burnett is perhaps the biggest underachiever in baseball.

[TheValleyRaider]

Burnett has more talent than Dice-K, although he gets less out of it. But if you tell me one of those guys will win 18 games in 2011, with a 3.6 ERA, I'm going to guess that it's Burnett. He has the talent to pitch like that and should be getting results like that. IMO, Burnett is perhaps the biggest underachiever in baseball.

And in line with that, if you told me Burnett would win 9 games with a 5.6 ERA in 2011, I'd still believe it xlolx

[PaladinFan]

And in line with that, if you told me Burnett would win 9 games with a 5.6 ERA in 2011, I'd still believe it xlolx

The Yankees have it worked into their buget to assume a balloon of a contract for a pitcher who falls off the deep end upon arriving in New York.

[UNHWildCats]

The Yankees have it worked into their buget to assume a balloon of a contract for a pitcher who falls off the deep end upon arriving in New York.

with the regularity it happens, one might start to wonder if they have a tax break to cover it... lol

[PaladinFan]

with the regularity it happens, one might start to wonder if they have a tax break to cover it... lol

It's not to quite the same degree, but gone are the days that the Red Sox can cry "poor" when it comes to spending in baseball.