LFN: The Vote That Didn't Happen, Two Years Later

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/12/vote-that-didnt-happen-two-years-later.html

A peek into the future: November 18th, 2012, when "The Rivalry" played its final game and the Patriot League ceased to exist.

[blukeys]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/12/vote-that-didnt-happen-two-years-later.html

A peek into the future: November 18th, 2012, when "The Rivalry" played its final game and the Patriot League ceased to exist.

Welcome to the CAA LFN!!!!!!!

[letsgopards04]

I am not sure if it will be as apocolyptic as you say, but it is sure possible. Inaction was worse than a no vote. I do think that Lafayette would go D3 before joining the PFL. A schedule of Gettysburg, F&M, Swarthmore and maybe RPI, Union, Hobart sounds a ton better than Valpo, Butler, Dayton. We would at least own the fact that we were D3 rather than send D3 level squads out against D1 competition (I hope).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's eerie that my post doesn't seem like it's an outlandish possibility.

[Neighbor2]

Very well done! An interesting read. By all means, plausible on several fronts.

I truly hope Lehigh shows some "guts" and opts to advance its own football program (with scholarships) outside the Patriot League. Lafayette can have the best facilities in Division III and look forward to earning a trip to Salem, VA some day. Lehigh should STILL schedule Lafayette, of course. Just make it a Labor Day Weekend event.

[Seawolf97]

Really feel for you guys. Recruiting is going to be tough .

[tribe_pride]

LFN - if you were going to give someone a surprise ride to the Final Four, couldn't you have picked W&M instead of Hofstra. :D

Interesting read. We'll see how much it is right in 2 years.

[RichH2]

Cowards on both sides. One side wont fight for what needs to be done and the other is afraid of doing anything at all. Just like all politicians best to make no decision then have to make a hard one. And lo and behold we have an out. There is still 2 years on the scheduling agreement with Fordham and heck CAA is up in the air, lets just sit on our hands for 2 more years. Of course, logically one should prepare for anticipated changes in any landscape but no the PL has elcted to firmly stick their collective heads in the sand.

The economy is bad or we avoided dealing with our gender equity issues and will now have to pay, OK valid reasons to modify and adapt future plans BUT not at all to do NOTHING.

I have been very critical of the unending threads here and elsewhere rehashing the same issues over and over. I have said that the PL had to end the soap opera one way or the other . Yes or No and move on. They couldn't even get that right. I now doubt whether this conference has the will to survive as any other than the Ivies' sidekick.

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery but only for the one being flattered, the other is merely a sycophant soon to be forgotten

[bonarae]

xchinscratchx What will happen to the scheduling of the Ivies if the PL ceased to exist? Do we have to give in to the pressures and schedule South- and West-based FCS teams instead?

[blukeys]

xchinscratchx What will happen to the scheduling of the Ivies if the PL ceased to exist? Do we have to give in to the pressures and schedule South- and West-based FCS teams instead?

You guys are always free to schedule the CAA or NEC.

[Go...gate]

xchinscratchx What will happen to the scheduling of the Ivies if the PL ceased to exist? Do we have to give in to the pressures and schedule South- and West-based FCS teams instead?

I could forsee the Ivies only sceduling themselves, like the NESCAC does now. That would only mean seven games unless you expanded.

(What's that? President Weiss of Lafayette is calling. He wants a closer partnership with the Ivy League for his school....) j/k!

[Model Citizen]

xchinscratchx What will happen to the scheduling of the Ivies if the PL ceased to exist?

What will happen to the scheduling of the Ivies if, two years from now, the PL votes to allow full scholarships? Maybe the Ivy won't like it. As an alternative to the PL, maybe the Ivies schedule more games against the only other non-scholarship league in D-I.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Seventeen inter-league Ivy/Patriot games is as close to a "partnership" for scheduling as you get, I suppose. I am hoping that Dan Weiss had a concrete basis for using that term; that he did not do so frivolously. In other words, somebody on Alexander Street had to have made some sort of representation that Patriot would not be left high and dry in terms of Ivy scheduling if Patriot voted to retain the "Ivy Model" written in to its by-laws. Plus, the academic index never was in play, nor will it be. That had to count for something.

I have to believe that Ivy/Patriot scheduling will remain level and that Georgetown will get the additional Ivy games its seems to desire - though it remains wholly inexcusable and indefensible that the Hoyas turned down a series with Dartmouth. I also hope that the other Presidents applied some pressure on John DeGioia to do something about that sorry stadium - that is if DeGoia even attended the meeting. If you're going to adopt a model that has you playing almost exclusively in Ivy's beautiful, historic stadia, you should at least make some effort to return the gesture.

I don't hold out much hope for Patriot football beyond two years, but there likely will be a non-scholarship conference of some sort in the northeast after that, whether or not it is affiliated with the current Patriot. Likely candidates for inclusion might be Lafayette, Bucknell, Georgetown, possibly Holy Cross and even maybe Marist. If a "scheduling arrangement" with Ivy remains intact, it would be possible for that northeastern non-scholarship league to thrive even with only six members, I suppose. Lafayette, Bucknell, etc. aren't going to Division III and they aren't dropping football. Of course that's entirely contingent on Ivy continuing to schedule the schools, whether by formal agreement or not.

[heath]

Remember the Yankee league?Remember the Patriot league?Send the babies to DIII where they belong and let the big boys move forward.How do you recruit for a school that will not stand up for its future?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Remember the Yankee league?Remember the Patriot league?Send the babies to DIII where they belong and let the big boys move forward.How do you recruit for a school that will not stand up for its future?

Same way we've been doing for the past 140 years, uninterrupted. We're not going to Division III regardless of whether you chose to "send" us or not.

[heath]

Same way we've been doing for the past 140 years, uninterrupted. We're not going to Division III regardless of whether you chose to "send" us or not.

Worked real good this year BM,get used to it

[ColgateTD]

This whole thing (non-decision) sucks!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Worked real good this year BM,get used to it

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but if you are referring to Lafayette's dismal record and comparatively poor play this year, you're absolutely right - we were horrible - compared to the Lafayette teams that have been ranked in the top 25 six of the last seven years. Non-scholarship Lafayette's only non-Ivy OOC opponent this year was a huge, full-scholarship state-funded university, whom we defeated.

And you?

[Go...gate]

This whole thing (non-decision) sucks!

I would be very curious to hear what Colgate's President Herbst had to say. He seems like a decent guy; the devotion to CU football evidenced by the reaction to the Syracuse matchup seemed to send him a very strong message. But maybe he is as two-faced as some others have said.

[Go...gate]

Remember the Yankee Conference? Remember the Patriot League?Send the babies to DIII where they belong and let the big boys move forward.How do you recruit for a school that will not stand up for its future?

Oh, come on. We had viable universities and football programs before many of the schools you refer to even existed, for Pete's sake.

And you can't even remember the correct name of the CAA's predecessor conference - the Yankee Conference.

[bonarae]

You guys are always free to schedule the CAA or NEC.

I'm not sure whether we'll be humiliated by the CAA again. The NEC, I don't know.


I could forsee the Ivies only sceduling themselves, like the NESCAC does now. That would only mean seven games unless you expanded.

(What's that? President Weiss of Lafayette is calling. He wants a closer partnership with the Ivy League for his school....) j/k!

I'd rather move on to cheer for any playoff-participating team in the South or West than to stick with the Ivies if the Ivies move to scheduling themselves only. xbawlingx


What will happen to the scheduling of the Ivies if, two years from now, the PL votes to allow full scholarships? Maybe the Ivy won't like it. As an alternative to the PL, maybe the Ivies schedule more games against the only other non-scholarship league in D-I.

Travel costs may be an issue here. :(

[Go...gate]

What will happen to the scheduling of the Ivies if, two years from now, the PL votes to allow full scholarships? Maybe the Ivy won't like it. As an alternative to the PL, maybe the Ivies schedule more games against the only other non-scholarship league in D-I.

If this dreadful development becomes the PL's permanent policy down the line, the Pioneer (probably less Marist) will have a great many OOC scheduling options, because the PL will seek more and more games with them. I think the same can be said about the NEC with their 40-scholarship limit.

[Fordham]

A few thoughts/questions:

*I feel badly for my PL brethren. Such an unsatisfying (non) end to the process. Very frustrating to see it play out this way as you find out your school is not as committed to the sport as you hoped they would have been (either to have voted yes or to have challenged a school more strongly who was voting no). I don't think this need-be the death knell of PL football but, nonetheless, it sucks and I feel for you.

*This is the first time I haven't felt a "we" moment when something happened with the PL. Not sure exactly why but maybe it's b/c the writing is so clearly on the wall. I guess I feel pleased with the commitments FU has made to the program overall and while the future is uncertain, I do think there is enough "stuff" going on in the Northeast that we'll land somewhere with like-committed institutions.

*Does this announcement extend our scheduling relationship with the PL for two years or is next year still our final year? If it did extend it, this decision was much better for Fordham than a flat out 'no' to scholarships. If not, there's no difference.

*Football at each of your schools will be fine, possibly save Gtown although I really hope that's not the case. Things will shake out in a way in the next two years that those that want to field a full scholarship team will have no problem doing so and those that can't will find a home. All schools have too much alumni and school commitment to let the programs flounder for long imo. I state this only b/c of some of the more dire posts in these threads today about the future of football at PL schools. It might kill the league but your individual programs will be fine (eventually).

Rough one today, fellas, hang in there.

[Chemhen]

LFN, are you mostly tongue-in-cheek here, or do you actually think the Rivalry could end in the next couple years?

[not attacking; just unclear]

[ngineer]

My comment on LFN's blog:

Excellent 'creative writing' Chuck...only, it may not be so creative. I agree with the prior post; save this for reference two years hence so we can see where "we" all are. Academics can't make a tough decision. They have to 'muddle through', follow entrails, meanings. No wonder they're not 'working' in business, and why our governments get so muddled as they are populated to the gills with such 'thinkers'. Make decision and get on with it. How can any PL school seriously tell a recruit we want them in order to compete for a national championship when the truth is their is no philosophical intent to try? If Laugheyette wants to be like Muhlenberg, let them. I think Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham; schools with storied football and academic histories,should cut bait and find a new home. Just like Army and Navy, stay in the PL for all other sports.

[DFW HOYA]

*Football at each of your schools will be fine, possibly save Gtown although I really hope that's not the case.

Football at Georgetown somehow survived before the PL, and it can survive without it if the league goes away.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It's hard to imagine a Patriot League without Fordham. Everything about Fordham football is such a natural fit and part of who we are as a league. At minimum, Fordham ought to be able to compete for the league title for the next two years under and "exemption" status. If that's the case, Fordham is left in a fairly good position as is considers a new home.

I sincerely doubt Fordham simply will waive its hand at the league and run off right away; that just wouldn't be consistent with its institutional demeanor. Nor do I think this is a case of anyone calling Fordham's bluff, so to speak. Fordham made amply clear its intentions. I can only wish the Rams the very best of luck, whatever they decide.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, are you mostly tongue-in-cheek here, or do you actually think the Rivalry could end in the next couple years?

[not attacking; just unclear]

I believe very much that it could end, if Lafayette is hell-bent on being "non-scholarship" and Colgate and/or Lehigh decide that membership in a dying league with no prospect for football expansion is not a future they wish for.

Believe me, I do NOT want "The Rivalry" to end. But I think it's time to envision a future without it, because yesterday really seemed to show that Lafayette's and Lehigh's vision for the future of their athletics programs are different, and unless Colgate/Lehigh's leadership scales down their expectations or Lafayette's (and Holy Cross'?) leadership scales theirs up, at some point the center will not hold.

While the Ents decide whether they're elves or not, it's a near-certainty that Fordham will move to some other situation. To the Rams, a non-decision is a decision that they need to go somewhere else. It further weakens the league, gives no motivation for another school to consider the Patriot League, and makes a school like Lehigh at least mull whether their long-term future is better in the CAA in all sports. It has to be that way.

So, in short, yes, I think the Rivalry could be in jeopardy.

[Franks Tanks]

I believe very much that it could end, if Lafayette is hell-bent on being "non-scholarship" and Colgate and/or Lehigh decide that membership in a dying league with no prospect for football expansion is not a future they wish for.

Believe me, I do NOT want "The Rivalry" to end. But I think it's time to envision a future without it, because yesterday really seemed to show that Lafayette's and Lehigh's vision for the future of their athletics programs are different, and unless Colgate/Lehigh's leadership scales down their expectations or Lafayette's (and Holy Cross'?) leadership scales theirs up, at some point the center will not hold.

While the Ents decide whether they're elves or not, it's a near-certainty that Fordham will move to some other situation. To the Rams, a non-decision is a decision that they need to go somewhere else. It further weakens the league, gives no motivation for another school to consider the Patriot League, and makes a school like Lehigh at least mull whether their long-term future is better in the CAA in all sports. It has to be that way.

So, in short, yes, I think the Rivalry could be in jeopardy.

What you saw yesterday was Weiss's vision for the Lafayette Football team. He will be gone in a few years and what he thinks is irrelevant. Clearly football scholarships at Lafayette will be an uphill battle, but throughout our history we did what was necessary to keep pace with Lehigh. I think when faced with an ultimatium Lafayette will keep pace with Lehigh. As Frank said in the express-times, we all need to calm down.

[RichH2]

Tanks normally I agree with you. But I am an old alum and really dont want to calm down. I have seen 1st hand too often the negatives of "status quo " thinking. If they said well we like to go schollie but there's no money now we'll see next yr. OK, not happy but hey we cant afford it. Table it for 2 yrs and restudy may mean the same but I feel not. Even if economy is great What will change with our opposing camps. A statement now either for or against the concept of merit aid was necessary now even if it couldn't be funded for a while. Absent that this PL seems doomed to be an Ivy appendage if it survives intact in football

[Go...gate]

Tanks normally I agree with you. But I am an old alum and really dont want to calm down. I have seen 1st hand too often the negatives of "status quo " thinking. If they said well we like to go schollie but there's no money now we'll see next yr. OK, not happy but hey we cant afford it. Table it for 2 yrs and restudy may mean the same but I feel not. Even if economy is great What will change with our opposing camps. A statement now either for or against the concept of merit aid was necessary now even if it couldn't be funded for a while. Absent that this PL seems doomed to be an Ivy appendage if it survives intact in football

I'm with you. No action here was a very ominous sign.

[ngineer]

I see the possibility of a new football conference in the northeast in a couple years after this dithering. Made up of Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham (maybe Bucknell), together with some possible machinations of UNH, URI, Bryant, Albany, etal, if Lafayette and Holy Cross are hell bent on staying in the watered down mode. I do not see Lehigh wanting to join the CAA. Nothing in common in its current form..but if the CAA breaks up with Richmond and WM looking for partners (and VU if they come out of their BE dreamland trance), then something with LU, CU, FU, BU, UR, WM and VU would be quite an attractive model.

[Franks Tanks]

I see the possibility of a new football conference in the northeast in a couple years after this dithering. Made up of Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham (maybe Bucknell), together with some possible machinations of UNH, URI, Bryant, Albany, etal, if Lafayette and Holy Cross are hell bent on staying in the watered down mode. I do not see Lehigh wanting to join the CAA. Nothing in common in its current form..but if the CAA breaks up with Richmond and WM looking for partners (and VU if they come out of their BE dreamland trance), then something with LU, CU, FU, BU, UR, WM and VU would be quite an attractive model.

I dont understand why everyone includes Bucknell in these new scholly leagues. Bucknell may have been ok with scholly's in order to preserve the league. If the league blows up they have zero incentive to provide scholarships.

[RichH2]

New leagues to me are fantasy as of yet. Lots has to shake out first . Given our leadership unlikely any thing will be even considered until 2 years too late

[LBPop]

Great piece of writing and certainly not out of the question. From my Georgetown perspective, during my four years as a football Dad it always seemed like the Hoyas wanted to be like the PL powers, but the only people who believed that goal was realistic were the people directly associated with the team, i.e. players, coaches, and their respective families and close friends.

Now that Georgetown has been playing PL football for about ten years there is a large number of football alumni who would be very upset if the school dropped football or slipped back to D-III or club. I can speak from some personal perspective that if a decision like that was made, the administration would hear about it from a whole lot of folks. Perhaps they would not care, but in a strange way I almost hope that a major decision (or indecision) by the PL would shake things up and "call the question" for the Georgetown administration. Up until now they could just let the team win between zero and four games each season, they could continue to have 1,500 to 2,000 people sit in plastic seats on "temporary" stands, and watch their opponents rack up points on a vintage 1990 high school quality scoreboard (which usually works). Maybe an upheaval in the league would wake up someone in DC.

Who am I kidding? The school will probably find a way to keep playing substandard I-AA football and continue to trade on its academic reputation, its location, and its basketball program. How sad.

[ngineer]

New leagues to me are fantasy as of yet. Lots has to shake out first . Given our leadership unlikely any thing will be even considered until 2 years too late

Certainly...No one lives in reality anymore....