Barry Bonds..

[AppGuy04]

Says this is his last season, and then retracts statement

There is a poll on ESPN asking whether you want Bonds to break Hank's HR record

Your thoughts?

P.S.- currently, 77% of the people say no

[Gil Dobie]

Just Say No!

Hope Balco Barry doesn't pass the Hammer.

[saint0917]

I said no too, I agree with Gil, I hope Barry "Steriods" Bonds doesn't pass Hank.

By Gene Wojciechowski
ESPN.com

Listen to him:

"I'm tired of all the crap going on," Bonds said. "I want to play this year out, hopefully win, and once the season is over, go home and be with my family. Maybe then everybody can just forget about me."

And later: "I love the game of baseball itself, but I don't like what it's turned out to be. I'm not mad at anybody. It's just that right now I am not proud to be a baseball player."

This is the hypocrisy of Bonds. No one is holding a Jugs Gun to his head and telling him to play in 2006. If he's so tired of it all, so desperate to be forgotten, so embarrassed to wear a big league uni, then retire now. And don't let the clubhouse door hit you on the way out.


"I'm clean, I've always been clean," Bonds told USA Today.

Yes, absolutely clean, except for the times he unknowingly used two designer steroid substances obtained from his trainer, who just happened to get indicted in the BALCO scandal. All this according to federal grand jury transcripts. Bonds has said he wasn't aware the substances were steroids.

[Bub]

Oh for gawd sakes Barry you lying sack of *****. You admitted you took the stuff, and sorry, but no professional athlete, not on the juice, puts on 40 pounds of muscle and goes from never hitting more than 40 jacks to 73 after age 38. I hope they test his fat steriod azz, bust him and get him out of baseball along with all the other steroid using pieces of crap. You can't hold Hamm'rin Hank's jock.

And that's all I got to say about that.

[Ivytalk]

Oh for gawd sakes Barry you lying sack of *****. You admitted you took the stuff, and sorry, but no professional athlete, not on the juice, puts on 40 pounds of muscle and goes from never hitting more than 40 jacks to 73 after age 38. I hope they test his fat steriod azz, bust him and get him out of baseball along with all the other steroid using pieces of crap. You can't hold Hamm'rin Hank's jock.

And that's all I got to say about that.

C'mon, Bub, say what you really think!:D

And my answer is no, and "bring back the asterisk!"

[blackfordpu]

Oh for gawd sakes Barry you lying sack of *****. You admitted you took the stuff, and sorry, but no professional athlete, not on the juice, puts on 40 pounds of muscle and goes from never hitting more than 40 jacks to 73 after age 38. I hope they test his fat steriod azz, bust him and get him out of baseball along with all the other steroid using pieces of crap. You can't hold Hamm'rin Hank's jock.

And that's all I got to say about that.

Very well put. My answer is no as well.

[Bub]

C'mon, Bub, say what you really think!:D

And my answer is no, and "bring back the asterisk!"



I have only begun to piss and moan about Barry Bonds. Wait till I get a load on!:rotateh:

[dbackjon]

***** Barry Bonds.

If MLB had any cajones, and made him take off his body armor, he'd only have about 400 homers right now anyways, and would have been out of the league 5 years ago.

[Bub]

*****ing A Bubba! How long do you Barry would have last if Bob Gibson were still pitching?

[Go...gate]

I'm with you. Don Drysdale would have decked his ass about half a dozen times. Bonds was a great ballplayer who unfortunately made a spectacle of himself.

[blur2005]

Barry Bonds is probably my least favorite professional athlete and I certainly do not want him of all people to break Hank Aaron's hallowed record.

[ngineer]

Can you imagine Bonds breaking Hank's record and the entire stadium booing? Yes. And I'd be joining in.

[Third and Long]

Can you imagine Bonds breaking Hank's record and the entire stadium booing? Yes. And I'd be joining in.
That would be so funny!!! I don't know what or how ESPN would explain it. I am sure they would make that hype so big.

[AppGuy04]

That would be so funny!!! I don't know what or how ESPN would explain it. I am sure they would make that hype so big.

he will sit out a game to make sure its at home, trust me on that

[jstate83]

he will sit out a game to make sure its at home, trust me on that

Who cares..................He already said he DON'T WANT TO BREAK the all-time record BECAUSE of who's holding it.

BONDS.........................Retire, enjoy your money, and tell the baseball world and writers to go to he!!.

[saint0917]

BONDS.........................Retire, enjoy your money, and tell the baseball world and writers to go to he!!.

I think it's the fans and the writers who need to tell Bonds to go to hell for cheating the game, or maybe you think that's o.k. :eyebrow:

[AppGuy04]

I think it's the fans and the writers who need to tell Bonds to go to hell for cheating the game, or maybe you think that's o.k. :eyebrow:

but there's no proof:rolleyes:

[jstate83]

I think it's the fans and the writers who need to tell Bonds to go to hell for cheating the game, or maybe you think that's o.k. :eyebrow:

The so-called "fans" and writer's have done that for years.

The thing that get to them is they just can't understand that BONDS honestly don't GAF about them.

He has played for dang near 2 decades and not one of these "fans" or "un-biased writer's" have had any effect on him.

Again...............retire and enjoy Bonds.
When he's gone, these nutt's will still be running their mouths.

[Gil Dobie]

The so-called "fans" and writer's have done that for years.

The thing that get to them is they just can't understand that BONDS honestly don't GAF about them.

He has played for dang near 2 decades and not one of these "fans" or "un-biased writer's" have had any effect on him.

Again...............retire and enjoy Bonds.
When he's gone, these nutt's will still be running their mouths.

I liked Bonds, until the Balco stuff came out. Even won a lunch when I bet in April that Bonds would break McGwire's record by the end of the season. Don't hate Bonds, just wish they would put an asterik by his records. Same with McGwire, Sosa etc...... Maris and Aaron were two people the media attacked during their record chases. The media has to have their bad-boys. IMO Maris and Aaron were real great people and great natural ballplayers.

[SoCon Din]

Sure, they haven't gotten to him. You musta missed that interview on ESPN where he pissed and moaned to Pedro Garcia from ESPN with his son sitting there. It looks like he does, in fact, GAF.

Bonds passing Hammerin' Hank would make me about as sick to my stomach as Terrell Owens passing Jerry Rice for the All-time receiving record. I'd rather have a guy with class holding the banner-

[saint0917]

but there's no proof:rolleyes:

Sure there is :rolleyes: Bonds did use steriods, but he claims he didn't know what it was. Ya right.

Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by the Burlingame laboratory now enmeshed in a sports doping scandal, but he said he never thought they were steroids.

Federal prosecutors confronted Bonds during his testimony on Dec. 4, 2003, with documents indicating he had used steroids and human growth hormone during a three-year assault on baseball's home run record, but the Giants star denied the allegations.

[jstate83]

Sure, they haven't gotten to him. You musta missed that interview on ESPN where he pissed and moaned to Pedro Garcia from ESPN with his son sitting there. It looks like he does, in fact, GAF.

Bonds passing Hammerin' Hank would make me about as sick to my stomach as Terrell Owens passing Jerry Rice for the All-time receiving record. I'd rather have a guy with class holding the banner-

Some of ya'll really need to get a grip.
Ya'll act like these guy's have a bearing on YOUR LIFE and YOU on theirs.
Guess people have to constantly byotch about something to feel good.
Me personally...................I could care less if BONDS told baseball to kiss his arse TODAY and left Ruth's and Hammer's record's in tack.

WON'T CHANGE MY LIFE 1 BIT.

Gotten to him...................I saw the interview.

Sounded like a person that was just telling people that have no meaning to him to basically F.O.
Just like I said in the other post of mine...............when he retires, the nutt's will still be running their mouth, like they are going to make 1 bit of difference in Bonds life.

Heck ................I go off on people that's too stupid to understand "Leave me alone" after so long. Don't mean that some fool has gotten to me. Just means I've heard enough of some idiot rail about me and my life that they don't have shat to do with................You know, LOUDMOUTH KNOW-IT-ALL ADULTS that are to stupid to understand backing off. Just because he's "Bonds" don't mean he HAS to keep his mouth shut.

[AppGuy04]

Sure there is :rolleyes: Bonds did use steriods, but he claims he didn't know what it was. Ya right.

Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by the Burlingame laboratory now enmeshed in a sports doping scandal, but he said he never thought they were steroids.

Federal prosecutors confronted Bonds during his testimony on Dec. 4, 2003, with documents indicating he had used steroids and human growth hormone during a three-year assault on baseball's home run record, but the Giants star denied the allegations.

i know there is, i was being sarcastic

[saint0917]

i know there is, i was being sarcastic

o.k. :)

[AppGuy04]

o.k. :)

to say that he is well a "saint"(pun intended) would be very naive

[saint0917]

Some of ya'll really need to get a grip.
Ya'll act like these guy's have a bearing on YOUR LIFE and YOU on theirs.


Just because he's "Bonds" don't mean he HAS to keep his mouth shut.

These guys have NO bearing on my life, we are just talking about Bonds breaking records and taking steriods, what don't you understand?? And I hope Bonds keeps running his mouth, every time he opens that cake hole he shows me more and more what a classless lying jerk off he is.:D

[AppGuy04]

I hope everyone freaking walks him, he can have the walk record, let Hank keep the HR record

[bobcatfan06]

Some of ya'll really need to get a grip.
Ya'll act like these guy's have a bearing on YOUR LIFE and YOU on theirs.
Guess people have to constantly byotch about something to feel good.
Me personally...................I could care less if BONDS told baseball to kiss his arse TODAY and left Ruth's and Hammer's record's in tack.

WON'T CHANGE MY LIFE 1 BIT.

Gotten to him...................I saw the interview.

Sounded like a person that was just telling people that have no meaning to him to basically F.O.
Just like I said in the other post of mine...............when he retires, the nutt's will still be running their mouth, like they are going to make 1 bit of difference in Bonds life.

Heck ................I go off on people that's too stupid to understand "Leave me alone" after so long. Don't mean that some fool has gotten to me. Just means I've heard enough of some idiot rail about me and my life that they don't have shat to do with................You know, LOUDMOUTH KNOW-IT-ALL ADULTS that are to stupid to understand backing off. Just because he's "Bonds" don't mean he HAS to keep his mouth shut.


I bet you think we are being racist because we don't like Barry Bonds right?? :rolleyes:

Barry "The Juice" Bonds is a fraud. Along with McGwire, Canseco, Palmeiro and Sosa.

[saint0917]

I hope everyone freaking walks him, he can have the walk record, let Hank keep the HR record

Or hits him. :D

[AppGuy04]

Or hits him. :D

no, that won't hurt, b/c he has all that ARMOR

[saint0917]

no, that won't hurt, b/c he has all that ARMOR

Good Point

[saint0917]

I bet you think we are being racist because we don't like Barry Bonds right?? :rolleyes:

Barry "The Juice" Bonds is a fraud. Along with McGwire, Canseco, Palmeiro and Sosa.

I'm sure he does too. I don't like it when ANYONE cheats the game.

[HiHiYikas]

Suppose Mickey Mantle had been born the son of a Major-leaguer, and godson to a player of Willie Mays' caliber. Suppose he had been given all the advantages Bonds has been given. Whether it's (alleged but practically obvious) steroid use, or contemporary training techniques, or simply the fact that Bonds actually cares about his body.

And suppose Lou Gehrig had seen the number of AB's Aaron had - the career homerun record could be more like 775.

And suppose anyone had complete stats to back up how good Josh Gibson really was (not to mention the scores of other Negro-leaguers whose outstanding talent will never be fully known).

Anyway, I hate to admit that Bonds is probably the greatest player ever, but it's almost certainly the case (Ruth still gets a lot of nods for being a HOF-caliber pitcher who also happened to be one of the century's greatest sluggers). But at one time, the greatest player ever was a mean old racist who once ran into the stands to attack a one-armed heckler. Not every greatest player is also a good person.

Until it can be proven incontrovertibly that Bonds broke any of baseball's banned substance rules (and not simply that he used steroids, which MLB clearly didn't care about for almost a decade) he'll have to be recognized as both an immensely-talented player and the one who best used MLB's slack doping policies to his advantage.

[jstate83]

I bet you think we are being racist because we don't like Barry Bonds right?? :rolleyes:

Barry "The Juice" Bonds is a fraud. Along with McGwire, Canseco, Palmeiro and Sosa.

In 2 post on 2 threads...............It's your mind that equate's everything to race..............but like someone else pointed out, it shows where YOU are at.

You want it broke down since you are soooooo...........CLUELESS.

You and the rest of the ALWAY's MAD Idiot's of the ARMCHAIR world will never mean shat to any of these guys....................BOND's ESPECIALLY because he has the gut's to tell people on camera to go to he!!.

'Writers and Fans" didn't like Ricky Henderson either because of his so-called attitude.
His attitude was WGAF........................didn't stop his carear at all.

[AppGuy04]

In 2 post on 2 threads...............It's your mind that equate's everything to race..............but like someone else pointed out, it shows where YOU are at.

You want it broke down since you are soooooo...........CLUELESS.

You and the rest of the ALWAY's MAD Idiot's of the ARMCHAIR world will never mean shat to any of these guys....................BOND's ESPECIALLY because he has the gut's to tell people on camera to go to he!!.

'Writers and Fans" didn't like Ricky Henderson either because of his so-called attitude.
His attitude was WGAF........................didn't stop his carear at all.

There are many pro athletes that are the nicest guys in the world, hell I was named after one, Bonds is just an ass, plain and simple

[Gil Dobie]

Anyway, I hate to admit that Bonds is probably the greatest player ever, but it's almost certainly the case (Ruth still gets a lot of nods for being a HOF-caliber pitcher who also happened to be one of the century's greatest sluggers). But at one time, the greatest player ever was a mean old racist who once ran into the stands to attack a one-armed heckler. Not every greatest player is also a good person.

I'd still say Bonds God-Father is the Greatest Living player.

[saint0917]

Anyway, I hate to admit that Bonds is probably the greatest player ever,

He's not even close, you'll never mention Bonds name in the same breath as Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Joe DeMaggio, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, or Mickey Mantle.:nonono2:

[HiHiYikas]

He's not even close, you'll never mention Bonds name in the same breath as Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Joe DeMaggio, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, or Mickey Mantle.:nonono2:
Career Win Shares (that is, number of extra wins player brought to his team over the course of his career, according to Bill James' innovative sabermetric formula):

Babe Ruth - 756 (1st) Best ever, thanks to stellar pitching stats.

Lou Gehrig - 489 (22nd) - only 17 seasons to his credit, this could be higher.

Ty Cobb - 722 (2nd) best position player ever, (Ruth is on top only because of pitching win shares).

Joe DiMaggio - 387 (57th) a tremendous talent, and a good example of how Yankee pinstripes make great players legendary.

Willie Mays - 642 (6th) definitely one of the best ever.

Ted Williams - 555 (13th) sorry Yankee fans, the Splinter is simply better than the Clipper.

Mickey Mantle - 565 (11th) and imagine if he'd stayed healthy.

Barry Bonds - 666 (3rd) now just ahead of Honus Wagner (655) and Hank Aaron (643). His 54 Win Shares in 2001 stands as one of the best single season totals of all time (Wagner's 59-win share 1908 season being the best ever).

Bonds is only 90 win shares away from Ruth, and he averages well above 30 a season. He could get there if he's got 2.5 good seasons left in him. I don't much like him, either, but the stats don't lie.

[AppGuy04]

Bonds is only 90 win shares away from Ruth, and he averages well above 30 a season. He could get there if he's got 2.5 good seasons left in him. I don't much like him, either, but the stats don't lie.

all of those guys played before the "juice" was invented, coincidence, i think not, no matter what Bonds does, it should have an asterisk beside it

[HiHiYikas]

all of those guys played before the "juice" was invented, coincidence, i think not, no matter what Bonds does, it should have an asterisk beside it
Could be...

I don't like the situation as it is. I don't like the fact that Bonds probably used performance-enhancing drugs to pad his stats until they were among the best of all time. It's practically despicable, if you ask me.

Up until a few seasons ago, MLB didn't have a problem with whatever substances made guys like Bonds hit harder and who knows who else pitch harder. They just basked in the ridiculous homerun totals and thanked their lucky stars people were starting to forget the 1994 strike. If Bonds was guilty of doping (I know it's a joke of an 'if), he was only acting the way baseball allowed (indeed, encouraged) him to act. I'm reminded of a Mark McGwire quote from his 'Simpsons' guest appearance: 'Do you want to know the horrible truth, or do you want to see me sock a few dingers?!'

The asterisk would be so hard to apply fairly, given the high number of other players during Bond's career who have also enhanced their abilities with steroids.

But hey, let's put asterisks beside Ruth Cobb, and Gehrig, citing that there were probably black players who were way better, but didn't get a chance to play. Let's put asterisks next to Mays and Aaron, who feasted on expansion-weakened pitching staffs. An asterisk might sound like a good notion on the surface, but it's harder than it sounds.

[AppGuy04]

Could be...

I don't like the situation as it is. I don't like the fact that Bonds probably used performance-enhancing drugs to pad his stats until they were among the best of all time. It's practically despicable, if you ask me.

Up until a few seasons ago, MLB didn't have a problem with whatever substances made guys like Bonds hit harder and who knows who else pitch harder. They just basked in the ridiculous homerun totals and thanked their lucky stars people were starting to forget the 1994 strike. If Bonds was guilty of doping (I know it's a joke of an 'if), he was only acting the way baseball allowed (indeed, encouraged) him to act. I'm reminded of a Mark McGwire quote from his 'Simpsons' guest appearance: 'Do you want to know the horrible truth, or do you want to see me sock a few dingers?!'

The asterisk would be so hard to apply fairly, given the high number of other players during Bond's career who have also enhanced their abilities with steroids.

But hey, let's put asterisks beside Ruth Cobb, and Gehrig, citing that there were probably black players who were way better, but didn't get a chance to play. Let's put asterisks next to Mays and Aaron, who feasted on expansion-weakened pitching staffs. An asterisk might sound like a good notion on the surface, but it's harder than it sounds.


I know its harder than it sounds, just makes me sick to think that some of these guys will be at the top of the record books

then there are guys like ARod who is a great player, but because of all this stuff, people will always wonder hmmmmmmmmm

[dirtbag]

all of those guys played before the "juice" was invented, coincidence, i think not, no matter what Bonds does, it should have an asterisk beside it

Win Shares rates your performance each year relative to the performance of the league as a whole that year, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[dirtbag]

I bet you think we are being racist because we don't like Barry Bonds right?? :rolleyes:



No, but if you don't like Barry Bonds but do like Lance Armstrong, that would be pretty questionable.

[dirtbag]

He's not even close, you'll never mention Bonds name in the same breath as Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Joe DeMaggio, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, or Mickey Mantle.:nonono2:

You have to be kidding. Especially on the "DeMaggio," who is one of the most overrated players in the history of MLB.

[saint0917]

You have to be kidding. Especially on the "DeMaggio," who is one of the most overrated players in the history of MLB.

In your opinion :rolleyes:

[saint0917]

No, but if you don't like Barry Bonds but do like Lance Armstrong, that would be pretty questionable.

What's Lance Armstrong have to do with it:confused:

[Third and Long]

No, but if you don't like Barry Bonds but do like Lance Armstrong, that would be pretty questionable.
What if you have never liked Barry Bonds, and you have liked Lance Armstrong since he beat cancer... is that being a racist?

[AppGuy04]

Actually, its my God-given right to dislike whoever I feel like

whether you feel its justified is irrelevant, he's a cheater, therefore I dislike him

[Gil Dobie]

I have a spreadsheet that I keep on Major League players for greatest single season ever, using all offensive catagories. Below is my top 20. None of Bonds best years during what mose people consider an athletes prime 21-35 years old. Bonds greatest years are from 2001-2004, 36-40 years old. Hey, anyone can rate players right? :)

Ruth,Babe 1921
Bonds,Barry 2001
Ruth,Babe 1920
Gehrig,Lou 1927
Ruth,Babe 1923
Ruth,Babe 1927
Bonds,Barry 2004
Gehrig,Lou 1930
Gehrig,Lou 1934
Foxx,Jimmie 1932
Bonds,Barry 2002
Gehrig,Lou 1936
Williams,Ted 1941
Ruth,Babe 1924
Ruth,Babe 1926
Ruth,Babe 1930
Klein,Chuck 1930
Ruth,Babe 1931
Wilson,Hack 1930
Gehrig,Lou 1931

[AppGuy04]

None of Bonds best years during what mose people consider an athletes prime 21-35 years old. Bonds greatest years are from 2001-2004, 36-40 years old.

coincidence? I think not!

[saint0917]

coincidence? I think not!

The "Juiced" Years.

[AppGuy04]

The "Juiced" Years.

yep, proved my point exactly

[saint0917]

yep, proved my point exactly

There are only a few athletes I don't like, but I have to say I HATE Bonds.

[AppGuy04]

It's blatantly obvious he's a cheater

[HiHiYikas]

Ruth,Babe 1921
Bonds,Barry 2001
Ruth,Babe 1920
Gehrig,Lou 1927
Ruth,Babe 1923
Ruth,Babe 1927
Bonds,Barry 2004
Gehrig,Lou 1930
Gehrig,Lou 1934
Foxx,Jimmie 1932
Bonds,Barry 2002
Gehrig,Lou 1936
Williams,Ted 1941
Ruth,Babe 1924
Ruth,Babe 1926
Ruth,Babe 1930
Klein,Chuck 1930
Ruth,Babe 1931
Wilson,Hack 1930
Gehrig,Lou 1931
Good list, and I am a little shocked to see Chuck Klein on it (with Eddie Collins probably one of the most overlooked players ever.) Klein's overlooked status may be deserved, however, since, in terms of win shares, he's just South of Herb Pennock and Wildfire Schultz (who? and who?). Can't understand how anybody could overlook Honus Wagner's 1908 season (.354, 109 RBI, 201 Hits, 39 Doubles, 10 HR, 54 SB, .542 Slg%).

Best Single seasons ever:
Old Hoss Radbourn, Providence (NL), 1884 - 89 Win Shares - 83.1 from pitching. Astounding, but not out of the ordinary for the pre-modern era when pitchers who saw action in almost every game amassed very high win-share totals. Most of the best win-share seasons on record belong to 19th-century pitchers. The best offensive win share totals for the same era are pretty low. Ed Delahanty's 36.5 batting win shares in 1899 was the highest total before 1900. That's a very good offensive total even by today's standards (A-Rod and Pujols, in better seasons, are usually in that neighborhood.)

So let's get modern, and focus on batting only, just to maintain similarity to Gil's list- Best batting win-share seasons ever:
1. Barry Bonds, 2001 (52.2 Batting win shares)
2. Barry Bonds, 2004 (50.4)
3. Honus Wagner, 1908 (49.2)
4. Babe Ruth, 1923 (48.5)
5. Babe Ruth, 1920 (47.9)
6. Babe Ruth, 1921 (47.7)
7. Barry Bonds, 2002 (46.8)
8. Mickey Mantle, 1957 (46.1)
9. Ted Williams, 1946 (45.1)
10. Barry Bonds, 1993 (44.0)
11. Mickey Mantle, 1956 (43.8)
12. Mickey Mantle, 1961 (43.0)

hey, a lot of this (minus seasons since 2001) is all online right here: http://www.stats.com/store/graphics/wins_leaderboard.pdf

[SunCoastBlueHen]

HHY -

Any idea how this 'Win Share" stat is calculated? I'm not familiar with it.

[Gil Dobie]

Can't understand how anybody could overlook Honus Wagner's 1908 season (.354, 109 RBI, 201 Hits, 39 Doubles, 10 HR, 54 SB, .542 Slg%).

Good year by Hans.

Chuck Klein 1930 (.386, 170 RBI, 250 Hits, 59 Doubles, 40 HR, 4 SB, .687 Slg%, 158 Runs, Struck out only 50 times, 445 Total Bases.

[HiHiYikas]

HHY -

Any idea how this 'Win Share" stat is calculated? I'm not familiar with it.
Sure, here's a short-form explanation and a link to something better:

Win Shares are basically wins created. In other words, the total number of extra wins a player accumulated for his team. Bill James (who, besides being one of the greatest baseball writers ever, has a World Series ring for his work with the 2004 Red Sox to his credit) came up with the system, and wrote a 700-page book about it. So an easy explanation isn't, well, easy.

In a nutshell: (1) Figure runs created for all players on a team, (2) figure outs made by each hitter, (3) divide outs by 12, subtract that from runs created, (4) divide by 3 for hitter's batting win shares. (5) For pitchers as hitters, do the same except don't subtract outs.

(6) For pitchers, multiply league ERA by 1.5 and subtract 1.0, (7) figure how many earned runs the pitcher would have allowed had that been his ERA, (8) subtract his actual earned runs allowed, (9) add his saves, (10) divide by 3 for pitching win shares.

(11) For fielders, players get 1 win share for each 24 games at catcher, 76 games @ 1B, every 28 @2B, 38 @ 3B, 25 @ SS, and 48 in the outfield, (12) figure the team total, and adjust the totals up or down so the team total is equal to three times the team's wins, and (13) round to integers.

That sounds pretty complex, and I guess it is (to me, anyway). But keep in mind that James spends hundreds of pages illustrating how it works and how it's actually very helpful for comparing players across eras positions, leagues, etc. Certain sebermetricians have identified flaws in the system, but it remains one of the most innovative and accurate methods for player-to-player comparison.

Check out this site, and several of the links from it for more info:
http://www.stats.com/store/store.asp?page=wins

Incidentally, I highly reccommend 2 Bill James books, Win Shares and The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract for any baseball fan.

[SunCoastBlueHen]

Sure, here's a short-form explanation and a link to something better:

Win Shares are basically wins created. In other words, the total number of extra wins did a player accumulate for his team. Bill James (who, besides being one of the greatest baseball writers ever, has a World Series ring for his work with the 2004 Red Sox to his credit) came up with the system, and wrote a 700-page book about it. So an easy explanation isn't, well, easy.

In a nutshell: 1) Figure runs created for all players on a team, 2) figure outs made by each hitter, 3) divide outs by 12, subtract that from runs created, 4) divide by 3 for hitter's batting win shares. 5) For pitchers as hitters, do the same except don't subtract outs.

6) For pitchers, multiply league ERA by 1.5 and subtract 1.0, 7) figure how many earned runs the pitcher would have allowed had that been his ERA, 8) subtract his actual earned runs allowed, 9) add his saves, 10) divide by 3 for pitching win shares.

11) For fielders, players get 1 win share for each 24 games at catcher, 76 games @ 1B, every 28 @2B, 38 @ 3B, 25 @ SS, and 48 in the outfield, 12) figure the team total, and adjust the totals up or down so the team total is equal to three times the team's wins, and 13) round to integers.

That sounds pretty complex, and I guess it is (to me, anyway). But keep in mind that James spends hundreds of pages illustrating how it works and how it's actually very helpful for comparing players across eras positions, leagues, etc. Certain sebermetricians have identified flaws in the system, but it remains one of the most innovative and accurate methods for player-to-player comparison.

Check out this site, and several of the links from it for more info:
http://www.stats.com/store/store.asp?page=wins

Incidentally, I highly reccommend 2 Bill James books, Win Shares and The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstractfor any baseball fan.

Thank, HHY! Sounds pretty darn complex to me also, and I work with numbers for a living. :rotateh:

[HiHiYikas]

Incidentally, Bonds' 351 win shares in the 1990's is the highest total for any player during that decade. That's 22% higher than the 2nd best player from the 90's, Craig Biggio, and over 100 win shares better than half of the top-ten players of the 1990's. It's also one of the best decade-totals in the modern era (and the best since Ruth (413) and Hornsby (362) in the 1920's).

He averaged almost 30 win shares a season during his first decade in the big leagues (this includes the mere 15 he posted as a rookie and the impressive 88 he posted from 92-93). These are very high totals - amassed mostly during the "skinny days."

If guys like Canseco and Caminiti are right, and most big-leaguers by mid- to late-90's were using steroids, it's clear that Bonds' drug use was enhancing talent that was already vastly superior to his peers. He has rare talent that, even without steroids, would put him among the top 25 or 30 to ever play the game. Given the same enhancements that have benefited hundreds of his fellow players, he has become the best ever...

I do not like this at all, but I simply cannot deny it.

[HiHiYikas]

Good year by Hans.

Chuck Klein 1930 (.386, 170 RBI, 250 Hits, 59 Doubles, 40 HR, 4 SB, .687 Slg%, 158 Runs, Struck out only 50 times, 445 Total Bases.
Bill James addresses Klein's 1930 season in an essay entitled "Klein and Yastrzemski."

He notes that Klein played in a league that batted .303 and averaged 5.68 runs per game, not to mention a park that inflated runs scored by an average of 27.34% in the 5-year period between 1928 and 1932.

In other words, while Klein's 1930 season was superior to what the average Phillies player ought to have done in that context, his 28 win shares for that season aren't exactly outstanding in the annals of baseball history. Klein's best seasons came in 1933, when he won the triple crown (30 win shares), and 1932 (31 win shares, MVP).

[dirtbag]

What's Lance Armstrong have to do with it:confused:

Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds are basically the same person -- arguably the best ever in their sports, but are also obnoxious, conceited human beings who are dogged by very credible rumors of performance-enhancing drug abuse.

Oh, and Armstrong bailed on his first wife after she gave birth and bailed on Sheryl Crow during her troubles with breast cancer, yet Barry is still married.

Yet Armstrong is for whatever reason given a free pass by the media, while the media makes up derogatory stories about Barry Bonds (see Rick Reilly).

[Gil Dobie]

Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds are basically the same person -- arguably the best ever in their sports, but are also obnoxious, conceited human beings who are dogged by very credible rumors of performance-enhancing drug abuse.

Oh, and Armstrong bailed on his first wife after she gave birth and bailed on Sheryl Crow during her troubles with breast cancer, yet Barry is still married.

Yet Armstrong is for whatever reason given a free pass by the media, while the media makes up derogatory stories about Barry Bonds (see Rick Reilly).

I thought Armstrong was accused of blood-doping, and never admitted to anything.

Bonds has been accused of using steroids and had admitted to it. Lance is the best ever in his sport, Barry is the best ever steroid user in his sport.

[dirtbag]

I thought Armstrong was accused of blood-doping, and never admitted to anything.

Bonds has been accused of using steroids and had admitted to it.

Armstrong has been accused several times of steroid use, including by his former personal assistant.

Bonds did not admit to using steroids. In his grand jury testimony he said that he has never knowingly used steroids and did not believe his trainer would give them to him without his knowledge.

Personally, I think they're both dirty, but I understand Bonds hatred of the media when I keep seeing people claiming that he admitted using steroids.

[Gil Dobie]

Armstrong has been accused several times of steroid use, including by his former personal assistant.

Bonds did not admit to using steroids. In his grand jury testimony he said that he has never knowingly used steroids and did not believe his trainer would give them to him without his knowledge.

Personally, I think they're both dirty, but I understand Bonds hatred of the media when I keep seeing people claiming that he admitted using steroids.

ESPN Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594)
Bonds told a U.S. grand jury that he used undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," which he received from personal trainer Greg Anderson during the 2003 season. According to Bonds, the trainer told him the substances were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a pain-relieving balm for the player's arthritis.

According to government attorneys, BALCO founder Victor Conte has identified the designer steroid THG as "the clear." A testosterone-based ointment was identified as "the cream." Olympic sprinter Tim Montgomery testified that Conte used flaxseed oil containers to send "the clear" to athletes.

[dirtbag]

ESPN Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1937594)
Bonds told a U.S. grand jury that he used undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," which he received from personal trainer Greg Anderson during the 2003 season. According to Bonds, the trainer told him the substances were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a pain-relieving balm for the player's arthritis.

According to government attorneys, BALCO founder Victor Conte has identified the designer steroid THG as "the clear." A testosterone-based ointment was identified as "the cream." Olympic sprinter Tim Montgomery testified that Conte used flaxseed oil containers to send "the clear" to athletes.

You're making my point for me. Read his grand jury testimony. He told the grand jury that he had used substances that he believed were flaxseed oil and arthritis balm. When asked if his trainer might have slipped him steroids without him knowing, he said no.

He DID NOT admit to using steroids, yet that's what much of the media reports, including this article.

(And again, I personally think he's lying, but that's not relevant to what he said.)

[jstate83]

You're making my point for me. Read his grand jury testimony. He told the grand jury that he had used substances that he believed were flaxseed oil and arthritis balm. When asked if his trainer might have slipped him steroids without him knowing, he said no.

He DID NOT admit to using steroids, yet that's what much of the media reports, including this article.

(And again, I personally think he's lying, but that's not relevant to what he said.)

The critic's will never admit that.

There answer will alway's be ..........yeah right.

[AppGuy04]

Lance has been tested 100's of times. Passed them all. To my knowledge, Bonds has never even been tested.

[dirtbag]

Lance has been tested 100's of times. Passed them all. To my knowledge, Bonds has never even been tested.

Then your knowledge is lacking. Under the MLB collective bargaining contract, each player on a 40-man roster is randomly tested at least once a year.

[Third and Long]

Then your knowledge is lacking. Under the MLB collective bargaining contract, each player on a 40-man roster is randomly tested at least once a year.
And if that player fails he can pay the MLB to not let it out and he won't have to serve a suspension.

[dirtbag]

And if that player fails he can pay the MLB to not let it out and he won't have to serve a suspension.

Your knowledge is REALLY lacking.

[Third and Long]

Your knowledge is REALLY lacking.
Sorry that was the last I heard. Please give some of your knowledge.

[Gil Dobie]

You're making my point for me. Read his grand jury testimony. He told the grand jury that he had used substances that he believed were flaxseed oil and arthritis balm. When asked if his trainer might have slipped him steroids without him knowing, he said no.

He DID NOT admit to using steroids, yet that's what much of the media reports, including this article.

(And again, I personally think he's lying, but that's not relevant to what he said.)

He admitted using the Cream, if the Cream had steroids in it, then Barry admitted to using a product, he may or may not have known contained steroids.

Here are some more from the testimonies of other players.

A sixth witness, Yankees outfielder Gary Sheffield, testified that while he trained with Bonds in the Bay Area before the 2002 baseball season, Bonds had arranged for him to receive "the cream," "the clear" and "red beans," which the prosecutors identified as steroid pills manufactured in Mexico.

The Giambis testified they were drawn to Anderson because of Bonds' success.

Other players who admitted their use of performance-enhancing drugs were former Giants Armando Rios, Benito Santiago and Bobby Estalella. The players said they had come to know Anderson because he was Bonds' trainer.

"Nothing was between me and Greg," Sheffield testified. "Barry pretty much controlled everything. ... It was basically Barry (saying), 'Trust me. Do what I do.'

"... I know I've seen Greg give Barry the same thing I was taking. I didn't see him taking those red beans, but I seen him taking this (clear) and this cream here."

Attorneys for Sheffield and Santiago expressed dismay that the secrecy of the grand jury had been violated.

[dirtbag]

He admitted using the Cream, if the Cream had steroids in it, then Barry admitted to using a product, he may or may not have known contained steroids.

He did not admit using "the Cream."

"Bonds testified that he had received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season but was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by The Chronicle.

"And he said he was confident that his trainer hadn't slipped him banned drugs without his knowledge, saying Anderson "wouldn't jeopardize our friendship" by doing that."

[Gil Dobie]

He did not admit using "the Cream."

"Bonds testified that he had received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season but was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by The Chronicle.

"And he said he was confident that his trainer hadn't slipped him banned drugs without his knowledge, saying Anderson "wouldn't jeopardize our friendship" by doing that."

"I never asked Greg" about what the products contained, Bonds testified. "When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, 'Whatever.'

"It was in the ballpark ... in front of everybody. I mean, all the reporters, my teammates. I mean, they all saw it. I didn't hide it."

[jstate83]

Serena Williams FUGGGLY TWIN has been found.:eek:


http://msn.foxsports.com/id/5368508_7_2.jpg

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/5369904_18_1.jpg

http://msn.foxsports.com/id/5368764_7_4.jpg

BARRY BONDS...............xlolx
Yep.........................He looks REALLY worried about the critic's..............xlolx

BTW: I though a person taking roids got smaller when they stopped ............NOT BIGGER.

[Gil Dobie]

Serena Williams FUGGGLY TWIN has been found

BARRY BONDS...............xlolx
Yep.........................He looks REALLY worried about the critic's..............xlolx

BTW: I though a person taking roids got smaller when they stopped ............NOT BIGGER.

LMAO, Bonds was impersonating Paula Abdul xlolx

In Barry's own words......
"Well, you know what? I am still big. I'm fat (6-2, 230 pounds). I can't do much. I can't train like I used to. So the weight stays. I'm just not a skinny person, dude, I'm not." Barry Bonds

[AppGuy04]

dressing up like Paula Abdul will win him points with his teammates, but he's still a cheating ass in my mind and most of the public's mind

[jstate83]

dressing up like Paula Abdul will win him points with his teammates, but he's still a cheating ass in my mind and most of the public's mind

Most of the publics mind".......................According to who?

You and the blowheart sportswriters of the world?xlolx