Patriot League Scholarships (Again)

[breezy]

From today's Worcester Telegram:

"Scholarships being debated

The football scholarship discussion has been ongoing in the Patriot League and a decision on the matter will be coming soon.

Patriot League presidents will vote on football scholarships Dec. 13.

If they vote in favor of adding scholarships, the next issues to address would be how many scholarships and when schools can start awarding them.

FCS schools are allowed to give up to 63 full scholarships, but sources said Patriot League schools are not likely to approve that number. They could, however, compromise on a lower number.

Fordham began awarding football scholarships this year. The Rams are still an associate member of the Patriot League, but they were not eligible for the league title or automatic playoff bid."

[ngineer]

From today's Worcester Telegram:

"Scholarships being debated

The football scholarship discussion has been ongoing in the Patriot League and a decision on the matter will be coming soon.

Patriot League presidents will vote on football scholarships Dec. 13.

If they vote in favor of adding scholarships, the next issues to address would be how many scholarships and when schools can start awarding them.

FCS schools are allowed to give up to 63 full scholarships, but sources said Patriot League schools are not likely to approve that number. They could, however, compromise on a lower number.

Fordham began awarding football scholarships this year. The Rams are still an associate member of the Patriot League, but they were not eligible for the league title or automatic playoff bid."

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! Don't tell Carney about this thread!

[Go...gate]

I believe this is very close to happening, but the ground has been shifting whilst the PL Presidents have dithered.

[TheValleyRaider]

Well, I'm not sure limiting scholarships solves the Fordham situation, as aren't the Rams ramping up to the full-scholarship level?

Plus, I know Colgate will want scholarships at least in part to get FBS games. Syracuse would appear to be more the exception than the rule, and FBS teams shy away from FCS programs that don't count towards bowl eligibility

[Jackman]

The only scholarship numbers that make sense are 0 or 56.7+. The latter is the minimum number needed to be a counter to a FBS team for their bowl eligibility. Choosing a number like 30 and losing both Fordham and Georgetown would be the ultimate Patriot League facepalm move.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The only scholarship numbers that make sense are 0 or 56.7+. The latter is the minimum number needed to be a counter to a FBS team for their bowl eligibility. Choosing a number like 30 and losing both Fordham and Georgetown would be the ultimate Patriot League facepalm move.

It make sense to limit scholarships for a short while if it means keeping Georgetown, Lafayette and Bucknell in the league while not losing Fordham and Colgate. One rumor from the Lafayette board (the current source of such rumors) is that there will be a 48 scholarship limit at the start with individual schools having the option to go to 63 at some point.

The gamble (if you can call it that) is that Fordham will limit its scholarships for a while and that Georgetown will remain in the Patriot. My guess is that it will work out OK - both schools are vital and essential to Patriot success. Remember as well that one of the oft-repeated themes from the league office is that the December announcement will address not only scholarships but expansion as well.

[Kramden]

If they do not allow some lowering of Academic Standards, they will still have difficulty competing with some of the power conferences. It's been a long time since the mid-eighties when these schools, especially Lehigh, Colgate, and Holy Cross, were legitimate top 10 teams. I'd like to see some of the stronger academic schools in the CAA join forces and create an expanded Patriot League, if that is possibe.

[Bogus Megapardus]

If they do not allow some lowering of Academic Standards, they will still have difficulty competing with some of the power conferences. It's been along time since the mid-eighties when these schools, especially Lehigh, Colgate, and Holy Creoss, were legitimate top 10 teams. I'd like to see some of the stronger academic schools join forces and create an expanded Patriot League, if that is possibe.

I think the league can accept having difficulty competing with the power conferences - as long as it can compete. I sincerely doubt it will lower the academic standards. It wouldn't be the Patriot League if it did.

[DFW HOYA]

One rumor from the Lafayette board (the current source of such rumors) is that there will be a 48 scholarship limit at the start with individual schools having the option to go to 63 at some point. The gamble (if you can call it that) is that Fordham will limit its scholarships for a while and that Georgetown will remain in the Patriot.

How exactly does non-scholarship Georgetown compete in a 48 scholarship league any better than a 63 scholarship one?

[RichH2]

I also heard the 48 schollie number from a different source but that does not preclude getting to the FBS level to schedule by using need equivalencies to get over 57 total

[Bogus Megapardus]

I also heard the 48 schollie number from a different source but that does not preclude getting to the FBS level to schedule by using need equivalencies to get over 57 total

Which means Colgate, Lehigh and Fordham will be at 56.7 from the get-go.

[RichH2]

Pretty much my view also. I would think if merit aid OKed ,at whatever level, a number of them will go to kids already on squad in bits and pieces. A kid getting need might get balance of tuition via merit next year.

[superman7515]

If Lehigh goes to UNI and wins, does this hurt the chances at getting scholarships by reducing the admin/alumni/fans sense of urgency to decrease the perceived gap in competitiveness?

[Bogus Megapardus]

If Lehigh goes to UNI and wins, does this hurt the chances at getting scholarships by reducing the admin/alumni/fans sense of urgency to decrease the perceived gap in competitiveness?

This question has been pondered throughout the season every time a Patriot team plays a full scholarship team. The consensus seems to be that this has been one of the worst Patriot seasons ever, with the league winning only two full scholarship games, I believe. I'd like to see Lehigh win but I doubt a single game will affect the December vote which is scheduled to take place December 13-14, it is believed. This has been in the works for a while.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If Lehigh goes to UNI and wins, does this hurt the chances at getting scholarships by reducing the admin/alumni/fans sense of urgency to decrease the perceived gap in competitiveness?

I highly doubt it. HC played very well against Villanova last year so that proved the top PL teams can still compete.

[superman7515]

I was just thinking it could perhaps lend some ammo to any schools still opposed by saying that the league can still win in the playoffs, against a scholarship team, away from home, in a dome, etc with whatever else you want to come up with. Not hoping for a derailment of your hopes, just curious if it would almost be a negative to win the game.

[Go...gate]

The only scholarship numbers that make sense are 0 or 56.7+. The latter is the minimum number needed to be a counter to a FBS team for their bowl eligibility. Choosing a number like 30 and losing both Fordham and Georgetown would be the ultimate Patriot League facepalm move.

Agreed.

[Go...gate]

It make sense to limit scholarships for a short while if it means keeping Georgetown, Lafayette and Bucknell in the league while not losing Fordham and Colgate. One rumor from the Lafayette board (the current source of such rumors) is that there will be a 48 scholarship limit at the start with individual schools having the option to go to 63 at some point.

The gamble (if you can call it that) is that Fordham will limit its scholarships for a while and that Georgetown will remain in the Patriot. My guess is that it will work out OK - both schools are vital and essential to Patriot success. Remember as well that one of the oft-repeated themes from the league office is that the December announcement will address not only scholarships but expansion as well.

Problem is that realistically, there are no legitimate all-sports candidates on the radar.

[RichH2]

Only qualification I will a.dd Gate is that there are no all sports candidates as PL is presently formulated

[Go...gate]

Only qualification I will a.dd Gate is that there are no all sports candidates as PL is presently formulated

Right. It is not unreasonable to think that the PL may become a viable all-sports destination for some schools if the move is made. VMI certainly comes to mind, as do selected northeastern CAA members. I can't help thinking of Hofstra - what a swing and miss that was by the PL in the mid 1990's, and now, when we might be able to discuss membership with them again, they drop FB.

[DFW HOYA]

Problem is that realistically, there are no legitimate all-sports candidates on the radar.

And if there were, the academic index adds another hurdle to overcome, because most expansion candidates would not (or could not) recruit with it.

Here are the middle 50% SAT ranges for the existing PL schools:

Georgetown 1300-1500
Colgate 1270-1460
Bucknell 1230-1400
Lehigh 1220-1340
Holy Cross 1210-1370
Lafayette 1170-1380
Fordham 1140-1340

If the league-wide AI sets a range in the 1200s on the SAT's (CR and math only), how would some of the "expansion candidates" variously discussed fit within this model? Two words: not well.

VMI 1050-1220
Duquesne 1030-1210
Albany 1030-1210
Monmouth 1000-1170
Rhode Island 970-1180
Maine 950-1170
Central Connecticut: 930-1110

Yes, grades also fit into the AI, but again, none of these schools currently have to justify grades and SAT's now to meet CAA or NEC requirements, so why would they limit football recruits to the top third of their overall applicant base, just to play in the PL?

[Go...gate]

DFW, your point is well taken. The PL may have no choice but to stand pat.

What are Marist's middle 50% SAT ranges? I know LFN is a strong supporter of their affiliation, but I have not been thrilled about it based upon endowment. But academically, how do they stack up?

[DFW HOYA]

What are Marist's middle 50% SAT ranges? I know LFN is a strong supporter of their affiliation, but I have not been thrilled about it based upon endowment. But academically, how do they stack up?

Marist: 1060-1260

(all numbers courtesy http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com)

[Go...gate]

Lehigh's win over UNI, as good as it is, raises a problem. Will the PL Presidents see this is as an excuse to maintain the status quo? I surely hope not.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

This has been my first year following PL Football here on AGS. While it was a tough season at Bucknell, I enjoyed your thoughtful approach to the range of League topics. It seems that some of seniormost posters are really damaged from the past several presidential decisions or a lack thereof, and I do not see reasons for cringing from Dec 13 and any announcements.

Lehigh's win at Northern Iowa, its second road win in Iowa this season, is in no way grounds for for calling for any further delay on implementing fball scholarships. While Lehigh was beating an MVFC team, I know that Bucknell and others were helpless to staunch the bleeding. I can imagine that this has taken some quiet League subcommittees developing proposals, winnowing down final documents and then discussions within institutions. I cannot imagine the sorts of anal detail work. consensus mathwork, and the , of course, dumbing down by the Front Office that will come together on that date.


As for expansion, I have not heard much mention of the current Pioneer Football League members, aside from Marist. What is the chance that American could add football, as was mentioned in coverage inn CS.com archive?

[Go...gate]

This has been my first year following PL Football here on AGS. While it was a tough season at Bucknell, I enjoyed your thoughtful approach to the range of League topics. It seems that some of seniormost posters are really damaged from the past several presidential decisions or a lack thereof, and I do not see reasons for cringing from Dec 13 and any announcements.

Lehigh's win at Northern Iowa, its second road win in Iowa this season, is in no way grounds for for calling for any further delay on implementing fball scholarships. While Lehigh was beating an MVFC team, I know that Bucknell and others were helpless to staunch the bleeding. I can imagine that this has taken some quiet League subcommittees developing proposals, winnowing down final documents and then discussions within institutions. I cannot imagine the sorts of anal detail work. consensus mathwork, and the, of course, dumbing down by the Front Office that will come together on that date.

As for expansion, I have not heard much mention of the current Pioneer Football League members, aside from Marist. What is the chance that American could add football, as was mentioned in coverage in the CS.com archive?

I think in AU's case it is very much a financial and facility issue. It will cost them a great deal to start from scratch. However, if they were to do it it would, IMO, be the best scenario of all, because AU is formally committed to the PL as part of their institutional Strategic Plan, and they have worked to bring themselves within the PL's own conference guidelines.

Though I am not a great fan of "Associate Members", I truly hope Fordham and Georgetown remain in the league. While it troubles me that Georgetown has not made more of a commitment to its program, I well remember the struggles Fordham had in bringing its program alongside the rest of the conference in its first decade or so in the league. As for Fordham, I truly believe they are a good fit with the PL, but the scholarship/AI issues have caused a rift which may not be repairable. Only time will tell.

With regard to new all-sports members, with the demise of football at Fairfield, Hofstra and Northeastern, and the unlikely upgrade of Division III programs at Johns Hopkins, Hobart, Union, RPI or Gettysburg, I have reached the conclusion that if the PL is to expand, the most realistic candidates are Marist and/or VMI.

I believe that in the long term, Marist, which has a forward-thinking Board of Trustees and an aggressive institutional advancement program, could very well become another American and as such, a good fit for the conference. I can certainly live with their admission to the PL as an all-sports member. Indeed, if the PL eschews football scholarships, they may be the PL's ONLY fit as an all-sports member.

VMI seems, IMO, a natural addition because of the presence of West Point and Annapolis, who already play VMI in many sports (including football). It is a prestigious institution which has a long history and a loyal alumni base (which I believe most PL schools have). They offer scholarships in all sports and, assuming the PL goes to FB scholarships, would have a relatively smooth transition in joining the conference.

Just my thoughts....

[lehidude]

With regard to new all-sports members, with the demise of football at Fairfield, Hofstra and Northeastern, and the unlikely upgrade of Division III programs at Johns Hopkins, Hobart, Union, RPI or Gettysburg, I have reached the conclusion that if the PL is to expand, the most realistic candidates are Marist and/or VMI.



I know there's a grass roots campaign to restore football to Boston University. If we somehow restrict scholarships as to keep the costs down, I wonder how much interest there would be on their end to join as an associate member? That'd be a nice geographic rivalry with Holy Cross.

[Pards Rule]

From today's Worcester Telegram:

"Scholarships being debated

The football scholarship discussion has been ongoing in the Patriot League and a decision on the matter will be coming soon.

Patriot League presidents will vote on football scholarships Dec. 13.

If they vote in favor of adding scholarships, the next issues to address would be how many scholarships and when schools can start awarding them.

FCS schools are allowed to give up to 63 full scholarships, but sources said Patriot League schools are not likely to approve that number. They could, however, compromise on a lower number.

Fordham began awarding football scholarships this year. The Rams are still an associate member of the Patriot League, but they were not eligible for the league title or automatic playoff bid."

OK, I would assume that is being worked on concurrently? I mean if the vote is yes they then should be able to say the number so schools dont have to waste valuable recruiting time waiting for answers...

[superman7515]

And if there were, the academic index adds another hurdle to overcome, because most expansion candidates would not (or could not) recruit with it.

Here are the middle 50% SAT ranges for the existing PL schools:

Georgetown 1300-1500
Colgate 1270-1460
Bucknell 1230-1400
Lehigh 1220-1340
Holy Cross 1210-1370
Lafayette 1170-1380
Fordham 1140-1340

If the league-wide AI sets a range in the 1200s on the SAT's (CR and math only), how would some of the "expansion candidates" variously discussed fit within this model? Two words: not well.

VMI 1050-1220
Duquesne 1030-1210
Albany 1030-1210
Monmouth 1000-1170
Rhode Island 970-1180
Maine 950-1170
Central Connecticut: 930-1110

Yes, grades also fit into the AI, but again, none of these schools currently have to justify grades and SAT's now to meet CAA or NEC requirements, so why would they limit football recruits to the top third of their overall applicant base, just to play in the PL?

But it can be done:

Richmond 1170 - 1350
William & Mary 1240 - 1450
Villanova 1200 - 1390

[DFW HOYA]

But it can be done:

Richmond 1170 - 1350
William & Mary 1240 - 1450
Villanova 1200 - 1390

None of these schools have to justify grades and SAT's in the ways mandated by the PL. None want to change.

[Go...gate]

Right, DFW. This is why I came to the conclusion that Marist and VMI were the only possible candidates on the radar.

[carney2]

I would think if merit aid OKed ,at whatever level, a number of them will go to kids already on squad in bits and pieces. A kid getting need might get balance of tuition via merit next year.

I'm betting that if it's, let's say, 48, it won't be 48 right now. There will be some sort of phase in of 12 pr year with timing constrAints that would preclude players from previous recruiting classes from sharing in the gold rush.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm betting that if it's, let's say, 48, it won't be 48 right now. There will be some sort of phase in of 12 pr year with timing constrAints that would preclude players from previous recruiting classes from sharing in the gold rush.

Is that enough for Fordham, or should the presidents ask Fordham up front if they will accept anything less than 60?

If it's 60 or else for Fordham, a lower number might make getting consensus from the other six a little easier if they know Fordham is not interested.

[Go...gate]

Is that enough for Fordham, or should the presidents ask Fordham up front if they will accept anything less than 60?

If it's 60 or else for Fordham, a lower number might make getting consensus from the other six a little easier if they know Fordham is not interested.

Don't look for that. The PL prexies do not want to acknowledge that Fordham drove this move, even though they deserve a lot of credit for doing so.

[DFW HOYA]

Don't look for that. The PL prexies do not want to acknowledge that Fordham drove this move, even though they deserve a lot of credit for doing so.

If the presidents are settling on a number to ensure league parity/unity, they'd better check to see if Fordham is out the door regardless, esp. if the number if it less than 60 and implementation is less than immediate.

[Go...gate]

I have to think it will have a range of 40 - 63.

[Ken_Z]

If the presidents are settling on a number to ensure league parity/unity, they'd better check to see if Fordham is out the door regardless, esp. if the number if it less than 60 and implementation is less than immediate.

agreed. and as often as they frustrate us, i am sure they are intelligent enough to vet this issue before they make their decision.

[bison137]

agreed. and as often as they frustrate us, i am sure they are intelligent enough to vet this issue before they make their decision.

Yes, one thing that's safe to say is that it's 100% certain that they have checked in with Fordham numerous times.

[carney2]

Is that enough for Fordham, or should the presidents ask Fordham up front if they will accept anything less than 60?

If it's 60 or else for Fordham, a lower number might make getting consensus from the other six a little easier if they know Fordham is not interested.

I ask myself why they would not simply apply the same rules for football that worked "so well" for them with basketball, which is to set a maximum number (60 sounds about right to me, enough to mollify the determined, but not quite the NCAA maximum, thereby making sme sort of an elitist statement) with a phase-in of some sort (15 per year), and no requirements for any school as to how they choose to implement. If Colgate decides to go to the max immediately, fine. If Holy Cross decides to do 40 total/10 per year, fine. If Georgetown decides to do nothing, fine. It may not, as DFW points out, do much for competition, but it would send everyone home from the December 13th meeting with a smile on his/her face.

[Go...gate]

I ask myself why they would not simply apply the same rules for football that worked "so well" for them with basketball, which is to set a maximum number (60 sounds about right to me, enough to mollify the determined, but not quite the NCAA maximum, thereby making sme sort of an elitist statement) with a phase-in of some sort (15 per year), and no requirements for any school as to how they choose to implement. If Colgate decides to go to the max immediately, fine. If Holy Cross decides to do 40 total/10 per year, fine. If Georgetown decides to do nothing, fine. It may not, as DFW points out, do much for competition, but it would send everyone home from the December 13th meeting with a smile on his/her face.

You are right. That would be consistent with not only PL BB, but PL sports in general. Not every school gives scholarships in the same sports, correct?

[DFW HOYA]

If Colgate decides to go to the max immediately, fine. If Holy Cross decides to do 40 total/10 per year, fine. If Georgetown decides to do nothing, fine. It may not, as DFW points out, do much for competition, but it would send everyone home from the December 13th meeting with a smile on his/her face.

For those who want to ensure the long term viability of the PL, this is the worst possible option. Either the PL needs to build a level playing field or call it a day and no longer sponsor football.

If it's Georgetown, the prospect of being permanently noncompetitive is magnified by the fact that they won't be able to even recruit alongside PL schools anymore. A free ride at every PL school trumps a $2,000 need based award and a $25,000 loan to attend GU.

If it's Bucknell, it falls 20-30 scholarships behind everyone else and they can't compete like that. There's a reason by the Bison haven't contended for the title since 1996 and this is one big reason.

If it's Lafayette, the implications of converting from a financial aid model to scholarships is more serious than one might think. There may be major cutbacks in men's sports around the corner just to float this premise.

A model of three schools at 60, three at 30-40, and one at zero will not survive.

[carney2]

For those who want to ensure the long term viability of the PL, this is the worst possible option. Either the PL needs to build a level playing field or call it a day and no longer sponsor football.

If it's Georgetown, the prospect of being permanently noncompetitive is magnified by the fact that they won't be able to even recruit alongside PL schools anymore. A free ride at every PL school trumps a $2,000 need based award and a $25,000 loan to attend GU.

If it's Bucknell, it falls 20-30 scholarships behind everyone else and they can't compete like that. There's a reason by the Bison haven't contended for the title since 1996 and this is one big reason.

If it's Lafayette, the implications of converting from a financial aid model to scholarships is more serious than one might think. There may be major cutbacks in men's sports around the corner just to float this premise.

A model of three schools at 60, three at 30-40, and one at zero will not survive.

All that you say is true. It will be, I fear, next year's problem.

[Go...gate]

For those who want to ensure the long term viability of the PL, this is the worst possible option. Either the PL needs to build a level playing field or call it a day and no longer sponsor football.

If it's Georgetown, the prospect of being permanently noncompetitive is magnified by the fact that they won't be able to even recruit alongside PL schools anymore. A free ride at every PL school trumps a $2,000 need based award and a $25,000 loan to attend GU.

If it's Bucknell, it falls 20-30 scholarships behind everyone else and they can't compete like that. There's a reason by the Bison haven't contended for the title since 1996 and this is one big reason.

If it's Lafayette, the implications of converting from a financial aid model to scholarships is more serious than one might think. There may be major cutbacks in men's sports around the corner just to float this premise.

A model of three schools at 60, three at 30-40, and one at zero will not survive.

I believe it is going to be put up or shut up for Georgetown in some form or fashion.

[CFBfan]

I believe it is going to be put up or shut up for Georgetown in some form or fashion.

why "put up or [B]shut up[B]? has GU been making noise about this??

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To me, the big thorn in the side of phasing in scholarships is league and school aspirations.

Why would the league allow scholarships? To keep Fordham in the fold? If they do, they need to come up with a solution for scholarships that is acceptable to them and everyone. Fordham almost certainly wants to get up to 63 scholarships so that they can be counters for FBS games.

Is the reason to allow PL schools to be counters to play more FBS teams? If that's the reason, then it makes no sense to limit the number of scholarships to any number below 56.5. Better to allow 63 right off the bat and let schools get to whatever level they choose. Trouble is, that may cause schools to either underfund or leave.

Is it to allow the PL to expand? If it's to try to convince a school like Richmond or William & Mary to join forces, they won't accept any number of scholarships below 63 because 1) that's where they are now and 2) they need to be at that number to be counters.

For "competitiveness"? Well, Hofstra and Northeastern have folded their programs, and UMass is now thinking about joining the MAC. It could help the league be more competitive with the CAA overall. And the "competitiveness" reason did take a hit with Lehigh beating UNI.

Most "reasons" for going scholarships seem to point to a need for PL teams to get to 63 scholarships so they can become counters - except for the reason of "competitiveness", which seems at best a moving target and at worst irrelevant with Lehigh's win (and, of course, if they continue to win, that argument loses some heft).

[Go...gate]

why "put up or [B]shut up[B]? has GU been making noise about this??

No, but if the PL goes to scholarships, how can GU compete when it has already shown a lagging commitment to FB without them?

[CFBfan]

No, but if the PL goes to scholarships, how can GU compete when it has already shown a lagging commitment to FB without them?

I don't think they can and don't think I or anyone else ever implied that they could, I was just wondering why "put up or shut up"? I interperted that as GU or someone from GU making noise about this.

[Go...gate]

They have not made any noise. Perhaps they are ready to do something. It is very hard to tell.

[CFBfan]

They have not made any noise. Perhaps they are ready to do something. It is very hard to tell.
yes, worse than reading tea leaves. Kelly's 5 year (too long!!) contract expired along with his staff and the silence out of DC is deafening on this very pressing issue so I'm not expecting anything on the scholarship issue from them

[carney2]

To me, the big thorn in the side of phasing in scholarships is league and school aspirations.

Why would the league allow scholarships? To keep Fordham in the fold? If they do, they need to come up with a solution for scholarships that is acceptable to them and everyone. Fordham almost certainly wants to get up to 63 scholarships so that they can be counters for FBS games.

Is the reason to allow PL schools to be counters to play more FBS teams? If that's the reason, then it makes no sense to limit the number of scholarships to any number below 56.5. Better to allow 63 right off the bat and let schools get to whatever level they choose. Trouble is, that may cause schools to either underfund or leave.

Is it to allow the PL to expand? If it's to try to convince a school like Richmond or William & Mary to join forces, they won't accept any number of scholarships below 63 because 1) that's where they are now and 2) they need to be at that number to be counters.

For "competitiveness"? Well, Hofstra and Northeastern have folded their programs, and UMass is now thinking about joining the MAC. It could help the league be more competitive with the CAA overall. And the "competitiveness" reason did take a hit with Lehigh beating UNI.

Most "reasons" for going scholarships seem to point to a need for PL teams to get to 63 scholarships so they can become counters - except for the reason of "competitiveness", which seems at best a moving target and at worst irrelevant with Lehigh's win (and, of course, if they continue to win, that argument loses some heft).

You conveniently overlook the primary reason for going scholarship which is expansion. Without it, the League continues on some sort of glorified life support.

Should UMass go to the MAC, that would leave UNH and Maine dangling by a thread in the isolated and empty CAA North. It is not all that hard to visualize a scholarship Patriot League swallowing their elitist pride and welcoming these two accomplished public institutions into the fold. What happens from there is anyone's guess.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You conveniently overlook the primary reason for going scholarship which is expansion. Without it, the League continues on some sort of glorified life support.

Should UMass go to the MAC, that would leave UNH and Maine dangling by a thread in the isolated and empty CAA North. It is not all that hard to visualize a scholarship Patriot League swallowing their elitist pride and welcoming these two accomplished public institutions into the fold. What happens from there is anyone's guess.

Patriot League:
Boston University
Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Georgetown
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Maine
New Hampshire

That's one great league of Northeast football right there - the final death throes of the former Yankee Conference, and it's new, Academic Index-based full scholarship replacement in the Patriot League.

Your season-ending rivalry games:
Lehigh-Lafayette
Holy Cross-Boston University
Maine-New Hampshire
Fordham-Georgetown
Bucknell-Colgate

It makes so much sense it's scary. My fear is it makes too much sense.

Would any of the five core (Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross) or two affiliate (Fordham, Georgetown) really say no to this?

[LUHawker]

Patriot League:
Boston University
Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Georgetown
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Maine
New Hampshire

That's one great league of Northeast football right there - the final death throes of the former Yankee Conference, and it's new, Academic Index-based full scholarship replacement in the Patriot League.

Your season-ending rivalry games:
Lehigh-Lafayette
Holy Cross-Boston University
Maine-New Hampshire
Fordham-Georgetown
Bucknell-Colgate

It makes so much sense it's scary. My fear is it makes too much sense.

Would any of the five core (Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross) or two affiliate (Fordham, Georgetown) really say no to this?

LFN - do you know something about Boston U. that the rest of us don't about their idled football program? I like the concept, but don't see it happening.

[bison137]

If it's Bucknell, it falls 20-30 scholarships behind everyone else and they can't compete like that. There's a reason by the Bison haven't contended for the title since 1996 and this is one big reason.




Your point is accurate but the chronology is not. Bucknell was very much in the PL race in 1997 and again in 2001. In 1997 they ended up with an overall record of 10-1, losing only on the last day of the season. Hard to be more in the race than that. In 2001, they were in the thick of the race in mid-November before a close loss to LU, in a game where BU had the statistical edge, knocked them out. Had Tom Gadd not tragically developed terminal brain cancer prior to the 2002 season, they would have contended a number of other times since then.

Also in 2004 under Landis, they ended up only one game out of first, but a loss to LU in late October pretty much put them out of contention for the autobid.

[bison137]

To me, the big thorn in the side of phasing in scholarships is league and school aspirations.

Why would the league allow scholarships? To keep Fordham in the fold? If they do, they need to come up with a solution for scholarships that is acceptable to them and everyone. Fordham almost certainly wants to get up to 63 scholarships so that they can be counters for FBS games.

Is the reason to allow PL schools to be counters to play more FBS teams? If that's the reason, then it makes no sense to limit the number of scholarships to any number below 56.5. Better to allow 63 right off the bat and let schools get to whatever level they choose. Trouble is, that may cause schools to either underfund or leave.

Is it to allow the PL to expand? If it's to try to convince a school like Richmond or William & Mary to join forces, they won't accept any number of scholarships below 63 because 1) that's where they are now and 2) they need to be at that number to be counters.

For "competitiveness"? Well, Hofstra and Northeastern have folded their programs, and UMass is now thinking about joining the MAC. It could help the league be more competitive with the CAA overall. And the "competitiveness" reason did take a hit with Lehigh beating UNI.

Most "reasons" for going scholarships seem to point to a need for PL teams to get to 63 scholarships so they can become counters - except for the reason of "competitiveness", which seems at best a moving target and at worst irrelevant with Lehigh's win (and, of course, if they continue to win, that argument loses some heft).


Schools can be counters without 56.5 or 63 scholarships. A school with 40 scholarships and 20 need-based grants would count for 60, for example.

[carney2]

Patriot League:
Boston University
Bucknell
Colgate
Fordham
Georgetown
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Maine
New Hampshire

That's one great league of Northeast football right there - the final death throes of the former Yankee Conference, and it's new, Academic Index-based full scholarship replacement in the Patriot League.

Your season-ending rivalry games:
Lehigh-Lafayette
Holy Cross-Boston University
Maine-New Hampshire
Fordham-Georgetown
Bucknell-Colgate

It makes so much sense it's scary. My fear is it makes too much sense.

Would any of the five core (Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross) or two affiliate (Fordham, Georgetown) really say no to this?

As already pointed out, Boston University, with no football program at the moment and no known plans to revive a program terminated in 1997,* is the weak link in your rose colored view of the future. Substitute VMI for BU however, and you might just have something a little less perfect, but a little more workable.

*A club football program was started at BU in 2010.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As already pointed out, Boston University, with no football program at the moment and no known plans to revive a program terminated in 1997,* is the weak link in your rose colored view of the future. Substitute VMI for BU however, and you might just have something a little less perfect, but a little more workable.

*A club football program was started at BU in 2010.

True, you could substitute VMI for BU and then have a Georgetown-VMI and Fordham-Holy Cross end of season.

Basketball would be Army, American, Navy, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh - add, potentially, UNH and UMass and VMI. BU can join too as a non-football playing member, making it 12 members. :)

[Go...gate]

True, you could substitute VMI for BU and then have a Georgetown-VMI and Fordham-Holy Cross end of season.

Basketball would be Army, American, Navy, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh - add, potentially, UNH and UMass and VMI. BU can join too as a non-football playing member, making it 12 members. :)

Basketball would essentially become a combination of what remains of the old ECAC-North Atlantic, ECAC-South, and East Coast Conference. We may be on to something here.

[Starship]

If the PL goes scholarship, William and Mary and Richmond fit the academic profile of the league and may be looking for homes if the CAA Southern base disappears to FBS.

[Pard4Life]

You can hear the Ivy League laughing at all of us right now. Aren't they in a great position? Eight teams who are not going anywhere. Sure different schools allocate different resources towards football but there are no risks to these programs.

I know we here sometimes shudder at our Ivy relationship but during times like these, I am somewhat glad the partnership exists. We have games against teams within short driving distance and reasonable fan interest.

This league is in more danger than any of us realize, I believe. Nobody else out there fits with our academic mold. VMI and Marist barely fit, and their emphasis on football is seemingly minimal. Are these schools willing to go the scholarship route and increase their budgets? If not, we are just adding two more Georgetowns.

Our problem is much more acute because of our associate members. Georgetown is more of a PFL team since the institution does not support the program and has financial constraints (and if I were a BOT member at Georgetown I would be looking to cancel the program). Fordham wants a reasonable upgrade with a vision of larger things. If we were insular like the Ivy League and had enough of permanent all-sport members, we would be having less problems. And, if we bring in more associate members, the stability and competition of this league will be more unstable and even less balanced.

If (when) we approve scholarships, we are going to potentially see a Patriot League that is akin to the Ivy League: three programs who are devoted to winning football, with a few more occassionally challenging for a title, and a few with no chance each year. With VMI and Marist, this will still be the case.

Forget Boston University, and Maine, or UNH. Unless Maine and UNH get desperate and have absolutely no other options, in addition to leadership that wants to keep football regardless, will they seek PL membership for football only. At that point, they might as well cancel their programs. After all, they have perfectly healthy conference affiliations in other sports. And that's if Center Valley wants to admit them (hey we had Towson so who knows). Trips to Durham and Orono from Lewisburg, Bethlehem, Easton, and D.C. are not easy, especially when they are already trying to contain costs. UNH and Maine will be in the NEC, the CAA's heir apparent.

Regardless what happens on December 13, there is no winning option for the PL.

[Doc QB]

Schools can be counters without 56.5 or 63 scholarships. A school with 40 scholarships and 20 need-based grants would count for 60, for example.

Why do a combination like that? If you have money for 40 unrestricted scholarships and another 20 need based grants (likely 20 full rides to distributed based on need), why not just get depth with 60 full ticket kids on the roster???? Dumb to split it up for a number of reasons.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Forget Boston University, and Maine, or UNH. Unless Maine and UNH get desperate and have absolutely no other options, in addition to leadership that wants to keep football regardless, will they seek PL membership for football only. At that point, they might as well cancel their programs. After all, they have perfectly healthy conference affiliations in other sports. And that's if Center Valley wants to admit them (hey we had Towson so who knows). Trips to Durham and Orono from Lewisburg, Bethlehem, Easton, and D.C. are not easy, especially when they are already trying to contain costs. UNH and Maine will be in the NEC, the CAA's heir apparent.

Regardless what happens on December 13, there is no winning option for the PL.

P4L, your post was extremely thoughtful.

But you illustrate one irritating thing that you - and many PL fans, and perhaps the presidents themselves - share. (Bear with me here.)

Whenever a team seems to be a possibility to be a member of the PL, folks seem hell-bent from the start to prove why they are not a great fit for the league. For VMI, I hear "they're too far south, they're too small, overall they don't help much in football". For Marist, I hear "they're not academically good enough, their endowment isn't big enough (?), they don't bring in a TV market". For BU, I hear "they're not going to bring back football (despite rumblings that folks are possibly interested)". For Maine and UNH - UNQUESTIONABLY desperate for a league - I hear "Well, they're state schools."

Dude. Opportunities present themselves maybe once in a generation, and you have to choose carefully - but you can't reject these schools because of ideological purity.

Folks seem to think that the formula for the AI should be a barrier for other schools to join the league. I think that the AI needs to be a living thing, that adapts to the new realities presented by FCS football.

One thing that is absolutely not in question is that UNH and Maine are desperate for answers for their programs. They might be mulling over three options: reduce scholarships to 40, keeping scholarships at 63 but implementing an Academic Index, or dropping their programs.

The Patriot League NEEDS to be a potential solution to their problem!

This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to expand the academic index to full-scholarship, state flagship programs. Why not go after it with gusto?

UNH's football program is exemplary at graduating kids, and Maine's is not that far behind.

Their overall academic profiles are not in line with the PL - however, when you exclude in-state kids, that academic profile changes and gets more in line with Fordham's. And it's not like Maine and UNH are football factories filled with in-state kids. The great majority of their kids come from other places... like the Lehigh Valley.

UNH is EXACTLY the type of program that the PL should be targeting: great football, a coach that graduates his kids, and a potential exemplar for Northeast football. Plus, it exports the AI model outside of the small, private college and university model that it has been.

If the PL doesn't at least offer themselves as an option to UNH and Maine, they're crazy.

[CFBfan]

"Their overall academic profiles are not in line with the PL - however, when you exclude in-state kids, that academic profile changes and gets more in line with Fordham's. And it's not like Maine and UNH are football factories filled with in-state kids. The great majority of their kids come from other places... like the Lehigh Valley." from LFN

This is like saying if you exclude the bottom 25% of students your university has a higher quality academic profile. Or to be silly, if she didn't have warts, zits, a big nose and was 80lbs overweight she would be cute

[DFW HOYA]

This league is in more danger than any of us realize, I believe. Nobody else out there fits with our academic mold. VMI and Marist barely fit, and their emphasis on football is seemingly minimal. Are these schools willing to go the scholarship route and increase their budgets? If not, we are just adding two more Georgetowns.

Our problem is much more acute because of our associate members. Georgetown is more of a PFL team since the institution does not support the program and has financial constraints (and if I were a BOT member at Georgetown I would be looking to cancel the program). Fordham wants a reasonable upgrade with a vision of larger things. If we were insular like the Ivy League and had enough of permanent all-sport members, we would be having less problems. And, if we bring in more associate members, the stability and competition of this league will be more unstable and even less balanced.

Thank you for your lack of support.

Georgetown is as much a PFL team as Lafayette is. The issue is not "support" but degree. Georgetown's football revenues essentially cover operating expenses but not much more, when a 2,500 seat field does not bring in added revenue. In accounting terms, the imputed cost of the program is financial aid, but that's an expense outside the athletic department, so it's a wash because students would get it whether they played football or not.

Per the EADA, Georgetown has about 58 men's scholarship equivalents...in ALL sports. That's 58 grants across nearly 400 athletes and 14 sports. The way it is able to maintain a Division I athletics program with 58 grants (and frankly, many D-II's have more than 58) is to rely on a foundation of need based aid for 11 of the 14 sports that are not close to be fully funded. Should all 11 sports be dropped thusly? Of course not. The PL knew this was where Georgetown stood in 2000 and barring anything to the contrary, that's where it stays.

Is it competitive? Not really. Does Georgetown want to do it anyway? Yes. Is it against the PL bylaws? No.

If the aid structure that Georgetown and the Ivy League employ is no longer suited for your Patriot League of the future, one dominated by $5-6 million budgets for football and siginifcant Title IX risk to every other men's sport at Lafayette and elsewhere in the PL, kindly instruct Dr. Weiss to move to expel Georgetown from the league. When he asks why, tell him it's on grounds that...well...it is following the financial aid philosophy that the league was founded upon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the aid structure that Georgetown and the Ivy League employ is no longer suited for your Patriot League of the future, one dominated by $5-6 million budgets for football and siginifcant Title IX risk to every other men's sport at Lafayette and elsewhere in the PL, kindly instruct Dr. Weiss to move to expel Georgetown from the league. When he asks why, tell him it's on grounds that...well...it is following the financial aid philosophy that the league was founded upon.

Georgetown's aid policy doesn't have a lot to do with the way the Ivy League is doing things now, unless you've implemented a policy to scholarship everyone making under $100,000 a year that can make it through admissions.

At one time, that was true, but today... not so much.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown's aid policy doesn't have a lot to do with the way the Ivy League is doing things now, unless you've implemented a policy to scholarship everyone making under $100,000 a year that can make it through admissions.

H-Y-P can do this, some others are backtracking a bit.

Georgetown's stated #1 priority will hope to address this, though:
http://1789scholarships.georgetown.edu/

[Go...gate]

You can hear the Ivy League laughing at all of us right now. Aren't they in a great position? Eight teams who are not going anywhere. Sure different schools allocate different resources towards football but there are no risks to these programs.

I know we here sometimes shudder at our Ivy relationship but during times like these, I am somewhat glad the partnership exists. We have games against teams within short driving distance and reasonable fan interest.

This league is in more danger than any of us realize, I believe. Nobody else out there fits with our academic mold. VMI and Marist barely fit, and their emphasis on football is seemingly minimal. Are these schools willing to go the scholarship route and increase their budgets? If not, we are just adding two more Georgetowns.

Our problem is much more acute because of our associate members. Georgetown is more of a PFL team since the institution does not support the program and has financial constraints (and if I were a BOT member at Georgetown I would be looking to cancel the program). Fordham wants a reasonable upgrade with a vision of larger things. If we were insular like the Ivy League and had enough of permanent all-sport members, we would be having less problems. And, if we bring in more associate members, the stability and competition of this league will be more unstable and even less balanced.

If (when) we approve scholarships, we are going to potentially see a Patriot League that is akin to the Ivy League: three programs who are devoted to winning football, with a few more occassionally challenging for a title, and a few with no chance each year. With VMI and Marist, this will still be the case.

Forget Boston University, and Maine, or UNH. Unless Maine and UNH get desperate and have absolutely no other options, in addition to leadership that wants to keep football regardless, will they seek PL membership for football only. At that point, they might as well cancel their programs. After all, they have perfectly healthy conference affiliations in other sports. And that's if Center Valley wants to admit them (hey we had Towson so who knows). Trips to Durham and Orono from Lewisburg, Bethlehem, Easton, and D.C. are not easy, especially when they are already trying to contain costs. UNH and Maine will be in the NEC, the CAA's heir apparent.

Regardless what happens on December 13, there is no winning option for the PL.

This is one of the best posts on this issue in a long time. Well done, Pard4Life.

[bison137]

Why do a combination like that? If you have money for 40 unrestricted scholarships and another 20 need based grants (likely 20 full rides to distributed based on need), why not just get depth with 60 full ticket kids on the roster???? Dumb to split it up for a number of reasons.


Actually there are several reasons it is not so dumb. One big one is that it does not cost the schools nearly as much money to comply with Title IX if part of the aid is need-based money that has been converted to grants. I agree, however, that if the only consideration is the quality of football, then having 60 true scholarships is better.

[Pard4Life]

P4L, your post was extremely thoughtful.

But you illustrate one irritating thing that you - and many PL fans, and perhaps the presidents themselves - share. (Bear with me here.)

Whenever a team seems to be a possibility to be a member of the PL, folks seem hell-bent from the start to prove why they are not a great fit for the league. For VMI, I hear "they're too far south, they're too small, overall they don't help much in football". For Marist, I hear "they're not academically good enough, their endowment isn't big enough (?), they don't bring in a TV market". For BU, I hear "they're not going to bring back football (despite rumblings that folks are possibly interested)". For Maine and UNH - UNQUESTIONABLY desperate for a league - I hear "Well, they're state schools."

Dude. Opportunities present themselves maybe once in a generation, and you have to choose carefully - but you can't reject these schools because of ideological purity.

Folks seem to think that the formula for the AI should be a barrier for other schools to join the league. I think that the AI needs to be a living thing, that adapts to the new realities presented by FCS football.

One thing that is absolutely not in question is that UNH and Maine are desperate for answers for their programs. They might be mulling over three options: reduce scholarships to 40, keeping scholarships at 63 but implementing an Academic Index, or dropping their programs.

The Patriot League NEEDS to be a potential solution to their problem!

This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to expand the academic index to full-scholarship, state flagship programs. Why not go after it with gusto?

UNH's football program is exemplary at graduating kids, and Maine's is not that far behind.

Their overall academic profiles are not in line with the PL - however, when you exclude in-state kids, that academic profile changes and gets more in line with Fordham's. And it's not like Maine and UNH are football factories filled with in-state kids. The great majority of their kids come from other places... like the Lehigh Valley.

UNH is EXACTLY the type of program that the PL should be targeting: great football, a coach that graduates his kids, and a potential exemplar for Northeast football. Plus, it exports the AI model outside of the small, private college and university model that it has been.

If the PL doesn't at least offer themselves as an option to UNH and Maine, they're crazy.

I completely agree with you... this is an opportunity and we should seize it by adding UNH and Maine. They have great programs and are in our recruiting footprint.

BUT, my comments are being made partially from the perspective of the PL Presidents and a bit of realpolitik. You are selling an idea that has great points, but I'm not sure the leadership will agree. What does UNH and Maine add to the Patriot League's image? It's core mission and philosophy?

And, what do UNH and Maine have to gain by joining the PL?

The evidence says that UNH and Maine are committed to keeping football (maybe my earlier comment on them cancelling their programs was a bit strong)... they play FBS teams each year for the payout, which help their programs. They will likely want to keep that revenue resource. By playing in a weaker league, a PL that has limited scholarships or a tiered competitve league like the Ivies, can they bring in the quality of recruits? Will their prestige take a hit? UNH and Maine would likely join the PL under certain arrangement too... allowed to keep their 63 scholarships and thus increase the chance that they will get to the postseason each year, while other teams like Lafayette and Holy Cross play under limited scholarships or adhere to some hybrid scholarship/ecquivalency structure.

Would you vote for this arrangement as a PL AD or President with a limited athletic department budget? Maybe if it meant saving the PL.

[carney2]

Why do a combination like that? If you have money for 40 unrestricted scholarships and another 20 need based grants (likely 20 full rides to distributed based on need), why not just get depth with 60 full ticket kids on the roster???? Dumb to split it up for a number of reasons.

Although I recognize your signature, you give every appearance of being new to this discussion, which, by the way, goes way back beyond this thread. I refuse to go into this again just to enlighten one guy, but there are a slew of reasons why the combination approach works for some schools.

[headdressguy]

P4L-

Does the Presidents' calculus change at all if you exchange W&M and UR for UNH and Maine? Does it change if it's all four? Obviously, it would be contingent on a PL that allows 63 scholarships from the WM/UR end - I'm just thinking out loud here. With the UMass and Nova rumors, the confirmed URI-to-the-NEC move, and the ambitions of the JMU/GSU/ODUs of the world, the CAA could be a bit of an awkward fit for the smaller schools moving forward.

I'm not saying the CAA is dead, and I haven't really fleshed out exactly what I think W&M's best move is. I definitely feel the ground shifting under our feet, though, and I'm just trying to game out the possibilities.

[Pard4Life]

Thank you for your lack of support.

Georgetown is as much a PFL team as Lafayette is. The issue is not "support" but degree. Georgetown's football revenues essentially cover operating expenses but not much more, when a 2,500 seat field does not bring in added revenue. In accounting terms, the imputed cost of the program is financial aid, but that's an expense outside the athletic department, so it's a wash because students would get it whether they played football or not.

Per the EADA, Georgetown has about 58 men's scholarship equivalents...in ALL sports. That's 58 grants across nearly 400 athletes and 14 sports. The way it is able to maintain a Division I athletics program with 58 grants (and frankly, many D-II's have more than 58) is to rely on a foundation of need based aid for 11 of the 14 sports that are not close to be fully funded. Should all 11 sports be dropped thusly? Of course not. The PL knew this was where Georgetown stood in 2000 and barring anything to the contrary, that's where it stays.

Is it competitive? Not really. Does Georgetown want to do it anyway? Yes. Is it against the PL bylaws? No.

If the aid structure that Georgetown and the Ivy League employ is no longer suited for your Patriot League of the future, one dominated by $5-6 million budgets for football and siginifcant Title IX risk to every other men's sport at Lafayette and elsewhere in the PL, kindly instruct Dr. Weiss to move to expel Georgetown from the league. When he asks why, tell him it's on grounds that...well...it is following the financial aid philosophy that the league was founded upon.

Right, and the Patriot League as it exists is about to die, or be mutated beyond its origional foundation. Georgetown football is going to become Lafayette basketball of the middle of the decade. Your pool of recruits is much smaller. And, if Georgetown adheres to the status quo by not increasing "grants," how are they going to compete against the scholarship programs?

Georgetown and Fordham are seemingly at the extreme ends of the spectrum. The core Patriot members, with Bucknell probably lagging at the moment, are more or less in the same ballpark with regard to spending on equivalencies. I know it's not fact but I get the feeling Bucknell is going to improve its product, Colgate and Lehigh definetely, Lafayette and Holy Cross yes, but to a lesser extent, and where does that leave Georgetown if they do not allocate more equivalency money or grants for football and athletics?

[Pard4Life]

P4L-

Does the Presidents' calculus change at all if you exchange W&M and UR for UNH and Maine? Does it change if it's all four? Obviously, it would be contingent on a PL that allows 63 scholarships from the WM/UR end - I'm just thinking out loud here. With the UMass and Nova rumors, the confirmed URI-to-the-NEC move, and the ambitions of the JMU/GSU/ODUs of the world, the CAA could be a bit of an awkward fit for the smaller schools moving forward.

I'm not saying the CAA is dead, and I haven't really fleshed out exactly what I think W&M's best move is. I definitely feel the ground shifting under our feet, though, and I'm just trying to game out the possibilities.

I think it would... William and Mary was a charter PL member after all, but that lasted a month. Richmond has a great profile too. Just shooting from the hip here but W&M and UR seem like Lehigh-type schools with regard to size and breadth of programs. All four? Not so sure... at that point, it would look purely like a football move. Sure adding W&M and UR would be as well, but they fit the PL mold. It might be a logistical challenge i.e. Worcester to Williamsburg, but it can work. Remember, image and philosophy are everything to these Presidents.

It would be great to add them, but they would probably fit best in some southern-based conference.

[Doc QB]

Although I recognize your signature, you give every appearance of being new to this discussion, which, by the way, goes way back beyond this thread. I refuse to go into this again just to enlighten one guy, but there are a slew of reasons why the combination approach works for some schools.

Not new to the discussion, just a rare poster. My question is, how many people on this board ACTUALLY played PL football and went through the financial aid process? How many had scholarship offers from now-CAA schools and the aid packages from Ivies and the grants from PL schools? I experienced all of this. Not all the schools are the same.

I understand stretching need based aid for 20 some full equivalencies to a more than 20 athletes until the bank is empty gets more athletes in programs and gives more kids an opportunity (on top of 40 full scholarships as proposed above). But that is not the thrust of the scholarship argument in my mind, it is one of national competitiveness (or with 'Nova and Delaware down the road). To get that, don't be the NEC with less than 63, give 'em all the full ticket. Great academic schools, great student-athletes who get full scholarships....that is unique league, one that would make waves.

In addition, DFW Hoya also mention the 58 total grants spread among 400 GU athletes. GU was not a member when I was recruited, but LU and HC were in 1990, and their aid for football players was NOT from the general aid pool. It was from the athletic department. The forms we signed at LU were different than those of the other students. And if you quit, you lost that package (ALL GRANT), you went into the general popultion pool, and got a crappier package, now with sweet loans and less grant cash. The money is totally different than the school wide aid.

If schools are paying money from the athletic department currently, title 9 aside, schollies could move easily like Fordham. If schools are giving athletes different money from the general population pool, I have no idea how they are going to move forward to full athletic scholarships like our CAA brethren.

So, who played or had children go through this process personally??? I am very curious.

[Kramden]

[QUOTE=Doc QB;1593091]Not new to the discussion, just a rare poster. My question is, how many people on this board ACTUALLY played PL football and went through the financial aid process? How many had scholarship offers from now-CAA schools and the aid packages from Ivies and the grants from PL schools? I experienced all of this. Not all the schools are the same.

I understand stretching need based aid for 20 some full equivalencies to a more than 20 athletes until the bank is empty gets more athletes in programs and gives more kids an opportunity (on top of 40 full scholarships as proposed above). But that is not the thrust of the scholarship argument in my mind, it is one of national competitiveness (or with 'Nova and Delaware down the road). To get that, don't be the NEC with less than 63, give 'em all the full ticket. Great academic schools, great student-athletes who get full scholarships....that is unique league, one that would make waves.

In addition, DFW Hoya also mention the 58 total grants spread among 400 GU athletes. GU was not a member when I was recruited, but LU and HC were in 1990, and their aid for football players was NOT from the general aid pool. It was from the athletic department. The forms we signed at LU were different than those of the other students. And if you quit, you lost that package (ALL GRANT), you went into the general popultion pool, and got a crappier package, now with sweet loans and less grant cash. The money is totally different than the school wide aid.

If schools are paying money from the athletic department currently, title 9 aside, schollies could move easily like Fordham. If schools are giving athletes different money from the general population pool, I have no idea how they are going to move forward to full athletic scholarships like our CAA brethren.

So, who played or had children go through this process personally??? I am very curious.[


I did. For Colgate. And seemed to have a similar experience as you in terms of options. If done right, we actually could be a powerful conference that would be coveted by some of the stronger academic CAA schools. I just doubt it, unless the presidents of the other PL Schools are different than Colgate; where atheletics is important but doesn't seem to be valued to the degree it could be; without any implications to academics.

[ngineer]

I played two years, but 'way back' in 1970 and did not qualify for aid. So I can't speak to my experience on financial aid. I was supposed to play just for the fun of it.

[jimbo65]

I played two years, but 'way back' in 1970 and did not qualify for aid. So I can't speak to my experience on financial aid. I was supposed to play just for the fun of it.
Interesting from a former player's perspective. When you played, were there others on the team with schollies or "need based" aid & if so, did that bother you that you were getting bounced around, while paying for it, while others had a free or partial ride.

Kind of the antithesis of a friend of mine who played Division 1 bball(not at Fordham) who complained to me years later, that he was angered & dismayed to learn a teammate was receiving more $s than he. He complained that "this was not right" & received a "raise".

[RichH2]

I played back in the early 60s, when lehigh "deemphasized " football for a year or 2 and it took 10 yrs to recover. My experience not too relevant to today. I do recall that in the late 90' early 2000s , aid was similar to that described by Doc. I believe today the aid $$ is still a separate pool, altho based on same need parameters as the rest of students. Less Title IX issues, I assume.

[carney2]

Do we have any updates on the headcount? Here's where it stood the last time we peeked:

FORDHAM - Yes, and it seems fairly obvious.

COLGATE, LEHIGH - Yes, but there is no official pronouncement supporting this.

BUCKNELL - Probably yes, but this is based on the usually reliable sources.

HOLY CROSS - Probably no, but this is conjecture.

GEORGETOWN, LAFAYETTE - No, but no official pronouncement so far.

AMERICAN, ARMY, NAVY - Will they vote? Won't they vote? It seems apparent however, that a yes is beneficial to all because without football scholarships the future of the League is in greater doubt than with them.

Most interested observers have been considering this a done deal for about two months now. Is it?

[ngineer]

It is my recall that Lehigh, months ago, through AD Sterrett stated that Lehigh was in favor of scholarships and that President Gast supported the idea.

[carney2]

It is my recall that Lehigh, months ago, through AD Sterrett stated that Lehigh was in favor of scholarships and that President Gast supported the idea.

OFFICIAL pronouncement.

[bostonspider]

How about a nice expanded scholarship Patriot League for football

North
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham
Lafayette
Lehigh
Bucknell

South
William & Mary
Richmond
Furman
Wofford
Elon
Samford

Nice collection of good football schools and academic "powerhouses". I think the SoCon might end up having some of the same issues as the CAA, with GSU/ASU looking to work with ODU, JMU, UD, GStU on the move up to FBS.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How about a nice expanded scholarship Patriot League for football

North
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham
Lafayette
Lehigh
Bucknell

South
William & Mary
Richmond
Furman
Wofford
Elon
Samford

Nice collection of good football schools and academic "powerhouses". I think the SoCon might end up having some of the same issues as the CAA, with GSU/ASU looking to work with ODU, JMU, UD, GStU on the move up to FBS.

Replace Samford with VMI or Davidson, and I think you may have something here. Actually, you seem to have intentionally left off Georgetown (again?), so you could have a 7-team "North" division with Georgetown and a 7-team "South" with Richmond, W&M, Furman, Wofford, Elon, VMI and Davidson.

[Lehigh74]

It is my recall that Lehigh, months ago, through AD Sterrett stated that Lehigh was in favor of scholarships and that President Gast supported the idea.

Here is the link to the release:

http://www.lehighsports.com/sports/football/7929.aspx

[bostonspider]

Georgetown gets left off as, from what I have seen, they do not have the required commitment to field a sucessful scholarship FCS team. Originally I thought of Davidson, but did not see them adding scholarships. VMI could be an option, but Samford is currently in the SoCon with Furman, Wofford and Elon and fits the profile better than I expected with 2800 undergrads, a nice 7000 seat on campus stadium, and average SAT score of 1190 for the freshman class of 2010

http://www.netitor.com/photos/schools/samf/galleries/Football_Field/footballfield-lg.jpg

[carney2]

Here is the link to the release:

http://www.lehighsports.com/sports/football/7929.aspx

Hardly a definitive "Lehigh will vote 'Yes' on football scholarships" statement.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Folks keep forgetting that the Patriot already is an eight-team conference sponsoring 23 sports. Army and Navy play as FBS independents and American doesn't play football. I would imagine that the Patriot desires only full-sport members with the exception of football, where it needs football associates to replace just those three. It would be nice to have a large, north-and-south football presence, but I just wonder how the league would feel about sponsoring such a distinct, football-only conference that has little commonality with its other sports. I doubt any of the southern-based the institutions on that proposed list would want to be all-sport members. Richmond and W&M were sought-after all-sport members at one time, but that day has long passed and those schools seem firmly entrenched in their present conference affiliations.

[DFW HOYA]

Samford is currently in the SoCon with Furman, Wofford and Elon and fits the profile better than I expected with 2800 undergrads, a nice 7000 seat on campus stadium, and average SAT score of 1190 for the freshman class of 2010[/IMG]

Some of these permutations are becoming as strange as the thread over at the Fordham board arguing that the Rams should follow UMass to the MAC. (Never mind that Fordham is averaging 3,372 a game.)

In the end, the Patriot League has to act in the best interests of the league, not of individual teams. If the numbers are a little too many for Georgetown and not enough for Fordham, but the right fit for the league itself, this is the course of action the presidents figure to take.

My 100% uneducated guess on how this could play out:

1. PL presidents announce approving scholarships but do not announce the specific vote count (to provide cover for presidents at LC and HC).

2. Teams are allowed to offer some combination of 10 athletic scholarships a year (under the AI) each year, effective with the 2012-13 freshman class, but teams with high equivalency counts can already begin to schedule I-A games if they choose.

3. The presidents understand that Fordham will not renew its associate membership following the 2012 season and may seek an out after 2011 at the spring meeting.

4. Georgetown tells the presidents that they will begin a self-study on whether to commit to scholarships or pursue another league sometime after 2014. The PL sets up a "blue ribbon" presidential committee to secure an all-sports expansion target by 2014, either to keep the six team minimum or welcome a seventh.

5. The presidents note that it is "too soon" to make offers to the likes of UNH or Maine, and wish them well in their future endeavors.

6. An obligatory quote about scholarships providing "additional opportunities" is provided, and that scholarships are a "bold" and "innovative" step for the PL.

7. The announcement is covered in the Lehigh Valley press, AGS, and very little elsewhere.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think DFW HOYA has it just about right. For some reason I think it will be it will be 12 scholarships per year as opposed to 10 (that number has been tossed around on the Lafayette board) and schools will be able to use need-based equivalencies to move up to FBS-qualifying levels if they choose, using the infamous Patriot "basketball approach."

I'm going to wager (without knowing anything, of course) that the announcement will include a "commitment to scholar-athletes," a reference to the "core principles of the league" and a reaffirmation of the academic index. It might or might not include a mention of Ivy scheduling, since many of those games already are committed well into the future.

It's possible that the announcement also will include "talks directed at" the PL service academies "possibly playing a qualifying PL game each year," though schedules already are fixed in the near term.

Georgetown will stay but "regretfully," Fordham will seek "other opportunities consistent with its athletic mission" while "ongoing discussions concerning expansion" will continue. On the other hand, should Fordham agree to a 48-scholarship-plus-need-based-equivalencies formula, the announcement will reflect the league's "delight" that Fordham is "on board with this bold new initiative."

Coverage will make the front pages of the Lehigh Valley newspapers. It might appear somewhere in the sports pages of the Philadelphia Inquirer and The New York Times. Probably the Worcester Telegram as well. Wheter there is a passing reference to the notion on Hoya Saxa is anyone's guess, of course, but LFN will have a field day. There could be a grumble or three on the Ivy board but mostly no one there will care. ESPN will post about it in a blog somewhere that nobody reads, just so it can't be accused of failing to cover the issue.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Coverage will make the front pages of the Lehigh Valley newspapers. It might appear somewhere in the sports pages of the Philadelphia Inquirer and The New York Times. Probably the Worcester Telegram as well. Wheter there is a passing reference to the notion on Hoya Saxa is anyone's guess, of course, but LFN will have a field day.

This largely depends on whether Lehigh is still on their run for the national championship or not. I could still be running with twenty-year-old Tubby Raymond quotes, you know.

[Bogus Megapardus]

This largely depends on whether Lehigh is still on their run for the national championship or not. I could still be running with twenty-year-old Tubby Raymond quotes, you know.

That's OK - I understand from carney2 on the Lafayette board that there will be Kabuki Dance following the ceremony (open bar). I'll make sure you're invited.

[carney2]

It has been reported on the Lafayette board by a reliable source that the votes have been counted, and scholarships are a done deal. This has been "known" for about a month, which would coincide with the rumors that many of the League coaching staffs had been green lighted to recruit with scholarships. Two additional interesting pieces of information:

1. As part of the "deal," Army and Navy have agreed to schedule one Patriot League opponent per year. I assume this means apiece, but it isn't stated. No matter, this would go a long way towards supplying "money games' for League members.

2. Lafayette is reported as all in, with efforts currently underway to rearrange the deck chairs to get to the maximum number, whatever that may be.

Still in the rumor stage, but I trust the source.

[Go...gate]

I think DFW HOYA has it just about right. For some reason I think it will be it will be 12 scholarships per year as opposed to 10 (that number has been tossed around on the Lafayette board) and schools will be able to use need-based equivalencies to move up to FBS-qualifying levels if they choose, using the infamous Patriot "basketball approach."

I'm going to wager (without knowing anything, of course) that the announcement will include a "commitment to scholar-athletes," a reference to the "core principles of the league" and a reaffirmation of the academic index. It might or might not include a mention of Ivy scheduling, since many of those games already are committed well into the future.

It's possible that the announcement also will include "talks directed at" the PL service academies "possibly playing a qualifying PL game each year," though schedules already are fixed in the near term.

Georgetown will stay but "regretfully," Fordham will seek "other opportunities consistent with its athletic mission" while "ongoing discussions concerning expansion" will continue. On the other hand, should Fordham agree to a 48-scholarship-plus-need-based-equivalencies formula, the announcement will reflect the league's "delight" that Fordham is "on board with this bold new initiative."

Coverage will make the front pages of the Lehigh Valley newspapers. It might appear somewhere in the sports pages of the Philadelphia Inquirer and The New York Times. Probably the Worcester Telegram as well. Wheter there is a passing reference to the notion on Hoya Saxa is anyone's guess, of course, but LFN will have a field day. There could be a grumble or three on the Ivy board but mostly no one there will care. ESPN will post about it in a blog somewhere that nobody reads, just so it can't be accused of failing to cover the issue.

Newark (NJ) Star-Ledger might also say something about it.

[Go...gate]

That's OK - I understand from carney2 on the Lafayette board that there will be Kabuki Dance following the ceremony (open bar). I'll make sure you're invited.

Will this just be a Lehigh-Lafayette Kabuki Dance?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Will this just be a Lehigh-Lafayette Kabuki Dance?

It's a Patriot Kabuki Dance, but with cute little Lafayette College hand puppets, courtesy of its recalcitrant faculty. Everyone can come, even Fordham.


Newark (NJ) Star-Ledger might also say something about it.

Only if it means a reincarnation of the Middle Three (which it might). You guys get Syracuse, Holy Cross gets Boston College, we get Rutgers - everyone's happy, just like the old days.

By the way, where's that cannon?

[Go...gate]

It's a Patriot Kabuki Dance, but with cute little Lafayette College hand puppets, courtesy of its recalcitrant faculty. Everyone can come, even Fordham.



Only if it means a reincarnation of the Middle Three (which it might). You guys get Syracuse, Holy Cross gets Boston College, we get Rutgers - everyone's happy, just like the old days.

By the way, where's that cannon?

I don't know, but there is one behind Nassau Hall that is just hanging around, minding its own business. It's basketball season, they would never notice.....

[headdressguy]

Newark (NJ) Star-Ledger might also say something about it.

Maybe Izenberg can cook up a little retrospective.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Maybe Izenberg can cook up a little retrospective.

He's such a Rutgers guy, though - and he came of age in an era when Lafayette and Lehigh could throttle Rutgers in their yearly meetings.

[heath]

It has been reported on the Lafayette board by a reliable source that the votes have been counted, and scholarships are a done deal. This has been "known" for about a month, which would coincide with the rumors that many of the League coaching staffs had been green lighted to recruit with scholarships. Two additional interesting pieces of information:

1. As part of the "deal," Army and Navy have agreed to schedule one Patriot League opponent per year. I assume this means apiece, but it isn't stated. No matter, this would go a long way towards supplying "money games' for League members.

2. Lafayette is reported as all in, with efforts currently underway to rearrange the deck chairs to get to the maximum number, whatever that may be.

Still in the rumor stage, but I trust the source.

Each school would be allowed how many scollies in year 1? Is it 60 divided by 4?Or did the PL decide on a lower number?I noticed in years past,many schools recruit 25-30 players with need based restrictions,how will that affect the classes this year?

[headdressguy]

He's such a Rutgers guy, though - and he came of age in an era when Lafayette and Lehigh could throttle Rutgers in their yearly meetings.

That's not telling me much - that could mean anything from the late 1800s until about 2002.

[carney2]

Each school would be allowed how many scollies in year 1? Is it 60 divided by 4?Or did the PL decide on a lower number?I noticed in years past,many schools recruit 25-30 players with need based restrictions,how will that affect the classes this year?

You know what I know.

[carney2]

Will this just be a Lehigh-Lafayette Kabuki Dance?

Of course. Why would you even bother to ask.

[Go...gate]

How about a nice expanded scholarship Patriot League for football

North
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham
Lafayette
Lehigh
Bucknell

South
William & Mary
Richmond
Furman
Wofford
Elon
Samford

Nice collection of good football schools and academic "powerhouses". I think the SoCon might end up having some of the same issues as the CAA, with GSU/ASU looking to work with ODU, JMU, UD, GStU on the move up to FBS.

That would be one fine conference.

[Go...gate]

H-Y-P can do this, some others are backtracking a bit.

Georgetown's stated #1 priority will hope to address this, though:
http://1789scholarships.georgetown.edu/

How about setting aside some of these for the football team?

[LUHawker]

Hardly a definitive "Lehigh will vote 'Yes' on football scholarships" statement.

A release that comes out the same day as the Fordham knews that is supportive of football schollies is tantamount to an official vote of support, IMO, and I think that was Lehigh's intent.

[carney2]

A release that comes out the same day as the Fordham knews that is supportive of football schollies is tantamount to an official vote of support, IMO, and I think that was Lehigh's intent.

"I think." "Could be..." "Same day as..." "Tantamount to..."

Still not an OFFICIAL pronouncement, which, by the way, has not come from any school, save Fordham. What I'm saying is that there has been some tap dancing and some self serving interpretation by vocal folks on this board, but there has been no solid "leak" of intentions by anyone. In fact, Bucknell appears to be the only Patriot League institution with even a hint of transparency, and we don't really know where they're headed on this.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well, it's the week folks have been waiting for - the week that the Patriot League presidents will be voting on the scholarship issue.

I worked it into a "Sunday Word": Devlin:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/12/sundays-word-devlin.html

And Keith Groller of the Morning Call also had a piece on it:

http://articles.mcall.com/2010-12-04/sports/mc-lehigh-football-column-1204-20101204_1_mountain-hawks-andy-coen-scholarship-issue

I say scholarships are just the right thing to do. Hope the PL presidents are listening.

[DFW HOYA]

If the presidents are listening, the press isn't. For example, this subject has not merited even one paragraph in any of the three Washington DC dailies this season. Given that two of the three don't cover Georgetown at all, it's probably not surprising, but this issue is getting little coverage beyond the Morning Call and Express-Times.

[ngineer]

Maybe we should have a big 'countdown' board on here counting the hours until the Grand Poohbahs of the PL meet on South Mountain. Will there be white smoke eminating from the chimney at the Iacocca Center???

[Bogus Megapardus]

If the presidents are listening, the press isn't. For example, this subject has not merited even one paragraph in any of the three Washington DC dailies this season. Given that two of the three don't cover Georgetown at all, it's probably not surprising, but this issue is getting little coverage beyond the Morning Call and Express-Times.

Still not so sure how to read this. Is it an indictment of sensibilities of those in the Lehigh Valley for caring about PL football, or an affirmation that Washingtonians believe they have many more important things with which to concern themselves?

[DFW HOYA]

Still not so sure how to read this. Is it an indictment of sensibilities of those in the Lehigh Valley for caring about PL football, or an affirmation that Washingtonians believe they have many more important things with which to concern themselves?

The latter, though if this was the Ivy League making such a vote, the august and urbane NY Times would be awash in journalistic hand-wringing over the whole matter. I would have at least thought this would get some sort of ESPN.com coverage, if that.

And for anyone left wondering if this vote has received the attention at Georgetown it apparently has at other PL schools (i.e., trustee meetings, alumni council resolutions, web site statements, etc,), the answer is simple: none of the above.

[RichH2]

Given that Hoyas spend about 1/3 to 1/4 of what all others spend on football, it would not appear to be a major issue for GU administration ufortunately.

I sincerely hope the PL comes up with a final resolution of this issue , for merit aid , but even if not ,it is past time to end this game of hide and seek.

[blukeys]

Well, it's the week folks have been waiting for - the week that the Patriot League presidents will be voting on the scholarship issue.

I worked it into a "Sunday Word": Devlin:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/12/sundays-word-devlin.html

And Keith Groller of the Morning Call also had a piece on it:

http://articles.mcall.com/2010-12-04/sports/mc-lehigh-football-column-1204-20101204_1_mountain-hawks-andy-coen-scholarship-issue

I say scholarships are just the right thing to do. Hope the PL presidents are listening.

Chuck I liked both of your posts and you are realistic about the scollie situation. Unmentioned is the impact of the improvement of the NEC in all of this. I think a lot of PL folks were Ok if they lost to Delaware or Nova. But when Albany and St. Francis started to get tough, there was a wake up call.

Good articles on Devlin and the scollies. xthumbsupx I agree with you that getting scollies will not make PL teams world beaters instantly. I remember when Delaware went from a needs based grant system to scollies in the 80's (It was actually a condition for entry into the Yankee Conference) Some UD fans were convinced that we would never lose another game. It didn't happen that way. There will be an improvement. If everyone gets the same number that PL conference will actually become more competitive within the conference. Look for the Bucknells to become tougher (I would add Georgetown but I don't know how many scollies they can give.)

By the way on Devlin's 2 picks one bounced off of the helmet of a Richmond Lineman and the other was the result of a tackeled UD receiver on the ground when he delivered the ball.

[blukeys]

Not new to the discussion, just a rare poster. My question is, how many people on this board ACTUALLY played PL football and went through the financial aid process? How many had scholarship offers from now-CAA schools and the aid packages from Ivies and the grants from PL schools? I experienced all of this. Not all the schools are the same.

I understand stretching need based aid for 20 some full equivalencies to a more than 20 athletes until the bank is empty gets more athletes in programs and gives more kids an opportunity (on top of 40 full scholarships as proposed above). But that is not the thrust of the scholarship argument in my mind, it is one of national competitiveness (or with 'Nova and Delaware down the road). To get that, don't be the NEC with less than 63, give 'em all the full ticket. Great academic schools, great student-athletes who get full scholarships....that is unique league, one that would make waves.

In addition, DFW Hoya also mention the 58 total grants spread among 400 GU athletes. GU was not a member when I was recruited, but LU and HC were in 1990, and their aid for football players was NOT from the general aid pool. It was from the athletic department. The forms we signed at LU were different than those of the other students. And if you quit, you lost that package (ALL GRANT), you went into the general popultion pool, and got a crappier package, now with sweet loans and less grant cash. The money is totally different than the school wide aid.

If schools are paying money from the athletic department currently, title 9 aside, schollies could move easily like Fordham. If schools are giving athletes different money from the general population pool, I have no idea how they are going to move forward to full athletic scholarships like our CAA brethren.

So, who played or had children go through this process personally??? I am very curious.

Doc I did not play and I was never recruited for sports. While I was at UD I was befriended by 2 UD Offensive linemen from the 70's era. I played basketball with them in the off season. I mentioned to these guys that I was having money problems (I was married with a kid at college) and they sent me to the financial aid lady that helped the athletes.

You are correct every school is different. My 2 basketball playing football buddies knew 10 times more about the financial aid system than any student I knew or most counselors. The financial aid lady found for me all types of programs that were a wonder for me. Eventually I was hired on as a full time employee of UD and had some courses paid as part of my benefits package. But for my friends on the football team I would have graduated with a debt. Instead I graduated debt free although I had a class/work schedule that left no free time.

At UD pre scollie, the smartest people in the room were associated with football and athletics.

[Franks Tanks]

Not new to the discussion, just a rare poster. My question is, how many people on this board ACTUALLY played PL football and went through the financial aid process? How many had scholarship offers from now-CAA schools and the aid packages from Ivies and the grants from PL schools? I experienced all of this. Not all the schools are the same.

I understand stretching need based aid for 20 some full equivalencies to a more than 20 athletes until the bank is empty gets more athletes in programs and gives more kids an opportunity (on top of 40 full scholarships as proposed above). But that is not the thrust of the scholarship argument in my mind, it is one of national competitiveness (or with 'Nova and Delaware down the road). To get that, don't be the NEC with less than 63, give 'em all the full ticket. Great academic schools, great student-athletes who get full scholarships....that is unique league, one that would make waves.

In addition, DFW Hoya also mention the 58 total grants spread among 400 GU athletes. GU was not a member when I was recruited, but LU and HC were in 1990, and their aid for football players was NOT from the general aid pool. It was from the athletic department. The forms we signed at LU were different than those of the other students. And if you quit, you lost that package (ALL GRANT), you went into the general popultion pool, and got a crappier package, now with sweet loans and less grant cash. The money is totally different than the school wide aid.

If schools are paying money from the athletic department currently, title 9 aside, schollies could move easily like Fordham. If schools are giving athletes different money from the general population pool, I have no idea how they are going to move forward to full athletic scholarships like our CAA brethren.

So, who played or had children go through this process personally??? I am very curious.


I went through the process as well. Lafayette is like Lehigh in the sense that it is a "special" aid allocated for football. If a player quits the amount of aid available to them will dimish quite sharply.

I got recruited by several PL schools and the aid offer was about the same, but Lafayette gave the most (I guess they wanted me the most). I was recruited by the Ivies, but only Columbia was showing interest at the end as my grades were very borderline for the Ivy League. Columbia couldn't seem to make up their mind and I couldn't wait any longer so I had to remove them from consideration without getting their offical aid offer. I recieved a scholarship from VMI, who was in the midst of a decade of one win seasons on the SoCon, and I didn't want to go there. I recieved an offer of a 1/2 scholarship from a CAA school with the promise that it could move to a full. I also got recruited by Georgetown when they were in the MAAC, but I couldn't get past admissions. I got recruited by several now defunct MAAC schools who offered very poor aid.

Basically I choose a PL school who gave me a tremendous financial aid package over a 1/2 scholly from a CAA school and a full scholly from an FCS cellar dwellar. If the 1/2 scholly from the CAA school would have been full I would have went there. If Columbia pulled through I would have probably went there over even the CAA full scholly. My experience is not atypical. Many PL recruits are hoping for Ivy offers or a scholly from a top program. If those things don't quite work out its hello PL. PL full scholarships can change all this is a hurry however. I dont know if DOC or anyone else cares about all this, but I figured I would share a typical PL recruiting scenario under the current system.

[DFW HOYA]

Thanks for the first-hand account.

(Yes, and even in the MAAC days, there were no guarantees that a football prospect would get admitted, either. Makes it that much tougher for the coaches to focus on the better recruits and still lose them.)

[Franks Tanks]

Thanks for the first-hand account.

(Yes, and even in the MAAC days, there were no guarantees that a football prospect would get admitted, either. Makes it that much tougher for the coaches to focus on the better recruits and still lose them.)

I didn't consider Georgetown a possibility, but they came to see me very late in the process. I was very excited when the OL coach was high on me and I would have seriously considered attending Georgetown even though it would have cost more out of pocket. Unfortunantly my AI was pretty low for the Georgetown standard, and I will always remeber the line from the recruiter. He said "Our Head Coach (Benson) asked the dean for a personal favor on his behalf to get you in and he said no". I guess Benson didn't have the same pull as Thompson!

[heath]

Is 80% a good average of 'special' aid given to PL football players, or is it less?Would it matter how bad that school wanted you as Franks T mentioned earlier.If PL teams dress 95 to 100 on home games,only 63 have full rides?or will there be half schollies?Lot of questions,but just interested to see how this works in year 1

[jimbo65]

I didn't consider Georgetown a possibility, but they came to see me very late in the process. I was very excited when the OL coach was high on me and I would have seriously considered attending Georgetown even though it would have cost more out of pocket. Unfortunantly my AI was pretty low for the Georgetown standard, and I will always remeber the line from the recruiter. He said "Our Head Coach (Benson) asked the dean for a personal favor on his behalf to get you in and he said no". I guess Benson didn't have the same pull as Thompson!
IMO this post says it all about the AI. You obviously were academically fit, graduating from LaFayette. Just because some dweeb types at GU have a standard they think puts them above the hoi polloi, you were denied admission. By the way, sight unseen I'll match your AI against the entire Gtown basketball team when you went to school. The standard was, and I believe is, not evenly applied.

[CFBfan]

IMO this post says it all about the AI. You obviously were academically fit, graduating from LaFayette. Just because some dweeb types at GU have a standard they think puts them above the hoi polloi, you were denied admission. By the way, sight unseen I'll match your AI against the entire Gtown basketball team when you went to school. The standard was, and I believe is, not evenly applied.

The AI is there for a reason and I think for good reason (just my opinion) and with scholarships the PL teams could recruit well and field very competetive teams....just look at U Penn
There's no need to sacrafice academic standards to have a competitve football team (just look at Stanford)
and let's be realistic very very few kids will suit up on Sundays with or without the AI so why sacrafice academics???

[Franks Tanks]

The AI is there for a reason and I think for good reason (just my opinion) and with scholarships the PL teams could recruit well and field very competetive teams....just look at U Penn
There's no need to sacrafice academic standards to have a competitve football team (just look at Stanford)
and let's be realistic very very few kids will suit up on Sundays with or without the AI so why sacrafice academics???

While Stanford still has quality student-athletes their sucess is directly related to who they are letting in school. Apparently Stanford fired a dean in the admission office who was rejecting virtually every recruit the FB staff wanted. Harbaugh is a great coach, but he is also getting in the kids he wants for the most part. Is is akin to Notre Dame. For whatever reason Lou Holtz had relaxed admission standards and got kids like Ricky Waters. When standards were raised ND became very average.

[Franks Tanks]

IMO this post says it all about the AI. You obviously were academically fit, graduating from LaFayette. Just because some dweeb types at GU have a standard they think puts them above the hoi polloi, you were denied admission. By the way, sight unseen I'll match your AI against the entire Gtown basketball team when you went to school. The standard was, and I believe is, not evenly applied.

Well Georgetown just doesn't put that premium on football. I would have done fine in the classroom at Georgetown, but based on my information I didn't really deserve to be admitted.

[CFBfan]

While Stanford still has quality student-athletes their sucess is directly related to who they are letting in school. Apparently Stanford fired a dean in the admission office who was rejecting virtually every recruit the FB staff wanted. Harbaugh is a great coach, but he is also getting in the kids he wants for the most part. Is is akin to Notre Dame. For whatever reason Lou Holtz had relaxed admission standards and got kids like Ricky Waters. When standards were raised ND became very average.

Fair and good points Frank. I opened up the BCS issue with Stanford but doubt PL schools will make that jump. Perhaps I should have stuck with U Penn BUT unless the Ivies ever decide to participate in the playoffs we may never really know if they truly are very good....

[Franks Tanks]

Fair and good points Frank. I opened up the BCS issue with Stanford but doubt PL schools will make that jump. Perhaps I should have stuck with U Penn BUT unless the Ivies ever decide to participate in the playoffs we may never really know if they truly are very good....

And I agree at the PL/Ivy level we can be very good without compromising academics.

[DFW HOYA]

IMO this post says it all about the AI. You obviously were academically fit, graduating from LaFayette. Just because some dweeb types at GU have a standard they think puts them above the hoi polloi, you were denied admission. By the way, sight unseen I'll match your AI against the entire Gtown basketball team when you went to school. The standard was, and I believe is, not evenly applied.

If you read the original post, it appears his experience with Georgetown was when the Hoyas competed in the MAAC, which had no AI at all. One can assume the bar is set that much higher with an AI for current recruits.

As for basketball, avoid generalizations. Jonathan Wallace was walking on at Princeton before he joined the Georgetown basketball team and earned a scholarship; today he's got a standing offer at a top 10 law school once his career in the European leagues comes to an end. As to admissions, a standard is applied-- scholarship athletes go through a second review process to ensure that they are capable of college level work, and some recruits never get signed in the process. But where are your complaints that Georgetown is letting in sub-par baseball players or women's lacrosse athletes or men's distance runners? Either way, scholarship athletes at Georgetown get the work done and graduate on time.

[CFBfan]

IMO this post says it all about the AI. You obviously were academically fit, graduating from LaFayette. Just because some dweeb types at GU have a standard they think puts them above the hoi polloi, you were denied admission. By the way, sight unseen I'll match your AI against the entire Gtown basketball team when you went to school. The standard was, and I believe is, not evenly applied.

by the way, the basketball team does NOT play in the PL so the PL AI would NOT apply to them

[Franks Tanks]

If you read the original post, it appears his experience with Georgetown was when the Hoyas competed in the MAAC, which had no AI at all. One can assume the bar is set that much higher with an AI for current recruits.

As for basketball, avoid generalizations. Jonathan Wallace was walking on at Princeton before he joined the Georgetown basketball team and earned a scholarship; today he's got a standing offer at a top 10 law school once his career in the European leagues comes to an end. As to admissions, a standard is applied-- scholarship athletes go through a second review process to ensure that they are capable of college level work, and some recruits never get signed in the process. But where are your complaints that Georgetown is letting in sub-par baseball players or women's lacrosse athletes or men's distance runners? Either way, scholarship athletes at Georgetown get the work done and graduate on time.

I was recruited to Georgetown in the late 90's when they were in the MAAC. I used the term AI, but at the time Georgetown of course did not need to comply with any league wide AI. The academic requirements were self imposed and still very high.

I was recruited by plenty of FCS schools. Not all of them wanted me in the end, and not all offered aid or scholarship money. However only the Ivies and Georgetown turned me down for admission.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Is the notion that the PL ought to scrap the academic index entirely? I'm not so sure that's a good idea.

[FootballDad11]

Scholarships do matter! My son has scholarship offers from West Point, Stanford, Toledo, and Colgate. We are waiting to see what happens with the PL scholarship situation before he makes any decisions.

[CFBfan]

Scholarships do matter! My son has scholarship offers from West Point, Stanford, Toledo, and Colgate. We are waiting to see what happens with the PL scholarship situation before he makes any decisions.

NO ONE pays for West Point and Colgate doe NOT offer scholarships just financial aid and if he can go to Stanford free what are you waiting for?? seriously, what PL team offers more than Stanford??
The only PL team and they are not a PL "participant" right now) that offers Football Scholarships is Fordham, do you have a full ride offer from them?? apparently not?
by the way that's a pretty scattered group of scholls you have there footballdad

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NO ONE pays for West Point and Colgate doe NOT offer scholarships just financial aid and if he can go to Stanford free what are you waiting for?? seriously, what PL team offers more than Stanford??
The only PL team and they are not a PL "participant" right now) that offers Football Scholarships is Fordham, do you have a full ride offer from them?? apparently not?
by the way that's a pretty scattered group of scholls you have there footballdad

Stanford might be a "preferred walk-on" deal.

[CFBfan]

Stanford might be a "preferred walk-on" deal.

according to "footballdad" his kid has a "scholarship offer"
very little of what he said in his post makes sense....

[Bogus Megapardus]

NO ONE pays for West Point and Colgate doe NOT offer scholarships just financial aid and if he can go to Stanford free what are you waiting for?? seriously, what PL team offers more than Stanford??
The only PL team and they are not a PL "participant" right now) that offers Football Scholarships is Fordham, do you have a full ride offer from them?? apparently not?
by the way that's a pretty scattered group of scholls you have there footballdad


It certainly would be foretelling if the young man actually *does* have a scholarship offer from Colgate, wouldn't it?

[DFW HOYA]

It certainly would be foretelling if the young man actually *does* have a scholarship offer from Colgate, wouldn't it?
If he had a scholarship offer from Georgetown, even more so...

[jimbo65]

by the way, the basketball team does NOT play in the PL so the PL AI would NOT apply to them
I'm well aware of there GU plays bball. My point, if I have one, is that there is a huge inconsistency in how GU applies admission criteria. Fball apparently very selective, bball very liberal. Of course bball brings in $s, fball does not. Personally, I agree with Fr. O'Hare, former prez of Fordham who said as to admitting athletes on scholarship that his criteria is whether they have a reasonable opportunity for academic success. He did not differentiate by sport. Presumably the softball candidate was viewed the same as the bball candidate.

[Franks Tanks]

according to "footballdad" his kid has a "scholarship offer"
very little of what he said in his post makes sense....

Yes, and the fact that he said scholarship offer from West Point also hurts his credibility. Virtually nobody turns down an offer from Stanford. If he had one he would've signed up already. Also Stanford isn't recruiting against Toldeo and West Point. They didn't make the Orange Bowl with players like that.

[Kramden]

Bogus Megapardus;1596713]Is the notion that the PL ought to scrap the academic index entirely? I'm not so sure that's a good idea.


What's the downside? Do you really think the school's academic reputation would go down if the AI was scrapped?

[colorless raider]

If you read the original post, it appears his experience with Georgetown was when the Hoyas competed in the MAAC, which had no AI at all. One can assume the bar is set that much higher with an AI for current recruits.

As for basketball, avoid generalizations. Jonathan Wallace was walking on at Princeton before he joined the Georgetown basketball team and earned a scholarship; today he's got a standing offer at a top 10 law school once his career in the European leagues comes to an end. As to admissions, a standard is applied-- scholarship athletes go through a second review process to ensure that they are capable of college level work, and some recruits never get signed in the process. But where are your complaints that Georgetown is letting in sub-par baseball players or women's lacrosse athletes or men's distance runners? Either way, scholarship athletes at Georgetown get the work done and graduate on time.

What is the graduation rate of the basketball team?

[Franks Tanks]

Bogus Megapardus;1596713]Is the notion that the PL ought to scrap the academic index entirely? I'm not so sure that's a good idea.


What's the downside? Do you really think the school's academic reputation would go down if the AI was scrapped?

The PL needs to keep Lehigh in check with the AI.

[FootballDad11]

Maybe I should have said OFFERS to play football there. Stanford is a full scholarship and he is going through the application process right now. (Just got test scores needed). I guess my point was that if Colgate ends up offering scholarships, then it would be a great option for him with a strong academic and football tradition. Toledo may have better football but not the academics.

[CFBfan]

Maybe I should have said OFFERS to play football there. Stanford is a full scholarship and he is going through the application process right now. (Just got test scores needed). I guess my point was that if Colgate ends up offering scholarships, then it would be a great option for him with a strong academic and football tradition. Toledo may have better football but not the academics.

If Stanford (or anyone else) wants him they wouldn't "offer" unless they knew he could get in. No offense to Gate but you just don't turn down Stanford for them

[Go...gate]

Is the notion that the PL ought to scrap the academic index entirely? I'm not so sure that's a good idea.

If you go over to the Fordham board they are wild to discard it. I thought scholarships were the only issue with the Rams, but AI is apparantly highly objectionable as well. I think the AI is necessary.

[Go...gate]

Bogus Megapardus;1596713]Is the notion that the PL ought to scrap the academic index entirely? I'm not so sure that's a good idea.


What's the downside? Do you really think the school's academic reputation would go down if the AI was scrapped?

There is a much greater chance for abuse.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The PL needs to keep Lehigh in check with the AI.

I'm waiting for the posts suggesting that Lehigh has "outperformed" the Patriot; that its "anachronistic" rivalry with Lafayette and the rest of the league, while an "historic and and important component of the Brown and White legacy," cannot be allowed to "hinder the preeminent success of the undisputed leader" in academics, athletics, artistry and all-around moral virtue going forward; and that, while it "appreciates the competition that Patriot schools once provided" on the road to its "unparalleled athletic success," Lehigh has decided to "separate itself" from the lesser colleges and hangers-on and become "more like Stanford and Duke."

xlolxxrotatehxxnodx


If you go over to the Fordham board they are wild to discard it. I thought scholarships were the only issue with the Rams, but AI is apparantly highly objectionable as well. I think the AI is necessary.

The Fordham board is for entertainment purposes only. Do not try this at home.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, and the fact that he said scholarship offer from West Point also hurts his credibility. Virtually nobody turns down an offer from Stanford. If he had one he would've signed up already. Also Stanford isn't recruiting against Toldeo and West Point. They didn't make the Orange Bowl with players like that.


If Stanford (or anyone else) wants him they wouldn't "offer" unless they knew he could get in. No offense to Gate but you just don't turn down Stanford for them

If you are getting a 100% deal from Stanford, you probably take that - but even then, there is an asterisk. Is the depth chart loaded with redshirt talent from last year? Are there Rivals Top 100 people in front of you? Is it a true 100% deal, or is it a "preferred walk-on" situation where you get a shot to win a scholarship next year - if you're good enough? Is it too far away for the family to realistically go and attend games - when games at Colgate or Lehigh are ones where all the family members can attend every game?

I'm just saying that there are perfectly good reasons to go to PL schools over going to Stanford, Dartmouth, Army or anywhere else. We shouldn't be surprised that kids consider the high-academics, increased playing time, etc. that PL teams provide over a possible one-in-a-million shot at seeing the field at Stanford, Penn State, Rutgers, etc.

[DFW HOYA]

What is the graduation rate of the basketball team?

This is getting very off-topic but I'll answer it for clarity purposes.

Per NCAA GSR figures, 93% of Georgetown students graduate vs. 84% of student-athletes; as many of you know, transfers reduce the GSR numbers as well as early entrants to the NBA draft. The 2010 GSR for men's basketball was 78%, football was 80%. During the elder John Thompson years (1972-99), all but two of his seniors graduated and both of these were before 1980, so unless you're going to the NBA early, you are expected to graduate and they do. (Of the recent early NBA entrants, Jeff Green has come back to summer school each of the last three years and will get his degree soon, and Greg Monroe may do this as well.)

Now, back to football!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm waiting for the posts suggesting that Lehigh has "outperformed" the Patriot; that its "anachronistic" rivalry with Lafayette and the rest of the league, while an "historic and and important component of the Brown and White legacy," cannot be allowed to "hinder the preeminent success of the undisputed leader" in academics, athletics, artistry and all-around moral virtue going forward; and that, while it "appreciates the competition that Patriot schools once provided" on the road to its "unparalleled athletic success," Lehigh has decided to "separate itself" from the lesser colleges and hangers-on and become "more like Stanford and Duke."

This sounds like a cross between an LFN blog posting, a Patriot League press release and a amalgam of Fordhamfans posters. Indeed: "do not try this at home". xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

This sounds like a cross between an LFN blog posting, a Patriot League press release and a amalgam of Fordhamfans posters. Indeed: "do not try this at home". xlolx

I was looking for a tongue-in-cheek smiley icon, but I couldn't find one.

[FootballDad11]

I am not saying he would, but if Stanford does not work out. (Harbaugh takes Michigan Job? He does not get into Stanford? Their recruiting class is Full? etc.) Trust me the recruiting process is very stressful at times. Would Colgate be better then Toledo?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I am not saying he would, but if Stanford does not work out. (Harbaugh takes Michigan Job? He does not get into Stanford? Their recruiting class is Full? etc.) Trust me the recruiting process is very stressful at times. Would Colgate be better then Toledo?

Depends on what you want out of college.

[Franks Tanks]

If you go over to the Fordham board they are wild to discard it. I thought scholarships were the only issue with the Rams, but AI is apparantly highly objectionable as well. I think the AI is necessary.

The Fordham board is also having a spirited discussion about joining the MAC for football. They are actually serious about this. I have no idea what some of those folks are smoking.

[Doc QB]

I went through the process as well. Lafayette is like Lehigh in the sense that it is a "special" aid allocated for football. If a player quits the amount of aid available to them will dimish quite sharply.

I dont know if DOC or anyone else cares about all this, but I figured I would share a typical PL recruiting scenario under the current system.

Totally interested. I took official trips (circa 1990) to LU, Holy Cross, James Madison, Richmond. My fifth was to be either UPenn or W&M, but cancelled them when I really wanted to follow my old man at LU. I had offers to officially visit URI, Maine, VMI (with scholarships), Cornell, and Umass (no offer at time pending), but never entertained it. 'Nova and Delaware had solid QBs and little to no interest. All the other Ivies came to school with official visits planned, I never thought twice about it. Still have the handwritten letter from the venerable Joe Restic from Harvard that said, "Jim, break 1000 and welcome to Harvard."

And he was not talking about SATs.

[FootballDad11]

Depends on what you want out of college.


Great academics with D1 Football.

[Sader87]

Great academics with D1 Football.

Toledo

[Bogus Megapardus]

A couple of notable exceptions aside, this quote sums up the prevailing sentiments of fans posting on the Fordham board:


With the exception of dropping football in 1954, the single worst thing that has ever happened with Fordham Athletics is our full membership in the Patriot League. It's as simple as that.

A fan base that despises its conference affiliation that strongly will not attend games. It really is as simple as that. Georgetown fans, despite the team's similar lack of recent success, seem to favor their school's football affiliation. Both schools were similar football powerhouses long ago but dropped football in the 1950s.Why the stark difference?

Fordham posters - if Fordham chooses to remain in a scholarship-based Patriot League for football, should teams from other league schools, when visiting Fordham, expect to be greeted with such derision and negativity for the foreseeable future?

[Doc QB]

Scholarships do matter! My son has scholarship offers from West Point, Stanford, Toledo, and Colgate. We are waiting to see what happens with the PL scholarship situation before he makes any decisions.

You don't even fill out an application for FBS schools, so I doubt seriously this guy has a scholarship offer from Stanford. And, the way Stanford recruits now, they know who they are getting during these kid's junior years, and they are now higher ranked prospects who would have other big FBS programs after them, not the ones listed here. Probably more Pac 10 ones.

And...the former Yankee Conf-now CAA schools that did offer me back in the 90's...I got into five of them. Only applied to one. The one, aplogized for not being able to give me a refund for the application fee ($40 back then) because I did not need to do it. Had they handed me a check, WHAM-O NCAA violation.

Full scholarship schools rarely require applications. I applied to LU, HC (they gave me an app fee waiver), and UPenn. I got into ten schools. Do the math. Waiting for applications to be processed and acceptances given does not happen at FBS schools, let alone FCS in the 90's.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Toledo

At Toledo, your son can expect to play against Eastern Michigan and Ball State, and perhaps play in a non-BCS bowl game. At Colgate, your son can expect to play against Harvard and Yale, and perhaps compete in the FCS playoffs. Toledo is in a metropolitan area; Colgate is in the countryside. Colgate in general is much more challenging academically and your son will not have any "easy grade" options. At either school, he will get out of it what he puts into it.

[Doc QB]

And doing that math above...UPenn fired Dick Maloney as Off Coordinator, when from pass happy to option attack, and my rejection letter soon followed.

[Franks Tanks]

You don't even fill out an application for FBS schools, so I doubt seriously this guy has a scholarship offer from Stanford. And, the way Stanford recruits now, they know who they are getting during these kid's junior years, and they are now higher ranked prospects who would have other big FBS programs after them, not the ones listed here. Probably more Pac 10 ones.

And...the former Yankee Conf-now CAA schools that did offer me back in the 90's...I got into five of them. Only applied to one. The one, aplogized for not being able to give me a refund for the application fee ($40 back then) because I did not need to do it. Had they handed me a check, WHAM-O NCAA violation.

Full scholarship schools rarely require applications. I applied to LU, HC (they gave me an app fee waiver), and UPenn. I got into ten schools. Do the math. Waiting for applications to be processed and acceptances given does not happen at FBS schools, let alone FCS in the 90's.

I never really applied to a college either. The recruiters asked me to fill out the most basic elements of the common application, and asked for my High School transcript and SAT scores. That was all.

[Doc QB]

I never really applied to a college either. The recruiters asked me to fill out the most basic elements of the common application, and asked for my High School transcript and SAT scores. That was all.

And boy, was that UPenn one a b!tch to do. Five freakin' essays and $70 bucks. Glad we smoked 'em the next year, made me feel a little better. And we destroyed that option QB, too.

[Go...gate]

A couple of notable exceptions aside, this quote sums up the prevailing sentiments of fans posting on the Fordham board:



A fan base that despises its conference affiliation that strongly will not attend games. It really is as simple as that. Georgetown fans, despite the team's similar lack of recent success, seem to favor their school's football affiliation. Both schools were similar football powerhouses long ago but dropped football in the 1950s.Why the stark difference?

Fordham posters - if Fordham chooses to remain in a scholarship-based Patriot League for football, should teams from other league schools, when visiting Fordham, expect to be greeted with such derision and negativity for the foreseeable future?

I saw that too. The poster is a very Pro-Fordham and Anti-Patriot League guy, but what I notice is that he used to be the lone voice of his kind on that board and no longer is. The well is really poisoned, and that is regrettable. If Fordham stays, it may be a very uneasy relationship.

[CFBfan]

I am not saying he would, but if Stanford does not work out. (Harbaugh takes Michigan Job? He does not get into Stanford? Their recruiting class is Full? etc.) Trust me the recruiting process is very stressful at times. Would Colgate be better then Toledo?

I understand the process I went thru many moons ago and my 1st sone 2 years ago, yes it's stressful BUT you don't have an "offer" until you actualy HAVE an offer!
does he or does he not have an offer from Stanford? if he does I would take it!
Pesonaly I would take Colgate over Toledo BUT if you're asking that I'm thinking you have "inetrest" from Stanford not an "offer"?

[Franks Tanks]

http://footballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1143962



Stanford has that effect on many recruits. The Cardinal have more commits (22) than any other Pac-10 program and, while others are scrambling to land pledges during the season, Harbaugh and his staff are putting the final touches on their class. All 22 were committed before Stanford's first game this season.

More than one-third of Stanford's class is four-star prospects and they come from all across the country. Linebacker James Vaughters is from Tucker, Ga. Remound Wright plays in Fort Wayne, Ind. Anthony Sarao, an outside linebacker, is out of Absecon, N.J.



Found this article. As of October 25th Stanford had 22 commitments and a virtually complete class that will be one of the best in the country. Unless your son currently has an offer from Stanford the chances that he will get one are remote. Stanford has a quality coach and an administration that seems to be serious about winning football games. The Pac-10 better get ready for the Cardinal.

[superman7515]

Maybe the kid is a future signing. Heck, we get 14 year olds giving verbals to USC in Delaware, haha.

[FootballDad11]

I understand the process I went thru many moons ago and my 1st sone 2 years ago, yes it's stressful BUT you don't have an "offer" until you actualy HAVE an offer!
does he or does he not have an offer from Stanford? if he does I would take it!
Pesonaly I would take Colgate over Toledo BUT if you're asking that I'm thinking you have "inetrest" from Stanford not an "offer"?

Well then I guess he has an offer. Its on Stanford letterhead and signed by Jim Harbaugh. It says full athletic scholarship.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well then I guess he has an offer. Its on Stanford letterhead and signed by Jim Harbaugh. It says full athletic scholarship.

If so, go directly to Stanford. Do not pass Toledo; do not land at Colgate; do not collect $200. There is no decision to be made here. Your kid just hit the lottery.

[ngineer]

If so, go directly to Stanford. Do not pass Toledo; do not land at Colgate; do not collect $200. There is no decision to be made here. Your kid just hit the lottery.

I think you mean to pass Toledo?? I agree a full scholarship to Stanford is a no brainer.

[Kramden]

Same here. Why even consider passing up a scholarship to Stanford to go to Colgate or Toledo?

[heath]

I never really applied to a college either. The recruiters asked me to fill out the most basic elements of the common application, and asked for my High School transcript and SAT scores. That was all.

Totally different now.You might be guarenteed admission thru football but you will fill out,or someone else will fill out the forms.

[TheValleyRaider]

Well then I guess he has an offer. Its on Stanford letterhead and signed by Jim Harbaugh. It says full athletic scholarship.

Man, I love Colgate, but even I would be hard-pressed to turn down an offer like that

Unless your son has concerns about playing time or location, or he really likes Colgate (and who could blame him?), then I think the choice is fairly clear xtwocentsx

[heath]

Well then I guess he has an offer. Its on Stanford letterhead and signed by Jim Harbaugh. It says full athletic scholarship.

Getting a form letter in the mail with 10,000 other seniors does not constitute a schollie,please go to jail and do not collect 200 dollars

[van]

Man, I love Colgate, but even I would be hard-pressed to turn down an offer like that

Unless your son has concerns about playing time or location, or he really likes Colgate (and who could blame him?), then I think the choice is fairly clear xtwocentsx

Yeah, there might be some high school seniors that like snow and desolation. Colgate would be perfect for them!

[TheValleyRaider]

Yeah, there might be some high school seniors that like snow and desolation. Colgate would be perfect for them!

Like Nate Eachus? xsmiley_wix

[jimbo65]

Does anyone know when the PL is to go public with the decision re. scholarships?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Does anyone know when the PL is to go public with the decision re. scholarships?

Never. I suspect it will be on WikiLeaks.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Never. I suspect it will be on WikiLeaks.

So when are we going to see intelligence on that?

"Publicly, Lafayette president Daniel Weiss offered his support of football scholarships, but he shared with an intelligence official that he felt the football program was filled with a bunch of rock-heads. He also carries an autographed picture of Northeastern University President Joseph Aoun in his pocket."

[Franks Tanks]

So when are we going to see intelligence on that?

"Publicly, Lafayette president Daniel Weiss offered his support of football scholarships, but he shared with an intelligence official that he felt the football program was filled with a bunch of rock-heads. He also carries an autographed picture of Northeastern University President Joseph Aoun in his pocket."

Weiss is by no means anti-athletics, but he is also does not have a vision to improve our programs in any substantial way.

[bison137]

This is getting very off-topic but I'll answer it for clarity purposes.

Per NCAA GSR figures, 93% of Georgetown students graduate vs. 84% of student-athletes; as many of you know, transfers reduce the GSR numbers as well as early entrants to the NBA draft.


The GSR numbers are NOT affected by transfers. The NCAA created that metric specifically to improve graduation rates by removing outgoing transfers from the equation. (Plus they count incoming transfers, who have a much higher graduation rate than incoming freshmen.) The federal graduation rate is the one where you are penalized for transfers.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It's official - Lafayette will vote "No" on scholarships:

http://media.www.thelaf.com/media/storage/paper339/news/2010/12/10/News/Weiss.To.Vote.No-3966931.shtml

[DFW HOYA]

"The College is very supportive of the Patriot League, but what specific actions we will take in light of this vote is not clear. It's unlikely that we'd simply carry on as we do and have the League all become scholarships if we aren't doing them," he said.

Discuss...

[Bogus Megapardus]

Discuss...

Pioneer League.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"The College is very supportive of the Patriot League, but what specific actions we will take in light of this vote is not clear. It's unlikely that we'd simply carry on as we do and have the League all become scholarships if we aren't doing them," he said.

Discuss...

"Unlikely" is not the same as "We will absolutely, positively, definitely not".

It's "unlikely" that they're carry on the current way, but they might.

This implies there is a debate still going on at Lafayette about the matter. That's bad news for Lafayette. Worse news if that's the attitude on a couple more PL campuses.

[Go...gate]

Jeepers....

[Go...gate]

Pioneer League.

And what does that mean for the Lehigh - Lafayette football rivalry?

[Franks Tanks]

If Lafayette ends the rivarly or implements procedures to make us uncompetitive in the rivalry that may as well be the end of Lafayette football for most alums and fans.

May as well convert Fisher into the premiere Lacrosse venue in the nation.

[Bogus Megapardus]

If Lafayette ends the rivarly or implements procedures to make us uncompetitive in the rivalry that may as well be the end of Lafayette football for most alums and fans.

May as well convert Fisher into the premiere Lacrosse venue in the nation.

And how many millions were spent on that football-only facility to make it one of the finest in the nation?

[Franks Tanks]

And how many millions were spent on that football-only facility to make it one of the finest in the nation?

I feel bad for Jack Bourger, the Fisher family, and everyone else who donated money to build our new facilities.

[Go...gate]

So do I understand this to mean that LC will not go along with the leaguie if the majority of members vote for football scholarships?

[Franks Tanks]

So do I understand this to mean that LC will not go along with the leaguie if the majority of members vote for football scholarships?

Weiss' comments were so cryptic it is hard for me to figure out what the hell he is saying. What I think we do know is that Weiss doesn't want scholarships, and appears we have no plan if they are implemented.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

As a supporter of Lehigh football it really doesn't matter to me if Lafayette adds schollies or decides against them. In fact, if they vote against them and stand firm on their decision it would only help Lehigh in terms of recruiting imo.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/12/breaking-news-lafayette-to-vote-no-on.html

I had to weigh in on the first public word on the scholarship vote. I'm really stunned - and disappointed.

[Franks Tanks]

As a supporter of Lehigh football it really doesn't matter to me if Lafayette adds schollies or decides against them. In fact, if they vote against them and stand firm on their decision it would only help Lehigh in terms of recruiting imo.

It should. Uncompetitve Lafayette-Lehigh games would be bad for both programs.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It should. Uncompetitve Lafayette-Lehigh games would be bad for both programs.

I disagree. I remember when Lafayette was terrible in the late 90's and early 2000's. In no way did that hurt Lehigh. In fact there was quite a bit of talk among Lehigh fans if Colgate had replaced Lafayette as their number one rival at the time. No one seemed upset about Lafayette's inability to compete at the time.

[LURules]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/12/breaking-news-lafayette-to-vote-no-on.html

I had to weigh in on the first public word on the scholarship vote. I'm really stunned - and disappointed.

Good write up. I just don't see how they are going to sustain/expand the league without scholarships. The only potential options I have seen are not too exciting adds. With scholarships there are many viable options considering the CAA turmoil.

I just don't see what the patriot league gains from the Ivy "partnership" we continue to loose to them on the recruiting trail.

[Franks Tanks]

I disagree. I remember when Lafayette was terrible in the late 90's and early 2000's. In no way did that hurt Lehigh. In fact there was quite a bit of talk among Lehigh fans if Colgate had replaced Lafayette as their number one rival at the time. No one seemed upset about Lafayette's inability to compete at the time.

That was a relatively short period of time,4-5 years, and both school were still competing under the same set of rules. I am speaking more of a sustained period of completely uncompetitive games. A few Lehigh fans may have felt Colgate was the main rival, but looking at attendance at Lehigh/Colgate games not enough agree.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That was a relatively short period of time,4-5 years, and both school were still competing under the same set of rules. I am speaking more of a sustained period of completely uncompetitive games. A few Lehigh fans may have felt Colgate was the main rival, but looking at attendance at Lehigh/Colgate games not enough agree.


Given the fact that there were not many Colgate fans in attendance these are pretty darn good numbers.

'98 LU-CU 13,432
'00 LU-CU 12,862
'02 LU-CU 15,023
'04 I don't have the figure but i know it was well over 12k.

[CFBfan]

I disagree. I remember when Lafayette was terrible in the late 90's and early 2000's. In no way did that hurt Lehigh. In fact there was quite a bit of talk among Lehigh fans if Colgate had replaced Lafayette as their number one rival at the time. No one seemed upset about Lafayette's inability to compete at the time.

while that may be true it's a to hell with the PL I'm only concerned with MY schools future....

[Franks Tanks]

Lafayette claims that it would rather use its financial resources for need based scholarships instead of football scholarships.

Here is a thought - Why not raise a fund from alumni that would specifically be used to fund the incremental amount needed to have full football scholarships, over and above what they are offering the current football players in need based scholarships.

We can afford football schoalrships, the issue is the corresponding scholarships that must be given to female sports.

[DFW HOYA]

I think there's an issue being missed here.

It's one thing to vote "no"--no one expected a unanimous vote, anyway. It's another thing when one (or more) schools throws down the gauntlet and says they are not going to offer them regardless. Weiss may make the case in the meeting that if it doesn't make sense to his college, it may not make sense to others, either. Presidents listen to their peers (versus, say, a coach or an athletic director) more than we think.

Georgetown without scholarships? "No big deal anyway", say the PL hierarchy. And not at Lafayette? "Um, wait a minute, here..." they ask. What if Holy Cross follows suit? Bucknell? Can the league govern itself as two groups going in two different directions? Or does the league pull back, allow 63 full-need equivalencies that meet the counter rules for those who seek it, and keep the awkward status quo?

The PL doesn't want to lose Fordham, but they sure don't want to lose Lafayette...or others that haven't been heard from.

[danefan]

In brighter news for the Patriot League - Skelton will start for the Cards this weekend........not all things have to be negative today. :)

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/articles/2010/12/10/20101210arizona-cardinals-john-skelton-start-denver.html

[danefan]

so we are looking at double the amount of funds needed than just the increase in football scholarships?

Not exactly double and its not even the case for all PL schools.

Some PL schools take the position that their need-based aid does not need to be counted for Title IX purposes. Those schools would need to offset any scholarship spending with equivalent female expenditures (the exact amount depends on the male-female ratio of the general student body).
Some PL schools (like Fordham did before this year) count their need-based aid in the Title IX calculation and therefore would not have any additional Title IX expenditures except for any additional aid they add (e.g. if they off 40 equivalencies now and went to 63 scholarships they'd only have to offset the cost of the additional 23 scholarships).

That's why Fordham's move was easy and didn't cost them a dime.

[Franks Tanks]

so we are looking at double the amount of funds needed than just the increase in football scholarships?

The waters are a bit muddy, but based on the way each school accounts for finanical aid currently, some schools may be set-up better than others for the title IX implications of football scholarships. Lafayette spends about 4 million on football and pretty much fully funds their football team at the FCS level. What we can't do is convert to scholarships without adding scholarships for women.

[danefan]

BTW - its amazing that the Ivy league is still driving the Patriot League's ship after all these years.

Don't the PL schools have confidence in the fact that they have a strong enough identity without the Ivy's?

[Go...gate]

Are we looking at a new football league?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Are we looking at a new football league?

If that's what it takes for everyone to find their comfort zone then i'd be all for it.

[RichH2]

Pards have to be dragged into schollies everytime. LC has always been a no I doubt a public announcement will alter any other school's position. LU, Gate ,FU and BU YES. Cross who knows LC and GU NO

[danefan]

Are we looking at a new football league?

I was thinking the same thing. We already know the PL by-laws allow Army and Navy to play football in another conference, but do they allow you to play in a different conference within the same level if the PL goes to a scholarship model?

Patriot (Scholarship)
Lehigh
Fordham
Colgate
Bucknell
New Hampshire
Maine
Albany
Stony Brook


Holy Cross (maybe), Lafayette and Georgetown to a new need-based aid league with the likes of Marist, Davidson, Dayton, Butler, etc....

HC, Lafayette and G'Town fans would probably harp on that, but its not crazy to think that its possible. All the teams in the Northeast are up in the air right now.

[DFW HOYA]

I was thinking the same thing. We already know the PL by-laws allow Army and Navy to play football in another conference, but do they allow you to play in a different conference within the same level if the PL goes to a scholarship model?


Most conferences prohibit this.

[Go...gate]

I was thinking the same thing. We already know the PL by-laws allow Army and Navy to play football in another conference, but do they allow you to play in a different conference within the same level if the PL goes to a scholarship model?

Patriot (Scholarship)
Lehigh
Fordham
Colgate
Bucknell
New Hampshire
Maine
Albany
Stony Brook


Holy Cross (maybe), Lafayette and Georgetown to a new need-based aid league with the likes of Marist, Davidson, Dayton, Butler, etc....

HC, Lafayette and G'Town fans would probably harp on that, but its not crazy to think that its possible. All the teams in the Northeast are up in the air right now.

You and I were thinking same thing. The dropping of FB by Hofstra and Northeastern, the possible movement of Villanova and Massachusetts out of the CAA to FBS and the intended move of URI to the NEC may bring these eight schools together by necessity.

[Franks Tanks]

I was thinking the same thing. We already know the PL by-laws allow Army and Navy to play football in another conference, but do they allow you to play in a different conference within the same level if the PL goes to a scholarship model?

Patriot (Scholarship)
Lehigh
Fordham
Colgate
Bucknell
New Hampshire
Maine
Albany
Stony Brook


Holy Cross (maybe), Lafayette and Georgetown to a new need-based aid league with the likes of Marist, Davidson, Dayton, Butler, etc....

HC, Lafayette and G'Town fans would probably harp on that, but its not crazy to think that its possible. All the teams in the Northeast are up in the air right now.

I guess anything is possible, but I doubt Bucknell will make a larger football commitment then Lafayette or Holy Cross. If they move to a new football league I suspect Bucknell will be there as well. Also I can't image the PL will simply allow their schools to play in any conference the want. The PL has been moving toward an all sports model, and would be surprised if the league allowed the football schools to go in any direction they want and still have a PL for all other sports.

[danefan]

Most conferences prohibit this.

The Socon and OVC both allow it (Davidson and Morehead State).

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think I'm going to become a Colgate fan.

[bostonspider]

Maybe the CAA can invite Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham to join.

CAA North
UNH
UMaine
Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
Delaware

South
Towson
Richmond
JMU
W&M
ODU
GSU

[van]

Maybe the CAA can invite Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham to join.

CAA North
UNH
UMaine
Colgate
Fordham
Lehigh
Delaware

South
Towson
Richmond
JMU
W&M
ODU
GSU

you forgot UMass and Villanova, unless you can tell the future.

[danefan]

you forgot UMass and Villanova, unless you can tell the future.

Both are as good as gone IMO and if not then the CAA has no incentive to add anyone, let alone three teams.

[Go...gate]

Whatever Monday's decision is, this is a deflating development.

[LUHawker]

Whatever Monday's decision is, this is a deflating development.

Frankly, i am not sure what all the hubbub is about. Based on seemingly credible comments on the LC board, we knew that LC would vote against, but that they would probably do what is voted for. This way the President can claim that he was against but that they have to go along with the league. I believe that this is a move for optics purposes. My reading of the article would support this. Of course, I could be totally misreading, but my read of the tea leaves suggests this. So with Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, Bucknell in favor with LC and Gtown against, it won't matter what HC does. It is a bogus move by Weiss but maybe it is something he needed to do, knowing that it won't matter in the end.

Let's hope I am right.

[Fordham]

Frankly, i am not sure what all the hubbub is about. Based on seemingly credible comments on the LC board, we knew that LC would vote against, but that they would probably do what is voted for. This way the President can claim that he was against but that they have to go along with the league. I believe that this is a move for optics purposes. My reading of the article would support this. Of course, I could be totally misreading, but my read of the tea leaves suggests this. So with Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, Bucknell in favor with LC and Gtown against, it won't matter what HC does. It is a bogus move by Weiss but maybe it is something he needed to do, knowing that it won't matter in the end.

Let's hope I am right. ha! I made a very similar post on the Fordham board a little while ago. I'm hoping we're both right as well

[Go...gate]

Frankly, i am not sure what all the hubbub is about. Based on seemingly credible comments on the LC board, we knew that LC would vote against, but that they would probably do what is voted for. This way the President can claim that he was against but that they have to go along with the league. I believe that this is a move for optics purposes. My reading of the article would support this. Of course, I could be totally misreading, but my read of the tea leaves suggests this. So with Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, Bucknell in favor with LC and Gtown against, it won't matter what HC does. It is a bogus move by Weiss but maybe it is something he needed to do, knowing that it won't matter in the end.

Let's hope I am right.

Indeed, let's hope you are.

[DFW HOYA]

If Weiss has somehow talked some combination of Army, Navy and/or American into voting no, there'll be some angry posters here Tuesday.

[scoonie]

As a Villanova grad, this discussion regarding scholarship football in the PL is interesting to me on several levels: 1) Both the PL member schools and Villanova are currently in the process of making monumental decisions regarding athletics that will have long range implications for all parties. 2) I'd guess that Villanova is 50/50 on making the move up to the FBS level. 3) If the PL says yes to schollies, and Villanova stays at the FCS level, that will have a dramatic (negative) affect on Villanova recruiting, making it even more difficult to compete in the CAA. 4) I think it's logical to assume that part of Villanova's due dilligence in exploring the move up, also includes exploring a sideways move---to a scholarship Patriot League (football only--although I think we are also play womens LAX in the PL.)

[DFW HOYA]

The Express Times wonders if there are now four "no" votes, or if "certain" schools (um...Colgate and Lehigh) simply offer them anyway like Fordham did. How does a four team race for the PL title sound?

Either way, no one really knows. And no guarantees after Monday, either. Maybe the Patriot League becomes less of a conference and more of an extended scheduling arrangement between schools.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/brad-wilson/index.ssf/2010/12/patriot_league_institutions_taking_sides_over_issu e_of_football_scholarships.html

[van]

Nova would be a great PL addition, but would they really leave the CAA even if PL had scholarships?

['Gate93]

I think I'm going to become a Colgate fan.
Don't give up on Lafayette...but Colgate fans are nice :-)



As a Villanova grad, this discussion regarding scholarship football in the PL is interesting to me on several levels: 1) Both the PL member schools and Villanova are currently in the process of making monumental decisions regarding athletics that will have long range implications for all parties. 2) I'd guess that Villanova is 50/50 on making the move up to the FBS level. 3) If the PL says yes to schollies, and Villanova stays at the FCS level, that will have a dramatic (negative) affect on Villanova recruiting, making it even more difficult to compete in the CAA. 4) I think it's logical to assume that part of Villanova's due dilligence in exploring the move up, also includes exploring a sideways move---to a scholarship Patriot League (football only--although I think we are also play womens LAX in the PL.)

Not sure why Nova would not be able to recruit well if scholarships happen for the PL. The school has a lot to offer that smaller PL schools cannot. Its reputation can't be beat.

['Gate93]

BTW - its amazing that the Ivy league is still driving the Patriot League's ship after all these years.

Don't the PL schools have confidence in the fact that they have a strong enough identity without the Ivy's?

Good question. There is history between the programs although both seem to benefit in different ways, whether it's bragging rights or scheduling. I think the PL is stuck in the middle b/c we may lose out to D3 schools like Middlebury as well as the Ivies (for academics as well, not just football). Colgate does not want to jeopardize academic integrity, not after having the best graduation rate for D1 athletes.

[danefan]

Good question. There is history between the programs although both seem to benefit in different ways, whether it's bragging rights or scheduling. I think the PL is stuck in the middle b/c we may lose out to D3 schools like Middlebury as well as the Ivies (for academics as well, not just football). Colgate does not want to jeopardize academic integrity, not after having the best graduation rate for D1 athletes.

I don't see how slowing your football league to align with the Ivy's really enhances the academic reputation of the Patriot League. Now if a league like the NEC did that, it would do wonders because schools like Wagner and Monmouth are unknowns. But the Patriot has an unbelivable academic reputation and history all by itself. Seems to me like its a lack of self identity, although I just don't understand why.

[DFW HOYA]

The school has a lot to offer that smaller PL schools cannot. Its reputation can't be beat.

Reputation only gets you so far.




Colgate does not want to jeopardize academic integrity, not after having the best graduation rate for D1 athletes.

Do you really think Colgate's integrity would be at risk? How many people would say, "Well, I used to think very highly of Colgate, until football..."

[RichH2]

Unfortunately after numerous threads and 1000s of posts we are excatly where we were months and months ago. Will Monday be the answer? One way or the other I suppose it will be. While many have opined on schollies with regard to our competitiveness with CAA, infact they will more serve to make us competitve with Ivies. 2ndarily we should become more competive nationally. I doubt the leaders of our respective schools care whether we can beat a Nova or UMASS . Will the submissiveness to IL shown by some Presidents sway the vote so that we dont alienate our patrons? Of course that view assumes that PL is too weak and lacking sufficent identity to stand on its own. NOT true. I enjoy LU's games with Harvard et al. Would love to return with Penn. Those games no longer completely define our league nor should we castrate our selves merely to maintain our status as the Washington Generals for the Ivies.

[Fordham]

Why would LC's president make his intentions public if he knew that a vote against scholarships was imminent? I obviously don't know for sure but I would think that a public statement of opposition would only be done if he knew scholarships were going to be implemented and he was going to be "forced" to go along ... or if it was a very, very close vote and he somehow thought that a public statement might rally support for his position at some schools who were undecided.

Who the heck knows but that's my read on it.

[Go...gate]

Reputation only gets you so far.




Do you really think Colgate's integrity would be at risk? How many people would say, "Well, I used to think very highly of Colgate, until football..."

I doubt many alumni would. Some of our faculty, on the other hand....

[LURules]

I doubt many alumni would. Some of our faculty, on the other hand....

Faculty tend to forget who make the donations to the schools. Lafayette quickly forgat the amount of money that the Fisher's gave to reuild their stadium. I m sure that alumni would support the funds needed to compete. Without competitive football, the donations will fall.

IMO this is all an indictment of Title IX and the ridiculous thought that women's sports are equal to men's sports. No women's sport draws like football and comparing women's basketball to men's basketball is a completely forced joke. But I don't want to turn this into a political forum!

[Fordham]

I have no issue with comparing womens hoops with mens hoops. The problem lies in the fact that there is no comparable women's sport to match up with football. The absurdity of Title IX IMO lies in not recognizing this.

[scoonie]

Nova would be a great PL addition, but would they really leave the CAA even if PL had scholarships?

I'm not saying that Nova would leave the CAA, but I'd be surprised if they were not considering all options.

Why would Villanova leave the CAA for a scholarship Patriot League? First and foremost, there is a lot of cross-pollination among Villanova and the other schools in the Patriot. Brothers, cousins, fathers and spouses (like my wife) are alums of PL schools. We feel more connection with Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell and Holy Cross, etc., than we do with UMass, James Madison, Maine and New Hampshire.

Aligning with the PL would lead to more interest and more attendance, and we could still schedule Temple as our opener and the annual brawl with Delaware to finish up. Of course, none of this is a possibility unless the PL goes to the 63 scholarship max.

[blukeys]

I have no issue with comparing womens hoops with mens hoops. The problem lies in the fact that there is no comparable women's sport to match up with football. The absurdity of Title IX IMO lies in not recognizing this.

For the Lehigh faithful the same thing can be said about wrestling. Although I would have been glad to be on an intergender wrestling team when I was in college.

[van]

We had intergender wrestling when I was an undergrad, but it was not sanctioned.

[RichH2]

Wrestling an apt example but the impact is numbers 63 to 9.9. Agree that in their zeal to implement TitleIX football was purposely ignored by its supporters as it was treated as just another game by ADs to water down TitleIX. I have 2 daughters and 2 sons , and I favor the same equality for each of them in pursuing athletics. Ignoring football not only unfair but it has lead to ridiculous antics by schools to "comply". female equstrian squads of over 70; female rowing with over 100 kids etc etc. Many agree some sort of adjustment is necessary but the hardliners have so far fought it to a stand still.

Unfortunately, there is still enuf scheming to give them ammo .

In PL, there is no claim that girls are not proportionatlely provided ample opportunity for sports at any school. However, some schools have used creative accounting to stay in compliance and save money at the same time. Schollies are doubly expensive for them thereby putting them at a competitive disadvantage in football if they cannot match the new schollies on the female side.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm not saying that Nova would leave the CAA, but I'd be surprised if they were not considering all options.

Why would Villanova leave the CAA for a scholarship Patriot League? First and foremost, there is a lot of cross-pollination among Villanova and the other schools in the Patriot. Brothers, cousins, fathers and spouses (like my wife) are alums of PL schools. We feel more connection with Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell and Holy Cross, etc., than we do with UMass, James Madison, Maine and New Hampshire.

Aligning with the PL would lead to more interest and more attendance, and we could still schedule Temple as our opener and the annual brawl with Delaware to finish up. Of course, none of this is a possibility unless the PL goes to the 63 scholarship max.

Good post, and all of this should've happened 25 plus years ago!

[superman7515]

We had two female wrestlers on my high school team. One made the Olympics.

Jenna Pavlik (http://www.cusaw.org/?p=769)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Of course, none of this is a possibility unless the PL goes to the 63 scholarship max.

It seems like I keep saying this day after day in terms of scholarships. With 63, the PL has all sorts of options for money games, a shot at attracting a Villanova, Richmond, New Hampshire, etc. With grant-based aid? We lose Fordham and replace them with Marist. Which one sounds like a better long-term strategy?

[DFW HOYA]

To summarize the issue choices:

1. Members are permitted to phase in 57-63 scholarships, consistent with NCAA regulations.
Winner: Fordham (gets what it wants)
Loser: Georgetown (PL's message: Start looking elsewhere...)

2. Members are permitted some number more than 30, but less than 57 scholarships.
Winners: Colgate and Lehigh (who become nationally competitive very quickly)
Losers: Fordham (probably goes elsewhere), Georgetown (still too wide a gap to stay competitive)

3. Members are permitted less than 30 scholarships, until further vote.
Winners: No one in particular
Losers: Fordham (starts looking for a new league on Tuesday)

4. Members must provide a minimum number of scholarships.
Winners: Fordham (already has them)
Losers: Georgetown (can't meet a minimum), Lafayette (doesn't want to)

5. Football scholarships remain inconsistent with league policy
Winners: No one in particular
Losers: Fordham (really, really out the door)

Georgetown isn't going to fare very well in almost any option, so maybe that's why it has received so little interest. But it goes back to something I've said before: the PL has to vote in its own interests, not that of either associate member.

[Go...gate]

To summarize the issue choices:

1. Members are permitted to phase in 57-63 scholarships, consistent with NCAA regulations.
Winner: Fordham (gets what it wants)
Loser: Georgetown (PL's message: Start looking elsewhere...)

2. Members are permitted some number more than 30, but less than 57 scholarships.
Winners: Colgate and Lehigh (who become nationally competitive very quickly)
Losers: Fordham (probably goes elsewhere), Georgetown (still too wide a gap to stay competitive)

3. Members are permitted less than 30 scholarships, until further vote.
Winners: No one in particular
Losers: Fordham (starts looking for a new league on Tuesday)

4. Members must provide a minimum number of scholarships.
Winners: Fordham (already has them)
Losers: Georgetown (can't meet a minimum), Lafayette (doesn't want to)

5. Football scholarships remain inconsistent with league policy
Winners: Marist, because the PL wil literally have nowhere else to turn
Losers: Fordham (really, really out the door)

Georgetown isn't going to fare very well in almost any option, so maybe that's why it has received so little interest. But it goes back to something I've said before: the PL has to vote in its own interests, not that of either associate member.

Made one revision.

[DFW HOYA]

Does Marist really want to join the PL? Georgetown spends $1.4 million and has been kicked around for ten straight years. Marist spends just over $760,000.

[Go...gate]

I am not sure Marist wants the PL. But they will be the only alternative out there, and seven football teams are not enough. Marist would give the PL seven football teams (since Fordham will be gone) and nine all-sports members, which gives the conference a decent base and chance to survive.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

To summarize the issue choices:

1. Members are permitted to phase in 57-63 scholarships, consistent with NCAA regulations.
Winner: Fordham (gets what it wants)
Loser: Georgetown (PL's message: Start looking elsewhere...)

2. Members are permitted some number more than 30, but less than 57 scholarships.
Winners: Colgate and Lehigh (who become nationally competitive very quickly)
Losers: Fordham (probably goes elsewhere), Georgetown (still too wide a gap to stay competitive)

3. Members are permitted less than 30 scholarships, until further vote.
Winners: No one in particular
Losers: Fordham (starts looking for a new league on Tuesday)

4. Members must provide a minimum number of scholarships.
Winners: Fordham (already has them)
Losers: Georgetown (can't meet a minimum), Lafayette (doesn't want to)

5. Football scholarships remain inconsistent with league policy
Winners: No one in particular
Losers: Fordham (really, really out the door)

Georgetown isn't going to fare very well in almost any option, so maybe that's why it has received so little interest. But it goes back to something I've said before: the PL has to vote in its own interests, not that of either associate member.

Georgetown seems mostly screwed regardless, unless the ruling is that teams have the option of 'up to' a certain number of scholarships, with no minimum, in which case G-town can continue without if they so desire, at the cost of being competitive in football (which, given the state of the facilities, they don't seem to really care about anyway). If Georgetown does feel forced out, where would they go? Would Georgetown sign on as a schollie-free PFL team, seek membership into a limited scholarship conference like the NEC, or just go scholarship free? The most logical solution for Georgetown would be an associate membership with the Ivy League for football only, but that makes too much sense and would ruffle too many feathers to actually ever happen.

If the decision doesn't go in Fordham's favor, where do they look to go? Given the recent turmoil in the northern reaches of the CAA, adding Fordham would make a ton of sense - it would appease Maine and UNH, and set the stage for the potential addition of Albany and/or Stony Brook to boost up the New England chunk of the conference.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown does care about its facilities but are financially hamstrung to do anything about it. After all, it has a Top 10 basketball program that does not even have its own facilities, either.

As to FB conferences, GU is not interested in the PFL, the NEC and/or independent is a future option, the Ivy is a great idea that isn't being offered, but would rather stay in the PL if at all possible. That may or may not be a long term option 48 hours from now.

I'm not convinced the CAA would automatically take Fordham, either. They could just as well follow Stony Brook into the Big South.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Georgetown does care about its facilities but are financially hamstrung to do anything about it. After all, it has a Top 10 basketball program that does not even have its own facilities, either.

As to FB conferences, GU is not interested in the PFL, the NEC and/or independent is a future option, the Ivy is a great idea that isn't being offered, but would rather stay in the PL if at all possible. That may or may not be a long term option 48 hours from now.

I'm not convinced the CAA would automatically take Fordham, either. They could just as well follow Stony Brook into the Big South.

What is the attendance like at GU basketball games? On another thread someone posted where 'Nova was floating the idea to make it a requirement to buy season tickets for football if you wanted season tickets for basketball, could Georgetown manage something like that? Given Georgetown's basketball success, I'm surprised there isn't enough money flowing into the athletics department to somehow make scholarships for football work.

As far as Fordham goes, the CAA would be incredibly shortsighted not to court them aggressively if they split from the PL. The CAA North teams are getting very restless, and the potential loss of Nova and UMass will almost inevitably lead to the loss of UNH and Maine if something isn't done to add members within reasonable travel distance for them.

[DFW HOYA]

What is the attendance like at GU basketball games? On another thread someone posted where 'Nova was floating the idea to make it a requirement to buy season tickets for football if you wanted season tickets for basketball, could Georgetown manage something like that? Given Georgetown's basketball success, I'm surprised there isn't enough money flowing into the athletics department to somehow make scholarships for football work.

Georgetown averages 12,500 a game for basketball, closer to 15,000 for Big East games. Unfortunately, Verizon Center has among the highest rental fees anywhere in the nation so a fair amount of the gate goes right back to them.

[Go...gate]

Georgetown averages 12,500 a game for basketball, closer to 15,000 for Big East games. Unfortunately, Verizon Center has among the highest rental fees anywhere in the nation so a fair amount of the gate goes right back to them.

How the heck can you guys maintain a viable BB program, much less FCS football?

[Go...gate]

Well, decision day is here.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well, decision day is here.

The PL calendar:


Mon.-Tues. Dec. 13-14 COUNCIL OF PRESIDENTS - Patriot League Office


Wednesday Dec. 15 INSTITUTIONAL PUBLIC RELATIONS DIRECTORS - Patriot League Office


Thursday Dec. 16 COMMITTEE ON ATHLETIC ADM. - Call


Monday Jan. 10 PRESIDENTIAL ADVISORY GROUP - Conference Call


So, it looks like the mouthpieces will get on the phone Wednesday to decide what sort of information is to be fed, and to whom.

[carney2]

Is anyone following the brouhaha on the Lafayette board over this? Summary:

Lafayette President Dan Weiss, in an interview with the student newspaper, lifted the cone of silence to state that he will vote "no" on scholarships.

He says that scholarships are not good for the Patriot League.

A gag order has been placed on all College personnel, with only the College's Communications Director empowered to speak. He is saying nothing.

Weiss feels that more "partnering" with the Ivy League is the answer here.

In an unbelievable comment, Weiss says that he has not consulted with the Board of Trustees on this issue.

The President of the Board of Trustees, who is certainly not pro-scholarship, has issued some statements that are counter to what Weiss has said.

There is a hint that NOW this issue will be given a thorough study.

There is word that the faculty will be rallying on the Quad today (Monday) to protest football scholarships. Unconfirmed reports state that non-tenured faculty are "required" to attend or should look for employment elsewhere.

And you all thought that it would be either Fordham or Georgetown in the toilet over this issue.