LFN: The Vote

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/12/vote.html

How will they vote? I do my best to break it down here - and pitch, one last time, for football scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

"Having said that, I don't necessarily think Georgetown would be out the door if scholarships are approved. The Hoyas would still benefit by being in the league and increasing the amoutn of scholarships gradually."


Yes, but the competitive gap between 5-6 teams approaching 60 and one at zero (or two, or even five) would be eventually untenable. Not in 2011, but at some point. Ask Davidson fans what it was like playing in the Southern Conference in the early 1980's, or check Kansas State's record in the 1970's when it fielded only 47 scholarships vs. 85 in the rest of the Big 8.

Does a net difference of 35 or more scholarships make a difference? Absolutely. I'm not arguing for GU to leave but it ought to at consider other scheduling options if the playing field continues to tilt.

Also not as often discussed--recruiting. How many PL-quality kids are going to turn down a free ride from everyone else to take on significant loans and work-study at Georgetown (with or without facilities), and get beaten down doing so?

[jimbo65]

We are in trouble here. Fordham, Colgate & Lehigh Yes. HC, Gtown, Lafayette No. We need three of these four, Army, Navy, AU & BU. Assuming the Academies vote yea, and that is an assumption, we need either AU or BU to vote yea.
is that likely?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We are in trouble here. Fordham, Colgate & Lehigh Yes. HC, Gtown, Lafayette No. We need three of these four, Army, Navy, AU & BU. Assuming the Academies vote yea, and that is an assumption, we need either AU or BU to vote yea.
is that likely?

IMO, BU is the key here. I doubt all three non-FB votes would abstain if the football members vote 4-3 in favor; similarly, I doubt all would vote yes if it's 3-4 against.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, but the competitive gap between 5-6 teams approaching 60 and one at zero (or two, or even five) would be eventually untenable. Not in 2011, but at some point. Ask Davidson fans what it was like playing in the Southern Conference in the early 1980's, or check Kansas State's record in the 1970's when it fielded only 47 scholarships vs. 85 in the rest of the Big 8.

Does a net difference of 35 or more scholarships make a difference? Absolutely. I'm not arguing for GU to leave but it ought to at consider other scheduling options if the playing field continues to tilt.

Also not as often discussed--recruiting. How many PL-quality kids are going to turn down a free ride from everyone else to take on significant loans and work-study at Georgetown (with or without facilities), and get beaten down doing so?

Have a question for you, DFW. Suppose scholarships happen for the PL. Do you feel like it is "no way no how" that Georgetown ramps up to some number in scholarship aid - due to Title IX, philosophy or whatever - or that it is a possibility that they start small, say, and come up with some sort of donor plan to sponsor at least some scholarships in the future?

I ask because I still see the PL relationship as one that is beneficial for Georgetown in the long run, save Dartmouth dropping football and needing to fill their football membership with a new member.

[carney2]

The following was supplied by Bogie on the Lafayette board and really puts a twist in our collective knickers:

The League Policy and Procedures Manual states (on p. 47): Amendments to the Operational bylaws must be adopted by a majority vote of all member institutions, not only those present at a meeting of the Council of Presidents.

This means that, to pass, football scholarships must receive 6 "yes" votes. An abstention by American, Army or Navy is effectively a "no" vote. LFN projects it as

5 YES: Army, Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh, Navy

4 NO: American, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette

1 TOSSUP: Bucknell

Bucknell may therefore very well be the deciding vote, BUT if, for instance, American abstains because it's not their fight AND Bucknell votes 'yes," scholarships are still, apparently, defeated.

I thought this was decided, but it may be time for the nail biting to resume.

[DFW HOYA]

Have a question for you, DFW. Suppose scholarships happen for the PL. Do you feel like it is "no way no how" that Georgetown ramps up to some number in scholarship aid - due to Title IX, philosophy or whatever - or that it is a possibility that they start small, say, and come up with some sort of donor plan to sponsor at least some scholarships in the future?

Georgetown is not philosophically oppsoed to scholarships, but the labyrinthian nature of Georgetown fundraising suggests very slow progress in endowing any athletic scholarships. (Example: how many men's basketball scholarships at Georgetown are endowed after all these years? One (http://www.guhoyas.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/091608aaa.html).) The school is so focused on need based aid right now that unless a donor was absolutely persistent about it, he or she would be steered into a need-based gift product by someone outside Athletics.

That's not to say the program couldn't do a better job with fundraising (coach Kelly has not been as active in this regard as other coaches may be elsewhere) but the losing records have soured a lot of the base, not to mention the MSF inertia.

Example:

http://hoyatalk2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=football&action=display&thread=23210&page=1

[Fordham]

The following was supplied by Bogie on the Lafayette board and really puts a twist in our collective knickers:

The League Policy and Procedures Manual states (on p. 47): Amendments to the Operational bylaws must be adopted by a majority vote of all member institutions, not only those present at a meeting of the Council of Presidents.

This means that, to pass, football scholarships must receive 6 "yes" votes. An abstention by American, Army or Navy is effectively a "no" vote. LFN projects it as

5 YES: Army, Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh, Navy

4 NO: American, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette

1 TOSSUP: Bucknell

Bucknell may therefore very well be the deciding vote, BUT if, for instance, American abstains because it's not their fight AND Bucknell votes 'yes," scholarships are still, apparently, defeated.

I thought this was decided, but it may be time for the nail biting to resume.

Do any of the non-Fordham "Yes"'s leave if the league DOES NOT goes scholarship?

Do any of the "no"s leave if the league DOES go scholarship?

[Go...gate]

Do any of the non-Fordham "Yes"'s leave if the league DOES NOT goes scholarship?

Do any of the "no"s leave if the league DOES go scholarship?

In response to the first question, I cannot envision that any non-Fordham "Yes" votes would leave.

In response to the second question, it is hard to tell, but IMO, Georgetown would leave.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The New York Times says:


The vote is expected to be close, with Bucknell and Georgetown to side with Lafayette, and Colgate and perhaps Lehigh to vote with Fordham. Many alumni at Holy Cross, which offered football scholarships into the 1980s, may want to return to the glory days, but it is unclear whether the university has the financial wherewithal to do so.

If Bucknell is a "No" vote... then that's bad news for scholarships. But if they're a "Yes"... then I can say that I scooped the New York Times by calling them a "toss-up" rather than being "expected" to side with Lafayette. :D

It's the little things, y'know. ;)

[DFW HOYA]

In response to the first question, I cannot envision that any non-Fordham "Yes" votes would leave.
In response to the second question, it is hard to tell, but IMO, Georgetown would leave.

Depends on the degree.

20 scholarships? Fordham leaves, Georgetown stays.
40 scholarships? Fordham leaves, Georgetown needs to find a new home.
60 scholarships or a 30-40 scholarship minimum enforced? Fordham stays, the PL tells Georgetown to get lost.

[carney2]

The following was supplied by Bogie on the Lafayette board and really puts a twist in our collective knickers:

The League Policy and Procedures Manual states (on p. 47): Amendments to the Operational bylaws must be adopted by a majority vote of all member institutions, not only those present at a meeting of the Council of Presidents.

This means that, to pass, football scholarships must receive 6 "yes" votes. An abstention by American, Army or Navy is effectively a "no" vote. LFN projects it as

5 YES: Army, Colgate, Fordham, Lehigh, Navy

4 NO: American, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette

1 TOSSUP: Bucknell

Bucknell may therefore very well be the deciding vote, BUT if, for instance, American abstains because it's not their fight AND Bucknell votes 'yes," scholarships are still, apparently, defeated.

I thought this was decided, but it may be time for the nail biting to resume.

Apparently I am as dumb as many (most?) on this board have have intimated. Since LFN already has American as a shaky "no," an abstention would be, for all intents and purposes, also a "no." In other words, no change. Using LFN's well considered headcount, I guess it really does come down to Bucknell.

[carney2]

The New York Times says:



If Bucknell is a "No" vote... then that's bad news for scholarships. But if they're a "Yes"... then I can say that I scooped the New York Times by calling them a "toss-up" rather than being "expected" to side with Lafayette. :D

It's the little things, y'know. ;)

The New York Times headcount needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. If you read the article you will find that the author has Lafayette voting "no" early in the article and then "yes" later on. For the moment we should probably go with LFN's version of things. At least he has each school in one, and only one, column. A truly remarkable performance considering his educational credentials.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The New York Times headcount needs to be taken with a large grain of salt. If you read the article you will find that the author has Lafayette voting "no" early in the article and then "yes" later on. For the moment we should probably go with LFN's version of things. At least he has each school in one, and only one, column. A truly remarkable performance... <nothing to read after this, folks...>

Very big of you, carney. xlolx xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Lafayette board is saying the announcement could still come today.

[danefan]

The Lafayette board is saying the announcement could still come today.

Looks like it won't come until tomorrow.

http://twitter.com/LafCol/status/14795524402057216

[Bogus Megapardus]

Looks like it won't come until tomorrow.

http://twitter.com/LafCol/status/14795524402057216

Thanks, danefan. I had no idea Lafayette had an official Twitter page. Too much to follow. I'm going to post this now on the Lafayette board.

[ngineer]

With Bucknell's new Prez coming from Stanford, he certainly knows you can have a quality educational institution and go the scholly route. The only thing that I see keeping BU from voting yes is any internal review that says they cannot afford any level of scholarships due to Title IX or other machinations. Philosophically, and based upon a proud athletic tradition, the Bison should be of a mindset to say 'yes'. The question will whether they can.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We'll find out today, I think.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Paul Reinhard has been doing some great gumshoe work:


Late Tuesday afternoon, a rumor was circulating that the presidents had reached a compromise that even Weiss could endorse.

When told of that, Rappolt said, "I had heard about a month and a half ago that there was a compromise on the table. It was 48 [scholarships] to start with and each school would be given the right to get up to the 63 if they so wished, but they could take their time in getting up there. Apparently, even Georgetown accepted that, but I find that hard to believe. Maybe a smaller number and longer phase-in period makes some sense. I can only light a candle and hope that it works."

If that was/is the compromise deal, what does that mean for Georgetown? I always have felt the "smoke 'em if you've got 'em" was going to be the solution, but if this is what's going down that seems to imply some sort of mandate, which would seem to be real bad news for Georgetown.

[danefan]

Paul Reinhard has been doing some great gumshoe work:



If that was/is the compromise deal, what does that mean for Georgetown? I always have felt the "smoke 'em if you've got 'em" was going to be the solution, but if this is what's going down that seems to imply some sort of mandate, which would seem to be real bad news for Georgetown.

How is that a compromise?

That's a full scholarship conference, isn't it? If you can start with 48 and get up to 63 if you want, how is that not a full scholarship conference?

[TheValleyRaider]

How is that a compromise?

That's a full scholarship conference, isn't it? If you can start with 48 and get up to 63 if you want, how is that not a full scholarship conference?

It sounds like, and this is just a speculative reading of the quote, that teams could immediately go to 48 (Colgate, Lehigh, Fordham), and be able to get up to 63 in some short-term window, while not requiring anything of members who can't/don't want to. In other words, a phased-in "smoke 'em if you've got 'em". Though the quote given is pretty vague

[carney2]

The word on the Lafayette board is

DEFERRED FOR TWO YEARS

No link. No details. Waiting...waiting...wait...

[Ken_Z]

same on the Bucknell board, also from a reliable poster. i was looking for the smiley face, but it is not there. wtf is wrong with these people?

[LUHawker]

The word on the Lafayette board is

DEFERRED FOR TWO YEARS

No link. No details. Waiting...waiting...wait...

That would be a HUGE disappointment. Two years waiting for a decision, two years to implement. I know our fine institutions have a long history that they intend to continue, but 4+ yrs to make something happen is a dud.

Thank you Lafayette.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No word yet about anything from the league office. Sit tight - for now.

And there it is.

[DFW HOYA]

Link:
http://www.patriotleague.org/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/121510aac.html

[Bogus Megapardus]

That would be a HUGE disappointment. Two years waiting for a decision, two years to implement. I know our fine institutions have a long history that they intend to continue, but 4+ yrs to make something happen is a dud.

Thank you Lafayette.

IF it means that the vote is "Yes," but that implementation is deferred for two years in order to keep Lafayette AND Georgetown AND Holy Cross AND Bucknell on board, and it means that Fordham stays as well, I can live with it. I don't necessarily like it, but I can live with it.

Presumably schools can ramp up to 57 need-based right now equivalencies if they like, as they have been able to do all along.

Fordham ought to be able to compete for the league title in the interim, however, IMHO.


EDIT - I just read the release. It's pure BS.

[danefan]

Man that sucks for fans and the programs. Good luck recruiting this year........wow.

[danefan]

IF it means that the vote is "Yes," but that implementation is deferred for two years in order to keep Lafayette AND Georgetown AND Holy Cross AND Bucknell on board, and it means that Fordham stays as well, I can live with it. I don't necessarily like it, but I can live with it.

Presumably schools can ramp up to 57 need-based right now equivalencies if they like, as they have been able to do all along.

Fordham ought to be able to compete for the league title in the interim, however, IMHO.

Read on Bogus....read on.......ouch

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It might as well say on the release: Goodbye, Fordham.

[DFW HOYA]

It might as well say on the release: Goodbye, Fordham.

So much for that expansion committee, too.

[Bogus Megapardus]

There will be no further comment from the Patriot League on this matter.

I guess that means no announcement about addition of new members, which was supposed to be one of the things they were discussing at the meeting.

I assume the announcement that Fordham is resigning its membership will come directly from Fordham and that the league office will have "no comment" on the issue.

[Ken_Z]

we spent the last two years studying this issue to announce that we will study for two more years.

"There will be no further comment from the Patriot League on this matter."

gee, you mean we are going to let Weis going out there on his own to go against be the only on the record statement beyond we are incapable of reaching a conclusion. and this is how we demonstrate our commitment to the "stability and long-term positioning of the league." this should certainly cement the opinion of the world on what our league stands for: inability to govern and make decisions.

[LUHawker]

WHAT A COLOSSAL DISASTER!!!!

No decision is worse than any other decision.

Again, thank you LC - small time thinking Dan Weiss.

2 freaking years! Are you kidding me!!! You namby-pamby PL Presidents have had two years to think about it, what is two more years going to do other than further handicap the teams.

This just flat out sucks! Yes, I am ticked off.

[Fordham]

It might as well say on the release: Goodbye, Fordham.

Not necessarily. We presumably don't have to fill our schedule as an independent now and there's no glitch at all in terms of our recruiting. It gives us two years to come up with a better conference option in the meantime or else wait out the decision and hope that the next two years allows some schools to move in favor of going scholarship for the PL. Again, we move ahead full bore and only have to leave the PL if there's something better out there. Granted, we don't get to play for the title but we can still make the field as an at-large. Not perfect by any means and, in fact, pretty crappy ... but just not necessarily the end of the Fordham-PL relationship.

In addition to being agonizing in a slow death by budha budha way, doesn't this really kill recruiting for you guys? Does anyone know if your coaches were out recruiting kids who they thought they'd be able to offer scholarships to and now they have to backtrack? That sounds devastating to me. Not to mention that they'll NOW need to start recruiting what could be an entirely different group of kids.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Since its inception in 1986, Patriot League football has been considered a separate entity and has maintained a need-limited approach.

This is a very deliberate statement. Nice evasive use of the passive voice there. Considered by whom as a "separate entity?" Is PL football going to break off and separate from the league? That would be the most disastrous of all consequences.

[DFW HOYA]

There will be no further comment from the Patriot League on this matter.

Unanswered questions (for now):
1. Is expansion dead?
2. When does Fordham announce it's out the door?
3. Are Colgate and/or Lehigh angry enough to start looking elsewhere?
4. Which president(s) derailed the rumored 48 scholarship compromise?
5. What will the league look like in two years?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

WHAT A COLOSSAL DISASTER!!!!

No decision is worse than any other decision.

Again, thank you LC - small time thinking Dan Weiss.

2 freaking years! Are you kidding me!!! You namby-pamby PL Presidents have had two years to think about it, what is two more years going to do other than further handicap the teams.

This just flat out sucks! Yes, I am ticked off.

LUHawker, it is much worse than that. Fordham is now basically gone. Marist has no reason to join, because.... in two years, this "discussion" will be happening all over again. Villanova, William & Mary, Richmond? Are you kidding? New Hampshire or Maine? Why on earth would they join the PL now?

Congratulations. We've now lost Fordham, and we have also screwed over expansion on BOTH sides of the aisle. I cannot think of a worse non-decision.

[danefan]

This is a very deliberate statement. Is PL football going to break off and separate from the league? That would be the most disastrous of all consequences.

Why? That's the way the CAA operates.

I think they're just saying that the football conference doesn't have to follow the basketball and others offering scholarships.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Answers below.


1. Is expansion dead? Are you kidding? YES
2. When does Fordham announce it's out the door? As soon as the CAA makes public its interest
3. Are Colgate and/or Lehigh angry enough to start looking elsewhere? Maybe
4. Which president(s) derailed the rumored 48 scholarship compromise? "That School in Easton"s
5. What will the league look like in two years? The League Formerly Known as the Patriot League

[jimbo65]

Very disappointing for Fordham & all those who value PL sports. These people are cowards. Like mushrooms they shun the light. The league is their's but they should have the decency to vote and let all know where they stand. Many of us thought Weiss was caving to the faculty, which he likely was, but he did have the b*lls to make public his decision.

This decision is likely the ruination of PL fball. Not the quick death of a Hofstra but the slow cancerous demise of the league. Soon the PL will be inferior to the NEC, if it is not already.

As an aside, and this is not the major issue here, IMO the PL was disingenuous in dealing w. Fordham. Could they vote it down, sure, but vote.

[Bogus Megapardus]

"Separate entity" - I'm thinking that football is going to split off, with Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh joining UNH, Maine and others. When the league started, no scholarships were allowed and team's weren't allowed to participate in the post season. Then in the 90s basketball scholarships were allowed. Did basketball become a "separate entity?" The in the early 2000s, scholarships were allowed at the discretion of the schools in all sports except football. So did football become a "separate entity" then, and not in 1986?

This is the worst possible thing for the PL which is first and foremost a football conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"Separate entity" - I'm thinking that football is going to split off, with Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh joining UNH, Maine and others. When the league started, no scholarships were allowed and team's weren't allowed to participate in the post season. The in the 90s basketball scholarships were allowed. Did basketball become a "separate entity?" The in the early 2000s, scholarships were allowed at the discretion of the schools in all sports except football. So did football become a "separate entity" then, and not in 1986?

This is the worst possible thing for the PL which is first and foremost a football conference.

This is, seriously, what I'm wondering as well.

New Yankee Conference?
Lehigh
Colgate
Fordham
Stony Brook
Albany
New Hampshire
Maine

Other possibilities - Rhode Island, perhaps?

[LUHawker]

LUHawker, it is much worse than that. Fordham is now basically gone. Marist has no reason to join, because.... in two years, this "discussion" will be happening all over again. Villanova, William & Mary, Richmond? Are you kidding? New Hampshire or Maine? Why on earth would they join the PL now?

Congratulations. We've now lost Fordham, and we have also screwed over expansion on BOTH sides of the aisle. I cannot think of a worse non-decision.

I am so irritated right now that I can barely type, but will quickly respond to you. I agree that it is even worse as you succinctly noted. While I wanted scholarships approved, this limbo state is almost as bad as a firm no-schollie decision. The only, and I mean only, way this is marginally better than a no-schollie decision is that the door is theoretically still open for schollies in the future, but I am sure as heck not counting on it.

Again, that wuss over on College Hill is largely to blame and I would support Lehigh (if in fact we were in the pro-camp) looking to do something with schollies in football even if it jeopardized the Rivalry (and I am loathe to want to do that)

[Franks Tanks]

This is, seriously, what I'm wondering as well.

New Yankee Conference?
Lehigh
Colgate
Fordham
Stony Brook
Albany
New Hampshire
Maine

Other possibilities - Rhode Island, perhaps?

Why would the vote be deferred in Colgate and Lehigh were serious about leaving the league? If there was a serious threat I gotta think they would've voted.

[Bogus Megapardus]

"League presidents expressed their commitment to the stability and long-term positioning of the League."

Marketing bullcrap 101 again - Which league presidents "expressed their commitment?" It doesn't say "The league presidents," thereby suggesting a unanimous or even a plurality view. It says "league presidents," meaning as few as two presidents subscribed to this view, while others are ready to bolt in short order.

I hope to hell the person who wrote this release doesn't have a degree from a Patriot League institution. It's evasive, virtually meaningless, and subject to misinterpretation and conjecture. I'm embarrassed.

[Bogus Megapardus]

the Rivalry

If football splits up you can bet there will be a concerted effort from College Hill alumni to boycott the game. I won't go.

[DFW HOYA]

Some more potentially bad news? Article I of the bylaws states that "Five (5) full member institutions must sponsor a sport at the varsity level in order for it to be added to the list of League sponsored sports outlined above in Article 1."

If any of the core members move football to another conference, the PL discontinues football outright, and the rest of the schools are out in the cold, assuming AU isn't ramping up a replacement program.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/2010.pdf

[Bogus Megapardus]

PL football is as good as dead.

[Ken_Z]

since the PL will neither confirm nor deny, i pronounce the folowing to be a fact:

the votes were there approve scholarships, however, weis subverted the process by stating that he could not commit to the League if scholarships were approved. since no one threatened to leave immediately if they were not, they were deferred for additional study.

[401ks]

I truly feel sorry for you guys.

xsmhx

[TheValleyRaider]

I gotta say, I don't see Colgate jumping ship right now, or in the near future. Not unless that Ivy League slot opens up (xlolx)

Even severely diminished, the PL is a better home than Independence, and unless this Yankee Conference (or some other option) is already on the table behind the scenes, then I don't see any kind of rapid decision-making from Hamilton

The only potential brightspot I can see is that the Pro-scholarship crowd agreed to a deferment in the hopes of winning over some of the Anti-group, and 2 years was the deal they could get. Of course, that's speculative at best, and it's hard to spin this decision as anything other than disappointing. We have decided that we haven't decided. Delightful

[Lehigh Football Nation]

since the PL will neither confirm nor deny, i pronounce the folowing to be a fact:

the votes were there approve scholarships, however, weis subverted the process by stating that he could not commit to the League if scholarships were approved. since no one threatened to leave immediately if they were not, they were deferred for additional study.

Including Fordham???

[letsgopards04]

I gotta say, I don't see Colgate jumping ship right now, or in the near future. Not unless that Ivy League slot opens up (xlolx)

Even severely diminished, the PL is a better home than Independence, and unless this Yankee Conference (or some other option) is already on the table behind the scenes, then I don't see any kind of rapid decision-making from Hamilton

The only potential brightspot I can see is that the Pro-scholarship crowd agreed to a deferment in the hopes of winning over some of the Anti-group, and 2 years was the deal they could get. Of course, that's speculative at best, and it's hard to spin this decision as anything other than disappointing. We have decided that we haven't decided. Delightful

I agree with this line of thinking. Maybe there were not enough votes for schollies so they tabled it in order to drum up support rather than vote it down. Maybe the academies abstained? Maybe it was Fordham, Lehigh, Colgate - Yes, Bucknell, HC, Lafayette - Gtown No. Maybe Army and Navy want this but don't want to get involved and rather pushed for tabling rather than an outright no vote.

[Ken_Z]

Including Fordham???

no, Fordham said they expect to honor the remaining two years of their affiliate/scheduling convenience agreement and go from there. however, if the right opportunity arrises that requires them to depart prior to that, they will have to consider (and should do) it. Lafayette held more sway as a full member and being less willing to make nice on the issue.

[DFW HOYA]

"Frank McLaughlin, Fordham’s executive athletic director, declined to comment Wednesday. Before the decision, however, he had said that Fordham would like to continue to play football in the Patriot League, but that it would not hesitate to go elsewhere if scholarships were not approved."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/sports/ncaafootball/16patriot.html

[letsgopards04]

"Frank McLaughlin, Fordham’s executive athletic director, declined to comment Wednesday. Before the decision, however, he had said that Fordham would like to continue to play football in the Patriot League, but that it would not hesitate to go elsewhere if scholarships were not approved."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/sports/ncaafootball/16patriot.html

Why? Haha obviously the league would rather talk than act. The league Presidents don't respect Fordham's program so why should they stay around.

[Dane96]

This is, seriously, what I'm wondering as well.

New Yankee Conference?
Lehigh
Colgate
Fordham
Stony Brook
Albany
New Hampshire
Maine

Other possibilities - Rhode Island, perhaps?

I'd add CCSU and Monmouth...and that would be a real solid regional league. Maybe even RMU.

[jimbo65]

Can Fordham eliminate the AI now, or at least the one that was crafted to screw us.

[letsgopards04]

Can Fordham eliminate the AI now, or at least the one that was crafted to screw us.

The AI is something where there be no action to remove. It ain't going anywhere. If you don't want the AI, maybe you can have UMASS' spot in the CAA?

[Franks Tanks]

Can Fordham eliminate the AI now, or at least the one that was crafted to screw us.

Since you are ineligible for league championships you can essentially do whatever you want. How can the league further penalize the Rams?

[Fordham]

Some more potentially bad news? Article I of the bylaws states that "Five (5) full member institutions must sponsor a sport at the varsity level in order for it to be added to the list of League sponsored sports outlined above in Article 1."

If any of the core members move football to another conference, the PL discontinues football outright, and the rest of the schools are out in the cold, assuming AU isn't ramping up a replacement program.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/2010.pdf

This is the most critical piece of info imo. Pretty much explains all.

[letsgopards04]

Since you are ineligible for league championships you can essentially do whatever you want. How can the league further penalize the Rams?

The league could just kick them out now. Each PL team would only to find one game. Fordham would need to find as an independant because I doubt they could join a conference this spur of the moment.

[Franks Tanks]

The league could just kick them out now. Each PL team would only to find one game. Fordham would need to find as an independant because I doubt they could join a conference this spur of the moment.

Each PL team could still make the decision to keep Fordham on the schedule. Fordham should just leave the god awful situation. They would probably get at least 4 PL teams to play them for the next 2 or 3 years until they find a home.

[letsgopards04]

Stupid NCAA. Maybe we should just drop to DIII. We have to stop half-assing it. Do it right or don't do it at all.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The league could just kick them out now. Each PL team would only to find one game. Fordham would need to find as an independant because I doubt they could join a conference this spur of the moment.


Each PL team could still make the decision to keep Fordham on the schedule. Fordham should just leave the god awful situation. They would probably get at least 4 PL teams to play them for the next 2 or 3 years until they find a home.

They won't need two years. Trust me.

[Neighbor2]

Obviously, the current Patriot League (collective) has no vision of future growth for its football programs. They're content to be a MINOR player at the national FCS level. How boring.

I'm hopeful Lehigh, maybe Colgate, opts now to drop out as a football member of the Patriot League, like Army, Navy, American. Go with football scholarships, play INDEPENDENT ball for now. I can think of several exciting new match-ups with teams from other FCS leagues, even lower tier FBS schools.

[letsgopards04]

Obviously, the current Patriot League (collective) has no vision of future growth for its football programs. They're content to be a MINOR player at the national FCS level. How boring.

I'm hopeful Lehigh, maybe Colgate, opts now to drop out as a football member of the Patriot League, like Army, Navy, American. Go with football scholarships, play INDEPENDENT ball for now. I can think of several exciting new match-ups with teams from other FCS leagues, even lower tier FBS schools.

The lack of vision is the worst. Vote yes or no but vote. Weiss would have us join the NESCAC where we would put 100 people in Fisher Stadium in the shadow of Bourger House, which I am sure was funded in good faith that we would gain football schollies.

[letsgopards04]

News Out!

Colgate and Lehigh have officially bolted from the Patriot League as of today. Little did anyone know but they were secretly invited to join the Big East and have secretly been recruiting 5 star high school footbally players with full athletic scholarships since Sept 2010. In fact, it has now been revealed that both schools now rank in the top ten in Div. I FBS recruiting classes this year - behind Florida, Texas and USC, but ahead of Penn State, Pittsburgh and Syracuse.

You got greedy! You had me going until the recruiting class rankings.

[DFW HOYA]

The lack of vision is the worst. Vote yes or no but vote. Weiss would have us join the NESCAC where we would put 100 people in Fisher Stadium in the shadow of Bourger House, which I am sure was funded in good faith that we would gain football schollies.

And yet, Weiss could still go to the Marquis donors and tell them "I simply didn't have the leverage to commit to $1.4 million in additional annual spending. But if you can raise this figure in two years, we'll be a "go" for scholarships and Lehigh and us move together."

Yes, he could have made that case six months ago, and yes, there may be only 4-5 schools in the league after 2012. But it's not the end of the discussion, either.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

and in an updated announcement by Lehigh, its Trustees have voted to sink approximately 1/4 of the school's endowment, about $230 million, into increasing the size of the Murray Goodman Stadium from 16,000 seats to 60,000 seats, making it the top college venue for residents of the Philadelphia/New York City corridor. In addition, the field will be named "The Andy Coen Field at Murray Goodman Stadium"

Best of all, plenty of parking!

[carney2]

What's to stop Colgate and/or Lehigh from releasing the following statement:

"We love the Patriot League and the schools in it. We have no current intention to leave the League, but will be joining Fordham as full scholarship programs for football, effective immediately."

And, what's to stop Army and/or Navy from taking more or less the same position that Army took when Holy Cross said "we want basketball scholarships?" IF Colgate or Lehigh took action, some strong-armed back room maneuvering by the academies might become a reality.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

and finally, Lehigh announced that it will be changing its mascot and name back to the Engineers, after considerable pressure was put by the old line alumni that promised to donate the $230 million expense of the new stadium in the next five years to refund the Endowment.

You had me until.... Nevermind. xlolx

Have to laugh or else I'll cry.

[colorless raider]

I gotta say, I don't see Colgate jumping ship right now, or in the near future. Not unless that Ivy League slot opens up (xlolx)

Even severely diminished, the PL is a better home than Independence, and unless this Yankee Conference (or some other option) is already on the table behind the scenes, then I don't see any kind of rapid decision-making from Hamilton

The only potential brightspot I can see is that the Pro-scholarship crowd agreed to a deferment in the hopes of winning over some of the Anti-group, and 2 years was the deal they could get. Of course, that's speculative at best, and it's hard to spin this decision as anything other than disappointing. We have decided that we haven't decided. Delightful

VR, you are clueless. Nothing will happen but a "no" in two years. It is OVER. Go back Boise State.

[colorless raider]

Can Fordham eliminate the AI now, or at least the one that was crafted to screw us.

Do what you want as you will not win with that coaching staff.

[fball27]

For this to happen somebody has to grow a set of balls. I do like your logic, though.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

What's to stop Colgate and/or Lehigh from releasing the following statement:

"We love the Patriot League and the schools in it. We have no current intention to leave the League, but will be joining Fordham as full scholarship programs for football, effective immediately."

And, what's to stop Army and/or Navy from taking more or less the same position that Army took when Holy Cross said "we want basketball scholarships?" IF Colgate or Lehigh took action, some strong-armed back room maneuvering by the academies might become a reality.

If Colgate and Lehigh both add scholarships without a vote permitting it, they would both also be ineligible for league titles and the AQ, correct? That could create an interesting situation where one of the three, or even all three, are on top of the league standings at the end of the year (which isn't an outlandish proposition) but the AQ would go to the fourth place team instead.

I suppose the NCAA could still award an at large playoff bid to one of the Lehigh/Colgate/Fordham schools, so if there season was good enough they could still play in the postseason without the blessing of the PL, correct?

[fball27]

For this to happen somebody has to grow a set of balls. I do like your logic, though.

Oops sorry, this response was to Carney.

[UNH Fanboi]

If Colgate and Lehigh both add scholarships without a vote permitting it, they would both also be ineligible for league titles and the AQ, correct? That could create an interesting situation where one of the three, or even all three, are on top of the league standings at the end of the year (which isn't an outlandish proposition) but the AQ would go to the fourth place team instead.

I suppose the NCAA could still award an at large playoff bid to one of the Lehigh/Colgate/Fordham schools, so if there season was good enough they could still play in the postseason without the blessing of the PL, correct?

I believe that the PL would no longer have an autobid in that scenario.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What's to stop Colgate and/or Lehigh from releasing the following statement:

"We love the Patriot League and the schools in it. We have no current intention to leave the League, but will be joining Fordham as full scholarship programs for football, effective immediately."

And, what's to stop Army and/or Navy from taking more or less the same position that Army took when Holy Cross said "we want basketball scholarships?" IF Colgate or Lehigh took action, some strong-armed back room maneuvering by the academies might become a reality.

The problem with that is that as of that moment, the Patriot League either allows scholarships for all its members, or the Patriot League no longer sponsors football with only four members "playing by the rules". In addition, there would be the potential of losing Lehigh and Colgate, two "core members", in the other sports.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

In addition, there would be the potential of losing Lehigh and Colgate, two "core members", in the other sports.

Why shouldn't Colgate and Lehigh add scholarships then and force the PL's hand? The PL isn't going to kick out both schools, doing so would destroy the league. Basically, if Colgate and Lehigh were to both add scholarships the PL would have no choice but to allow them for the rest of the league - kicking out the scholarships would destroy everything, and continuing on doing nothing would completely undermine the league's authority in the eyes of all of the members.

[Franks Tanks]

Why shouldn't Colgate and Lehigh add scholarships then and force the PL's hand? The PL isn't going to kick out both schools, doing so would destroy the league. Basically, if Colgate and Lehigh were to both add scholarships the PL would have no choice but to allow them for the rest of the league - kicking out the scholarships would destroy everything, and continuing on doing nothing would completely undermine the league's authority in the eyes of all of the members.

I don't know if either school wants scholarships badly enough to take such measures.

[Ken_Z]

if they were going to force the issue, they would have done it at the meetings. they could have forced a vote and scholarships would have passed if they threatened to leave or intitute regardless. only Lafayette would take a stand against that if it meant the death of the league, and even they would likely have ultimately come along. bottom line, the schools that want schollies were not prepared to take that kind of action, one that doesn't was willing to at least bluff that they were ready to kill the league.

[fball27]

if they were going to force the issue, they would have done it at the meetings. they could have forced a vote and scholarships would have passed if they threatened to leave or intitute regardless. only Lafayette would take a stand against that if it meant the death of the league, and even they would likely have ultimately come along. bottom line, the schools that want schollies were not prepared to take that kind of action, one that doesn't was willing to at least bluff that they were ready to kill the league.

You hit the nail on the head. It looks like nobody was willing to play hardball at the kangaroo court.

[Lafalumni29]

I don't know if either school wants scholarships badly enough to take such measures.

Exactly. Weiss and/or other's could have held Colgate and Lehigh off for two years by telling them they would be open to scholarships if finances were better. Give us two years to see where we are. Then, if things don't change, LU and Colgate will bail.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Some random thoughts that are going on here inside my head on this whole affair.

* Couldn't Colgate or Lehigh still do a 180 at any time and still say, "We're going to start offering football scholarships anyway"? A possible scenario is, say, that Fordham accepts an invite to the CAA, and Lehigh and Colgate look at a six-team football conference and say that "in order to 'preserve their football program', it has to be done." I mean - right now, the Patriot League is seven members. When Fordham actually does leave, might Colgate and/or Lehigh take individual action, looking at a six team Patriot League with little hope for expansion?

* Could there be a shred of truth to this "the presidents are waiting to see what happens with the CAA before taking action"? I have an extremely hard time believing it, because if they were thinking along those lines they would have adopted scholarships yesterday. There's no way any current CAA members would join the PL without 63 scholarships.

* It's hard to escape the conclusion that scholarships were prevented by one man, who was perhaps willing to yank his school from the league over the matter of scholarships, and nine other gentlepeople in the room who were unwilling to do the same FOR scholarships.

* What about expansion? Are/were there schools lined up for expansion, and are now left twisting in the wind?

[TheValleyRaider]

VR, you are clueless. Nothing will happen but a "no" in two years.

Woah woah, there's no need for that

I offered that as speculation only, and exceedingly optimistic at that. I hardly expect anything to change within two years, and while I love Colgate and Colgate football, I don't think the administration wants scholarships nearly enough to twist the arms necessary to do it

If someone offers to break up the League, it's not going to be us. Should it be? Totally different question

[RichH2]

Regardless of the why or who, the bottom line was $$$$$$$$ , lets wait 2 more yrs maybe the economy will be better and then we'll go along with schollies. Certain that Cross and Pards were in this camp. GU a firm no. The joys of politics table the issue for more study when you've already had yrs to study. Maybe with improved econmy they will go along but in reality no matter hao good the economy gets the same group will be opposed for different stated reasons. Effectively the end of the Patroit League in football . I am diappointed that Gate and Lehigh did not push the issue hard enuf. Altho I guess as with most politicians NO DECISION is so much better than making a hard decision. It was nice having Fordham in the PL , I wish them the best of luck. The sheer lack of gumption here really ticks me off. Damn