Delaware Defense

[Saint3333]

Interesting stats from the Delaware defense. Until Saturday vs. UMass, Delaware had not allowed more than 17 points in any game. Looking into the national rankings I noticed that Delaware has the 12th best rush D and 7th best pass eff. D, but ranks 107 and 108 in sacks and tackles for losses respectively.

http://web1.ncaa.org/football/exec/rankingSummary?year=2010&org=180

This is very usual.

Two questions -

1) my assumption is Delaware's back seven must be amazing and their front four are space eaters allowing the back seven to fly around the ball, but their lack of speed prevents them from getting in the backfield. What is their base defense and are my assumptions correct?

2) What did UMass do that worked against UD?

[Oldhen]

UD's defensive scheme does not attack the LOS very often. The DL's try to control the LOS and contain running QB's... they actually put controlled pressure on the passer with a four man rush pretty well but don't stunt at all or blitz too often and rarely attack the gaps with LB's or S's. The back seven is the heart of the D. LB's are very active and aggressive. A couple of graduating DB seniors there will get a good hard look at the next level. No real stars on the D... just a good unit that plays well together.

UMass has quite a talented offense. They had the UD D back on their heels much of the first half. They scored on a flea-flicker and broke a couple of long runs (good RB's). It really wasn't anything about their scheme... just well-executed plays by talented players.

(PS... their base D is a 4-3, and they don't deviate from that)

[GannonFan]

Agreed - Delaware gets a lot of pressure, but it tends to be very controlled. They collapse the pocket well and contain Qb's. And yes, the back 7 is fantastic. Two very good corners in Grant and Walters and two good safeties in Bratton and Jones (transfer from NU). And the linebackers headed by a finally healthy, 6 year Sr in Marcorelle are very active. And they rotate a lot of people on the D-line so they stay rested during the game. But the back 7 make the defense go.

As for UMass, Oldhen is right - Umass is just very talented on offense and they can run and pass both fairly well. Couple that with them playing their last home game in a game they had to have to make the playoffs, and they were highly motivated.

But a key stat from that game - UMass was only 2 of 12 on third downs. The game before that Towson didn't convert a single 3rd down conversion. And look at UD's red zone defense - opponents have only gotten there 24 times and they only scored 14 times (10 of them being TD's). It's just real tough to score against UD.

[Nebuta]

2) What did UMass do that worked against UD?

I watched the game and there was a couple of things I observed.

At the beginning of the game, it looked like it was going to be an offensive shoot out.
UMass had a nice balanced attack and had some big plays. The RB broke off 2x 50+ yard runs. The flee flicker TD was a nice individual play by the WR.

I think some of the reason was the good field position. UD kickoff coverage did team no favors. UMass KR is pretty special. I think the only time they didnt have the ball on their 35-45 yard line was the time they muffed the reverse handoff. UMass had good field position after kickoff returns throughout the day. I was just waiting for one to be taken back to the house.

The 1st half UMass was moving the ball and their kicker couldnt hit the side of a barn if he was in it. 2nd half UD D seemed to settle down.

[Saint3333]

Thanks for the info guys, sounds like some serious talent in that back 7. Would you say UMass was the best offense UD has faced this year? How many good WRs does UMass have?

[Umass74]

Well, I was there and besides the points we scored, UMass moved to the Hens' 30 yard line or closer five more times, and came up with zero points. Our kicker missed three field goals, two of the twenty-yard variety. With UMass on the Delaware 30 yard line, our QB was not looking for the snap and ended up booting the ball back a bunch of yards. In the last three minutes, he threw a INT in the Hen endzone with no UMass receiver within five yards of where he threw it.

UMass averaged 6.8 yards a carry. Suffice it to say we could have done better...

That said, Delaware may have won anyway. They are a very efficient team with no serious weaknesses. The Hens are going to be a load in the playoffs

[GannonFan]

Thanks for the info guys, sounds like some serious talent in that back 7. Would you say UMass was the best offense UD has faced this year? How many good WRs does UMass have?

Certainly the best offense. At least a pair of good WR's, a good TE, and all 3 RB's are good, along with a real active OL. Havens isn't the best passer in the world, but he can get on a hot streak. Outside of UD, they have the best offense in the CAA.

[Maroon&White]

UMass averaged 6.8 yards a carry. Suffice it to say we could have done better...


That's not true, he threw a little behind the attended receiver. Not sure who it was, but he was close.

GannonFan, I think you mistook UDs 3 good RBs for UMass' two in Hernandez and Griffin. xlolx UMass does have 3 good receivers and the fr. TE has turned into a huge threat.

[Umass74]

UMass' best receiver is Anthony Nelson (http://www.umassathletics.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/nelson_anthony00.html), a senior transfer from Hofstra.

He had 250 all-purpose yards against the Hens: 137 yards in kickoff returns, 51 punt return yards, 44 yards receiving and 18 yards rushing.

[UncleSam]

UMass was by far the best offense that UD has seen this year. Anyone who faces the Minutemen if they make the playoffs will probably have to score 30+ points to beat them.

[bluehenbillk]

UMass' offense did very well. I'll attribute it to the fact they were the 1st team UD played that could truly really hurt you both through the air & the ground. Hernandez is a very good back & they have 2 good WR's. Havens is up & down, made some good throws and missed some open guys.

UD's back 7 really is the best back 7 in the country. The Hens get pressure on QB's quite a bit, they just don't get tons of sacks. They haven't been behind that much either this year so they've been somewhat conservative. The stats they're putting up on both sides of the ball now are quite impressive. The D has been stellar all year, now the O has put up 48 & 45 in consecutive weeks. Watch out....

[blukeys]

John Griffin the transfer from Northeastern is also a load. Umass hit the jackpot in the Hofstra/Northeastern debacle.

[YoUDeeMan]

UMass was by far the best offense that UD has seen this year. Anyone who faces the Minutemen if they make the playoffs will probably have to score 30+ points to beat them.

Saw a bracket with ASU and UMass in a second round game. Won't happen...UMass and UD will most likely be in the same bracket...regionalization.

But ASU/UMass would be a great game. xnodx

[Oldhen]

Well, I was there and besides the points we scored, UMass moved to the Hens' 30 yard line or closer five more times, and came up with zero points. Our kicker missed three field goals, two of the twenty-yard variety. UMass averaged 6.8 yards a carry. Suffice it to say we could have done better...

First half, I thought the game could go either way if UMass got their act together. Both teams were tight and making mistakes... like Devlin's first pick in something like 200 passes (he had one early in the season that was on a deflected ball) and Pierce's first ever fumble in over 200 touches. I don't think either team had a real edge in uncharacteristic mistakes, and UMass has a very dynamic offense. I thought UD was pretty much in control of the game after halftime.

[umassfan]

The big play was the bs pass int call where UD scored a td on the next play. UMass was down 10 at the time and stopped them. Could have gone either way if UMass went down and scored off of that instead of UDs long td run. UD has the better overall team then UMass but I wouldnt say they have the better offense. I would take UDs defense over UMass but I would take UMass's offense over UDs.

[GannonFan]

The big play was the bs pass int call where UD scored a td on the next play. UMass was down 10 at the time and stopped them. Could have gone either way if UMass went down and scored off of that instead of UDs long td run. UD has the better overall team then UMass but I wouldnt say they have the better offense. I would take UDs defense over UMass but I would take UMass's offense over UDs.

Sure, you'd take Havens over Devlin. Take the blinders off, man, you just watched a guy who'll be throwing passes on Sundays. Sometimes you just have to appreciate what's out there.

[umassfan]

Sure, you'd take Havens over Devlin. Take the blinders off, man, you just watched a guy who'll be throwing passes on Sundays. Sometimes you just have to appreciate what's out there.

The only poss delawere is better on offense is the qb. Your rb is good but I'd take two good backs vs one and I'd take both umass wr's & te over what Delaware has to offer.

[GannonFan]

The only poss delawere is better on offense is the qb. Your rb is good but I'd take two good backs vs one and I'd take both umass wr's & te over what Delaware has to offer.

Did you just miss both Hayes and Jackson (UD's #2 and #3 RB's) scoring TD's on Saturday? Heck, Hayes's went for 61 yards, surely you didn't miss that? And the difference in QB is so large that it doesn't really matter who he's throwing to - Devlin just makes people better. No position is more important and while Havens has had a nice year, he pales in comparison to Devlin.

[umassfan]

Did you just miss both Hayes and Jackson (UD's #2 and #3 RB's) scoring TD's on Saturday? Heck, Hayes's went for 61 yards, surely you didn't miss that? And the difference in QB is so large that it doesn't really matter who he's throwing to - Devlin just makes people better. No position is more important and while Havens has had a nice year, he pales in comparison to Devlin.
Havens is the number 3 maybe 2 qb in the caa. Also sure your rbs ran well vs our poor rush d but both our running backs killed your number 1 d. Sorry but that is more impressive. Again umass has the better offense but Delaware has the better team.

[bluehenbillk]

GF - don't waste your breath. I'll agree UMass has a good offense, the #2 in the CAA that I've seen. But as already brought up, Devlin vs Havens?? cmon, Devlin is a lot better. RB's are pretty close. WR's I'd give the nod to UMass. OL's are pretty similar.

I'd give the edge to UD (based just on Devlin), but I'd say the offenses are pretty similar.

[umassfan]

GF - don't waste your breath. I'll agree UMass has a good offense, the #2 in the CAA that I've seen. But as already brought up, Devlin vs Havens?? cmon, Devlin is a lot better. RB's are pretty close. WR's I'd give the nod to UMass. OL's are pretty similar.

I'd give the edge to UD (based just on Devlin), but I'd say the offenses are pretty similar.
The stats dont back up your claim that "Devlin is a lot better". Sorry but 10 games into the season your claim isnt backed up. Do we both know that Devlin will be in the nfl next year and Havens prob not.... yes but if you look at the year Havens is having... He is clearly not A LOT worse then Devlin.

[FcsBest]

I read this thread alot first time poster and I was at the game and I'm not saying that Havens is better than Devlin, but Devlin didn't throw a ball over 8 yards the whole game....

[GannonFan]

I read this thread alot first time poster and I was at the game and I'm not saying that Havens is better than Devlin, but Devlin didn't throw a ball over 8 yards the whole game....

Well, maybe you should wait longer to post your second time because your first time is a swing and a miss - that 31 yard TD pass Devlin threw to Pierce in the 2nd quarter to make it 17-7 was a 31 yard TD pass that hit Pierce at about the 10 yard line - so that's at least 21 yards north and south - longer considering that Devlin rolled to his right before throwing it back to the left sideline. Just one of many that exceeded 8 yards.

Maybe you were in the bathroom or buying concessions at that time????

[GannonFan]

The stats dont back up your claim that "Devlin is a lot better". Sorry but 10 games into the season your claim isnt backed up. Do we both know that Devlin will be in the nfl next year and Havens prob not.... yes but if you look at the year Havens is having... He is clearly not A LOT worse then Devlin.

If you can honestly look at both the QB's play and the passes they throw and you seriously think that Havens is close to Devlin in terms of QB quality then god bless you, just don't become a scout of any kind, not that anyone will be knocking on your door anyway.

[umassfan]

If you can honestly look at both the QB's play and the passes they throw and you seriously think that Havens is close to Devlin in terms of QB quality then god bless you, just don't become a scout of any kind, not that anyone will be knocking on your door anyway.

Okay then I guess he just leads the CAA in passing because he sucks then huh?

[umassfan]

Just want to give you a few stats for what its worth. All delaware fans are all over Joe Flaccos nuts. I will compare stats from his 07 season vs Havens 10 season

Flacco: games 15 eff 144.91 att/comp/ints 331-521-5 comp % 63.5 yards 4263 tds 23 avg/game 284.2

Havens: games 10 eff 144.0 att/comp/ints 194-303-6 comp % 64 yards 2319 tds 18 avg/game 231.9

[bluehenbillk]

So now Havens is better than both Devlin AND Flacco? Is that your argument? I'll say this, I watched the whole game Saturday, Havens is better, much better than he was last year. However, he still misses to many passes. Case in point, UMass ran slant patterns three times that I distinctky remember in the red zone & had the guy(s) open all 3 times & Havens just missed them, not even close, too high or too far in front/behind. A lot of UMass fans complained the game would've been closer if your kicker was on. Your kicker would've been irrelevant if Havens accuracy was better. Devlin's #'s are what they are. He missed 2 games completely & played essentially only half of another when he hurt his wrist. UD has played virtually the whole season in the lead minus a couple mins against W&M & half the JMU game, so it's been run first until the past 2 games. Won't get into drops b/c I'm sure Havens had his share too. The guy is improved, yes he won't be drafted & Devlin will (highly so), but you're getting back to '03 form there umassfan & the "Brandon love"......

[blukeys]

Okay then I guess he just leads the CAA in passing because he sucks then huh?

So you really think Havens would be leading the league in passing if:

1. Devlin had not broken his wrist in the 1st half of the 2nd game of the season?
2. Devlin had not been held out of the 3rd game of the season?
3. Devlin had not been knocked out of the JMU game on the second play of the game?
4. Delaware has not used a vanilla limited passing plan against WCUPA?

You're signature is so correct your really don't do any research before posting.

[umassfan]

So now Havens is better than both Devlin AND Flacco? Is that your argument? I'll say this, I watched the whole game Saturday, Havens is better, much better than he was last year. However, he still misses to many passes. Case in point, UMass ran slant patterns three times that I distinctky remember in the red zone & had the guy(s) open all 3 times & Havens just missed them, not even close, too high or too far in front/behind. A lot of UMass fans complained the game would've been closer if your kicker was on. Your kicker would've been irrelevant if Havens accuracy was better. Devlin's #'s are what they are. He missed 2 games completely & played essentially only half of another when he hurt his wrist. UD has played virtually the whole season in the lead minus a couple mins against W&M & half the JMU game, so it's been run first until the past 2 games. Won't get into drops b/c I'm sure Havens had his share too. The guy is improved, yes he won't be drafted & Devlin will (highly so), but you're getting back to '03 form there umassfan & the "Brandon love"......

I guess you forgot how to read. I stated many times in this thread that I agree Devlin is better but to say he is A LOT better is a strech. Havens numbers back up my claim. I also watched the whole game sat and saw Devlin miss wide open WRs. Guess he sucks too then huh? I was comparing stats with flacco because I know Delawares love for him.

[umassfan]

So you really think Havens would be leading the league in passing if:

1. Devlin had not broken his wrist in the 1st half of the 2nd game of the season?
2. Devlin had not been held out of the 3rd game of the season?
3. Devlin had not been knocked out of the JMU game on the second play of the game?
4. Delaware has not used a vanilla limited passing plan against WCUPA?

You're signature is so correct your really don't do any research before posting.

You are correct... Havens had played a much harder shedule then Devlin... That should only help my claim then hurt it. Breaking his non throwing wrist really hurts Devlins ability to throw... i forgot my bad lol

[MR. CHICKEN]

I read this thread alot first time poster and I was at the game and I'm not saying that Havens is better than Devlin, but Devlin didn't throw a ball over 8 yards the whole game....

OL' PAT.....WAS 16-22 240YARDS..AGIN DUH MINUTEMEN.....NOW ACCORDIN' TA DUH CHICKEN'S ABACUS......HE AVERAGED 15 YDS UH CHUCK.......xchinscratchx.......BRAWK!!

[umassfan]

OL' PAT.....WAS 16-22 240YARDS..AGIN DUH MINUTEMEN.....NOW ACCORDIN' TA DUH CHICKEN'S ABACUS......HE AVERAGED 15 YDS UH CHUCK.......xchinscratchx.......BRAWK!!

Do you not factor in yards after catch? Guess every wr stopped after he caught the ball huh?

[GannonFan]

Okay then I guess he just leads the CAA in passing because he sucks then huh?

Never said Havens sucks, that's your own dementia taking over. And Havens doesn't lead in pass efficiency and once you realize that the stats include Devlin playing 9 games when in fact, he only played 2 snaps of that 9th game (the JMU game) then Devlin and Havens are equal in passing yards per game and Devlin moves ahead of him in total offense per game (since Devlin is actually a pretty good runner to boot). As always, you seem to lack any objectivity when it comes to discussing the Blue Hens. Something about that 25-6 lead for UD in the series is probably part of that.

[umassfan]

Never said Havens sucks, that's your own dementia taking over. And Havens doesn't lead in pass efficiency and once you realize that the stats include Devlin playing 9 games when in fact, he only played 2 snaps of that 9th game (the JMU game) then Devlin and Havens are equal in passing yards per game and Devlin moves ahead of him in total offense per game (since Devlin is actually a pretty good runner to boot). As always, you seem to lack any objectivity when it comes to discussing the Blue Hens. Something about that 25-6 lead for UD in the series is probably part of that.

Again how many times to I need to say this.... I agree that Devlin is a better qb then Havens BUT not A LOT better!!!!!!!!

[MR. CHICKEN]

Do you not factor in yards after catch? Guess every wr stopped after he caught the ball huh?

OURAH TIGHT END HAD UH 31 YARD RECEPTION FO' TD......NOW......LEST YER LB'S & STRONG SAFETY....WERE OVERAH TA DUH GATORADE CONTAINER......AH HAVE UH HARD TIME.......BELIEVIN' DAT TOSS WAS FO' OWN-LAH 8 YDS...xeyebrowx....AWK!

[umassfan]

OURAH TIGHT END HAD UH 31 YARD RECEPTION FO' TD......NOW......LEST YER LB'S & STRONG SAFETY....WERE OVERAH TA DUH GATORADE CONTAINER......AH HAVE UH HARD TIME.......BELIEVIN' DAT TOSS WAS FO' OWN-LAH 8 YDS...xeyebrowx....AWK!

I didnt make the original comment but to say he avg 15 yards per pass when quite a few were long runs after short passes kinda doesnt equate.

[MR. CHICKEN]

AN' AH'M SAYIN'.......OUTTAH 16 PASSES.......FO' 240 YARDS.....AT LEAST ONE...HAD TO BE LONGERAH DAN 8 BIG ONES................YA DIDN'T MAKE DUH ORIGINAL CLAIM...DEN WHAA JUMP IN??......AH'VE SEEN 'NUFF PIGGY TA KNOW.....DUH 240 COUNT...WAS NOT ALL AIR-TIME....xrolleyesx...DOODLE-DOO-DOO!

[umassfan]

AN' AH'M SAYIN'.......OUTTAH 16 PASSES.......FO' 240 YARDS.....AT LEAST ONE...HAD TO BE LONGERAH DAN 8 BIG ONES................YA DIDN'T MAKE DUH ORIGINAL CLAIM...DEN WHAA JUMP IN??......AH'VE SEEN 'NUFF PIGGY TA KNOW.....DUH 240 COUNT...WAS NOT ALL AIR-TIME....xrolleyesx...DOODLE-DOO-DOO!

As someone else stated and for what I recall... only one pass comes to mind over the 8-10 yard range. I could be wrong but he didnt seem to strech the field much.

[Ud1Hens]

Why throw it deep just to throw it deep? If you are absolutely dominating with a precision passing game why go away from it? The "short" passing game works so well with a QB like Devlin because he puts the ball right in the WR's stride so he can turn a 8-10 yd pass into a much longer gain. Without an accurate QB you can't get YAC.

[Oldhen]

Well, about the 'eight yard' thing... Devlin takes the snaps, but he doesn't draw up the plays or the game plan. UD attacks underneath coverage when the defensive scheme dictates it. What Devlin does very well at those times is progress thru his reads, find the open guy and accurately pull the trigger before the defense can close. This permits YAC, and not every QB can get the ball out there that quickly and accurately. (He does this much better than Flacco did, whose big weapon was always the deep out.)

Not stretching the field vertically as a regular part of the passing scheme is much more about the WR's than Devlin. We just don't have the kind of home-run threats we'd like to. Mostly big, possession guys who can get open, but aren't going to outrun too many DB's.

All that said, Devlin throws a nice deep ball with great touch... you just don't get to see it much. Doesn't have Flacco's arm strength, but is more accurate. His big strength is making an accurate, quick-release throw to the right guy. That's why the scouts like him.

[Fear the Bird]

Again how many times to I need to say this.... I agree that Devlin is a better qb then Havens BUT not A LOT better!!!!!!!!

That is also delusional - that's like saying Vick looked better than McNabb last night but not a lot better

[umassfan]

That is also delusional - that's like saying Vick looked better than McNabb last night but not a lot better

Your on crack... lay off the pipe.

[Fear the Bird]

Your on crack... lay off the pipe.

Now that the pipe is down, was Flacco not THAT much better than Liam Coen?

[umassfan]

Now that the pipe is down, was Flacco not THAT much better than Liam Coen?

Depends on the year you speak of. Coens Sr year was by far not his best season.


Back to Havens... Didnt he just throw for 4 tds vs the number 1 FCS D... A D that only gave up 8 tds all season? Hmmm guess that QB is no good.

[Nebuta]

I read this thread alot first time poster and I was at the game and I'm not saying that Havens is better than Devlin, but Devlin didn't throw a ball over 8 yards the whole game....


I watched the game and Devlin did throw the ball over 8 yards. Remember the play after the horrid snap. Devlin rolled right and hit a wide open AP down the left sideline that throw had to be 30+ yards.

[Fear the Bird]

Depends on the year you speak of. Coens Sr year was by far not his best season.


Back to Havens... Didnt he just throw for 4 tds vs the number 1 FCS D... A D that only gave up 8 tds all season? Hmmm guess that QB is no good.

Well I would probably give credit to John Griffin for at least one of those TD passes but yes he sure did

Bro - nobody is discounting Havens - he is a solid player, but Devlin is on another level and will be following Flacco to play on Sundays someday. No offense to Kyle, but he has a better shot at being a QB coach at an Ivy league school than playing on Sundays...

[Ud1Hens]

Depends on the year you speak of. Coens Sr year was by far not his best season.


Back to Havens... Didnt he just throw for 4 tds vs the number 1 FCS D... A D that only gave up 8 tds all season? Hmmm guess that QB is no good.

Umass was the best offense that UD faced, heck your offense took it to Michigan. Not discounting Umass whatsoever, and I expect them to put up a ton of points in the FCS playoffs. If you play that efficient vs a lesser D you'd put up 40+ easily. If I were you I'd be excited about that rather than a Devlin v. Havens debate

[umassfan]

Well I would probably give credit to John Griffin for at least one of those TD passes but yes he sure did

Bro - nobody is discounting Havens - he is a solid player, but Devlin is on another level and will be following Flacco to play on Sundays someday. No offense to Kyle, but he has a better shot at being a QB coach at an Ivy league school than playing on Sundays...

And I dont disagree but when you talk about FCS QBs for running an offense and which offense you would rather... UMass has by far the better offense in every area besides the QB poss. UMass has the two top WRs in yards per game. Have the 2nd and 3rd RB.... also have a freshman te who has been a great asset the second half of this season(made a one handed catch vs UD for a td). Also our OLine is great as well. Every area you would give the edge to UMass except QB. The QB is important but not the whole offense. Edge overall still goes to UMass.

[GannonFan]

And I dont disagree but when you talk about FCS QBs for running an offense and which offense you would rather... UMass has by far the better offense in every area besides the QB poss. UMass has the two top WRs in yards per game. Have the 2nd and 3rd RB.... also have a freshman te who has been a great asset the second half of this season(made a one handed catch vs UD for a td). Also our OLine is great as well. Every area you would give the edge to UMass except QB. The QB is important but not the whole offense. Edge overall still goes to UMass.

So you're offense can be "by far" in every other aspect that UD's but you fly off the handle when someone says that Devlin is "a lot" better than Havens? Whatever meds you're on, buddy, they ain't working. :)

[umassfan]

So you're offense can be "by far" in every other aspect that UD's but you fly off the handle when someone says that Devlin is "a lot" better than Havens? Whatever meds you're on, buddy, they ain't working. :)

Does Delaware even have 1 WR in the top 10 in yards for the CAA?

[GannonFan]

Does Delaware even have 1 WR in the top 10 in yards for the CAA?

Nope - Devlin can see the whole field. xlolx

[Ud1Hens]

I care about game results, regardless of how much better Umass was position by position than Delaware it equaled an 18 point loss at home.

Adding to Gannonfan's point...in 4 games 7 WRs for UD caught a pass, in 4 other games 8 WRs caught a pass and in 1 game 11 WRs caught a pass...that's getting a lot of production from mutliple players. Thaxton and Jones are the only home run threats because of their speed, White is the most sure handed, the rest are move the sticks type players.

[umassfan]

I care about game results, regardless of how much better Umass was position by position than Delaware it equaled an 18 point loss at home.

Adding to Gannonfan's point...in 4 games 7 WRs for UD caught a pass, in 4 other games 8 WRs caught a pass and in 1 game 11 WRs caught a pass...that's getting a lot of production from mutliple players. Thaxton and Jones are the only home run threats because of their speed, White is the most sure handed, the rest are move the sticks type players.

Yes but the difference in the game was Delawares D. UMass does not have a D close to what Delawere have this season. Our Lbers are the only exp on D. It shouldnt be hard for Delvin to pick apart two freshman CBs(one true one redshirt).

[bleedblue]

It's funny. This guy "umassfan" and I went back and forth on who was the better QB, Flacco or Cohen. While he did finally say Flacco was better he said not as much as everyone thinks. He is right though about their Offense, less Havens. I would take Hernandez an Griffen over Pierce and Hayes. I would also take their top 2 WR's over ours as well as their TE. BUT Havens is not close to Devlin and nor was Cohen close to Flacco.

[Maroon&White]

His name is Coen. Like many people do, UD fans are looking at how these QBs compare for the NFL. Flacco and Devlin are NFL type QBs. Coen and Havens are not. That does not mean Flacco and Devlin were/are better than Coen and Havens. It simply means they have the skills and attributes that NFL teams want. The stats show that Coen and Havens are just as good. In fact, Coen is the 3rd leading passer in total yards and touchdown passes. UD fans want to point to the success of Flacco and the prospects of Devlin in the NFL. Unfortunately, this is not the NFL, it's college football and Havens and Coen are/were just as good if not better then Devlin and Flacco in college.

[YoUDeeMan]

Coen choked in big games. He actually lost you some games you could have won. xnodx

[Oldhen]

His name is Coen. Like many people do, UD fans are looking at how these QBs compare for the NFL. Flacco and Devlin are NFL type QBs. Coen and Havens are not. That does not mean Flacco and Devlin were/are better than Coen and Havens. It simply means they have the skills and attributes that NFL teams want. The stats show that Coen and Havens are just as good. In fact, Coen is the 3rd leading passer in total yards and touchdown passes. UD fans want to point to the success of Flacco and the prospects of Devlin in the NFL. Unfortunately, this is not the NFL, it's college football and Havens and Coen are/were just as good if not better then Devlin and Flacco in college.

I actually agree with this. Cases in point are myriad, but Ricky Santos comes to mind. Lord knows I'd take his clone in a heartbeat.

...that said, I'm glad we have Devlin. I liked both Coen and Havens. I'd still take Flacco and Devlin over them.

Maybe I'm just a homer.

[umassfan]

I actually agree with this. Cases in point are myriad, but Ricky Santos comes to mind. Lord knows I'd take his clone in a heartbeat.

...that said, I'm glad we have Devlin. I liked both Coen and Havens. I'd still take Flacco and Devlin over them.

Maybe I'm just a homer.

Personally I dont think you could go wrong in any case with those 4 QBs.

[umassfan]

Coen choked in big games. He actually lost you some games you could have won. xnodx

Coen had the best 4 year strech for UMass football as a QB. No one in our history has done better. Next year we prob will be starting a redshirt freshman who is the highest rated QB UMass has ever had. Could be interesting the next 4 years in Amherst.

[UncleSam]

Coen was UMass' Donovan McNabb, good but never as good as advertised.

[umassfan]

Coen was UMass' Donovan McNabb, good but never as good as advertised.

I wouldnt go quite that far... He holds nearly every UMass passing record for a season and career.

[caribbeanhen]

6 pages of Devlin vs Havens in a thread about Delaware Defense - Umassfan I give you credit for slinging enough BS to stretch this thread that far. Devlin is the type of QB that champions are made of, as for Havens, he has Devlin like flashes but often reverts to Havens

[Mr. C]

Well, this thread started as something about Delaware's defense and got highjacked into an argument about QBs.

Before weighing in on the QBs, here is my take on Delaware's defense. The Blue Hens probably have as good a secondary as anyone in FCS. All four starters are exceptional and they are dangerous from the standpoint of creating turnovers. The LBs are also good. The DL holds its own, but doesn't have to be big-play guys with the guys behind them.

On the subject of quarterbacks, the question I like to pose is if two guys were competing for the same job, who would be the starter? I asked this last year when people were making such a big deal of Richmond's Eric Ward, who would have been a backup on MANY of the other CAA teams. While Havens has improved a bunch from this season after being one of the worst starting QBs in the CAA last year, he wouldn't stand a chance of beating out Devlin head-to-head. He also wouldn't start at Villanova over Chris Whitney and probably wouldn't start ahead of R.J. Toman of UNH either.

Devlin, in many expert opinions, has as much talent as any QB in FCS and definitely is the top-ranked pro prospect at QB in FCS this season. In my 30-plus-years of working in college football, Devlin is one of the best QBs I've seen for delivering the ball with touch. He is also a fine leader, is smart and comes across as a very nice, young man. The post directly above this one is right on the mark that, while Devlin doesn't match Joe Flacco's arm strength, he does have more accuracy and also has a nice, quick release.

[Maroon&White]

Devlin, in many expert opinions, has as much talent as any QB in FCS and definitely is the top-ranked pro prospect at QB in FCS this season. In my 30-plus-years of working in college football, Devlin is one of the best QBs I've seen for delivering the ball with touch. He is also a fine leader, is smart and comes across as a very nice, young man. The post directly above this one is right on the mark that, while Devlin doesn't match Joe Flacco's arm strength, he does have more accuracy and also has a nice, quick release.

Thank you for an example of exactly what I was talking about. This is talking about his strengths for the NFL, as you said in the first sentence. That doesn't matter when talking about who is better IN COLLEGE.

You simply don't know who would start if the QBs were competing for the same job. It is impossible to tell. The QBs know their system and were brought in to run that system.

[Mr. C]

Thank you for an example of exactly what I was talking about. This is talking about his strengths for the NFL, as you said in the first sentence. That doesn't matter when talking about who is better IN COLLEGE.

You simply don't know who would start if the QBs were competing for the same job. It is impossible to tell. The QBs know their system and were brought in to run that system.
I have evaluated talent for over 30 years and I also have regular conversations with coaches and scouts about such things. I think I have a very good idea on who would start where. Not impossible to tell at all. There is a reason that Devlin was starting at one point at Penn State. It is about talent, not systems. Devlin could fit in easily to the UMass system. The same skills that will help Devlin at the NFL level are also the skills that make him successful as a college player. Your argument is totally bogus. I guarantee you that Kevin Morris would take Devlin and start him in a heartbeat.

[Maroon&White]

My argument is not at all bogus. You also continue to make my point that people like you look at what a player will do in the NFL to say how good a college player they are. Being a NFL prospect does not mean you are better in college than someone who is not.

[blukeys]

Thank you for an example of exactly what I was talking about. This is talking about his strengths for the NFL, as you said in the first sentence. That doesn't matter when talking about who is better IN COLLEGE.

You simply don't know who would start if the QBs were competing for the same job. It is impossible to tell. The QBs know their system and were brought in to run that system.

Nice job of only taking one paragraph of a multi paragraph post and selectively editing to respond to a straw man.

Mr. C's main point was in evaluating QB's for college play. His last paragraph was just further evidence offered by his ability to get access to experts in the field. Yet you chose the supporting paragraph, his last as a means to advance your argument.

One can know who would start between two separate QB's IF you know what you are talking about. Anyone who watched Eric Sanders of UNI vs. Joe Flacco of Delaware in 2007 knows that if the 2 were competing on the same team for a starting job that Flacco would be the choice.

Your argument about different systems holds no water. Delaware and Umass don't run that vastly a different offense. Neither team is Wofford.

[Maroon&White]

Nice job of only taking one paragraph of a multi paragraph post and selectively editing to respond to a straw man.

Mr. C's main point was in evaluating QB's for college play. His last paragraph was just further evidence offered by his ability to get access to experts in the field. Yet you chose the supporting paragraph, his last as a means to advance your argument.


His other paragraphs were his opinion that Havens isn't as good as Devlin, Whitney and Toman, and talking about the UD secondary. No selective editing there. When his last paragraph begins by saying Devlin is one of the "top-ranked pro prospects" and then goes on to describe his play, it is not about evaluating QB's for college play. It's for NFL play. Of course with his writing skills it might not have been what he meant to say.

About different systems, depends on how you view it. When he said if Havens was at Villanova or at UNH competing against Whitney and Toman for a job, I take that to mean he's competing with guys who have been in the system for years and know how to run it. A new guy has to learn the system from scratch, of course the incumbent should win the job.

[blukeys]

His other paragraphs were his opinion that Havens isn't as good as Devlin, Whitney and Toman, and talking about the UD secondary. No selective editing there. When his last paragraph begins by saying Devlin is one of the "top-ranked pro prospects" and then goes on to describe his play, it is not about evaluating QB's for college play. It's for NFL play. Of course with his writing skills it might not have been what he meant to say.

About different systems, depends on how you view it. When he said if Havens was at Villanova or at UNH competing against Whitney and Toman for a job, I take that to mean he's competing with guys who have been in the system for years and know how to run it. A new guy has to learn the system from scratch, of course the incumbent should win the job.

Well you are making one heck of an assumption on that!!!!!


A more reasonable assumption would be that Mr. C is Placing both Qbacks in an equitable situation of starting from scratch with a respective team. In this I happen to agree with him. I would take Toman and Whitney over Havens any day.

In fact I really wish we were facing Havens on Saturday instead of Whitney.

[umassfan]

All I have to say is Matt Leinart..........

[umassfan]

In fact I really wish we were facing Havens on Saturday instead of Whitney.

Havens killed your defense for 4 passing tds... Lets see wha Whitney does. Id put money on saying he doesnt get 4 tds.

[GunsAndGuitars]

How does the UD defense compare to the defense of the team that lost to ASU in the national championship and how is it different? That's the question I have.

[caribbeanhen]

The post directly above this one is right on the mark that.

welcome to the Caribbean Mr. C

[bluehenbillk]

How does the UD defense compare to the defense of the team that lost to ASU in the national championship and how is it different? That's the question I have.

Much better, the '07 edition of our defense was suspect all year, not up to what we were making deep playoff runs in both '00 or '03. In a nutshell, UD's back 7 is tremendous, there are 3 DB's (Walters, Bratton & Grant) that are All-American/All-Conference caliber. The LB's have been very good too. The DL is probably average, they do a half-decent job with defending the run & getting some pressure, but nothing extraordinary. You have to be a two-trick pony to have any success against UD. If you're just a run-dominant team or a pass-dominant team they'll take that away from you. The only 2 teams to have any kinda offensive success have been UMass really with W&M to a lesser extent.

[UncleSam]

Whitney's ability to make plays with his feet, not his arm is what worries me most.

[bluehenbillk]

Whitney's ability to make plays with his feet, not his arm is what worries me most.

I agree, I said it on another thread, if Whitney has 30+ passes this Saturday the game isn't close.

[Nebuta]

Much better, the '07 edition of our defense was suspect all year, not up to what we were making deep playoff runs in both '00 or '03. In a nutshell, UD's back 7 is tremendous, there are 3 DB's (Walters, Bratton & Grant) that are All-American/All-Conference caliber. The LB's have been very good too. The DL is probably average, they do a half-decent job with defending the run & getting some pressure, but nothing extraordinary. You have to be a two-trick pony to have any success against UD. If you're just a run-dominant team or a pass-dominant team they'll take that away from you. The only 2 teams to have any kinda offensive success have been UMass really with W&M to a lesser extent.

I would agree. 2010 defense is no 03' but better then the 07' hens D. The offense had to win some shootouts cause the defense just couldnt make a stop. Good example would be the never-ending game in Newark against the Spiders (5-6 OTs) where over 120+ points was amassed.

[blukeys]

Whitney's ability to make plays with his feet, not his arm is what worries me most.

Don't try and convince umassfan. His disclaimer is spot on.

[Oldhen]

I would agree. 2010 defense is no 03' but better then the 07' hens D.

I've always said the '03 D that started in the playoffs was the most talented eleven we ever put on the field on either side of the ball (but not the best D I've seen at UD... that goes to the '71- team.. '71 only gave up 500 yards rushing all year...) Thought I'd give you some numbers for comparison.

2003 Defense: Total D-303yrds; Scoring D-15/gm; Pass D-188/gm; Rush D-114/gm; TO's-+1.19; Pass Eff D-113.4; Sacks-41; Red Zone D-63%; 3rd D D-36%, Picks-16.

2010 D: Total D-265; Scoring D-10/gm; Pass D-162/gm; Rush D-102/gm; TO's-+1.3; Pass Eff D-95.9; Sacks-10; Red Zone D-58%; 3rd D D-29%; Picks-16.

By every per-game metric but one, the '10 D is ahead of that NC '03 unit I think so highly of... the sack numbers, however, are just stunningly different.