PFL Solution

[Fear the Bird]

I just noticed both teams are idle this weekend? Why don't Dayton and Jacksonville play a scrimmage at a neutral location and winner gets last spot in playoffs? xlolx

[gophoenix]

There is an easier solution.....

Dayton to the CAA
Davidson to the SoCon
Jacksonville, Campbell to the Big South
Marist to the NEC
Morehead State to the OVC
Butler, Drake and Valpo to MVFC, Southland, OVC
San Diego to the Big Sky

Disband this silly conference and be done with it.

[DFW HOYA]

There is an easier solution.....

Dayton to the CAA
Davidson to the SoCon
Jacksonville, Campbell to the Big South
Marist to the NEC
Morehead State to the OVC
Butler, Drake and Valpo to MVFC, Southland, OVC
San Diego to the Big Sky

Disband this silly conference and be done with it.

If these schools had the financial muscle to play in these other conferences, they would...but they don't, which is why the PFL even exists in the first place.

[GSUhooligan]

If these schools had the financial muscle to play in these other conferences, they would...but they don't, which is why the PFL even exists in the first place.

But they have the money to take 100 people all across the country? That can't be cheap.

[DFW HOYA]

But they have the money to take 100 people all across the country? That can't be cheap.

It's cheaper to take two or three plane trips a season than float 60 scholarships.

[GSUhooligan]

It's cheaper to take two or three plane trips a season than float 60 scholarships.

Do teams have to field all scholarships to be in auto-bid conferences? Genuine question b/c I don't know.

[gophoenix]

Do teams have to field all scholarships to be in auto-bid conferences? Genuine question b/c I don't know.

No, they don't. Which is why i made the comment. Charleston Southern was completely non-scholarship for the first part of the Big South tenure. I give them props, they took their licks.

The problem is, these schools don't want to be in conferences where they know they'll lose. They would rather play a completely weak schedule against each other and then have two teams whine each year about how they should be in the playoffs.

1 Charter flight for 100 people = a 737, A319 or A320. The planes can be leased by companies like Allegiant Air or others for $11,000 an hour (not including ferry, and crew prep before and after) to the high end of $21,000 an hour for someone like Southwest.

1 Flight for an eastern school to the west will be 6 hours minimum, or roughly the equivalent of maybe 4-8 scholarships depending on the school. To the Midwest from the South, will be half that. And Midwest to the west or South would be half that.

All in all, in one season, you could probably fund 20-25 scholarships from the air travel savings spent in the Pioneer.

[gophoenix]

It's cheaper to take two or three plane trips a season than float 60 scholarships.

Conferences do not require scholarships. It maybe hinder admission for some, but for teams like Campbel, Davidsonl and Morehead State, they are already members of a conference sponsoring said sport. And I don't think some of the others would be denied. Plus there's the whole A-10 vs CAA thing that would help Dayton.

Funding 60-63 scholarships is done by only about 30 of the FCS schools anyway.

[danefan]

No, they don't. Which is why i made the comment. Charleston Southern was completely non-scholarship for the first part of the Big South tenure. I give them props, they took their licks.

The problem is, these schools don't want to be in conferences where they know they'll lose. They would rather play a completely weak schedule against each other and then have two teams whine each year about how they should be in the playoffs.

1 Charter flight for 100 people = a 737, A319 or A320. The planes can be leased by companies like Allegiant Air or others for $11,000 an hour (not including ferry, and crew prep before and after) to the high end of $21,000 an hour for someone like Southwest.

1 Flight for an eastern school to the west will be 6 hours minimum, or roughly the equivalent of maybe 4-8 scholarships depending on the school. To the Midwest from the South, will be half that. And Midwest to the west or South would be half that.

All in all, in one season, you could probably fund 20-25 scholarships from the air travel savings spent in the Pioneer.


I can see why you have formed your opinion - your financial analysis is pretty much as far from the truth as you can get.

PFL teams spend roughly 100-200k a year on travel. They have limited rosters for in-conference travel (55), they fly commercial (no charters) and they pool resources to offset the added expenses of teams like Jacksonville, Marist and San Diego which are at opposite sides of the country.

In other words they spend the equivalent of 2-4 scholarships at some of the private schools in the league.

And yet somehow teams like Dayton and Jacksonville have been able to put a product on the field consistently equal to or better than about 50% of the full scholarship FCS teams in the country. Maybe the full scholarships FCS teams should be looking deaper into the PFL model?

[Franks Tanks]

No, they don't. Which is why i made the comment. Charleston Southern was completely non-scholarship for the first part of the Big South tenure. I give them props, they took their licks.

The problem is, these schools don't want to be in conferences where they know they'll lose. They would rather play a completely weak schedule against each other and then have two teams whine each year about how they should be in the playoffs.

1 Charter flight for 100 people = a 737, A319 or A320. The planes can be leased by companies like Allegiant Air or others for $11,000 an hour (not including ferry, and crew prep before and after) to the high end of $21,000 an hour for someone like Southwest.

1 Flight for an eastern school to the west will be 6 hours minimum, or roughly the equivalent of maybe 4-8 scholarships depending on the school. To the Midwest from the South, will be half that. And Midwest to the west or South would be half that.

All in all, in one season, you could probably fund 20-25 scholarships from the air travel savings spent in the Pioneer.

Well the problem is that most of the PFL school are private schools with tuition in the 35-50k per year range. The travel is cheaper than the scholarships for these schools.

[401ks]

1 Charter flight for 100 people = a 737, A319 or A320. The planes can be leased by companies like Allegiant Air or others for $11,000 an hour (not including ferry, and crew prep before and after) to the high end of $21,000 an hour for someone like Southwest.

1 Flight for an eastern school to the west will be 6 hours minimum, or roughly the equivalent of maybe 4-8 scholarships depending on the school. To the Midwest from the South, will be half that. And Midwest to the west or South would be half that.

All in all, in one season, you could probably fund 20-25 scholarships from the air travel savings spent in the Pioneer.

xeyebrowx

A.) PFL teams fly commercial.

B.) PFL teams "pool" their money with the league each year so that teams like San Diego do not have an inordinate burden regarding travel costs. Therefore, travel costs are paid by the league and travel expenses are a set, knowable amount each year.

C.) PFL travel squads are limited to 55 players.

D.) Tuition/R&B/etc. costs at most of these private schools that make up the PFL are closing in on $40,000/year. That would be around $2,500,000/year for a fully-funded 63-scholarship program. PFL teams could play multiple games each year in Fiji and Tahiti for that kind of money!

[gophoenix]

Well the problem is that most of the PFL school are private schools with tuition in the 35-50k per year range. The travel is cheaper than the scholarships for these schools.

Go re-read my post.

[401ks]

I can see why you have formed your opinion - your financial analysis is pretty much as far from the truth as you can get.

PFL teams spend roughly 100-200k a year on travel. They have limited rosters for in-conference travel (55), they fly commercial (no charters) and they pool resources to offset the added expenses of teams like Jacksonville, Marist and San Diego which are at opposite sides of the country.

In other words they spend the equivalent of 2-4 scholarships at some of the private schools in the league.

And yet somehow teams like Dayton and Jacksonville have been able to put a product on the field consistently equal to or better than about 50% of the full scholarship FCS teams in the country. Maybe the full scholarships FCS teams should be looking deaper into the PFL model?

You're a quicker man than I, danefan!

xlolx

[401ks]

Go re-read my post.

I did.

You're still wrong.

[danefan]

You're a quicker man than I, danefan!

xlolx

I should just save the post and cut and paste becuase I'm pretty sure I've made the same one 100 times in the last 3 years when Patty V made it clear why Marist was joining the PFL.

[Franks Tanks]

Go re-read my post.

I understand the point, but competing in one of the power conferences without scholarships, or very limited scholarships, would be murder. Davidson for example cannot compete in the SoCon without scholarships and their extremely high academic standards. Davidson was an original member of the PL and left because they felt they couldn't compete in the Patriot, they wouldn't have a prayer in the SoCon.

[chattanoogamocs]

No, they don't. Which is why i made the comment. Charleston Southern was completely non-scholarship for the first part of the Big South tenure. I give them props, they took their licks.

The problem is, these schools don't want to be in conferences where they know they'll lose. They would rather play a completely weak schedule against each other and then have two teams whine each year about how they should be in the playoffs.

1 Charter flight for 100 people = a 737, A319 or A320. The planes can be leased by companies like Allegiant Air or others for $11,000 an hour (not including ferry, and crew prep before and after) to the high end of $21,000 an hour for someone like Southwest.

1 Flight for an eastern school to the west will be 6 hours minimum, or roughly the equivalent of maybe 4-8 scholarships depending on the school. To the Midwest from the South, will be half that. And Midwest to the west or South would be half that.

All in all, in one season, you could probably fund 20-25 scholarships from the air travel savings spent in the Pioneer.

I am glad Davidson doesn't play football in the SoCon...before they left, IIRC, they only won 3-4 games (total) over about a 10 year stretch.

All that would do is pull down the strength of the entire conference. Davidson doesn't want to fund scholarships and they don't want to field a team that is going to get beat badly every weekend...I'm cool with that.

I have no complaint with the PFL...I just have a complaint with people who vote their teams in the top 25, pretty much based on record only. Just my opinion. :)

[GSUhooligan]

I understand the point, but competing in one of the power conferences without scholarships, or very limited scholarships, would be murder. Davidson for example cannot compete in the SoCon without scholarships and their extremely high academic standards. Davidson was an original member of the PL and left because they felt they couldn't compete in the Patriot, they wouldn't have a prayer in the SoCon.

How can Furman and Wofford afford it and be competitive with their high tuition costs and similar academic standards?

[Franks Tanks]

How can Furman and Wofford afford it and be competitive with their high tuition costs and similar academic standards?

Furman and Wofford made a strategic decision to compete in the SoCon. Davidson could do it if they really wanted to, but they made the decision that fully funded FCS football does not meet their goals. My point was that under their current set-up Davidson would have no prayer.

VMI is fully funded or close to it and even they decided they couldn't compete in the SoCon.

[bluehenbillk]

There is an easier solution.....

Dayton to the CAA
Davidson to the SoCon
Jacksonville, Campbell to the Big South
Marist to the NEC
Morehead State to the OVC
Butler, Drake and Valpo to MVFC, Southland, OVC
San Diego to the Big Sky

Disband this silly conference and be done with it.

What grudge do you have with Dayton to assign them the Baatan Death March?

[chattanoogamocs]

How can Furman and Wofford afford it and be competitive with their high tuition costs and similar academic standards?

Pretty simple...Furman is terrible at basketball (and until last year, so was Wofford).

Davidson puts their money in basketball, Furman and Wofford puts their's in football.

Wofford basketball has been the whipping boy for the school to have good football for years (sometimes playing as many as 6 gaurantee games)...the year they had last season was a minor miracle in my opinion, though Mike Young deserves a lot of credit. But, if you look historically, that was only their 2nd winning record since joining DI...and Young has managed to win on a shoestring budget.

[401ks]

How can Furman and Wofford afford it and be competitive with their high tuition costs and similar academic standards?

Priorities.

Not making any sort of value judgement here, but it's just a matter of what an institution considers to be its priorities.

Most schools in the Furman, Wofford, Davidson academic category do not play Division I football, or do not field a football team at all!

[DFW HOYA]

Most schools in the Furman, Wofford, Davidson academic category do not play Division I football, or do not field a football team at all!

What category are you referring to? As liberal arts colleges go, neither Furman or Wofford ranks in the top 40 in the US News survey. Furman's accept rate is 68%. All three are small to medium sized liberal arts colleges, but are not seeking to be Ivy League or major research universities to begin with.

[401ks]

What category are you referring to? As liberal arts colleges go, neither Furman or Wofford ranks in the top 40 in the US News survey. Furman's accept rate is 68%. All three are small to medium sized liberal arts colleges, but are not seeking to be Ivy League or major research universities to begin with.

I was just going with the schools that GSUhooligan mentioned and giving him/her the benefit of the doubt regarding academic standards.

Do you have a problem with my statement: "Most schools in the Furman, Wofford, Davidson academic category do not play Division I football, or do not field a football team at all!" whatever those academic standards might be?

Did I compare them to Ivy League schools or major research universities?

If those comparisons were used, the Ivy League does sponsor football and many (most?) major research universities sponsor FBS football. Apples and oranges.

I fail to see your point.

[DFW HOYA]

I think I understand the point better now, namely, that not all schools of their size play at this competitive level. Most liberal arts schools are Division III at this point.

[Milktruck74]

I understand the point, but competing in one of the power conferences without scholarships, or very limited scholarships, would be murder. Davidson for example cannot compete in the SoCon without scholarships and their extremely high academic standards. Davidson was an original member of the PL and left because they felt they couldn't compete in the Patriot, they wouldn't have a prayer in the SoCon.

Don't fool yourself. I guarantee you 75% of the PLF Athletes receive some type of financial aid. It is really no different than DIII. The best DIII teams are the ones with the most "Need Based" Aid to offer.....I NEED you to play for us. We talk about scholarship vs non-scholarship, when infact we should better define it as Scholarship based on play vs Scholarship based on need/academics. I would bet a school like Davidson would only have to fund about 20 scholarships to augment the funds already received by their athletes to be the full strength of 63.

[DFW HOYA]

I would bet a school like Davidson would only have to fund about 20 scholarships to augment the funds already received by their athletes to be the full strength of 63.

If you think Davidson is at 40 equivalencies, I don't know what to say. Georgetown beat them and GU is reputed to be at or near zero.

[401ks]

If you think Davidson is at 40 equivalencies, I don't know what to say. Georgetown beat them and GU is reputed to be at or near zero.

It's today's cable "news"-inspired reality, DFW HOYA.

"If you think it, it will be true."

"Facts? We don't need no stinkin' facts!"

xlolx

[Milktruck74]

If you think Davidson is at 40 equivalencies, I don't know what to say. Georgetown beat them and GU is reputed to be at or near zero.

I'm not saying they are using them correctly, but the best DIII coaches are also really good salesmen. They aren't competing with the SEC or Big 10 for players. They have to sell potential players and families on the quality of education, playing time, ect. and tell them we will work on how to get it paid for. A majority of FCS rosters are full of partial scholarships, and DII rarely gives full rides anymore. It can be done, schools just have to be creative.

[401ks]

Don't fool yourself. I guarantee you 75% of the PLF (sic) Athletes receive some type of financial aid. It is really no different than DIII. The best DIII teams are the ones with the most "Need Based" Aid to offer.....I NEED you to play for us. We talk about scholarship vs non-scholarship, when infact (sic) we should better define it as (Athletic) Scholarship based on play vs Scholarship based on need/academics. I would bet a school like Davidson would only have to fund about 20 scholarships to augment the funds already received by their athletes to be the full strength of 63.

Let's draw a picture...

This is Academic/Need-based Scholarship money (for everyone except students from poverty-stricken families with 4.2 GPAs and 2200 SATs): $

This is Full Athletic Scholarship money: $

And I would correct your statement to read: "I guarantee you 95% of the PLF (sic) Athletes receive some type of financial aid." "Some type" could be as little as a $500 academic grant, and often is exactly that!

[BigApp]

And yet somehow teams like Dayton and Jacksonville have been able to put a product on the field consistently equal to or better than about 50% of the full scholarship FCS teams in the country.

are you serious

[Milktruck74]

It's today's cable "news"-inspired reality, DFW HOYA.

"If you think it, it will be true."

"Facts? We don't need no stinkin' facts!"

xlolx

So I will admit I was a bit high on my 75%. of the last reported class at Davidson 44% received need based aid averaging $32,500, 7% received Merit based aid averaging $20,000 and 7% received Athletic aid. That is 51% receiving Merit or need based aid. Using these numbers as averages and 101 athletes on their roster that is $1.585MM in scholarship money received by the football team. Davidson's full tuition and fees including room and board meal plan is $47,000 per year. so that means using averages, they have 33.74 full scholarships on their squad. Again they aren't that far off of fully funding their program. My point was that what we refer to as "Non-Scholarship schools" is quite misleading.

[FargoBison]

And yet somehow teams like Dayton and Jacksonville have been able to put a product on the field consistently equal to or better than about 50% of the full scholarship FCS teams in the country. Maybe the full scholarships FCS teams should be looking deaper into the PFL model?

You can't say that, Dayton and Jacksonville don't play a full MVFC, SoCon, CAA or Big Sky schedule and it wouldn't be pretty if they did. Depth, depth, depth.

[DFW HOYA]

So I will admit I was a bit high on my 75%. of the last reported class at Davidson 44% received need based aid averaging $32,500, 7% received Merit based aid averaging $20,000 and 7% received Athletic aid. That is 51% receiving Merit or need based aid. Using these numbers as averages and 101 athletes on their roster that is $1.585MM in scholarship money received by the football team. Davidson's full tuition and fees including room and board meal plan is $47,000 per year. so that means using averages, they have 33.74 full scholarships on their squad. Again they aren't that far off of fully funding their program. My point was that what we refer to as "Non-Scholarship schools" is quite misleading.

Here's the missing piece to your extrapolation--not all need based aid is outright grants. At many schools, loans fulfill a large share of need based aid.

If a kid at Davidson has $23,500 of need but $18,800 of it is filled by loans and work study and $4,700 is a grant, it is still a half scholarship in your view...or merely a tenth of one?

[401ks]

So I will admit I was a bit high on my 75%.

Actually, I still think that you were a bit low overall!

Jeez! Little wonder that Davidson has a reputation for being a "rich kids' school"! Dayton (for example) reports that "over 90%" of students at Dayton receive some sort of financial aid.

While this may not be a "politically correct" observation, the reality is that football players often come from lower economic situations and command more need-based aid than your "average" student at the private institutions that dominate the PFL.

However, the bottom line is this...

40% - 75% - 95% - whatever - getting some sort of aid does not translate into athletic scholarship equivalencies.

There seems to be this thought that the bean-counters at PFL institutions aren't giving their football teams athletic scholarship money because they want them to be perpetual underdogs on the playing field. It's as though simply switching the money from this pot to that pot would magically allow these schools to offer 63 full athletic scholarships for football! xrolleyesx Don't even get me started on Title IX!

And Santa Claus will bring you that Ferrari that you asked for this Christmas!

xlmaox

[BlueHenSinfonian]

How is the PL, which is non-scholly, halfway competitive while the PFL seems to struggle in the same situations? The PL even gets an autobid.

[Milktruck74]

Here's the missing piece to your extrapolation--not all need based aid is outright grants. At many schools, loans fulfill a large share of need based aid.

If a kid at Davidson has $23,500 of need but $18,800 of it is filled by loans and work study and $4,700 is a grant, it is still a half scholarship in your view...or merely a tenth of one?

Actually Davidson had the Davidson Trust which ensures that all financial aid is a grant, not a loan. I know this is different than most schools, but you did use Davidson as your example.

[401ks]

How is the PL, which is non-scholly, halfway competitive while the PFL seems to struggle in the same situations? The PL even gets an autobid.

The Patriot League (PL) offers scholarship "equivalencies" in the form of need-based aid that is only available to football players. The NCAA does not consider the PL to be "non-scholarship".

[Milktruck74]

A
And Santa Claus will bring you that Ferrari that you asked for this Christmas!

xlmaox

Had one for about 6 months, and hated it. I'm WAY too FAT for italian sports cars. I actually prefer a 67 deville convertable.

[heath]

Here's the missing piece to your extrapolation--not all need based aid is outright grants. At many schools, loans fulfill a large share of need based aid.

If a kid at Davidson has $23,500 of need but $18,800 of it is filled by loans and work study and $4,700 is a grant, it is still a half scholarship in your view...or merely a tenth of one?

Unless you've been through it with a recruit you would be amazed at the "so-called" need base $ schools can come up with.If they want you,the money is there without loans. Between need based aid,athletic aid and 'special grants' through football,schools can cover close to 75-80% of tution/room and board.Each school has so many dollars to work with each year,so depending on the # of recruits,money is there..............yes at PFL and PL schools.

[Franks Tanks]

The Patriot League (PL) offers scholarship "equivalencies" in the form of need-based aid that is only available to football players. The NCAA does not consider the PL to be "non-scholarship".

Correct. The money given to Patriot League football players is really football scholarship money, but the amount of money a player gets is determined by their financial need.

[heath]

Correct. The money given to Patriot League football players is really football scholarship money, but the amount of money a player gets is determined by their financial need.

Or how bad that PL team 'needs' that player 'based' upon his skills.Same with the PFL but less $,but thats OK because their tuitions are lower.

[blukeys]

Correct. The money given to Patriot League football players is really football scholarship money, but the amount of money a player gets is determined by their financial need.

We have discissed this it seems every year. The PL uses needs based grants in aid for athletes. (although basketball players get scholarships)

In needs based Grants in aid, an athlete fills out a financial aid application which is the same application for a non athlete. Based on this application the amount of aid is determined for which the athlete is eligible. So far this is the same process for a non athletic applicant. Typically, the largest part of the aid comes in the form of loans. The grants in aid covers the part of the financial aid for the athlete that would be a loan to a standard athlete.

For instance If the total bill for a PL student is $40,000 and it is determined that he/she should receive $30,000 based on their financial aid application then the regular student would receive a $30,000 loan. The athlete would receive a grant in aid for the $30,000 instead of a loan. For both applicants a $10,000 balance would still be there. The non athlete would incur a debt that would have to be paid after graduation. A scholarship takes care of the $40,000.

This is over simplified. I was a student at Delaware while they did Grants in aid and most football players qualified for full grants to cover the entire tuition. Delaware became scollie as a requirement of joining the Yankee Conference.

[Franks Tanks]

Or how bad that PL team 'needs' that player 'based' upon his skills.Same with the PFL but less $,but thats OK because their tuitions are lower.

The PFL differs because the aid isnt related to football. If the player quits the team they will still recieve the same amount of aid. At a Patriot League school aid will be significantly reduced if the player quits.

A player is supposed to recieve the same amount of aid at any PL school. That however doesn't always occur. Way back in the Bill Russo era Lafayette key players got more aid from Lafayette than other schools. I would ask a teamate "Why did you decide on Lafayette" and they would often reply "I got more money here than I did from Colgate or Bucknell".

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Conferences do not require scholarships. It maybe hinder admission for some, but for teams like Campbel, Davidsonl and Morehead State, they are already members of a conference sponsoring said sport. And I don't think some of the others would be denied. Plus there's the whole A-10 vs CAA thing that would help Dayton.

Funding 60-63 scholarships is done by only about 30 of the FCS schools anyway.

I'm curious about where you got the number of FCS schools that give the full compliment of scholarships. Off of the top of my head, I would assume that all of the CAA, SoCon, Big Sky schools give every scholarship they can, which covers 28 teams right there.

[gophoenix]

I'm curious about where you got the number of FCS schools that give the full compliment of scholarships. Off of the top of my head, I would assume that all of the CAA, SoCon, Big Sky schools give every scholarship they can, which covers 28 teams right there.

I stand corrected in that Pioneer teams fly commercial, which I didn't know and that changes things a lot. I would still make the case that it makes way more sense for the teams like Morehead to be in the OVC and Jacksonville and Campbell to go to the Big South.

The truth is, the Pioneer teams choose to distance themselves from the rest of FCS until the time comes for playoffs and then the fans demand inclusion. After all these years, put up and come to the FCS and play the FCS in real FCS conferences rather than formign a conference the artificially makes the teams better. This isn't like the Big South or NEC where teams are entrenched and a majority of the teams there participate in that conference. This is a group of schools in conferences with other FCS programs for their other sports who choose to play somewhere else for football, despite the reason. If Dayton and Jacksonville put a product on the field better than 50% of the teams elsewhere, ten there should be no problem with them in the real conferences.

As for my number, it was based of numbers a few years ago from a report... showing Wofford at 50, Towson at 50, half the MEAC was 50 or below at the time, 4 teams from the SWCS below 50. TN Martin was at 30-some. Nicholls was lower and so on.

[FargoBison]

I'm curious about where you got the number of FCS schools that give the full compliment of scholarships. Off of the top of my head, I would assume that all of the CAA, SoCon, Big Sky schools give every scholarship they can, which covers 28 teams right there.

The number is at least double 30.

[DFW HOYA]

The PFL differs because the aid isnt related to football. If the player quits the team they will still recieve the same amount of aid. At a Patriot League school aid will be significantly reduced if the player quits.


Disagree, at least as far as Georgetown is concerned.

Since Georgetown has so little aid devoted specific to football, need based aid is virtually the same regardless if he is playing football, and the impact is minimal if the player leaves...which may explain why there are 15 seniors playing their final game this weekend and 14 others that quit but are still in school.

Attrition is a bigger problem with the junior class, with started with 32 and is already down to 15. Too soon to say how many return for another year.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I stand corrected in that Pioneer teams fly commercial, which I didn't know and that changes things a lot. I would still make the case that it makes way more sense for the teams like Morehead to be in the OVC and Jacksonville and Campbell to go to the Big South.

The truth is, the Pioneer teams choose to distance themselves from the rest of FCS until the time comes for playoffs and then the fans demand inclusion. After all these years, put up and come to the FCS and play the FCS in real FCS conferences rather than formign a conference the artificially makes the teams better. This isn't like the Big South or NEC where teams are entrenched and a majority of the teams there participate in that conference. This is a group of schools in conferences with other FCS programs for their other sports who choose to play somewhere else for football, despite the reason. If Dayton and Jacksonville put a product on the field better than 50% of the teams elsewhere, ten there should be no problem with them in the real conferences.

As for my number, it was based of numbers a few years ago from a report... showing Wofford at 50, Towson at 50, half the MEAC was 50 or below at the time, 4 teams from the SWCS below 50. TN Martin was at 30-some. Nicholls was lower and so on.

If Towson only uses 50 that could explain a few things, but that is still fairly close to the full amount

I see the PFL as an option for schools that want to offer football as more than a club sport, and want to compete in Div I in other sports, but don't want to invest the money to make a competitive football program. If the NCAA would remove the rule saying that a school must play in the same division in all sports, I have a feeling a lot of these schools would drop to Div II or Div III for football, which would probably make a lot of sense for them, and allow them to play in regional conferences. The 'same division for all sports' rule is a bit silly anyway, and I can't see any good purpose for it. Let schools decide which programs they want to invest the money into, and don't force them to try to spread everything equally across the board.

With all that being said, I do think that a PFL team that wins the conference out should have a chance at the playoffs. Just because the general level of teams in the PFL is lower than that of other conferences doesn't mean that the best among them wouldn't stack up against the better conference teams.

Some of the current PFL teams could probably compete to a degree inside of the top conferences. Jacksonville would probably have made a title run in the Big South this year, and Dayton could probably have a winning record in the NEC (putting them in the CAA would have been a recipe for a 1 or 2 win season), as for the others, it might be a stretch. Valpo would probably have trouble playing in some of the better Div III conferences, and Campbell might not fare much better.

[Franks Tanks]

Disagree, at least as far as Georgetown is concerned.

Since Georgetown has so little aid devoted specific to football, need based aid is virtually the same regardless if he is playing football, and the impact is minimal if the player leaves...which may explain why there are 15 seniors playing their final game this weekend and 14 others that quit but are still in school.

I guess Georgetown is different. I saw teamates quit and have their aid reduced by 5 figures per year.

[401ks]

Had one for about 6 months, and hated it. I'm WAY too FAT for italian sports cars. I actually prefer a 67 deville convertable.

Old School, baby!

xthumbsupx

http://www.med-user.net/~eldoradoseville/files/67nightshootinge6mf0909_4_7a.jpg

[gophoenix]

If Towson only uses 50 that could explain a few things, but that is still fairly close to the full amount

I see the PFL as an option for schools that want to offer football as more than a club sport, and want to compete in Div I in other sports, but don't want to invest the money to make a competitive football program. If the NCAA would remove the rule saying that a school must play in the same division in all sports, I have a feeling a lot of these schools would drop to Div II or Div III for football, which would probably make a lot of sense for them, and allow them to play in regional conferences. The 'same division for all sports' rule is a bit silly anyway, and I can't see any good purpose for it. Let schools decide which programs they want to invest the money into, and don't force them to try to spread everything equally across the board.

With all that being said, I do think that a PFL team that wins the conference out should have a chance at the playoffs. Just because the general level of teams in the PFL is lower than that of other conferences doesn't mean that the best among them wouldn't stack up against the better conference teams.

Some of the current PFL teams could probably compete to a degree inside of the top conferences. Jacksonville would probably have made a title run in the Big South this year, and Dayton could probably have a winning record in the NEC (putting them in the CAA would have been a recipe for a 1 or 2 win season), as for the others, it might be a stretch. Valpo would probably have trouble playing in some of the better Div III conferences, and Campbell might not fare much better.

Add to that, Charleston Southern was around 16 at the time of the report. And so on, I have no idea how teams stack up now, at the time, Elon was at 48 too. So it's not like I am making it look like something bad, Elon was down there too.

Campbell is getting better though

[Model Citizen]

Occasional charters when the destination is attractive to fans...some of them enjoy paying a share of the costs and traveling with the team. 55 players plus coaches won't fill an airplane, but generous fans can make it work.

Donors have stepped up in some cases to pick up the extra cost of this convenience.

[gophoenix]

Occasional charters when the destination is attractive to fans...some of them enjoy paying a share of the costs and traveling with the team. 55 players plus coaches won't fill an airplane, but generous fans can make it work.

Donors have stepped up in some cases to pick up the extra cost of this convenience.

Depending on the type of airplane, it will fill it. 55 players, plus coaches, plus a few local media, plus admins, plus ATCs.

[gophoenix]

The fact of the matter is, Schools like Elon, Furman, The Citadel and Wofford and plenty of others take their licks in other sports to be in a single conference for all sports. The fact that certain football teams choose not to is nothing but an excuse. I'm sorry if Davidson would get crushed in the SoCon. Look at how the Elon, The Citadel and Wofford have struggled in men's basketball. You don't see them off in some non-scholarship conference for basketball only..... this applies to plenty of others sports across the board for so many FCS type teams.

The deal is, football is really the only place you see a conference like the Pioneer with the excuse used by the Pioneer schools.....

[Go...gate]

Old School, baby!

xthumbsupx

http://www.med-user.net/~eldoradoseville/files/67nightshootinge6mf0909_4_7a.jpg

A REAL car.

[401ks]

The deal is, football is really the only place you see conferences like the Ivy and the Pioneer with the excuse used by the Ivy and the Pioneer schools.....

FIFY


Look at how the Elon, The Citadel and Wofford have struggled in men's basketball. You don't see them off in some non-scholarship conference for basketball only.....

This discussion has official gone down the rabbit hole.

xnutsx

[chattanoogamocs]

Had one for about 6 months, and hated it. I'm WAY too FAT for italian sports cars. I actually prefer a 67 deville convertable.

Off topic, but here is my Italian child...

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-ash1/v333/137/70/707867585/n707867585_1394469_241.jpg
(1972 Vespa Rally 180)