Patriot League Scholarships (Again)

[jimbo65]

Why would LC's president make his intentions public if he knew that a vote against scholarships was imminent? I obviously don't know for sure but I would think that a public statement of opposition would only be done if he knew scholarships were going to be implemented and he was going to be "forced" to go along ... or if it was a very, very close vote and he somehow thought that a public statement might rally support for his position at some schools who were undecided.

Who the heck knows but that's my read on it.
I had the same thought when reading the release. Also, the votes will likely be made public since this individual "shared" his position. Looks to me that he did what he did to make nice with the faculty and that though he will vote no, LaFayette will go to schollies. I hope.

[letsgopards04]

I had the same thought when reading the release. Also, the votes will likely be made public since this individual "shared" his position. Looks to me that he did what he did to make nice with the faculty and that though he will vote no, LaFayette will go to schollies. I hope.

For a school like Lafayette that thrives on alumni donations, Weiss is biting the hand that feeds him. Alumni want competitive football. Scholarships are the answer to field a team commensurate with the alumni provided facilities. I am sure that if Bourger knew the school would actively try to be non-competitive he would have found a better use for his money. Weiss cannot tout top-notch facilities if he is gonna put crap on the field.

[letsgopards04]

Is anyone following the brouhaha on the Lafayette board over this? Summary:

Lafayette President Dan Weiss, in an interview with the student newspaper, lifted the cone of silence to state that he will vote "no" on scholarships.

He says that scholarships are not good for the Patriot League.

A gag order has been placed on all College personnel, with only the College's Communications Director empowered to speak. He is saying nothing.

Weiss feels that more "partnering" with the Ivy League is the answer here.

In an unbelievable comment, Weiss says that he has not consulted with the Board of Trustees on this issue.

The President of the Board of Trustees, who is certainly not pro-scholarship, has issued some statements that are counter to what Weiss has said.

There is a hint that NOW this issue will be given a thorough study.

There is word that the faculty will be rallying on the Quad today (Monday) to protest football scholarships. Unconfirmed reports state that non-tenured faculty are "required" to attend or should look for employment elsewhere.

And you all thought that it would be either Fordham or Georgetown in the toilet over this issue.

Faculty can be so naive and ignorant. Do they not realize that a successful football team brings money in for their projects? Do they not see that as long as the AI remains, the student quality will not diminish? The point re: non-tenured faculty is just plain extortion.

[Franks Tanks]

Faculty can be so naive and ignorant. Do they not realize that a successful football team brings money in for their projects? Do they not see that as long as the AI remains, the student quality will not diminish? The point re: non-tenured faculty is just plain extortion.

Scholarships bring better players and better students. What is wrong with that?

[maristdb89]

I am not sure Marist wants the PL. But they will be the only alternative out there, and seven football teams are not enough. Marist would give the PL seven football teams (since Fordham will be gone) and nine all-sports members, which gives the conference a decent base and chance to survive.

To your and DFW's comments, full membership in the PL is attractive, but it is fully understood that it would require significant investment in resources to be competitive in FB. At present for FB, Marist is happy with the PFL, but all options are on the table. If the PL goes to scholarships (in any form) I suspect Marist wouldn't be interested.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've made a lot of comments about this - and if it is true that the Lafayette faculty will be armed with torches and pitchforks this afternoon - I'm sure I'll be weighing in on my blog later today. (Quiet period? What quiet period?)

But I wanted to add some important context to carney's summary of the issue.


Is anyone following the brouhaha on the Lafayette board over this? Summary:

Lafayette President Dan Weiss, in an interview with the student newspaper, lifted the cone of silence to state that he will vote "no" on scholarships.

He says that scholarships are not good for the Patriot League.

While it seems like the Lafayette school newspaper has been a conduit for important Patriot League news from Lafayette in the past, Weiss basically ignored two sets of beat reporters on this - the Express-Times, and Paul Reinhard, the Morning Call's columnist emeritus that has written countless positive articles about Lafayette athletics. Not including them in this gigantic news caused Paul to post an open letter to Weiss (http://blogs.mcall.com/sports/2010/12/an-open-letter-to-daniel-weiss.html), issuing a scathing critique of his choice to leak the issue to the student paper and to, essentially, slap the face of wealthy donors and current Lafayette football players.


A gag order has been placed on all College personnel, with only the College's Communications Director empowered to speak. He is saying nothing.

Clow has done nothing to make Weiss' statements in the student newspaper clearer. The quote that Weiss made that really worries me is: "The College is very supportive of the Patriot League, but what specific actions we will take in light of this vote is not clear." It can be taken as "if the league sponsors football scholarships, we'll have to scrimp and bring up fundraising to get them" - but it can also be taken as, "if the league sponsors football scholarships, we're leaving the Patriot League." I cannot for the life of me decide what he means - the former or the latter.


Weiss feels that more "partnering" with the Ivy League is the answer here.

My blog posting (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/LehighFootballNation/~3/NX2yZj1tVgw/breaking-news-lafayette-to-vote-no-on.html) exposes how empty and vision-less this answer really is.


In an unbelievable comment, Weiss says that he has not consulted with the Board of Trustees on this issue.

The President of the Board of Trustees, who is certainly not pro-scholarship, has issued some statements that are counter to what Weiss has said.

There is a hint that NOW this issue will be given a thorough study.

The real hero piece of the Laf's student newspaper report was the exposure of the fact that the BOT was not consulted on this once-in-a-decade type of issue - that Weiss, like some sort of royalty, proclaimed his recommendation from on high and basically said "make it so". carney seems to think that some sort of study is now forthcoming, but IMO the statements have been more contradictory; on the one hand, it seems like the decision is made and that "it's been discussed top to bottom", but then it seems like "more needs to be discussed".


There is word that the faculty will be rallying on the Quad today (Monday) to protest football scholarships. Unconfirmed reports state that non-tenured faculty are "required" to attend or should look for employment elsewhere.

And you all thought that it would be either Fordham or Georgetown in the toilet over this issue.

Could this actually be true? As carney points out at the Forum, "there are no smiley faces" pointing to this being some sort of joke.

*****

To add just one more thought here: Honestly, I have no problem if Weiss wants to vote against scholarships. But he could have done so quietly, without fanfare and - if true - protests.

He's done so in such a ham-fisted, autocratic way that is incredibly confusing, and destructive. It would be tragi-comedy if it wasn't so serious a threat to the conference I really love.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've made a lot of comments about this - and if it is true that the Lafayette faculty will be armed with torches and pitchforks this afternoon - I'm sure I'll be weighing in on my blog later today. (Quiet period? What quiet period?)

But I wanted to add some important context to carney's summary of the issue.


Is anyone following the brouhaha on the Lafayette board over this? Summary:

Lafayette President Dan Weiss, in an interview with the student newspaper, lifted the cone of silence to state that he will vote "no" on scholarships.

He says that scholarships are not good for the Patriot League.

While it seems like the Lafayette school newspaper has been a conduit for important Patriot League news from Lafayette in the past, Weiss basically ignored two sets of beat reporters on this - the Express-Times, and Paul Reinhard, the Morning Call's columnist emeritus that has written countless positive articles about Lafayette athletics. Not including them in this gigantic news caused Paul to post an open letter to Weiss (http://blogs.mcall.com/sports/2010/12/an-open-letter-to-daniel-weiss.html), issuing a scathing critique of his choice to leak the issue to the student paper and to, essentially, slap the face of wealthy donors and current Lafayette football players.


A gag order has been placed on all College personnel, with only the College's Communications Director empowered to speak. He is saying nothing.

Clow has done nothing to make Weiss' statements in the student newspaper clearer. The quote that Weiss made that really worries me is: "The College is very supportive of the Patriot League, but what specific actions we will take in light of this vote is not clear." It can be taken as "if the league sponsors football scholarships, we'll have to scrimp and bring up fundraising to get them" - but it can also be taken as, "if the league sponsors football scholarships, we're leaving the Patriot League." I cannot for the life of me decide what he means - the former or the latter.


Weiss feels that more "partnering" with the Ivy League is the answer here.

My blog posting (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/LehighFootballNation/~3/NX2yZj1tVgw/breaking-news-lafayette-to-vote-no-on.html) exposes how empty and vision-less this answer really is.


In an unbelievable comment, Weiss says that he has not consulted with the Board of Trustees on this issue.

The President of the Board of Trustees, who is certainly not pro-scholarship, has issued some statements that are counter to what Weiss has said.

There is a hint that NOW this issue will be given a thorough study.

The real hero piece of the Laf's student newspaper report was the exposure of the fact that the BOT was not consulted on this once-in-a-decade type of issue - that Weiss, like some sort of royalty, proclaimed his recommendation from on high and basically said "make it so". carney seems to think that some sort of study is now forthcoming, but IMO the statements have been more contradictory; on the one hand, it seems like the decision is made and that "it's been discussed top to bottom", but then it seems like "more needs to be discussed".


There is word that the faculty will be rallying on the Quad today (Monday) to protest football scholarships. Unconfirmed reports state that non-tenured faculty are "required" to attend or should look for employment elsewhere.

And you all thought that it would be either Fordham or Georgetown in the toilet over this issue.

Could this actually be true? As carney points out at the Forum, "there are no smiley faces" pointing to this being some sort of joke.

*****

To add just one more thought here: Honestly, I have no problem if Weiss wants to vote against scholarships. But he could have done so quietly, without fanfare and - if true - protests.

He's done so in such a ham-fisted, autocratic way that is incredibly confusing, and destructive. It would be tragi-comedy if it wasn't so serious a threat to the conference I really love.

[RichH2]

xviolinxTICK TOCK TICK TOCK

What can PL presidents talk about for 2 whole days of meetings? I suppose it would be naive to think that PL wll make any interim announcements. As posted by Bogie ( Ithink) we'll just have to wait until we see either white or black smoke.xconfusedx

[Go...gate]

Is anyone following the brouhaha on the Lafayette board over this? Summary:

Lafayette President Dan Weiss, in an interview with the student newspaper, lifted the cone of silence to state that he will vote "no" on scholarships.

He says that scholarships are not good for the Patriot League.

A gag order has been placed on all College personnel, with only the College's Communications Director empowered to speak. He is saying nothing.

Weiss feels that more "partnering" with the Ivy League is the answer here.

In an unbelievable comment, Weiss says that he has not consulted with the Board of Trustees on this issue.

The President of the Board of Trustees, who is certainly not pro-scholarship, has issued some statements that are counter to what Weiss has said.

There is a hint that NOW this issue will be given a thorough study.

There is word that the faculty will be rallying on the Quad today (Monday) to protest football scholarships. Unconfirmed reports state that non-tenured faculty are "required" to attend or should look for employment elsewhere.

And you all thought that it would be either Fordham or Georgetown in the toilet over this issue.

It is possible that Weiss just sat on this and thought it would go away? College administrators have been known to do this.

[Go...gate]

I've made a lot of comments about this - and if it is true that the Lafayette faculty will be armed with torches and pitchforks this afternoon - I'm sure I'll be weighing in on my blog later today. (Quiet period? What quiet period?)

But I wanted to add some important context to carney's summary of the issue.



While it seems like the Lafayette school newspaper has been a conduit for important Patriot League news from Lafayette in the past, Weiss basically ignored two sets of beat reporters on this - the Express-Times, and Paul Reinhard, the Morning Call's columnist emeritus that has written countless positive articles about Lafayette athletics. Not including them in this gigantic news caused Paul to post an open letter to Weiss (http://blogs.mcall.com/sports/2010/12/an-open-letter-to-daniel-weiss.html), issuing a scathing critique of his choice to leak the issue to the student paper and to, essentially, slap the face of wealthy donors and current Lafayette football players.



Clow has done nothing to make Weiss' statements in the student newspaper clearer. The quote that Weiss made that really worries me is: "The College is very supportive of the Patriot League, but what specific actions we will take in light of this vote is not clear." It can be taken as "if the league sponsors football scholarships, we'll have to scrimp and bring up fundraising to get them" - but it can also be taken as, "if the league sponsors football scholarships, we're leaving the Patriot League." I cannot for the life of me decide what he means - the former or the latter.



My blog posting (http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/LehighFootballNation/~3/NX2yZj1tVgw/breaking-news-lafayette-to-vote-no-on.html) exposes how empty and vision-less this answer really is.



The real hero piece of the Laf's student newspaper report was the exposure of the fact that the BOT was not consulted on this once-in-a-decade type of issue - that Weiss, like some sort of royalty, proclaimed his recommendation from on high and basically said "make it so". carney seems to think that some sort of study is now forthcoming, but IMO the statements have been more contradictory; on the one hand, it seems like the decision is made and that "it's been discussed top to bottom", but then it seems like "more needs to be discussed".



Could this actually be true? As carney points out at the Forum, "there are no smiley faces" pointing to this being some sort of joke.

*****

To add just one more thought here: Honestly, I have no problem if Weiss wants to vote against scholarships. But he could have done so quietly, without fanfare and - if true - protests.

He's done so in such a ham-fisted, autocratic way that is incredibly confusing, and destructive. It would be tragi-comedy if it wasn't so serious a threat to the conference I really love.

I'm glad to hear that somebody else thinks highly of our fine conference. I've been around since long before its inception and, IMO, it has served us well, even with all of the problems that have arisen over the years. It bothers me greatly to see all this garbage going on.

[TheValleyRaider]

There is word that the faculty will be rallying on the Quad today (Monday) to protest football scholarships. Unconfirmed reports state that non-tenured faculty are "required" to attend or should look for employment elsewhere.

Nothing like a bunch of aged radicals reliving the 60s xlolx

I certainly would be burnishing my CV at this point. Sometimes I wonder about this profession.... xdohx

[Go...gate]

Nothing like a bunch of aged radicals reliving the 60s xlolx

I certainly would be burnishing my CV at this point. Sometimes I wonder about this profession.... xdohx

I hear you. When I'm not practicing law, I'm an adjunct at Rutgers and everybody in New Brunswick is sure watching their backsides right now - even Greg Schiano.

[Franks Tanks]

It is really cold today in PA. The profs probably called off the protest on account of that!

[Go...gate]

Another thing about this is that Weiss' actions make the whole conference look bad. We're not the SEC, for Pete's sake!

[Franks Tanks]

Another thing about this is that Weiss' actions make the whole conference look bad. We're not the SEC, for Pete's sake!

Weiss is setting himself up for failure as he will not survive a power struggle will our influential alums. See ya later Danny boy.

[TheValleyRaider]

Weiss is setting himself up for failure as he will not survive a power struggle will our influential alums. See ya later Danny boy.

Certainly not consulting with the BOT (if he really did that) might have already sealed his fate

Unless they honestly gave him carte blanche to do what he felt was right, I can't believe he could survive making a serious financial and philosophical decision like this without their input

Something is missing in that story, I think....

[Franks Tanks]

Certainly not consulting with the BOT (if he really did that) might have already sealed his fate

Unless they honestly gave him carte blanche to do what he felt was right, I can't believe he could survive making a serious financial and philosophical decision like this without their input

Something is missing in that story, I think....

The chairman of our BOT seemed surpised that the decision was made without their input. I don't think Dan was granted anything.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The chairman of our BOT seemed surprised that the decision was made without their input. I don't think Dan was granted anything.

By the same token, the BOT certainly knew this vote was coming up. They could have been more proactive if they wanted to have input.

[Go...gate]

Not too many College Presidents ignore their Boards without risking their jobs.

[Franks Tanks]

By the same token, the BOT certainly knew this vote was coming up. They could have been more proactive if they wanted to have input.


Very true. It appears everyone was standing around with their hands in their pockets as usual.

[CrusaderBob]

Certainly not consulting with the BOT (if he really did that) might have already sealed his fate

Unless they honestly gave him carte blanche to do what he felt was right, I can't believe he could survive making a serious financial and philosophical decision like this without their input

Something is missing in that story, I think....

While I understand the importance of the decision and know a lot more is behind this particular decision and so Board consultation is absolutely called for, in a weird way if you think about it ....

... does a College President need the BOT's authorization to cast a vote to NOT spend money and NOT change policy??? xeyebrowx

Hmmmmm. xsmiley_wix

[Go...gate]

Point well taken, CrusaderBob.

[DFW HOYA]

Not too many College Presidents ignore their Boards without risking their jobs.

Varies by school. Some are governing boards, others set policy and approve funding.

For others, a conference vote may not even meet the threshold of board involvement. (Put another way, I don't think Georgetown's board of directors met over this.)

[Bogus Megapardus]

While I understand the importance of the decision and know a lot more is behind this particular decision and so Board consultation is absolutely called for, in a weird way if you think about it ....

... does a College President need the BOT's authorization to cast a vote to NOT spend money and NOT change policy??? xeyebrowx

Hmmmmm. xsmiley_wix


Varies by school. Some are governing boards, others set policy and approve funding.

For others, a conference vote may not even meet the threshold of board involvement. (Put another way, I don't think Georgetown's board of directors met over this.)

I think a college president would need approval from the Board if the effect of the president's vote means, potentially, that the college no longer will be eligible to participate in the athletic conference that the college helped to create. If, for example, Columbia University's president decided to drop its sports programs to Division III, thus saving a ton of cash but making Columbia no longer eligible to be a member of the Ivy League, do you think that would go over well with Columbia's Board?

As for Georgetown's Board having no inclination to be bothered with trivialities such as the Patriot League or Georgetown football, well, all I can say is - it shows. Lafayette, on the other hand, has an unbroken football tradition that helps enhance the stature of what otherwise might be just another tiny private college. Members of Lafayette's Board historically have demonstrated their interest with their wallets, so I'd think they'd want a say in this.

[Go...gate]

Bogus, it seems to me that you just hit it - at the end of the day, LC's Prexy is a fiduciary. Not a small amount of duty involved there. He can't get too far out on hos own....

[DFW HOYA]

As for Georgetown's Board having no inclination to be bothered with trivialities such as the Patriot League or Georgetown football, well, all I can say is - it shows.

On the contrary, it means they trust their president can exercise sound judgment and make decisions in the best interest of the University. And it's not like the annual Big East votes (such as adding TCU, for example) are managed from the board, either.

Notwithstanding, this vote is not about LC leaving the Patriot League, and the board can still authorize scholarships should the vote be favorable, regardless of past statements by Mr. Weiss. Now if Weiss became the deciding vote, that's another story...

[CrusaderBob]

Before anyone from Lafayette gets too worked up, I call you attention to the portion of my post which says


Board consultation is absolutely called for

[Go...gate]

Weiss reminds me of those law firm partners who serve on the Partnership/Compensation Committees - completely out of touch with the real world.

[carney2]

There are hints - and only hints - to the contrary, but I remind you that a "no" vote on scholarships does not necessarily mean that scholarships will not be implemented should this provision pass at the League presidents meeting. It also does not mean that Lafayette will not fund them to the max.

I must admit that the preceding is more or less wishful thinking on my part because I have been convinced since late summer that Lafayette will find a way to screw the pooch here. It will be the same as basketball scholarships, only different. This will be an exercise in creative idiocy.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Notwithstanding, this vote is not about LC leaving the Patriot League, and the board can still authorize scholarships should the vote be favorable, regardless of past statements by Mr. Weiss. Now if Weiss became the deciding vote, that's another story...

After reading what you said about six times, I see what you mean. You are correct that the LC board could authorize football scholarships sometime in the future if the other presidents allow them. But Weiss' public stance on the matter is worth an awful lot of votes in practice in terms of implementation, I have to believe. If despite that fact the BOT were to vote scholarships in regardless of Weiss' stance, Weiss had better be checking the want ads the next day.

But I question your assertion that this is not about LC potentially leaving the Patriot League. Weiss' vague statement did not start out by saying "We're happy in the Patriot League". It didn't say, "We reaffirm the common goals of LC and the Patriot League". It said "The College is very supportive of the Patriot League, but what specific actions we will take in light of this vote is not clear."

"Support" is not the same as "we are a part of". I might be the only one, but I see a specific action that Lafayette might be contemplating is to leave the Patriot League.

Believe me, I hope you're right and I'm wrong on this.

[heath]

send Weiss and the Leopards to the PFL if thats what he wants.Time for Lafayette to make a decision.

[carney2]

After reading what you said about six times, I see what you mean. You are correct that the LC board could authorize football scholarships sometime in the future if the other presidents allow them. But Weiss' public stance on the matter is worth an awful lot of votes in practice in terms of implementation, I have to believe. If despite that fact the BOT were to vote scholarships in regardless of Weiss' stance, Weiss had better be checking the want ads the next day.

But I question your assertion that this is not about LC potentially leaving the Patriot League. Weiss' vague statement did not start out by saying "We're happy in the Patriot League". It didn't say, "We reaffirm the common goals of LC and the Patriot League". It said "The College is very supportive of the Patriot League, but what specific actions we will take in light of this vote is not clear."

"Support" is not the same as "we are a part of". I might be the only one, but I see a specific action that Lafayette might be contemplating is to leave the Patriot League.

Believe me, I hope you're right and I'm wrong on this.

You're wrong. No movement in that direction at this time.

On a more immediate note, there was no faculty demonstration against scholarships at Lafayette. Just another case of the information starved rats (us) grabbing any small piece of anything that looks like cheese and gobbling it down. I spoke to a member of the faculty and they appear to be dead set against scholarships - and its almost entirely rooted in ideological naivete. No one is going to change their minds.

[ngineer]

I agree there may be too much read in Weiss's statements. FINAL decision for any change in policy must be with BOT. So Weiss, can actually have good 'cover' with the unruly Laugheyette faculty and "blame it" (scholarships) on the BOT, should it come to that.

[Go...gate]

send Weiss and the Leopards to the PFL if thats what he wants.Time for Lafayette to make a decision.

Indeed, time for all of us to make a decision.

[Go...gate]

Well we made the 12/14 NY Times.

Some pretty wild rumors on the Fordham board.

[letsgopards04]

Scholarships bring better players and better students. What is wrong with that?

Oh I concur.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Well we made the 12/14 NY Times.


The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/14/sports/ncaafootball/14scholarships.html?_r=1&ref=sports):


At the heart of the discussion will be a couple of age-old collegiate athletic questions: How big-time do Lafayette and Lehigh and their fellow league members want to become? And how much are they willing to pay for it?


We thank Times writer Joe Drape for placing the names of the institutions in the correct order and finally settling the debate. Once and for all, Fountain Pigeons, you're doing it wrong. xnodx

[Franks Tanks]

send Weiss and the Leopards to the PFL if thats what he wants.Time for Lafayette to make a decision.

Weiss doesn't want the Pioneer league. He wants the status quo. Ultimately it doesn't matter what what he wants as he will be out on his *** before Lafayette is forced to leave the league.

[Bogus Megapardus]

DaveR on the Lafayette board asks:


The League Policy and Procedures Manual states (on p. 47):

"Amendments to the Operational bylaws must be adopted by a majority vote of all member institutions, not only those present at a meeting of the Council of Presidents."

Does this mean if any member abstains (e.g. Navy, Army, American) it is effectively a 'NO' vote?

I believe DaveR is correct. The league has eight members and two associates for a total of ten. That means the measure requires six votes to pass. If Navy, Army or American abstain, that's the same as a "No" vote. No way to weasel out of it.

Which seems fitting for Army and Navy, in any event. Just not their style to be "weaseling out" of anything.

[Sader87]

Well we made the 12/14 NY Times.

Some pretty wild rumors on the Fordham board.


....and the Old Gray Lady joins the rest of the media ranks out there mislabelling HC as a university. xcoffeex

[DFW HOYA]

The league has eight members and two associates for a total of ten. That means the measure requires six votes to pass. If Navy, Army or American abstain, that's the same as a "No" vote. No way to weasel out of it.


That may be an issue. The league can't move forward solely on the academy's votes they need consensus (read=5 of 7) from the schools to move forward. A 6-4 vote with Army and Navy tipping the balance could really be problematic.

Meanwhile, the author's flippant observation that Georgetown's commitment to football is "shaky" because basketball spends more than football does will be addressed in due time.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Actually the league has a third associate, MIT, but it is neither a full member nor does it play football in the league, so it would appear that MIT does not get a vote under the by-laws (although its president probably is at the meeting). Could you imagine how an MIT vote would tip the scales, though?

[Franks Tanks]

Actually the league has a third associate, MIT, but it is neither a full member nor does it play football in the league, so it would appear that MIT does not get a vote under the by-laws (although its president probably is at the meeting). Could you imagine how an MIT vote would tip the scales, though?

What sport does MIT play in the PL? Squash?

[Bogus Megapardus]

What sport does MIT play in the PL? Squash?

Rowing.

[Go...gate]

That may be an issue. The league can't move forward solely on the academy's votes they need consensus (read=5 of 7) from the schools to move forward. A 6-4 vote with Army and Navy tipping the balance could really be problematic.

Meanwhile, the author's flippant observation that Georgetown's commitment to football is "shaky" because basketball spends more than football does will be addressed in due time.

From your lips to God's ears....

[Fordham]

To summarize the issue choices:

1. Members are permitted to phase in 57-63 scholarships, consistent with NCAA regulations.
Winner: Fordham (gets what it wants)
Loser: Georgetown (PL's message: Start looking elsewhere...)

2. Members are permitted some number more than 30, but less than 57 scholarships.
Winners: Colgate and Lehigh (who become nationally competitive very quickly)
Losers: Fordham (probably goes elsewhere), Georgetown (still too wide a gap to stay competitive)

3. Members are permitted less than 30 scholarships, until further vote.
Winners: No one in particular
Losers: Fordham (starts looking for a new league on Tuesday)

4. Members must provide a minimum number of scholarships.
Winners: Fordham (already has them)
Losers: Georgetown (can't meet a minimum), Lafayette (doesn't want to)

5. Football scholarships remain inconsistent with league policy
Winners: No one in particular
Losers: Fordham (really, really out the door)

Georgetown isn't going to fare very well in almost any option, so maybe that's why it has received so little interest. But it goes back to something I've said before: the PL has to vote in its own interests, not that of either associate member.

Why can't one of the options be that each school is allowed to do what it wants? In a world of imperfect options, that's the one that makes the most sense to me since it's the closest thing to buying time other than saying that they postponed the meeting until next year.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Why can't one of the options be that each school is allowed to do what it wants? In a world of imperfect options, that's the one that makes the most sense to me since it's the closest thing to buying time other than saying that they postponed the meeting until next year.

That's the "smoke 'em if ya got 'em" option - which is one of the original options in the Lafayette board poll. So far, 23% of responders believe that's the way it will go.

http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/about1354.html (http://lafayettesports.myfreeforum.org/about1354.html)

[DFW HOYA]

Why can't one of the options be that each school is allowed to do what it wants? In a world of imperfect options, that's the one that makes the most sense to me since it's the closest thing to buying time other than saying that they postponed the meeting until next year.

You can't run a league where someone is at 60 and someone is at zero. It's akin to the days when the Big 8 had 85 scholarships but let Kansas State muddle by with 47. From 1955 through 1990 (36 seasons), KSU had two winning seasons at 6-5 and had 16 seasons of two or fewer wins.

[Franks Tanks]

You can't run a league where someone is at 60 and someone is at zero. It's akin to the days when the Big 8 had 85 scholarships but let Kansas State muddle by with 47. The Wildcats were killed nearly every week.

Back then the day (mid 70's) the Sooners had 200 scholarship players on the roster according to Barry Switzer. 63 vs. zero may be just as ugly.

[Model Citizen]

Zero? Really?

[Fordham]

You can't run a league where someone is at 60 and someone is at zero. It's akin to the days when the Big 8 had 85 scholarships but let Kansas State muddle by with 47. From 1955 through 1990 (36 seasons), KSU had two winning seasons at 6-5 and had 16 seasons of two or fewer wins.
you certainly can for a two-three year period.

*with the AI in place, scholarships are a nice bump up but not the panacea some have argued for. The spread between G-town and others will grow imo but it won't be substantially over where it is today in the next 2 years.

*I think it buys the league time to see if a full scholarship PL holds interest for any schools out there who are currently in other leagues but have chosen not to go PL over the aid issue.

*It would also allow LC to determine whether or not ... or how ... to fund any scholarships for football instead of making them figure that out today. Same holds true for Gtown but from your posts here it sounds like there's not much hope for any increased funding.

Is it perfect? No where near to it. Imo it's the best option in a world of imperfect ones.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

*with the AI in place, scholarships are a nice bump up but not the panacea some have argued for. The spread between G-town and others will grow imo but it won't be substantially over where it is today in the next 2 years.

Shouldn't this game (http://www.fordhamsports.com/sports/m-footbl/recaps/103010aaa.html) speak volumes?


After the Fordham offense went three and out, Georgetown took over on its own 31 and moved to the Fordham 12 where the Rams were whistled for a pass interference penalty, giving the Hoyas a first and goal from the two. Two plays later Darby took it in but his two point conversion pass failed and Georgetown trailed 24-19 with 8:01 remaining in the game.

The Rams moved down to the Georgetown 36 where they faced a fourth and one and Masella decided to go for it but Whiting was stopped in the backfield and the ball was turned back over to the Hoyas with 3:12 left.

Georgetown drove to the Fordham 47 where McGee halted the drive with his sack of Darby on fourth and eight.

Fordham had some scholarship players, and a lot of guys getting the full amount of aid through need-based aid. Georgetown, by any measure had many fewer players getting aid. They were in position to win the game, on the road. You can't spin this game in any way as a mismatch.

[DFW HOYA]

Fordham had some scholarship players, and a lot of guys getting the full amount of aid through need-based aid. Georgetown, by any measure had many fewer players getting aid. They were in position to win the game, on the road. You can't spin this game in any way as a mismatch.

Not a mismatch, but to be fair to Fordham, it had only one scholarship player starting and six in the two-deep. When Georgetown returns to Rose Hill in 2012, at least 45 of the Rams will be on full scholarship, and that has to be a concern for all the teams in this vote.

[van]

Why can't one of the options be that each school is allowed to do what it wants? In a world of imperfect options, that's the one that makes the most sense to me since it's the closest thing to buying time other than saying that they postponed the meeting until next year.

According to DFW, we are nearly there now with the very few equivalents at G town right now. Of course that does show up in the W/L.

[Go...gate]

According to DFW, we are nearly there now with the very few equivalents at G town right now. Of course that does show up in the W/L.

You did much better this year, though.

[ngineer]

Crew.

Fixed it for ya. We must be grammatically correct, ya' know...xsmiley_wix

[ngineer]

The "smoke 'em if ya gottem" option may make sense soley as a buying time ploy. It would certainly force some BOTs to take action if others make the move. Weiss sounds like he just wants to suck the IL's hind tit and be happy that he can associate with them.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The vote could shake up the A10 as well if Fordham bolts. This whole thing is a mess. Who knows, maybe Richmond gets involved.

The face of D1 athletics is going to change one way or another. If the league does break-up, even a little, there will be a ripple effect.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

The vote could shake up the A10 as well if Fordham bolts. This whole this is a mess. Who knows, maybe Richmond gets involved.

The face of D1 athletics is going to change one or way or another. If the league does break-up, even a little, there will be a ripple effect.

The A10 is a good basketball conference, I don't see Fordham leaving the A-10 for b-ball if they leave the PL for football. The renewal of A-10 football is also a longshot given the current membership - Fordham wants full scholarships, and of the other current schools in the A-10 that play football you have Dayton, which has no football schollies, Duquesne, which plays in the limited scholarship NEC, and Rhody, who just announced they are leaving the CAA because they don't want to support the full 63 scholarships anymore. At the other extreme there is Richmond, whose happy in the CAA and is making no overtures to downgrade the level of play, UMass, who if anything wants to move up to FBS, and Temple, which is already FBS. Future football school UNC-C is already talking about a FBS jump and they haven't even started their program yet, but is likely to be a candidate for CAA or SoCon membership when they start at the FCS level.

To make A-10 football work the conference would have to add a bunch of football affiliates while current full members play football in other conferences, which doesn't seem likely. The A-10 is very interesting right now due to the fact that it has members playing football in five different conferences - CAA (UMass and Richmond), NEC (Duquesne and soon URI), Pioneer (Dayton), MAC (Temple), and Patriot (Fordham). I can't think of any other conference that has members with such a wide spread of affiliate memberships.

If the Big East splits, the non football schools may end up grabbing some of the A-10 non-football schools to make one or two new mid-major hoops conferences, but that's also likely a longshot.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Hen, glad you made sense out of my pre-edited version. I've been trying to make sense of this whole thing and it's given me a headache.

I could see a situation where Fordham jumps to the CAA in all sports. It wouldn't be a bad alternative for the Rams. Their ability to compete in the A10 in hamstrung until they upgrade their facilities.

[jimbo65]

the following was posted on the Fordham Board. Two of the major LaFayette contributors are at odds with Weiss. Sounds encouraging.
http://www.mcall.com/sports/football/mc-lafayette-scholarships-20101215,0,2451469.story

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Rappolt, a former vice chairman of the finance committee at Lafayette, said, "I've run the numbers and talked to various people around the school. There's no doubt it will cost us money because of Title IX. By my own estimate, given the public numbers, it will probably cost us about $1.3 or $1.4 million to do this. But in a budget of $140 million, [I]if you can't find 1 percent of that budget to get this done in some way, I think we're making a huge mistake."

Wow.

[DFW HOYA]

"Rappolt said, "I had heard about a month and a half ago that there was a compromise on the table. It was 48 to start with and each school would be given the right to get up to the 63 if they so wished, but they could take their time in getting up there. Apparently, even Georgetown accepted that, but I find that hard to believe."

I find that hard to believe as well.

[Doc QB]

From Mcall article:"One-third of the Marquis Society donors, who give a thousand dollars or more a year, were also donors to the Maroon Club [which raises funds for athletics]," he said Tuesday. "I said, 'You're going to risk 33 percent of your donor pool for this? Even if you lose half of them, it's a total disaster.'

That IS a lot of people/donors to pi$$ off. And as has been stated many times here, former athletes and athletic supporter/family/parents will always be a significant population of donor pool.

[Pard4Life]

An interesting response from Lafayette's facebook page asking for commentary on the issue... And, if we count the BCS money game, it is going to be less than $1.4 million!

...

Vote Yes! As the sports editor of the Lafayette five years ago, I have already seen this argument up close as it pertains to basketball. And like five years ago, this is an argument based on beliefs and philosophy.

The fact is that financial aid is provided to football already. Currently, a student-athlete can receive a combination of grants and aid covering demonstrated financial need. If you have the means to pay, you pay. However, with scholarships, a student-athlete is automatically granted the full aid regardless of the ability to pay. What does this do? It expands the pool of student-athletes to be selected by Lafayette solely by their skills and not their skills AND their ability to pay. Football already awards the equivalent of 40-something "full scholarships" through the current aid structure. Why not expand this to be solely a merit based selection instead of an ability to pay?

We are not talking about all 80-something players on scholarship like Ohio State or Penn State. We are talking about a limited system, which the other schools like Colgate, Lehigh, and Fordham want. And like our current four scholarship sports, Men's and Women's Basketball, Field Hockey, and Men's Soccer, we are going to have academic requirements. THIS is where our College's mission upholds the integrity of the whole process. If you are not qualified academically, you cannot play here, even if the next Tom Brady wants to play for the Leopards.

The issue of course is resources. If Lafayette grants football scholarships, we would have to grant equal scholarships for women's sports. We did that last time by having men's and women's basketball and field hockey and men's soccer balance each other. Now, we would see more funds for women sports, which as the Lafayette pointed out, is underfunded.

A major benefit from having a scholarship football team is that we would be allowed to play big teams, like Rutgers or Penn State, once a year. For playing these teams, Lafayette receives money, around $1 million from teams mentioned above. This would help fund the athletics program and ALL sports, and maybe even "pay for" the football scholarships.

What about the Ivy League? The Ivy and Patriot League is not a fair comparison. Schools like Harvard and Princeton have such deep resources that their current athletes are practically scholarship players because the threshold for receiving aid is so low for all students. They have a much larger pool of talent to select from than we do. And, I do not have all the facts on this one, but I believe that the qualifying academic criteria for student-athletes at Lafayette and other Patriot schools is more stringent than some Ivy's. But yes, the Ivy League does not give scholarships (wink-wink). And that leaves the Patriot League.

And what about athletics' standing at the College? Well, athletics SHOULD BE a core mission of the College, CONSISTENT with our academic ideals. We are almost there too; 97% of our student athletes graduate. Why should athletics and academics be mutually exclusive? Why are we judging that athletic ability is not a virtue that should be rewarded and added to the diversity of the campus any more than a physics prodigy, outstanding stage performer, premier vocalist, or brilliant engineer? Do colleges reward and celebrate these talents at all? Yes, they are Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, and Northwestern to name a few. We have excellent students who are some of the best in their respective endeavors, so why not add athletics to that mix?

Lafayette is not the size of a Stanford and never will be, which is why granting athletic scholarships will make the Patriot League schools unique. We would be able to offer a top quality education, in an intimate atmosphere, and have the ability to compete with the best on a consistent basis.

And yes, Lehigh is leaning towards "yes" as I understand. So if we do nothing, we will fall behind Lehigh. Who will tolerate that around here?

[letsgopards04]

That response is fantastic Pard. Lafayette is run by adults who should be able to do two things at once - run a quality academic college and have a successful sports program.

[van]

An interesting response from Lafayette's facebook page asking for commentary on the issue... And, if we count the BCS money game, it is going to be less than $1.4 million!

...

Vote Yes! As the sports editor of the Lafayette five years ago, I have already seen this argument up close as it pertains to basketball. And like five years ago, this is an argument based on beliefs and philosophy.

The fact is that financial aid is provided to football already. Currently, a student-athlete can receive a combination of grants and aid covering demonstrated financial need. If you have the means to pay, you pay. However, with scholarships, a student-athlete is automatically granted the full aid regardless of the ability to pay. What does this do? It expands the pool of student-athletes to be selected by Lafayette solely by their skills and not their skills AND their ability to pay. Football already awards the equivalent of 40-something "full scholarships" through the current aid structure. Why not expand this to be solely a merit based selection instead of an ability to pay?

We are not talking about all 80-something players on scholarship like Ohio State or Penn State. We are talking about a limited system, which the other schools like Colgate, Lehigh, and Fordham want. And like our current four scholarship sports, Men's and Women's Basketball, Field Hockey, and Men's Soccer, we are going to have academic requirements. THIS is where our College's mission upholds the integrity of the whole process. If you are not qualified academically, you cannot play here, even if the next Tom Brady wants to play for the Leopards.

The issue of course is resources. If Lafayette grants football scholarships, we would have to grant equal scholarships for women's sports. We did that last time by having men's and women's basketball and field hockey and men's soccer balance each other. Now, we would see more funds for women sports, which as the Lafayette pointed out, is underfunded.

A major benefit from having a scholarship football team is that we would be allowed to play big teams, like Rutgers or Penn State, once a year. For playing these teams, Lafayette receives money, around $1 million from teams mentioned above. This would help fund the athletics program and ALL sports, and maybe even "pay for" the football scholarships.

What about the Ivy League? The Ivy and Patriot League is not a fair comparison. Schools like Harvard and Princeton have such deep resources that their current athletes are practically scholarship players because the threshold for receiving aid is so low for all students. They have a much larger pool of talent to select from than we do. And, I do not have all the facts on this one, but I believe that the qualifying academic criteria for student-athletes at Lafayette and other Patriot schools is more stringent than some Ivy's. But yes, the Ivy League does not give scholarships (wink-wink). And that leaves the Patriot League.

And what about athletics' standing at the College? Well, athletics SHOULD BE a core mission of the College, CONSISTENT with our academic ideals. We are almost there too; 97% of our student athletes graduate. Why should athletics and academics be mutually exclusive? Why are we judging that athletic ability is not a virtue that should be rewarded and added to the diversity of the campus any more than a physics prodigy, outstanding stage performer, premier vocalist, or brilliant engineer? Do colleges reward and celebrate these talents at all? Yes, they are Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, and Northwestern to name a few. We have excellent students who are some of the best in their respective endeavors, so why not add athletics to that mix?

Lafayette is not the size of a Stanford and never will be, which is why granting athletic scholarships will make the Patriot League schools unique. We would be able to offer a top quality education, in an intimate atmosphere, and have the ability to compete with the best on a consistent basis.

And yes, Lehigh is leaning towards "yes" as I understand. So if we do nothing, we will fall behind Lehigh. Who will tolerate that around here?

Excellent analysis, the BCS payday might be a bit overstated, but it is a big deal for those with a vision.

[TexasTerror]

Just rec'd this... no link yet.


Patriot League Defers Decision on Football Financial Aid

Center Valley, Pa. - The Patriot League Council of Presidents tabled a decision to amend its current need-based financial aid system for football, it was announced following the Council of Presidents meeting on Tuesday.

"Following extensive discussions at their meetings this week, the Patriot League Council of Presidents elected to table a decision to adjust the current need-limited model of financial aid for two years pending additional deliberations related to the League's strategic direction," the Council of Presidents announced in a joint statement.

"We had discussions about various financial aid models and recognized and evaluated the benefits as well as the potential costs associated with athletic merit aid for football. League presidents expressed their commitment to the stability and long-term positioning of the League."

[TexasTerror]

Just rec'd this... no link yet.

The link - http://www.patriotleague.org/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/121510aac.html

[Doc QB]

Gutless turds....or....deliberations ongoing behind closed doors while trying to see what expansion candidates would jump aboard IF 63 scholarships added??? Given all of the other FCS conf turmoil, this may be exactly why they are waiting, to see who in other conferences would jump ship.

Fordham is probably gone, though. Which stinks. Expansion candidate rectruitment or not, I think they screwed the proverbial pooch. The long term stability of the league is weakened by an act such as this. All that changes in two years, in my mind, is a few FCS schools moving up, and a few FCS ones left behind needing a new home. But would they pick us in the PL? Without scholarships, and Fordham having found another home, no way.

Painful.

[Bogus Megapardus]

But at least we get to continue to play Princeton and Harvard (or so goes the thinking, I suspect). What a load of crap. I wonder if Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham will bolt by January?

[colorless raider]

They won't do anything in two years. They are giving us a pacifier, its a joke. NOTHING will happen.

[LeopardFan04]

This makes me sick. This probably the worst possible decision. Fordham is gone and one would think any chance of solid expansion to reaffirm the foundation of the league is gone too. I can't imagine how Mr. Bourger or the Fishers or other big donors must feel. And we thought Rothkopf was bad for athletics...wow.

[letsgopards04]

I despise Weiss right now like the rest of us but Lafayette alone could not have made this happen. Maybe there were not enough votes for schollies so they tabled it in order to drum up support rather than vote it down.

[jimbo65]

Any chance Fordham Colgate & Lehigh, plus schools such as Maine, Albany & New Hampshire could form a fball only conference.

[jimbo65]

I despise Weiss right now like the rest of us but Lafayette alone could not have made this happen. Maybe there were not enough votes for schollies so they tabled it in order to drum up support rather than vote it down.
Weiss is not my favorite either but atleast he had the b*lls to make his position public.

[Ken_Z]

Weiss is not my favorite either but atleast he had the b*lls to make his position public.

i will give him credit for fighting for his position, but not for going public. the discussions have been classified as secret, some of the issues e.g. discussions with other schools for good reason, for the last two years and the other presidents abided by that, weiss did not. i would agree that at this point the League owes the public a better explanation.

[Go...gate]

An interesting response from Lafayette's facebook page asking for commentary on the issue... And, if we count the BCS money game, it is going to be less than $1.4 million!

...

Vote Yes! As the sports editor of the Lafayette five years ago, I have already seen this argument up close as it pertains to basketball. And like five years ago, this is an argument based on beliefs and philosophy.

The fact is that financial aid is provided to football already. Currently, a student-athlete can receive a combination of grants and aid covering demonstrated financial need. If you have the means to pay, you pay. However, with scholarships, a student-athlete is automatically granted the full aid regardless of the ability to pay. What does this do? It expands the pool of student-athletes to be selected by Lafayette solely by their skills and not their skills AND their ability to pay. Football already awards the equivalent of 40-something "full scholarships" through the current aid structure. Why not expand this to be solely a merit based selection instead of an ability to pay?

We are not talking about all 80-something players on scholarship like Ohio State or Penn State. We are talking about a limited system, which the other schools like Colgate, Lehigh, and Fordham want. And like our current four scholarship sports, Men's and Women's Basketball, Field Hockey, and Men's Soccer, we are going to have academic requirements. THIS is where our College's mission upholds the integrity of the whole process. If you are not qualified academically, you cannot play here, even if the next Tom Brady wants to play for the Leopards.

The issue of course is resources. If Lafayette grants football scholarships, we would have to grant equal scholarships for women's sports. We did that last time by having men's and women's basketball and field hockey and men's soccer balance each other. Now, we would see more funds for women sports, which as the Lafayette pointed out, is underfunded.

A major benefit from having a scholarship football team is that we would be allowed to play big teams, like Rutgers or Penn State, once a year. For playing these teams, Lafayette receives money, around $1 million from teams mentioned above. This would help fund the athletics program and ALL sports, and maybe even "pay for" the football scholarships.

What about the Ivy League? The Ivy and Patriot League is not a fair comparison. Schools like Harvard and Princeton have such deep resources that their current athletes are practically scholarship players because the threshold for receiving aid is so low for all students. They have a much larger pool of talent to select from than we do. And, I do not have all the facts on this one, but I believe that the qualifying academic criteria for student-athletes at Lafayette and other Patriot schools is more stringent than some Ivy's. But yes, the Ivy League does not give scholarships (wink-wink). And that leaves the Patriot League.

And what about athletics' standing at the College? Well, athletics SHOULD BE a core mission of the College, CONSISTENT with our academic ideals. We are almost there too; 97% of our student athletes graduate. Why should athletics and academics be mutually exclusive? Why are we judging that athletic ability is not a virtue that should be rewarded and added to the diversity of the campus any more than a physics prodigy, outstanding stage performer, premier vocalist, or brilliant engineer? Do colleges reward and celebrate these talents at all? Yes, they are Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, and Northwestern to name a few. We have excellent students who are some of the best in their respective endeavors, so why not add athletics to that mix?

Lafayette is not the size of a Stanford and never will be, which is why granting athletic scholarships will make the Patriot League schools unique. We would be able to offer a top quality education, in an intimate atmosphere, and have the ability to compete with the best on a consistent basis.

And yes, Lehigh is leaning towards "yes" as I understand. So if we do nothing, we will fall behind Lehigh. Who will tolerate that around here?

Thanks for posting - this is great.

[Pard4Life]

Expansion is not dead. Quite the contrary. You know what's going to happen? Good-bye Fordham, hello Marist. They will fit with the current aid structure and replace the Rams on the schedule. A potential yes vote is lost in 2012 and replaced with a no in Marist because they will not commit their limited resources to athletics. Or, the Foxes receive gauramtees that there will be a very limited system that they can afford.

Also, this dealy also might be a manuver to have time to fundraise.

[heath]

Bet Fordham.Colgate and even Lehigh look behind closed doors and are gone in 2 years. Its a shame a few LIBERAL elites do not see,or care about the positives of providing scholarships to PL qualified kids. For all the smack the LC posters seem to bring,maybe you should direct that crap towards your president or BOV. You have lost out on a great opportunity,and took a whole league down with you. Keep watching the CAA be the conference you guys only dream of.

[JU_Dolphin]

It seems to me that in the next two years the only thing that should happen is Fordham moving to the CAA and Marist joining the PL. I think the rest of the PL will stick with it until the next vote (if there is one...). PL should survive until than.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bet Fordham.Colgate and even Lehigh look behind closed doors and are gone in 2 years. Its a shame a few LIBERAL elites do not see,or care about the positives of providing scholarships to PL qualified kids. For all the smack the LC posters seem to bring,maybe you should direct that crap towards your president or BOV. You have lost out on a great opportunity,and took a whole league down with you. Keep watching the CAA be the conference you guys only dream of.

The "smack" is directed at Lehigh, our traditional and storied rival. They understand it and the environment in which it is done. At least we have such a rival.

We admire the CCA's level of competition, of course, but we have little in common with Georgia State or James Madison. If we were to pattern ourselves after any conference, more likely it would be the stability and academic standard set by Ivy. We have many more sports and applicants in common with Ivy than we do with the CAA.

[superman7515]

What I don't understand is, as long as the AI was still in place (and there was never any talk of it going away), how on Earth would giving scholarships to players of football, or any sport for that matter, make your school's academics any lower? And yet you have faculty, albeit being forced in some cases, protesting in the streets. Nothing academically was going to change except maybe a few more kids who had the grades but couldn't afford the school would get in, not even just kids playing football. I understand there are other ways of getting financial aid, but the point being that if you have 100 packages available, #101 isn't getting one. But if you take 40-63 kids out of that 100, you add just as many back in that aren't playing a sport.

[Bogus Megapardus]

What I don't understand is, as long as the AI was still in place (and there was never any talk of it going away), how on Earth would giving scholarships to players of football, or any sport for that matter, make your school's academics any lower?

It wouldn't. More likely than not the academic profile would get better, as has tended to be the case in other sports once scholarships began earlier in the decade.

[DFW HOYA]

What I don't understand is, as long as the AI was still in place (and there was never any talk of it going away), how on Earth would giving scholarships to players of football, or any sport for that matter, make your school's academics any lower?

So why do schools oppose scholarships? In part, because it commits money to a narrow segment of applicants (e.g., 15-25 incoming football players) and does not give the school the freedom to competitively apportion money as they see fit. Does the Lafayette admissions office want to offer four students get a $12,000 grant which could tip the scales for them to enroll, or direct it to one full grant for a football player?

I wish the AI were off the table. The PL offices apparently cannot trust these respected schools to enroll quality student-athletes.

[Go...gate]

DFW, looking at this coldly, you guys are the hands-down winners in this situation. Any idea what the GU administration will do, or will they continue to hold their position?

[Go...gate]

So why do schools oppose scholarships? In part, because it commits money to a narrow segment of applicants (e.g., 15-25 incoming football players) and does not give the school the freedom to competitively apportion money as they see fit. Does the Lafayette admissions office want to offer four students get a $12,000 grant which could tip the scales for them to enroll, or direct it to one full grant for a football player?

I wish the AI were off the table. The PL offices apparently cannot trust these respected schools to enroll quality student-athletes.

I have no quarrel with the AI and believe it does accomplish its purpose. I want kids who can do the schoolwork on PL squads.

[ngineer]

I just got home from work and saw an email from the Lehigh Boosters about the "decision" not to decide and kick the can down the road for two years. F***ing status quo through 2012. Leave it to the academics to enjoy their mental masturbation. I am just so pissed to read of this...and too tired to read through the numerous pages at this time. Sad day for the PL. I agree, that the only potential candidate for expansion, now would be Marist, or possibly BU if they are planning or reinstating football. If the Presidents aren't interested in competing for a national championship than why bother with the charade.

I did see Reinhard's column today in the Morning Call. Pretty interesting regarding the in-fighting among the former BOT members who are now ostracized and have reacted by limiting their donations to LC athletics. I'm basically at the same page, (just not in the same income bracket) in giving my dollars soley to Lehigh's Athletic Partnership.

[hawkineer]

DFW, looking at this coldly, you guys are the hands-down winners in this situation. Any idea what the GU administration will do, or will they continue to hold their position?

Yippee for Georgetown. For the first time in their tenure in the Patriot League, they're a hands down winner of anything. The GU administration will continue to include future plans for the pending upgrade to the MSF in the GU football programs, trying to convince the 300 people who show up that Hoya football has a bright future.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW, looking at this coldly, you guys are the hands-down winners in this situation. Any idea what the GU administration will do, or will they continue to hold their position?

I don't consider Georgetown to have "won" anything--it's status quo and GU is still from from $1.6-3.5 million behind relative to funding at other schools. This issue never heated up to the point where GU sent an e-mail from the Gridiron Club or Coach Kelly to discuss it, and it's more likely that a lot more people knew absolutely nothing about it.


Yippee for Georgetown. For the first time in their tenure in the Patriot League, they're a hands down winner of anything. The GU administration will continue to include future plans for the pending upgrade to the MSF in the GU football programs, trying to convince the 300 people who show up that Hoya football has a bright future.

2010 Average Attendance: 2,489
2010 Per Game Capacity: 2,400
Average Capacity: 104%

[carney2]

What I don't understand is, as long as the AI was still in place (and there was never any talk of it going away), how on Earth would giving scholarships to players of football, or any sport for that matter, make your school's academics any lower? And yet you have faculty, albeit being forced in some cases, protesting in the streets. Nothing academically was going to change except maybe a few more kids who had the grades but couldn't afford the school would get in, not even just kids playing football. I understand there are other ways of getting financial aid, but the point being that if you have 100 packages available, #101 isn't getting one. But if you take 40-63 kids out of that 100, you add just as many back in that aren't playing a sport.

What you say may be true, but you are missing the point. It isn't about academic accomplishment or even, to some extent, money. It is an ideological issue. The faculty is opposed to heavy support - financial and otherwise - to something that they feel is outside of the core mission of an educational institution. That, anyway, is their stated position. Beyond that, you have to consider who the people are who comprise the "faculty." By and large, they were the egghead geeks from your middle school and high school who dreaded gym class and were pushed around by the jocks. They resented all the attention that the athletes got then, and convinced themselves that it was unwarranted and that intellectual pursuits were unfairly being overlooked. Now that they are in a position of power (and I do not, for the life of me, understand how that ever came about) and their views have hardened, they are finally able to mete out "justice."

See, it's pretty simple once you peel away the layers of intellectual pretense and the flowery language.

[Go...gate]

I don't consider Georgetown to have "won" anything--it's status quo and GU is still from from $1.6-3.5 million behind relative to funding at other schools. This issue never heated up to the point where GU sent an e-mail from the Gridiron Club or Coach Kelly to discuss it, and it's more likely that a lot more people knew absolutely nothing about it.



2010 Average Attendance: 2,489
2010 Per Game Capacity: 2,400
Average Capacity: 104%

Respectfully, IMO, GU sure as hell DID win something, in that GU can continue to do nothing to upgrade its program or the MSF. I have to think if the PL went to 40-63 scholarships it would have been over for you guys in the conference. I see this, at least in part, as a "yes" to GU and a rather dishonorable "no" to Fordham.

[Go...gate]

Yippee for Georgetown. For the first time in their tenure in the Patriot League, they're a hands down winner of anything. The GU administration will continue to include future plans for the pending upgrade to the MSF in the GU football programs, trying to convince the 300 people who show up that Hoya football has a bright future.

I hope, at the very least, that GU finds a few dollars to do at least this.

[Doc QB]

We admire the CCA's level of competition, of course, but we have little in common with Georgia State or James Madison. If we were to pattern ourselves after any conference, more likely it would be the stability and academic standard set by Ivy. We have many more sports and applicants in common with Ivy than we do with the CAA.

Why must we continually compare our aspirations to the d@#m Ivy league? We will never be one of those elite ancient eight. They will never offer athletic scholarships. We will never be a conference of mostly medium sized state institutions, either, like the CAA, where we should aspire athletically. Where we miss the boat by the constant Ivy wannabe comparison, and the Presidents as well, was to be UNIQUE in having elite caliber students get a full athletic scholarship for football. Stop the d@$m comparisons and find an identity that is a unique brand.

[Doc QB]

[QUOTE=carney2;1600844] Beyond that, you have to consider who the people are who comprise the "faculty." By and large, they were the egghead geeks from your middle school and high school who dreaded gym class and were pushed around by the jocks. They resented all the attention that the athletes got then, and convinced themselves that it was unwarranted and that intellectual pursuits were unfairly being overlooked. QUOTE]

And they are probably even MORE annoyed today as PL profs because the athletes there are not only excellent at their respective athletic endeavor, but now fill their classrooms and are also JUST AS BRIGHT as those high school dorks who comprise the faculty. Funny to me.

[carney2]

Respectfully, IMO, GU sure as hell DID win something, in that GU can continue to do nothing to upgrade its program or the MSF. I have to think if the PL went to 40-63 scholarships it would have been over for you guys in the conference. I see this, at least in part, as a "yes" to GU and a rather dishonorable "no" to Fordham.

How about a check mark in "None of the Above." It is unlikely that this action was taken without the acquiescence of Fordham. The Rams simply are saying

If you people are in too much turmoil to make a decision, that's OK by us - for now. We have nowhere else to go, and you know that. If, however, the situation changes and we see other opportunities, do not expect us to wait around while you play kick the can.

Fordham continues to hover near one door while Georgetown has a reluctant hand on another. Nothing's changed, and that is what the Council of Ostriches (thank you, Paul Reinhard of the Allentown Mourning Crawl) wanted. No one is any closer to the exit than they were two weeks ago.

Can the status quo be maintained for 24 months? Now, there is a dicey question.

[the last indian]

IMO, the state goal of maintaining the stability of the league is a canard. They did the opposite. Fordham leaves, the league is down to 6, 2 of which are rarely competitive in or out of the league (Marist will make it 3 teams), with deference to Lehigh's reasonable show in the playoffs, the league is largely irrelevant. Fordham is the only program with a clear vision and will be playing Army and other meaningful opponents and are in a position to find a good league affiliation while the opportunity exists. The better PL teams should bolt now while they have the opportunity because it is merely a matter of time before the league becomes un-salvageable. We clearly have some presidents who don't give a S--- about these programs and Weiss clearly rolled over the CU and LU presidents. Very sad and it will only get worse.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So why do schools oppose scholarships? In part, because it commits money to a narrow segment of applicants (e.g., 15-25 incoming football players) and does not give the school the freedom to competitively apportion money as they see fit. Does the Lafayette admissions office want to offer four students get a $12,000 grant which could tip the scales for them to enroll, or direct it to one full grant for a football player?

In theory, this looks great. In practice, what this means is that four more well-to-do probably-white kids get in, and one less well-to-do probably non-white kid doesn't make it in. Of course, the school gains revenue in this way, because those four probably-white kids pay something to get in, but you suffer in diversity. Ask Boston University.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Can the status quo be maintained for 24 months? Now, there is a dicey question.

24 months? Hell no. Hell, I'm wondering if the status quo can be maintained for the next six months!

[RichH2]

Status quo on a slippery slope is not exactly what you should aim for , but that's only my opinion. As I have repeated more often than I care to recall, any decision would have been better than none. Clarity is a very rare quality in the PL. Well maybe the economy will improve and of course that will solve all the problems so we should be good boys and girls and mind our Presidents because they know what's best for us. Geez, I just want to throw up.

[Go...gate]

24 months? Hell no. Hell, I'm wondering if the status quo can be maintained for the next six months!

Right.

[Model Citizen]

(Marist will make it 3 teams)

Wow. 36 pages of delusions in this thread.

And this might top them all.

[danefan]

Why must we continually compare our aspirations to the d@#m Ivy league? We will never be one of those elite ancient eight. They will never offer athletic scholarships. We will never be a conference of mostly medium sized state institutions, either, like the CAA, where we should aspire athletically. Where we miss the boat by the constant Ivy wannabe comparison, and the Presidents as well, was to be UNIQUE in having elite caliber students get a full athletic scholarship for football. Stop the d@$m comparisons and find an identity that is a unique brand.

+1

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It is now 24 hours later, and I am no less angry now than I was before I heard the announcement.

I respect coach Tavani for wanting us to all "calm down", but I am still angry and exasperated at the Ents running the show.

[Neighbor2]

Can we agree, if either Lehigh or Colgate now announces they have a different vision for their efforts and will begin awarding merit-based scholarships, the "football" Patriot League will be in serious jeopardy?

If so, I forsee an emergency meeting of the ostriches, who then wash the egg from their collective heads and join the real world of FCS football. At that point, the votes of Navy, Army, and American are non-issues.

[Franks Tanks]

Can we agree, if either Lehigh or Colgate now announces they have a different vision for their efforts and will begin awarding merit-based scholarships, the "football" Patriot League will be in serious jeopardy?

If so, I forsee an emergency meeting of the ostriches, who then wash the egg from their collective heads and join the real world of FCS football. At that point, the votes of Navy, Army, and American are non-issues.

Lehigh and or Colgate had the chance to force the issue right now, but apparently backed down for some reason. It is much easier to explain that we had to leave the league because of a no vote vs. we are leaving before a vote takes place.

[Neighbor2]

Good point, Franks Tanks. I can't understand why both Lehigh and Colgate (as seems true) would yield and not be more aggressive. My guess is, Army, Navy, and American all abstained. Other posters said such action equates to three "against" votes. Maybe the league needs to rethink that interpretation.

[RichH2]

I am looking for the right words to describe my dismay at the lack of will by Gate and Lehigh, assuming they were actually in favor of schollies. Again if it was economically not doable, OK just say that. Since they didn't , one must assume the concept of merit aid in any form has not been resolved. Should just change our name to the IVY LITE conference.

[98hoya]

Yippee for Georgetown. For the first time in their tenure in the Patriot League, they're a hands down winner of anything. The GU administration will continue to include future plans for the pending upgrade to the MSF in the GU football programs, trying to convince the 300 people who show up that Hoya football has a bright future.

Hawkineer,

You can Georgetown bash all you want, but remember: we're all that now stands between the Patriot League's playoff spot existing or not existing. You should be rooting for us, not denigrating us.

[98hoya]

Wow. 36 pages of delusions in this thread.

And this might top them all.

Isn't Marist's endowment $21 million? I'm not sure they're exactly a great peer institution to bring into the PL.

[Go...gate]

Isn't Marist's endowment $21 million? I'm not sure they're exactly a great peer institution to bring into the PL.

It is a bit larger now.

[Go...gate]

Hawkineer,

You can Georgetown bash all you want, but remember: we're all that now stands between the Patriot League's playoff spot existing or not existing. You should be rooting for us, not denigrating us.

It was only a matter of time before that remark was made. Jeez.

[Neighbor2]

98hoya, I'll say this. Right now, Georgetown is emblematic of the Patriot League's football philosophy. That is, anyone can do football. I'm more interested in playing football with the same tools as everyone else in FCS. Otherwise, why bother to participate at that level?

Geez, let's just do the Division III thing at kick a*s down in Salem one day.

[Fordham]

Hawkineer,

You can Georgetown bash all you want, but remember: we're all that now stands between the Patriot League's playoff spot existing or not existing. You should be rooting for us, not denigrating us. FWIW, Fordham is not going anywhere yet so Gtown isn't the ONLY thing standing in the way (again "yet"). I also think everyone is rooting for Georgetown football to thrive but to the extent that this decision damaged the PL, many posters here are frustrated with their role in making this decision happen. At the end of day, everyone wants the league they're in to thrive/survive but never at the expense of their own school. As more and more information gets out about why this decision was made I think things will become clearer. If it was a 'wait until we sell this a bit more and move ahead with scholarships in two years' I think fans will suck it up and wait (not be pleased with it but accept it, if that makes sense). If it's more of a clear indication that this is a dead issue then I think the shake out will begin and things will get uglier and you'll hear more and more frustration expressed. Just my .02

[Fordham]

Ok, guys, I'm dying to hear any feedback on how this whole thing impacts recruting. That's the killer in all of this. If they had simply made this (non) call immediately following the season or before, you could have gone out and recruited the same athletes you always did. Did anyone go out under the assumption that scholarships would be offered? that would be brutal imo and the biggest short-term impact of this announcement. It might be too early to have heard anything but I'm very curious since having to shift gears this late in the process could really, really damage this year's class imo.

[98hoya]

98hoya, I'll say this. Right now, Georgetown is emblematic of the Patriot League's football philosophy. That is, anyone can do football. I'm more interested in playing football with the same tools as everyone else in FCS. Otherwise, why bother to participate at that level?

Geez, let's just do the Division III thing at kick a*s down in Salem one day.

I agree - if I was holding the purse strings, I'd improve our football budget and facilities. It's pretty frustrating.

PS - Lafayette and Holy Cross do a bit more than just "do" football and we beat them this year, so the differences with respect to output clearly aren't all THAT great based on budget, facilities, etc..

[98hoya]

FWIW, Fordham is not going anywhere yet so Gtown isn't the ONLY thing standing in the way (again "yet"). I also think everyone is rooting for Georgetown football to thrive but to the extent that this decision damaged the PL, many posters here are frustrated with their role in making this decision happen. At the end of day, everyone wants the league they're in to thrive/survive but never at the expense of their own school. As more and more information gets out about why this decision was made I think things will become clearer. If it was a 'wait until we sell this a bit more and move ahead with scholarships in two years' I think fans will suck it up and wait (not be pleased with it but accept it, if that makes sense). If it's more of a clear indication that this is a dead issue then I think the shake out will begin and things will get uglier and you'll hear more and more frustration expressed. Just my .02

I hear you and I think what you say makes sense. First off, let's be clear that expressing frustration at the administrative decisions of the G'town athletic department is something that we, as GU alums, do plenty of. Second of all, let's also not forget that from our administration's perspective (not mine personally) it's the PL that needs Gtown at this point, not vice versa. Sadly, 99% of Gtown alums would be fine with not fielding a team and, but for the wacky NCAA rule requiring hoops and football to both be D-I, I'm pretty confident we'd still be playing D-3 ball. I hope that changes, but I think if PL rooters are waiting around for Georgetown to get really serious about football and start putting up silly money for it, it's not likely to happen.

[98hoya]

It is a bit larger now.

Beyond that, isn't it fair to say that Marist is not...how do I put this...a school with the same emphasis on academic achievement as the current PL schools? If the PL is just looking to pick up some random eastern college that wants to play non-scholarship 1-aa ball, I'd think there would be better options.

[Go...gate]

I agree - if I was holding the purse strings, I'd improve our football budget and facilities. It's pretty frustrating.

PS - Lafayette and Holy Cross do a bit more than just "do" football and we beat them this year, so the differences with respect to output clearly aren't all THAT great based on budget, facilities, etc..

To be sure, my hope is that this season was a beginning for you guys, and things will continue to slowly move in the right direction.

[Gater]

The next move should be to let Fordham compete for the league title with scholarships. Say it's for the sake of keeping the league intact/keeping the autobid and let the precedent be set for scholarships in the Patriot League. Alumni of the schools without scholarships will be outraged and force the issue. If Holy Cross can stay in the league after instituting basketball scholarships why wouldn't the same thing happen if Lehigh did it in football (with Fordham already having them)?

[colorless raider]

The next move should be to let Fordham compete for the league title with scholarships. Say it's for the sake of keeping the league intact/keeping the autobid and let the precedent be set for scholarships in the Patriot League. Alumni of the schools without scholarships will be outraged and force the issue. If Holy Cross can stay in the league after instituting basketball scholarships why wouldn't the same thing happen if Lehigh did it in football (with Fordham already having them)?

I am 100% for the so-callled "smoke em if ya got em" philosophy and I hope Colgate lights up!!

[colorless raider]

I am looking for the right words to describe my dismay at the lack of will by Gate and Lehigh, assuming they were actually in favor of schollies. Again if it was economically not doable, OK just say that. Since they didn't , one must assume the concept of merit aid in any form has not been resolved. Should just change our name to the IVY LITE conference.

I am with you on that one Rich!

[hawkineer]

Hawkineer,

You can Georgetown bash all you want, but remember: we're all that now stands between the Patriot League's playoff spot existing or not existing. You should be rooting for us, not denigrating us.

Congratulations on having the lofty goal of remaining all that stands between the P.L.s playoff spot or not. I would think Hoya fans might have slightly higher aspirations than that for their football program. I am rooting for GU to make a real commitment to football. By any indicator, it is impossible to believe that the Hoyas have any true commitment to football. New buildings are being constructed around the MSF but the visitor's facilities at the MSF consist of 5 port-a-lets and a trailer with no lights or running water. There were plans announced several years ago to upgrade the stadium and nothing has happened. I am rooting for the Hoyas to make a bigger commitment to its football program than meeting some FCS quorum. However, if GU's goal in football is to maintain enough league members to maintain the autobid, the Hoyas will be what they have been for the last 10 seasons and nothing more.

[DFW HOYA]

98hoya, I'll say this. Right now, Georgetown is emblematic of the Patriot League's football philosophy. That is, anyone can do football. I'm more interested in playing football with the same tools as everyone else in FCS. Otherwise, why bother to participate at that level?


And if you ask most Georgetown fans (or players or coaches, for that matter), they'd agree with you. But there's no Jack Boerger in Washington that's going to call out administrators for inactivity, no Maroon Council mandate that opens doors, and certainly the number of $1,000 donors in football isn't a fraction of the more than 23,000 donors to the Annual Fund. A decade of losing, a decade of visible inaction on a facilities project called "the most significant undertaking in the history of Georgetown athletics", and a general lack of communications with its base (e.g., "is the head coach with a 9-45 record returning next year or not?") tends to make issues like scholarships seem very distant. You could charge $100 a ticket for every non-student seat at the unfinished MSF for an entire season and not generate enough gate revenues for more than 8 men's scholarships a year.

I think the PL presidents know, if not expect, that Georgetown can do much better than it has done. Maybe thge league should have been a little more forceful about it up front, who knows, but Georgetown football fights a battle as the fourth or fifth kid sitting at a 29 sport table versus six other schools where football sits at the head of its table.

Scholarships do not have visibility: this story not only didn't get a note in the Washington papers, it didn't even make the campus papers. Given that two-thirds of sports at GU are underfunded on scholarships, it's not exactly a surprise that football is, too.

But I think the next two years isn't the end of the league inasmuch as we'll see if teams sell scholarships to HC, Bucknell, and even Lafayette so that, in 2012, this isn't even a close vote. If Georgetown hasn't stepped it up by then, it won't be able to stay in the PL.


New buildings are being constructed around the MSF but the visitor's facilities at the MSF consist of 5 port-a-lets and a trailer with no lights or running water. There were plans announced several years ago to upgrade the stadium and nothing has happened.

The business school building was built thanks to a gift from the family of the former prime minister of Lebanon. The science building is being built with federal technology grants from the stimulus program. Neither gift was going to help the MSF.

It has been 1,916 days since MSF construction was "temporaily" halted. None has taken place since. (Yes, I'm counting it.)

[heath]

What you say may be true, but you are missing the point. It isn't about academic accomplishment or even, to some extent, money. It is an ideological issue. The faculty is opposed to heavy support - financial and otherwise - to something that they feel is outside of the core mission of an educational institution. That, anyway, is their stated position. Beyond that, you have to consider who the people are who comprise the "faculty." By and large, they were the egghead geeks from your middle school and high school who dreaded gym class and were pushed around by the jocks. They resented all the attention that the athletes got then, and convinced themselves that it was unwarranted and that intellectual pursuits were unfairly being overlooked. Now that they are in a position of power (and I do not, for the life of me, understand how that ever came about) and their views have hardened, they are finally able to mete out "justice."

See, it's pretty simple once you peel away the layers of intellectual pretense and the flowery language.
position of power at Lafayette? are they really that stupid and consumed with perceived power that they would neglect the college of $$$$$$$$$$. They must have sh$t a brick with all the money pumped into Fisher Field,or did the geeks think it was an outdoor amphitheater? An embarrassing time to be a LC football xeyebrowxfan.xconfusedxxtwocentsx

[Go...gate]

Beyond that, isn't it fair to say that Marist is not...how do I put this...a school with the same emphasis on academic achievement as the current PL schools? If the PL is just looking to pick up some random eastern college that wants to play non-scholarship 1-aa ball, I'd think there would be better options.

On the face of this you are right. However, some see Marist as another American, because it has invested heavily in its academic profile (which has moved in a more favorable and selective direction) and physical plant (which is already very nice) in recent years. Marist's endowment, however, remains light.

[Go...gate]

Beyond that, isn't it fair to say that Marist is not...how do I put this...a school with the same emphasis on academic achievement as the current PL schools? If the PL is just looking to pick up some random eastern college that wants to play non-scholarship 1-aa ball, I'd think there would be better options.

Seriously, the floor is open for suggestions....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Beyond that, isn't it fair to say that Marist is not...how do I put this...a school with the same emphasis on academic achievement as the current PL schools? If the PL is just looking to pick up some random eastern college that wants to play non-scholarship 1-aa ball, I'd think there would be better options.

Try to name one, and then get back to me.

[aceinthehole]

Here's my thoughts on the subject from 2 years ago. :)


Carney - good stuff. Too bad everyone ignores the quotes from PL officials. We already know academics are a top priority (how we define that is a fair debate), but a COMPETATIVE D-I program WITH FOOTBALL is a clear and objective criteria. Why do some keep mentioning sub D-I programs (especially with the NCAA moritorium) and schools without football?

Here's the list:
Villanova - Ain't leaving the BE, and FB-only appears a remote possiblity.
Richmond - Ain't leaving the A-10 unless there is a major realignment, and FB-only is doubtful based on recent reports.
Furman - Are they willing to leave the SoCon for a Northern conference?
Wofford - Are they willing to leave the SoCon for a Northern conference?
VMI - Are they willing to be the Southern outpost in the PL?
Marist - Prime target, IF their academics are considered strong enough.
Dayton - Ain't leaving the A-10 unless there is a major realignment, and FB-only is doubtful based on recent reports.
Bryant - Opportunity already not taken by the PL, so its highly doubtful.
Wagner - Offers NYC market, but is the complete academic/athletic profile strong enough? (doubt it)
Sacred Heart - Improving, but a very long, long shot.
Towson - Former PL affiliate, why leave the CAA now?
Monmouth - Academics are clearly a huge question.

Again, what other choices does the PL have outside of Marist? I can't see any other REALISTIC options. I really think expansion is probably not going to happen, until a major conference realignment trickles down to mid-majors.

Yep, you're right.

I HATE to use the USNWR rankings for anything, but just for some general and rough perspective, here's some of the Tier 1 schools in the Master's University-North category:

1. Villanova - Ain't leaving the BE, and FB-only is doubtful.
2. Loyola (MD) - MAAC school with great Lax, but no football.
4. Fairfield - Same story as Loyola.
9. Rochester Institute of Technology - D-III with no plans to reclassify.
13. Marist - Prime target!
13. Quinnipiac - Has ice hockey, but no football.
16. Bryant - Opportunity not taken by the PL.
23. Wagner - Offers NYC, but is the complete profile strong enough?
26. Mt. St. Mary's - Another NEC school, but no football.
30. Iona - Questionable administration, no football.
33. Sacred Heart - Improving, but a long, long shot.
40. Towson - Former PL affiliate.
46. Monmouth - Much further down than I expected.

As for the National Liberal Arts rankings from which the core of the PL reside, the following are the only D-I schools in the region (listed by rank):

Richmond
Furman
Wofford
VMI
Birmingham-Southern
Presbyterian
Siena

Only Siena (without football) is in the current footprint. Who from this list is a realistic candidate? Anyone? Not really.

[the last indian]

Forget about it. The league is toast. Those who want to step up should leave (LU,CU?) and get out of town while there might be somewhere to go. That is the irony of this decision, "to preserve the stability of the League". For what, 6 teams, no hope in the FCS, playing tiddle de winks in their little back yard? Irrelevant doesn't describe the PL. Good luck to Fordham, the only institution from the PL with a clear head and some cajones.

[maristdb89]

It is a bit larger now.

Endowment is $125M. Recent bequest seriously helped. But based on this decision or lack thereof, Marist is not at all interested in the PL for football.

[fball27]

On the face of this you are right. However, some see Marist as another American, because it has invested heavily in its academic profile (which has moved in a more favorable and selective direction) and physical plant (which is already very nice) in recent years. Marist's endowment, however, remains light.

Marist isn't in the same academic league as PL schools and neither is their endowment.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Endowment is $125M. Recent bequest seriously helped. But based on this decision or lack thereof, Marist is not at all interested in the PL for football.

The prosecution rests.

[ramMan]

Endowment is $125M.



Huh??? It was $18.7 million as of June 30, 2009.

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/research/2009_NCSE_Public_Tables_Endowment_Market_Values.pd f

[Fox 94]

Endowment is $125M. Recent bequest seriously helped. But based on this decision or lack thereof, Marist is not at all interested in the PL for football.

I agree. The PL has no direction and member institutions would look down their noses at us.

No thanks.

[DFW HOYA]

Related question: Putting cost and academics aside for a moment, has this non-decision all but scared off any expansion candidates? Seriously, if the PL has no expansion candidates whatsoever, they risk the danger of implosion, and UMass' intended jump to the MAC only raises the stakes that the CAA could see a PL school as its own expansion target...and maybe it's not Fordham.

Maybe the new motto from Center Valley will be "AU Football: Its Time Has Come".

[Collegefootballfan]

The Patriot league only option is to give up and join the
Pioneer League.
Get it over with while there is still time to join ,
In two years the Pioneer League might be too big to admit them.
They offer national exposure , teams from coast to coast .
A potential AQ.
An affordable budget .
Everything the Patriot league is trying to do the Pioneer league has already
worked out.
The only thing the Patriot league would have to give up is there elitist attitude .
On second thought maybe the Pioneer League is better off without them
See you in two years, maybe.

[98hoya]

Congratulations on having the lofty goal of remaining all that stands between the P.L.s playoff spot or not. I would think Hoya fans might have slightly higher aspirations than that for their football program. I am rooting for GU to make a real commitment to football. By any indicator, it is impossible to believe that the Hoyas have any true commitment to football. New buildings are being constructed around the MSF but the visitor's facilities at the MSF consist of 5 port-a-lets and a trailer with no lights or running water. There were plans announced several years ago to upgrade the stadium and nothing has happened. I am rooting for the Hoyas to make a bigger commitment to its football program than meeting some FCS quorum. However, if GU's goal in football is to maintain enough league members to maintain the autobid, the Hoyas will be what they have been for the last 10 seasons and nothing more.

Hawkineer,

Save your sarcastic congratulations. Don't confuse me, or any other Gtown alum on this board with the 99% of Georgetown people who don't care about football. I DO care. Several posters here seem to think that because they're lucky enough to have gone to/support an institution where football is relatively big (relative to Gtown that is, not relative to schools in the FBS) are somehow individually superior to us sad-sacks who went to/played at/financially support (all which describe me) a school that doesn't. Get over it - the attitidue of the Gtown administration is NOT the same as individual football supporters.

My personal opinion is that Georgetown will never have a football team that's year-in, year-out competitive in the PL. I'd like it, I just don't think it will ever happen. There is no doubt in my mind that the #1 goal on campus is to maintain and improve our status as an elite academic institution. We're safely in the US News top 25 of all universities and I'm pretty confident that they want to be in the top 10. As a result, the money will always, ALWAYS, go to that. Our football stadium could be a hilly field with deck chairs for stands and as long as the NCAA would sanction it, they'll spend free money on a new science center or a new business school over a new field every last time. Call it Ivy envy, call it what you want, but I think the powers-that-be at Gtown would much rather crack the top 10 of the US News than the top 10 of the NCAA. For basketball, they'll allow a little funny business because (a) it gets us on TV and is profitable, (b) our alums love it (which, unfortunately isn't the case with football), and (c) having 3-5 new students who get snuck in for hoops despite far below average SATs won't dilute our stats when it comes to US News (and besides, it has proven to be a largely successful way to get almost exclusiviely minority students who wouldn't otherwise get a chance an opportunity for an elite college degree).

By contrast, what's a good 1-aa football team buy the school that wants to be academically elite? NADA. The only reason it's anywhere near acceptable now is because I think the powers-that-be like the idea of us playing 2-3 games a year vs. Ivy league schools. Why? Because it makes them feel good about associating with them. As for PL schools, sure, they are OK, but no one in our administration is getting all that excited about Lehigh or Colgate coming to town. It's all about status (social, academic). Football can't buy us status and, thus, will never be a priority.

Again, I DISAGREE with the rationale of the above, but I think that's the thought-process from the administration.

[DFW HOYA]

Football can't buy us status and, thus, will never be a priority.

By the same analysis, neither can track. Why is it a priority, then?

[Franks Tanks]

The Patriot league only option is to give up and join the
Pioneer League.
Get it over with while there is still time to join ,
In two years the Pioneer League might be too big to admit them.
They offer national exposure , teams from coast to coast .
A potential AQ.
An affordable budget .
Everything the Patriot league is trying to do the Pioneer league has already
worked out.
The only thing the Patriot league would have to give up is there elitist attitude .
On second thought maybe the Pioneer League is better off without them
See you in two years, maybe.


Yes, our teams are begging for that national exposure gained by playing at Jacksonville in front of 4 rows of bleachers.

[98hoya]

By the same analysis, neither can track. Why is it a priority, then?

You really think track is a priority? Come on DFW, they're very good, but I don't think more than 1% of our alumni, other than track alumni, would even blink if it forever went away.

[DFW HOYA]

You really think track is a priority? Come on DFW, they're very good, but don't act like anyone cares about it.

It is a fully funded scholarship program and internally identified, along with basketball and lacrosse, as sports with a mandate to compete for national championships. Students may not care, but Georgetown certainly does.

That having been said, imagine trying to recruit for track and field when the University hasn't had a track since 1996.

[CFBfan]

The Patriot league only option is to give up and join the
Pioneer League.
Get it over with while there is still time to join ,
In two years the Pioneer League might be too big to admit them.
They offer national exposure , teams from coast to coast .
A potential AQ.
An affordable budget .
Everything the Patriot league is trying to do the Pioneer league has already
worked out.
The only thing the Patriot league would have to give up is there elitist attitude .
On second thought maybe the Pioneer League is better off without them
See you in two years, maybe.

Thanks for your comments, you make the best possible example as to why NO Patriot League School would EVER want to join your league. National exposure!!??? National??!!! are you nuts?!!!!

[superman7515]

Wait.... are you talking to yourself? Haha

[CFBfan]

Wait.... are you talking to yourself? Haha

Wow! that was really good, hope you didn't hurt yourself thinking that one up superman

[98hoya]

It is a fully funded scholarship program and internally identified, along with basketball and lacrosse, as sports with a mandate to compete for national championships. Students may not care, but Georgetown certainly does.

That having been said, imagine trying to recruit for track and field when the University hasn't had a track since 1996.

I'm defining "priority" - as I think is the sensible way - as something an institution puts higher up on the list of worthiness to receive limited resources (i.e. money).

I really don't think that, other than on a piece of paper saying it's a "national" program, track is a priority. We have no track, the team shares our 50 year old field house with every other team, there's minimal equipment, what is given in scholarship would've largely been given away in need-based grants to the same kids anyway under a different column, many of the team members are strong students who would've gotten into Gtown anyway. In other words, it doesn't hurt very much to have a track team, even if no one cares (which is essentially the case - no one cares).

I know this because some of my roommates and closest friends at GU were track athletes - some of them were stars. The difference between what they got and a normal student got was (a) a few grand in scholarship money, (b) a bunch of sweatsuits, (c) regular travel to obscure universities to compete in front of 300 people. They might have gotten priority in course selection, but I actually don't even think they got that. Put another way: I promise you, these people were not priorities.

If we really look seriously at it, basketball is our only sport that is considered relevant. Lax, soccer, track, field hockey, football - they're just things to do and the powers that be will keep them as long as they're not inconvenient.

[JU_Dolphin]

Yes, our teams are begging for that national exposure gained by playing at Jacksonville in front of 4 rows of bleachers.

I'll have you know there are atleast 5 rows of bleachers at JU! Seriously, the PFL is a stable league and is improving, but it is not what the PL wants, no way no how. And whoever said we have national exposure is crazy, local market exposure at best, and even then only a limitied number even care.

[Franks Tanks]

I'll have you know there are atleast 5 rows of bleachers at JU! Seriously, the PFL is a stable league and is improving, but it is not what the PL wants, no way no how. And whoever said we have national exposure is crazy, local market exposure at best, and even then only a limitied number even care.


I didn't mean to bang on Jacksonville in any way. You guys had a great year.

However, PL struggle to put butts in the seats even when we play teams like Harvard, Nova, and Furman.

[maristdb89]

Huh??? It was $18.7 million as of June 30, 2009.

http://www.nacubo.org/Documents/research/2009_NCSE_Public_Tables_Endowment_Market_Values.pd f

$125M was wiki cite - NCSE + $75M Bequest + Additional Capital. Point being Marist with the recent $75M bequest is much more financial sound.

[maristdb89]

PFL is a stable league and is improving

Agreed!!!

[Bogus Megapardus]

No one ought to be out ruffling the Red Fox fur here. Marist seems to be added to the discussion now and again for no other reason than it exists, and is in a favorable location. There in no statement or evidence that Marist has the slightest interest in the Patriot League (or vice versa) or that Marist is anything but thrilled with its current conference affiliation. Marist is to be commended for thriving, upgrading and improving its football program while the rest of former MAAC football foundered and withered around it. That says something about the leadership in Poughkeepsie.

[JU_Dolphin]

No one ought to be out ruffling the Red Fox fur here. Marist seems to be added to the discussion now and again for no other reason than it exists, and is in a favorable location. There in no statement or evidence that Marist has the slightest interest in the Patriot League (or vice versa) or that Marist is anything but thrilled with its current conference affiliation. Marist is to be commended for thriving, upgrading and improving its football program while the rest of former MAAC football foundered and withered around it. That says something about the leadership in Poughkeepsie.

Marist certainly made a sound decision and has made great strides in football. From what I can tell most people associated with Marist are happy with their current position and it's working well for them. Can't see them changing.

[Go...gate]

No one ought to be out ruffling the Red Fox fur here. Marist seems to be added to the discussion now and again for no other reason than it exists, and is in a favorable location. There in no statement or evidence that Marist has the slightest interest in the Patriot League (or vice versa) or that Marist is anything but thrilled with its current conference affiliation. Marist is to be commended for thriving, upgrading and improving its football program while the rest of former MAAC football foundered and withered around it. That says something about the leadership in Poughkeepsie.

Yes, agreed. And Marist should understand that we certainly don't look down our noses at them.

[Go...gate]

I agree. The PL has no direction and member institutions would look down their noses at us.

No thanks.

Don't paint all of us with the same brush.

[maristdb89]

No one ought to be out ruffling the Red Fox fur here. Marist seems to be added to the discussion now and again for no other reason than it exists, and is in a favorable location. There in no statement or evidence that Marist has the slightest interest in the Patriot League (or vice versa) or that Marist is anything but thrilled with its current conference affiliation. Marist is to be commended for thriving, upgrading and improving its football program while the rest of former MAAC football foundered and withered around it. That says something about the leadership in Poughkeepsie.

No worries Bogus. Thanks for some props. We have and look forward to playing PL teams. The PL has been and is a class act. It's just sad that this issue continues to linger and hester. IMHO the league is hurt by inaction/indecision.

[ngineer]

Other than "picking their toes in Poughkeepsie", what do the students do there for fun? (;-)

[maristdb89]

Other than "picking their toes in Poughkeepsie", what do the students do there for fun? (;-)

Go to Vassar to see how the other half lives

[Bogus Megapardus]

Other than "picking their toes in Poughkeepsie", what do the students do there for fun? (;-)

Marist is a very nice campus which sits right on the Hudson River. You can catch a cheap train directly into Grand Central Station, which is more than you can say about a lot of places. Other than that, they do pretty much the same things as kids on any other campus.

[ngineer]

Go to Vassar to see how the other half lives

Ah, yes. I could see some toe-tickling there. BTW, my 'quote' was not meant to be denigrating. That is a famous line from an Academy Award movie many years ago...Anyone??

[TheValleyRaider]

Ah, yes. I could see some toe-tickling there. BTW, my 'quote' was not meant to be denigrating. That is a famous line from an Academy Award movie many years ago...Anyone??

French Connection. As a native of the area, I've heard that one a few (hundred) times xlolx

[maristdb89]

Ah, yes. I could see some toe-tickling there. BTW, my 'quote' was not meant to be denigrating. That is a famous line from an Academy Award movie many years ago...Anyone??

Popeye Boyle - French Connection, great movie

[DFW HOYA]

Back to the issue at hand--what will it take to revisit this issue before Fordham leaves, or even Colgate leaves, whichever comes first?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Back to the issue at hand--what will it take to revisit this issue before Fordham leaves, or even Colgate leaves, whichever comes first?

The Apocalypse?

[DFW HOYA]

This may be the only conference in I-AA where the loss of one full-time school would, by rule, implode the entire conference. Amazing.

[Go...gate]

Taking into consideration the clear absence of consensus on scholarships, the now-likely departure of Fordham, and the seeming lack if interest by Marist is a no-go, where does the PL turn?

Can we keep the conference together?

[ngineer]

Taking into consideration the clear absence of consensus on scholarships, the now-likely departure of Fordham, and the seeming lack if interest by Marist is a no-go, where does the PL turn?

Can we keep the conference together?

They have two years to figure it out. In that time, the landscape in the East could change several times with the potential break up of the CAA, and the NEC going through permutations, or maybe the Big South expanding. I would think Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh will begin planning some kind of "Plan B" together if they see the rest of the PL sitting on their hands as we head into 2012.

[Bogus Megapardus]

They have two years to figure it out. In that time, the landscape in the East could change several times with the potential break up of the CAA, and the NEC going through permutations, or maybe the Big South expanding. I would think Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh will begin planning some kind of "Plan B" together if they see the rest of the PL sitting on their hands as we head into 2012.

Again - where is the report that Lehigh and Colgate actually voted for scholarships last week?

[carney2]

Taking into consideration the clear absence of consensus on scholarships, the now-likely departure of Fordham, and the seeming lack if interest by Marist is a no-go, where does the PL turn?

Can we keep the conference together?

This is beginning to unravel:

BUCKNELL - "Just so this crap doesn't interfere with basketball."

COLGATE - "We want to play with the big kids, but how do we sustain it with home attendance in the 5-6,000 range?"

FORDHAM - "Are we following our basketball program to oblivion? No matter. CHARGE!"

GEORGETOWN - "Don't bother us. We're just doing what we have to do to keep our basketball program in D-1."

HOLY CROSS - "We're nodding at football, but focusing on basketball."

LAFAYETTE - "Can you say 'Division 3?'"

LEHIGH - "We're talking a good game, but so far nothing from the administration."

If you see any true commitment here, just sing it out, because I don't.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Can you say 'Division 3?'



Weiss said previously that Lafayette is staying in FCS. Division III is not on the table. It is senseless even to discuss it.

[DFW HOYA]

GEORGETOWN - "Don't bother us. We're just doing what we have to do to keep our basketball program in D-1."


How exactly does playing in the PL keep Georgetown basketball in Division I? Is Georgetown somehow dropping to Division II without it?

[CFBfan]

This is beginning to unravel:

BUCKNELL - "Just so this crap doesn't interfere with basketball."

COLGATE - "We want to play with the big kids, but how do we sustain it with home attendance in the 5-6,000 range?"

FORDHAM - "Are we following our basketball program to oblivion? No matter. CHARGE!"

GEORGETOWN - "Don't bother us. We're just doing what we have to do to keep our basketball program in D-1."

HOLY CROSS - "We're nodding at football, but focusing on basketball."

LAFAYETTE - "Can you say 'Division 3?'"

LEHIGH - "We're talking a good game, but so far nothing from the administration."

If you see any true commitment here, just sing it out, because I don't.

Wether they are going about it the best way or not aside, I don't think that you could argue against Fordham making the commitment. What the future holds for them remains to be seen.

[ngineer]

Weiss said previously that Lafayette is staying in FCS. Division III is not on the table. It is senseless even to discuss it.

With all the $$ put into your new facilities, I would agree; but Weiss's statements about staying with the IL model make one wonder. If not going down to D-3, all that would be left would be to go PFL (makes no sense with all the travel) or Independent?

[Bogus Megapardus]

With all the $$ put into your new facilities, I would agree; but Weiss's statements about staying with the IL model make one wonder. If not going down to D-3, all that would be left would be to go PFL (makes no sense with all the travel) or Independent?

Lehigh goes where Lafayette goes. It's that simple.

[ngineer]

Lehigh goes where Lafayette goes. It's that simple.

In the end, you may be right, but I don't like where the path seems to be leading; which seems to be deeper into the Land of Make Believe...

[Franks Tanks]

In the end, you may be right, but I don't like where the path seems to be leading; which seems to be deeper into the Land of Make Believe...

This whole scenario is just like b-ball schollys. Why do we have a short memory? One school pushed the b-ball schollys, Holy Cross, and threatened to leave if they didn't get them. The league didn't like it but relented because when push came to shove all parties agreed they needed to stay in the Patriot League. Lafayette stomped their feet and said the wouldn't give schollys -- no way. They did however come to their senses and gave scholalrships in basketball and several other sports. I know football is different and everybody thinks FB players are stupid meatheads, but I think everyone will eventually come to their senses and we will have a scholly PL.

[Fordham]

If it's just like basketball that means that we need to leave first and then have the league give the PL what we were asking for.

[Franks Tanks]

If it's just like basketball that means that we need to leave first and then have the league give the PL what we were asking for.



Yes, I guess you're right. Perhaps the PL will let Fordham leave and then relent when Lehigh or Colgate wants to leave. It seems like very few Fordham fans want the PL anyhow, so I don't know if the marriage is worth saving.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yes, I guess you're right. Perhaps the PL will let Fordham leave and then relent when Lehigh or Colgate wants to leave. It seems like very few Fordham fans want the PL anyhow, so I don't know if the marriage is worth saving.

Let's keep something in mind here - if Fordham leaves, it's just for football. If Colgate or those whinny, self-absorbed Fountain Pigeons leave the Patriot, they take all sports. They cant simply take football someplace else and leave the rest of their sports in the Patriot. Where might Colgate put its lacrosse team, for example? The Patriot already is one of the top Division I lacrosse conferences. Maybe Lehigh plays basketball in the A-10? America East? Would CAA basketball, field hockey or soccer be an upgrade for either of them?

[Fordham]

Yes, I guess you're right. Perhaps the PL will let Fordham leave and then relent when Lehigh or Colgate wants to leave. It seems like very few Fordham fans want the PL anyhow, so I don't know if the marriage is worth saving.

certainly no favors were done on behalf of the relationship this week.

I was always a very pro-PL proponent up until the past year or two when I just had enough of hoping that the PL would finally realize what an amazing opportunity it has to carve out a unique niche in all of big time athletics. Rather, they seem much more intent on navel gazing or else concerned about what the Big Brother Ivies think to capitalize on the opportunities right in front of them imo. It's too bad imo but probably more so why this decision hasn't driven me nuts as much as just reinforced what I already resigned myself to thinking about the league.

There's still a possibility that we'll be a part of things in the future but the chances of that obviously got slimmer with this past week's news.

[Fordham]

Let's keep something in mind here - if Fordham leaves, it's just for football. If Colgate or those whinny, self-absorbed Fountain Pigeons leave the Patriot, they take all sports. They cant simply take football someplace else and leave the rest of their sports in the Patriot. Where might Colgate put its lacrosse team, for example? The Patriot already is one of the top Division I lacrosse conferences. Maybe Lehigh plays basketball in the A-10? America East? Would CAA basketball, field hockey or soccer be an upgrade for either of them? Are you sure they can't do that? I could be wrong but I thought that a school could compete in a different conference if they had a different level of commitment than the conference does. I certainly could be wrong but I thought that there had been discussion that if the A10 formed a new football conference and capped scholarships at 57 or 60 it would still allow the wiggle room for a 63 scholarship Richmond to remain in the CAA if they wanted to (thus preventing Richmond from blocking the formation of the new conference).

That said, it seems pretty clear that losing us plus anyone else means that PL football is dead so while they might be able to do that, I doubt Lehigh or Colgate or whoever would do it easily.

[colorless raider]

certainly no favors were done on behalf of the relationship this week.

I was always a very pro-PL proponent up until the past year or two when I just had enough of hoping that the PL would finally realize what an amazing opportunity it has to carve out a unique niche in all of big time athletics. Rather, they seem much more intent on navel gazing or else concerned about what the Big Brother Ivies think to capitalize on the opportunities right in front of them imo. It's too bad imo but probably more so why this decision hasn't driven me nuts as much as just reinforced what I already resigned myself to thinking about the league.

There's still a possibility that we'll be a part of things in the future but the chances of that obviously got slimmer with this past week's news.

You are right and the league presidents are dead wrong. Misssed a great opportunity.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Are you sure they can't do that? I could be wrong but I thought that a school could compete in a different conference if they had a different level of commitment than the conference does.

I believe that Patriot League rules require full members to play in the league in all sports that they sponsor at that level.

Army and Navy are full members but they play at a different level in football. I don't think Lehigh or Colgate could pull out of the Patriot for football and keep the rest of their sports in the league (unless they became FBS independents if football, in which case they'd get the same dispensation as the Academies).

[DFW HOYA]

I believe that Patriot League rules require full members to play in the league in all sports that they sponsor at that level...I don't think Lehigh or Colgate could pull out of the Patriot for football and keep the rest of their sports in the league (unless they became FBS independents if football, in which case they'd get the same dispensation as the Academies).

The PL bylaws require that a minimum of five full-time members are required to sponsor a sport, so if ANY of the core five left, the PL would have to drop football as a sponsored sport. In that case, the remaining schools could stay in the PL for other sports.

[LURules]

I believe that Patriot League rules require full members to play in the league in all sports that they sponsor at that level.

Army and Navy are full members but they play at a different level in football. I don't think Lehigh or Colgate could pull out of the Patriot for football and keep the rest of their sports in the league (unless they became FBS independents if football, in which case they'd get the same dispensation as the Academies).

If Fordham leaves, any additional departure craters the football league. Five teams and no AQ, thus the could the league still claim to offer a "football league" with no AQ and only four league games.

On a similar note, a Fordham departure leaves all (including GTown) with leverage to push the league. I would expect either Colgate or Lehigh to come out with scholarships. They would have to give up a shot at the AQ for a year or two, esentially competing for the playoffs as an independent, but it would force the issue and take the "clowns" out of the process.

[van]

Getting an at large invite to the playoffs is not as difficult as previously since the playoffs are now at 20 and even rumored to go to 24. Lehigh would have gotten an invite this year without the AQ, IMHO.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I would expect either Colgate or Lehigh to come out with scholarships.

I would expect otherwise. Neither school has made any proclamation about offering scholarships notwithstanding league policy. Although there were statements made more than a year ago suggesting possible support by some, there is no evidence whatsoever that either school voted in favor of scholarships last week.

[LURules]

I would expect otherwise. Neither school has made any proclamation about offering scholarships notwithstanding league policy. Although there were statements made more than a year ago suggesting possible support by some, there is no evidence whatsoever that either school voted in favor of scholarships last week.

Just because the head kitty didn't follow the league request and not make any public statements, does not mean that others should or would. Nor does it indicate what their plans are either way. You clearly have your opinion, but many people have heard otherwise in private conversations ... and No you will not see any public statement one way or another. Your continuing to ask for it does not make your opinion any more correct.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just because the head kitty didn't follow the league request and not make any public statements, does not mean that others should or would. Nor does it indicate what their plans are either way. You clearly have your opinion, but many people have heard otherwise in private conversations ... and No you will not see any public statement one way or another. Your continuing to ask for it does not make your opinion any more correct.

Nor does it make your opinion correct - after all, it merely is is an opinion, like mine.

At least five schools would have had to have voted with Lafayette. The effort by Lehigh posters to paint Lafayette as some sort of lone rouge is as absurd as the notion that Lehigh is somehow on the verge of a national championship, only to be held back by an interview published in Lafayette's school newspaper.

So to resolve this once and for all, Lehigh's supposed vote in favor of scholarships last week is merely the base opinion of the posters here. There is no proof whatsoever of Lehigh's vote. For all you know, Lehigh voted against the measure right along with Lafayette.

Why not just say so?

[aceinthehole]

At least five schools would have had to have voted with Lafayette. The effort by Lehigh posters to paint Lafayette as some sort of lone rouge is as absurd as the notion that Lehigh is somehow on the verge of a national championship, only to be held back by an interview published in Lafayette's school newspaper.

From the press release it sounded like there was NO VOTE - the item was tabled. But since we are just counting straw votes here on this forum let's assume Army, Navy, and American abstained (which has the effect of a "no" vote). It is entirely possible that there were really just 2 other schools ready and willing to vote "no."

[LURules]

From the press release it sounded like there was NO VOTE - the item was tabled. But since we are just counting straw votes here on this forum let's assume Army, Navy, and American abstained (which has the effect of a "no" vote). It is entirely possible that there were really just 2 other schools ready and willing to vote "no."

Exactly, Bogus is posting blind opinion (everyone is entitled) to defend the kitties, no one besides Lafayette has made a public statement because schools were not supposed to make individual statements. His entire arguement is based on not seeing a public statement, which will never occur so no one will get satisfaction in this till the next move is made. Simple fact is that there was only one public statement made and it was a clear "No" by kitties.

The one thing I do agree with is that we will all wait and see what happens. I will be surprised if the Patriot League exists as we know it for the 2013 football season.

[RichH2]

We are truly metaphysical. Reading tea leaves, delving endlessly to find a shred of intent, meaning or blame from NOTHING. I see a lack of will to resove the issue on all sides. Other than that one salient factoid we know NOTHING except that PL continues in limbo for 2 more years . Perhaps we will get good seats as the parade marches by.

[Go...gate]

certainly no favors were done on behalf of the relationship this week.

I was always a very pro-PL proponent up until the past year or two when I just had enough of hoping that the PL would finally realize what an amazing opportunity it has to carve out a unique niche in all of big time athletics. Rather, they seem much more intent on navel gazing or else concerned about what the Big Brother Ivies think to capitalize on the opportunities right in front of them imo. It's too bad imo but probably more so why this decision hasn't driven me nuts as much as just reinforced what I already resigned myself to thinking about the league.

There's still a possibility that we'll be a part of things in the future but the chances of that obviously got slimmer with this past week's news.

If I were Fordham, I would be disqappointed not only at what happened, but how they were marginalized by the rest of the conference.